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The original documents are located in Box 51, folder "1975/09/16 - President, Vice President and Jim Lynn" of the James M. Cannon Files at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library. Copyright Notice The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Gerald Ford donated to the United States of America his copyrights in all of his unpublished writings in National Archives collections. Works prepared by U.S. Government employees as part of their official duties are in the public domain. The copyrights to materials written by other individuals or organizations are presumed to remain with them. If you think any of the information displayed in the PDF is subject to a valid copyright claim, please contact the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library. Digitized from Box 51 of the James M. Cannon Files at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT VICE PRESIDENT AND MR. LYNN Tuesday, September 16, 1975 2:30 p.m. Oval Office THE VICE PRESIDENT WASHINGTON September 10, 1975 MEMORANDUM FOR: THE PRESIDENT THE VICE PRESIDENT har FROM: SUBJECT: Public Forums on Domestic Policy Attached is the plan for conducting the Public Forums on Domestic Policy, administered by the Domestic Council. The plan proposes: One-day meetings in six cities with specific dates and locations listed. (Four. additional cities optional.) At each Forum, a three-hour morning session would be held with the Vice President chairing. Following the morning session, the participants would divide into four groups along the following major policy areas: Social Programs Jobs and the Economy Resources and the Environment Community Development, Transportation, and Housing Testimony from solicited persons representing a broad cross-section of opinion and interests. The Forums be announced by the President and the Vice President following a Domestic Council meeting during the week of September 22. Attachment THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON September 10, 1975 MEMORANDUM FOR: VICE PRESIDENT FROM: JAMES M. CANNON SUBJECT: Public Forums on Domestic Policy I. OBJECTIVES To conduct a series of six or more meetings, geograph- ically distributed, to: Outline what the nation is facing with regard to Domestic Programs; Obtain public input in the development of Presidential options; Assist the President in formulating his legis- lative recommendations and initiatives to the Congress in the 1975 State of the Union message. II. FORUM FORMAT Each Forum will be a one-day meeting, consisting of the following elements: A. A morning session of approximately three hours would be chaired by the Vice President with Cabinet members and other Federal officials participating. The Vice President would open with introductions and brief remarks. The balance of the morning would be divided into time for a discussion of four major domestic policy areas. Two or three witnesses would be asked to present five-minute testimony on issues relating to social programs, the economy, resources, and subjects of interest to the area such as housing, transportation, etc. Following the presentation of testimony for each segment, the witnesses could be questioned by the Vice President and Federal officials. A portion of the time could also be made available for public participation. - 2 - B. Following the morning session, four separate, simultaneous meetings would be held to continue the discussion of the four major policy areas. These would involve: 1. A Cabinet level official would serve as chairman and would be backed up by rep- sentatives from appropriate Federal agencies, including the Domestic Council. 2. Selected individuals, representing a cross section of interests and opinion, would present testimony on pre-determined subjects. Each witness would be allowed up to five minutes for testimony, or to summarize a more comprehensive statement. 3. Total seating for each of the four meetings will be approximately 125 persons. Fifty to seventy-five seats will be reserved for the witnesses and support personnel; the remainder will be available to the general public on a first-come, first-served basis. 4. Vice President will rotate among the four meetings, dividing his time equally. 5. Opportunity for submission of written statements from the public. 6. An informal buffet luncheon for the Federal officials, invited participants, and selected State and local officials, hosted by the Cabinet member who would be serving as chairman, could begin the afternoon sessions. III. DATES AND LOCATIONS Tuesday, October 21 Denver, Colorado* Tuesday, October 28 Kansas City, Mo. * Tuesday, November 11 Austin, Texas Tuesday, November 18 Philadelphia, Pa. * Monday, December 1 Nashville, Tennessee Tuesday, December 9 Los Angeles or Sacramento, California * Locations of Federal Regional Offices - 3 - Possible additional cities (dates not currently available in Vice President's schedule): Tampa/St. Petersburg, Florida Springfield, Illinois Hartford, Connecticut Albuquerque, New Mexico NOTE: The Vice President should not be scheduled to participate in any political activities in conjunction with the Forums. IV. CONFERENCE ISSUES The Forums will focus on four major domestic policy areas: Social Programs (welfare, health, etc.) Jobs and the Economy (manpower programs, inflation, etc.) Resources and the Environment (raw materials, agriculture, etc.) Community Development, Transportation, and Housing The issues could vary according to regional interests. Under each general policy area specific issues will receive focus through the scheduling of witnesses. For example, welfare reform can be a discussion issue through scheduling witnesses concerned with that subject for a block of time; the same with health care, etc. V. PARTICIPANT SELECTION (WITNESSES) Participants will be selected from recommendations received from: State and local officials; labor, business, consumer groups and similar key constit- uencies; local Federal officials (Regional Offices) ; White House lists. Congressional recommendations, though not solicited, will also be considered. A limited number of witnesses will come from State and local governments in the region covered by each Forum. Members of Congress from the region covered by the Forum will be briefed on the purpose and plans of the Forum by the Congressional Liaison office. Although not specifically invited to the Forum, Members will be welcome to attend, as observers, and will receive appropriate introductions. - 4 - VI. ANNOUNCEMENT STRATEGY A. During the week of September 22, the Congressional leadership should be briefed at a session with the President. B. During the same week, the President would call a meeting of the Domestic Council, at which time he describes the program. Immediately following the meeting, the President and Vice President should adjourn to the press room. The President would announce his decision to direct that the hearings be held. The Vice President would brief the press about the purpose and scope of the hearings. C. It is important that a distinction be made between the Public Forums on Domestic Policy and the White House Conferences on Domestic and Economic Policy. In order to avoid confusion, it is recommended that the White House conferences be suspended during the