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"Sunset Bills"
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1672803
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"Sunset Bills"
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collections
Michael Raoul-Duval Papers
Election Campaign Files
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1976-08-31
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1976
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1976
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The original documents are located in Box 24, folder "Sunset Bills" of the Michael Raoul-
Duval Papers at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library.
Copyright Notice
The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of
photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Michael Raoul-Duval donated to the
United States of America his copyrights in all of his unpublished writings in National Archives
collections. Works prepared by U.S. Government employees as part of their official duties are in
the public domain. The copyrights to materials written by other individuals or organizations are
presumed to remain with them. If you think any of the information displayed in the PDF is subject
to a valid copyright claim, please contact the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library.
Some items in this folder were not digitized because it contains copyrighted
materials. Please contact the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library for access to
these materials.
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
May 31, 1976
MEMORANDUM FOR:
JIM CANNON
FROM:
DICK CHENEY
SUBJECT:
PROPOSED "SUNSET LAW"
Do we have a position on legislation recently introduced
in Congress which would abolish most Federal agencies
every five years unless Congress votes to extend them?
These "Sunset" bills have great support throughout the
country and, while perhaps simplistic, are nevertheless
perceived to be part of the answer to the "big government"
problem. (See attached editorial.)
The President should not be in the position of having to
veto such a bill this summer. Perhaps the President should
step out quickly in support of such bills, but try to influ-
ence their content.
FORD LIBRARY j GERALD
C-14
California Supplement
FORD PROPOSES ACTION
It's Time To Deregulate
President Ford is asking Congress
keep them in existence.
to commit itself to a four-year pro-
Mr. Ford wants Congress to act
gram of doing away with needless
this year on a measure that would
government regulations. He has
establish deadlines in the 1977-80 pe-
sketched out a timetable for tackling
rind for congressional action on his
San Diego Union (5/18/76)
FORD LIBRARY & GERALD
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
August 5, 1976
Dear Pete:
Thanks very much for the information you sent me
on the Sunshine Act which was passed Wednesday.
After our dinner conversation last week, I spoke
to Jack Marsh and Max Friedersdorf about your con-
cerns that the conferees would not fight to keep
the House amendments.
I will see to it that they have copies of the
materials you sent me in order that they can
follow up on my earlier conversation.
It was great seeing you the other night, and I
look forward to seeing you in Kansas City, if not
before.
Sincerely,
Mike
Michael Raoul-Duval
Special Counsel
to the President
The Honorable Paul N. McCloskey, Jr.
House of Representatives
Washington, D.C. 20515
FORD LIBRARY & GERALD
bee
PAUL N. McCLOSKEY, JR.
205 CANNON BUILDING
12TH DISTRICT, CALIFORNIA
WASHINGTON, D.C. 20515
(202) 225-5411
COMMITTEE ON
GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS
Congress of the United States
DISTRICT OFFICE:
AND
305 GRANT AVENUE
COMMITTEE ON
PALO ALTO, CALIFORNIA 94306
MERCHANT MARINE
house of Representatives
(415) 326-7383
AND FISHERIES
Washington, D.C. 20515
August 2, 1976
Mr. Michael Duval
Special Counsel to the President
The White House
Washington, D. C. 20500
Dear Mike:
I am enclosing a copy of the full House debate on the Sunshine
Act which was passed Wednesday. It is imperative that the White
House take steps with the Senate conferees to insure that the House
amendments are retained. The Senate conferees were appointed yes-
terday and are Senators Ribicoff, Muskie, Metcalf, Chiles, Percy,
Javits and Roth. I will be contacting each one of them but I
suggest that this matter is of enough importance to the Administration
particularly to Arthur Burns and Rod Hills, that a maximum way-out
effort is deserved.
Sincerely,
Pite
Paul N. McCloskey, Jr.
FORD LIBRARY is GERALD
PNMcC:mm
cc: Chairman Arthur Burns
Chairman Roderick Hills
THIS STATIONERY PRINTED ON PAPER MADE WITH RECYCLED FIBERS
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD DAILY DIGEST
D 1033
An amendment which sought to include in the quali-
Rejected:
fications for mine inspectors at least 5 years of practical
An amendment which sought to strike the language
mining experience in the same type of mine and region.
providing that any person can bring suit against an
The clerk was authorized to make necessary technical
agency for violation of the requirements of the bill (by
corrections in the engrossment of the bill.
a recorded vote of 134 ayes to 258 noes); and
Pages H7850-H7863
An amendment which sought to redefine the term
Subcommittees To Sit: Subcommittee on Military
agency.
Compensation of the Committee on Armed Services re-
Subsequently, this passage was vacated, and S. 5, a
ceived permission to sit today and Thursday, July 29,
similar Senate-passed bill was passed in lieu after being
during the proceedings of the House under the 5-min-
amended to contain the language of the House bill as
ute rule; and
passed.
Subcommitete on Science, Research and Technology
H. Res. 1207, the rule under which the bill was con-
of the Committee on Science and Technology received
sidered, was agreed to earlier by a yea-and-nay vote of
permission to sit Thursday, July 29, during the proceed-
39I yeas.
Pages H7866-H7902
ings of the House under the 5-minute rule.
Amendments Ordered Printed: Amendments ordered
Pages H7863-H7866
printed pursuant to the rule appear on pages H7919-
Presidential Message-Budget Deferrals: Received
H7920.
and read a message from the President proposing four
Quorum Calls-Votes: Three quorum calls, three yea-
rescissions in budget authority provided in Second Sup-
and-nay votes, and six recorded votes developed during
plemental Appropriations, 1976, and reporting four
the proceedings of the House today and appear on pages
new deferrals-referred to the Committee on Appro-
H7849, H7855, H7862, H7865-H7866, H7887, H7888-
priations and ordered printed.
Page H7863
H₇880, H7890, H7893-H7894, H7895-H7896, H7897-
Packers and Stockyards: Speaker appointed Repre-
H7898, H7899.
sentative English as a conferee on H.R. 8410, Packers
Adjournment: Adjourned at 6:25 p.m.
and Stockyards Act Amendments, vice Representative
Weaver, excused.
Committee Meetings
Page H7866
of
Government in Sunshine: By a yea-and-nay vote of
FOOD STAMP ACT
390 yeas to 5 nays, the House passed H.R. 11656, Gov-
Committee on Agriculture: Continued markup of H.R.
ernment in the Sunshine Act.
13613, Food Stamp Act of 1976, and will resume to-
Agreed to an amendment in the nature of a substi-
morrow.
in
tute incorporating all the committee amendments as
recommended by the committees on Government Op-
TIMBER MANAGEMENT PRACTICES
erations and the Judiciary as amended by:
Committee on Agriculture: Subcommittee on Forests
An amendment requiring that reason and statutory
14
continued markup of legislation dealing with timber
authority be set forth when an agency deletes material
management practices, and will resume tomorrow.
from transcripts (by a recorded vote of 232 ayes to 168
noes);
CONSOLIDATED FARM AND RURAL
An amendment which clarifies the definition of meet-
DEVELOPMENT ACT AMENDMENTS
ing to include only those meetings called for the pur-
Committee on Agriculture: Subcommittee on Conserva-
or
pose of discussing agency business (agreed to by a re-
of
tion and Credit held a hearing on H.R. 14641, to amend
corded vote of 204 ayes to 180 noes);
the Consolidated Farm and Rural Development Act.
An-amendment which deletes the verbatim transcript
Testimony was heard from Representative Harkin;
fi-
requirement and replaces it with a requirement that
USDA; and public witnesses.
minutes be recorded and retained by the agency (agreed
of
to by a recorded vote of 201 ayes to 193 noes);
COMMERCE APPROPRIATIONS
An amendment which applies the exemption provi-
Committee on Appropriations: Subcommittee on State,
on
sions of the bill to the Federal Advisory Committee Act;
Justice, Commerce and Judiciary held a hearing on the
An amendment excluding requests for information
public works employment appropriation bill-EDA.
or status reports from the meaning of ex parte com-
munication; and
MEDICAL OFFICERS' INCENTIVE PAY
nit
An amendment which clarifies the provisions of the
Committee on Armed Services: Subcommittee on Mili-
a
bill and its effect upon existing statute criteria of the
tary Compensation held a hearing on H.R. 14772, to
to
Freedom of Information Act (agreed to by a recorded
pay variable incentive pay to medical officers who par-
the
vote of 282 ayes to II2 noes). Previously, this amend-
ticipated in the Berry Plan. Testimony was heard from
ment was rejected by a division vote of 34 ayes to 35
Vernon McKenzie, Acting Assistant Secretary for
noes.
Health Affairs, DOD; Vice Adm. D. L. Custis, Chief,
28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
H 7867
the
by the President with
The communications prohibited by the
10 exemptions. These exemptions, which
and consent of the Senate.
ex parte section would include only those
roughly parallel those in the Freedom
ro-
ed-
covered under the bill in-
relative to the merits of the proceeding.
of Information Act, include-
not only sessions at which formal
Thus, an inquiry of an agency clerk as to
First, material concerning the national
lic,
is taken. but also those at which
the procedural status of an adjudication
defense.
ev-
its
a of members assembles to dis-
or rulemaking matter would not be un-
Second, information related solely to
om
the conduct or disposition of agency
lawful under the bill. A violation of the
the internal personnel rules and prac-
A chance encounter would not
prohibition could result in sanctions up
tices of an agency.
ith
be it meeting within the meaning of the
to and including loss of the proceeding
Third, information required or per-
ro-
bill so long as no agency business is con-
on the merits (as under existing case
mitted to be withheld by any other stat-
of
ducted or disposed of.
law). See, for example, Jacksonville
ute containing particular criteria. I have
The bill requires that every meeting
Broadcasting Corp. V. FCC, 348 F. 2d 75
been asked whether section 222(f) of the
ra-
tee
be open to the public unless it falls with-
(D.C. Cir.) cert. denied, 382 U.S. 893
Immigration Act, 8 U.S.C. 1202(f), comes
in one of the bill's 10 specific exemptions.
(1965).
within this provision. I have reviewed
In case of doubt as to whether a portion
SECTION-BY-SECTION ANALYSIS
that statute and I believe that it does
Iso
of a niceting is exempt, the presumption
Sections 1 and 2 of the bill entitle it
qualify. The same is true as to 13. U.S.C.
ted
is to be in favor of openness. Even if a
the "Government in the Sunshine" Act
section 9, a part of the Census Title.
use
matter falls within an exemption, the
and set forth a policy that the public is
Fourth, information that would dis-
ery
discussion must be open where the pub-
is
entitled to the fullest practicable infor-
close trade secrets and commercial or
lic interest so requires.
financial material obtained from a per-
the
mation regarding the decisionmaking
No meeting may be closed unless a
processes of the Federal Government.
son and privileged or confidential, as in-
No-
majority of the membership votes to
Section 3 of the bill, which contains
terpreted in cases such as National Parks
as-
take such action. Such a vote need not
the open meeting provisions, would en-
& Conservation Assn. V. Morton, 498 F.
ork
Itself occur during a meeting and could
of
act a new section 552b of title 5 of the
2d 765, 770 (D.C. Cir. 1974).
properly be taken by circulating a writ-
all
United States Code. The new section
Fifth, a discussion that would involve
ten ballot or tally sheet in advance.
would be composed of subsections (a)
accusing any person of a crime, or for-
cies
A copy of each vote on closing a meet-
through (o), which provide as follows:
mally censuring any person.
ing must be made available to the pub-
Subsection (a) contains definitions.
Sixth, information of a personal na-
is
lic whether or not the meeting or por-
Subsection (a) (1) defines "agency" to
ture where disclosure would constitute a
ave
tion is closed. This will inform the public
include any agency, as defined in the
clearly unwarranted invasion of personal
on-
as to the full voting record of each agen-
Freedom of Information Act, headed by
privacy.
rds
cy member on openness questions. When
a collegial body composed of two or more
Seventh, investigatory information
on,
a vote on the issue of closing fulfills the
individual members, a majority of whom
compiled for law enforcement purposes,
In-
requirements for closing, an explanation
ub-
are appointed by the President and con-
if it falls into one of six specific cate-
of the action and a list of persons ex-
firmed by the Senate, as well as any sub-
gories listed in this paragraph.
pected to attend the meeting must also
division thereof authorized to act on be-
Eighth, information contained in or
leg-
be made public.
half of the agency.
relating to bank condition reports.
nd-
Agencies are required to publicly an-
roc-
Subsection (a) (2) defines a "meeting"
Ninth, information the premature dis-
nounce, at least 1 week prior to a meet-
hat
as an assembly or simultaneous com-
closure of which would be likely to lead to
ing, its date, location, and other rele-
significant financial speculation, signif-
ince
munication concerning the joint conduct
vant information.
or disposition of agency business by two
icantly endanger the stability of any fl-
infi-
The keeping of a complete, verbatim
or more, but at least the number of in-
nancial institution, or significantly frus-
transcript or electronic recording of each
dividual agency members required to take
trate implementation of a proposed
nine
portion of a meeting closed to the public
action on behalf of the agency. A "meet-
agency action. The last part of this ex-
de-
would be required—excent for discussions
buld
ing" does not include meetings held
emption will not apply where the con-
dealing with adjudications or agency par-
solely to take action under this section.
tent or nature of the proposed agency
ight
ticipation in civil actions-and any por-
Subsection (a) (3) defines "member"
action has been disclosed to the public by
and
then
tion of each transcript or recording
as an individual who belongs to a col-
the agency, or where the agency will be
and
whose release would not have the effect
legial body heading an agency. If a ma-
required to make such disclosure prior to
on
set forth in one or more of the exemp-
jority of the members of an agency or
taking final action on the proposal.
tions would have to be made available to
subdivision are appointed by the Presi-
Tenth, discussions that specifically
an
the public. Under the bill as approved by
dent and confirmed by the Senate, then
concern the agency's issuance of a sub-
of
the Government Operations Committee,
any member of the body in question is
pena, or the agency's participation in a
ake
deletions would be replaced by a written
covered by the bill. For example, the
adjudication by the agency.
the
explanation of the reason and the statu-
Federal Open Market Committee. which
Subsection (d) provides methods and
blic
tory authority for each. Written minutes
sets our monetary policy, has 12 mem-
procedures for closing a meeting. A ma-
ript
of open meetings will also be required to
bers, seven of whom are appointed by
jority of the agency membership must
ma-
be kept and made publicly available.
the President and confirmed by the Sen-
vote to close and all votes on the issue
ire-
Any person could challenge in court
ate and five of whom are not. Since the
of closing must be made public. If a
meeting is closed, an explanation of the
IS a
the closing of a meeting or any other
FOMC is an "agency" under the legisla-
has
violation of the openness requirements
tion, all 12 individuals are "members."
closing and a list of those expected to
of the bill, and the burden of sustain-
attend must be made public. A special
ease
Subsection (b) (1) provides that agen-
e II-
ing the closing or other action in ques-
short-cut procedure is provided in sub-
cy members shall not jointly conduct or
tion would be upon the agency. The court
section (d) (4) for agencies who have &
dispose of agency business without com-
the
could enjoin future violations of the act
large volume of certain types of meetings
plying with the provisions of this legis-
ions
or release the transcript of an improperly
and expect to close most or all of them.
lation.
re-
closed meeting.
Subsection (e) requires a week's no-
Subsection (b) (2) provides that every
tice of a meeting, unless agency business
cord
II. EX PARTE COMMUNICATIONS
portion of every meeting of an agency
requires a lesser time period.
the-
Section 4 of the bill would enact a gen-
shall be open to public observation, ex-
Subsection (f) requires a transcript
per-
eral prohibition on ex parte communica-
cept as provided in subsection (c). The
or electronic recording to be made of a
tions between agency decisionmaking
agency must provide adequate seating
closed meeting, unless closed under ex-
personnel, including commissioners and
space, visibility, and acoustics. The public
emption (10), relating to civil and ad-
administrative law judges, and outside
is intended to be in the same room as the
judicatory proceedings. The transcript
persons having an interest in the out-
agency members.
or recording shall promptly be made
ould
come of a pending proceeding. These pro-
Subsection (c) permits an agency to
available to the public, except for such
gen-
visions would apply to executive agencies
close a meeting and to withhold the tran-
portions as the agency determines con-
the
without regard to whether they are head-
script thereof where the disclosure of the
tain information falling within 1 of
the
ed by a collegial body or a single indi-
information to be discussed can be rea-
the 10 exemptions. The bill as reported by
body
vidual.
sonably expected to come within 1 of
the Government Operations Committee
y of
H 7866
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
July 28, 1976
Pettis
Satterfield
Thompson
under the 5-minute rule this afternoon,
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, the
Pickle
Scheuer
Thone
Pike
Schneebeli
Thornton
July 28, and tomorrow morning, July 29,
general purpose of H.R. 11656 is to pro-
Poage
Schroeder
Traxler
1976.
vide that meetings of multimember Fed-
Pressler
Schulze
Treen
The SPEAKER. Is there objection to
eral agencies shall be open to the public,
Preyer
Sebelius
Tsongas
Price
Seiberling
Udall
the request of the gentleman from Illi-
with the exception of discussions of sev-
Pritchard
Sharp
Ullman
nois?
eral specific areas. The bill also prohibits
Quie
Shipley
Van Deerlin
There was no objection.
ex parte communications to and from
Quillen
Shriver
Vander Jagt
Rallsback
Shuster
Vander Veen
agency decisionmaking personnel with
Randall
Sikes
Vanik
respect to the merits of pending pro-
RESIGNATION AS MANAGER AND
Rangel
Simon
Vigorito
ceedings.
Reuss
Slack
Waggonner
APPOINTMENT OF MANAGER ON
Richmond
Smith, Iowa
Walsh
This bill is sponsored by 26 members of
H.R. 8410, PACKERS AND STOCK-
Rinaldo
Smith, Nebr.
Waxman
the Committee on Government Opera-
YARDS ACT OF 1921 AMENDMENTS
Risenhoover
Snyder
Weaver
tions and was voted out of the committee
Roberts
Solarz
Whalen
White
Mr. WEAVER. Mr. Speaker, I ask
by a vote of 32 to 7.
Robinson
Spellman
Rodino
Spence
Whitehurst
unanimous consent to be excused from
The Judiciary Committee, which also
Rogers
Staggers
Whitten
further service as manager on the part
considered this bill, ordered it reported
Roncalio
Stanton,
Wilson, Bob
of the House on the committee of con-
Rooney
J. William
Wilson, C. H.
by voice vote; 86 Members of the House
Rose
Stanton,
Winn
ference on the bill (H.R. 8410), Packers
are sponsors of either this bill or a very
Rosenthal
James V.
Wirth
and Stockyards Act of 1921 Amend-
similar version of it, and S. 5, which is
Roush
Stark
Wolff
ments.
Rousselot
Steed
Wright
also quite like H.R. 11656, passed the
Roybal
Steelman
Wydler
The SPEAKER. Without objection,
other body by a vote of 94 to 0 last No-
Runnels
Steiger, Wis.
Wylie
the resignation is accepted.
vember 6. In its present form, this meas-
Ruppe
Stokes
Yates
There was no objection.
Yatron
ure represents a great deal of hard work
Russo
Studds
Ryan
Symms
Young, Alaska
The SPEAKER. The Chair appoints as
on the part of the members and staff of
St Germain
Talcott
Young, Fla.
a manager of the committee of confer-
both committees and an effort to meet all
Santini
Taylor, Mo.
Young, Tex,
ence on H.R. 8410, Packers and Stock-
Sarasin
Zablocki
reasonable objections raised by agencies
Taylor, N.C.
Sarbanes
Teague
Zeferetti
yards Act of 1921 Amendments, the gen-
in the executive branch.
tleman from Oklahoma (Mr. ENGLISH),
NAYS-0
Absent special circumstances, there is
to fill the vacancy just created.
no reason why the public should not have
NOT VOTING-41
The Clerk will notify the Senate of
the right to observe the agency decision-
Biaggi
Jones, Tenn.
Rostenkowski
the change in managers.
making process firsthand. In the words
Burton, John
Kelly
Sisk
Carney
Landrum
Skubitz
of FCC Commissioner Glen O. Robinson,
Clay
Litton
Steiger, Ariz.
GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE
who testified before the Government In-
Dent
Lundine
Stephens
Stratton
ACT
formation and Individual Rights Sub-
Esch
Mathis
Fenwick
O'Hara
Stuckey
committee on this legislation:
Fountain
O'Neill
Sullivan
Ms. ABZUG. Mr. Speaker, I move that
Chief among the benefits (of the leg-
Gaydos
Peyser
Symington
the House resolve itself into the Commit-
islation) is increasing public understand-
Hansen
Rees
Wampler
tee of the Whole House on the State of
ing of administrative decisionmaking proc-
Hébert
Regula
Wiggins
the Union for the consideration of the
esses.
I do not know whether that
Helstoski
Rhodes
Wilson, Tex.
Henderson
Riegle
Young, Ga.
bill (H.R. 11656) to provide that meet-
understanding will lead to greater confidence
Hinshaw
Roe
ings of Government agencies shall be
in administrative decisionmaking.
The Clerk announced the following
open to the public, and for other pur-
Quite possibly, it could lead to less confi-
dence. But either of these outcomes
pairs:
poses.
can be beneficial: If, in the light of sunshine
The SPEAKER. The question is on
Mr. O'Neill with Mr. Landrum.
a Government agency shows itself to be de-
Mr. Dent with Mr. Stuckey.
the motion offered by the gentlewoman
serving of trust, then by all means it should
Mr. Lundine with Mr. Clay.
from New York (Ms. ABZUG).
have it; conversely, if that same sunlight
Mr. Rostenkowski with Mr. O'Hara.
The motion was agreed to.
reveals an agency to be inept, inefficient, and
Mr. Sisk with Mr. Riegle.
IN THE COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE
not in pursuit of the public interest, then
Mr. Fountain with Mr. Esch.
obviously that agency does not deserve, and
Accordingly the House resolved itself
Mr. Stratton with Mrs. Fenwick.
should not have, public trust. (Hearings on
into the Committee of the Whole House
Mr. Helstoski with Mr. Hansen.
H.R. 10315 and H.R. 9868, p. 98.)
Mr. Jones of Tennessee with Mr. Hébert.
on the State of the Union for the con-
Mr. Symington with Mr. Kelly.
sideration of the bill H.R. 11656, with
The legislation requires that when an
Mrs. BURKE of California in the chair.
agency closes a meeting under one of
Mr. Biaggi with Mr. Rees.
Mr. John Burton with Mr. Henderson.
The Clerk read the title of the bill.
the exemptions in the bill, it must make
Mr. Carney with Mr. Regula.
By unanimous consent, the first read-
a recording or verbatim transcript of the
Mr. Gaydos with Mr. Mathis.
ing of the bill was dispensed with.
closed portion and release to the public
Mr. Roe with Mr. Peyser.
The CHAIRMAN. Pursuant to the rule,
any part of the recording or transcript
Mr. Stephens with Mr. Steiger of Arizona.
Mrs. Sullivan with Mr. Skubitz.
general debate will continue not to ex-
that does not contain exempt informa-
ceed 2 hours, 1 hour to be equally di-
tion. A second purpose of this require-
Mr. Young of Georgia with Mr. Wampler.
vided and controlled by the chairman
ment is to assure that a citizen has a
Mr. Charles Wilson of Texas with Mr. Wig-
gins.
and ranking minority member of the
meaningful remedy when a meeting has
Committee on Government Operations,
been illegally closed, namely, the release
So the resolution was agreed to.
and 1 hour to be equally divided and
by the court of the transcript of the il-
The result of the vote was announced
controlled by the chairman and ranking
legally closed portion.
as above recorded.
minority member of the Committee on
The purpose of the provisions of the
A motion to reconsider was laid on the
the Judiciary.
bill prohibiting ex parte communications
table.
Under the rule, the gentlewoman from
is to insure that agency decisions re-
New York (Ms. ABZUG), the gentleman
quired to be made on a public record
from New York (Mr. HORTON), the gen-
are not influenced by private, off-the-
PERMISSION FOR SUBCOMMITTEE
tleman from Alabama (Mr. FLOWERS),
record communications from those per-
ON MILITARY COMPENSATION OF
and the gentleman from California (Mr.
sonally interested in the outcome.
COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES
MOORHEAD), will each be recognized for
SUMMARY OF MAJOR PROVISIONS OF THE
TO MEET THIS AFTERNOON AND
30 minutes.
LEGISLATION
TOMORROW MORNING, JULY 29,
The Chair recognizes the gentlewoman
I. OPEN MEETINGS
1976, DURING 5-MINUTE RULE
from New York (Ms. ABZUG).
The open meeting provisions would
Mr. O'BRIEN. Mr. Speaker, I ask unan-
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I yield
apply to approximately 50 Federal agen-
imous consent that the Subcommittee on
myself such time as I may consume.
cies that are presently covered by the
Military Compensation of the Committee
(Ms. ABZUG asked and was given per-
Freedom of Information Act and the
on Armed Services be permitted to meet
mission to revise and extend her re-
Privacy Act, and are headed by a body
during the time the House is proceeding
marks.)
of two or more members, a majority of
H 7868
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
July 28, 1976
requires that in place of each deletion,
ceeding on the merits by the violator,
closed meetings even more than open meet-
the agency must explain the reason and
but where the violator can demonstrate
ings there must be a check against inacqurate
the statutory authority therefor. The
that the violation was inadvertent, the
or incomplete minutes.
Judiciary Committee has recommended
imposition of so drastic a sanction would
TRANSCRIPT EXEMPTION
that this provision be deleted, but we are
be arbitrary and not proper.
The third amendment would exempt SEC
opposed to their amendment and will
GENERAL PROVISIONS
and the Federal Reserve Board from the
request a separate vote on it when the
transcript requirement.
bill is read for amendment under the 5-
Section 5 makes two amendments of a
SEC/BANKING AGENCY EXEMPTION
minute rule. For meetings that are open
conforming nature, and section 6 pro-
The fourth amendment would be generic
to the public-and the idea of the bill is
vides that the bill shall take effect 180
description have the practical effect of ex-
that most agency meetings will be
days after its enactment and that im-
cluding the SEC and banking agencies.
open-only minutes of the meeting need
plementing regulations shall be promul-
There is no logical or equitable reason for
be kept.
gated prior to the effective date.
either amendment and the amendments are
Subsection (g) requires agencies to
Mr. Chairman, I include the-following
particularly offensive because they are new
letters in support of the pending legis-
examples of the FED'S consistent attempts
promulgate regulations implementing
the legislation.
lation for the further information of
to arrogantly transcend accountability.
Subsection (h) provides for judicial
the Members:
Finally, we would like to emphasize our
active support of an amendment which we
CONSUMER FEDERATION OF AMERICA,
review of alleged violations of the open
understand will be introduced by you, Rep.
Washington, D.C., July 28, 1976.
meeting provisions. A plaintiff may sue
Fascell. That amendment would require that
Hon. BELLA S. ABZUG,
where the meeting is held, where the
at anytime there is a "deletion" from the
Hon. DANTE B. FASCELL,
agency has its headquarters, or in Wash-
transcript, there must be submitted a written
U.S. House of Representatives,
statutory citation to that section of the law
ington, D.C. If the court finds that a
Washington, D.C.
which would allow such a deletion. This
meeting has been closed unlawfully, it
DEAR REPRESENTATIVES ABZUG AND FASCELL:
amendment will ensure an additional meas-
may enjoin future violations or order the
Consumer Federation of America, the nation's
ure of accountability into the bill.
release of such portions of the transcript
largest consumer organization representing
Sincerely,
as do not contain exempt information. A
more than 30 million consumers, enthusi-
CAROL TUCKER FOREMAN,
court acting solely under this section
astically supports the Government in the
Executive Director.
Sunshine Act (HR 11656).
may not invalidate the substantive
KATHLEEN F. O'REILLY,
It is no secret that public confidence in
Legislative Director.
agency action taken at the meeting in
government is at an all time low. A major
question, even if it was unlawfully closed.
source of citizen cynicism is the growing con-
JULY 27, 1976.
In a judicial proceeding for review of a
viction that government decisions are often
DEAR REPRESENTATIVE: This week the
substantive agency action, the reviewing
made behind closed doors with access and
House will vote on the Government in the
court may consider, under 5 U.S.C. 706,
input being too frequently the exclusive
Sunshine legislation, H.R. 11656, which has
whether the provisions of this bill have
privilege of well-financed special interest
been reported by both the Government Op-
been complied with.
groups. The public recognizes the transpar-
erations and Judiciary Committees follow-
Subsection (i) authorizes an award of
ence of the standard government position
ing thorough hearings and committee de-
that It can only conduct business effectively
attorney fees to a party suing under this
bate. We urge you to support this legislation
if its proceedings are closed to the public.
section who substantially prevails. Costs
which provides for open meetings in multi-
The legislation which will be considered
member executive branch agencies and sets
may be assessed against a plaintiff only
today is a sensible and drastically needed
uniform standards for ex parte contacts. We
where he has initiated the action pri-
step in the direction of providing citizens
also urge you to oppose the four Arthur
marily for frivolous and dilatory pur-
with the opportunity to better scrutinize the
Burns amendments to be offered by Rep-
poses.
vast number of meetings conducted daily at
resentative Horton and to support the Fas-
Subsection (j) requires annual agency
multi-member agencies. It also recognizes the
cell amendment.
importance of establishing procedures for
reports to Congress on compliance with
In testimony more than ten years ago,
ex-parte communications.
this section.
prior to enactment of the Freedom of In-
We are actively opposed to a series of
Subsection (k) provides that this act
formation Act, the Federal Reserve testified
amendments whose architect is Arthur Burns
that an information act would impair the
does not affect rights under the Freedom
and whose sponsor will undoubtedy be Rep.
Board's effectiveness both as an instrument
of Information Act, except that the
Frank Horton.
of national economic policy and as a regula-
transcripts made under this act are to
1. DEFINITION OF MEETING
tory body. In the 94th Congress Arthur
be governed by this act.
The first amendment would restructure
Burns made similar predictions of doom
Subsection (1) provides that this sec-
the definition of meeting in such a way that
about the Sunshine bill, although he ad-
tion does not constitute authority to
If the announced purpose of the agency
mitted in public testimony that the Fed-
withhold information from Congress and
meeting was not to "conduct business" the
eral Reserve Board has had no problem
meeting would not be classified as an "open
under the Freedom of Information Act, a
does not authorize the closing of any
meeting otherwise required to be open.
meeting" which the public could auto-
statute of similar purpose and design. In
matically attend. Clearly this amendment
spite of this admission, Burns has Jobbied
Subsection (m) provides that nothing
could and would be used by agency officials
strenuously to remove the Board from the
herein allows an agency to withhold from
bill. He failed in the Senate and he falled
intent on thwarting the goal of this legis-
an individual a record otherwise avail-
lation. How easy it will be to camouflage a
in both House Committees. He should not
able to him under the Privacy Act.
business meeting behind some non-business
succeed on the House floor.
sounding announced topic. With no objective
The following four weakening amend-
Subsection (n) provides that if any
standard to determine what is 8 meeting "to
ments which will be proposed on the floor
meeting is subject to both this act and
the Federal Advisory Committee Act, the
conduct business" the ability for judicial re-
are overlapping because they are all de-
provisions of this act shall govern.
view of agency abuse will, practically speak-
signed to accomplish the same goal: com-
ing, be non-existent.
plete or partial exemption of the banking
EX PARTE COMMUNICATIONS
agencies.
MINUTES vs. VERBATIM TRANSCRIPTS
1. Definition of Meetings: The bill as re-
Section 4 contains the provisions of
The second amendment would permit the
ported defines a meeting which must be
the bill regarding ex parte communica-
taking of minutes as opposed to the require-
open in terms of what actually occurs-
tions. It prohibits anyone having an in-
ment of a verbatim transcript at "closed"
whether agency business is conducted or
terest in a proceeding to make an ex
meetings. Minutes taken by the most com-
disposed of. This is an objective standard
parte communication to an agency deci-
petent of people are no substitute for the
about which there can be little dispute-
sionmaking official relative to the merits
comprehensive verbatim transcript. For ex-
either business was conducted or it was not.
ample, a particular monologue, dialogue or
of a proceeding once the proceeding has
The agenda for the meeting will state what
phraseology may at the time of the actual
is intended to be accomplished, but any
been noticed for a hearing. Communica-
meeting seem inconsequential and conse-
determination of whether the provisions of
tions made in violation of this prohibi-
quently either be omitted from the minutes
the bill apply will be governed by what actu-
tion are to be placed upon the public
or paraphrased. Yet later that very issue may
ally took place. If during a meeting a subject
record.
be extremely important to affected persons.
comes up which Is covered by one of the 10
For a violation of the prohibition, an
The participants and the public should never
exemptions in the bill, the agency can move
agency would have discretion to impose
have to rely on minutes of the proceedings.
into executive session, a routine procedure.
If the issue is serious enough to warrant be-
The Burns amendment, in contrast, would
sanctions. In an extraordinary instance,
ing discussed at a meeting, any discussion
allow a determination of whether the bill
these could even include loss of the pro-
at that meeting should be transcribed. In
applied on the basis of the intended pur-
FORD
LIBRARY
1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
7869
1
Thus,
If
the
intended
of closed meetings. This is an important reg-
(Mr. HORTON asked and was given
courate
the meeting is not to conduct the
ulatory reform amendment to permit accurate
permission to revise and extend his
it gets conducted anyway,
oversight of agency decisions. Without such
remarks.)
provisions would not apply.
minimal information, citizens will have no
amendment would encourage
knowledge of why the meeting was closed
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
pt SEC
am the
to avoid open meetings to
and will be put in the position of challeng-
subscribe wholeheartedly to the objec-
for one purpose and
ing the agency willy-nilly or not at all. The
tives of this legislation. The public's
for another. The public has had
Freedom of Information Act requires an
faith in the integrity of Government
in government without
agency to give a citizen an explicit reason
rests on public understanding of the rea-
generic
and citation for denial of information. This
sons for governmental decisions, and on
of ex-
11 are seriously worried that the
has not only not been a burden; it has
the accountability of Government offi-
S.
be interpreted as applying to in-
streamlined the operation of the Act. There
has been no showing it would not similarly
cials for those decisions which set legis-
son for
conversations between commission
nts are
apply here, and without such a requirement
lative or administrative policies which
at social events or on the golf
are new
they can easily have a colloquy to
in the Sunshine Act there will be no ability
impact on the Nation as a whole. How-
tempts
the legislative history.
by the public or the Congress to oversee the
ever, as recognized in the declaration of
2. Verbatim Transcripts or Recordings: The
discretionary actions of the federal agencies.
policy of H.R. 11656, the public is not
lze our
as reported requires a verbatim record-
Sincerely,
necessarily served by complete and un-
iich we
or transcript be made of any meeting
JOAN CLAYBROOK.
fettered disclosure of all Government de-
11, Rep.
which is closed under the exemptions in the
are that
Mr. MARTIN. Madam Chairman, will
cisionmaking processes. The words "full-
bill, and the subsequent public release of
om the
any portions which it turns out are not
the gentlewoman yield?
est practicable information" as used in
written
subject to the exemptions.
Ms. ABZUG. I yield to the gentleman
the bill indicate the need for certain sen-
the law
The Burns amendment would delete any
from North Carolina.
sible limitations.
1. This
requirement for recordings or transcripts
(Mr. MARTIN asked and was given
My principal concern is that the Con-
meas-
and substitute instead a requirement for
permission to revise and extend his re-
gress which has enacted the two basic
minutes. Anyone who has ever attended a
marks.)
planks for Federal information policies,
board of directors meeting knows what min-
Mr. MARTIN. Madam Chairman, let
the Freedom of Information Act and the
utes are. They bear little resemblance to the
me thank the gentlelady from New York,
Privacy Act, should adopt a sunshine bill
content of the meeting and contain only what
the distinguished chairman of the sub-
which is consistent with the principles
the attendees want to reveal.
ector.
In addition to the obvious deficiencies of
committee, for yielding to me.
laid down in the two landmark bills we
summary minutes, there are strong reasons
In order to clarify subsection 3(c) of
have already enacted. The bill before you
1976.
for taking transcripts or recordings at closed
this bill, H.R. 11656, in this subsection are
does not fully meet this standard since
k the
meetings. Any discussions covering non-ex-
set forth some 10 standards that would
it erodes the clarity and firmness of the
in the
empt material which the public is entitled
qualify an agency to close its meeting to
FOI Act exemptions, and threatens to
ich has
to know can subsequently be released ver-
batim. If the closing of the meeting is chal-
the public and not disclose its delibera-
erode the privacy protections we have
nt Op-
follow-
lenged, the court in camera can tell exactly
tions.
erected for those involved in adjudica-
tee de-
whether the meeting should or should not
When I served as county commissioner
tions before collegial agencies.
station
have been closed and make a definitive ruling
in Mecklenburg, N.C., we adopted a sim-
I believe that a number of provisions
multi-
to guide future actions. And, disclosure of
ilar policy requiring open meetings-sub-
of H.R. 11656 are inconsistent with the
nd sets
the transcript is the only remedy in the bill
ject to certain reasonable exceptions. One
declaration of policy contained in the
cts. We
for improper closing of a meeting. Many
Arthur
state laws have far harsher remedies. Twenty-
exception which we found to be essential
bill itself, and that these provisions
four of the 49 state sunshine laws have crim-
to our duties was the consideration of
would permit or mandate disclosures
y Rep-
which would injure the rights of individ-
Inal penalties for improper closing of meet-
prospective real estate transactions. We
10 Fas-
Ings, and 19 can render the actions taken at
knew that if we publicly discussed pro-
uals and injure the ability of the Gov-
an improperly closed meeting void or void-
posals to purchase or lease land or fa-
ernment to carry out its responsibilities.
rs ago,
of In-
able. H.R. 11656 has no similar provisions.
cilities and disclosed any details about
I addressed my concerns with several
estified
The only remedy is release of the transcript
it, the price of that land or facility would
specific provisions of H.R. 11656 in the
air the
or recording. Deletion of this provision will
be an incentive for avoidance of the law.
rise. That would especially be true if
Committee on Government Operations,
rument
the owner/seller could see how much we
and in a statement filed with the Sub-
regula-
And there is no evidence that an agency
might be willing to pay, or that our al-
committee on Administrative Law and
Arthur
which has transcripts or recordings of closed
doom
meetings will allow their improper release
ternative opportunities were limited or
Governmental Relations of the Commit-
any more than they now allow improper re-
that we were especially anxious to buy.
tee on the Judiciary.
he ad-
e Fed-
lease of documents (such improper release
So we closed our meetings until we could
At that time, I took issue with the fol-
also subjects a person to criminal penalties
get an option on one or more properties.
lowing features of H.R. 11656: First, the
roblem
under Title 18 of the U.S. Code).