period when the Forums are scheduled. D. Cooperation from the departments and agencies represented on the Domestic Council to provide personnel and financial resources for these Forums is essential. It will be necessary to utilize Regional Office personnel in the cities where the Forums will be held. CV treep for New SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ADVISORY APPARATUS Summary House. Teague Mosher bill introduced on July 30 was scheduled for markup on September 8 but this has been delayed until October 8 because of Teague's illness and press of other business. It's conceivable that the Committee could take it up on September 24 if we considered it important and the President or Vice President wished to telephone Teague and Mosher to urge prompt action. Even if we do not want to press for earlier action, a call from the Vice President would be helpful to keep attention focused. I have reviewed the bill with Drs. Stever, Mark, Ramo and Baker and staff of OMB, NSC and the Vice President's office and met with Phil Yeager for a preliminary staff level discussion of the bill. My assessment is that the Administration could live with the bill as now written, if necessary, but that we can and should work to get some changes discussed below. Senate. Staff of the three Committees with jurisdiction (Commerce, Aeronautical and Space Sciences, Labor & Welfare) are meeting but have not agreed on a course of action. Probably will not act until the House completes action. Commerce and Moss Committee are likely to favor prompt action, largely accepting House bill. Kennedy may want to press for hearings and for expansion of the bill. Details The new Teague-Mosher bill (H.R. 9058) has three principal titles: Title I - declares a national policy on science and technology. Title II - creates an Office of Science and Technology policy as proposed by the President, with three exceptions. - 2 - The Director would be subject to Senate confirmation. The President would have the discretion of appointing up to four assistant directors. (This is designed to allow this and succeeding presidents to structure the office as they prefer; e.g., Director and a deputy; a 3 or 5-man council) The functions of the office are spelled out in more detail. Title III - calls for appointment by the President of a Committee of 5 to 12 members for a full survey of Federal science and technology policies, program and organization and submission of a report within 15 months to the President and the Congress. Assessment Title I: - It is undesirable to have a science and technology policy in law but, with a few changes it will be a rather harmless statement. The House Committee will insist on having a policy statement. Title II. We should: - Accept the idea of Senate confirmation for the Director. - Accept the idea of discretionary authority for appointing as many as four assistant directors at Level III. - Accept the idea of great specificity of functions but seek wording changes to avoid too much specificity (e.g., on role in budget formulation). Title III. - As a preferred option, we should favor deletion of the Survey Committee but recognize that the Teague Committee will insist on its retention. - As a fall back position, seek changes which make the Survey Committee less independent and duplica- tive; specifically: all the Director of OSTP to serve also as chairman of the Survey Committee. have the Committee report to the President and give him time to evaluate the report before transmitting it with recommendations to the Congress. clarify its scope. THE WHITE HOUSE ACTION WASHINGTON September 15, 1975 MEMORANDUM FOR: THE PRESIDENT FROM: JIM CANNON SUBJECT: Administration Position on Federal Role in Health Professions Education This is to present for your decision the issue of the Federal role in the education of health professionals. The position of the Administration needs to be decided before HEW testifies tomorrow before the Senate. Attached at Tab A is a memorandum from Jim Lynn and at Tab B a memorandum from Secretary Mathews presenting the position of each. ISSUE The broad issue is how to approach the problems of geographic and specialty maldistribution of health professionals. The issue focuses in particular on the question: Should the Administration propose to continue Federal formula grant support (capitation) limited to medical and dental schools? A related matter is also brought to your attention: Should the Administration propose a new student loan program for medical and dental students? This issue is not pressing and can await, if you so decide, further development of the specific proposals before a position is taken. BACKGROUND Your '76 budget proposes: -- an elimination of construction grants for medical schools --- a gradual four year phase-out of capitation grants -- an increase in special project grants -- an expansion of medical student scholarship assistance tied to repayment through Federal service - 2 - These are proposals which have been advocated by the Admin- istration for the last three years. Congress has shown no inclination to accept this approach. On two previous occasions you have decided to maintain this Administration stance. HEW argues that the only way the Administration can play a role in shaping the legislation currently moving on the Hill is to recognize that some capitation program will evolve and to work toward developing a compromise measure. A. Capitation Issue Should the Administration proposed to continue capitation grants but only for medical and dental schools? -- Administration would maintain position that capitation for pharmacists, veterinarians, optometrists and podiatrists should be phased out. Arguments for Capitation 1. Capitation, as proposed by HEW, would be provided only to those medical and dental schools agreeing to the national goals of: -- maintaining enrollment levels, -- increasing output of primary health care skills, -- improving a geographic distribution of graduates. 2. Restricting capitation to medical and dental schools would permit reductions in Federal funding while allowing targeting on those schools whose training is the longest, most expensive, and least responsive to normal market forces. 3. Capitation would help assure that tuition charges do not rise to levels that would discourage low and middle income students from seeking medical and dental careers. Arguments for Maintaining Opposition to any Capitation 1. Health profession students should not be singled out for capitation grant subsidies not available in other fields of higher education, especially in view of health professionals' substantially higher career income prospects. - 3 - 2. Capitation subsidies, as formula allocations, do not focus Federal assistance on program merit or financial need. 0. The proposed phase-out of capitation would only require tuition increases of $400 annually over the next four years, if schools seek to replace the capitation re- duction with tuition increases. 4. A limited Federal role is appropriate because -- while there is consensus on the existence of maldistribution -- there is no agreement on its extent or on the ways to address the problem. B. Student Assistance Issue Should the Administration propose a new loan program for medical and dental students? Such a loan program would be funded "off-the-budget." Loan repayment would be made over a 20-year period based upon professional income. Arguments for a New Loan Program 1. Estimated total 4-year costs -- including living expenses -- to medical and dental students are between $30,000 and $40,000. Medical and dental students need additional sources of financing for these costs. 2. The current Federal guaranteed student loan program is inadequate not simply because the loan guarantee limit of $10,000 is too low, but also because banks are unwilling to consistently make individual loans to students of $30,000 to $40,000. Repayment pressures may lead graduates into high paying specialties rather than primary care. Arguments Against a New Loan Program 1. While an income-related loan program may be a good idea, the specifics of such a proposal should be fully worked out before the Administration makes a commitment to it. - 4 - 2. Congress and the Administration have generally opposed off-the-budget financing of Federal programs. 3. No current evidence supports a conclusion that there is a significant number of medical or dental students or applicants foregoing an education because of inability to obtain financing. 4. Federal scholarship student assistance should be tied to a service commitment. For other students who seek Federal support, but do not wish to commit themselves to meeting Federal objectives, assistance should be limited to Federal loan guarantees. 5. An income-related loan repayment program is a complex issue with implications for the Federal responsibility in higher education generally and therefore should not be considered apart from other HEW higher education loan proposals. RECOMMENDATIONS OMB is arguing that capitation should continue to be phased out and that the needs of medical students should be considered as part of the overall Federal approach to higher education student loan programs. Secretary Mathews maintains that Congress will continue capitation programs and therefore if we persist in our current position, we will play no role in the eventual outcome which is likely to be an extension or expansion of the existing program. I believe that given the history of Congressional action on the Administration's position we should seek the most effective use of capitation and therefore I recommend support of HEW's capitation proposal. Action on the student assistance recommendations should await further development of specific elements of the various proposals. - 5 - DECISION Capitation Subsidies Option 1: Continue capitation for medical and dental schools that agree to participate in geographic and specialty distribution initiatives. APPROVE DISAPPROVE (Cannon, Mathews, Buchen) Option 2: Phase-out capitation subsidies over a 4-year period. Meet geographic and specialty mal- distribution through special projects and scholarships. APPROVE DISAPPROVE (Lynn, Friedersdorf, Greenspan) Student Assistance Option 1: Establish a new off-the-budget loan program for medical and dental students. APPROVE DISAPPROVE (Mathews) Option 2: Consider a new income-related loan repayment program as part of a comprehensive review of Federal education loan programs in the context of developing the 1977 budget. APPROVE DISAPPROVE (Cannon, Lynn, Buchen, Friedersdorf, Greenspan) THE VICE PRESIDENT WASHINGTON AGENDA FOR THE MEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT Tuesday, September 16, 1975 1. Impressions from the London trip 2. Energy Independence Authority, and the Importance of its Relationship to -- jobs; -- stimulating the economy. 3. CIA - Jim Connor's request to prepare a final TAB A decision memo on Presidential actions relating to the intelligence community; 4. Office of Science and Technology Policy TAB B 5. Domestic Council Hearings -- anticipating a major overhaul of social programs, that will enable the nation to meet human needs on a basis of fiscal integrity, -- while eliminating red-tape and bureaucratic repetition; - 2 - 6. Bicentennial Speech Ideas -- idea for a series of Presidential TAB C Bicentennial speeches on key subjects, that could ultimately be published in book form sometime next year; -- a sample speech -- on "The Role of TAB D Philanthropy in Our History" U THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON September 16, 1975 ADMINISTRATIVELY CONFIDENTIAL MEMORANDUM FOR: JIM CANNON JIM LYNN FROM: JIM CONNOR Jrl SUBJECT: Administration Position on Federal Role in Health Professions Education The President reviewed the recommendations submitted to him yesterday on the above subject and approved the following: Capitation Subsidies Option 1: Continue capitation for medical and dental schools that agree to participate in geographic and specialty distribution initiatives. Student Assistance Option 2: Consider a new income-related loan repayment program as part of a comprehensive review of Federal education loan programs in the context of developing the 1977 budget. Please follow-up with appropriate action. cc: Don Rumsfeld THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON September 16, 1975 WEEKLY DOMESTIC ACTIVITIES REPORT FOR THE PRESIDENT 1. Domestic Council Hearings We are making arrangements for the Domestic Council hearings and believe it is time for you to make a formal announcement to the White House Press Corps. We understand you plan to discuss the hearings at tomorrow's Cabinet meeting and express your desire to have members of the Cabinet participate personally in the hearings. We also think it would be appropriate if you would go down to the Press Briefing Room after the Cabinet meeting to announce the hearings and ask the Vice President to describe what they are designed to achieve. 2. Key Facts on Domestic Issues We have our staff at work developing draft positions, based on your statements, on some 60 domestic issues, from busing to welfare reform. Once the drafts are complete, we will circulate them to your senior staff for their review and then to you for your approval. The purpose is to provide your senior staff and members of the Cabinet with a ready reference on your positions on issues for their review prior to their press conferences and public appearances. Once we complete this set of positions, we will continue to update them and to add new items as issues develop. 3. Office of Science and Technology The Teague-Mosher Bill as introduced on July 30 will probably be marked up October 8. We probably could live with the bill as now drafted it necessary, but we are working to get some changes. The Senate's 2 posture at this point is to wait until the House completes action before moving. Senators Moss and Magnuson say they want prompt action and will probably accept most of the House bill. Kennedy may press for public hearings and expansion of the House bill. 4. Development of State of the Union Options Our meetings with members of the Cabinet to solicit their ideas and views for next year are producing some warmed-over ideas, but some new suggestions. We met last week with the Attorney General and Secretary Mathews. We meet this week with Secretary Hills and next week with Secretary Simon. That leaves five to go--FEA, CEA, CEQ, VA, and ACTION. 