Act, a
3. Transcripts or Recordings for the Fed
In examining subparagraph 3(c) (9)
verbatim transcripts requirement for
and SEC: This amendment is a variation on
(B) of this bill, I find language which
closed meetings, second, the definition of
gn. In
lobbled
"agency," third, the definition of "meet-
number 2. It would prohibit transcripts or
may or may not allow this principle. Sub-
m the
recordings at meetings closed because of ex-
paragraph (9b) protects "information
ing," fourth, the identification of persons
failed
emption 9(A), that is an agency which regu-
the premature disclosure of which would
expected to attend a closed meeting,
Id not
lates currencies, securities, commodities, or
fifth, the prescribed venue for actions
significantly frustrate implementa-
financial institutions and the information
unend-
tion of a proposed agency action." I
brought under this legislation, sixth, the
would be likely to lead to significant financial
e floor
would ask my colleague whether it is in-
personal liability of individual agency
speculation or significantly endanger the sta-
officials, and seventh, the unfettered dis-
all de-
bility of any financial institution. The defi-
tended to include under this exception
closure of all ex parte communications.
com-
ciencies in the amendment are the same as
the preliminary discussion of proposed
Since then certain improvements have
anking
for number 2. It just applies to fewer
real estate transactions.
been made by the Judiciary Committee,
agencies.
Ms. ABZUG. To answer the gentleman
as re-
but serious problems still exist. But I feel
4. Exemption of Banking Agencies: The
ust be
from North Carolina (Mr. MARTIN),
final Burns amendment would exempt from
it is possible to amend the bill in a way
Madam Chairman, I think there is no
cours-
the bill any agency responsible for national
that would let every bit as much sunshine
ted or
question that subsection (9) (B), which
monetary policy or regulation of financial
behind the doors of Government agency
andard
institutions except for certain programs such
reads: "(B) in the case of any agency,
deliberations and provide a brand of sun-
pute-
as truth-in-lending, fair credit reporting,
be likely to significantly frustrate imple-
shine which is less clouded by procedural
as not.
fair housing, equal credit, and home mort-
mentation of a proposed agency ac-
redtape and confusion than that created
e what
gage disclosure. There is no rational basis
tion
would cover very well the
by H.R. 11656.
it any
for exemption of these agencies which have
circumstance which the gentleman from
ons of
If the Judiciary Committee amend-
for so long tried to hide from public view
North Carolina (Mr. MARTIN) describes.
actu-
while at the same time impacting the lives
ments are adopted my remaining differ-
ubject
of citizens.
Mr. MARTIN. Madam Chairman, I
ences with the bill concern primarily the
the 10
Finally, one important corrective amend-
thank the gentlewomàn from New York
verbatim transcript requirement and the
1 move
ment which we urge you to support will be
for that answer, and I appreciate the
definition of meeting and at an appro-
bedure.
offered by Representative Dante Fascell to
gentlewoman's yielding.
priate time I shall offer an amendment
would
require a reason and statutory authority for
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
to each of these provisions.
10 bill
deletions from the transcripts or recordings
yield myself such time as I may consume.
The verbatim transcript requirement
I pur-
7870
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD
July 28, 1976
of H.R. 11656 as reported by the Gov-
tions and the possibility of later dis-
the bill; the administrative burden of
ernment Operations Committee could
closure will inhibit full exchange of
preparing a verbatim transcript of each
effectively destroy the provisions of the
views on sensitive issues.
closed meeting, of deleting exempt por-
bill which permit certain meetings to be
I do not subscribe to the position that
tions and of providing a copy of the re-
closed. While the provisions of the bill
the transcript requirement is essential
mainder to the public will be significant
enable an agency to delete, by recorded
to the enforceability of the act and I feel
Let me not be misunderstood. My
vote at a subsequent meeting, sensitive
that a reasonable compromise can be
amendments are not intended to weaken
portions of a transcript, they also require
worked out in this area along the lines
the disclosure requirements of the bill
the agency to furnish the public what,
of an amendment that I plan to intro-
but rather to improve it by achieving a
in effect, are summaries of the deleted
duce at an appropriate time. The
balance between the disclosure require-
portions. In the case of agencies involved
amendment would substitute minutes for
ments and the need for government to
in the regulation of financial institu-
verbatim transcripts or electronic re-
operate effectively. Neither complete con-
tions, for example, harmful inferences
cordings. The discovery procedures
fidentiality nor complete disclosure is de-
drawn from the deletions could result
available to U.S. district courts do not
sirable and we need to guard against the
in market speculation or damage to the
depend upon the availability of verbatim
temptation to overcompensate for past
stability of our financial markets and
transcripts or electronic recordings of
secrecy in today's morbid climate of dis-
institutions.
agency meetings. While the concepts
trust and suspicion.
The possibility of later disclosure of a
embodied in H.R. 11656 stem from "sun-
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman, I
verbatim transcript will inhibit free dis-
shine" or "open meeting" statutes of the
yield myself such time as I may consume.
cussion about sensitive matters and thus
States, none of the 49 State statutes,
(Mr. FLOWERS asked and was given
impair the decisionmaking process in in-
so far as I can determine, has a ver-
permission to revise and extend his re-
stances where candor is essential.
batim transcript requirement for either
marks.)
Moreover, the effect of the transcript
open or closed meetings.
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman, I
requirement of the bill when coupled
Meetings covered by the bill should be
shall be very brief here. Our committee,
with relevant procedural requirements
those gatherings for the purpose of con-
the Committee on the Judiciary, and the
would lead to a situation bordering on
ducting official agency business of at
subcommittee which I chair, the Subcom-
the ridiculous.
least the number of individual agency
mittee on Administrative Law and Gov-
The bill provides that votes to close
members required to take final action
ernmental Relations, was referred this
meetings must be cast in person, no
on behalf of the agency. The meeting
bill on a sequential basis.
proxies being permitted. Thus a meeting
definition in both versions of H.R. 11656
The gentleman from Texas, the distin-
must be held to vote on closing a subse-
would apply even to casual or social en-
guished chairman of the Committee on
quent meeting or meetings, and another
counters which were not gatherings for
Government Operations, and I, as well
meeting must be held to vote on any
the purpose of acting in behalf of the
as other Members have been somewhat
change in the time, place, or subject mat-
agency. The Judiciary Committee version
concerned in the last year and a half over
ter of a meeting already announced.
is the more burdensome and refers to
what we have gotten ourselves into with
When these procedural requirements
any "assembly or simultaneous com-
dual reference and sequential reference.
are coupled with the verbatim transcript
munication." Accordingly, I shall offer
I am afraid that unless we straighten out
or electronic recording requirements, the
an amendment to narrow the definition
our proceedings in this regard before the
prospect is one of mind-boggling infinity.
to cover meetings for the purpose of
organization of the next Congress, we are
Thus, when a meeting is properly closed,
conducting agency business.
going to find a whole lot of redundant
the complete transcript or electronic re-
I feel that venue for actions brought
work being done in the 95th Congress
cording of the proceedings must be made
under this legislation should be limited
like it has been done in the 94th Con-
available to the public except for such
in accordance with language in the Ju-
gress. I hope that someone with more
portions determined by a recorded vote
diciary Committee amendments, that is
wisdom than I can figure out the solu-
to fall within the exemptive provisions.
to the district in which the agency in
tion while maintaining the jurisdictional
In order to avoid the disclosure of such
question has its headquarters or where
integrity of the various committees. But
portions of the transcript, the meeting
the meeting in question occurred or in
I think were it not for the fact that the
called to discuss, consider and vote on
the District Court for the District of
gentleman from Texas is in the peculiar
the proposed deletions must also be
Columbia. The bill as reported by the
situation of being the ranking Democrat
closed pursuant' to the procedural re-
Committee on Government Operations
on the Committee on the Judiciary and
quirements cited above. Since this meet-
permits such actions to be brought also
the chairman of the distinguished Com-
ing would be closed to consider informa-
where the plaintiff resides or has his prin-
mittee on Government Operations as
tion coming within the exemptive pro-
cipal place of business. This could lead to
well, thereby having a position of lead-
visions of the bill, the complete trans-
duplicative lawsuits spread across the
ership on both committees having juris-
script or electronic recording of such
country covering the same agency meet-
diction not only of this legislation but of
meeting must also be made available
ing or meetings
some previous legislation, we could have
to the public except for those portions
I oppose the provisions of H.R. 11656
had some problems in the handling of the
determined by a recorded vote to fall
as reported by Government Operations
bill. Of course, I always welcome the op-
within the exemptive provisions. Again,
imposing personal liability on individual
portunity of working with my distin-
in order to avoid the disclosure of such
agency members for attorney's fees and
guished friend from Texas, but we both
portions of the transcript of the second
court costs. Th assessment of attorney
agree that there is too much ground to
closed meeting, a third meeting called to
fees and other litigation costs personally
be plowed for us to be going over each
consider and vote on the proposed dele-
against individual members of an agency
other's work.
tions stemming from the second meeting
can only lead to a further diminution of
Mr. BROOKS. Madam Chairman, will
must be closed, and the transcript of
the rewards of public service. This pro-
the gentleman yield?
that meeting must be examined at a
vision would not only discourage qual-
Mr. FLOWERS. I yield to the gentle-
fourth closed meeting and so on and on
ified persons from accepting agency ap-
man from Texas.
ad infinitum. Obviously, some rule of
pointments, but would inhibit perform-
Mr. BROOKS. I thank the gentleman
reason must prevail in the implementa-
ance of official duties by those in office.
for yielding.
tion of such a provision, but the letter
The Judiciary Committee amendment
I want to commend the gentleman
of the law, if observed, would be paraly-
prudently deletes this requirement.
from Alabama for doing a splendid job
tic in its effect.
It is not possible to estimate the costs
on the Committee on the Judiciary in
The Judiciary Committee amendments
of complying with the provisions of H.R.
handling this legislation, and I want
eliminate the requirement for agency
11656. Certainly the time of a majority
to say that I share with him a feeling
members to vote upon deletions from
of the entire membership of an agency
that this is a duplicating effort on the
transcripts and the requirement that
spent in the repeated voting sessions at-
part of Congress.
agencies provide explanations of the rea-
tendant upon closed meetings; the time
Mr. BROOKS. We refer a bill to the
sons for deletions and the exemption
spent by lawyers and other staff mem-
"A Committee," it works up a bill, the
relied upon. However, harmful infer-
bers examining documents; litigation
subcommittee has hearings, the legis-
ences can still be drawn from the dele-
costs arising from actions created by
lation is reported by the full committee,
1976
1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD
H 7871
den of
the bill goes to the Rules Com-
NESS), and we will proceed on those
mation authorized to be withheld by stat-
of each
to come to the House, and then in
amendments.
ute. Prior to the amendment, only those
pt por-
to make up our mind here
I understand that there will be objec-
statutes which "required" the with-
the re-
to vote for it or not. It is a du-
tion on the part of the Government Op-
holding of information would authorizé
ificant.
of effort: confusing bother-
erations on this side of the aisle to one
the closing. By the insertion of the words
d. My
generally a pain,
of the amendments that is in the pack-
"or permitted", many statutes which now
weaken
and often ineffective when
age of the substitute. The gentleman
permit the withholding of information
he bill
to send legislation to another
from Florida (Mr. FASCELL) will offer an
but allow judgment or discretion will be
eving a
and start over through the
amendment to the substitute at one point
given force and effect. This amendment
equire-
dealing with the transcript, and then we
is consistent with the language and pur-
ent to
I say I hope when this new Con-
will proceed as quickly as possible on
pose of those statutes which provide the
te con-
we can change this sequen-
each one of these things and finish the
basic authority for such withholding.
is de-
because the time has come
matter in a very short time.
Exception (7) of subsection (c) con-
nst the
we have bills referred to four or
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, if
cerns the closing of meetings in order to
or past
committees. If we want to get any-
the gentleman will yield again, I feel that
avoid disclosure of investigatory records
of dis-
thing done in Congress that is not the
is a very expeditious way to handle this
compiled for law enforcement purposes.
way to do it. I want to say I share the
matter because it would be very compli-
The exceptions in this bill were pat-
man, I
feelings of my friend, the gentleman
cated if we have to handle it by amend-
terned after the Freedom of Information
nsume.
from Alabama (Mr. FLOWERS) on this
ment, but with the substitute we would
Act as set forth in the Administrative
S given
particular subject.
have the entire bill as passed by the
Procedure Act provisions of title 5 of
his re-
Mr. FLOWERS. We have now before
Government Operations Committee as
the United States Code in section 552.
our subcommittee a bill that is referred
amended by the Judiciary Committee,
That section concerns written records.
man, I
to four committees for the purposes of
and we can exercise our will on that
This bill has a slightly different orienta-
mittee.
those matters under the jurisdiction of
basis.
tion and concerns the right of the public
and the
the several committees. As the gentle-
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman,
to observe agency meetings at which in-
abcom-
man knows this generally means that
meetings of agencies subject to the pro-
formation will be given in oral discus-
d Gov-
when one has a bite at the apple he just
visions of this bill are to be open to pub-
sions. This amendment makes a neces-
ed this
takes a look at the apple and takes the
lic observation unless information being
sary clarification as to the exception SO
bite from the place where it looks best.
discussed at the meeting falls within an
that it applies to information which, if
distin-
We are not always going to be on the
express exception. Public awareness and
written, would be contained in such in-
ttee on
receiving end of this matter, because the
interest in Government are important in
vestigatory records.
as well
last time we had an issue between two
our democratic procedures. This bill, by
Exception (9) permits the closing of
newhat
committees it was our committee that
promoting increased openness in Govern-
meetings when the premature disclosure
alf over
had primary jurisdiction and the Gov-
ment, should lead to improved decision-
of certain information could lead to fi-
to with
ernment Operations Committee had the
making and greater accountability on the
nancial speculation, endanger the sta-
erence.
second bite, SO this is just an evening out
part of the Government.
bility of a financial institution, or frus-
ten out
process and in working with the leader-
The Committee on the Judiciary was
trate the implementation of a proposed
ore the
ship on both sides we hope to circum-
referred this bill on a sequential basis
agency action. In the latter case, the ex-
we are
vent this problem of redundancy in the
and prior to the Committee on the Ju-
ception would not be available after the
undant
future.
diciary reporting the bill, the bill had
content or nature of the agency action
ongress
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, will
been the subject of a report by the Com-
had already been disclosed to the pub-
h Con-
the gentleman yield?
mittee on Government Operations. Since
lic. Amendments were added by the com-
h more
Mr. FLOWERS. I yield to the gentle-
the two committees are in essential
mittee to clarify the exception by ex-
le solu-
man from New York.
agreement on the bill, I will confine my
press language as to the time when the
ictional
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman,
remarks to the amendments proposed by
exception would no longer be available.
es. But
would the gentleman explain to the
the Committee on the Judiciary.
This was done by providing it would not
hat the
House and to the committee what he in-
First, the committee recommended a
be available after the disclosure or after
beculiar
tends to do with regard to the action
change in the definition of "meeting" as
public notice of rulemaking as provided
mocrat
taken by the Judiciary Committee?
provided in new section 552b added to
in the Administrative Procedure Act.
ary and
What is his intention?
title 5 by the bill. As SO amended, the
Paragraph (f) of subsection (d) per-
di Com-
Mr. FLOWERS. If the gentleman will
term "meeting" would mean an assembly
mits the closing of meetings pursuant to
ons as
allow me to proceed, I will speak very
or simultaneous communication con-
agency rules in certain instances where
of lead-
briefly to the merits and what I intend
cerning the join conduct or disposition
a majority of the business would justify
g juris-
to do here this afternoon.
of agency business by two or more, but at
closing, in other words, meetings that fit
1 but of
We had sequential reference in our
least a number of individual agency
certain categories. The committee added
Id have
committee and we then went over the
members required to take action on be-
a clarificaion to better identify the
g of the
entire bill with a view to making what-
half of the agency. There would be an
meetings subject to the exception and
the op-
ever amendments we deemed to be ap-
exception for meetings required to de-
this was done by deleting the words "of
distin-
propriate. We did make about 10 or 11
cide matters covered by subsection (d),
the portions" where the original language
we both
amendments, some of them more or
the subsection concerning the closing of
would have required that a majority of
bund to
less technical in nature and some 3 or 4
meetings. The meetings covered by the
the portions of agency meetings would
er each
rather substantive in nature. I intend
exception would concern matters which
have to be closed in order to permit clos-
at the appropriate time to offer an
are procedural in nature and involve de-
ing by rules, and substituting therefor,
an, will
amendment in the nature of a substitute
cisions in voting on closed meetings and
the majority of meetings for the same
which will embody all of the amendments
on announcement of meetings. Such
purpose, it being very difficult to deter-
gentle-
that were approved by the Judiciary
meetings could not include the conduct
mine a majority of "portions" of meet-
Committee as well as those amendments
or disposition of any other agency busi-
ings.
itleman
that were approved by the Government
ness. The committee also recommended
TRANSCRIPT REQUIREMENT
Operations Committee. There would then
an amendment to subsection (b) to add
Subsection (f) of the new section con-
itleman
be no committee amendments to the bill
language providing that agency members
cerning transcripts of closed meetings
did job
coming from either committee.
cannot jointly conduct or dispose of
and requires that a complete transcript
dary in
Then the parliamentary situation, as
agency business other than as provided
or an electronic recording which is ade-
I want
this Member would understand it, is at
in new section 552b. The amended sub-
quate to record the proceeding shall be
feeling
that point the substitute would be sub-
section would not preclude agencies from
made of each agency meeting or portion
on the
ject to amendment. The gentleman has
disposing of noncontroversial matters by
of a meeting closed to the public with
some amendments, I know the gentleman
written circulations.
the single exception of meetings closed to
to the
from California (Mr. MOORHEAD), the
The subcommittee added the words "or
the public pursuant to paragraph 10 of
bill, the
ranking minority member on the sub-
permitted" to exception (3) of subsec-
subsection (c). The committee consid-
legis-
committee has some amendments, as well
tion (c), which is the exception permit-
ered the difficulties incident to the re-
mittee,
as the gentleman from Ohio (Mr. KIND-
ting closing of meetings involving infor-
view of the transcript of closed meetings
H 7872
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD
July 28, 1976
required by the original provisions of
ever, the bill concerns meetings and mat-
ex parte communication, the agency, ad-
tic
the bill. The bill would have required
ters relating to meetings that have a def-
ministrative law judge, or presiding em-
m
that each deletion authorized by an ex-
inite relation to certain locations, and
ployee may require a party to show
of
ception in the section would be made by
the practical aspects concerning Govern-
cause why his claim or interest in the
to
recorded vote of the agency taken subse-
ment action and court consideration of
proceeding should not be denied, dis-
Hc
quent to the meeting. It was-pointed out
these matters make it logical to provide
missed, or disre arded, or otherwise be
ag
this would require a considerable ex-
venue in the district where the agency is
acted upon adversely.
da
penditure of the time of the senior offi-
held, where the agency has its headquar-
As introduced, the bill would have also
in
cials of the agency and that this would
ters, or in the District Court for the Dis-
amended the Freedom of Information
the
be cumbersome and time consuming. It
trict of Columbia.
Act provisions of section 552(b) (3) to
It
was determined that the intent of the
SCOPE OF JUDICIAL REVIEW
limit the exception for information
do
bill could be adequately carried out by
Subsection (i) of subsection 552b as
covered by statutes to only information
me
deleting this provision and similarly de-
contained in the bill referred to the com-
covered by statutes which require that
our
leting the provision requiring a written
mittee would have provided that any
information of a particular type or cri-
suc
explanation of the reason and statutory
Federal court otherwise authorized by
teria be withheld. This would not pro-
unf
basis for each deletion.
law to review agency action could on ap-
vide an exception for statutes which per-
imp
These amendments would not change
plication of any person properly partic-
mit the agency to determine whether
Sun
the requirements of the section making
ipating in the judicial review proceedings
such information should be released or
or
revised copies of the transcript or tran-
inquire into the violations of the require-
not. The amendment was made because
bilit
scription of the electronic recordings
ments of the section and afford any relief
the language is unduly restrictive. For
M
available to any person upon payment of
deemed appropriate. The committee rec-
example, the section concerning release
erni
the cost of duplication or its transcrip-
ommends deletion of this language. It
of atomic energy information permits a
attr.
tion. Further, it is provided that if the
was concluded that the provisions of sec-
continuous review of restricted data to
to
agency determines it to be in the public
tion 706 of title 5 of the Administrative
permit declassification where informa-
one
interest, the material can be made avail-
Procedure Act provides adequate author-
tion may be declassified "without undue
cert:
able to the public without cost. The com-
ity to inquire into the matters apparently
risk to the common defense and secu-
cann
plete verbatim copy of the transcription
referred to in original subsection (i).
rity" 42 U.S.C. 2162.
lic I
or the complete electronic recording of
Mr. Chairman, I urge the approval of
Section 706 concerns judicial review
tribu
each meeting closed to the public would
the bill with the amendments recom-
and details the basis for invalidating
legis
be maintained by the agency for at least
mended by the Committee on the
agency action. Item 2(d) as contained in
abou
2 years after the meeting or until 1 year
Judiciary.
that section authorizes a court to set
shine
after the conclusion of the agency pro-
Madam Chairman, I reserve the bal-
ceeding with respect to which the meet-
aside agency action which was taken
vehic
ance of my time.
"without observance of proceedings re-
agent
ing was held, whichever occurs later.
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
quired by law." In consideration of mat-
funct
COURT JURISDICTION UNDER SECTION 552b(h)
yield 10 minutes to the gentleman from
ters covered by this section, the courts,
H.F
Subsection (h) provides jurisdiction in
California (Mr. McCLOSKEY).
in reviewing actions, would then there-
mitte
the district courts of the United States
The CHAIRMAN. If there is no objec-
fore be prepared to proceed in accord-
towar
to enforce the requirements of sections
tion, the Chair would like to recognize
ance with their normal procedures under
ance
(b) through (f) of the new section. Such
the gentleman from California (Mr.
section 706. The weight to be given viola-
judici
MOORHEAD) for 30 minutes and then come
actions may be brought by any person
tions of the provisions of section 552b
the b
against the agency prior to or within 60
back to the gentleman from New York
would be considered as are other matters
tional
days after the meeting at which the
(Mr. HORTON).
covered by this provision in the Adminis-
impos:
alleged violation of the section occurred.
The Chair now recognizes the gentle-
attorn
trative Procedure Act. The reviewing
The time limit would be varied in the
man from California (Mr. MOORHEAD)
ficials
court would then be in a position to de-
for 30 minutes.
event that a public announcement of the
termine whether the violation was of
the Ju
Mr. MOORHEAD of California.
meeting had not been made in accord-
has 11
material prejudice to the party involved.
Madam Chairman, I yield myself such
ance with the requirements of the sec-
transc
EX PARTE PROCEEDINGS
time as I may consume.
tion. The original version of the bill
by allo
Section 4(a) of the bill adds a new
Mr. MORTON. Madam Chairman, will
would have provided jurisdiction in the
rial fr
subsection (d) (1) to section 557 of title
the gentleman yield?
courts to bring such actions against the
onerou
agency or its members. The committee
5, United States Code, concerning ex
Mr. MOORHEAD of California. I yield
is retai
parte communications in relation to
to the gentleman from New York.
recommended the deletion of the provi-
that th
sion for joinder of members for since the
adjudication and formal rulemaking
PARLIAMENTARY INQUIRY
be retai
subsection authorizes an action against
under the Administrative Procedure Act.
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, a
Final
the agency, there would be no necessity
Section 557 concerns decisions based on
parliamentary inquiry.
the Sup
to join individual members to gain court
the record of hearings conducted in ac-
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will
istrator
jurisdiction.
cordance with section 556. The new sub-
state the parliamentary inquiry.
(1975),
Further, the committee also amended
section (d) added by this bill would pro-
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, is it
It
the bill to delete the provision authoriz-
vide express limitations and procedures
the intention of the Chair to rotate?
ing ame
ing the assessment of court costs against
relating to ex parte communications
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, that is the in-
the Con
individual agency members. These
relative to the merits of agency pro-
tention of the Chair.
reive 1:
amendments remove the objection that
ceedings. The bar would apply to ex parte
Mr. HORTON. Would the gentleman
These at
individual agency members would be
communications relative to the merits
from California (Mr. MOORHEAD) then
islation
subjected to suit for official acts and pos-
of such proceeding by interested persons
have 30 minutes before I come back to
produce
sibly being assessed costs and attorneys
outside the agency made to agency per-
my time?
likely to
fees in these circumstances. In line with
sonnel involved or expected to be in-
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman will
burdens
these principles, the committee recom-
volved in the decisional process.
probably use a portion of that 30 minutes
officials.
mends the deletion of the provision in
Similarly, no such agency official could
himself. We will then come back to the
I also
original subsection (j) which would have
make an ex parte communication to an
gentlewoman from New York (Ms.
favorably
permitted the assessment of costs
interested party outside the agency. The
ABZUG) and to the gentleman from New
amendme
against individual members of an
incorporation of the new subsection in
York (Mr. HORTON).
good frie
agency.
section 557 results in the provisions being
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
man from
Objections were raised at the hearings
made applicable to adjudications and to
thank the Chair.
It comes
on the bill concerning the breadth of the
formal rulemaking. The language of the
(Mr. MOORHEAD of California asked
provisions concerning venue for actions
bill provides for communications or
and was given permission to revise and
authorized by the bill. The committee
memorandum of oral communications to
extend his remarks.)
concluded that there should be no lim-
be made a part of the public record of
Mr. MOORHEAD of California.
ernment
itation upon the jurisdiction provided in
the proceedings along with written re-
Madam Chairman, I yield myself such
specificity
the bill nor persons who could bring the
sponses and memorandums of oral re-
time as I may consume.
actions contemplated by the bill. How-
sponses. In the event there is such an
Madam Chairman, this piece of legisla-
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD - HOUSE
H 7873
tion that is before us has a very com-
ment of the gentleman from New York
what is being done by Federal agencies.
mendable goal, that is, to give the people
(Mr. HORTON) would accomplish that.
They need to know not only the final
of America an insight and information as
The gentleman from Ohio (Mr. KIND-
decisions, but the discussions which go
to the operation of our Government.
NESS), a member of our Judiciary Sub-
into those decisions.
However, this right also must be balanced
committee, also has a very important
Very few people would argue with the
against a very delicate scale as to the
amendment to offer to this legislation,
principle of Government in the sunshine.
damage and mischief that can be done
specifying which agencies are to be sub-
Actually, this is the cornerstone of our
in any given instance in holding back
ject to this act.
democracy. Without public access to in-
the effective operation of Government.
I will offer an amendment later on in
formation on governmental actions,
It must be balanced if we are going to
the debate which would provide that per-
there can be no adequate basis on which
do the job that is required of us. Govern-
sons bringing an action under this legis-
individual citizens can form judgments
ment in the sunshine is not logical if
lation must meet normal Federal court
and cast their votes for those who exer-
our Nation's security is compromised by
standing requirements.
cise the functions of Government.
such disclosures. Sunshine is blatantly
The legislation, as it is presently writ-
To the extent that secrecy exists in
unfair, perhaps unconstitutional, if it
ten, changes the present court rules to
Government, I believe that by and large
impinges upon individual privacy rights.
allow any individual, whether he has an
it is the product of inertia and the fol-
Sunshine is irrational if it interferes with
interest or not, to bring litigation. This
lowing of what seems at first glance to
or threatens our Nation's economic sta-
only causes a disruption of our entire
be the easiest expedient-that of with-
bility or the value of our currency.
court system. It allows professional liti-
holding information from the public.
My point is that the idea behind Gov-
gators to get involved for whatever pur-
After all, if the public does not know
ernment in the sunshine legislation is
poses they might want to, many times to
what happened or what has been done
attractive and valid only with respect
make a case for themselves or to make
it cannot fault the officials who are re-
to certain governmental activties. Every-
a financial benefit of some kind through
sponsible for such actions. Thus, the
one in this House knows that there are
encouraging groups to finance their
officials involved may feel that by ex-
certain activities of Government that
actions. I will offer an amendment which
cluding the public they can be safely
cannot and should not be in the pub-
will do away with this particular
immune from criticism if the results are
lic realm or released for general dis-
provision.
not favorable.
tribution. So, in drafting this type of
I believe that we have made some sub-
Yet, in the long run, such secrecy
legislation, we must be very careful
stantial steps toward improvement in
causes more problems than it solves.
about every detail of its impact. Sun-
the action of the Judiciary Committee,
Eventually, the truth usually loaks out,
shine legislation should not be used as a
and for that reason my comments on the
and when this happens after-the-fact,
vehicle to interfere with Government
sequential referral would not be the same
it breeds public distrust and condemna-
agencies in the valid performance of the
as some of my colleagues have been
tion which may be directed against
functions for which they were created.
earlier. I think in this particular case
officials other than those responsible for
H.R. 11656, as aniended by the Com-
we have made substantial improvements
any misdeeds. The whole Government
mittee on the Judiciary, goes a long way
in the case of sequential referrals. I
suffers when our people perceive that it
towards recognizing the important bal-
realize, however, that many times it does
is working secretly against them.
ance of which I am speaking. Both the
cause a delay in getting legislation be-
What we need is a means to shatter
judicial review and venue provisions in
fore the House.
the complacency of officials who need-
the bill have been improved. An irra-
My purpose here today is not to be ob-
lessly follow practices of secrecy and
tional and unnecessary punitive provision
structive to this legislation. I strongly
make it so difficult to operate in such a
imposing liability for court costs and
agree with the ideals and principles
manner that a policy of open govern-
attorneys' fees on individual agency of-
underlying Government in the sunshine
ment becomes the easy way out. Then
ficials has been removed. Importantly,
legislation. I do not want to hurt the
we will have true "government in the
the Judiciary version of this legislation
operation of our Government, and for
sunshine" as officials learn that open-
has made the controversial verbatim
that reason I am supporting the amend-
ing the decisionmaking process to the
transcript requirement more reasonable
ments I have already referred to.
public is not only harmless, but bene-
by allowing the deletion of exempt mate-
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I yield
ficial.
rial from meeting transcripts. If this
such time as he may consume to the
In seeking to open the conduct of pub-
onerous and contradictory requirement
gentleman from Florida (Mr. FASCELL).
lic business by Federal agencies, we in
is retained in the final bill, it is my hope
(Mr. FASCELL asked and was given
the Congress are asking no more than we
that the Judiciary modification will also
permission to revise and extend his re-
have already imposed on ourselves. In
be retained.
marks).
1973, the House adopted legislation
Finally, an unwise attempt to reverse
Mr. FASCELL Madam Chairman, I
which I cosponsored amending the rules
the Supreme Court's decision in Admin-
rise in support of H.R. 11656, the Gov-
istrator FAA V. Robertson, 422 U.S. 255
ernment in the Sunshine Act.
to strengthen the requirement for open
hearings and open committee meetings
(1975), has been altered.
As the principal sponsor of this legis-
It is mx hope that all of the improv-
lation in the House, I urge that it be
including meetings for the markup of
ing amendments added to H.R. 11656 by
adopted. The bill would make a long
legislation. Prior to that action, 56 per-
cent of House hearings and meetings
the Committee on the Judiciary will re-
overdue reform in our governmental op-
were open to the public in 1972. In con-
celve favorable action in this House.
erations so as to help restore confidence
among the public.
trast, under the stronger open meetings
These amendments would make this leg-
islation less ambiguous, less likely to
The bill has been carefully considered
rule adopted in the 93d Congress, 92 per-
for many years. It has been introduced
cent of all House committee hearings
produce extensive litigation, and far less
in the 92d, 93d, and 94th Congresses.
and markup sessions were open to the
likely to impose unrealistic and unfair
public in 1974.
burdens on Government agencies and
There have been many hearings by vari-
I have seen no drastic adverse conse-
officials.
ous committees in the House and Senate,
and there have been extensive contacts
quences as a result of the new congres-
I also strongly urge that the House
and consultations with the executive
sional open meetings policy. Instead, the
favorably consider additional improving
branch agencies affected.
legislative output has been stepped up,
amendments that will be offered by my
and we can point with pride to the fact
The Sunshine measure builds on long
rood friend and colleague, the gentle-
experience with the Freedom of Infor-
that any member of the public can find
man from New York (Mr. HORTON). As
out virtually all he wants to know about
mation Act, the Administrative Proce-
It comes to the floor, H.R. 11656 defines
dures Act, and the Privacy Act. It is
congressional actions, if not more than
"meeting" in a confusing and ambiguous
he wants to know.
coordinated with those Acts so as to form
manner. This definition is pivotal in the
understanding of the scope of the Gov-
a balanced and comprehensive informa-
The legislation before you would take
tion policy in the Federal Government.
similar action with respect to Federal
emment in the sunshine legislation. More
The basic justification for this legisla-
agency meetings. Some 50 agencies
is required and the amend-
tion is that citizens have a right to know
headed by more than one governing
member, appointed by the President and
7874
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
July 28, 1976
July 28,
will be deb
subject to Senate confirmation, come
contacted by the Federal Reserve Board
today is a sensible and drastically needed step
but I would
under its provisions. These include such
or by other agencies with respect to pro-
in the direction of providing citizens with
the House to
agencies as the Civil Aeronautics Board,
visions of the legislation. Each of their
the opportunity to better scrutinize the vast
the Federal Communications Commis-
objections was considered in both the
number of meetings conducted daily at
this legislat
sion, the Federal Maritime Commission,
multi-member agencies. It also recognizes
a particular
subcommitte and full Government Oper-
ations Committee, and further in the
the importance of establishing procedures
resentatives
the Federal Trade Commission, the In-
for ex-parte communications.
manship, be
terstate Commerce Commission, the
Judiciary Committee in many instances.
We are actively opposed to a series of
those instar
Securities and Exchange Commission,
We took votes on each objection. Some
amendments whose architect is Arthur Burns
the bill una
and others.
amendments were approved in line with
and whose sponsor will undoubtedly be Rep.
0. without S1
H.R. 11656 sets forth the policy that
agency recommendations. The others
Frank Horton.
When the 1
the public is entitled to the fullest prac-
were found to lack merit, after extensive
1. Definition of Meeting
praiseworth
ticable information regarding the deci-
debate. There have been one or two
The first amendment would restructure
there were
sionmaking processes of the Federal
subsequent matters raised, but on close
the definition of meeting in such a way that
Government. It is the purpose of the act
examination, there also lack merit.
if the announced purpose of the agency
which can P
to provide the public with such informa-
The bill sets forth a workable and
meeting was not to "conduct business" the
in the years
tion while protecting the rights of indi-
meeting would not be classified as an "open
nized.
practical system for opening up the
meeting" which the public could automati-
Conseque:
viduals and the ability of the Govern-
operations of the agencies to public
cally attend. Clearly this amendment could
amendment
ment to carry out its responsibilities.
scrutiny. It make no monumental
and would be used by agency officials intent
ment, the bi
Under the bill, agencies may close
changes, since to a large extent the bill
on thwarting the goal of this legislation.
than it seel
meetings if the matters to be discussed
will codify what agencies are already
How easy it will be to camouflage a business
this in a his
fall within 10 exempted areas. These
doing by regulation. In general, the
meeting behind some non-business sounding
areas include national defense and for-
agencies have no great problem with it.
announced topic. With no objective standard
It was or
eign policy, internal personnel practices,
to determine what is a meeting "to conduct
acted the In
Even the burden on agency heads for
information required or permitted to be
complying with the requirement of votes
business" the ability for judicial review of
ments, bec:
withheld by another statute, trade in-
on deletions has been exaggerated. This
agency abuse will, practically speaking, be
the excesses
non-existent.
formation, law enforcement records, and
could easily be done by circulating a tally
culminating
2. Minutes vs. Verbatim Transcripts
where the E
information used by agencies that regu-
sheet. No second meeting is required.
The second amendment would permit the
late the supervision of financial insti-
It is true that the Federal Reserve
stated that
taking of minutes as opposed to the require-
formation
tutions.