5. Auto Emissions Bill Seidman and I met individually with representatives of the auto companies to get their views on suspending tighter controls. In brief: a. An early decision by Congress is quite important to all four. b. A two-year suspension would be of marginal benefit to GM and Ford, because both have already made major investments in developing ways to reach the standards for the 1977 and 1978 model years. But American Motors is so hard pressed that any suspension would help them. C. All made a good case that a three-year suspension is sound economically and environmentally. d. Several suggested a new approach: That Congress not legislate arbitrary mandatory standards, but direct that emission standards be set annually, four or five years in advance, by a group of government agencies that might include FEA, EPA, HEW and the National Science Foundation. Congress, under their plan, would retain veto power over the results. 3 6. Busing Senator Henry Bellmon has suggested to Dick Parsons and me that the Administration create a small information unit of Justice and HEW officials who could, upon request, inform a school board or a Federal judge about ways other school districts have used to bring about an orderly desegregation of a school system. Bellmon's idea came from the experience of Tulsa and Oklahoma City, one of which desegregated with few problems, the other with big problems. Bellmon believes that many judges and school officials are inexperienced and have no place to go to find out how other school districts made it work. If you feel Bellmon's idea could be helpful, I will take it up with the Attorney General and Secretary Mathews. 7. Southern Governors Both Senator Mansfield and Al Ullman made a poor impression on most of the 15 Southern governors. Mansfield expressed great pessimism about the free enterprise system being able to meet problems, and Ullman made a speech SO partisan as to be embarrasing to most of his fellow Democrats. Several Democratic governors mentioned to me later that, with the present Congressional leadership, they have little hope that Congress will do anything about energy or the economy. time THE WHITE HOUSE WASHINGTON WMY September 16, 1975 WEEKLY DOMESTIC ACTIVITIES REPORT FOR THE PRESIDENT 1. Domestic Council Hearings We are making arrangements for the Domestic Council hearings and believe it is time for you to make a formal announcement to the White House Press Corps. We understand you plan to discuss the hearings at tomorrow's Cabinet meeting and express your desire to have members of the Cabinet participate personally in the hearings. We also think it would be appropriate if you would go down to the Press Briefing Room after the Cabinet meeting to announce the hearings and ask the Vice President to describe what they are designed to achieve. 2. Key Facts on Domestic Issues We have our staff at work developing draft positions, based on your statements, on some 60 domestic issues, from busing to welfare reform. Once the drafts are complete, we will circulate them to your senior staff for their review and then to you for your approval. The purpose is to provide your senior staff and members of the Cabinet with a ready reference on your positions on issues for their review prior to their press conferences and public appearances. Once we complete this set of positions, we will continue to update them and to add new items as issues develop. 3. Office of Science and Technology The Teague-Mosher Bill as introduced on July 30 will probably be marked up October 8. We probably could live with the bill as now drafted it necessary, but we are working to get some changes. The Senate's 2 posture at this point is to wait until the House completes action before moving. Senators Moss and Magnuson say they want prompt action and will probably accept most of the House bill. Kennedy may press for public hearings and expansion of the House bill. 4. Development of State of the Union Options Our meetings with members of the Cabinet to solicit their ideas and views for next year are producing some warmed-over ideas, but some new suggestions. We met last week with the Attorney General and Secretary Mathews. We meet this week with Secretary Hills and next week with Secretary Simon. That leaves five to go--FEA, CEA, CEQ, VA, and ACTION. 5. Auto Emissions Bill Seidman and I met individually with representatives of the auto companies to get their views on suspending tighter controls. In brief: a. An early decision by Congress is quite important to all four. b. A two-year suspension would be of marginal benefit to GM and Ford, because both have already made major investments in developing ways to reach the standards for the 1977 and 1978 model years. But American Motors is so hard pressed that any suspension would help them. C. All made a good case that a three-year suspension is sound economically and environmentally. d good Several suggested a new approach: That Congress not legislate arbitrary mandatory standards, but direct that emission standards be set annually, four or five years in advance, by a group of government agencies that might include FEA, EPA, HEW and the National Science Foundation. Congress, under their plan, would retain veto power over the results. By Fuding unput be an 6. Busing affinvation cone coned put thing together Senator Henry Bellmon has suggested to Dick Parsons and me that the Administration create a small information unit of Justice and HEW officials who Watch could, upon request, inform a school board or a Federal judge about ways other school districts have used to bring about an orderly desegregation of a school system. Bellmon's idea came from the wr experience of Tulsa and Oklahoma City, one of which Goldarni desegregated with few problems, the other with big problems. Bellmon believes that many judges and school officials are inexperienced and have no place to go to find out how other school districts made it work. idea If you feel Bellmon's idea could be helpful, I will take it up with the Attorney General and Secretary Mathews. 7. Southern Governors Both Senator Mansfield and Al Ullman made a poor impression on most of the 15 Southern governors. Mansfield expressed great pessimism about the free enterprise system being able to meet problems, and Ullman made a speech SO partisan as to be embarrasing to most of his fellow Democrats. Several Democratic governors mentioned to me later that, with the present Congressional leadership, they have little hope that Congress will do anything about energy or the economy. Bui Taylor Boh Stranes K can Bo Callaway- [9/16/75] a Heary 1 go Though step m. ibp How 5 purk woll out foor - strup student ages feual - has how in NP- Soulway. Rep Ree - prittaing altemater up an What D Congun doesnt do. GERALD FORD 6 - Nota Dad isea Golburn non of cant we Sach Scole. Ash Coul + Un food out if used If not, why. Congreen wjut to Sun Juidelvies Camb. of Ballicor Each 4 Such - law who effect On I Beston , FORDO & LIBRARY Count oresnt To bollow Scentehies congum Laid down FORD & BERRED LIBRARY