Board will probably never be satisfied
ment of a verbatim transcript at "closed"
These exemptions give ample leeway
with any legislation which seeks to open
meetings. Minutes taken by the most compe-
they had a)
to any agency to protect information
its operations even partially. The agen-
tent of people are no substitute for the com-
it and our SC
where there is a legitimate public inter-
cy would like to be excluded completely
prehensive verbatim transcript. For example,
which we
a particular monologue, dialogue or phrase-
est in secrecy. The exemptions generally
from the bill. Lacking that, it would
regard to to
ology may at the time of the actual meeting
parallel the Freedom of Information Act
like to avoid keeping a transcript. This
secrecy by
seem inconsequential and consequently
and are consistent with the sound cri-
is absurd. Even in the Congress, we keep
heat of an
either be omitted from the minutes or para-
teria developed through legislative study,
transcripts on all our meetings. We deal
phrased. Yet later that very issue may be
amendment
administrative experience, and judicial
with national security and other infor-
extremely important to affected persons. The
tion Act in
interpretation.
mation at least as sensitive as anything
participants and the public should never
enacted the
We have included provisions under
done by the Federal Reserve Board.
have to rely on minutes of the proceedings.
individuals
If the issue is serious enough to warrant
which a member of the public can go to
We have listened to everything the
the executiv
being discussed at a meeting, any discussion
court to challenge an agency's action
Board has said and have more than com-
In both of
at that meeting should be transcribed. In
closing a meeting or portion thereof.
promised by approving a specific exemp-
or criminal
closed meetings even more than open meet-
Reasonable attorney's fees may be
tion for financial regulatory agencies
ings there must be a check against inaccu-
Government
awarded to a successful plaintiff at the
which will enable them to close up any-
rate or incomplete minutes.
late either
discretion of the judge.
thing with significant information dis-
3. Transcript exemption
or who mig
In cases where meetings are closed to
cussed. To allow them to operate in to-
The third amendment would exempt SEC
for Govern
and the Federal Reserve Board from the tran-
tal secrecy without even keeping a tran-
not held OV
the public, the agency is required to keep
script requirement.
an electronic recording or transcript. In
script would be a serious mistake.
committee
4. SEC/Banking Agency Exemption
such cases, or where portions of meet-
The agencies' reasonable concerns
actual oper
The fourth amendment would by generic
have been accommodated. We have in-
Act or the
ings are closed, the original bill re-
description have the practical effect of ex-
quired that the agency explain the rea-
cluded a section on ex-parte contacts
cluding the SEC and banking agencies.
I think.
There is no logical or equitable reason for
about this
son and statutory authority and provide
which is not controversial. In short, the
a summary or paraphrase of the deleted
bill takes a fair and balanced approach
either amendment and the amendments are
sight hearir
particularly offensive because they are new
executive
material. The Government Operations
toward the goal of increased public in-
Committee, after hearing objections to
volvement in the governmental process.
examples of the FED's consistent attempts to
created by
arrogantly transcend accountability.
Act amend
this from the Federal Reserve Board and
I urge that the Government in the
Finally, we would like to emphasize our
amendment
others, approved a compromise which
sunshine bill be approved.
active support of an amendment which we
We know.
merely required a statement of the rea-
CONSUMER FEDERATION OF AMERICA,
understand will be introduced by you, Rep.
Preedom of
son and statutory basis. Unfortunately,
Washington, D.C., July 28, 1976.
Fascell. That amendment would require that
Hon. BELLA S. ABZUG,
and the pri
the Judiciary Committee amendments
at anytime there is a "deletion" from the
credible ne:
would strike even this requirement, SO
Hon. DANTE B. FASCELL,
transcript, there must be submitted & written
that only a blank space would be left
U.S. House of Representatives,
statutory citation to that section of the law
complexity
Washington, D.C.
which would allow such a deletion. This
have a Pape
in a transcript without even a hint of
what had been removed, or by what au-
DEAR REPRESENTATIVES ABZUG AND FASCELL:
amendment will ensure an additional meas-
this Congre
Consumer Federation of America, the na-
are of accountability into the bill.
try to cut 1
thority. hope that this proposed change
tion's largest consumer organization repre-
Sincerely,
the complex
is rejected by the House.
senting more than 30 million consumers,
CAROL TUCKER FOREMAN,
ment to wh
One of the reasons for requiring some
enthusiastically supports the Government in
Executive Director.
stantially W
reference to deleted material is to en-
the Sunshine Act (HR 11656).
KATHLEEN F. O'REILLY,
Linn Act an
able citizens to have some indication of
It is no secret that public confidence in
Legislative Director.
the subject matter. This would enable
government is at an all time low. A major
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, 1
Madam C
them to exercise their rights to judicial
source of citizen cynicism is the growing con-
yield 10 minutes to the gentleman from
0011 13 found
review. Under the bill, a judge may ex-
viction that government decisions are often
California (Mr. McCLOSKEY).
made behind closed doors with access and
the Governn
amine a transcript in camera to de-
input being too frequently the exclusive
(Mr. McCLOSKEY asked and was given
tent
possible
termine whether deletions fit within the
privilege of well-financed special interest
permission to revise and extend his re-
new
in
publ
stated exemptions. Unless a person
groups. The public recognizes the transpar-
marks.)
all
I
knows in general the type of subject
ence of the standard government position
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Madam Chairman,
than
affected, however, he would be unable to
that it can only conduct business effectively
I do not want to belabor the time of the
in
challenge a deletion.
if its proceedings are closed to the public.
Committee in general debate on this
to
I know that many Members have been
The legislation which will be considered
matter on the specific amendments which
28,
1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
7875
1976
more thoroughly later,
in my opinion, certain of the bill's pro-
are the legitimate subject of this legis-
ded step
would like to call the attention of
visions will, if enacted, needlessly, and
lation. Rather, the bill broadly extends
ns with
to the fact that when we enact
even foolishly, interfere with the proper
its coverage to any "assembly or simul-
the vast
as we will today, there is
and effective functioning with the Fed-
taneous communication concerning the
ally as
duty on the House of Rep-
eral agencies. I believe that the enact-
joint conduct or disposition of agency
coguizes
to be careful in our crafts-
ment of these provisions will end up
business by two or more" members of
because this is another one of
hurting the people this bill is designed to
the agency.
where the Senate passed
benefit, by imposing on the Government
This language, together with the ver-
eries of
ir Burna
the bill unanimously by a vote of 94 to
costly redtape requirements which lower
batim transcript provision, would mean
be Rep
0 substantial debate on the floor.
productivity while providing no benefits
that any assembly or simulfaneous com-
When the bill was sent to us, however.
for anyone.
munication concerning agency matters,
pruiseworthy and laudable its purposes,
My differences with this bill are few
whether or not its purpose is to conduct
ructure
there were problems of craftsmanship
but important. This bill can be signifi-
business, would be subject to prior public
ray that
can plague our Government dearly
cantly improved in the following ways.
notice, the open meeting requirement,
agency
in the years ahead if they are not recog-
and the requirement that a recording of
ess" the
VERBATIM TRANSCRIPTS
the meeting or conversation be made.
n "open
Consequently, unless several of these
The bill in its present form requires
In other words, all telephone conver-
tomati-
amendments are adopted, in my judg-
a verbatim recording or transcript to be
sations and meetings of agency members
it could
ment, the bill may provide more problems
made of every meeting which is legally
S intent
at barbecues, on the golf course, or any-
than it seeks to solve. Let me try to set
closed under the narrow exemptions con-
islation
where would be covered by the act if the
tained in the bill. This is simultaneously
business
this in a historical context.
conversation included the mere mention
ounding
the bill's most onerous and its most use-
It was only 2 years ago that we en-
of any matter pending before the agency.
tandard
acted the freedom of information amend-
less provision. It is onerous because of
A more important objection to this
conduct
the tremendous expense involved in
ments, because of what we felt were
provision than the fact that it may Inter-
view of
the excesses in several administrations,
meeting this requirement-not only the
fere with some agency members' social
king, be
culminating in the Nixon administration
costs of the recording equipment or
lives, however, is the fact that this pro-
ts
where the Attorney General at the time
stenographer, but the costs of transcrib-
vision vitiates one of the most important
stated that if Congress wanted any in-
ing the verbatim record, reviewing it to
:mit the
exemptive provisions of the Freedom of
formation from the executive branch,
see if any portions of it can be made pub-
require-
Information Act, the exemption for
"closed"
lic, and, if so, making the necessary dele-
they had an absolute right tc withhold
intragency discussions. Congress and the
compe-
tions in the transcript. It is uesless be-
It and our sole remedy was impeachment,
courts have long recognized the need for
he com-
cause, under the act, these transcripts,
which we ultimately undertook. With
agency personnel to discuss, in private,
example,
made at considerable expenses, will never
regard to those excesses and abuses of
regulatory matters and to freely explore
phrase-
be made publicly available if the meeting
meeting
secrecy by the executive branch, in the
all options that may be open-without
was legally closed. Their only function is
equently
heat of anger and passion we passed
the fear that those discussions will one
to serve as a policing aid to enable the
or para-
amendments to the Freedom of Informa-
day be publicly revealed. The heads of
may be
courts to determine if the closing was
tion Act in 1974, and then in 1975 we
multimember agencies have this need as
ons. The
proper. I think there must be a simpler,
enacted the Privacy Act to try to protect
well as the members of their staffs.
Id never
more efficient way to accomplish this
individuals against excessive intrusion by
I believe that the bill should apply
:eedings.
goal.
whenever agency members convene in a
warrant
the executive branch.
seussion
In both of those acts, we imposed civil
This provision will undermine the goals
formal meeting for the purpose of pass-
ibed. In
or criminal penalties, or both, against
of the two principal planks of Federal in-
ing upon matters before the agency. It
in meet-
Government employees who might vio-
formation policy, the Freedom of Infor-
should not apply if the agency members
Inaccu-
mation Act and the Privacy Act. If these
late either the privacy of the individuals
meet informally, not for the purpose of
transcripts are in existence, their dis-
or who might excessively claim secrecy
voting or deciding matters, but only for a
closure will undoubtedly be the object of
for Government documents. We have
preliminary discussion among themselves
npt SEC
a significant amount of Federal court
not held oversight hearings by the sub-
of the important issues they will ulti-
the tran-
litigation. One way or another, some of
committee which presents this bill on the
mately Lave to make an informed judg-
the information in those transcripts will
m
actual operations of either the Privacy
ment upon.
generic
Act or the Freedom of Information Act.
become public-and the protections pro-
ENCOURAGEMENT OF UNDUE LITIGATION
it of ex-
vided for individuals contained in the
I think, frankly, I would feel better
about this legislation had we held over-
Privacy Act, and for various types of ex-
As I noted, the "sunshine" bill has a
cles.
cason for
sight hearings on the problems for the
empt matters in the Freedom of Infor-
laudable purpose. But I think we all also
ents are
mation Act, will be eroded. Thus, sensi-
perceive a need to try to cut the cost of
executive branch which have been
are new
tive agency discussions-which the bill
Government and, in particular, to cut the
empts to
created by the Freedom of Information
Act amendments and the Privacy Act
recognizes should not be held in public-
need for mountains of paperwork. In
would be subject to being recorded in
addition, we are beginning to perceive a
size our
amendments.
full, and to the publication of an edited
need to discourage undue litigation in the
which we
We know, for example, that both the
Freedom of Information Act amendments
transcript. Those who will benefit most
Federal court system. The benefits of
ou, Rep.
uire that
and the privacy bill have imposed in-
from this, I am afraid, are the special
open Government which the bill achieves
are sharply offset by the costly, and un-
'rom the
interests who can well afford to pay
credible new burdens of paperwork and
their agents or lobbyists to attend every
necessary, burdens it places on the Gov-
& written
the law
complexity and additional personnel. We
have a Paperwork Committee created by
open meeting and pore over every tran-
ernment and on the Federal court sys-
on. This
script of closed discussions made avail-
tem.
al meas-
this Congress which is studying how to
able.
This act provides that any person-
try to cut back on the paperwork and
not merely one interested in the matter
the complexity and the cost to Govern-
I believe that the unnecessary tran-
before the agency-can bring an action
.N,
ment to which we have added so sub-
script requirement should be deleted. In-
to challenge the closing of a meeting.
rector
stantially with the Freedom of Informa-
stead, agencies should be required to
That suit can be brought in the plain-
tion Act amendments and the privacy
maintain minutes of closed meetings.
irector.
tiff's home district, regardless of the
bill.
These meetings will set forth the matters
rman, I
discussed at a closed meeting. and will
place the agency is located or the meet-
Madam Chairman, briefly stated, this
ing was held. Obviously, one closed meet-
an from
bill is founded on the proposition that
enable a court to determine if a meeting
ing could be the subject of challenge in
the Government should, to the fullest ex-
was improperly closed. If it was, the
any number of districts, necessitating ex-
as given
tent possible, conduct the public's busi-
court will have every power in equity at
tensive travel by Government lawyers to
his re-
ness in public. To that end, the bill re-
its command to remedy the situation in
litigate these challenges. The burden of
quires all Federal agencies headed by
the manner it believes is required.
proof is always on the agency, and as
airman,
more than one person to conduct their
DEFINITION OF MEETINGS
agencies have discovered in Freedom of
e of the
business in meetings that are open to all.
This bill is directed not only at formal
Information Act litigation, that burden is
on this
I want to make it clear that I have no
meetings of agencies convened to con-
a difficult one to meet. Finally, if in the
ts which
disagreement with these principles. But,
duct agency business-which I believe
opinion of the court the plaintiff merely
H 7876
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
July 28, 1976
July
"substantially prevails," he is entitled to
the workings of the Privacy Act and the
on, say, committee business, if we were
ernmer
an award of attorney's fees and costs.
Freedom of Information Act?
to meet in the well of the House, if we
cades
This act will be a drain on the man-
Ms. ABZUG. If the gentleman will
were to meet at the lunch counter or if
We our
power and monetary resources of the De-
yield, I think there is no question about
we were to meet in our offices and discuss
the fut
partment of Justice and the legal staffs
it.
the subject of a pending bill, we would
not be
of the agencies that will have to resist
While I have the opportunity to answer
have to have a transcript of that meet-
bers
these suits. These provisions will be a
the gentleman on the Sunshine Act, I
ing and it would have to be promptly
We
bonanza for the legal profession and-
would remind him that most of the hear-
produced for the public unless it came
to hav
more importantly-for the special inter-
ings we have had, or a good number of
within one of the specific exemptions,
the cor
ests who can afford to hire them to delay,
them, have dealt with oversight of the
and we would have to vote on the specific
try abl
impede, and obstruct the processes of the
Freedom of Information Act and the
exemptions. This prevents discussion of
Fran
regulatory agencies.
Privacy Act.
matters in casual contacts amongst each
commi
I am aware that the object of this bill
On the question of information that
other.
ist in 1
is to make Government open to the peo-
is being provided or not being provided
I think this should be amended. If we
twice
ple, and there may well be some action
under the Freedom of Information Act,
look at congressional procedures in the
conduc
taken by public interest groups to force
questions have come up concerning the
same context, we would preclude the exe-
comply
open an improperly closed meeting. But,
application of the Privacy Act and what
cutive branch from doing something we
and fu
by and large, the ones who will be taking
was required of the Members of Congress
would never consider precluding for our-
still do
advantage of this bill's provisions will be
in order to get information for their con-
selves.
Mad
corporate and other special interests at-
stituents.
Ms. ABZUG.- If the gentleman will
balanc
tempting to stave off what they deem to
We held significant meetings with rele-
yield, I want to point out that the gent-
argum
be unfavorable Government action. We
vant agencies concerning some of the
leman's fear in this connection is not
Mr.
have seen too many cases where agency
paper work and the bureaucratic in-
completely carried out. Unless there is
have 10
action was unnecessarily protracted due
terpretations of this act, and we con-
a quroum of this agency, there would
I reser
to long, drawn-out court battles. This
tinued to hold hearings regularly to
be no requirement such as the gentleman
Mr. I
bill gives the special interests just one
deal with the implementation and inter-
describes. It would not constitute a meet-
Chairn
more forum in which to fight the agency.
pretation of the act.
ing under the statute or under the legis-
consun
The right to file suit under this bill
The gentleman can be assured that
lation as we now propose it.
(Mr. K
should be limited to actions brought by
this committee and its successor, because
Mr. LONG of Maryland. Madam Chair-
(Mr.
a person aggrieved by agency action
it is charged with the responsibility, will
man, will the gentleman yield?
permis
taken at a closed meeting-the standard
have oversight, and I know it will con-
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I yield to the gen-
remarl
which has governed access to the courts
duct oversight hearings on sunshine.
tleman from Maryland.
Mr.
for review of agency action since the en-
Mr. McCLOSKEY. If I may respond to
Mr. LONG of Maryland. Madam
like m
actment of the Administrative Procedure
the gentlewoman, I do not want to be
Chairman, I might point out that under
I find
Act in 1946. It is unwise to throw the
the practices of the Committee on Ap-
lous si
misinterpreted. I have commended the
courts open to anyone, anywhere, who is
propriations, ordinarily two members
Here
gentlewoman on the vigor with which she
of a mind to throw a wrench into the
has approached the Freedom of Infor-
constitute a quorum.
knit g1
workings of the Government.
mation Act amendments and the abuses
Mr. McCLOSKEY. This is my problem,
manne
CONCLUSION
of it, the oversight of the Privacy Act and
Madam Chairman. Let us take my own
a rath
We must remember that the Federal
the abuses of it. But my concern is over-
subcommittee. which has seven members.
us are
Assuming that four members constitute
all of 1
agencies have been created by the Con-
sight on the complexity and the cost to
gress, and given the job of promoting
Government. It was not appropriate until
a quorum and that four of us should
How
meet in the well of the House to discuss
fore us
goals deemed by the Congress to be of
now that we do this on the Privacy Act
because the Privacy Act would have been
problems we have on a bill, that might
agree
utmost importance. Thus, when we im-
in effect only a year in September. But
well constitute a meeting which would
toward
pede the agencies, we only harm our own
then require recorded transcript.
duct of
legislative objectives.
we hear rumblings from many agencies.
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, if the
some
I am aware that criticism may on OC-
They have all indicated that the cost
casion be justifiably leveled at some
to the Government has become extreme-
gentleman will yield further, I would
aspects
agency action. But the answer to that
ly burdensome, and that the complexity
rather not interrupt the gentleman's
pointed
I woul
of government operations has increased
presentation, except that I do want to
problem is for Congress to address and
the COL
tremendously.
clarify this point. The quorum that the
correct the agencies when they go astray,
How
not to obstruct, indiscriminately, all
Ms. ABZUG. If the gentleman will
gentleman referred to is for the purpose
bill is 1
yield further, I think the gentleman
of conducting a hearing and not for the
agency action of every kind.
ing the
makes a valid point. I think an act such
purpose of doing business. I think there is
I think we make a mistake when we
functic
try to saddle the agencies with onerous
as this, which involves privacy, the Free-
a distinction there, and I do not agree
to be
with the gentleman.
and unnecessary burdens such as the
dom of Information Act, and now this
In fac
Sunshine Act. which involves agencies
I do not want to interrupt the gentle-
verbatim transcript provision of this leg-
by cer
of Government and the operation of very
man on this point any further except
islation, when we erode the protections
Federa
important functions, should at a cer-
to make the record clear from a legis-
previously afforded for closed discussions
prime
tain point, when we have collected the
lative point of view. I think we ought to
of important policy matters by agency
or rest
be clear as to what that means.
heads and staff, and when we subject
information, be the subject of intensive
their 0
Mr. McCLOSKEY, Madam Chairman,
oversight. I would certainly recommend
Follo
them to harassment by burdensome liti-
we have a disagreement, and it is worth
gation. Who will benefit? Will we protect
that and see that it takes place.
debate
stating and worth debating and worth
the man for whose benefit an agency is
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I thank the gen-
resolving today. I would point out that
have
attempting to devise a protective rule in
tlewoman.
much of the argument for this sunshine
accord with congressional direction, or
Madam Chairman, I would like to
bill has been on the basis that in many
ment
will we merely provide a means for the
speak briefly on the amendments which
cases enlightened States have adopted
change
interests that would be affected by that
will be offered, because I think these
sunshine bills.
Most
rule to impede the effectuation of the
amendments are crucial to producing
However, as to this meeting require-
might
will of Congress?
a craftsmanlike bill.
ment, in my State of California there is
this bi
I would like at this time to ask a
On the first amendment, on the ques-
no requirement for a casual meeting be-
question of the gentlewoman from New
tion of meetings, I would my col-
tween a number of people who ultimately
Board
York. If we pass the sunshine bill today,
leagues to consider whether we in the
can conduct business for a city council
Ex
which in effect adds section 552(b) to the
Congress could operate with the defini-
or board of supervisors that they have
code, the Freedom of Information Act
tion of "meetings," as it presently exists
to supply a recorded transcript or have
to look
being 552 and the Privacy Act being
in this bill. The definition of "meetings"
a vote, and there is no requirement. I
The
552(a), may we not soon have an over-
in the bill, as it exists now, means if an-
think we are searching here for balances
sight hearing, within the next year, on
other Member and were to meet
SO we can assure good operations in Gov-
GERALD
76
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD
H 7877
ernment after we have had several de-
erations become totally open to the pub-
The Federal Reserve Board further-
ere
cades of abuse of power by Government.
lic, financial markets may react in some
more, in addition to what has already
we
We ought to recognize, however, that in
cases dramatically; and the stability of
been read, often has before it detailed
the future members of a commission will
our economy is likely to be affected in
financial and managerial information.
not be of the same attitude of past mem-
some degree.
The Securities and Exchange Com-
bers whose abuses we cure here.
Madam Chairman, I would just like to
mission often has similar information be-
We seek for a balance. We are going
point out something by way of quoting
fore it; and those two comprise, I think,
to have to get good people to serve on
from a May 6 letter from Arthur Burns,
probably the most serious questions be-
me
the commissions and to govern this coun-
the Chairman of the Board of Governors
fore us, as to what should be the cover-
try ably.
of the Federal Reserve System. He
age of this bill.
lific
Frankly, if I were asked to serve as a
states:
Mainly, Madam Chairman, I think our
commissioner under these rules that ex-
It is our belief that the Federal Reserve
concern should be: Just what is it that
ist in the bill today, I would ask myself
Board is unique among Government agen-
we are doing?
twice whether in the ordinary course of
cies insofar as the subject matter of its de-
I think oftentimes we have measures
we
conducting Government business I could
cisional process is concerned. With few ex-
before us that have wonderful titles, that
the
comply with these provisions of meetings
ceptions, each of the Board's regularly sched-
xe-
uled meetings is involved with matters the
sound good, and gain all kinds of sup-
and furnishing verbatim transcripts and
sensitivity and intricacy of which, if ex-
port; but contained within those bills are
we
still do my job honestly.
posed to public discussion, could lead to
provisions that make it very difficult to
nur-
Madam Chairman, I will reserve the
misunderstanding, misinterpretation, and
support the entire content of the bill.
balance of my time now and save it for
disruptive and harmful speculations. Ex-
Madam Chairman, when we go about
will
argument on the specific amendments.
amples include deliberative processes in
providing for Government in sunshine, I
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman, I
monetary policy formulation: receipt, trans-
might state that there was no answer
have no further requests for time, and
mission and evaluation of national and inter-
given in the subcommittee on in the
is
national market information; and, incident
I reserve the balance of my time.
buld
to the formulation of bank regulatory policy,
Committee on the Judiciary itself, in
Mr. MOORHEAD of California. Madam
can
discussion of confidential appraisals, and sen-
considering this matter, to the question:
Chairman, I yield such time as he may
sitive judgments relating to member bank
Why not include all of the executive
consume to the gentleman from Ohio
and/or bank holding company operations, in-
branch, the departments of the executive
gis-
(Mr. KINDNESS).
dividuals, etc.
branch of the Government, in this Gov-
(Mr. KINDNESS asked and was given
air-
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, will
ernment in the sunshine bill instead of
permission to revise and extend his
the gentleman yield?
the collegial-headed agencies?
remarks.)
gen-
Mr. KINDNESS. I yield to the gentle-
Obviously, the answer has to be that
Mr. KINDNESS. Madam Chairman,
woman from New York.
this was a simple formula approach. Col-
like many other Members of the House,
dam
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I
legial agencies only being included, gives
I find that I am in a somewhat anoma-
wonder whether the gentleman from
us a starting point, but we do not really
ider
lous situation with respect to this bill.
Ap-
Ohio (Mr. KINDNESS) is aware of the fact
know how many are really included with-
Here we are again, a small, closely
bers
that all of the subjects that he has men-
in the scope of this bill and thus list-ex-
knit group, sitting here in an interested
tioned come within the exemptions in
actly the agencies we want to cover. As
manner debating in a stimulated way
the bill. We had in the Government Op-
a starting point I think that this is far
lem,
a rather important bill. Only a few of
own
erations Committee and in the Judiciary
better than the broad approach that can
us are here, and this is going to affect
Committee extended discussion on this
give us so much trouble as to the ques-
pers.
all of us in some degree.
tute
issue, and what we did in the way of
tion of which agencies and commissions
However, we have here a proposal be-
ould
exemptions more than covers the gen-
are actually covered.
fore us that all of us, I think, can readily
tleman's concerns.
A further example, which will be
cuss
agree will aim in the right direction,
ight
Mr. KINDNESS. I do not choose to
brought out during the debate on the
toward providing openness in the con-
ould
yield further on the point because I have
amendment is the Commodity Credit
duct of public affairs. Naturally, we have
the bill, I have read the bill, and I under-
Corporation in the Department of Agri-
some disagreements concerning some
stand what is contained in the bill. I
culture. Anyone who was to think about
the
aspects of the bill. They have all been
ould
think we could carry this dialog on into
it and looks up the law and statutory
pointed out at this time, I believe, and
an's
several other sections of the bill so as to
provisions concerning the Commodity
I would like to express my support for
t to
modify the effect of what the gentlewo-
Credit Corporation, will soon discover
the concept of this bill.
man from New York points out.
that the Secretary of Agriculture actual-
the
However, there is a problem, as the
pose
Ms. ABZUG. If the gentleman will yield
ly directs the operations of that board. So
bill is now written, because it is my feel-
further, I just wish to point out that we
it is an open question right off the bat as
the
ing that there are certain governmental
share his concern and the concern of
to whether the Commodity Credit Cor-
functions that by their very nature have
Chairman Burns on this issue.
poration is covered by this bill. Yet it is
gree
to be kept privileged or not published.
This legislation provides adequate pro-
listed in the Senate report as typical of
In fact, the very functions carried out
by certain Government agencies, the
tection for those concerns, particularly
those agencies that would be covered by
itle-
cept
in exemptions 8 and 9 of the bill.
the bill.
Federal Reserve Board being one of the
gis-
I might also point out that when we
I assure the Members that the interests
prime examples, require a sequestered
it to
passed the Freedom of Information Act
of the American people are not best
or restrictive setting for the conduct of
their deliberations.
back in 1966, the Federal Reserve ex-
served by having Government in the sun-
nan
Following the conclusion of general
pressed similar concerns:
shine litigated but rather by having Gov-
ernment in the sunshine.
orth
debate. this House will have an oppor-
Could leave exposed to indiscriminate pub-
orth
tunity to vote on the amendments that
lic demand certain critical records and ma-
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I yield
that
terials related to the Board's credit and mon-
such time as he may consume to the
have already been discussed, and yet I
etary policy functions ars well as other statu-
chairman of the Committee on Govern-
hine
would like to emphasize one amend-
tory directed functions. Such a result could
ment Operations, the gentleman from
any
ment and that is the one which would
impair the Board's effectiveness both as an
Texas (Mr. BROOKS).
ptec
change the definition of "agency."
instrument of national economic policy and
Mr. BROOKS. Madam Chairman, I
Most notable among the agencies that
as a regulatory body.
want to thank the gentlewoman from
tire-
might be covered and will be covered by
This was said by the Chairman of the
New York' for yielding me this time.
re
the bill for the Members' special con-
be
Board in 1966. This has never happened,
(Mr. BROOKS asked and was given
I think, is the Federal Reserve
and Mr. Burns admitted that when he
permission to revise and extend his re-
Similarly, however, the Securities
Exchange Commission has some pe-
testified before my subcommittee.
marks.)
I merely quote it to the gentleman to
considerations for the Members
Mr. BROOKS. Madam Chairman, this
allay his fears.
at
bill is hardly new or surprising. Here in
The Federal Reserve Board's delibera-
Mr. KINDNESS. Madam Chairman, I
Congress we have become used to operat-
thank the gentlewoman from New York
monetary policies often involve
ing in the sunshine. Nearly every State
for seeking to allay my fears, but the at-
has opened its governmental processes to
matter. If such delib-
tempt fails.
some degree. What is surprising is that
H 7878
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
July 28, 1976
we have taken so long to extend this
who have the courage to say things in
ask questions for information to broaden
worthwhile practice to the executive
open meetings that they would say be-
their viewpoints, but even a question
branch, and that some of the people
hind closed doors. This applies especially
can be misinterpreted on a public print
there still resist it.
to funding. The pressure group with its
basis.
I would like to commend the chair-
key members sitting in the front row
I am always amazed at how we in
woman and members of the Subcommit-
will always get more money than will an
Congress establish one set of rules for
tee on Government Information and In-
unrepresented group who might have a
everyone else, and yet think we should
dividual Rights for the excellent job they
more worthy cause.
live according to a different set of rules
did on this bill. It has been carefully
Last October a bill was passed here in
ourselves. I serve on the Commerce
considered by two subcommittees and
Congress which is hard to understand.
Oversight and Investigations Commit-
two full committees. All interested par-
It provided for double pensions for a
tee where I am the ranking Republican.
ties have had a chance to express their
group of 40,000 National Guard tech-
Recently, the chairman and the major-
views. As a result, the bill strikes a care-
nicians. They will get both military and
ity insisted that confidential records
ful balance between the right of the
civil service pensions. This bill was op-
taken from the Securities and Exchange
public to know what its Government is
posed by the Defense Department, the
Commission files be made public. These
doing, and the need to protect the rights
Civil Service Commission, the National
records consisted of investigations
of individual citizens and to assure that
Taxpayers Union, and the administra-
which were being reviewed and were
the Government's ability to function is
tion. Yet, in spite of a strong fight, the
pending a decision. This information had
not impaired.
bill passed Congress by 261 to 117.
been brought to the SEC on a voluntary
When Government actions are taken
This bill should have been killed in
basis and my own personal opinion is
in secret behind closed door, we not only
committee. We created a $1 billion de-
that the matter did not warrant any
undermine public confidence in Govern-
ficiency against an already deficient civil
public statement from the SEC. While
ment, but we can wind up pretty far off
service pension plan. National Guard
the SEC was keeping the matter under
target and without the public support
technicians will now be getting a double
advisement and reviewing all of the
our Government needs if it is going to
pension check whereas a four star gen-
facts, we subpenaed the information
stay in business.
eral is only entitled to enter one pension
and our chairman released it to the press.
H.R. 11656 should help avoid those
plan.
One immediate effect of this is going to
possibilities. By opening up the meetings
Just as in Congress, where much of
be that it will be very difficult in the fu-
of some 50 Federal agencies, it will assure
this wasteful spending should be elim-
ture to obtain voluntary disclosures.
there is public understanding of the ac-
inated at the committee level behind
These companies came forward asking
tions of those agencies.
closed doors, we find the same thing in
whether they had done anything wrong,
If the public understands and sees
these agencies. When they talk frankly
and brought in all of the facts and in-
what goes on, it is more likely to accept
among themselves, they use more com-
formation for an opinion and judgment.
and have confidence in our actions.
mon sense. When they talk in front of
But public disclosure is often inter-
Opening up those meetings will also as-
the press, the television, and the pressure
preted by the public in the same manner
sure that the officials of those agencies
lobby groups the administrators have ears
as an indictment might be interpreted.
are accountable for their actions. That is
sticking out in both directions, and hu-
Let us look at our own Oversight Com-
what government of the people, by the
man nature will have them reacting to
mittee in Commerce, to which I referred.
people, and for the people is all about.
the pressures of whatever outsiders are
This committee has 35 members on its
Certainly there are occasions when
present. From the days of Rome, history
staff. They are not appointed by Civil
meetings should not be open. H.R. 11656
has shown that a republic which becomes
Service, but are appointed entirely and
recognizes this and provides for closing
overresponsive to every voter handout re-
exclusively, subject to hiring and firing.
them in those situations. It affords pro-
quest is a republic that is sure to fall.
by the chairman of our committee. They
tection for trade secrets and information
This bill invites aggressive lawsuits
are his private staff. We have a rule
that could be damaging to financial in-
from every lawyer who has time on his
written by the committee majority that
stitutions or to stock exchanges. It pre-
hands. I recall a case here in the District
limits any staff member representing
vents invasions of personal privacy and
of Columbia 2 months ago in which Judge
the minority from ever seeing the raw
guards against disclosure of crime in-
Joyce Green ordered the District of Co-
material in investigation files. The attor-
vestigation records. National security is
lumbia government to pay an attorney,
ney that represents the Republican side
also protected. Those safeguards that are
Gilbert Hawn, Jr., the amount of $168,487
in this committee is not entitled to see
needed are provided.
for his work in suing the city to overturn
any of the raw material as it is being
But what H.R. 11656 really safeguards
its system or real estate tax assessments.
developed and studied by the staff. Fur-
is the public interest. It reinforces the
This good attorney managed to find yet
thermore, a Congressman who himself
basic constitutional premise that this is
another way to confuse an already bank-
might go in to review the records is not
a government of the people, and that
rupt city, and for this service he was paid
allowed to photostat any of this material
those who serve should be fully ac-
this exorbitant fee.
to take back for our staff to analyze and
countable to the people for their actions.
I can well understand the enthusiasm
study further.
Former President Harry Truman is
of the gentlewoman from New York (Ms.
Here is an Oversight and Review Com-
justly noted for saying, "If you can't
ABZUG), in leading the fight for this "sun-
mittee that is responsible only to the
stand the heat, get out of the kitchen."
shine" bill. However, I would compare
Majority, and will provide no informa-
I would add that if you cannot stand the
the problems developed here with her
tion to the minority staff. Here is a com-
light, get out of the Government.
own New York City which has too much
mittee of Congress which is assigned the
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
sunshine in its legislation and not enough
responsibility of oversight and investi-
yield such time as he may consume
closed door sessions to work out the fiscal
gation which works behind closed doors
to the gentleman from Texas (Mr.
restraints needed in the governmental
The chairman of our committee is the
COLLINS)
functions.
author of the Freedom of Information
(Mr. COLLINS of Texas asked and was
We are already too overcommitted
Act.
given permission to revise and extend his
with overspending in this country. When
remarks.)
President Kennedy came into office, the
I feel this way about all of this "sun-
Mr. COLLINS of Texas. Madam Chair-
budget was $97.7 billion. We are now
shine in the Government." There are
man, the most capable individual in
talking about $415 billion. But even more
many in Congress who believe that all
Washington is the person who gives the
than the fact that we are spending four
the facts should be made public except
names to our congressional bills. There
times as much, we are running a $100
those that they are personally handling
is a warm and friendly spirit in the name
billion deficit.
in their own committee. This sunshine
"Government in the sunshine." But be-
I do not see how these agency officials
bill is one of the most unnecesssary bills
fore we rush into this legislation, we
of our Federal Government could effec-
to come before Congress this session.
should carefully evaluate all that it
tively and conscientiously administer the
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
entails.
executive decisions with the hubbub and
yield such time as he may consume to
There are very few individuals in the
hassle of press and pressure groups on
the gentleman from Connecticut (Mr.
administrative groups of Government
hand. Sometimes administrators like to
SARASIN).
1976
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
H 7879
roaden
(Mr. SARASIN asked and was given
go far in increasing an intelligent under-
deliberate informally regarding the con-
estion
permission to revise and extend his
standing of American institutions and
duct or disposition of agency business.
print
remarks.)
how they operate. Although I have diffi-
It is significant that there is a pre-
Mr. SARASIN. Madam Chairman, to
culty with some portions of the bill, I
sumption of openness and that a ma-
we in
enumerate the myriad problems con-
believe that one of the essential prin-
jority vote by the entire membership is
les for
fronting us as a nation today would
ciples of a free government is the right
needed to close a meeting or any portion
should
merely be repetitive of everything we are
of the people to know how their Govern-
of it.
if rules
seeing and hearing from our constituents
ment makes decisions.
It is significant that any citizen can
imerce
and from the newspapers and television.
Although Congress has a reputation
challenge in court the closing of a meet-
mmit-
We have gone from an agrarian, family
for excluding itself from the require-
ing or any violation of the openness re-
(blican.
based society to one that has become
ments which it imposes on other govern-
quirements of the bill, and that the bur-
major-
highly urbanized and mechanized, with
ment agencies, especially those of the
den of proof of the propriety in closing
records
different sectors of the society depend-
executive branch, we, too, have acted to
a meeting rests with the agency in
change
ent on the other to meet their various
open our meetings and hearings to public
question.
These
needs. We realize that none of us can any
oversight. It is just this sort of public
Another important provision of this
longer operate independently. Problems
scrutiny which makes Federal Adminis-
bill establishes for the first time statu-
1 were
have become too large to be solved on the
trators more responsive to the demands
tory prohibitions on ex parte communi-
ion had
individual, local, or State level and the
of the American public.
cations with agency members.
funtary
Federal Government has become the in-
In addition, I favor the safeguards
In considering "sunshine" legislation,
nion is
tercessor to provide needed assistance to
written into the bill, providing protection
we must remember that public aware-
nt any
resolve these problems.
relating to matters of individual privacy,
ness of the processes of its government is
While
Government, in large part, has grown
national security, and financial disclo-
essential to maintain an effective demo-
under
as a response to these problems and to
sure. The bill would protect the rights of
cratic form of Government. James Mad-
act as an arbiter, regulator, and adminis-
individuals and the ability of the Gov-
of the
ison wrote:
trator of the problems which people face
ernment to carry out its responsibilities.
mation
A popular government without popular in-
e press.
but cannot solve on their own. Govern-
I agree with Thomas Jefferson that ef-
formation or the means of acquiring it is
oing to
mental resources are vast, just as the
fective self-government requires that the
but a prologue to a farce or both. Knowledge
manpower involved in allocating and
people participate in every feature of the
will forever govern ignorance. And a people
the fu-
using these resources has created a large
political process. The American public
who mean to be their own governors must
losures.
has a right to participate in the execution
arm themselves with the power knowledge
asking
Federal bureaucracy. The problems we
wrong,
face today are inherently more complex
of the laws passed by Congress. Govern-
gives.
than those faced by our ancestors 200
ment in the sunshine is a further step in
It is a contradiction in terms to think
and in-
the direction of opening our political
years ago.
we can have a democratic Government
igment.
Our problems have evolved from the
processes to public participation.
without an informed public. Particularly
inter-
technology and innovation which we
Mr. STEELMAN. Madam Chairman,
with the increasing size of government,
manner
rpreted.
have created to make our lives more com-
it is a pleasure for me to speak today in
we must allow the people to review not
it Com-
fortable. Therefore, we have entrusted to
support of H.R. 11656, the Government
only the decision, but the decisionmaking
Government agencies the decisionmaking
in the Sunshine Act. This legislation is
eferred.
process.
authority to identify and approach these
the logical result of our realization that
H.R. 11656 is one way to handle the
on its
we must open up the doors of our Gov-
crisis of distrust of government that is
by Civil
problems-be they environmental, en-
ely and
ergy. social, or economic. Yet most of
ernment to public scrutiny. We must al-
rampant in our country today. It may
these day-to-day agency activities and
low the people to view the process of de-
not be a panacea for the problem, but
1 firing,
decisions are removed from public view.
cisionmaking to increase understanding,
it can aid the restoration of confidence
e. They
Just ns our problems have a continually
dispel cynicism, and provide access to
so vital to our Nation's health. The time
a rule
changing face, so must our approaches
information vital for an informed citi-
for "sunshine" is here, and I urge all my
ity that
to finding solutions. Our national goals,
zenry. To deny the public the right to
colleagues to join me in supporting H.R.
senting
our programs and governmental policies
know not only breeds distrust, but, in
11656.
the raw
must be reshaped and made responsive to
fact, threatens the basic ideas inherent
Mr. ASHLEY. Madam Chairman, I am
attor-
these variable conditions.
in and crucial to our democratic form of
thoroughly in accord with the principles
an side
The Federal Government continues to
government.
embodied in the legislation before us to-
1 to see
control many aspects of our daily lives.
The "sunshine" bill represents a logi-
day, H.R. 11656, the Government in the
is being
We are never totally free from the pur-
cal extension of legislation passed by
Sunshine Act. Passage of this measure
ff. Fur-
view of Government. But just as our
Congress over the last decade designed to
will go a long way toward assuring ac-
himself
American Government was created as a
give the people the right to know.
countability on the part of Federal
is is not
Government of the people, so must it re-
We first concerned ourselves with the
agencies and increasing public knowledge
material
main. The growth of the bureaucracy has
problem of secrecy in government in 1955
of and participation in the official pro-
(yze and
led to a protectiveness and secrecy about
by creating a special Subcommittee on
ceedings of their Government.
certain governmental actions. Those in
Government Information. The investi-
In brief, the bill requires all meetings
Com-
control often forget that their mandates
gative and legislative hearings of this
of Government bodies headed by more
to the
come from the people and it is to the peo-
subcommittee contributed significantly
than one person to be open to the public,
forma-
pie that they must remain responsive.
to the enactment of the Freedom of In-
with certain exemptions where such
a com-
The need for open Government has be-
formation Act. In March 1973, we adopt-
matters as national security and inform-
med the
come increasingly apparent through rev-
ed House Resolution 259 which required
ative trade secrets are involved. The
investi-
clations of misuse of Government
us to open up House committee delibera-
measure thus closely parallels and sup-
d doors
power. abuse of authority, and infringe-
tions to the public. Furthermore, on No-
plements the Freedom of Information
e
is
the
ment of individual rights. This bill would
vember 5, 1975, the Senate adopted a
Act in giving the people of this country
be 11 major step toward avoiding these
resolution which allows public observa-
greater access to the records of official
kinds of improper activity in the future
tion of the markup sessions of Senate
Federal proceedings than has ever been
is "sun-
opening up these activities to the
committees. Despite these efforts,
deansing light of public visibility.
allowed by any government in history.
ere are
though, too many doors remain closed.
There are however two provisions in
that
all
Open Government would have multi-
The bill we have before us today will
benefits. Citizens would be edu-
the bill which could prove to be patently
establish a policy of openness for ap-
into how Government operates.
unworkable, possibly even mischievous,
proximately 50 multimember agencies.
importantly. individuals would
and I will support amendments to these
the opportunity to review the gov-
It requires a majority vote in open ses-
sections in the interest of passage of a
ary
sion to close a meeting, and then only if
decisionmaking processes
reasonable and practical piece of legis-
sion.
certain exemptions apply.
related directly to their everyday
lation.
I
Public policy should be open to
It is significant that the definition of a
First, H.R. 11656 requires that not only
sume
to
"meeting" in this bill not only covers ses-
The particular bill which
formal meetings be open to the public,
at
(Mr
sions where formal action is taken, but
today, H.R. 11656, would
but also that any assembly or simultane-
also those at which a quorum of members
ous communication concerning agency
H 7880
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD
July 28, 1976
business by a specified number of agency
regulations dealing with financial in-
not cover "chance encounters" or "social
officials would be subject to prior public
stitutions.
events". This is again a realistic balance
announcement, to the open meeting re-
This legislation has been carefully con-
of the public interest in Government af-
quirement, and to the requirement for a
sidered. It was approved by a vote of 94-
fairs.
formal vote for closing of the meeting.
0 in the Senate. I believe this House
Incidentally, in making notification of
The broad sweep of this language would
should pass this bill and in so doing, take
the time, place and agenda of meetings
make the bill applicable to social gather-
a necessary step in the restoration of a
available to the public, as H.R. 11656
ings, conference telephone calls, and even
responsible and effective government, as
does, the agencies would be complying, to
the most casual conversations of agency
well as the restoration of confidence by
a large extent, with the action the House
officials bearing on their duties regard-
our citizens in our Government.
of Representatives took several years ago
less of whether or not their communica-
Mrs. COLLINS of Illinois. Madam
to open its committee business and mark.
tion was arranged for the specific pur-
Chairman, I rise in support of H.R.
up sessions to the public.
pose of conducting public business. This
11656, the government in the sunshine
Madam Chairman, this bill amply pro-
provision appears to me to go far beyond
bill which is before the House today.
tects the privacy of individuals without
what a desirable and practicable sun-
As my colleagues know this bill, which
being disruptive of the process of Gov.
shine law should include, and I support
is the product of many months of dili-
ernment, and still advances the public's
the proposed amendment to limit the
gent work by members of several com-
interest in knowing what its Government
bill's coverage to only those meetings
mittees of the Congress, simply seeks to
is doing. It has sensible limits and
called for the explicit purpose of dis-
creáte greater public access to business
achieves more openness in our Govern-
cussing agency business.
meetings conducted by the Federal
ment. The cost estimates surrounding the
My second objection is to the require-
agencies.
bill are modest. It is estimated that over
ment that a verbatim record be kept of
It is no secret that Federal agencies
a 5-year period approximately 800,000
every meeting which is legally closed
do much to affect the lives of the citizens
would have to be expended to make this
under the exemptions outlined in the act.
of this land and it is also no secret that
bill operational. There are few in this
The further requirement that these tran-
the citizens have little opportuity to ob-
Chamber that would argue this is too
scripts be made available to the public
serve firsthand the workings of those
high a price to pay for opening the gov-
threatens to open up to public scrutiny
agencies which so often influence their
ernment process to citizens' review and
information relating to trade secrets,
lives. I believe that this bill will provide
observation.
medical and criminal records, national
a very good opportunity to change this
I am urging support of H.R. 11656 as
security, and other topics which the Con-
present circumstance. In my view H.R.
reported by the committee. I wish to re-
gress has already seen fit to exempt from
11656 by providing greater public access,
mind my colleagues of the words of James
the provisions of the Freedom of Infor-
will provide greater government account-
Madison:
mation Act. No State sunshine law con-
ability.
Knowledge will forever govern ignorance,
tains such a requirement, and I believe
However since we sometimes hear of
and a people who mean to be their own gov-
that its retention in the bill will open
instances of a good and simple idea when
ernors must arm themselves with the power
us up to serious charges of invasion of
it is reduced to legislative form turns
knowledge gives. A popular government with-
privacy and failure to protect a wide
into a problematic restriction on govern-
out popular information or the means of
range of privileged information. It ap-
ment and its people, it is wise to point
acquiring it is but a prologue to a farce or a
pears to me that the keeping of minutes
out that the Government in the Sun-
tragedy or perhaps both.
U
of the closed meetings in these areas will
shine bill has been developed with care-
A vote in support of the Government in
be sufficient, in the event that those
ful consideration and, consequently does
the sunshine will, in my opinion, be a
records are ever needed for any court
not fall in that potentially problematic
responsible vote to advance public knowl-
action or congressional oversight. Con-
category. On the contrary, H.R.11656 re-
edge without jeopardizing the govern-
sequently, I support the amendment to
presents a balanced approach to a legis-
ment process.
delete the requirement for verbatim
lative issue that encompasses both the
Mrs. COLLINS of Illinois. Madam
4
transcripts and believe that we will have
public interest and the business bureau-
Chairman, I have read a news report in
a stronger bill thereby.
cratic interest.
the New York Times of July 25, 1976
Mr. LEHMAN. Madam Chairman, re-
Evidence of the balanced approach
which I find very disturbing. I wish to
cent public opinion surveys indicate that
taken by this bill is seen in its provision
share it with my colleagues in the House
the confidence of the American people in
that permits agencies to close their
for I think they also will be alarmed at
our government is at its lowest point in
gatherings to the public if the content of
what is told Mr. George Goodman Jr., a
years.
a meeting would contain information
Times reporter.
Today, the House is considering legis-
that it is not best to widely publicize.
The article indicates quite clearly
lation which if enacted will open up the
Such areas of information are accounted
as a result of an appearance befo
a
operations of government to the public
for in specific "exemptions" contained in
House subcommittee, the Internation
and be of great assistance in restoring
the bill. These exemptions include diverse
Relations Subcommittee on Interna-
the trust of the people in government. I
matters affecting national security, fi-
tional Organizations, Mr. Wilson Fer-
am referring to H.R. 11656, the "govern-
nancial institutions, trade secrets, agency
reira Aldunate, a respected conservative
ment in the sunshine" bill.
personnel proceedings, and other sensi-
figure in Uruguayan politics, has been
For too long, the Federal agencies
tive areas. The bill consequently guards
indicated by the Uruguayan miiltary
which have come to govern and deter-
against the indiscrete discussion of pri-
government and his property confis-
mine so many aspects of our lives, have
vate or highly critical issues. This is a
cated.
been conducting business without being
reasonable approach. Yet in requiring
Mr. Ferreira testified in a restrained
required to operate in full view of the
that portions of a closed meeting. in
and dignified manner on June 17, 1976
people for whom they exist. In my view,
which nonexempted material is dis-
before a House subcommittee investi-
this tendency toward secrecy has pro-
cussed, must be recorded for public re-
gating questions of human rights viola-
duced an unresponsive bureauracy and
view after the session is concluded the
tions in Uruguay. A former presidential
caused the alienation of the American
bill shows ample concern for the govern-
candidate of reputed good character,
people from their government.
ment process and the public interest.
Mr. Ferreira presentated information
The "government in the sunshine"
A further illustration of the balance in
about the present government of his na-
bill would require for the first time in
this bill is displayed by the nature of
tive land and the unfortunate abuse of
history, that this practice by govern-
meetings that are to be covered under
human rights in that country. His testi-
mental agencies cease. With the adop-
this measure. A meeting for the purposes
mony was among the most moving I
tion of this legislation, meetings and
of this bill will, broadly speaking, be an
have witnessed in any number of hear-
actions of these agencies would be sub-
assembly or simultaneous communica-
ings on the often emotional matters of
ject to the scrutiny of the American
tion between two or more people concern-
human rights.
people. Of course, certain exemptions
ing the conditions or deposition of agency
I find it, as I am sure my friends and
have been made; aspects dealing with
business. The openness, as a result, ap-
colleagues in this Chamber will, simply
national security, matters under the pri-
plies to business sessions as well as for-
deplorable that a foreign government
vacy acts, the judicial areas and some
mal decisionmaking meetings and does
should move against one of its citizens
6
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
H 7881
al
because that citizen has appeared before
old of approving the opening of meetings
man, I rise to express my full support for
be
3 committee or subcommittee of this
of agencies in the executive branch.
H.R. 11656, the proposed Federal Gov-
:-
body.
In a democracy, the people are the
ernment in the Sunshine Act. As a co-
For this reason, I strongly commend
source of power for the government. The
sponsor of this legislation, I commend
of
to all Members of the House this ac-
people have a right to know about the
the chairmen of the House Judiciary and
gs
count as reported in the New York
deliberations of their leaders on matters
Government Operations Committees,
56
Times:
that can affect them either directly or
Hon. PETER RODINO and JACK BROOKS,
to
USUGUAYAN EXILE FACES INDICTMENT-EX-
indirectly.
respectively, for their substantial efforts
se
MINISTER ALSO SAYS HIS PROPERTY Is CON-
My own State of Florida has had a
to assure a fair bill and to bring it before
go
FICATED
sunshire law since 1967 and the much-
the full membership of the House.
K-
(By George Goodman Jr.)
publicized effectiveness of this law de-
Madam Chairmen, an excerpt from the
An exiled Uruguayan who told a House
flates the arguments that government
Judiciary Committee's report on H.R.
o-
subcommittee last month that United States
functions best behind closed doors. Our
11656 succinetly states the basic prin-
at
policies helped maintain dictatorships in
Governor has remarked on many occa-
ciple of our system of government which
)V-
Uruguay and other Latin American coun-
sions that Florida's sunshine law has im-
this bill seeks to insure. I quote:
c's
tries says that as a result an indictment has
proved the working of government by
(it) assumes that citizens have the
been Issued by & military court and his hold-
providing for an open discussion of im-
right to know how their government operates
nd
Ings have been conficated.
In an interview last week, Wilson Ferreira
portant issues.
and what the government is doing for them
in-
Aldunate, a 57-year-old former senator who
The dawning of sunshine in the
and in their name.
the
was defeated for the presidency of Uruguay
executive branch is simply a natural pro-
We all know how low public confidence
ver
in a disputed election in 1972, said: "After
gression of openness on the Federal level.
in its government has sunk. We receive
000
my testimony in Washington, I learned of
In recent years, both the House and the
mail every day from constituents who
this
an indictment against me and an embargo
Senate have adopted new rules opening
suspect the "real motives" of a decision
this
on my property."
the great majority of committee meet-
by various Federal agencies or elected
too
The Uruguayan who testified before a
House subcommittee on international orga-
ings, including markup sessions, to the
public officials. We hear these same com-
(OV-
nizations on June 17, said he learned that
public. It is certainly time to extend this
plaints voiced in angry, disgusted, or,
and
the indictment without detailed charges,
openness to the nonelected executive
saddest of all, resigned tones when we re-
had been handed down against him on
agencies.
turn home. I believe that the reason this
6 as
July 8. He said that his conficated holdings
Our Government was founded on the
sentiment is so widespread is that people
re-
in Uruguay included a 5,000-acre ranch with
principle that ultimate power is vested
feel detached from their government.
imes
cattle, a home, an apartment in Montevideo.
in the people and that only an informed
Because of government's increasing
FIGHT MORE THAN EVER
citizenry can properly exercise this
tendency to conceal its inner workings
ance,
"The idea is to silience me, but I will work
power. In this, our Bicentennial Year,
and because they are not able to per-
gov-
to fight more than ever," Mr. Ferreira sald.
it is all the more fitting that the people
ceive their role in the decisionmaking
ower
"If necessary I would wash dishes."
have the opportunity to view the delib-
process, people begin to distrust their
with-
He added that he is an expert in agricul-
as of
erations of their executive agencies.
own government. They assume that they
ture. In 1965, as minister of agriculture, he
or a
Mr. HANNAFORD. Madam Chairman,
have no role, and the result of this con-
traveled here to renegotiate a $50 million
Uruguayan debt with United States banking
I urge support of H.R. 11656, the Govern-
clusion is unavoidably a decrease in con-
interests.
ment in the Sunshine Act. One of the
fidence in government.
ent in
worst problems with the growth of the
As serious as this confidence issue may
be a
In 1973. after the military persuaded
President Juan Maria Bordaberry to dissolve
Federal bureaucracy has been the in-
be, it is not the most dangerous conse-
nowl-
Congress, Mr. Ferreira and other legislators
sulation of Federal agencies from public
quence of secrecy in Government. This
vern-
fled to asylum in Buenos Aires.
scrutiny. If successful in finding his way
more serious potentiality was realized
After the Argentine military overthrew
through the labyrinth of bureaucratic
all too painfully in recent years in the
adam
President Isabel Martinez de Peron last
detours and referrals, the citizen's quest
numerous abuses of government known
ort in
March, he was forced to flee again along with
1976
his wife and son, first to Europe and then to
for information relating to Federal
collectively as Watergate. The Fathers
ish to
the United States.
agency regulations too often ends with
of our system, 200 years ago, knew why
At a news conference held here last month
the discovery that the information he
these abuses occur. They declared that
House
red at
by Amnesty International to protest wide-
seeks is either legally protected from
secrecy breeds a lack of accountability,
spread jailings and reported torture in Uru-
and nonaccountability breeds the breach-
Jr., a
public examination or conveniently not
guay, the former senator appealed to the
recorded. Nor does the citizen alone
ing of human rights.
United States to refrain from interfering
ly that
in his country's affairs as he also did before
suffer from this lack of accessibility: Our
I therefore strongly believe that ac-
fore a
the subcommittee.
own everyday experiences remind us of
tion by the Congress to reverse the re-
ational
the impenetrability of administrative
cent trend toward secrecy in govern-
ASKS END TO AID
terna-
agencies and their ability to frustrate
ment will contribute immeasurably to-
"We do not come to ask for your help or
a Fer-
congressional inquiries with a lack of
ward an elevation in public confidence
the intervention of the Government of the
rvative
United States to overthrow the dictatorship
documentation of administrative rule-
and the increased protection of our con-
S been
oppressing our people," he said.
making.
stitutional rights. The bill before us to-
He did ask for an end to "open, public
The Government in the Sunshine Act
day is a concrete, responsible step to-
niiltary
confis-
sustaining of those sectors responsible for
restores public accessibility to agency
ward this end. While recognizing quite
repression." As soon as military regimes come
proceedings, and this accessibility will
rightly that individual rights must be
to power, Mr. Ferreira said, the United States
trained
hopefully check the departmentalization
protected, and government must be as-
rushes in with a wide variety of assistance
of Federal power into feudal executive
sured the ability to carry out its re-
17, 1976
programs.
investi-
directorates. The public examination of
sponsibilities, it assumes that all U.S.
"But there is no uniform policy in Latin
3 viola-
America because the State Department does
Federal decisionmaking will improve the
citizens are entitled to know the rea-
idential
national debates on Government policies
sons for all decisions of the executive
not consider Latin America important
aracter,
enough," he added.
and keep the public informed of decisions
branch of Government for which the
rmation
In such cases, he continued, policy is
affecting them.
need to limit access is not clear or totally
his na-
created by embassy officials. "The smaller the
But most importantly. events of the
justifiable.
country the lower the level of bureaucrats
abuse of
recent past have given the public ade-
Madam Chairman, in recent years I
setting policy."
Its testi-
quate reason to be distrustful of Gov-
have joined several of my colleagues in
During the week that Mr. Ferreira ap-
loving I
ernment, and such distrust is destructive
actively supporting several proposals to
peared in Washington, the House of Repre-
of hear-
to a free society. Anything that we can
open up the decisionmaking process of
sentatives voted to stop military aid for
atters of
Uruguay.
do to restore faith in Government must
the legislative branch of Government to
be done. If the public wants to know
public scrutiny. I have initiated or sup-
Mr. BENNETT. Madam Chairman, I
what is going on behind closed doors, we
ported wholeheartedly efforts to provide
ends and
rise in support of H.R. 11656, the Govern-
1, simply
must open the doors. If this on occasion
for full lobying disclosure, for full finan-
ment in the Sunshine Act. I am cospon-
diminishes our efficiency of operation,
cial disclosure by Members of Congress,
vernment
soring this sunshine legislation and I
that is a sacrifice we must make.
citizens
for open comittee meetings, for televising
am glad that the House is on the thresh-
Mr. MATSUNAGA. Madam Chair-
the proceedings of Congress, and for re-
H 7882
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
July 28, 1976
quiring record teller votes on key amend-
agency to close a meeting and "no prox-
Finally, it should be noted that all
ments. Congress has become stronger for
ies shall be allowed."
committees retain the sole discretion un-
these reforms, for by preventing the op-
While clause 2(g) (1) of House Rules
der clause 2(k) (7) of rule XI over the
portunity for minority interests to con-
XI also requires 2 majority rolicall vote
release of information received or dis-
trol the legislative process via conceal-
of a committee to close a meeting, clause
cussed in executive session. Unlike the
ment, the will of the majority has been
2(f) permits general proxies "for motions
sunshine bill, they are under no obliga-
assured its role as the crucial decision-
to recess, adjourn or other procedural
tion to make public the sanitized por-
making factor. It is time that we extend
matters." In other words, proxies may
tions of such transcripts. And unlike the
the same requirements of full public
be used in House committees for the pur-
sunshine bill committees cannot be chal-
scrutiny to the decisions of the execu-
pose of closing a meeting.
lenged in a court of law over their com-
tive branch. I therefore commend the
On January 29, 1975, I introduced Res-
pliance with the various sunshine
pending Sunshine Act to the House,
olution 113 to ban all proxy voting in
requirements.
and urge that it be given the overwhelm-
House committees. That resolution now
Madam Chairman, as one who has long
ing support which it so clearly deserves.
has 91 cosponsors. It is still stuck in the
advocated more sunshine in the House,
Mr. ANDERSON of Illinois. Madam
House Rules Committee.
I think it is a bit duplicitous and hypo-
Chairman, when the chairman of the
TRANSCRIPTS AND MINUTES OF MEETINGS
critical for us to impose more sunshine
Government Operations Committee (Mr.
Section 3(f) of the sunshine bill re-
requirements on Federal agencies than
BROOKS) testified before our Rules Com-
quires that a veritable transcript be kept
we are willing to abide in our own rules
mittee on May 19. 1976, he explained
of all closed agency meetings and that
and committees. If we are going to spread
that the purpose of this Government in
all but protected portions be made
this sunshine around, let us do it in such
the Sunshine Act was "to bring to the
promptly available to the public and that
a way that both branches are exposed to
executive branch some of the sunshine
copies be furnished to the public at no
an equal amount of light and heat. I
we have been enjoying here in Congress
greater than the cost of duplication or
hardly think the argument can be made
for the past few years."
transcription. Likewise, agencies are re-
that the Congress is any less a public
As the author of nine "Open House
quired to keep minutes of all open meet-
body than are the Federal agencies which
Amendments" which would truly bring
ings and make these promptly available
are covered under this sunshine bill.
more sunshine into the House and its
to the public, again providing copies at
Mr. ANDERSON of California. Madam
committees, I was extremely interested
no greater than cost of duplication.
Chairman, I rise in strong support of
in the chairman's statement and set
Clause 2(e) of House Rule XI requires
H.R. 11656, the Government in the Sun-
about to determine just how parallel
each committee to "keep a complete rec-
shine Act.
this "sunshine bill" is to our own House
ord of all committee action" but only the
In effect, this legislation ends secret
rules. Much to my amazement, though I
"result of each
rollcall vote need be
deliberations by Federal agencies, ex-
guess I should not have been surprised
made available by the committee for in-
cept in the most sensitive cases. The pro-
given the fact that we tend to be tougher
spection by the public at reasonable
visions apply to 47 regulatory agencies
on the executive branch than ourselves,
times in the offices of the committee." All
that are covered by the Freedom of In-
I found that this "sunshine" bill far ex-
other information "shall be the property
formation Act, and those headed by a
ceeds any sunshine requirements which
of the House and all Members of the
body of two or more members, a majority
now apply to House committees. In effect,
House shall have access thereto." In
of whom are nominated by the President
this 'bill establishes a double standard
other words, unlike the sunshine bill,
and confirmed by the Senate.
for sunshine between the two branches,
there is no requirement in the House
I believe the words of Thomas Jeffer-
and we come out as being the shadier of
rules that a verbatim transcript be kept
son best summarize why I was pleased
the two branches of Government.
of all closed committee meetings, let
to add my name in cosponsorship of this
Madam Chairman, this conclusion is
alone that it be made available to the
legislation. Jefferson said:
based on an examination of the House
public. And while, like the sunshine bill,
The will of the people is the only legiti-
Rules, the published rules of each of its
standing committees, and a followup
our rules require that a complete record
mate foundation of any government. I know
be kept of all committee action, only the
of no safe depository of the ultimate powers
phone survey which my staff conducted.
The results of this three-part sunshine
rollcall vote portions of the minutes need
of the society but the people themselves.
Whenever the people are well-informed, they
inquiry and comparative analysis are
be open to public inspection.
can be trusted with their own government;
shocking, to say the least. Let us go down
On January 29, 1975, I introduced
whenever things get so far wrong as to
the list of what this bill requires as com-
House Resolution 112 to require that all
attract their notice, they may be relied on
pared to what is now required or prac-
committee records, except for informa-
to set them to rights. Nothing then is
ticed by our House committees.
tion whose disclosure would endanger
unchangeable but the inherent and inalien-
national security or violate any law or
able rights of man. I have great confidence
OPEN MEETINGS
in the common sense of mankind.
rule of the House, should be open to pub-
Section 3 of H.R. 11656, the sunshine
lic inspection. That resolution now has
I urge your support for this legisla-
bill, states that all portions of all meet-
82 cosponsors and it is still gathering
tion.
ings of Federal agencies headed by two
dust in the House Rules Committee.
Mr. VANIK. Madam Chairman, I am
or more individuals appointed by the
Madam Chairman, our followup check
pleased to speak in support of H.R.
President shall be open to public obser-
of committee rules reveals that most are
11656, the Government in the Sunshine
vation, and then goes on to list 10 narrow
in conformity with the minimal require-
Act, a bill to insure that the public will
exceptions to that rule.
ments of the House rules, and not many
have the open and responsive Federal
Clause 2(g) (1) of House Rule XI states
have broader sunshine provisions. It
agencies to which they are fully en-
that a committee meeting may be closed
should be noted, though, that most com-
titled. I particularly support section
by majority vote for any reason.
mittee markup sessions are now open to
552b(f) (1), requiring a complete tran-
On January 29, 1975, I introduced
the public. Moreover, many committees
script or full recording of each meet-
House Resolution 114 to amend clause
do permit persons to inspect committee
ing, or portion of a meeting, which is
2(g) (1) of House Rule XI to require
minutes and copy them, though few com-
closed to the public; and section 552b(f)
that all committee meetings be open to
mittes provide a duplication service.
(2), requiring that minutes be kept of
the public unless matters to be discussed
Thus, actual committee practices are
open meetings and made available to the
would endanger national security, vio-
often somewhat more lenient than House
public.
late any law or rule of the House, or in-
or committee rules would suggest. Never-
I believe that H.R. 11656 will greatly
volves internal budgetary or personnel
theless, these practices vary greatly from
improve the accountability of Federal
matters-roughly the same rule which
committee to committee and presuma-
regulatory agencies, whose decisions
now applies to committee hearings. My
bly are subject to the dictates and whims
have the effect of law. However, I be-
resolution now has 87 cosponsors and it
of the committee chairman. Some com-
lieve that Congress should demand the
is still languishing in the House Rules
mittees will not even permit Members'
same openness of our own committees
Committee.
individual staff to make Xerox copies of
that we would require Federal agencies
VOTE TO CLOSE MEETINGS
meeting transcripts which are open to
to have. As many Members of Congress
Section 3(d) (1) of the sunshine bill
public inspection, thus forcing time-
are aware, I have been involved in a
requires a rollcall majority vote of the
consuming copying by hand.
dramatic example of the need for open-
GERALD
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
H 7883
ness in our own legislative conference
vision for open conference meetings al-
The 10 exempted areas parallel those
committees.
ready passed by the Senate as part of
covered under the Freedom of Informa-
The conference committees effectively
S. 5, together with recordkeeping re-
tion Act. They run the gamut from na-
act as a third legislative body, disassem-
quirements similar to those included in
tional security and foreign policy infor-
bling and redrafting the original bills of
H.R. 11656. The public would then be
mation, to accusations of individual
the House and the Senate. The final
protected from the abuses fostered by
criminal acts, and certain information
product can resemble a legislative Fran-
the shoud of secrecy beneath which con-
on the regulation of securities, currency,
kenstein for which no one wants credit
ference committees are now free to op-
and financial institutions. The bill re-
or blame. The original intent of the bill
erate.
quires that when an agency closes a meet-
can be perverted without a clue as to
Mr. LEGGETT. Madam Chairman,
ing under 1 of the 10 exemptions, it must
the source of the changes.
openness in Government must be a guid-
make a recording or verbatim transcript
I specifically refer to the Tax Reduc-
ing precept of any true democrat. I am
of the closed portion and release to the
tion Act of 1975, which became Public
heartened that it represents a plank in
public all parts which do not actu-
Law 94-12 with new language grafted
my party's 1976 platform and a major
ally contain exempt information. I might
onto section 907-language which had
goal of our Presidential nominee. It is
add that Dr. Arthur Burns, head of the
not been part of either the House or the
thus particularly timely for the House to
Federal Reserve Board, who has been so
Senate version of the bill. The result was
take another major step toward fulfill-
receptive to congressional influence in
the creation of an enormous tax loop-
ment of that goal by passage of H.R.
monetary policy, opposes this bill because
hole, primarily benefiting the four cor-
11656, the Government in the Sunshine
of the transcript requirement; but has
porate owners of the ARAMCO oil con-
bill.
admitted that all of his meetings on
sortium, to the detriment of the Ameri-
In considering this bill, we must look
monetary policy and bank regulation
can public who lost $35 million in annual
back to first principles. Ours is a Govern-
could be closed.
tax revenues.
ment by consent of the governed. If the
Irealize that there is much controversy
I have previously described my efforts
people are to exercise their right and
surrounding the definition of those meet-
to determine the source of section 907
duty of consent, they must know. It is
ings which would be subject to the "sun-
(c) (3). My efforts were thwarted by the
not enough that the people's representa-
shine" requirement, as well as the pro-
lack of meaningful records, as is often
tives know, for the authority conferred
vision for transcripts of closed meetings.
the case where closed meetings are held.
on the Executive by the Legislature ulti-
I say, however, that if we are to err, let
The committee conference members,
mately flows from the people. And, if
us err for once on the side of openness.
with only their personal recollections to
Government is to be in reality the servant
We have had a great deal of secrecy in
go by, could not recall how the language
of the people, rather than the reverse,
our post-war Government. Why not try
responsible for the loophole became part
then Government must be fully account-
a whole lot of openness for a change.
of the law. No one could even recall if
able to a knowing public for its official
In any event, let us not permit these
it had ever been discussed. Given the
acts.
issues to deflect us from the fundamental
extreme pressure under which confer-
Madam Chairman, the issue posed here
principle involved in this bill. We in the
ence committees normally work-in a
is basically simple. The modern leviathan
Congress have taken the big step of open-
race against time to complete legislation
which the executive branch has become
ing our committee and conference meet-
before the close of Congress-it is only
in the last 3 decades has become accus-
ings to the public, including markup ses-
surprising that this sort of mutation
tomed to doing its business largely in-
sions in the House. There is no reason
of legislation does not happen more of-
sulated from the people. The question
why we should expect any less of deci-
ten. The more complex a piece of legis-
is whether we are going to take another
sionmakers in the executive branch.
tion is, the more hopeless it becomes to
needed step in the direction of reversing
I urge my colleagues to support H.R.
account for any single change in its
that trend.
11656 as another key step toward putting
wording or intent without the availabil-
We enacted the original Freedom of
democratic theory into practice.
ity of accurate records.
Information Act, with the goal of making
documents of executive departments and
Mr. SIKES. Madam Chairman, let me
The agruments for requiring Federal
regulatory agencies to hold open meet-
agencies generally available to the pub-
begin by saying that I wholeheartedly
ings with reliable records clearly apply
lic, in 1966. And in 1974, we passed the
agree with the objectives of this legisla-
with even more force to the conference
major strengthening amendments need-
tion. Coming from a State that pioneered
D
committees who give our laws their final
ed to translate that objective into reality.
"Government in the Sunshine," I feel
form. An agency ruling or decision hav-
The purposes of the bill before us are
also that I possess a broader view of the
ing unanticipated and undesirable effects
basically twofold. One is to open to the
pitfalls that can await us if the legisla-
can be corrected with far greater speed
public the meetings of multimember Fed-
tion under consideration is adopted in its
and fewer complications than the prod-
eral agencies, except for discussions
present form.
uct of a conference committee. Presently,
which fall within 10 exempted areas.
My study of the bill leads me to the
a bill can become law before anyone has
The other is to prohibit ex parte com-
conclusion that what we are doing in
time to realize the harm that even a
munications between agency decision-
our zeal to open Government to the peo-
m
seemingly minor change in the wording
makers and interested parties, so as to
ple, is creating a legal nightmare that
can cause because only the end product
insure that agency decisions which are
can keep Government bogged down in an
of the committee work is readily avail-
supposed to be based on a public record
endless process of defending itself.
ill
able to Members who are expected to
are not influenced by private, off-the-
I call attention to four provisions of
al
vote it into law. As was the case with
record communications.
the bill that greatly disturb me. First. A
&
the tax reform bill there may be efforts
The open meeting rule would apply
lawsuit can be brought and the attorney
by those who benefit from the unplanned
to about 50 Federal regulatory agencies,
fees and costs are guaranteed merely if
n-
loophole to enlarge it. I have introduced
to all others which are covered by the
the plaintiff "substantially prevails." Sec-
a bill. H.R. 13352, to repeal the question-
Freedom of Information Act, and to those
ond. A plaintiff not only can obtain per-
is
able language of the Tax Reduction Act.
which are headed by a body of two or
sonal costs against individual members of
However my efforts to take up this leg-
more members, a majority of whom is
an agency in certain cases, but costs can-
of
Inlation for have not been successful thus
appointed by the President and con-
not be assessed against him even if he
firmed by the Senate. It is also explicitly
loses, unless it can be proven that the
Open conference committee meetings
made applicable to the Federal Election
lawsuit was instigated for purely frivoli-
tly
would result in improved legislation.
Commission and the Postal Service. I
ous and dilatory purposes. Think for a
Purthermore. a record-keeping require-
might add, as an aside, that the public
moment of the position of the dedicated
ment, AS in H.R. 11656, would have the
will doubtless be interested, though hard-
public servant. I personally feel it would
súded benefit of providing improved leg-
the
Wative histories so that courts can in-
ly inspired, to learn how the moguls of
further hamper our efforts to obtain
the Postal Service arrive at some of their
terport Lawn as Congress intends. Legisla-
qualified persons to work for Govern-
Bon has already been introduced to
singularly effective decisions, such as the
ment. Third. Perhaps the most indefensi-
Protecty the problem of the closed con-
one to spend a billion or so on machines
ble provision of the bill is the one that
Terence The House should adopt the pro-
which speed up parcel post by the rip-
allows a person to bring a lawsuit in his
and-shred method.
own home district against any agency
zo, 1976
covered in this act regardless of where
"(c) Except in a case where the agency
close a portion or portions of an agency
that agency held the meeting.
finds that the public interest requires other-
meeting shall be taken only when a majority
These points alone will provide you
wise, subsection (b) shall not apply to any
of the entire membership of the agency votes
with some idea of the legal nightmare we
portion of an agency meeting and the re-
to take such action. A separate vote of the
quirements of subsection (d) and (e) shall
agency members shall be taken with respect
are creating.
not apply to any information pertaining to
to each agency meeting a portion or portions
In closing I wish to speak to a fourth
such meeting otherwise required by this
of which are proposed to be closed to the
provision that troubles me. That provi-
section to be disclosed to the public, where
public pursuant to subsection (c). A single
sion is the requirement that transcripts
the agency properly determines that such
vote may be taken with respect to a series
be kept of all closed meetings and be
portion or portions of its meeting or the
of portions of meetings which are proposed
made availble with proper regard for na-
disclosure of such information is likely to
to be closed to the public, or with respect to
tional security and other exceptions
"(1) disclose matters (A) specifically au-
any information concerning such series, so
listed. While the intent is to provide the
thorized under criteria established by an Ex-
long as each portion of a meeting in such
agency with a tool for defense in the
ecutive order to be kept secret in the inter-
series involves the same particular matters,
ests of national defense or foreign policy and
and is scheduled to be held no more than
event of lawsuits, it also provides a great
(B) in fact properly classified pursuant to
thirty days after the initial portion of a
temptation to those who would like to
such Executive order;
meeting in such series. The vote of each
become instant heroes with the media. I
"(2) relate solely to the internal personnel
agency member participating in such vote
think the House has proved conclusively
rules and practices of an agency;
shall be recorded and no proxies shall be
that secrets are hard to keep.
"(3) disclose information required or per-
allowed.
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
mitted to be withheld from the public by
"(2) Whenever any person whose interests
any statute establishing particular criteria
may be directly affected by a portion of a
have no further requests for time.
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, have
or referring to particular types of informa-
meeting requests that the agency close such
tion;
portion to the public for any of the reasons
no further requests for time.
"(4) disclose trade secrets and commercial
referred to in paragraph (5), (6), or (7) of
The CHAIRMAN. The Clerk will read.
or financial information obtained from a per-
subsection (c), the agency, upon request of
The Clerk read as follows:
son and privileged or confidential;
any one of its members, shall vote by re-
Be it enacted by the Senate and House of
"(5) involve accusing any person of a
corded vote whether to close such meeting.