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    "ocrText": "The original documents are located in Box 51, folder \"1975/09/16 - President, Vice\nPresident and Jim Lynn\" of the James M. Cannon Files at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential\nLibrary.\nCopyright Notice\nThe copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of\nphotocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Gerald Ford donated to the United\nStates of America his copyrights in all of his unpublished writings in National Archives collections.\nWorks prepared by U.S. Government employees as part of their official duties are in the public\ndomain. The copyrights to materials written by other individuals or organizations are presumed to\nremain with them. If you think any of the information displayed in the PDF is subject to a valid\ncopyright claim, please contact the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library.\nDigitized from Box 51 of the James M. Cannon Files at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library\nMEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT\nVICE PRESIDENT AND MR. LYNN\nTuesday, September 16, 1975\n2:30 p.m.\nOval Office\nTHE VICE PRESIDENT\nWASHINGTON\nSeptember 10, 1975\nMEMORANDUM FOR:\nTHE PRESIDENT\nTHE VICE PRESIDENT har\nFROM:\nSUBJECT:\nPublic Forums on\nDomestic Policy\nAttached is the plan for conducting the Public\nForums on Domestic Policy, administered by the Domestic\nCouncil. The plan proposes:\nOne-day meetings in six cities with specific dates\nand locations listed. (Four. additional cities\noptional.)\nAt each Forum, a three-hour morning session would\nbe held with the Vice President chairing. Following\nthe morning session, the participants would divide\ninto four groups along the following major policy\nareas:\nSocial Programs\nJobs and the Economy\nResources and the Environment\nCommunity Development, Transportation,\nand Housing\nTestimony from solicited persons representing a\nbroad cross-section of opinion and interests.\nThe Forums be announced by the President and the\nVice President following a Domestic Council meeting\nduring the week of September 22.\nAttachment\nTHE WHITE HOUSE\nWASHINGTON\nSeptember 10, 1975\nMEMORANDUM FOR:\nVICE PRESIDENT\nFROM:\nJAMES M. CANNON\nSUBJECT:\nPublic Forums on Domestic\nPolicy\nI.\nOBJECTIVES\nTo conduct a series of six or more meetings, geograph-\nically distributed, to:\nOutline what the nation is facing with regard\nto Domestic Programs;\nObtain public input in the development of\nPresidential options;\nAssist the President in formulating his legis-\nlative recommendations and initiatives to the\nCongress in the 1975 State of the Union message.\nII. FORUM FORMAT\nEach Forum will be a one-day meeting, consisting of\nthe following elements:\nA. A morning session of approximately three hours\nwould be chaired by the Vice President with\nCabinet members and other Federal officials\nparticipating. The Vice President would open\nwith introductions and brief remarks. The\nbalance of the morning would be divided into\ntime for a discussion of four major domestic\npolicy areas. Two or three witnesses would be\nasked to present five-minute testimony on issues\nrelating to social programs, the economy,\nresources, and subjects of interest to the area\nsuch as housing, transportation, etc. Following\nthe presentation of testimony for each segment,\nthe witnesses could be questioned by the Vice\nPresident and Federal officials. A portion of\nthe time could also be made available for public\nparticipation.\n- 2 -\nB. Following the morning session, four separate,\nsimultaneous meetings would be held to continue\nthe discussion of the four major policy areas.\nThese would involve:\n1. A Cabinet level official would serve as\nchairman and would be backed up by rep-\nsentatives from appropriate Federal\nagencies, including the Domestic Council.\n2. Selected individuals, representing a\ncross section of interests and opinion,\nwould present testimony on pre-determined\nsubjects. Each witness would be allowed\nup to five minutes for testimony, or to\nsummarize a more comprehensive statement.\n3. Total seating for each of the four meetings\nwill be approximately 125 persons. Fifty\nto seventy-five seats will be reserved for\nthe witnesses and support personnel; the\nremainder will be available to the general\npublic on a first-come, first-served basis.\n4. Vice President will rotate among the four\nmeetings, dividing his time equally.\n5. Opportunity for submission of written\nstatements from the public.\n6. An informal buffet luncheon for the Federal\nofficials, invited participants, and\nselected State and local officials, hosted\nby the Cabinet member who would be serving\nas chairman, could begin the afternoon\nsessions.\nIII. DATES AND LOCATIONS\nTuesday, October 21\nDenver, Colorado*\nTuesday, October 28\nKansas City, Mo. *\nTuesday, November 11\nAustin, Texas\nTuesday, November 18\nPhiladelphia, Pa. *\nMonday, December 1\nNashville, Tennessee\nTuesday, December 9\nLos Angeles or\nSacramento, California\n* Locations of Federal Regional Offices\n- 3 -\nPossible additional cities (dates not currently\navailable in Vice President's schedule):\nTampa/St. Petersburg, Florida\nSpringfield, Illinois\nHartford, Connecticut\nAlbuquerque, New Mexico\nNOTE:\nThe Vice President should not be scheduled to\nparticipate in any political activities in conjunction\nwith the Forums.\nIV. CONFERENCE ISSUES\nThe Forums will focus on four major domestic policy\nareas:\nSocial Programs (welfare, health, etc.)\nJobs and the Economy (manpower programs,\ninflation, etc.)\nResources and the Environment (raw materials,\nagriculture, etc.)\nCommunity Development, Transportation, and\nHousing\nThe issues could vary according to regional interests.\nUnder each general policy area specific issues will\nreceive focus through the scheduling of witnesses.\nFor example, welfare reform can be a discussion issue\nthrough scheduling witnesses concerned with that\nsubject for a block of time; the same with health\ncare, etc.\nV. PARTICIPANT SELECTION (WITNESSES)\nParticipants will be selected from recommendations\nreceived from: State and local officials; labor,\nbusiness, consumer groups and similar key constit-\nuencies; local Federal officials (Regional Offices) ;\nWhite House lists. Congressional recommendations,\nthough not solicited, will also be considered.\nA limited number of witnesses will come from State\nand local governments in the region covered by each\nForum.\nMembers of Congress from the region covered by the\nForum will be briefed on the purpose and plans of the\nForum by the Congressional Liaison office. Although\nnot specifically invited to the Forum, Members will\nbe welcome to attend, as observers, and will receive\nappropriate introductions.\n- 4 -\nVI. ANNOUNCEMENT STRATEGY\nA. During the week of September 22, the Congressional\nleadership should be briefed at a session with the\nPresident.\nB. During the same week, the President would call\na meeting of the Domestic Council, at which time\nhe describes the program. Immediately following\nthe meeting, the President and Vice President\nshould adjourn to the press room. The President\nwould announce his decision to direct that the\nhearings be held. The Vice President would brief\nthe press about the purpose and scope of the\nhearings.\nC. It is important that a distinction be made between\nthe Public Forums on Domestic Policy and the White\nHouse Conferences on Domestic and Economic Policy.\nIn order to avoid confusion, it is recommended\nthat the White House conferences be suspended\nduring the period when the Forums are scheduled.