Representatives of the United States of
crime, or formally censuring any person;
"(3) Within one day of any vote taken pur-
America in Congress assembled, That this
"(6) disclose information of a personal
suant to paragraph (1) or (2), the agency
Act may be cited as the "Government in the
nature where disclosure would constitute a
shall make publicly available a written copy
Sunshine Act".
clearly unwarranted invasion of personal
of such vote reflecting the vote of each mem-
privacy;
ber on the question. If a portion of a meet-
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE
"(7) disclose investigatory records com-
ing is to be closed to the public, the agency
OFFERED BY MR. FLOWERS
piled for law enforcement purposes, or in-
shall, within one day of the vote taken pur-
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman, I
formation which if written would be con-
suant to paragraph (1) or (2) of this sub-
offer an amendment in the nature of a
tained in such records, but only to the extent
section, make publicly available a full written
substitute.
that the production of such records or in-
explanation of its action closing the portion
formation would (A) interfere with enforce-
together with a list of all persons expected to
The Clerk read as follows:
ment proceedings, (B) deprive a person of
attend the meeting and their affiliation.
Amendment in the nature of a substitute
a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudi-
"(4) Any agency, a majority of whose
offered by Mr. FLOWERS: Strike out all after
cation, (C) constitute an unwarranted in-
meetings may properly be closed to the pub-
the enacting clause and insert in lieu thèreof
vasion of personal privacy, (D) disclose the
lic pursuant to paragraph (4), (8), (9) (A),
the following:
identity of a confidential source and, in the
or (10) of subsection (c), or any combina-
That this Act may be cited as the "Govern-
case of a record compiled by a criminal law
tion thereof, may provide by regulation for
ment in the Sunshine Act".
enforcement authority in the course of a
the closing of such meetings or portions
DECLARATION OF POLICY
criminal investigation, or by an agency con-
thereof in the event that a majority of the
SEC. 2. It is hereby declared to be the policy
ducting a lawful national security intelli-
members of the agency votes by recorded
gence investigation, confidential information
vote at the beginning of such meeting, or
of the United States that the public is en-
titled to the fullest practicable information
furnished only by the confidential source,
portion thereof, to close the exempt portion
(E) disclose investigative techniques and
or portions of the meeting, and a copy of
regarding the decisionmaking processes of the
Federal Government. It is the purpose of this
procedures, or (F) endanger the life or physi-
such vote, reflecting the vote of each mem-
Act to provide the public with such infor-
cal safety of law enforcement personnel;
ber on the question, is made available to the
"(8) disclose information contained in or
public. The provisions of paragraphs (1),
mation while protecting the rights of in-
related to examination, operating, or condi-
(2), and (3) of this subsection and subsec-
dividuals and the ability of the Government
tion reports prepared by, on behalf of, or for
tion (e) shall not apply to any portion of a
to carry out its responsibilities.
the use of any agency responsible for the
meeting to which such regulations apply:
OPEN MEETINGS
regulation or supervision of financial insti-
Provided, That the agency shall, except to
Sec. 3. (a) Title 5, United States Code, is
tutions;
the extent that such information is exempt
amended by adding after section 552a the
"(9) disclose information the premature
from disclosure under the provisions of sub-
following new section:
disclosure of which would-
section (c), provide the public with public
"§ 552b. Open meetings
"(A) in the case of an agency which reg-
announcement of the date, place, and sub-
ulates currencies, securities, commodities, or
ject matter of the meeting and each portion
"(a) For purposes of this section-
financial institutions, be likely to (i) lead
thereof at the earliest practicable time and
(1) the term 'agency' means the Federal
Election Commission and any agency, as de-
to significant financial speculation, or (ii)
in no case later than the commencement of
fined in section 552(e) of this title, headed
significantly endanger the stability of any
the meeting or portion in question.~
financial institution: or
"(e) In the case of each meeting, the
by a collegial body composed of two or more
"(B) in the case of any agency, be likely to
agency shall make public announcement, at
individual members, a majority of whom are
significantly frustrate implementation of a
least one week before the meeting, of the
appointed to such position by the President
proposed agency action, except that this sub-
date, place, and subject matter of the meet-
with the advice and consent of the Senate,
paragraph shall not apply in any instance
ing, whether it is to be open or closed
and includes any subdivision thereof author-
after the content or nature of the proposed
to the public, and the name and phone num-
ized to act on behalf of the agency;
agency action has been disclosed to the pub-
ber of the official designated by the agency
"(2) the term 'meeting' means an assembly
lic by the agency, unless the agency is re-
to respond to requests for information about
or simultaneous communication concerning
quired by law to make such disclosure prior
the meeting. Such announcement shall be
the joint conduct or disposition of agency
to taking final agency action on such pro-
made unless a majority of the members of
business by two or more, but at least the
posal, or after the agency publishes or serves
the agency determines by a recorded vote
number of individual agency members re-
a substantive rule pursuant to section 553 (d)
that agency business requires that such
quired to take action on behalf of the agency,
of this title; or
meeting be called at an earlier date, in which
but does not include meetings required or
"(10) specifically concern the agency's
case the agency shall make public announce-
permitted by subsection (d); and
issuance of a subpena, or the agency's par-
ment of the date, place, and subject matter
"(3) the term 'member' means an individ-
ticipation in a civil action or proceeding, an
of such meeting, and whether open or closed
ual who belongs to a collegial body heading
action in a foreign court or international tri-
to the public, at the earliest practicable time
an agency.
bunal, or an arbitration, or the initiation,
and in no case later than the commence-
"(b) (1) Members as described in subsec-
conduct, or disposition by the agency of a
ment of the meeting or portion in question.
tion (a) (2) shall not jointly conduct or dis-
particular case of formal agency adjudica-
The time, place, or subject matter of a meet-
pose of agency business without complying
tion pursuant to the procedures in section
ing, or the determination of the agency to
with subsections (b) through (g).
554 of this title or otherwise involving a
open or close a meeting, or portion of a
(2) Except as provided in subsection (c),
determination on the record after opportu-
meeting, to the public, may be changed fol-
every portion of every meeting of an agency
nity for a liearing,
lowing the public announcement required by
shall be open to public observation.
(d) (1) Action under subsection (c) to
this paragraph only if (1) a majority of
GERALD
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORDHOUSE
H 7885
the entire membership of the agency deter-
of this section, such action may be insti-
(b) The chapter analysis of chapter 5 of
mines by a recorded vote that agency busi-
tuted pursuant to this section at any time
title 5, United States Code, is amended by
ness so requires and that no earller an-
prior to sixty days after any public an-
inserting:
nouncement of the change was possible, and
nouncement of such meeting. Such actions
"552b. Open meetings."
(2) the agency publicly announces such
may be brought in the district court of the
change and the vote of each member upon
United States for the district in which the
immediately below:
such change at the earliest practicable time
agency meeting is held, or in the District
"552a. Records about individuals.".
and in no case later than the commencement
Court for the District of Columbia, or where
EX PARTE COMMUNICATIONS
of the meeting or portion in question.
the agency in question has its headquarters.
SEC. 4. (a) Section 557 of title 5, United
"(f) (1) A complete transcript or electronic
In such actions a defendant shall serve his
States Code, is amended by adding at the
recording adequate to record fully the pro-
answer within twenty days after the service
end thereof the following new subsection:
ceedings shall be made of each meeting, or
of the complaint, but such time may be
"(d) (1) In any agency proceeding which
portion of a meeting, closed to the public,
extended by the court for up to twenty ad-
is subject to subsection (a) of this section,
except for a meeting, or portion of a meet-
ditional days upon a showing of good cause
except to the extent required for the disposi-
ing. closed to the public pursuant to para-
therefor. The burden is on the defendant to
tion of ex parte matters as authorized by
graph (10) of subsection (c). The agency
sustain his action. In deciding such cases
law-
shall make promptly available to the public,
the court may examine in camera any por-
"(A) no interested person outside the
in a location easily accessible to the public,
tion of a transcript or electronic recording
agency shall make or cause to be made to any
the complete transcript or electronic record-
of a meeting closed to the public, and may
member of the body comprising the agency,
ing of the discussion at such meeting of any
take such additional evidence as it deems
administrative law judge, or other employee
item on the agenda, or of the testimony
necessary. The court, having due regard for
who is or may reasonably be expected to be
of any witness received at such meeting, ex-
orderly administration and the public in-
involved in the decisional process of the pro-
cept for such portion or portions of such
terest, as well as the interests of the party,
ceeding an ex parte communication relative
discussion or testimony as the agency de-
may grant such equitable relief as it dems.
to the merits of the proceeding;
termines to contain information specified in
appropriate, including granting an injunc-
"(B) no member of the body comprising
paragraphs (1) through (10) of subsection
tion against future violations of this section,
the agency, administrative law judge, or other
(c). Copies of such transcript, or a trans-
or ordering the agency to make available to
employee who is or may reasonably be ex-
cription of such electronic recording dis-
the public such portion of the transcript or
pected to be involved in the decisional process
closing the identity of each speaker, shall
electronic recording of a meeting as is not
of the proceeding, shall make or cause to be
be furnished to any person at no greater
authorized to be withheld under subsection
made to any interested person outside the
than the actual cost of duplication or trans-
(c) of this section. Nothing in this section
agency an ex parte communication relative
cription or, if the public interest, at no cost.
confers jurisdiction on any district court
to the merits of the proceeding;
The agency shall maintain a complete ver-
acting solely under this subsection to set
"(C) a member of the body comprising the
batim copy of the transcript, or a complete
aside, enjoin or invalidate any agency ac-
agency, administrative law judge, or other
electronic recording of each meeting, or por-
tion taken or discussed at an agency meeting
employee who is or may reasonably be ex-
tion of a meeting, closed to the public, for
out of which the violation of this section
pected to be involved in the decisional process
a period of at least two years after such
arose.
of such proceeding who receives, or who
meeting, or until one year after the conclu-
"(i) The court may assess against any
makes or causes to be made, a communica-
sion of any agency proceeding with respect
party reasonable attorney fees and other liti-
tion prohibited by this subsection shall place
to which the meeting, or a portion thereof,
gation costs reasonably incurred by any other
on the public record of the proceeding:
was held, whichever occurs later.
party who substantially prevails in any ac-
"(i) all such written communications;
"(2) Written minutes shall be made of any
tion brought in accordance with the provi-
"(ii) memoranda stating the substance of
agency meeting, or portion thereof, which is
sions of subsection (g) or (h) of this section,
all such oral communications; and
open to the public. The agency shall make
except that costs may be assessed against
"(iii) all written responses, and memoranda
such minutes promptly available to the pub-
the plaintiff only where the court finds that
stating the substance of all oral responses, to
lic in a location easily accessible to the pub-
the suit was initiated by the plaintiff pri-
the materials described in clauses (i) and (ii)
lic, and shall maintain such minutes for &
marily for frivolous or dilatory purposes. In
of this subparagraph;
period of at least two years after such meet-
the case of assessment of costs against an
"(D) in the event of a communication pro-
ing. Copies of such minutes shall be fur-
agency, the costs may be assessed by the
hibited by this subsection and made or
nished to any person at no greater than the
court against the United States.
caused to be made by a party or interested
actual cost of duplication thereof or, if in
"(j) Each agency subject to the require-
person, the agency, administrative law judge,
the public interest, at no cost.
ments of this section shall annually report
or other employee presiding at the hearing
to Congress regarding its compliance with
may, to the extent consistent with the in-
"(g) Each agency subject to the require-
such requirements, including a tabulation of
ments of this section shall, within 180 days
terests of justice and the policy of the under-
the total number of agency meetings open
after the date of enactment of this section,
lying statutes, require the person or party to
to the public, the total number of meetings
show cause why his claim or interest in the
following consultation with the Office of the
closed to the public, the reasons for closing
Chairman of the Administrative Conference
proceeding should not be dismissed, denied,
such meetings, and a description of any liti-
of the United States and published notice
disregarded, or otherwise adversely affected
gation brought against the agency under
on account of such violation; and
in the Federal Register of at least thirty
this section, including any costs assessed
"(E) the prohibitions of this subsection
days and opportunity for written comment
against the agency in such litigation
by any persons, promulgate regulations to
shall apply beginning at such time as the
(whether or not paid by the agency).
implement the requirements of subsections
agency may designate, but in no case shall
"(k) Except as specifically provided in this
(b) through (f) of this section. Any person
they begin to apply later than the time at
section, nothing herein expands or limits the
may bring a proceeding in the United States
which a proceeding is noticed for hearing
present rights of any person under section
District Court for the District of Columbia
unless the person responsible for the com-
552 of this title, except that provisions of
to require an agency to promulgate such
munication has knowledge that it will be
this Act shall govern in the case of any re-
regulations if such agency has not promul-
noticed, in which case the prohibitions shall
gated such regulations within the time pe-
quest made pursuant to such section to copy
apply beginning at the time of his acquisition
or inspect the transcripts or electronic re-
mod specified herein. Subject to any limita-
of such knowledge.
Nons of time therefor provided by law, any
cordings described in subsection (f) of this
"(2) This section does not constitute au-
section. The requirements of chapter 33 of
person may bring a proceeding in the United
thority to withhold information from Con-
States Court of Appeals for the District of
title 44, United States Code, shall not apply
gress.".
Columbia to set aside agency regulations is-
to the transcripts and electronic recordings
(b) Section 551 of title 5, United States
sued pursuant to this subsection that are
described in subsection (f) of this section.
Code, is amended-
not in accord with the requirements of sub-
"(1) This section does not, constitute au-
(1) by striking out "and" at the end of
sections (b) through (f) of this section,
thority to withhold any information from
paragraph (12);
and to require the promulgation of regu-
Congress, and does not authorize the closing
(2) by striking out the "act." at the end
pertions. Istions that are in accord with such sub-
of any agency meeting or portion thereof
of paragraph (13) and inserting in lieu
otherwise required by law to be open.
thereof "act: and"; and
"(m) Nothing in this section authorizes
The district courts of the United
(3) by adding at the end thereof the fol-
Ditates have jurisdiction to enforce the re-
any agency to withhold from any individual
lowing new paragraph:
quirements of subsections (b) through (f)
any record, including transcripts or elec-
"(14) 'ex parte communication' means an
of this section. Such actions may be brought
tronic recordings required by this Act, which
oral or written communication not on the
by any person against an agency prior to,
is otherwise accessible to such individual
public record with respect to which reason-
under section 552a of this title.
or within sixty days after, the meeting out
able prior notice to all parties is not given.".
of which the violation of this section arises,
"(n) In the event that any meeting is
(c) Section 556(d) of title 5, United
that if public announcement of such
subject to the provisions of the Federal Ad-
States Code, is amended by inserting be-
streting is not thitially provided by the
visory Committee Act as well as the provi-
tween the third and fourth sentences thereof
in accordance with the requirements
sions of this section, the provisions of this
the following new sentence: "The agency
section shall govern.".
may, to the extent consistent with the in-
H 7886
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
July 28, 1976
terests of justice and the policy of the un-
determined that the intent of the bill
Amendment offered by Mr. PASCELL to the
derlying statutes administered by the agency,
could be adequately carried out by delet-
amendment in the nature of a substitute
consider a violation of section 557(d) of this
ing this provision and similarly deleting
offered by Mr. FLOWERS: Page 10, line 12, after
title sufficient grounds for a decision adverse
"subsection (c)." add the following: "In
to a person or party who has committed such
the provision requiring a written expla-
place of each portion deleted from such a
violation or caused such violation to occur.".
nation of the reason and statutory basis
transcript or transcription the agency shall
for each deletion.
CONFORMING AMENDMENTS
supply 2 written explanation of the reason
This is, Madam Chairman, where we
for the deletion, and the portion of subsec-
SEC. 5. (a) Section 410(b) (1) of title 39,
cross swords over the matter of the
tion (c) and any other statute said to permit
United States Code, is amended by inserting
after "Section 552 (public information),'
written explanation and the statutory
the deletion.".
the words "section 552a (records about in-
basis for the deletion. And I hope the
Mr. FASCELL Madam Chairman, the
dividuals), section 552b (opening meet-
Members will oppose the gentleman from
bill provides that most of the meetings
ings),"
Florida's amendment.
must be open to the public and it requires
(b) Section 552(b) (3) of title 5, United
Mr. FASCELL. Madam Chairman, will
that transcripts be made of the meet-
States Code, is amended to read as follows:
the gentleman yield?
"(3) required or permitted to be withheld
ings that are closed under the 10 ex-
Mr. FLOWERS. I yield to the gentle-
from the public by any statute establishing
emptions. Transcripts are required for
man from Florida.
particular criteria or referring to particular
two reasons; One is so that any portion
types of information;"
Mr. FASCELL I thank the gentleman
of the meeting that turns out not to con-
for yielding.
EFFECTIVE DATE
tain exempt material may be released to
If the gentleman will permit me, let
SEC. 6. (a) Except as provided in subsec-
the public, and in case a suit is brought
me express my appreciation first to him
tion (b) of this section, the provisions of this
by the citizen. Under this bill of course
Act shall take effect one hundred and eighty
and his subcommittee for the very care-
that is a remedy a citizen has when a
days after the date of its enactment.
ful and thorough consideration he gave
meeting is wrongfully closed.
(b) Subsection (g) of section 552b of title
this bill, and for the prompt manner in
The original bill considered by the
5, United States Code, as added by section
which he acted on the bill. I also have
Government Operations Committee re-
3(a) of this Act, shall take effect upon en-
no objection to the amendments except
quires when material is deleted the
actment.
the difference on the one the gentleman
agency must state the reason and the
Mr. FLOWERS (during the reading).
has pointed out. I intend to offer an
statutory basis therefore and give a sum-
Madam Chairman, I ask unanimous con-
amendment here as soon as I can to
mary or paraphrase of the deleted mate-
sent that the amendment in the nature
read that in place of each portion deleted
rial. Because some agencies objected to
of a substitute be considered as read,
from such transcript, the agency shall
the requirement of the summary or para-
and printed in the RECORD.
supply a written explanation of the rea-
phrase, that was dropped by the Govern-
The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection to
son, et cetera, simply on the theory that
ment Operations Committee, leaving only
the request of the gentleman from
if we are going to be faced with pages
the requirements for the reason and the
Alabama?
of deletion, at least we ought to know
statutory basis.
There was no objection.
what the citation of the statute is and
some explanation of the deletion.
Then the bill went to the Judiciary
(Mr. FLOWERS asked and was given
Committee which recommend even that
permission to revise and extend his re-
Mr. FLOWERS. I understand the gen-
tleman fully, and it would only be my
language be removed, and it is that
marks.)
language which I seek to restore to the
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman,
concern that we could get too specific
bill, so that if there is a deletion we
on the amendment in the nature
here, and that the reason for the dele-
tion might require too much elaboration
would have at least to give the reason and
of a substitute, which represents all
of the amendments adopted in the
and could be an onerous task.
statutory citation. We maintain that is
Let me say before I stop here that I
not unreasonable. It does not put an
Committee on the Judiciary as well as all
fully support the legislation. I think it
unnecessary or intolerable burden on the
the committee amendments of the Com-
mittee on Government Operations, I do
is an excellent piece of work that the
agency. But obviously all of us have had
not know that there is a great deal of
gentleman's committee has done, the
experience in dealing with our own tran-
gentlewoman from New York (Ms.
scripts where we are mét with pages and
controversy save in one particular and I
ABZUG), the gentleman from Texas (Mr.
pages of blank spaces which simply say
would speak to this one which I believe to
BROOKS), and all of the members of the
"deletion." We can get nothing out of it.
be in controversy and then will have
something to say in reference to what I
Committee on Government Operations.
I can understand why we might not want
know will be the allegations of the oppo-
You have brought us an excellent piece
to put a summary in and we have left
nents of this amendment. In one of the
of work, something that has been long
that out, but I see no reason why we can-
amendments that the Committee on the
coming. And I think that the agencies
not say "security deletion, Public Law
Judiciary recommends in its package, in
are going to find that the rays of sun-
1234, paragraph (a), (b), or (c) That
is not so bad.
regard to subsection (f) of the new sec-
shine do not really bother them all that
much.
It is, as the gentleman from Alabama
tion concerning transcripts of closed
Mr. FASCELL If the gentleman will
says, no big deal, but we think it will be
meetings, the Committee on Government
yield further, I agree, of course, that we
helpful in carrying out the spirit and
Operations' bill requires that a complete
have sunshine in the Congress. We can-
thrust of this act. I hope this simple
transcript or electronic recording which
amendment can be adopted.
is adequate to record the proceedings
not hurt the executive agencies. We are
shall be made of each meeting or portion
trying to help them.
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
of a meeting, closed to the public, except
I was very much impressed with the
rise In opposition to the amendment of-
for a meeting, or portion of a meeting,
thorough consideration given by the
fered by Mr. FASCELL which will require a
gentleman's subcommittee. I know that
reason be given for the deletion of cer-
closed to the public pursuant to para-
graph (10) of subsection (c).
there were a lot of amendments con-
tain exempted information or a sum-
mary of the deleted information.
The committee considered the diffi-
sidered. But the committee went through
culties incident to the review of the tran-
them all and carefully decided which
First let me state I am opposed to the
ones they would support.
unique requirement of a verbatim tran-
script of the closed meetings required by
script for reasons which have and will be
the original provisions of the bill. The
Mr. FLOWERS. I thank the gentleman
elaborated on. There are many adverse
bill would require that each deletion-
for his comments.
consequences that will result if this
this is under the Committee on Govern-
Madam Chairman, I yield back the
amendment is passed but I request my
ment Operations' version-authorized by
remainder of my time.
colleagues to reflect on only two very
an exception in the section would be
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. TO THE
clear and simple ones.
made by recorded vote of the agency
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE
There are only 10 narrowly defined
taken subsequent to the meeting.
OFFERED BY MR. FLOWERS
exemptions which can be asserted to
It was pointed out that this would re-
Mr. FASCELL Madam Chairman, I
withhold information from the public.
quire considerable expenditure of time of
offer an amendment to the amendment
These 10 are overwhelmingly supported
officials of the Agency, and this would
in the nature of a substitute.
by Members of both bodies of this Con-
be cumbersome and time consuming. We
The Clerk read as follows:
gress. Yet, this amendment says there
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-
H 7887
are 10 categories of information that
record their presence. The call will be
ous. It will not reveal any confidential
should be protected, but not protected
taken by electronic device.
information.
completely. Let us delete it from the pub-
The call was taken by electronic de-
Madam Chairman, I support the
lic record, then let us sanction "official
vice, and the following Members failed
amendment offered by the gentleman
leaks" by giving the reason or a summary
to respond:
from Florida as a very reasonable and
of the information. This clearly is con-
[Roll No. 559]
worthwhile compromise.
tradictory and unacceptable.
Andrews, N.C.
Hansen
Rees
The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gen-
The other point I would like to submit
Ashbrook
Harrington
Riegle
tleman has expired.
AuCoin
Hebert
Roe
for your consideration is the primary
Badillo
Heckler, Mass.
Rostenkowski
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman, I
purpose of this legislation. That is, to
Boggs
Heinz
Ruppe
move to strike the requisite number of
allow every citizen interested in the
Brown, Mich.
Helstoski
Santini
words, and I rise in opposition to the
work of his Government access to pro-
Cederberg
Hinshaw
Scheuer
amendment.
Chisholm
Holland
Shuster
ceedings conducted by various agencies.
Clay
Jarman
Sisk
(Mr. FLOWERS asked and was given
Again, I remind you of the 10 narrowly
Cochran
Jones, Ala.
Stanton,
permission to revise and extend his re-
defined exemptions. However, if this
Collins, III.
Jones, N.C.
James V.
marks.)
amendment is passed, there will be hints,
Conyers
Jones, Tenn.
Steed
Dellums
Karth
Steiger, Ariz.
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman, I
clues, and even summaries of informa-
Dent
Kemp
Stephens
do not think that this amendment and
tion which should not be made public by
Derrick
Landrum
Stratton
the subject matter we are dealing with
the 10 exemptions. These clues and sum-
Derwinski
Litton
Stuckey
here are as important as some of the
Diggs
McDade
Sullivan
maries will not aid or benefit the vast
Dingell
Mathis
Symington
other things we are going to deal with
majority of the American public. They
Downing, Va.
Murphy, N.Y.
Udall
later on, on which there will be amend-
will, however, greatly benefit select and
Drinan
Nowak
Vander Veen
ments to this legislation. However, I am
sophisticated groups. This amendment
Esch
O'Hara
Wampler
Evans, Colo.
O'Neill
Wiggins
constrained to oppose it.
will provide information to these groups
Evans, Ind.
Patterson,
Wilson,
The Committee on the Judiciary struck
which, because of their expertise, can
Evins, Tenn.
Calif.
Wilson, Tex.
this provision, because it was our con-
utilize in financial and market specula-
Fascell
Peyser
Young, Alaska
sidered judgment that it did amount to
Fountain
Pike
Zeferetti
tion. This clearly discriminates against
Fraser
Railsback
an onerous task to foster off on these
the general public. This amendment
Gaydos
Randall
agencies, in addition to all of the other
could be titled "Aid and Benefit to Fi-
Accordingly the Committee rose; and
things we are putting into this legisla-
nancial Speculators."
tion, if we require them to offer an ex-
There are many other serious and
the Speaker having resumed the Chair,
Mrs. BURKE of California, Chairman of
planation of the reasons for the deletion
complex consequences that will result
the Committee of the Whole House on
and the statutory authority. This could
if this amendment is passed but I only
ask consideration of these two very sim-
the State of the Union, reported that
in effect amount to about the same thing
ple and clear results as I feel they are
that committee, having had under con-
as a summary; thereby giving rise to
sideration the bill H.R. 11656, and find-
placing in the transcript the same in-
more than sufficient to defeat this
formation that would be the reason for
amendment.
ing itself without a quorum, she had di-
Mr. MOORHEAD of California.
rected the Members to record their pres-
their deleting the subject matter in the
Madam Chairman, will the gentleman
ence by electronic device, whereupon 352
first place.
The full transcript will still be avail-
Members recorded their presence, a quo-
yield?
rum, and she submitted herewith the
able for the judge, and we do not think
Mr. HORTON. Iyield to the gentleman
names of the absentees to be spread upon
there is any real reason for requiring the
from California.
additional effort, the additional work on
Mr. MOORHEAD of California.
the journal.
Madam Chairman, I am also opposed to
The Committee resumed its sitting.
the part of rather high level people in
The CHAIRMAN. The gentleman from
these agencies and departments. There-
this amendment. People in the agencies
handling delicate matters, such as those
Texas (Mr. BROOKS) is recognized for 5
fore, we did not think this provision was
connected with the market and many
minutes.
necessary.
Madam Chairman, I urge my col-
other things, have told us if they have
(Mr. BROOKS asked and was given
leagues to vote "no" on this amendment.
to give an explanation, that people who
permission to revise and extend his
Mrs. FENWICK. Madam Chairman,
are wise in the matters concerned will be
remarks.)
able to tell from the explanation really
Mr. BROOKS. Madam Chairman, I
will the gentleman yield?
Mr. FLOWERS. I yield to the gentle-
what was in the part that was deleted
rise in support of the amendment offered
woman from New Jersey.
and we fail to serve the purpose if we
by the gentleman from Florida (Mr.
Mrs. FENWICK. I thank the gentle-
require that to be included. In many in-
FASCELL) to the amendment in the nature
stances, it will work great harm to the
of a substitute offerea by the gentleman
man for yielding.
I would like to ask a question. My
country.
from Alabama (Mr. FLOWERS) which
trouble with. this amendment is the
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
amendment would require that the agen-
definition of the word "explanation."
thank the gentleman.
cies seeking to cut out language or delete
Perhaps I should address this question
I am opposed to the amendment and
it in one form or another, to give a writ-
to our colleague, the gentleman from
urge my colleagues to oppose it.
ten explanation on why they cut it out
Florida.
Mr. FASCELL. Madam Chairman, I
and any statutes that are said to give
make the point of order that a quorum
them that authority.
Mr. FASCELL. Madam Chairman, will
Is not present.
The amendment is simple logic. If
the gentleman yield?
The CHAIRMAN. Evidently a quorum
material is deleted from a transcript,
Mr. FLOWERS. I yield to the gentle-
is not present.
some indication of the reason and the
man from Florida.
The Chair announces that pursuant to
authority for the deletion should be
Mr. FASCELL I thank you for yield-
clause 2, rule XXIII, she will vacate pro-
stated and can be stated without any
ing.
ceedings under the call when a quorum
difficulty.
I will be delighted to answer the ques-
of the Committee appears.
A blank space is going to be meaning-
tion of the gentlewoman. The explana-
Members will record their presence by
less and confusing. It will cause more
tion that is required would be that what-
electronic device.
problems for the agency than a state-
ever the deletion is, it is within the
The call was taken by electronic device.
ment of the authority for the deletion
statutory exemption, for example, be-
The CHAIRMAN. A quorum of the
would. The amendment is a compromise
cause the testimony herein deleted
Committee of the Whole has not
from the original language. The original
might adversely affect the national se-
appeared.
bill provided for a summary or a para-
curity, or the national economy, or affect
The Chair announces that a regular
phrase of that material. The Committee
the rights or life of an individual, and
quorum call will not commence.
on Government Operations reduced that
it requires a citation of the statute of
Members who have not already re-
to a simple citation of the reason for
that authority. It does not require a sum-
sponded under the noticed quorum call
the deletion. The citation of the author-
mary or a paraphrasing of the testimony.
will have a minimum of 15 minutes to
ity for the deletion certainly is not oner-
Mrs. FENWICK. If the gentleman will
H 7888
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
July 28, 1976
yield further, am I correct in saying,
handled*this bill for the Judiciary Sub-
Holtzman
Mosher
Schroeder
then, that the explanation could be as
committee indicate that they had this
Howard
Moss
Seiberling
Howe
Mottl
Sharp
brief as, "national security," "the na-
matter before them and that they decided
Hughes
Murphy, III.
Shipley
tional economy," "the welfare of the
to remove this language because for all
Jacobs
Murphy, N.Y.
Simon
masses," or something of that kind, cit-
practical purposes it made the Freedom
Jeffords
Neal
Smith, Iowa
Jenrette
Nedzi
Solarz
ing subsection (c)
of Information Act deletions or exemp-
Johnson, Calif.
Nix
Spellman
Mr. FASCELL If the gentleman will
tions moot. They are not effective if this
Johnson, Colo.
Nolan
Staggers
yield further, the gentlewoman from
amendment goes through.
Jordan
Nowak
Stanton,
Kastenmeler
Oberstar
James V.
New Jersey is absolutely correct. The
For all practical purposes, if there is
Kelly
Obey
Stark
only thing one would have to add to it
a reason for closing a meeting and one
Keys
Ottinger
Steelman
is the statutory citation.
has to explain the reason for those dele-
Koch
Passman
Stokes
Krebs
Patterson,
Studds
Mrs. FENWICK. Subsection (c)
tions when the report is made or when
Lehman
Calif.
Symms
Mr. FASCELL. That is right.
there is a deletion or when a summary
Lent
Paul
Thompson
Mr. SEIBERLING. Madam Chairman,
is made available to the public, that is
Levitas
Pepper
Thornton
Lloyd. Callf
Perkins
Traxler
I move to strike the last word.
going to mean to those sophisticates who
Long. Le.
Pickle
Tsongas
If the gentlewoman from New Jersey
know what is involved in that meeting.
Long, Md.
Pike
Udall
would look at the supplemental views of
exactly what occurred.
McHugh
Pressler
Uliman
McKay
Van Deerlin
six of the members of the Committee on
I think this is a devastating amend-
Preyer
Madden
Price
Vander Veen
the Judiciary, including this member-
ment as far as the ability of these agen-
Maguire
Rangel
Vanik
and there are four printings of the sup-
cies to delete material. On the one hand
Mann
Reuss
Vigorito
Mathis
Richmond
Waxman
plemental views, but they are all basical-
we say under the Freedom of Information
Matsunaga
Rinaldo
Weaver
ly identical-she would find that we make
Act they can exempt or delete material
Meeds
Rodino
Whalen
a very clear distinction between sum-
before making it public and then on the
Melcher
Rogers
White
Wirth
maries, which is what was deleted by the
other hand we turn around and say if
Metcalfe
Roncalio
Meyner
Rooney
Wolff
Committee on Government Operations,
they do delete when they make the tran-
Mezvinsky
Rose
Wright
and explanations and citations of au-
script public then they have to give the
Mikva
Rosenthal
Wydler
thority, which is what was deleted by the
reasons for it, SO that is tantamount to
Miller, Calif.
Roush
Wylle
Mineta
Roybal
Yates
Committee on the Judiciary-in my view
removing whatever exemptions they
Minish
Russo
Yatron
a mistaken deletion.
might have.
Mink
Ryan
Young, Fla.
I strongly support the Fascell amend-
Some of these regulatory agencies have
Mitchell, Md.
St Germain
Young. Ga.
Moakley
Santini
Young, Tex.
ment and regret that the majority of
some very sensitive matters that relate
Moffett
Sarbanes
my colleagues on the Judiciary Commit-
to economics and national security and
Moorhead, Pa.
Scheuer
tee took the step of deleting it.
financial matters that ought not be re-
NOES-168
Mr. KINDNESS. Madam Chairman, I
leased.
Abdnor
Guyer
Murtha
move to strike the last word.
So I hope my colleagues will oppose
Anderson, Ill.
Hagedorn
Myers, Ind.
Madam Chairman, I rise in strong op-
this amendment and vote it down.
Andrews,
Hammer-
Myers, Pa.
N. Dak.
schmidt
Natcher
position to the amendment and I will
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
Archer
Harsha
Nichols
yield in a moment to my colleague, the
the amendment offered by the gentleman
Armstrong
Hébert
O'Brien
gentleman from New York (Mr. HORTON),
from Florida (Mr. FASCELL) to the
Ashley
Hefner
Patten, N.J.
Beard, Tenn.
Henderson
Pattison, N.Y.
who will also fill Members in on the rea-
amendment in the nature of a substi-
Bell
Hightower
Pettis
sons for the opposition.
tute offered by the gentleman from Ala-
Bevill
Hillis
Poage
It is important to learn what we are
bama (Mr. FLOWERS).
Biester
Holt
Pritchard
doing is gutting the exemptions to the
Boggs
Horton
Quie
RECORDED VOTE
Bowen
Hubbard
Quillen
bill, in at least some cases. The exemp-
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I de-
Breaux
Hungate
Rallsback
tions to the bill relating to the national
Breckinridge
Hutchinson
Randall
mand a recorded vote.
Broomfield
security and trade secrets and matters
Hyde
Rees
A recorded vote was ordered.
Brown, Mich.
Ichord
Regula
of that sort are in there for a good pur-
The vote was taken by electronic de-
Brown, Ohio
Jarman
Rhodes
pose and they are supported by the over-
Broyhill
Johnson, Pa.
Risenhoover
vice, and there were-ayes 232, noes 168,
whelming majority I am sure of the
Buchanan
Jones, N.C.
Roberts
not voting 32, as follows:
Burgener
Jones, Okla.
Robinson
Members of the House and certainly of
Burke, Fla.
Kasten
Rousselot
the other body.
[Roll No. 560}
Burleson, Tex.
Kazen
Runnels
We recognize the need for some mate-
AYES-232
Butler
Kemp
Ruppe
Byron
Ketchum
Sarasin
rials not being disclosed publicly. This
Abzug
Carney
Evins, Tenn.
Carter
Kindness
Satterfield
amendment in the case, for example, of
Adams
Card
Fary
Cederberg
Krueger
Schneebell
Addabbo
Chappell
Fascell
the Federal Reserve Board or the Securi-
Clausen,
LaFaice
Schulze
Alexander
Chisholm
Fenwick
Don H.
Lagomarsino
Sebeltus
ties and Exchange Commission, if it re-
Allen
Clancy
Fisher
Clawson, Del
Latta
Shriver
quired disclosure in the way this amend-
Ambro
Cleveland
Fithian
Cochran
Lloyd, Tenn.
Shuster
Anderson,
Cohen
Flood
ment proposes, would give all the infor-
Collins, Tex.
Lott
Sikes
Calif,
Collins, III.
Florio
Conable
Lujan
Skubitz
mation that is necessary to a highly so-
Andrews, N.C.
Cente
Foley
Conlan
Lundine
Slack
phisticated group of people who follow
Annunzio
Conyers
Ford, Mich
Coughlin
McClory
Smith, Nebr.
Aspin
Corman
what is going on in the SEC or the FRB.
Ford, Tenn.
Daniel, Dan
McCloskey
Snyder
Badillo
Cornell
Fraser
Daniel, R. W.
MoCollister
Spence
So in effect this amendment would re-
Bafalls
Cotter
Fuqus
Danielson
McCormack
Stanton,
move part of the effectiveness of those
Baldus
Crane
Gaydos
Devine
McDade
J. William
Baucus
D'Amours
Ginimo
exemptions. I would urge a "no" vote
Dickinson
McDonald
Steed
Bauman
Daniels, N.J.
Gibbons
Downing, Va.
McEwen
Steiger, Wis.
overwhelmingly against this amendment.
Beard, R.I.
Davis
Gilman
Duncan, Tenn.
McFall
Stephens
I yield now to the gentleman from
Bedell
dela Garza
Gonzalez
Edwards, Ala.
McKinney
Talcott
New York (Mr. HORTON).
Bennett
Delaney
Grassley
English
Madigan
Taylor, Mo.
Bergland
Dellums
Green
Erlenborn
Mahon
Taylor, N.C.
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
Biaggi
Derrick
Haley
Eshleman
Martin
Teague
thank the gentleman for yielding.
Bingham
Derwinski
Hall, III.
Findley
Mazzoli
Thone
Blanchard
Diggs
Hall, Tex.
I have already addressed myself to this
Fish
Michel
Treen
Blouin
Dingell
Hamilton
Flowers
Milford
Vander Jagt
amendment and expressed my opposition
Boland
Dodd
Hanley
Flynt
Miller, Ohio
Waggonner
to it, but I would like to point out to the
Bolling
Downey, N.Y.
Hannaford
Forsythe
Mills
Walsh
Bonker
Drinan
Harkin
Members that the amendment that has
Frenzel
Mitchell, N.Y.
Whitehurst
Brademas
Duncan, Oreg.