\nD. Cooperation from the departments and agencies\nrepresented on the Domestic Council to provide\npersonnel and financial resources for these\nForums is essential. It will be necessary to\nutilize Regional Office personnel in the cities\nwhere the Forums will be held.\nCV\ntreep for New\nSCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY ADVISORY APPARATUS\nSummary\nHouse. Teague Mosher bill introduced on July 30\nwas scheduled for markup on September 8 but this\nhas been delayed until October 8 because of Teague's\nillness and press of other business. It's conceivable\nthat the Committee could take it up on September 24\nif we considered it important and the President or\nVice President wished to telephone Teague and Mosher\nto urge prompt action. Even if we do not want to\npress for earlier action, a call from the Vice\nPresident would be helpful to keep attention focused.\nI have reviewed the bill with Drs. Stever, Mark,\nRamo and Baker and staff of OMB, NSC and the Vice\nPresident's office and met with Phil Yeager for a\npreliminary staff level discussion of the bill. My\nassessment is that the Administration could live\nwith the bill as now written, if necessary, but\nthat we can and should work to get some changes\ndiscussed below.\nSenate. Staff of the three Committees with\njurisdiction (Commerce, Aeronautical and Space\nSciences, Labor & Welfare) are meeting but have not\nagreed on a course of action. Probably will not act\nuntil the House completes action. Commerce and Moss\nCommittee are likely to favor prompt action, largely\naccepting House bill. Kennedy may want to press for\nhearings and for expansion of the bill.\nDetails\nThe new Teague-Mosher bill (H.R. 9058) has three principal\ntitles:\nTitle I - declares a national policy on science\nand technology.\nTitle II - creates an Office of Science and Technology\npolicy as proposed by the President, with three\nexceptions.\n- 2 -\nThe Director would be subject to Senate\nconfirmation.\nThe President would have the discretion of\nappointing up to four assistant directors.\n(This is designed to allow this and succeeding\npresidents to structure the office as they\nprefer; e.g., Director and a deputy; a 3 or\n5-man council)\nThe functions of the office are spelled out\nin more detail.\nTitle III - calls for appointment by the President\nof a Committee of 5 to 12 members for a full survey\nof Federal science and technology policies, program\nand organization and submission of a report within\n15 months to the President and the Congress.\nAssessment\nTitle I:\n-\nIt is undesirable to have a science and technology\npolicy in law but, with a few changes it will be a\nrather harmless statement.\nThe House Committee will insist on having a\npolicy statement.\nTitle II. We should:\n-\nAccept the idea of Senate confirmation for the\nDirector.\n- Accept the idea of discretionary authority for\nappointing as many as four assistant directors\nat Level III.\n- Accept the idea of great specificity of functions\nbut seek wording changes to avoid too much\nspecificity (e.g., on role in budget formulation).\nTitle III.\n-\nAs a preferred option, we should favor deletion\nof the Survey Committee but recognize that the\nTeague Committee will insist on its retention.\n-\nAs a fall back position, seek changes which make\nthe Survey Committee less independent and duplica-\ntive; specifically:\nall the Director of OSTP to serve also as\nchairman of the Survey Committee.\nhave the Committee report to the President and\ngive him time to evaluate the report before\ntransmitting it with recommendations to the Congress.\nclarify its scope.\nTHE WHITE HOUSE\nACTION\nWASHINGTON\nSeptember 15, 1975\nMEMORANDUM FOR:\nTHE PRESIDENT\nFROM:\nJIM CANNON\nSUBJECT:\nAdministration Position on Federal\nRole in Health Professions Education\nThis is to present for your decision the issue of the\nFederal role in the education of health professionals.\nThe position of the Administration needs to be decided\nbefore HEW testifies tomorrow before the Senate. Attached\nat Tab A is a memorandum from Jim Lynn and at Tab B a\nmemorandum from Secretary Mathews presenting the position\nof each.\nISSUE\nThe broad issue is how to approach the problems of geographic\nand specialty maldistribution of health professionals.\nThe issue focuses in particular on the question: Should the\nAdministration propose to continue Federal formula grant\nsupport (capitation) limited to medical and dental schools?\nA related matter is also brought to your attention: Should\nthe Administration propose a new student loan program for\nmedical and dental students? This issue is not pressing\nand can await, if you so decide, further development of the\nspecific proposals before a position is taken.\nBACKGROUND\nYour '76 budget proposes:\n-- an elimination of construction grants for medical\nschools\n--- a gradual four year phase-out of capitation grants\n-- an increase in special project grants\n-- an expansion of medical student scholarship assistance\ntied to repayment through Federal service\n- 2 -\nThese are proposals which have been advocated by the Admin-\nistration for the last three years. Congress has shown no\ninclination to accept this approach. On two previous occasions\nyou have decided to maintain this Administration stance.\nHEW argues that the only way the Administration can play a\nrole in shaping the legislation currently moving on the Hill\nis to recognize that some capitation program will evolve and\nto work toward developing a compromise measure.\nA. Capitation Issue\nShould the Administration proposed to continue capitation\ngrants but only for medical and dental schools?\n-- Administration would maintain position that capitation\nfor pharmacists, veterinarians, optometrists and\npodiatrists should be phased out.\nArguments for Capitation\n1. Capitation, as proposed by HEW, would be provided only\nto those medical and dental schools agreeing to the\nnational goals of:\n-- maintaining enrollment levels,\n-- increasing output of primary health care skills,\n-- improving a geographic distribution of graduates.\n2. Restricting capitation to medical and dental schools\nwould permit reductions in Federal funding while allowing\ntargeting on those schools whose training is the longest,\nmost expensive, and least responsive to normal market\nforces.\n3. Capitation would help assure that tuition charges do\nnot rise to levels that would discourage low and middle\nincome students from seeking medical and dental careers.\nArguments for Maintaining Opposition to any Capitation\n1. Health profession students should not be singled out\nfor capitation grant subsidies not available in other\nfields of higher education, especially in view of health\nprofessionals' substantially higher career income prospects.\n- 3 -\n2. Capitation subsidies, as formula allocations, do not\nfocus Federal assistance on program merit or financial\nneed.\n0. The proposed phase-out of capitation would only require\ntuition increases of $400 annually over the next four\nyears, if schools seek to replace the capitation re-\nduction with tuition increases.\n4. A limited Federal role is appropriate because -- while\nthere is consensus on the existence of maldistribution --\nthere is no agreement on its extent or on the ways to\naddress the problem.\nB. Student Assistance Issue\nShould the Administration propose a new loan program for\nmedical and dental students? Such a loan program would\nbe funded \"off-the-budget.\" Loan repayment would be\nmade over a 20-year period based upon professional\nincome.\nArguments for a New Loan Program\n1. Estimated total 4-year costs -- including living\nexpenses -- to medical and dental students are between\n$30,000 and $40,000. Medical and dental students need\nadditional sources of financing for these costs.\n2. The current Federal guaranteed student loan program\nis inadequate not simply because the loan guarantee\nlimit of $10,000 is too low, but also because banks\nare unwilling to consistently make individual loans\nto students of $30,000 to $40,000. Repayment pressures\nmay lead graduates into high paying specialties rather\nthan primary care.\nArguments Against a New Loan Program\n1. While an income-related loan program may be a good\nidea, the specifics of such a proposal should be\nfully worked out before the Administration makes a\ncommitment to it.\n- 4 -\n2. Congress and the Administration have generally opposed\noff-the-budget financing of Federal programs.\n3. No current evidence supports a conclusion that there\nis a significant number of medical or dental students\nor applicants foregoing an education because of inability\nto obtain financing.\n4. Federal scholarship student assistance should be tied\nto a service commitment. For other students who seek\nFederal support, but do not wish to commit themselves\nto meeting Federal objectives, assistance should be\nlimited to Federal loan guarantees.\n5. An income-related loan repayment program is a complex\nissue with implications for the Federal responsibility\nin higher education generally and therefore should not\nbe considered apart from other HEW higher education\nloan proposals.\nRECOMMENDATIONS\nOMB is arguing that capitation should continue to be phased\nout and that the needs of medical students should be considered\nas part of the overall Federal approach to higher education\nstudent loan programs.\nSecretary Mathews maintains that Congress will continue\ncapitation programs and therefore if we persist in our\ncurrent position, we will play no role in the eventual\noutcome which is likely to be an extension or expansion\nof the existing program.\nI believe that given the history of Congressional action on\nthe Administration's position we should seek the most\neffective use of capitation and therefore I recommend\nsupport of HEW's capitation proposal.\nAction on the student assistance recommendations should\nawait further development of specific elements of the\nvarious proposals.\n- 5 -\nDECISION\nCapitation Subsidies\nOption 1: Continue capitation for medical and dental\nschools that agree to participate in geographic\nand specialty distribution initiatives.\nAPPROVE\nDISAPPROVE\n(Cannon, Mathews,\nBuchen)\nOption 2: Phase-out capitation subsidies over a 4-year\nperiod. Meet geographic and specialty mal-\ndistribution through special projects and\nscholarships.\nAPPROVE\nDISAPPROVE\n(Lynn, Friedersdorf,\nGreenspan)\nStudent Assistance\nOption 1: Establish a new off-the-budget loan program\nfor medical and dental students.\nAPPROVE\nDISAPPROVE\n(Mathews)\nOption 2:\nConsider a new income-related loan repayment program\nas part of a comprehensive review of Federal\neducation loan programs in the context of\ndeveloping the 1977 budget.\nAPPROVE\nDISAPPROVE\n(Cannon, Lynn, Buchen,\nFriedersdorf, Greenspan)\nTHE VICE PRESIDENT\nWASHINGTON\nAGENDA FOR THE\nMEETING WITH THE PRESIDENT\nTuesday, September 16, 1975\n1. Impressions from the London trip\n2. Energy Independence Authority, and the Importance\nof its Relationship to\n-- jobs;\n-- stimulating the economy.\n3. CIA - Jim Connor's request to prepare a final TAB A\ndecision memo on Presidential actions\nrelating to the intelligence community;\n4. Office of Science and Technology Policy\nTAB B\n5. Domestic Council Hearings\n-- anticipating a major overhaul of\nsocial programs, that will enable\nthe nation to meet human needs on a\nbasis of fiscal integrity,\n-- while eliminating red-tape\nand bureaucratic repetition;\n- 2 -\n6. Bicentennial Speech Ideas\n-- idea for a series of Presidential\nTAB C\nBicentennial speeches on key subjects,\nthat could ultimately be published in\nbook form sometime next year;\n-- a sample speech -- on \"The Role of\nTAB D\nPhilanthropy in Our History\"\nU\nTHE WHITE HOUSE\nWASHINGTON\nSeptember 16, 1975\nADMINISTRATIVELY CONFIDENTIAL\nMEMORANDUM FOR:\nJIM CANNON\nJIM LYNN\nFROM:\nJIM CONNOR Jrl\nSUBJECT:\nAdministration Position on Federal Role\nin Health Professions Education\nThe President reviewed the recommendations submitted to him\nyesterday on the above subject and approved the following:\nCapitation Subsidies\nOption 1: Continue capitation for medical and dental\nschools that agree to participate in\ngeographic and specialty distribution\ninitiatives.\nStudent Assistance\nOption 2: Consider a new income-related loan repayment\nprogram as part of a comprehensive review of\nFederal education loan programs in the context\nof developing the 1977 budget.\nPlease follow-up with appropriate action.\ncc: Don Rumsfeld\nTHE WHITE HOUSE\nWASHINGTON\nSeptember 16, 1975\nWEEKLY DOMESTIC ACTIVITIES REPORT\nFOR THE PRESIDENT\n1.\nDomestic Council Hearings\nWe are making arrangements for the Domestic Council\nhearings and believe it is time for you to make a\nformal announcement to the White House Press Corps.\nWe understand you plan to discuss the hearings at\ntomorrow's Cabinet meeting and express your desire\nto have members of the Cabinet participate personally\nin the hearings. We also think it would be appropriate\nif you would go down to the Press Briefing Room after\nthe Cabinet meeting to announce the hearings and ask\nthe Vice President to describe what they are designed\nto achieve.\n2.\nKey Facts on Domestic Issues\nWe have our staff at work developing draft positions,\nbased on your statements, on some 60 domestic issues,\nfrom busing to welfare reform. Once the drafts are\ncomplete, we will circulate them to your senior staff\nfor their review and then to you for your approval.\nThe purpose is to provide your senior staff and\nmembers of the Cabinet with a ready reference on your\npositions on issues for their review prior to their\npress conferences and public appearances. Once we\ncomplete this set of positions, we will continue to\nupdate them and to add new items as issues develop.\n3.\nOffice of Science and Technology\nThe Teague-Mosher Bill as introduced on July 30 will\nprobably be marked up October 8. We probably could\nlive with the bill as now drafted it necessary, but\nwe are working to get some changes. The Senate's\n2\nposture at this point is to wait until the House\ncompletes action before moving. Senators Moss and\nMagnuson say they want prompt action and will\nprobably accept most of the House bill. Kennedy\nmay press for public hearings and expansion of the\nHouse bill.\n4.\nDevelopment of State of the Union Options\nOur meetings with members of the Cabinet to solicit\ntheir ideas and views for next year are producing\nsome warmed-over ideas, but some new suggestions.\nWe met last week with the Attorney General and\nSecretary Mathews. We meet this week with Secretary\nHills and next week with Secretary Simon. That leaves\nfive to go--FEA, CEA, CEQ, VA, and ACTION.