Harrington
Frey
Mollohan
Whitten
been offered is to restore language that
Brinkley
du Pout
Harris
Ginn
Montgomery
Wilson, Bob
was in the Government Operations Com-
Brodhead
Early
Hawkins
Goldwater
Moore
Winn
Brooks
Eckhardt
mittee bill. Subsequent to the action by
Hayes, Ind.
Goodling
Moorhead,
Young, Alaska
Brown, Calif.
Edgar
Hays, Ohio
Gradison
Calif.
Zablocki
the Government Operations Committee
Burke, Calif.
Edwards, Calif.
Hechier, W. Va.
Gude
Morgan
the bill was referred sequentially to the
Burke, Mass.
Ellberg
Heckler, Mass.
NOT VOTING-32
Judiciary Committee. We just heard the
Burlison, Mo.
Emery
Heinx
Burton, John
Evens, Colo.
Hicks
Ashbrook
Clay
Esch
chairman of the subcommittee that
Burton, Phillip
Evans, Ind.
Holland
AnCoin
Deat
Fountain
CONGRESSIONAL
7889
Hansen
O'Hara
Stuckey
the joint conduct or disposition of offi-
I would like to direct the attention of
Helstocki
O'Neill
Sullivan
Hinshaw
Peyser
Symington
cial agency business." The House Gov-
the House to the definition of the term
Jones, Ala.
Riegle
Wampler
ernment Operations Committee bill omits
"meeting," which we seek to change in
Jones, Tenn.
Roe
Wiggins
the word "official" from the definition
this amendment.
Earth
Rostenkowski
Wilson, C. H.
Landrum
Sisk
Wilson, Tex.
of meetings. This omission immediately
The term "meeting" means, and I
Leggett
Steiger, Ariz.
Zeferetti
broadens the range of member conver-
quote:
Litton
Stratton
sations which must be covered by the
An assembly or simultaneous communica-
The Clerk announced the following
procedural requirements of the bill. The
tion concerning the joint conduct or disposi-
report on the bill specifically states that
tion of agency business by two or more, but
pairs:
On this vote:
"the conduct of agency business is in-
at Jeast the number of individual agency
Mr. O'Neill for, with Mr. Landrum against.
tended to include not just the formal
members required to take action on behalf of
decisionmaking or voting, but all dis-
the agency,
Mr. Dent for, with Mr. Steiger of Arizona
against.
cussion relating to the business of an
Madam Chairman, what that pre-
Mr. Helstoski for, with Mr. Wainpler
agency." Then, the House Judiciary
cludes is the casual meeting of people at
against.
Committee set forth a third definition
breakfast or at lunch or elsewhere to
Mr. Zeferetti for, with Mr. Wiggins against.
of meeting which in turn differs from
discuss any action which may later be
Mr. Rostenkowski for, with Mr. Fountain
the wording recommended by the Judi-
taken at the formal meeting of the board.
against.
ciary Subcommittee which considered
If two members, for example, of the
Mr. Symington for, with Mr. Ashbrook
the bill.
Securities and Exchange Commission,
against.
Mr. Charles H. Wilson of California for,
It is not easy to strike a balance be-
who, by their rules, are impowered to
with Mr. Hansen against.
tween the various public interests to be
take action, could meet at breakfast to
served, but we have a special respon-
discuss, even in the most casual way,
Messrs. DERWINSKI, BAUMAN,
sibility to enact responsible legislation
what they might later take up in a for-
SYMMS, and SHIPLEY changed their
which will promote greater openness in
mal meeting with the other members,
vote from "no" to "aye."
Government at the same time that it is
they would be required to be subject to a
Mr. RANDALL changed his vote from
not unnecessarily burdensome and does
civil or other penalty by holding that
"aye" to "no."
not unnecessarily hinder public officials
meeting without holding it in abeyance
So the amendment to the amendment
from carrying out their responsibilities.
for 1 day to announce that they were
in the nature of a substitute was agreed
My amendment would restore the lan-
going to have a closed meeting. They
to.
guage adopted by the Subcommittee on
would be subject to penalty because they
The result of the vote was announced
Administrative Law and Governmental
have no transcription of that meeting.
as above recorded.
Relations by a 5-to-0 vote and would
Madam Chairman, this bill in front of
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. HORTON TO THE
make it clear that a meeting, within the
us today purports to bring to the Federal
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTI-
terms of this bill, should be limited to a
Government the same kind of sunshine
TOTE OFFERED BY MR. FLOWERS
"gathering" of agency members in a sin-
requirements which have been widely
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
gle physical location for the purpose of
adopted by most of the enlightened
offer an amendment to the amendment
conducting agency business.
States of this Union, including Cali-
in the nature of a substitute.
I appeal to my colleagues to consider
fornia, with California's Brown Act,
The Clerk read as follows:
this amendment on its merits and urge
which requires public meetings.
Amendment offered by Mr. HORTON to the
its adoption.
The California law, however, makes no
amendment in the nature of a substitute
Mr. BROOKS. Madam Chairman, I
requirement that two State legislators
offered by Mr. FLOWERS: Page 3, strike lines
rise in opposition to the amendment.
who sit on the same committee to act on
3 through 9 and insert:
The definition in the bill is designed
committee business could not discuss
"(2) the term 'meeting' means a gathering
to jointly conduct or dispose of agency busi-
to cover any situation in which the num-
that business if they met casually.
ness by two or more, but at least the num-
ber of agency members required to take
Take the subcommittee which pre-
ber of individual agency members required
action do, in fact, discuss or conduct
sented this bill and whose chairman is
to take action on behalf of the agency, but
agency business. The amendment of the
the gentlewoman from New York (Ms.
does not include gatherings required or per-
gentleman from New York would require
ABZUG) and on which we have seven
mitted by subsection (d); and"
that the members physically gather to-
members. If four of us should meet here
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, this
gether with the express intention of con-
in the well of the House to discuss how
amendment would bring the definition of
ducting business.
we could get the rest of the subcommit-
meeting in line with the realities of life.
It is easy to see how an agency could
tee to go up to a room to get a quorum,
As now written, the definition would
avoid the requirements of the bill if the
as we have done, so as to pass a bill, that
mean that telephone conversations and
amendment were adopted. The agency
meeting would be illegal because we had
gatherings of agency members at social
members would simply get on the tele-
not held a public meeting in advance
events, on a golf course or elsewhere
phone in a series of calls, or in a confer-
voting to meet in private.
would be covered by the act if any men-
ence call, and their discussions or any
All we do in this bill is to seek to retain
tion of agency business was made in in-
results from them, would not have to be
good balance between good government
formal conversation. It makes the deci-
made public.
and open government. We are reacting
sion as to whether there will be a meet-
The amendment also requires that the
as we did in the Freedom of Information
ing dependent on what occurs at the
gathering be for the express purpose of
Act, and others, because of excessive
meeting. The impracticability of subject-
conducting business. So all they have to
abuses of secrecy by the executive
ing such a broadly defined gathering to
do is plan a nice social evening-say a
branch. And obviously the attention of
prior public announcement, to the open
birthday celebration for one of the mem-
the public that has been focused on that
meeting requirement, to the requirement
bers-and if they happen to talk busi-
problem will not bring people into the
for a formal vote for meeting closing and
ness over the drinks and dinner, well,
Government and these commissions in
to the verbatim transcript requirement
that just would not be covered.
the future. I would suggest the question
on only have the effect of restricting
What we want to reach in this bill are
to the Members that if any one of us
the right of assembly and free speech of
the deliberations of agency members re-
were asked to serve on such a commis-
public efficials without any correspond-
lating to agency business. The definition
sion in the future, would we want to sub-
Inc benefit to the public at large. This
in the bill accomplishes this. The amend-
ject ourselves to that role if we could not
in a patently ridiculous requirement, be-
ment of the gentleman from New York
casually discuss a matter that we were
st does not limit the application of
would open a huge loophole and I urge
ultimately going to act upon with one of
the net to meetings or gatherings called
its defeat.
our colleagues? That is the effect of the
for the purpose of agency business.
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Madam Chairman,
bill as presently written.
The Senate-passed bill defines a meet-
I rise in support of the amendment.
Madam Chairwoman, I submit that
deliberations of at least the
(Mr. McCLOSKEY asked and was
the amendment should be adopted so as
of individual agency members
given permission to revise and extend his
to strike a proper balance between open
to take action on behalf of the
remarks.)
meetings and the conduct of good gov-
such deliberations concern
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Madam Chairman,
ernment.
H 7890
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
July 28, 197
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I move
Smith, Nebr.
Taylor, Mo.
Whitehurst
mustückey for, with Mr. Rostenkows
to strike the requisite number of words
Snyder
Taylor, N.C.
Whitten
Spence
and I rise in opposition to the amend-
Teague
Wilson, Bob
Stanton,
Mountain for, with Mr. Staggers agains
Thone
Winn
ment offered by the gentleman from New
J. William
Treen
Wright
Mansen for, with Mr. Rosenthal agains
York (Mr. HORTON) to the amendment in
Steed
Van Deerlin
Wydler
of Arizona for, with Mr. Syn
the nature of a substitute offered by the
Steiger, Wis.
Vander Jagt
Wylie
lawagainst.
Stephens
Waggonner
Young, Alaska
Wampler for, with Mr. Charles
gentleman from Alabama (Mr. FLOW-
Symms
Walsh
Young, Tex.
California against.
ERS)
Talcott
White
Miggins for, with Mr. Sisk against.
(Ms. ABZUG asked and was given per-
NOES-180
mission to revise and extend her
She amendment to the amendmer
Abzug
Fascell
Nix
remarks.)
Addabbo
Fisher
Nolan
mature of a substitute was agree
Alexander
Fithian
Nowak
[Ms. ABZUG addressed the Committee.
Allen
Flood
Oberstar
Thresult of the vote was announce
Her remarks will appear hereafter in the
Ambro
Florio
Obey
Anderson,
Flowers
Extensions of Remarks.]
Patterson,
recorded.
Calif.
Ford, Mich.
Calif.
OFFIRED BY MR. HORTON TO TH
Annunzio
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
Ford, Tenn.
Pattison, N.Y.
IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITU
Aspin
Fraser
Perkins
the amendment offered by the gentle-
Badillo
BY MR. FLOWERS
Fuqua
Pickle
man from New York (Mr. HORTON), to
Bafalis
Gibbons
Pike
HORTON. Madam Chairman,
the amendment in the nature of a sub-
Baldus
Gilman
Pressler
amendment to the amendmer
Baucus
Green
Preyer
stitute offered by the gentleman from
Beard, R.I.
Gude
Price
nature of a substitute.
Alabama (Mr. FLOWERS)
Bennett
Hall, III.
Pritchard
Clerk read as follows:
The question was taken; and the
Bevill
Hamilton
Randall
Biaggi
Amiment ofered by Mr. HORTON to t1
Hannaford
Rangel
Chairman announced that the noes ap-
Bingham
Harkin
Reuss
in the nature of a substitu
peared to have it.
Blanchard
Harrington
Richmond
by Mr. FLOWERS: On page 9, line :
Blouin
Hawkins
Rinaldo
RECORDED VOTE
page 11, line 2, strike subsectic
Boland
Hayes, Ind.
Risenhoover
and insert the following:
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
Bolling
Hays, Ohio
Rodino
For every meeting closed pursuar
demand a recorded vote.
Bonker
Hechler, W. Va.
Rogers
Brademas
Heinz
Roncalio
(I) through (10) of subse
A recorded vote was ordered.
Breckinridge
Hicks
Rooney
the General Counsel or chief leg
The vote was taken by electronic de-
Brooks
Holtzman
Rose
the agency shall publicly certi:
Brown, Calif.
Howard
Roybal
his ophion, the meeting may 1
vice, and there were-ayes 204, noes 180,
Burke, Calif.
Howe
Russo
the public and shall state the rele
not voting 48, as follows:
Burke, Mass.
Hughes
St Germain
remptive provision. A copy of suc
Burlison, Mo.
Hungate
Santini
[Roll No. 561]
Burton, John
Johnson, Calif.
Sarbanes
together with a statement fro:
AYES-204
Burton, Phillip
Jordan
Scheuer
esiding offcer of the meeting settir
Carney
Kastenmeier
Schroeder
date, time and place of the mee
Abdnor
Foley
McCollister
Carr
Keys
Seiberling
persons present, the generic subject
Adams
Forsythe
McCormack
Chisholm
Koch
Shipley
Anderson, Ill.
the discussion at the meeting, an
Frenzel
McDade
Clancy
Lehman
Simon
Andrews, N.C.
Frey
McDonald
taker, shall be incorporated int
Cleveland
Long, La.
Solarz
Andrews,
Gaydos
McEwen
Collins, III.
McFall
Spellman
retainet by the agency."
N. Dak.
Ginn
McKay
Conte
McHugh
Stanton,
13, Ihes 2 and 3, strike "a trar
Archer
Goldwater
McKinney
Conyers
Matsunaga
James V.
electronic recording" and inse:
Armstrong
Gonzalez
Madden
Corman
Mazzoli
Stark
Ashbrook
Goodling
Madigan
Cornell
Meeds
Steelman
Bauman
Gradison
13, The 10, strike "transcript
Mahon
Cotter
Metcalfe
Stokes
Beard, Tenn.
Grassley
Mann
recording" and insert "minutes
D'Amours
Meyner
Studds
Bedell
Guyer
Martin
Daniels, N.J.
Mezvinsky
Thompson
15, Tines 1 and 2, strike "trar
Bell
Hagedorn
Mathis
Danielson
Mikva
Thornton
or electronic recordings" and inse:
Bergland
Haley
Melcher
Davis
Miller, Calif.
Traxler
Biester
Hall, Tex.
Michel
Delaney
Mineta
Tsongas
Dipage 15, lines 4 and 5, strike "trar
Boggs
Hammer-
Milford
Dellums
Minish
Udall
Bowen
schmidt
Miller, Ohio
and electronic recordings" and ir
Diggs
Mink
Vander Veen
Breaux
Hanley
Mills
inutes"
Dodd
Mitchell, Md.
Vanik
Brinkley
Harris
Mitchell, N.Y.
Downey, N.Y.
Moakley
Vigorito
age 15, Ihe 13, strike "transcripts
Broomfield
Harsha
Mollohan
Drinan
Moffett
Waxman
recordings" and insert "minutes
Brown, Mich.
Hébert
Montgomery
Duncan, Oreg.
Morgan
Weaver
Broyhill
Heckler, Mass.
Moore
Early
Moss
Whalen
HORTON. Madam Chairmar
Buchanan
Hefner
Moorhead,
Edgar
Mottl
Wilson, Tex.
mendmendment would delete the verba
Burgener
Henderson
Calif.
Edwards, Calif.
Murphy, Ill.
Wolff
Burke, Fla.
Hightower
Mosher
tanscript requirement of the bi
Eilberg
Murphy, N.Y.
Yates
Burleson, Tex.
Hillis
Murtha
Emery
Neal
Yatron
eplace it with $ requirement tha
Butler
Holland
Myers, Ind.
English
Nedzi
Young, Fla.
be kert of each closed meetin
Byron
Holt
Myers, Pa.
Fary
Nichols
Zablocki
Carter
Horton
Natcher
etained by the Agency.
Cederberg
Hubbard
O'Brien
NOT VOTING-48
bill nov requires that a verbatir
Chappell
Hutchinson
Passman
Ashley
Jones, Ala.
Rostenkowski
marting or transcript be made of ever
Clausen,
Hyde
Patten, N.J.
AuCoin
Paul
Jones, Tenn.
Sharp
which is legally closed unde
Don H.
Ichord
Brodhead
Karth
Sisk
Clawson, Del
Jacobs
Pepper
exemptions contained in th
Brown, Ohio
Krueger
Staggers
Cochran
Jarman
Pettis
Clay
Landrum
Steiger, Ariz.
Cohen
Jeffords
Poage
Dent
Leggett
Stratton
presently writter, this is the mos
Collins, Tex.
Johnson, Colo.
Quie
Dingell
Litton
Stuckey
Conable
Johnson, Pa.
Quillen
and contractory provision 1:
Eckhardt
Maguire
Sullivan
Conlan
Jones, N.C.
Railsback
Esch
Moorhead, Pa.
Symington
III. The bill seels on the one han
Coughlin
Jones, Okla.
Rees
Evins, Tenn.
O'Hara
Ullman
against the potential havoc 0
Crane
Kasten
Regula
Fountain
O'Neill
Wampler
Daniel, Dan
Kazen
Rhodes
undericted public exposure of agenc
Giaimo
Ottinger
Wiggins
Daniel, R. W.
Kelly
Roberts
Hansen
Peyser
Wilson, C. H.
rations by providing 10 exemp
de la Garza
Kemp
Robinson
Helstoski
Riegle
Wirth
from the requirement for oper
Derrick
Ketchum
Roush
Hinshaw
Roe
Young, Ga.
but on the other hand it ef
Derwinski
Kindness
Rousselot
Jenrette
Rosenthal
Zeferetti
Devine
Krebs
Runnels
Security destroys the protection pro
Dickinson
LaFalce
Ruppe
The Clerk announced the following
by closed meeings by requiring
Downing, Va.
Lagomarsino
Ryan
pairs:
transcript which could late
Duncan, Tenn.
Latta
Sarasin
du Pont
Lent
Satterfield
On this vote:
public disclosure.
Edwards, Ala.
Levitas
Schneebeli
Mr. Jones of Tennessee for, with Mr. O'Neill
provisim defeats the very pur
Erlenborn
Lloyd, Calif.
Schulze
against.
the Fredom If Information Ac
Eshleman
Lloyd, Tenn.
Sebelius
Evans, Colo.
Long, Md.
Shriver
Mr. Jenrette for, with Mr. Dent against.
the Federal Privacy Act, which
Evans, Ind.
Lott
Shuster
Mr. Landrum for, with Mr. Zeferetti
recognize the need to keep cer
Fenwick
Lujan
Sikes
against.
ategories of infirmation from pre-
Findley
Lundine
Skubitz
Fish
McClory
Slack
Mr. Evins of Tennessee for, with Mr. Moor-
or danaging publication.
Flynt
McCloskey
Smith, Iowa
head of Pennsylvania against.
This agency meeings held to heai
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD HOUSE
H 7891
preliminary staff reports on SEC stock
(By unanimous consent, Mr. HORTON
court later ruled that the agency did not
fraud investigations, Federal Reserve
was allowed to proceed for 2 additional
have a proper basis for this closing, the
Board bank examination activities, FTC
minutes.)
court would not release the small por-
antitrust investigations, Civil Service
Mr. PEPPER. Madam Chairman, will
tion of the transcript that contained a
Commission disciplinary actions, and a
the gentleman yield?
reference to some irrelevant personal
host of similarly sensitive situations
Mr. HORTON. I yield to the gentleman
proclivity of an individual who was the
would be subject to publication of edited
from Florida.
subject of the discussion, since that
verbatim transcripts. No seasoned re-
Mr. PEPPER. I thank the gentleman
would be protected by the bill's personal
porter or counsel for an affected party
for yielding.
privacy exemption.
would have much trouble piecing to-
Does the amendment offered by the
As for the fact that few, if any States
gether what an agency was up to if this
able gentleman cover anything other
require transcripts, it should be noted
procedure is required in the bill.
than the Federal Reserve Board?
that 24 of the 49 State open meeting
Proponents of the sunshine legislation
Mr. HORTON. It covers all agencies.
statutes provide criminal penalties for
repeatedly state that the bill's transcript
What it does is to remove the restrictions
violations, 2 more impose civil penal-
requirements are essential to provide
of a verbatim transcript, and it also
ties, and 19 render the substantive ac-
effective judicial review of agency action
covers the Federal Reserve Board.
tion taken at an unlawfully closed meet-
in closed meetings. It is my belief, which
Mr. PEPPER. If the gentleman will
ing void or voidable. None of these sanc-
is shared by others, that this is not the
yield further, does the able gentleman
tions is available under this bill, leav-
case. The discovery proceedings avail-
propose to offer another amendment
ing the possible disclosure of the tran-
able to the U.S. district courts do not de-
limiting his amendment only to the Fed-
script as the only remedy for an im-
pend upon the availability of verbatim
eral Reserve Board?
proper closing.
transcripts or electronic recordings of
Mr. HORTON. I would not offer that
On the question of cost, given the fact
agency meetings. Deputy Attorney Gen-
if this carries, and I would hope that
that most meetings are supposed to be
eral Harold R. Tyler, Jr., a former Fed-
this amendment carries because it would
open under this legislation, there should
eral judge (D.C., S.D., N.Y.), described
cover the Federal Reserve Board, the
not be all that many transcripts to keep.
the transcript provision in testimony
SEC, and any other agency as defined in
The Congressional Budget Office, both
before the House Government Opera-
this title.
House committees that have considered
tions Committee as "undoubtedly the
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I move
the bill, and the Senate Government Op-
most wasteful provision in the bill." He
to strike the last word.
erations Committee have all estimated
noted that-
(Ms. ABZUG asked and was given per-
that the average annual cost of this leg-
A transcript is not needed to secure ju-
mission to revise and extend her re-
islation will be less than $3,000 for each
dicial review of an improper closure, any
marks.)
covered agency.
more than it is needed to secure judicial re-
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I rise
This améndment would remove the
view of other improper agency action. Any
court can require the agency to supply an
in opposition to the amendment, which
only enforcement remedy contained in
has been rejected by both subcommit-
the open meeting provisions of the sun-
affidavit, under oath, as to what was dis-
tees and both full committees that have
shine bill, and I urge its rejection.
cussed.
considered this legislation. H.R. 11656
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Madam Chairman,
The transcript provision will be highly
generally requires that a transcript or
I rise in support of the amendment.
expensive to implement in terms of
electronic- recording be kept of each
(Mr. McCLOSKEY asked and was giv-
actual costs and time of agency members.
closed meeting. In recognition of the fact
en permission to revise and extend his
It will result in voluminous paperwork
that some agencies have a high volume
remarks.)
and unnecessary accumulation of highly
of ordinary adjudicatory proceedings,
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Madam Chairman,
sensitive documents. It will be a -con-
transcripts are not required for closed
there are two aspects that the chairman
stant source of litigation and an ever-
meetings that discuss such proceedings
of the subcommittee, the gentlewoman
present source of conjecture and specu-
or civil actions in which the agency is
from New York (Ms. ABZUG) pointed out.
lation.
involved.
She spoke of litigation, and it is quite
Moreover, the key sponsors of this bill
clear that unless this amendment is
stated from the outset that the sunshine
Under the scheme of this legislation,
bill is based on the experience of State
the existence of a transcript of a closed
adopted, this legislation provides a great
case for legislation against the Federal
sunshine laws. However, not a single
meeting has two critical functions. First,
Government in nearly every matter in
State sunshine or open meetings law con-
a meeting closed with the reasonable ex-
which the Government operatès, be-
tains any requirement for verbatim
pectation that exempt material will be
cause of the lure of obtaining and making
transcripts. This provision is strictly an
discussed will in many instances turn
public information on the private meet-
invention of the bill's sponsors and sup-
out to have little or no such discussion.
ings that are held on the subjects we
porters at the Federal level.
The existence of a transcript or elec-
have exempted, including national se-
I see no reason for the Federal Gov-
tronic recording will permit the agency
curity matters, personnel matters, patent
to make public those portions of the dis-
ernment to take such unprecedented
matters, and matters which may en-
action.
cussion that do not contain exempt in-
danger the stability of financial institu-
formation.
I see no reason why this provision
tions. The very reason why we should
should be maintained in the legislation
Second, the existence of a transcript
hold these matters private is to accom-
we are considering and urge support for
is the primary potential remedy for a
plish competent government in these
my amendment which would delete the
litigant who proves to a court that a
fields.
verbatim transcript requirement and re-
meeting was unlawfully closed. Since any
When the gentlewoman speaks of liti-
place it with a requirement that minutes
court ruling will almost always come long
gation, I think we can see basically the
be kept of each closed meeting and re-
after the meeting is held, and since a
reason why this section is in the bill.
tained by the agency. Such minutes
plaintiff suing only under this act will
It is to permit additional litigation
would obviously be available for sub-
not be able to overturn the substantive
against the Government.
penn and in camera examination in any
action taken at an unlawfully closed
We have seen much litigation in both
court action brought to determine
meeting, what remedy has he other than
the Privacy Act and the Freedom of In-
whether the open meeting provision of
to have the transcripts made available
formaiton Act, which are still in a shake-
the sunshine law has been violated.
to him? I note in this connection that al-
down process to see whether the bene-
Therefore, eliminating the transcript re-
though the judicial review provisions of
fits of those acts do not impose an undue
suirement would in no way weaken the
this legislation permit the court to make
burden on the Government. We have
#nforceability 11:10ns. of the open meeting pro-
the transcript public if the meeting was
seen immense litigation in these areas.
unlawfully closed, the court would not
I suggest that this verbatim transcript
I urge the adoption of my amendment.
disclose discrete items contained within
requirement, which is not found in any
The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gen-
such a transcript which are themselyes
State law in this country-no Sunshine
Geman from New York (Mr. HORTON)
of an exempt character. For example, if
Act requires a verbatim transcript of
has expired.
a meeting were closed because of a pur-
private meetings-would be a fruitful
ported discussion of trade secrets and a
source of litigation.
Secondly, let me submit this to my
many times it is a quasi-judicial body-
allowed to proceed for 2 additional
colleagues: Would we impose this on
then it should all be on the record. It is
minutes.)
ourselves as Members of Congress?
not the same as our deliberation.
Mr. LEVITAS. Madam Chairman, will
Would we require that all of our dis-
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Let us take the case
the gentleman yield?
cussions of congressional business that
of our own CONGRESSIONAL RECORD. Would
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I yield to the gen-
are conducted privately be held subject
the gentleman say that our verbatim
tleman from Georgia.
to a full verbatim transcript?
transcripts should not be subject to
Mr. LEVITAS. Madam Chairman, I
There is no right to revise and extend
revision?
thank the gentleman for yielding.
here. There is no privilege in a verbatim
Mr. SEIBERLING. This is a legislative
Would the gentleman agree with me,
transcript of a collegial meeting to go
body, and our function is entirely
in response to the observations máde just
back and take out the words we thought
different.
now by our distinguished colleague, the
were wrong. This is a verbatim tran-
The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gen-
gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr.
script. This would in effect remove from
tleman from California (Mr. McCLos-
DRINAN), that the sunshine laws, which
the Members of the House of Representa-
KEY) has expired.
have been in existence for a number of
tives, if wè imposed this on ourselves, the
(On request of Mr. DRINAN and by
years in many States, including my own,
right to go back and correct our errors
unanimous consent, Mr. McCLOSKEY was
have worked effectively? There have been
of grammar, our errors of syntax, or our
allowed to proceed for 2 additional
opportunities for aggrieved parties to
errors when perhaps we went too far in
minutes.)
show that meetings were improperly
our characterization of a colleague.
Mr. DRINAN. Madam Chairman, will
held, without the necessity of the tran-
There is one final matter, and this
the gentleman yield?
script, and that that is a sufficient an-
goes back to ordinary human experience.
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I yield to the gen-
swer to the need to protect the person
Many of us were practicing attorneys in
tleman from Massachusetts.
who would otherwise be aggrieved.
small towns.
Mr. DRINAN. Madam Chairman, I
However, let me explore this a little bit
If a person came to us and said,
appreciate the gentleman's argument,
further.
"Would you give me a recommendation
but how do we respond, again, if we get
Do I understand that this would re-
as to a fellow attorney who can handle
only minutes of a meeting held in secret?
quire the chiefs of staff meeting in a sec-
a will or a divorce or a criminal action,"
Then how can anyone ever establish the
ret session on national security matters
all of us will give a candid and truthful
question of whether or not they had
to maintain a transcript?
response: "No." We would say, "That
the right to go into a secret session and
Mr. McCLOSKEY. That is correct. If
man is corrupt" or "That man is in-
decide the fate of something very
they are in a commission or a commit-
competent."
important?
tee and a committee as defined by law is
However, would we give that same
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I do not think that
an agency, it would require a verbatim
candid-response if we knew that the ver-
the question of whether they have a right
transcript, a recorded vote to close the
batim words that we spoke in advising
to go into secret session has anything to
meeting, and a transcript of the meeting
as to a fellow colleague were going to
do with what they say in the secret
which might ultimately be made avail-
be in a record that might eventually be
session.
able to the public.
subpenaed and made public?
Mr. DRINAN. But if we have only
My primary objection to this is that if
This has an immensely chilling effect
minutes and not the transcript, how
we are going to test whether a verbatim
on the kind of derogatory but truthful
could anybody establish whether or not
transcript is helpful or harmful, we
comment that an agency like the SEC
they had the right to do this in secret
should not do so with every agency of a
must consider when they consider taking
and come to the decisions which they
Federal Government which has had ab-
the stock of a company off the trading
came to, because there is absolutely no
solutely no experience at all in holding
market because the vice president of the
discussion; there is no provision for a
such hearings. If we wanted to test this
company is dishonest.
transcript; there is nothing but sum-
as an experiment as to whether an
What person is going to say in an open
marized minutes? That could leave the
agency might operate better through
meeting or in a closed meeting of which
petitioner whose fate is decided in secret
such a procedure that we should have
a verbatim transcript is being made, "I
without any recourse.
the Federal Reserve Board or the Secu-
believe that man is crooked, for these
Mr. McCLOSKEY. What the gentle-
rities and Exchange Commission be re-
reasons, A, B, and C, and therefore, we
man says is properly so. That has been
quired to do this. But this is a blanket
ought to take this stock off the market"?
the law in this country for 200 years.
requirement on all agencies of the Gov-
Madam Chairman, in my judgment,
There is no city, county, State, agency,
ernment, and we have had no experience
this balance we seek between truth and
or any other body in government that is
at all. We have no estimates as to what
candor on the part of a regulatory
required to keep a verbatim transcript
the costs will be. We will be starting into
agency and the openness of their records
of a private meeting.
a whole new profession, that of trans-
is such that in this case the balance, in
Would anyone urge that the Congress
cribing and reporting these agencies'
my judgment, comes down to the point
of the United States ought to impose
procedures.
where we should not require a verbatim
upon the Federal Government a require-
Also, Madam Chairman, bear in mind
transcript of the very meeting which we
ment that has not been imposed on any
that every member of the Commission is
feel should be held privately in order to
agency of government in this country
going to spend a day deliberating in the
give people the opportunity to make
for 200 years?
Commission and then spend a day re-
candid and truthful comments.
Mr. DRINAN. If the gentleman would
viewing what they said in the meeting.
Mr. SEIBERLING. Madam Chairman,
yield further, this is a private meeting
The paperwork involved and the com-
will the gentleman yield?
conducted in private by people who say
plexity of these transcripts is going to
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I yield to the gen-
they have a right to go into private ses-
be stupendous.
tleman from Ohio.
sion, and we have no facts on which we
The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gen-
Mr. SEIBERLING. Madam Chairman,
can base a decision on the initial ques-
tleman has again expired.
I think it is too bad that the author of
tion of whether they have a right to go
(On request of Mr. HORTON, and by
this amendment has such a good ad-
into a private session.
unanimous consent, Mr. McCLOSKEY was
vocate, because I think the merits of
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I know the gentle-
allowed to proceed for 2 additional min-
the amendment are far less than the
man from Massachusetts (Mr. DRINAN)
utes.)
gentleman's statement really justifies.
looks forward to a new Democratic ad-
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, will
In the first place, we have already
ministration. However, I submit, is there
the gentleman yield?
adopted an amendment that says that
any other government in the world, ex-
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I yield to the gen-
two persons can meet together and dis-
cept this new administration, on which
tleman from New York.
cuss anything they want without its
this requirement will be imposed?
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
being in the bill.
The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gen-
think the question that was posed by the
In the second place, if there is a meet-
tleman from California (Mr. McCLos-
gentleman from Massachusetts (Mr.
ing of members of the executive branch
KEY) has again expired.
DRINAN) went to the question of what can
of the Government, which is comparable
(On request of Mr. HORTON and by
we do without a transcript in the event
to a court in terms of its importance—
unanimous consent, Mr. McCLoskey was
we want to go to court to test whether
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
H 7893
or not the meeting should have been
minutes is a sufficient substitute is to
The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gen-
closed? I think that is a good question.
beg the question.
tleman has expired.
The answer is that that is done all of
Let us talk about the fear that has been
(At the request of Mr. EVANS of Colo-
the time now. The court can, in camera,
expressed that in some way the agency
rado, and by unanimous consent, Mr.
examine the proceedings, can get the
is going to be dragged into court, or that
FASCELL was allowed to proceed for 2 ad-
minutes of the meeting, examine them,
State agencies do not now require tran-
ditional minutes.)
get the testimony of those who were pres-
script keeping. The difference in the
Mr. EVANS of Colorado. Madam
ent by whatever means are available. But
State agencies is that they have substan-
Chairman, will the gentleman yield?
the onerous requirement of having a
tive penalties. They can undo the action
Mr. FASCELL. I will be glad to yield
transcript it seems to me is out of order
of the agency when they go to court. No
to the gentleman from Colorado.
insófar as the type of meetings we are
such penalty is provided in this bill.
Mr. EVANS of Colorado. I thank the
talking about and the publication or
The critical issue is the public's right
gentleman for yielding.
making available the transcript.
to know. How does a transcript come to
One thing that concerns me is the
Mr. McCLOSKEY. I thank the gen-
play in that, and is the fear real that in
comment that the gentleman made about
tleman.
some way some person with derogatory
some citizen's rights being adversely af-
Mr. BROOKS. Madam Chairman, I
information might get that information
fected in a private meeting and not be-
move to strike the requisite number of
out? The answer is, "No." Why is that?
ing able to prove whether or not the
words, and I rise in opposition tc the
The plaintiff has the burden of prov-
meeting should or should not have been
amendment to the amendment in the
ing his lawsuit that the agency meeting
private unless he has got a transcript. It
nature of a substitute.
was improperly closed to start with. He
seems to me that correctness of the pri-
(Mr. BROOKS asked and was given
has that burden. The relief that is grant-
vacy of the meeting is determined by the
permission to revise and extend his re-
ed under this bill, which is that infor-
action taken, that is, the ultimate action
marks.)
mation which should be released will be
taken. What conversation went into the
Mr. BROOKS. Madam Chairman, the
released. But the protection in the bill
ultimate action that was taken is some-
requirement that the Government agen-
that is provided here is ample and ade-
thing else again, and I am a little con-
cies keep a transcript of their closed
quate to allay the fears that have been
cerned about feeling that the conversa-
meeting follows very closely the proce-
expressed, because it says that the judge
tions behind the action are going to be
dures of many congressional committees.
can only release that information which
the things that measure whether or not
I see no reason why a Government agen-
should be made public. Any information
the action taken, of which he complains,
cy could not keep a transcript through
which would be properly withheld under
was wrong to be taken in a private
equipment that my 9-year-old boy has
one of the classifications or exemptions
meeting.
and can operate. It does not take any
in the bill, the judge would have no right
Mr. FASCELL. Madam Chairman, I
special talent as equipment.
to release.
can say this to the gentleman: that the
In my opinion it is just the desire to
We cannot be held responsible for
only way we can ever make the determi-
keep permanently secret these Govern-
leaks in the agencies, if there is a fear
nation is for the plaintiff to bring a law-
ment activities of these agencies. But I
that the stuff is going to get out. It is
suit and the judge to make a decision.
say, Madam Chairman, that just because
getting out now-the individual Mem-
The court is going to have to make that
a meeting is closed is no reason that an
bers' copies of the minutes, documents,
decision. If the transcript is available,
official record of the business could not
and papers. The transcript, whether it
the judge sees it "in camera" and then
be and should not be kept. The deci-
exists or not, is not going to solve the
decides whether the transcript or any
sion to close the meeting may well have
problem downtown. It is not going to
part of it is properly withholdable. If it
been made at an earlier meeting and if
give them any more or less protection.
is, it is not released. If he decides the in-
that is later reversed, then it is impera-
The issue that is involved is that with-
formation was improperly withheld, he
tive that a transcript be available if the
out the transcript the judge cannot really
has the discretion to release the infor-
aims of any "sunshine" legislation are to
make a determination whether the
mation which should have been made
be met.
plaintiff is entitled to his rights under
public in the first instance or he can issue
Mr. FASCELL. Madam Chairman, I
this bill. What does he get when he gets
an injunction against the agency.
move to strike the requisite number of
all of it? What does he get out of it? Do
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
words, and I rise in opposition to the
the Members know what he gets? He gets
the amendment offered by the gentleman
amendment to the amendment in the
the information which the public should
from New York (Mr. HORTON) to the
nature of a substitute.
have had in the first place. Why deny
amendment in the nature of a substitute
Mr. FASCELL. Madam Chairman,
him that right? The whole purpose of the
offered by the gentleman from Alabama
the one government in the world that
pending amendment is simply to do away
(Mr. FLOWERS).
deals with transcripts is the Congress of
with the transcripts, to make it abso-
The question was taken; and the
the United States, I will say to my dis--
lutely almost impossible that any citizen
Chairman announced that the noes ap-
tinguished colleague, the gentleman from
of the United States would have the
peared to have it.
California (Mr. McCLoskey). We prob-
right ever to say, "I think that meeting
RECORDED VOTE
ably have more transcripts around here
was improperly closed. There is some
than any place else in the world and it
information there which should have
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
is a darned good thing that we do, I will
demand a recorded vote.
been made public." The court might say,
tell the Members, because we would not
A recorded vote was ordered.
"There is something there that ought to
know what was going on if we did not
be made public." If it was not classified
The vote was taken by electronic de-
have the transcripts.
under this bill or some other law, the
vice, and there were-ayes 201, noes 193,
I think it would be very helpful for
judge could release it. But if under this
not voting 38, as follows:
every agency downtown, instead of hav-
law it is properly exempted, or under
[Roll No. 562]
Ing somebody keep minutes that simply
some other law it is properly withheld,
AYES-201
say that they and then the meeting
the judge has no discretion to release
Abdnor
Broomfield
Collins, Tex.
was adjourned, that there be a transcript
that information. The only information
Adams
Brown, Mich.
Conable
made so that we would know what was
he can release is that information which
Anderson, III.
Brown, Ohio
Conlan
going on.
Andrews, N.C.
Broyhill
Coughlin
should have been made public in the first
Andrews,
Buchanan
It seems to me It is very sensible for a
Daniel, Dan
instance. And the plaintiff, the citizen,
N. Dak.
Burgener
Daniel, R. W.
government agency to have an official
had to go to all of the trouble to bring
Archer
Burke, Fla.
Davis
record of its actions in the nature of a
Armstrong
Burleson, Tex.
de la Garza
that suit. Now the gentleman wants to
Ashbrook
Butler
transcript, even if it is locked up in its
Delaney
deny him with this amendment the right
Ashley
Byron
Derrick
safe Somewhere there ought to be an of-
ficial record of the transaction of the bus-
to the transcript. He wants to deny to
Beard, Tenn.
Carter
Derwinski
Bell
Cederberg
Devine
the Government and to the Congress the
these of a body of our Government that
Biaggi
Chappell
Dickinson
official record, which could be kept locked
Biester
deals with the lives of millions of people.
Clancy
Downing, Va.
There ought to be that transcript some-
up in the Government's safe, never to
Boggs
Clausen,
Duncan, Oreg.
Bowen
Don H.
where. To say that the mere keeping of
be seen by anybody unless in some way
Duncan, Tenn.
Breckinridge
Clawson, Del
du Pont
they have violated the law.
Brinkley
Cochran
Eckhardt
7894
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
July 28, 1976
Edwards, Ala.
LaFalce
Regula
Rousselot
Smith, Iowa
Udall
House of H.R. 11656, this is no longer
English
Lagomarsino
Rhodes
Roybal
Solarz
Vander Veen
Erlenborn
Latta
Risenhoover
Russo
Spellman
Vanik
the case. In substance, my amendment
Eshleman
Lent
Roberts
St Germain
Staggers
Vigorito
merely provides that the carefully
Evans, Colo.
Levitas
Robinson
Santini
Stark
Waxman
crafted standards regulating openness of
Fary
Lloyd, Tenn.
Runnels
Sarbanes
Steelman
Weaver
Fenwick
Lott
Ruppe
Scheuer
Stokes
Whalen
meetings contained in the Sunshine bill
Findley
Lujan
Ryan
Schroeder
Studds
Wirth
will be made applicable to Federal ad-
Fish
Lundine
Sarasin
Seiberling
Symms
Wolff
visory committees.
Flynt
MpClory
Satterfield
Sharp
Thompson
Yates
Foley
McCloskey
Schneebeli
Shipley
Traxler
I understand that this amendment is
Yatron
Forsythe
McCollister
Schulze
Simon
Tsongas
Young, Fla.
acceptable to the committee and I yield
Frenzel
McCormack
Sebelius
Frey
McDade
Shriver
NOT VOTING-38
the balance of my time to the Honorable
BELLA ABZUG for the purpose of receiving
Gaydos
McEwen
Shuster
Burton, John
Jones, Ala.
Sisk
Ginn
McKay
Sikes
Clay
Jones, Tenn.
Stanton,
the views of the committee on this
Goldwater
McKinney
Skubitz
Dent
Karth
James V.
matter.
Goodling
Madigan
Slack
Diggs
Landrum
Steiger, Ariz.
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, will
Gradison
Mahon
Smith, Nebr.
Esch
Leggett
Stratton
Guyer
Mann
Snyder
Evins, Tenn.
Litton
Stuckey
the gentleman yield?
Haley
Martin
Spence
Fountain
O'Hara
Sullivan
Mr. MOSS. I yield to the gentleman
Hall, Tex.
Mathis
Stanton,
Giaimo
O'Neill
Symington
from New York.
Hammer-
Michel
J. William
Hansen
Peyser
Wampler
schmidt
Mikva
Steed
Hébert
Reuss
Wiggins
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, the
Hanley
Milford
Steiger, Wis.
Helstoski
Riegle
Wilson, C. H.
gentleman has presented the amend-
Harsha
Miller, Ohio
Stephens
Hightower
Roe
Young, Ga.
ment to us, and I have gone over it. The
Hays, Ohio
Mills
Talcott
Hinshaw
Rostenkowski
Zeferetti
Heckler, Mass.
Mitchell, N.Y.
Taylor, Mo.
minority will be very happy to accept
Hefner
Mollohan
Taylor, N.C.
The Clerk announced the following
the amendment. I believe it improves the
Henderson
Montgomery
Teague
pairs:
bill.
Hillis
Moore
Thone
Holland
Moorhead,
Thornton-
Mr. Hébert for, with Mr. O'Neill against.
Mr. MOSS. Madam Chairman, I thank
Holt
Calif.
Treen
Mr. Landrum for, with Mr. Dent against.
the gentleman.
Horton
Mosher
Ullman
Mr. Steiger of Arizona for, with Mr.
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, will
Hubbard
Murphy, III.
Van Deerlin
Zeferetti against.
Hungate
Murtha
Vander Jagt
the gentleman yield?
Mr. Wampler for, with Mr. John Burton
Hutchinson
Myers, Ind.
Waggonner
Mr. MOSS. I yield to the gentlewoman
Hyde
Myers, Pa.
Walsh
against.
from New York:
Ichord
Natcher
White
Jarman
Nedzi
Whitehurst
Mr. NEDZI and Mr. MIKVA changed
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, this
Jeffords
O'Brien
Whitten
their vote from "no" to "aye."
is essentially a conforming amendment
Jenrette
Passman
Wilson, Bob
Mr. McDONALD and Mr. ROUSSELOT
which would reflect in the Federal Ad-
Johnson, Pa.
Pepper
Wilson, Tex.
Jones, N.C.
Winn
changed their vote from "aye" to "no."
visory Committee Act the enactment of
Pettis
Jones, Okla.
Pickle
Wright
So the amendment to the amendment
the sunshine bill.
Jordan
Poage
Wydler
in the nature of a substitute was agreed
When the Advisory Committee Act was
Kasten
Pritchard
Wylie
to.
enacted in 1972, we did not have a gen-
Kelly
Quie
Young, Alaska
Ketchum
Quillen
Young, Tex.
The result of the vote was announced
eral open meeting law. As a result, that
Kindness
Railsback
Zablocki
as above recorded.
act provided that meetings of advisory
Krueger
Rees
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. MOSS TO THE
committees were to be governed by the
NOES-193
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE
exemptions in the Freedom of Informa-
Abzug
Downey, N.Y.
McDonald
OFFERED BY MR. FLOWERS
tion Act. The FOIA exemptions, though,
Addabbo
Drinan
McFall
Mr. MOSS. Madam Chairman, I offer
are designed for documents rather than
Alexander
Early
McHugh
an amendment to the amendment in the
for meetings, and there have been a num-
Allen
Edgar
Madden
Ambro
Edwards,Calif.
Maguire
nature of a substitute.
ber of difficulties arising from that dis-
Anderson,
Eilberg
Matsunaga
The Clerk read as follows:
crepancy. Now that we are enacting this
Calif.
Emery
Mazzoli
Annunzio
Evans, Ind.
Meeds
Amendment offered by Mr. Moss to the
open meeting legislation. which contains
Aspin
Fascell
Melcher
amendment in the nature of a substitute of-
exemptions like those in the Freedom
AuCoin
Fisher
Metcalfe
fered by Mr. FLOWERS: Page 19, after line 12,
of Information Act, but tailored espe-
Badillo
Fithian
Meyner
Bafalis
Flood
Mezvinsky
add to section 5 the following new subsec-
cially for meetings, we should apply these
Baldus
Florio
Miller, Calif.
tion:
exemptions to the Advisory Committee
Baucus
Flowers
Mineta
"(c) Subsection (d) of section 10 of the
Act as well. That is exactly what this
Bauman
Ford, Mich.
Minish
Federal Advisory Committee Act is amended
amendment would do, and I am pleased
Beard, R.I.
Ford, Tenn.
Mink
Bedell
Fraser
Mitchell, Md.
by striking out the first sentence and insert-
to support it.
Bennett
Fuqua
Moakley
ing in lieu thereof the following: "Subsec-
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman,
Bergland
Gibbons
Moffett
tions (a) (1) and (a) (3) of this section shall
will the gentleman yield?
Bevill
Gilman
Moorhead, Pa.
not apply to any portion of an advisory com-
Bingham
Gonzalez
Morgan
mittee meeting where the President, or the
Mr. MOSS. I yield to the gentleman
Blanchard
Grassley
Moss
head of the agency to which the advisory
from Alabama.
Blouin
Green
Mottl
Boland
Gude
Murphy, N.Y.
committee reports, determines that such
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman, the
Bolling
Hagedorn
Neal
meeting may be closed to the public in ac-
gentleman from California (Mr. Moss)
Bonker
Hall, Ill.
Nichols
cordance with subsection (c) of section 552b
has gone over this amendment with us,
Brademas
Hamilton
Nix
of title 5, United States Code"."
Breaux
Hannaford
Nolan
and we have absolutely no objection to it.
Brodhead
Harkin
Nowak
Mr. MOSS. Madam Chairman, the
We concur in the amendment and are
Brooks
Harrington
Oberstar
amendment is straightforward. It would
glad to accept it.
Brown, Calif.
Harris
Obey
Burke, Calif.
Hawkins
Ottinger
cure an oversight in the Federal Advisory
Mr. MOSS. Madam Chairman, I thank
Burke, Mass.
Hayes, Ind.
Patten, N.J.
Committee Act. That act regulates,
the gentleman, and I yield back the bal-
Burlison, Mo.
Hechler, W. Va.
Patterson,
among other things, the organization,
ance of my time.
Burton, Phillip
Heinz
Calif.
Carney
Hicks
Pattison, N.Y.
makeup, and openness of the many ad-
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
Carr
Holtzman
Paul
visory committees which provide infor-
the amendment offered by the gentleman
Chisholm
Howard
Perkins
mation and counsel to agencies of our
from California (Mr. Moss) to the
Cleveland
Howe
Pike
Cohen
Hughes
Pressler
Government. Unfortunately, the Federal
amendment in the nature of a substitute
Collins, III.
Jacobs
Preyer
Advisory Committee Act regulates pub-
offered by the gentleman from Alabama
Conte
Johnson, Calif.
Price
lic access to meetings of public advisors
(Mr. FLOWERS).
Conyers
Johnson, Colo.
Randall
to agencies pursuant to the Freedom of
Corman
Kastenmeier
Rangel
The amendment to the amendment
Kazen
Richmond
Information Act, an act designed to re-
Cornell
in the nature of a substitute was agreed
Cotter
Kemp
Rinaldo
gulate the disclosure of documents.
to.
Crane
Keys
Rodino
On its face, this is an inappropriate
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. MOORHEAD OF
D'Amours
Koch
Rogers
cross-reference in that act. But it was re-
CALIFORNIA TO THE AMENDMENT IN THE NA-
Daniels, N.J.
Krebs
Roncalio
quired when the Advisory Committee Act
TURE OF A SUBSTITUTE OFFERED BY MR.
Danielson
Lehman
Rooney
Dellums
Lloyd, Calif.
was passed because there did not exist
FLOWERS
Rose
Dingell
Long, La.
Rosenthal
at that time a measure which regulated
Mr. MOORHEAD of California. Mad-
Dodd
Long, Md.
Roush
meetings. With the consideration by the
am Chairman, I offer an amendment
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
7895
to the amendment in the nature of a
redress if an agency denies you that
Smith, Nebr.
Teague
Wilson, Bob
substitute.
right." Unfortunately, that is exactly
Snyder
Treen
Winn
Spence
Ullman
Wydler
The Clerk read as follows:
what this amendment would do.
Stanton,
Vander Jagt
Wylie
Amendment offered by Mr. MOORHEAD of
The bill before you does not allow a
J. William
Waggonner
Young, Alaska
California to the amendment in the nature
citizen plaintiff to nullify the substan-
Talcott
White
Young, Fla.
Taylor, Mo.
Whitehurst
of a substitute offered by Mr. FLOWERS:
tive action taken at an unlawfully closed
Taylor, N.C.
Whitten
On page 12, line 8, delete "by".
meeting. The most that he can get is ac-
On page 12, line 9, delete "any person".
NOES-258
cess to the transcript of the meeting and
Abzug
Flowers
a court order prohibiting the agency
Mottl
Mr. MOORHEAD of California. Mad-
Adams
Flynt
Murphy, Ill.
am Chairman, the bill as it is presently
from closing meetings on the grounds in
Addabbo
Foley
Murphy, N.Y.
written permits any person, whether
question.
Alexander
Ford, Mich.
Myers, Pa.
This concept of citizen standing is not
Allen
Ford, Tenn.
Natcher
that person has an interest or not, to
Ambro
Fraser
Neal
bring legal action to enforce the provi-
a new one. It is in the Freedom of Infor-
Anderson,
Frenzel
Nedzi
sions of this legislation.
mation Act, which is now a decade old,
Calif.
Frey
Nichols
and also in the Privacy Act. Those who
Annunzio
Our courts in this country are al-
Fuqua
Nix
Aspin
Giaimo
Nolan
ready tremendously overcrowded. Under
have suggested that the standing provi-
AuCoin
Gibbons
Nowak
the normal rule and under the present
sions contained in the bill raise constitu-
Badillo
Gilman
Oberstar
tional questions are not correct in their
Bafalis
Gonzalez
law in this country pertaining to courts,
Obey
Baldus
Gradison
interpretation. The fact that the statute
Ottinger
in all actions brought, except for a very
Baucus
Grassley
Patten, N.J.
few exceptions, the plaintiff must make
gives any person the right to attend an
Bauman
Green
Patterson,
some showing of specific harm to his
agency meeting confers standing suffi-
Beard, R.I.
Gude
Calif.
interests.
cient to satisfy the constitutional re-
Beard, Tenn.
Hall, Ill.
Pattison, N.Y.
Bedell
Hamilton
Paul
There are certain professional liti-
quirements of article III.
Bennett
Hanley
Pepper
gators in this country who love to get
We are giving any member of the pub-
Bergland
Hannaford
Perkins
Bevill
Harkin
Pike
into court and who try to find any kind
lic the right to attend agency meetings.
Biaggi
Harrington
Pressler
of excuse to get into court, whether they
To say the very least, it would be a gross
Biester
Harris
Preyer
have a reason for going to court or not.
misrepresentation and a cruel hoax on
Bingham
Hayes, Ind.
Price
our part to at the same time prevent
Blanchard
Hechler, W. Va.
Pritchard
At the same time we have people who
Blouin
Heckler, Mass.
Quillen
are failing to get their day in court on
those to whom this right is given from
Boggs
Heinz
Railsback
civil actions and who are delayed from
taking any action to enforce it.
Boland
Hicks
Randall
Bolling
Holland
month to month because of overcrowd-
The amendment should be defeated.
Rees
Bonker
Holtzman
Richmond
ing in the courts. We have recently had
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
Brademas
Howard
Rinaldo
a situation where many of the criminal
the amendment offered by the gentle-
Breaux
Howe
Risenhoover
man from California (Mr. MOORHEAD) to
Breckinridge
Hubbard
defendants in the country who were in-
Rodino
Brodhead
dicted had to have their cases dismissed
the amendment in the nature of a sub-
Hughes
Rogers
Brooks
Hungate
Roncalio
because they could not be brought to
stitute offered by the gentleman from
Brown, Calif.
Jacobs
Rooney
Alabama (Mr. FLOWERS).
Buchanan
Jeffords
Rose
court on time.
We do not need this kind of delay built
The question was taken; and the
Burke, Calif.
Johnson, Calif.
Rosenthal
Burke, Mass.
Johnson, Colo.
Roush
into our system. I think it is most im-
Chairman announced that the noes ap-
Burlison, Mo.
Jones, Okla.
Roybal
portant that under this legislation the
peared to have it.
Burton, Phillip
Jordan
Russo
Carney
Kasten
Ryan
same requirements for going to court
RECORDED VOTE
Carr
Kastenmeier
St Germain
should prevail as would prevail in any
Mr. MOORHEAD of California. Mad-
Chisholm
Keys
Santini
other kind of an action.
am Chairman, I demand a recorded vote.
Cleveland
Koch
Sarasin
Cohen
Krebs
This amendment would simply require
Sarbanes
A recorded vote was ordered.
Collins, Ill.
Krueger
Scheuer
that a defendant who brought the action
The vote was taken by electronic de-
Conte
LaFalce
Schroeder
make some showing that he has been
vice, and there were-ayes 134, noes 258,
Conyers
Leggett
Seiberling
hurt in some way, even though very
Corman
Lehman
Sharp
not voting 40, as follows:
Cornell
Levitas
Simon
slightly, and then he could bring the
Cotter
Lloyd, Calif.
Smith, Iowa
action. If he would have had the door
[Roll No. 563]
Coughlin
Lloyd, Tenn.
Solarz
closed on him or if he wanted to be in
AYES-134
Crane
Long, La.
Spellman
the room when a hearing was held and
Abdnor
Edwards, Ala.
McCollister
D'Amours
Long, Md.
Staggers
Anderson, Ill.
Emery
McDonald
Daniels, N.J.
Lundine
Stark
had been kept out because it was a closed
Andrews, N.C.
Erlenborn
McEwen
Danielson
McCormack
Steed
meeting, he would have a cause of action,
Andrews,
Forsythe
de la Garza
McDade
McKay
Steelman
but a person who was nowhere near the
N. Dak.
Gaydos
Martin
Delaney
McFall
Steiger, Wis.
Archer
hearing and showed no interest in it
Ginn
Mathis
Dellums
McHugh
Stokes
Armstrong
Goldwater
Michel
Derrick
McKinney
Studds
would not have a cause of action.
Ashbrook
Goodling
Milford
Derwinski
Madden
Symms
Madam Chairman, I ask that the
Ashley
Guyer
Miller, Ohio
Diggs
Madigan
Thompson
Bell
amendment be adopted.
Hagedorn
Mills
Dingell
Maguire
Thone
Bowen
Haley
Mollohan
Dodd
Mahon
Thornton
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I move
Brinkley
Hall, Tex.
Montgomery
Downey, N.Y.
Mann
Traxler
to strike the last word, and I rise in op-
Broomfield
Hammer-
Moore
Drinan
Matsunaga
Tsongas
position to the amendment.
Brown, Mich.
schmidt
Moorhead,
Duncan, Tenn.
Mazzoli
Udall
Brown, Ohio
Harsha
Calif.
du Pont
Meeds
Van Deerlin
(Ms. ABZUG asked and was given per-
Broyhill
Hays, Ohio
Murtha
Early
Melcher
Vander Veen
mission to revise and extend her re-
Burgener
Hefner
Myers, Ind.
Eckhardt
Metcalfe
Vanik
marks.)
Burke, Fla.
Hillis
O'Brien
Edgar
Meyner
Vigorito
Burleson, Tex.
Holt
Passman
Edwards, Calif.
Mezvinsky
Walsh
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I rise
Butler
Horton
Pettis
Eilberg
Mikva
Waxman
in opposition to the amendment. The
Byron
Hutchinson
Pickle
English
Miller, Calif.
Weaver
sunshine bill is designed to let any citizen
Carter
Hyde
Poage
Evans, Colo.
Mineta
Whalen
Cederberg
Ichord
Quie
Evans, Ind.
Minish
Wilson, C. H.
see what agencies are doing by attending
Chappell
Jarman
Regula
Fary
Mink
Wilson, Tex.
their meetings.
Clancy
Jenrette
Roberts
Fascell
Mitchell, Md.
Wirth
This bill is not designed for the benefit
Clausen,
Johnson, Pa.
Robinson
Fenwick
Mitchell, N.Y.
Wolff
Don H.
Jones, N.C.
Rousselot
Findley
Moakley
Wright
of those who are parties to agency pro-
Clawson, Del
Kazen
Runnels
Fish
Moffett
Yates
ceedings, but for the benefit of all mem-
Cochran
Kelly
Ruppe
Fisher
Moorhead, Pa.
Yatron
bers of the public who want to know
Collins, Tex.
Kemp
Satterfield
Fithian
Morgan
Young, Tex.
Conable
Ketchum
Schneebeli
Flood
Mosher
Zablocki
what the agencies are doing and how
Conlan
Kindness
Schulze
Florio
Moss
they go about making the decisions that
Daniel, Dan
Lagomarsino
Sebelius
Daniel, R. W.
NOT VOTING-40
affect all of our lives so pervasively. We
Latta
Shipley
Davis
Lent
Shriver
Burton, John
Evins, Tenn.
Helstoski
cannot very well tell our constituents,
Devine
Lott
Shuster
Clay
Fountain
Henderson
"We are giving you the right to attend
Dickinson
Lujan
Sikes
Dent
Hansen
Hightower
Agency meetings, but you may not seek
Downing, Va.
McClory
Skubitz
Esch
Hawkins
Hinshaw
Duncan, Oreg.
McCloskey
Slack
Eshleman
Hébert
Jones, Ala.
H 7896
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
July 28, 1976
Jones, Tenn.
Rhodes
Stratton
our commitment to openness in Govern-
Mr. FASÇELL. Madam Chairman, will
Karth
Riegle
Stuckey
ment.
Landrum
Roe
Sullivan
the gentleman yield?
Litton
Rostenkowski
Symington
Faith of a people in their Government
Mr. LATTA. I yield to the gentleman
O'Hara
Sisk
Wampler
is the cornerstone of a democracy. Pub-
from Florida.
O'Neill
Stanton,
Wiggins
James V.
Young, Ga.
lic policy determined after public dis-
Peyser
Mr. FASCELL Madam Chairman, I
Rangel
Steiger, Ariz.
Zeferetti
cussion of the issues is one of the pre-
can appreciate the gentleman's concern
Reuss
Stephens
cepts upon which that faith is based and
about the narrowness of the phrase
The Clerk announced the following
we are all accountable today for our
"status report"; but on the other hand,
pairs:
actions in maintaining and enlarging
the question of the broadness or liberal-
On this vote:
openness in Government.
ity of the word "information" on the
Mr. Hébert for, with Mr..O'Neill against.
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. LATTA TO THE
other side, raises a question. I do not
Mr. Henderson for, with Mr. Dent against.
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE
think the gentleman means this. This
Mr. Fountain for, with Mr. Zeferetti
OFFERED BY MR. FLOWERS
is the reason I ask this question. If an
against.
Mr. LATTA. Madam Chairman, I offer
individual wants to contact a member of
an amendment to the amendment in the
So the amendment to the amendment
the Board who is making a decision, in
nature of a substitute.
in the nature of a substitute was rejected.
the middle of a proceeding, to get infor-
The Clerk read as follows:
The result of the vote was announced
mation on that decision, that is not cov-
as above recorded.
Amendment offered by Mr. LATTA to the
ered under this amendment? The gen-
amendment in the nature of a substitute of-
Mr. FUQUA. Madam Chairman, I
tleman does not contemplate making
fered by Mr. FLOWERS: Page 18, line 18, after
move to strike the last word.
legitimate, under the law, the right of an
"given" strike the period and insert "; but
(Mr. FUQUA asked and was given
individual to get to the decisionmaker
it shall not include requests for information
permission to revise and extend his
on or status reports relative to any matter
in the middle of a proceeding?
remarks.)
or proceeding covered by this subchapter."
Mr. LATTA. We are talking about ex
Mr. FUQUA. Madam Chairman, as one
parte communications.
(Mr. LATTA asked and was given per-
of the cosponsors of the Government in
Mr. FASCELL. If the gentleman will
mission to revise and extend his re-
the Sunshine Act, I want to say what
yield further, I might make a call to an
marks.)
great personal pride I feel in witnessing
agency even though I am not a party to
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman,
this debate today.
the proceeding.
will the gentleman yield?
My home State of Florida originated
Let me ask this question. Under the
Mr. LATTA. I yield to the gentleman
government in the sunshine more than
gentleman's language, would it be legal
from Alabama.
a decade ago and the results have been
for me to go to the judge and say, "Judge,
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman,
spectacular. People feel more confidence
I want you to vote my way on this de-
the gentleman from Ohio has gone over
in their decisionmakers and, conse-
cision."
the amendment with this Member. I
quently, have more confidence in the de-
Mr. LATTA. Absolutely not.
think it would perhaps help out in the
cisions that are finally reached.
Mr. FASCELL. That is what I meant.
legislation.
We need this concept at the national
Would it be legal for any other individual
I think that the problem might arise
level and we need it now. Watergate and
to call that judge?
from someone's reading of the term in
other events of the last few years have
Mr. LATTA. Absolutely not. I might
the first two subparagraphs of subsec-
shown dramatically the need for open-
say to the gentleman, people on this side
tion (1). It might be well to re-
ness in government. For far too long
and on that side working on the bill,
vise the definition of ex parte com-
important decisions affecting the lives of
drew this amendment with the under-
munication, to alleviate the situation.
all Americans have been made behind
standing it would apply to everybody and
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, will
closed doors. This is not the way to run
not just be limited to Members of Con-
the gentleman yield?
a democracy.
gress.
Mr. LATTA. I am happy to yield to
When administrative and executive
Mr. FASCELL. Madam Chairman, if
the gentlewoman.
agency decisions are reached, the people
the gentleman will yield further, what
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I have
have a right to know what alternatives
the gentleman from Ohio has in mind is
some problem with this. The language
were considered and rejected. what pres-
that routine inquiries going to agencies
used here is "request for information."
sures were applied by different interest
saying, "What is the situation? What is
Now, I feel "information" is a very
groups and the reasoning behind the de-
going on? How long is it going to take?"
broad word. I thought the gentleman
cision. Then, and only then, can we truly
This amendment makes it clear that
was addressing himself to perfunctory
expect people to believe in these deci-
kinds of inquiries would not be prevented
inquiries, such as for status reports con-
sions.
and would not have to be put on the
cerning particular proceedings. The
In many important ways, our lives are
record, but any inquiry which would or
word he has used might raise a lot of
affected by bureaucratic edicts. The peo-
could reasonably be considered as affect-
trouble and beyond where the gentle-
ple must have confidence in these edicts
ing or attempting to affect the decision-
man really wants to go. I just wondered
and in the way they were developed. This
makers' decision would be put on the
if the gentleman recognizes that and if
cannot occur when no one knows the
record?
the gentleman did, I might be willing
decisionmaking processes involved.
Mr. LATTA. That is correct.
to take this language to conference and
Mr. FASCELL. Thus any ex parte com-
The bill we are debating today makes
there confine it to the intent of the gen-
munications which attempts to influence
ample room for those few exceptions
tleman, without allowing it to go all over
the decisionmaker would not be exempt
when privacy at a meeting is required.
the lot.
under your language: is that the intent?
But closed door meetings must be the
Mr. LATTA. Madam Chairman, may I
Mr. LATTA. That is what I intend.
exception and never the general rule.
respond to the gentlewoman. I think the
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, will
We have made great strides in opening
word "information" is most important
the gentleman yield?
up House and Senate committee meetings
to this amendment, because we might
Mr. LATTA. I yield to the gentleman
as well as opening up the Democratic
get some agency or department down-
from New York.
caucuses. The standards we have ap-
town very narrowly construing the words
Mr. HORTON. Madam Chairman, I
plied to ourselves have worked well and
"status report" and putting their own in-
have been over the language the gentle-
should be applied throughout the Fed-
terpretation on it. If a Member of Con-
man from Ohio has submitted and we
eral Government.
gress calls downtown and wants a status
feel it would be helpful and we accept it.
People all across this Nation have lost
report on a particular matter, they might
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
confidence in their Government. We can
put a very narrow interpretation on it.
the amendment offered by the gentleman
help restore that confidence by our ac-
I might add that I went over the need
from Ohio (Mr. LATTA) to the amend-
tions today. The Senate acted in a very
for this amendment when I discussed
ment in the nature of a substitute offered
responsible manner when they unani-
the rule on the bill. I am trying to keep
by, the gentleman from Alabama (Mr.
mously passed sunshine legislation and
a door open so that we can get informa-
FLOWERS).
now it is the turn of the House of Rep-
tion from a department or agency with-
The amendment to the amendment in
resentatives to show the American people
out prejudice.
the nature of a substitute was agreed to.
July 28, 1970
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
H 7897
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. M'CLOSKEY TO
emption under the Freedom of Informa-
that the Supreme Court referred to, and
THE AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUB-
tion Act or mandatory statute to the
unless the Court ordered it be be made
STITUTE OFFERED BY MR. FLOWERS
extent that the gentleman or somebody
secret and set particular criteria for it
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Madam Chairman,
feels that even though we have a statute
to be made secret, then by this amend-
I offer an amendment to the amendment
-which authorizes an agency to withhold
ment we are, in effect, directing the
in the nature of a substitute.
information, the language would be such
Director of the Census to make the in-
The Clerk read as follows:
that it would be required to release the
formation available, even though there
Amendment offered by Mr. McCLoskey to
information. That is the way I under-
is a specific law, because right in the
the amendment in the nature of a substi-
stand the gentleman's argument.
statute there is a requirement for specific
tute offered by Mr. FLOWERS: On page 4,
Therefore, he changes this around
criteria.
strike line 10 and everything that follows
through the present amendment so that
Mr. FASCELL. If we take the gentle-
through line 13 and insert in lieu thereof
the qualifying amendment only applies
man's amendment at face value, I would
the following:
"(3) disclose matters specifica" exempted
to permissive statutes, those statutes
hope it says what he says it does.
from disclosure by statute (other than sec-
which provide permission for the admin-
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
tion 552 of this title) provided that such
istrator; is that correct? It would be re-
the amendment offered by the gentleman
statute (A) requires that the matters be
quired that there be particular criteria
from California (Mr. McCLoskey) to the
withheld from the public, or (B) establishes
or particular types of information, but
amendment in the nature of a substitute
particular criteria for withholding or refers
that it would not apply to mandatory
offered by the gentleman from Alabama
to particular types of matters to be with-
statutes; is that correct?
(Mr. FLOWERS).
held. And on page 19, strike line 10 and every-
Mr. McCLOSKEY. That is correct.
The question was taken; and the
thing that follows through line 12 and
What I have not made clear, perhaps,
Chairman, being in doubt, the Com-
insert in lieu thereof the following:
is this: This is my amendment adopted
mittee divided, and there were-ayes 34,
"(3) specifically exempted from disclosure
in the committee unanimously, but be-
noes 35.
by statute (other than section 552b of this
fore the committee heard from HEW or
RECORDED VOTE
title) provided that such statute (A) re-
from the Census Bureau.
quires that the matters be withheld from
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Madam Chairman,
In other words, we went too far in
the public, or (B) establishes particular cri-
I demand a recorded vote.
teria for withholding or refers to particular
requiring all mandatory statutes of sec-
types of matters to be withheld;".
recy to be made subject to the Freedom
A recorded vote was ordered.
of Information Act. We are pulling back
The vote was taken by electronic de-
[Mr. McCLOSKEY addressed the Com-
from that requirement that all informa-
-vice, and there were-ayes 282, noes 112,
mittee. His remarks will appear hereafter
tion required now to be secret by one law
not voting, 38, as follows:
in the Extensions of Remarks.]
is to be made available under this new
[Roll No. 564]
Mr. FASCELL. Madam Chairman, I
law. We are pulling back from the first
AYES-282
move to strike the requisite number of
part of the section.
Abdnor
D'Amours
Harsha
The second section is the one in which
Adams
Daniel, Dan
Hayes, Ind.
words.
the Committee on the Judiciary added
Alexander
Daniel, R. W.
Madam Chairman, I would like to get
Hefner
Allen
this matter straight in my mind, so I
the words "or permitted." They brought
Daniels, N.J.
Heinz
Anderson, Ill.
Davis
Henderson
wish the gentleman from California (Mr.
into the law the very decision we wanted
Andrews, N.C.
de la Garza
Hillis
McCLOSKEY) would stay right where he
to overrule in the Robertson case.
Andrews,
Delaney
Holland
What we have done is to prohibit the
N. Dak.
Derrick
Holt
is so he can answer my inquiry, because I
Annunzio
Derwinski
Horton
am having a little problem also.
requirement that when information is
Archer
Devine
Howe
The original language in the bill of
required to be made secret, we do not
Armstrong
Dickinson
Hubbard
need to apply the Freedom of Informa-
Ashbrook
Dingell
Hughes
the Committee on Government Opera-
Ashley
Dodd
tions read that section 552(b) (3) of title
tion Act or the Sunshine Act to those
Hungate
Aspin
Downey, N.Y.
Hyde
V was amended to read: Subsection (3)
laws.
AuCoin
Downing, Va.
Ichord
"required to be withheld from the public
Mr. FASCELL How are we going to be
Bafalis
Duncan, Oreg.
Jacobs
Baldus
governed under the present language? I
Duncan, Tenn.
Jarman
by any statute establishing particular
Beard, R.I.
du Pont
Jeffords
criteria or referring to particular types
do not see how, under the gentleman's
Beard, Tenn.
Early
Jenrette
amendment, except in the particulars
Redell
Edgar
of information," and the gentleman has
Johnson, Colo.
Bell
offered that as an amendment to the
which I have stated.
Edwards, Ala.
Johnson, Pa.
Bennett
Emery
Jones, N.C.
Freedom of Informaion Act to undo the
In other words, the way the amend-
Bergland
English
Jones, Okla.
ment reads now, whenever there is a
Bevill
Erlenborn
Robertson case decision?
Kasten
statute which mandates that informa-
Biester
Eshleman
Kazen
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Madam Chairman,
Blanchard
Evans, Colo.
if the gentleman will yield, that is cor-
tion can be withheld, that is it, period.
Kelly
Boggs
Evans, Ind.
Kemp
rect.
When it is withheld, there is no change
Boland
Fary
Ketchum
in that under the bill or under the
Bonker
Fenwick
Krebs
Mr. FASCELL Then the Committee on
Bowen'
the Judiciary came along and added the
amendment.
Findley
Krueger
Brademas
Fish
LaFalce
words, "or permitted," to take care of
Mr. McCLOSKEY. No, no. Under the
Breaux
Fisher
Lagomarsino
bill as it stands, without my amendment
Brinkley
Fithian
Latta
those cases where we have a permissive
Broomfield
Flood
statute having authority residing in the
now, the statute that requires informa-
Leggett
Brown, Mich.
Florio
Lent
Secretary but not mandated by the Con-
tion to be held secret has to have par-
Broyhill
Flowers
Levitas
ticular criteria in it or it becomes subject
Buchanan
gress?
Flynt
Lloyd, Calif.
Mr. McCLOSKEY. That is correct.
to being made public.
Burgener
Foley
Lloyd, Tenn.
Burke, Fla.
Ford, Tenn.
Long, Md.
Mr. FASCELL Therefore, that covered
Mr. FASCELL. The gentleman is say-
Burke, Mass.
Forsythe
Lott
both questions; that is to say, both types,
ing that what happens is that the basic
Burleson, Tex.
Frenzel
Lujan
law is being changed by the qualifying
Burlison, Mo.
Frey
where the Freedom of Information Act
McClory
Byron
language; is that correct?
Gaydos
McCloskey
would not require information to be made
Carter
Giaimo
McCollister
public where it was required or permitted
Mr. McCLOSKEY. That is correct.
Cederberg
Gilman
McCormack
to be withheld; is that correct?
Mr. FASCELL. The gentleman is say-
Chappell
Ginn
McDade
ing that all laws that were passed, that
Clancy
Goldwater
McDonald
Mr. McCLOSKEY. That is correct.
Clausen,
Gonzalez
McEwen
Mr. FASCELL Either by law or by
have previously been passed, which re-
Don H.
Gradison
McFall
quired information to be withheld, would
Clawson, Del
Grassley
McKay
referring to particular types of informa-
be subject to the requirement here so
Cleveland
Green
McKinney
tion: is that correct?
Cochran
Gude
Madden
that if they did not say particular classes
Cohen
Mr. McCLOSKEY. That is correct.
Guyer
Madigan
of information or particular criteria,
Collins, Tex.
Haley
Mahon
Mr. FASCELL I gather that what the
that would modify the basic law and
Conable
Hall, Ill.
Mann
gentleman is saying is that the qualify-
Conlan
Hall, Tex.
Mathis
would make all the information avail-
Conte
Hamilton
Mazzoli
the clauses, to wit, establishing particu-
able?
Cornell
Hammer-
Meeds
lar criteria or referring to particular
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Yes; in this coun-
Cotter
schmidt
Melcher
types of information so qualify the ex-
Coughlin
Hanley
Michel
try there are about 200 of these laws
Crane
Harris
Mikva
H 7898
CONGRESSIONAL RECORDHOUSE
July 28, 1976
Milford
Randall
Steiger, Wis.
Mr. BIAGGI and Mr. RINALDO
The CHAIRMAN. Is there objection
Mills
Rees
Stephens
Mineta
changed their vote from "aye" to "no."
to the request of the gentleman from
Regula
Symms
Minish
Risenhoover
Talcott
So the amendment to the amendment
Ohio?
Mitchell, N.Y.
Roberts
Taylor, Mo.
in the nature of a substitute was agreed
There was no objection.
Moakley
Robinson
Taylor, N.C.
to.
(Mr. KINDNESS asked and was given
Moffett
Rodino
Teague
Mollohan
Rogers
Thone
The result of the vote was announced
permission to revise and extend his re-
Montgomery
Rooney
Thornton
as above recorded.
marks.)
Moore
Roush
Traxler
AMENDMENT OFFERED BY MR. KINDNESS TO THE
Mr. KINDNESS. Madam Chairman, I
Moorhead,
Rousselot
Treen
Calif.
Runnels
Ullman
AMENDMENT IN THE NATURE OF A SUBSTITUTE
think this process that has been worked
Morgan
Ruppe
Van Deerlin
OFFERED BY MR. FLOWERS
on this bill has been a very good example
Mosher
Russo
Vander Jagt
Santini
Mr. KINDNESS. Madam Chairman, I
of improving some legislation so that it
Murphy, Ill.