\n5.\nAuto Emissions\nBill Seidman and I met individually with representatives\nof the auto companies to get their views on suspending\ntighter controls. In brief:\na. An early decision by Congress is quite important\nto all four.\nb. A two-year suspension would be of marginal benefit\nto GM and Ford, because both have already made\nmajor investments in developing ways to reach\nthe standards for the 1977 and 1978 model years.\nBut American Motors is so hard pressed that any\nsuspension would help them.\nC. All made a good case that a three-year suspension\nis sound economically and environmentally.\nd. Several suggested a new approach: That Congress\nnot legislate arbitrary mandatory standards, but\ndirect that emission standards be set annually,\nfour or five years in advance, by a group of\ngovernment agencies that might include FEA, EPA,\nHEW and the National Science Foundation. Congress,\nunder their plan, would retain veto power over the\nresults.\n3\n6.\nBusing\nSenator Henry Bellmon has suggested to Dick Parsons\nand me that the Administration create a small\ninformation unit of Justice and HEW officials who\ncould, upon request, inform a school board or a\nFederal judge about ways other school districts have\nused to bring about an orderly desegregation of a\nschool system. Bellmon's idea came from the\nexperience of Tulsa and Oklahoma City, one of which\ndesegregated with few problems, the other with big\nproblems. Bellmon believes that many judges and\nschool officials are inexperienced and have no place\nto go to find out how other school districts made it\nwork.\nIf you feel Bellmon's idea could be helpful, I will\ntake it up with the Attorney General and Secretary\nMathews.\n7.\nSouthern Governors\nBoth Senator Mansfield and Al Ullman made a poor\nimpression on most of the 15 Southern governors.\nMansfield expressed great pessimism about the free\nenterprise system being able to meet problems, and\nUllman made a speech SO partisan as to be embarrasing\nto most of his fellow Democrats.\nSeveral Democratic governors mentioned to me later\nthat, with the present Congressional leadership, they\nhave little hope that Congress will do anything about\nenergy or the economy.\ntime\nTHE WHITE HOUSE\nWASHINGTON\nWMY\nSeptember 16, 1975\nWEEKLY DOMESTIC ACTIVITIES REPORT\nFOR THE PRESIDENT\n1.\nDomestic Council Hearings\nWe are making arrangements for the Domestic Council\nhearings and believe it is time for you to make a\nformal announcement to the White House Press Corps.\nWe understand you plan to discuss the hearings at\ntomorrow's Cabinet meeting and express your desire\nto have members of the Cabinet participate personally\nin the hearings. We also think it would be appropriate\nif you would go down to the Press Briefing Room after\nthe Cabinet meeting to announce the hearings and ask\nthe Vice President to describe what they are designed\nto achieve.\n2.\nKey Facts on Domestic Issues\nWe have our staff at work developing draft positions,\nbased on your statements, on some 60 domestic issues,\nfrom busing to welfare reform. Once the drafts are\ncomplete, we will circulate them to your senior staff\nfor their review and then to you for your approval.\nThe purpose is to provide your senior staff and\nmembers of the Cabinet with a ready reference on your\npositions on issues for their review prior to their\npress conferences and public appearances. Once we\ncomplete this set of positions, we will continue to\nupdate them and to add new items as issues develop.\n3.\nOffice of Science and Technology\nThe Teague-Mosher Bill as introduced on July 30 will\nprobably be marked up October 8. We probably could\nlive with the bill as now drafted it necessary, but\nwe are working to get some changes. The Senate's\n2\nposture at this point is to wait until the House\ncompletes action before moving. Senators Moss and\nMagnuson say they want prompt action and will\nprobably accept most of the House bill. Kennedy\nmay press for public hearings and expansion of the\nHouse bill.\n4.\nDevelopment of State of the Union Options\nOur meetings with members of the Cabinet to solicit\ntheir ideas and views for next year are producing\nsome warmed-over ideas, but some new suggestions.\nWe met last week with the Attorney General and\nSecretary Mathews. We meet this week with Secretary\nHills and next week with Secretary Simon. That leaves\nfive to go--FEA, CEA, CEQ, VA, and ACTION.\n5.\nAuto Emissions\nBill Seidman and I met individually with representatives\nof the auto companies to get their views on suspending\ntighter controls. In brief:\na. An early decision by Congress is quite important\nto all four.\nb. A two-year suspension would be of marginal benefit\nto GM and Ford, because both have already made\nmajor investments in developing ways to reach\nthe standards for the 1977 and 1978 model years.\nBut American Motors is so hard pressed that any\nsuspension would help them.\nC. All made a good case that a three-year suspension\nis sound economically and environmentally.\nd\ngood\nSeveral suggested a new approach: That Congress\nnot legislate arbitrary mandatory standards, but\ndirect that emission standards be set annually,\nfour or five years in advance, by a group of\ngovernment agencies that might include FEA, EPA,\nHEW and the National Science Foundation. Congress,\nunder their plan, would retain veto power over the\nresults.\nBy Fuding\nunput be an\n6.\nBusing\naffinvation cone coned put thing together\nSenator Henry Bellmon has suggested to Dick Parsons\nand me that the Administration create a small\ninformation unit of Justice and HEW officials who\nWatch\ncould, upon request, inform a school board or a\nFederal judge about ways other school districts have\nused to bring about an orderly desegregation of a\nschool system. Bellmon's idea came from the\nwr\nexperience of Tulsa and Oklahoma City, one of which\nGoldarni\ndesegregated with few problems, the other with big\nproblems. Bellmon believes that many judges and\nschool officials are inexperienced and have no place\nto go to find out how other school districts made it\nwork.\nidea\nIf you feel Bellmon's idea could be helpful, I will\ntake it up with the Attorney General and Secretary\nMathews.\n7.\nSouthern Governors\nBoth Senator Mansfield and Al Ullman made a poor\nimpression on most of the 15 Southern governors.\nMansfield expressed great pessimism about the free\nenterprise system being able to meet problems, and\nUllman made a speech SO partisan as to be embarrasing\nto most of his fellow Democrats.\nSeveral Democratic governors mentioned to me later\nthat, with the present Congressional leadership, they\nhave little hope that Congress will do anything about\nenergy or the economy.\nBui Taylor\nBoh Stranes\nK can Bo Callaway-\n[9/16/75]\na\nHeary 1 go Though\nstep m. ibp\nHow\n5 purk woll out\nfoor - strup\nstudent\nages\nfeual - has how\nin\nNP- Soulway.\nRep Ree - prittaing altemater up an\nWhat D Congun\ndoesnt do.\nGERALD FORD\n6 - Nota Dad isea\nGolburn\nnon of cant\nwe Sach Scole.\nAsh Coul + Un\nfood out if used\nIf not, why.\nCongreen wjut to Sun Juidelvies\nCamb. of Ballicor Each\n4\nSuch - law who effect\nOn I Beston\n,\nFORDO & LIBRARY\nCount oresnt To bollow\nScentehies congum Laid down\nFORD & BERRED LIBRARY"
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