Vander Veen
Murphy, N.Y.
Sarasin
Vanik
offer an amendment to the amendment
really reaches the point of being, I think,
Murtha
Satterfield
Waggonner
in the nature of a substitute.
the best product that we can accomplish
Myers, Ind.
Schneebeli
Walsh
The Clerk read as follows:
in the area, with the exception of the
Myers, Pa.
Schulze
Whalen
Natcher
Sebelius
White
Amendment offered by Mr. KINDNESS to the
definition of "agency."
Neal
Seiberling
Whitehurst
amendment in the nature of a substitute of-
On page 2 of the bill, the current lan-
Nedzi
Shipley
Whitten
fered by Mr. FLOWERS: On page 2, strike lines
guage defines an agency in terms of those
Nichols
Shriver
Wilson, Bob
14-21 and insert the following in lieu thereof:
bodies called "collegial" bodies, including
Obey
Shuster
Winn
"(1) the term 'agency' means:
O'Brien
Simon
Wirth
members appointed by the President,
Pattison, N.Y.
Skubitz
Wolff
Board for International Broadcasting;
with the advice and consent of the Sen-
Pepper
Slack
Wright
Civil Aeronautics Board;
ate; but we do not really know what that
Perkins
Smith, Iowa
Wydler
Commodity Futures Trading Commission;
Pettis
Smith, Nebr.
Wylie
Consumer Product Safety Commission;
includes totally.
Pickle
Snyder
Yates
Equal Employment Opportunity Commis-
Over in the Senate, the report of the
Pressler
Spellman
Yatron
sion;
commitee included a listing of the Boards
Price
Spence
Young, Alaska
Pritchard
Staggers
Young, Fla.
Export-Import Bank of the United States
and Commissions that would be within
Quie
Stanton,
Zablocki
(Board of Directors);
the scope of coverage of the bill as it was
Railsback
J. William
Federal Communications Commission;
dealt with in that body.
Federal Election Commission;
NOES-112
It is the long list of some 40-some dif-
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation
Abzug
Goodling
Oberstar
ferent commissions and boards. I sug-
(Board of Directors);
Addabbo
Hagedorn
Ottinger
Federal Farm Credit Board within the Farm
gest that this is an occasion when we are
Ambro
Hannaford
Passman
Anderson,
Harkin
Patten, N.J.
Credit Administration;
taking an important step, but we ought
Calif.
Harrington
Patterson,
Federal Home Loan Bank Board;
to know exactly what we are doing when
Badillo
Hawkins
Calif.
Federal Maritime Commission
we do it. This amendment which I have
Baucus
Hays, Ohio
Paul
Federal Power Commission;
submitted includes the listing that was in
Bauman
Hechler, W. Va.
Pike
Federal Trade Commission;
Biaggi
Heckler, Mass.
Poage
the committee report of the other body,
Harry S. Truman Scholarship Foundation
Bingham
Hicks
Preyer
with certain exceptions which I will
Blouin
Holtzman
Quillen
(Board of Trustees);
enumerate.
Bolling
Howard
Rangel
Indian Claims Commission;
Breckinridge
Hutchinson
Richmond
Inter-American Foundation (Board of
One of the exceptions is the elimina-
Brodhead
Johnson, Calif.
Rinaldo
Directors);
tion of the Commodity Credit Corpora-
Brooks
Jordan
Roncalio
Interstate Commerce Commission;
tion from the list. The reason for the
Brown, Calif.
Kastenmeier
Rose
Legal Services Corporation (Board of Di-
Commodity Credit Corporation being
Brown, Ohio
Keys
Rosenthal
rectors; )
Burke, Calif.
Kindness
Roybal
eliminated is that, in fact, in statutory
Burton, Phillip
Koch
Ryan
Mississippi River Commission;
language, it is quite clear that it is not
Butler
Lehman
St Germain
National Commission on Libraries and
Carney
Long, La.
Sarbanes
Information Science;
really a collegial body in the same sense
Carr
Lundine
Scheuer
National Council on Educational Research;
as most of these others. As originally
Chisholm
McHugh
Schroeder
National Council on Quality in Educa-
enacted in 1948, section 2 of 15 United
Collins, III.
Maguire
Sharp
tion;
States Code, section 714, the Charter Act
Conyers
Matsunaga
Solarz
National Credit Union Board;
of the Commodity Credit Corporation
Corman
Metcalfe
Stark
Danielson
Meyner
Steed
National Homeownership Foundation
provided that the corporation was sub-
Dellums
Mezvinsky
Stokes
(Board of Directors);
ject to the general direction and control
Diggs
Miller, Calif.
Studds
National Labor Relations Board;
of its board of directors. Then it went
Drinan
Miller, Ohio
Thompson
National Library of Medicine (Board of
Eckhardt
Mink
Tsongas
Regents);
on, and in 1949, by amendment, that
Edwards, Calif.
Mitchell, Md.
Udall
National Mediation Board;
was changed so that the Commodity
Eilberg
Moorhead, Pa.
Vigorito
National Science Board of the National
Credit Corporation functioning is sub-
Fascell
Moss
Waxman
Ford, Mich.
Mottl
Weaver
Science Foundation;
ject now to the general supervision and
Fraser
Nix
Wilson, C. H.
National Transportation Safety Board;
direction of the Secretary of Agriculture.
Fuqua
Nolan
Wilson, Tex.
Nuclear Regulatory Commission;
Section 9 of the act of 1949 provides
Gibbons
Nowak
Young, Tex.
Occupational Safety and Health Review
that the management of the corporation
NOT VOTING-38
Commission;
shall be vested in the board of directors,
Overseas Private Investment Corporation
Burton, John
Karth
Sisk
(Board of Directors);
subject to general supervision and direc-
Clay
Landrum
Stanton,
Dent
Litton
Railroad Retirement Board;
tion of the Secretary. I think it is quite
James V.
Esch
Martin
Steelman
Renegotiation Board;
clear that there is a case in which we did
Evins, Tenn.
O'Hara
Steiger, Ariz.
Tennessee Valley Authority (Board of Di-
not intend to include that type of body;
Fountain
O'Neill
Stratton
rectors),
at least I would imagine that is the in-
Hansen
Peyser
Stuckey
Uniformed Services University of the
tention. But nonetheless it was in the
Hébert
Reuss
Sullivan
Health Sciences (Board of Regents);
Helstoski
Rhodes
Symington
listing in the Senate.
Hightower
Riegle
Wampler
U.S. Civil Service Commission;
Hinshaw
Roe
Wiggins
U.S. Commission on Civil Rights;
Also eliminated from the listing in the
Jones, Ala.
Rostenkowski
Young, Ga.
U.S. Foreign Claims Settlement Commis-
other body's committee report is the Fed-
Jones, Tenn.
Sikes
Zeferetti
sion;
eral Reserve Board. Because of some of
U.S. International Trade Commission;
The Clerk announced the following
the points that have been brought out
U.S. Postal Service (Board of Governors);
here in debate and discussion today, there
pairs:
and
On this vote:
is so much involved in the functioning of
U.S. Railway Association;
that Board that by its very nature ought
Mr. Hébert for, with Mr. John Burton
against.
Mr. KINDNESS (during the reading).
not to be disclosed, it would appear that
Mr. Landrum for, with Mr. Riegle against.
Madam Chairman, I ask unanimous
almost a majority of the meetings of the
consent that the amendment to the
Federal Reserve Board would be in the
Mr. O'Neill for, with Mr. Clay against.
amendment in the nature of a substi-
category where they have to be closed.
Mr. SYMMS changed his vote from
tute be considered as read and printed
I suspect that we ought to see how this
"no" to "aye."
in the RECORD.
law functions before we start applying it
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-
H 7899
in sensitive areas of that nature. The
The SPEAKER pro tempore. The
Neal
Rose
Symms
question is on the passage of the bill.
Nedzi
Rosenthal
Talcott
same is true with the Securities and Ex-
Nichols
Roush
Taylor, Mo.
change Commission, and the same is true
Ms. ABZUG. Mr. Speaker, on that I
Nix
Rousselot
Taylor, N.C.
with the Parole Board. The Parole Board
demand the yeas and nays.
Nolan
Roybal
Thompson
The yeas and nays were ordered.
Nowak
Runnels
Thone
was on the list in the other body and is
Oberstar
Ruppe
Thornton
not included in the list in this amend-
The vote was taken by electronic de-
Obey
Russo
Traxler
ment.
vice, and there were-yeas 390, nays 5,
O'Brien
Ryan
Treen
I think we really should know exactly
not voting 37, as follows:
Ottinger
St Germain
Tsongas
Passman
Santini
Udall
what we are doing when we apply this
[Roll No. 565]
Patten, N.J.
Sarasin
Ullman
bill, which will become an act, and I am
Patterson,
Sarbanes
Van Deerlin
YEAS-390
confident that it will. I am sure it has
Calif.
Satterfield
Vander Jagt
Abdnor
de la Garza
Hungate
Pattison, N.Y.
Scheuer
Vander Veen
the broadest kind of support, and I sus-
Abzug
Delaney
Hutchinson
Paul
Schneebell
Vanik
pect that we easily can and will include
Adams
Dellums
Hyde
Pepper
Schroeder
Vigorito
other bodies if this amendment is
Addabbo
Derrick
Jacobs
Perkins
Schulze
Waggonner
Alexander
Derwinski
Jarman
Pettis
Sebelius
Walsh
adopted. We will include other bodies in
Allen
Devine
Jeffords
Pickle
Seiberling
Waxman
the coverage of it as we gain some experi-
Ambro
Diggs
Jenrette
Pike
Sharp
Weaver
ence with it.
Anderson,
Dingell
Johnson, Calif.
Pressler
Shipley
Whalen
I suspect that we should do that, and
Calif.
Dodd
Johnson, Colo.
Preyer
Shriver
White
Anderson, Ill.
Downey, N.Y.
Johnson, Pa.
Price
Shuster
Whitehurst
it should be the subject of oversight for
Andrews, N.C.
Downing, Va.
Jones, N.C.
Pritchard
Simon
Whitten
the purpose of achieving that goal. We
Andrews,
Drinan
Jones, Okla.
Quie
Skubitz
Wilson, Bob
want government in the sunshine just as
N. Dak.
Duncan, Oreg.
Jordan
Quillen
Slack
Wilson, C. H.
Annunzio
Duncan, Tenn.
Kasten
Railsback
Smith, Iowa
Wilson, Tex.
broadly as we can have it, but I do be-
Archer
du Pont
Kastenmeier
Randall
Smith, Nebr.
Winn
lieve that we are venturing into the area
Armstrong
Early
Kazen
Rangel
Snyder
Wirth
Ashbrook
Eckhardt
Kelly
Rees
Solarz
Wolff
of interminable litigation with the pres-
Ashley
Edgar
Kemp
Regula
Spellman
Wright
ent language of the bill. It invites litiga-
Aspin
Edwards, Ala.
Ketchum
Richmond
Spence
Wydler
tion; it invites uncertainty, and there is
AuCoin
Edwards, Calif.
Keys
Rinaldo
Staggers
Wylie
Badillo
Eilberg
Kindness
Risenhoover
Stanton,
Yates
nothing better that we can do with the
Bafalis
Emery
Koch
Roberts
J. William
Yatron
definition of agency than to make it cer-
Baldus
English
Krebs
Robinson
Stark
Young, Alaska
tain and avoid that litigation that, in
Baucus
Erlenborn
Krueger
Rodino
Steed
Young, Fla.
other references here in the Committee
Bauman
Eshleman
LaFalce
Roe
Steiger, Wis.
Young, Tex.
Beard, R.I.
Evans, Colo.
Lagomarsino
Rogers
Stephens
Zablocki
of the Whole today we have heard, would
Beard, Tenn.
Evans, Ind.
Latta
Roncalio
Stokes
add to the burden of the courts which
Bedell
Evins, Tenn.
Leggett
Rooney
Studds
are already clogged.
Bell
Fary
Lehman
Bennett
Fascell
Lent
NAYS-5
Madam Chairman, I would urge sup-
*Bergland
Fenwick
Levitas
Burleson, Tex.
Dickinson
Teague
port of the amendment.
Bevill
Findley
Lloyd, Calif.
Collins, Tex.
Poage
Biaggi
Fish
Lloyd, Tenn.
[Ms. ABZUG addressed the Committee.
Biester
Fisher
Long, La.
NOT VOTING-37
Her remarks will appear hereafter in the
Bingham
Fithian
Long, Md.
Burton, John
Karth
Stanton,
Blanchard
Flood
Lott
Extensions of Remarks.]
Clay
Landrum
James V.
Blouin
Florio
Lujan
Dent
Litton
Steelman
The CHAIRMAN. The question is on
Boggs
Flowers
Lundine
Esch
Melcher
Steiger, Ariz.
Boland
Flynt
McClory
Fountain
O'Hara
Stratton
the amendment offered by the gentleman
Bolling
Foley
McCloskey
Hansen
O'Neill
Stuckey
from Ohio (Mr. KINDNESS) to the amend-
Bonker
Ford, Mich.
McCollister
Hébert
Peyser
Sullivan
ment in the nature of a substitute offered
Bowen
Ford, Tenn.
McCormack
Helstoski
Reuss
Symington
Brademas
Forsythe
McDade
Hightower
Rhodes
by the gentleman from Alabama (Mr.
Wampler
Breaux
Fraser
McDonald
Hinshaw
Riegle
Wiggins
FLOWERS).
Breckinridge
Frenzel
McEwen
Ichord
Rostenkowski
Young, Ga.
The amendment to the amendment in
Brinkley
Frey
McFall
Jones, Ala.
Sikes
Zeferetti
the nature of a substitute was rejected.
Brodhead
Fuqua
McHugh
Jones, Tenn.
Sisk
Brooks
Gaydos
McKay
The CHAIRMAN. If there are no fur-
Broomfield
Giaimo
McKinney
The Clerk announced the following
ther amendments, the question is on
Brown, Calif.
Gibbons
Madden
pairs:
the amendment in the nature of a sub-
Brown, Mich.
Gilman
Madigan
Brown, Ohio
Ginn
Maguire
Mr. O'Neill with Mr. Sikes.
stitute offered by the gentleman from
Broyhill
Goldwater
Mahon
Mr. Dent with Mr. Stuckey.
Alabama (Mr. FLOWERS), as amended.
Buchanan
Gonzalez
Mann
Mr. Zeferetti with Mr. Clay.
The amendment in the nature of a
Burgener
Goodling
Martin
Mr. Rostenkowski with Mr. Karth.
Burke, Calif.
Gradison
Mathis
substitute, as amended, was agreed to.
Mr. Helstoski with Mr. O'Hara.
Burke, Fla.
Grassley
Matsunaga
The CHAIRMAN. Under the rule, the
Burke, Mass.
Green
Mazzoli
Mr. Fountain with Mr. Steiger of Arizona.
Committee rises.
Burlison, Mo.
Gude
Meeds
Mr. Jones of Tennessee with Mr. Statton.
Accordingly the Committee rose; and
Burton, Phillip
Guyer
Metcalfe
Mr. John L. Burton with Mrs. Sullivan.
Butler
Hagedorn
Meyner
Mr. Landrum with Mr. Wiggins.
the Speaker pro tempore (Mr. McFALL),
Byron
Haley
Mezvinsky
Mr. Melcher with Mr. Wampler.
having assumed the chair, Mrs. BURKE
Carney
Hall, III.
Michel
Mr. Riegle with Mr. Young of Georgia.
of California, Chairman of the Commit-
Carr
Hall, Tex.
Mikva
Carter
Hamilton
Milford
Mr. Symington with Mr. Peyser.
tee of the Whole House on the State of
Cederberg
Hammer-
Miller, Calif.
Mr. Sisk with Mr. Esch.
the Union, reported that that Committee
Chappell
schmidt
Miller, Ohio
Mr. Hébert with Mr. Hansen.
having had under consideration the bill
Chisholm
Hanley
Mills
Mr. Ichord with Mr. Hightower.
Hannaford
Mineta
Mr. Jones of Alabama with Mr. James V.
(H.R., 11656) to provide that meetings
Clancy
Clausen,
Harkin
Minish
Stanton.
of Government agencies shall be open
Don H.
Harrington
Mink
Mr. Reuss with Mr. Steelman.
to the public, and for other purposes,
Clawson, Del
Harris
Mitchell, Md.
Cleveland
Harsha
Mitchell, N.Y.
pursuant to House Resolution 1207, she
Hawkins
So the bill was passed.
Cochran
Moakley
reported the bill back to the House with
Cohen
Hayes, Ind.
Moffett
The result of the vote was announced
an amendment adopted by the Commit-
Collins, Ill.
Hays, Ohio
Mollohan
as above recorded.
the of the Whole.
Conable
Hechler, W. Va.
Montgomery
Conlan
The SPEAKER pro tempore. Under the
Heckler, Mass.
Moore
A motion to reconsider was laid on the
Conte
Hefner
Moorhead,
table.
rule, the previous question is ordered.
Conyers
Heinz
Calif.
The question is on the amendment.
Corman
Henderson
Moorhead, Pa.
The SPEAKER pro tempore. Pursuant
The amendment was agreed to.
Cornell
Hicks
Morgan
to the provisions of House Resolution
Cotter
Hillis
Mosher
The SPEAKER pro tempore. The ques-
Coughlin
Holland
Moss
1207, the Committee on Government Op-
tion is on the engrossment and third
Crane
Holt
Mottl
erations is discharged from the further
reading of the bill.
D'Amours
Holtzman
Murphy, Ill.
Daniel, Dan
Horton
The bill was ordered to be engrossed
Murphy, N.Y.
consideration of the Senate bill (S. 5)
Daniel, R. W.
Howard
Murtha
to provide that meetings of Government
and read a third time, and was read the
Daniels, N.J.
Howe.
Myers, Ind.
Usird time
Danielson
Hubbard
Myers, Pa.
agencies shall be open to the public, and
Davis
Hughes
Natcher
for other purposes.
H 7900
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
July 28, 1976
The Clerk read the title of the Senate
clearly unwarranted invasion of personal
of such vote reflecting the vote of each mem-
bill.
privacy;
ber on the question. If a portion of a meeting
MOTION OFFERED BY MR. BROOKS
"(7) disclose investigatory records com-
is to be closed to the public, the agency shall,
piled for law enforcement purposes, or infor-
within one day of the vote taken pursuant to
Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Speaker, I offer a
mation which if written would be contained
paragraph (1) or (2) of this subsection, make
motion.
in such records, but only to the extent that
publicly available a full written explanation
The Clerk read as follows:
the production of such records or informa-
of its action closing the portion together
Mr. BROOKS moves to strike out all after
tion would (A) interfere with enforcement
with a list of all persons expected to attend
the enacting clause of the Senate bill S. 5
proceedings, (B) deprive a person of a right
the meeting and their affiliation.
and to insert in lieu thereof the provisions
to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication,
"(4) Any agency, a majority of whose meet-
of H.R. 11656, as passed, as follows:
(C) constitute an unwarranted invasion of
ings may properly be closed to the public
personal privacy, (D) disclose the identity of
pursuant to paragraph (4), (8), (9) (A), or
That this Act may cited as the "Government
a confidential source and, in the case of a
(10) of subsection (c), or any combination
in the Sunshine Act".
record compiled by a criminal law enforce-
thereof, may provide by regulation for the
DECLARATION OF POLICY
ment authority in the course of a criminal
closing of such meetings or portions thereof
SEC. 2. It is hereby declared to be the pol-
investigation, or by an agency conducting a
in the event that a majority of the members
icy of the United States that the public is
lawful national security intelligence investi-
of the agency votes by recorded vote at the
entitled to the fullest practicable informa-
gation, confidential information furnished
beginning of such meeting, or portion
tion regarding the decisionmaking processes
only by the confidental source, (E) disclose
thereof, to close the exempt portion or por-
of the Federal Government. It is the purpose
investigative techniques and procedures, or
tions of the meeting, and a copy of such
of this Act to provide the public with such
(F) endanger the life or physical safety of law
vote, reflecting the vote of each member on
information while protecting the rights of
enforcement personnel;
the question, is made available to the public.
individuals and the ability of the Govern-
"(8) disclose information contained in or
The provisions of paragraphs (1), (2), and
ment to carry out its responsibilities.
related to examination, operating, or con-
(3) of this subsection and subsection (e)
dition reports prepared by, on behalf of, or
OPEN MEETINGS
shall not apply to any portion of a meeting
for the use of an agency responsible for the
to which such regulations apply: Provided,
SEC. 3. (a) Title 5, United States Code, is
regulation or supervision of financial in-
That the agency shall, except to the extent
amended by adding after section 552a the
stitutions;
that such information is exempt from dis-
following new section:
"(9) disclose information the premature
closure under the provisions of subsection
552. Open meetings
disclosure of which would-
(c), provide the public with public an-
"(a) For purposes of this section-
"(A) in the case of an agency which regu-
nouncement of the date, place, and subject
"(1) the term 'agency' means the Federal
lates currencies, securities, commodities, or
matter of the meeting and each portion
Election Commission and any agency, as de-
financial institutions, be likely to (1) lead to
thereof at the earliest practicable time and
fined in section 552(e) of this title, headed
significant financial speculation, or (ii) sig-
in no case later than the commencement of
by a collegial body composed of two or more
nificantly endanger the stability of any finan-
the meeting or portion in question.
individual members, a majority of whom are
cial institution; or
"(e) In the case of each meeting, the agency
appointed to such position by the President
"(B) in the case of any agency, be likely to
shall make public announcement, at least one
with the advice and consent of the Senate,
significantly frustrate implementation of a
week before the meeting, of the date, place,
and includes any subdivision thereof author-
proposed agency action, except that this sub-
and subject matter of the meeting, whether
ized to act on behalf of the agency;
paragraph shall not apply in any instance
it is to be open or closed to the public, and
"(2) the term 'meeting' means a gathering
after the content or nature of the proposed
the name and phone number of the official
to jointly conduct or dispose of agency busi-
agency action already has been disclosed to
designated by the agency to respond to re-
ness by two or more, but at least the number
the public by the agency, or unless the
quests for information about the meeting.
of individual agency members required to
agency is required by law to make such dis-
Such announcement shall be made unless a
take action on behalf of the agency, but does
closure prior to taking final agency action
majority of the members of the agency deter-
not include gatherings required or permitted
on such proposal, or after the agency pub-
mines by a recorded vote that agency busi-
by subsection (d); and
lishes or serves a substantive rule pursuant
ness requires that such meeting be called at
"(3) the term 'member' means an individ-
to section 553(d) of this title; or
an earlier date, in which case the agency shall
ual who belongs to a collegial body heading
"(10) specifically concern the agency's is-
make public announcement of the date,
an agency.
suance of a subpena, or the agency's partici-
place, and subject matter of such meeting,
"(b) (1) Members as described in subsec-
pation in a civil action or proceeding, an
and whether open or closed to the public, at
tion (a) (2) shall not jointly conduct or dis-
action in a foreign court or international tri-
the earliest practicable time and in no case
pose of agency business without complying
bunal, or an arbitration, or the initiation,
later than the commencement of the meeting
with subsections (b) through (g).
conduct, or disposition by the agency of a
or portion in question. The time, place, or
"(1) Except as provided in subsection (c),
particular case of formal agency adjudica-
subject matter of a meeting, or the deter-
every portion of every meeting of an agency
tion pursuant to the procedures in section
mination of the agency to open or close a
shall be open to public observation.
554 of this title or otherwise involving a de-
meeting, or portion of a meeting, to the pub-
"(c) Except in a case where the agency
termination on the record after opportunity
lic, may be changed following the public an-
finds that the public interest requires other-
for a hearing.
nouncement required by this paragraph only
wise, subsection (b) shall not apply to any
"(d) (1) Action under subsection (c) to
if (1) a majority of the entire membership
portion of an agency meeting and the re-
close a portion or portions of an agency
of the agency determines by a recorded vote
quirements of subsections (d) and (e) shall
meeting shall be taken only when a majority
that agency business so requires and that
not apply to any information pertaining to
of the entire membership of the agency votes
no earlier announcement of the change was
such meeting otherwise required by this sec-
to take such action. A separate vote of the
possible, and (2) the agency publicly an-
tion to be disclosed to the public, where the
agency members shall be taken with respect
nounces such change and the vote of each
agency properly determines that such portion
to each agency meeting a portion or portions
member upon such change at the earliest
or portions of its meetings or the disclosure
of which are proposed to be closed to the
practicable time and in no case later than
of such information is likely to-
public pursuant to subsection (c) A single
the commencement of the meeting or portion
"(1) disclose matters (A) specifically au-
vote may be taken with respect to a series of
in question.
thorized under criteria established by an
portions of meetings which are proposed to
"(f) (1) For every meeting closed pursuant
Executive order to be kept secret in the in-
be closed to the public, or with respect to any
to paragraphs (1) through (10) of subsec-
terests of national defense or foreign policy
information concerning such series, so long
tion (c), the General Counsel or chief legal
and (B) in fact properly classified pursuant
as each portion of a meeting in such series
officer of the agency shall publicly certify
to such Executive order;
involves the same particular matters, and is
that, in his opinion, the meeting may be
"(2) relate solely to the internal person-
scheduled to be held no more than thirty
closed to the public and shall state the rele-
nel rules and practices of an agency;
days after the initial portion of a meeting in
vant exemptive provision. A copy of such
"(3) disclose matters specifically exempted
such series. The vote of each agency member
certification, together with a statement from
from disclosure by statute (other than sec-
participating in such vote shall be recorded
the presiding officer of the meeting setting
tion 552 of this title) Provided, That such
and no proxies shall be allowed.
forth the date, time and place of the meeting,
statute (A) requires that the matters be
"(2) Whenever any person whose interests
the persons present, the generic subject mat-
withheld from the public, or (B) establishes
may be directly affected by a portion of a
ter of the discussion at the meeting, and the
particular criteria for withholding or refers
meeting requests that the agency close such
actions taken, shall be incorporated into
to particular types of matters to be withheld;
portion to the public for any of the reasons
minutes retained by the agency.
"(4) disclose trade secrets and commercial
referred to in paragraph (5), (6), or (7) of
"(2) Written minutes shall be made of any
or financial information obtained from a per-
subsection (c), the agency, upon request of
agency meeting, or portion thereof, which is
son and privileged or confidential;
any one of its members, shall vote by recorded
open to the public. The agency shall make
"(5) involve accusing any person of a
vote whether to close such meeting.
such minutes promptly available to the pub-
crime, or formally censuring any person;
(3) Within one day of any vote taken
lic in a location easily accessible to the pub-
"(6) disclose information of a personal
pursuant to paragraph (1) or (2), the agency
lic, and shall maintain such minutes for a
nature where disclosure would constitute a
shall make publicly available a written copy
period of at least two years after such meet-
1976
July 28, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
H 7901
ing. Copies of such minutes shall be fur-
to Congress regarding its compliance with
ests of justice and the policy of the underly-
1 mem-
neeting
nished to any person at no greater than the-
such requirements, including a tabulation
ing statutes, require the person or party to
actual cost of duplication thereof or, if in
of the total number of agency meetings open
show cause why his claim or interest in the
y shall,
the public interest, at no cost.
to the public, the total number of meetings
proceeding should not be dismissed, denied,
uant to
1, make
"(g) Each agency subject to the require-
closed to the public, the reasons for closing
disregarded, or otherwise adversely affected
anation
ments of this section shall, within 180 days
such meetings, and a description of any
on account of such violation; and
after the date of enactment of this section,
litigation brought against the agency under
"(E) the prohibitions of this subsection
ogether
following consultation with the Office of the
this section, including any costs assessed
shall apply beginning at such time as the
attend
Chairman of the Administrative Conference
against the agency in such litigation
agency may designate, but in no case shall
of the United States and published notice
(whether or not paid by the agency).
they begin to apply later than the time at
e meet-
"(k) Except as specifically provided in this
which a proceeding is noticed for hearing
public
in the Federal Register of at least thirty days
(A), or
and opportunity for written comment by any
section, nothing herein expands or limits
unless the person responsible for the com-
persons, promulgate regulations to implement
the present rights of any person under sec-
munication has knowledge that it will be
ination
for the
the requirements of subsections (b) through
tion 552 of this title, except thatt he provi-
noticed, in which case the prohibitions shall
(f) of this section. Any person may bring a
sions of this Act shall govern in the case
apply beginning at the time of his acquisi-
thereof
proceeding in the United States District
of any request made pursuant to such sec-
tion of such knowledge.
embers
at the
Court for the District of Columbia to require
tion to copy or inspect the minutes described
"(2) This section does not constitute au-
portion
an agency to prómulgate such regulations if
in subsection (f) of this section. The re-
thority to withhold information from Con-
or por-
such agency has not promulgated such regu-
quirements of chapter 33 of title 44, United
gress.".
lations within the time period specified
States Code, shall not apply to the minutes
(b) Section 551 of title 5, United States
of such
herein. Subject to any limitations of time
described in subsection (f) of this section.
Code, is amended—
nber on
therefor provided by law, any person may
"(1) This section does not constitute au-
(1) by striking out "and" at the end of
public.
bring a proceeding in the United States
thority to withhold any information from
paragraph (12);
2), and
Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia
Congress, and does not authorize the closing
(2) by striking out the "act." at the end
ion (e)
meeting
to set aside agency regulations issued pur-
of any agency meeting or portion thereof
of paragraph (13) and inserting in lieu
suant to this subsection that are not in
otherwise required by law to be open.
thereof "act; and"; and
rovided,
accord with the requirements of subsections
"(m) Nothing in this section authorizes
(3) by adding at the end thereof the fol-
extent
any agency to withhold from any individual
lowing new paragraph:
om dis-
(b) through (f) of this section, and to re-
any record, including minutes required by
"(14) 'ex parte communication' means an
osection
quire the promulgation of regulations that
are in accord with such subsections.
this Act, which is otherwise accessible to such
oral or written communication not on the
lic an-
"(h) The district courts of the United
individual under section 552a of this title.
public record with respect to which reason-
subject
States have jurisdiction to enforce the re-
"(n) In the event that any meeting is
able prior notice to all parties is not given;
portion
quirements of subsections (b) through (f)
subject to the provisions of the Federal Ad-
but it shall not include requests for infor-
me and
mation on or status reports relative to any
of this section. Such actions may be brought
visory Committee Act as well as the pro-
ment of
visions of this section, the provisions of this
matter or proceeding covered by this sub-
by any person against an agency prior to, or
within sixty days after, the meeting out of
section shall govern.".
chapter.".
e agency
(b) The chapter analysis of chapter 5 of
(c) Section 556(d) of title 5, United States
east one
which the violation of this section arises,
except that if public announcement of such
title 5, United States Code, is amended by
Code, is amended by inserting between the
e, place,
meeting is not initially provided by the
inserting:
third and fourth sentences thereof the fol-
whether
"552b. Open meetings."
lowing new sentence: "The agency may, to
olic, and
agency in accordance with the requirements
the extent consistent with the interests of
e official
of this section, such action may be instituted
immediately below:
justice and the policy of the underlying stat-
d to re-
pursuant to this section at any time prior
"552a. Records about individuals.".
utes administered by the agency, consider a
meeting.
to sixty days after any public announcement
of such meeting. Such actions may be
EX PARTE COMMUNICATIONS
violation of section 557(d) of this title suffi-
unless a
brought in the district court of the United
SEC. 4. (a) Section 557 of title 5, United
cient grounds for a decision adverse to a
by deter-
States for the district in which the agency
States Code, is amended by adding at the
person or party who has committed such vio-
cy busi-
lation or caused such violation to occur.".
meeting is held, or in the District Court for
end thereof the following new subsection:
called at
ncy shall
the District of Columbia, or where the agency
"(d) (1) In any agency proceeding which
CONFORMING AMENDMENTS
in question has its headquarters. In such
is subject to subsection (a) of this section,
SEC. 5. (a) Section 410(b) (1) of title 39,
1e date,
actions a defendant shall serve his answer
except to the extent required for the dis-
United States Code, is amended by inserting
meeting,
within twenty days after the service of the
position of ex parte matters as authorized
after "Section 552 (public information),"
iblic, at
complaint, but such time may be extended
by law-
the words "section 552a (records about in-
no case
by the court for up to twenty additional
"(A) no interested person outside the
dividuals), section 552b (open meetings)
meeting
days upon a showing of good cause therefor.
agency shall make or cause to be made to
(b) Section 552 (3) of title 5, United
place, or
The burden is on the defendant to sustain
any member of the body comprising the
States Code, is amended to read as follows:
e deter-
his action. In deciding such cases the court
agency, administrative law judge, or other
"(3) specifically exempted from disclo-
close a
may examine in camera any portion of the
employee who is or may reasonably be ex-
sure by statute (other than Section 552b of
the pub-
minutes of a meeting closed to the public,
pected to be involved in the decisional process
this title) Provided, That such statute (A)
iblic an-
and may take such additional evidence as
of the proceeding, an ex parte communication
requires that the matters be withheld from
aph only
it deems necessary. The court, having due
relative to the merits of the proceeding;
the public, or (B) establishes particular cri-
nbership
regard for orderly administration and the
"(B) no member of the body comprising
teria for withholding or refers to particular
ded vote
public interest, as well as the interests of
the agency, administrative law judge, or
types of matters to be withheld;"; and
and that
the party, may grant such equitable relief
other employee who is or may reasonably be
(c) Subsection (d) of section 10 of the
inge was
R.S It deems appropriate, including granting
expected to be involved in the decisional
Federal Advisory Committee Act is amended
licly an-
an injunction against future violations of
process of the proceeding, shall make or cause
by striking out the first sentence and insert-
of each
this section, or ordering the agency to make
to be made to any interested person outside
ing in lieu thereof the following: "Subsec-
earliest
available to the public such portion of the
the agency an ex parte communication rela-
tions (a) (1) and (a) (3) of this section shall
ter than
minutes of a meeting as is not authorized
tive to the merits of the proceeding;
not apply to any portion of an advisory com-
portion
to be withheld under subsection (c) of this
"(C) a member of the body comprising
mittee meeting where the President, or the
section. Nothing in this section confers
the agency, administrative law judge, or
head of the agency to which the advisory
pursuant
Jurisdiction on any district court acting
other employee who is or may reasonably be
committee reports, determines that such
subsec-
solely under this subsection to set aside,
expected to be involved in the decisional
portion of such meeting may be closed to
lief legal
enjoin or invalidate any agency action taken
process of such proceeding who receives, or
the public in accordance with subsection (c)
y certify
or discussed at an agency meeting out of
who .makes or causes to be made, a com-
of section 552b of title 5, United States
may be
which the violation of this section arose.
munication prohibited by this subsection
Code.".
the rele-
party reasonable attorney fees and other any
(1) The court may assess against
shall place on the public record of the
EFFECTIVE DATE
of such
ent from
litigation costs reasonably incurred by
proceeding:
SEC. 6. (a) Except as provided in subsec-
hn setting
other party who substantially prevails any in
"(i) all such written communications;
tion (b) of this section, the provisions of
(ii) memoranda stating the substance of
this Act shall take effect one hundred and
meeting,
any Action brought in accordance with the
provisions of subsection (g) or (h) of this
all such oral communications; and
eighty days after the date of its enactment
|ect mat-
section, except that costs may be assessed
"(iii) all written responses, and memo-
(b) Subsection (g) of section 552b of title
and the
against the plaintiff only where the court
randa stating the substance of all oral re-
5, United States Code, as added by section
ted into
And that the suit was initiated by the
sponses, to the materials described in clauses
ie of any
Mainum primarily for frivolous or dilatory
(i) and (ii) of this subparagraph;
3(a) of this Act, shall take effect upon
enactment.
which is
In the case of assessment of costs
"(D) in the event of a communication
prohibited by this subsection and made or
The motion was agreed to.
all make
resided an agency. the costs may be
- by the court against the United States. as-
caused to be made by a party or interested
The Senate bill was ordered to be read
the pub-
the pub-
"in Each agency subject to the require-
person, the agency, administrative law judge,
a third time, was read the third time
English of this section shall annually report
or other employee presiding at the hearing
and passed, and a motion to reconsider
tes for 8
may. to the extent consistent with the inter-
was laid on the table.
ch meet-
7902
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD-HOUSE
July 28, 1976
A similar House bill (H.R. 11656) was
agreed to recommend and do recommend to
vided in the amendment of the Senate num-
laid on the table.
their respective Houses as follows:
bered 6. The remaining reduction of $8,600,-
That the Senate recede from its amend-
000 involved the procurement of medium-
ments numbered 8 and 9.
range surveillance aircraft.
GENERAL LEAVE
That the House recede from its disagree-
Amendment No. 5: deletes the specific
Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Speaker, I ask
ment to the amendments of the Senate num-
procurement of six long-range surveillance
unanimous consent that all Members
bered 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7, and agree to
aircraft and five short-range recovery heli-
the same.
copters, as proposed by the House.
may have 5 legislative days in which to
That the House recede from its disagree-
PROCUREMENT OF VESSELS AND/OR AIRCRAFT
revise and extend their remarks and to
ment to the amendment of the Senate num-
Amendment No. 6: authorizes $100,000,000
include extraneous matter, on H.R. 11656,
bered 10 and agree to the same with an
for the procurement of vessels and/or air-
the bill just passed.
amendment as follows: Strike out all after
craft to carry out Coast Guard missions,
The SPEAKER pro tempore. Is there
the first sentence of the amendment, and
including fishery law enforcement, as pro-
objection to the request of the gentleman
the Senate agree to the same.
posed by the Senate. This authorization re-
from Texas?
That the House recede from its disagree-
places $49,000,000 of the reduction in
ment of the Senate amendment numbered
Amendment No. 1, and $59,600,000 involved
There was no objection.
11 and agree to the same with an amend-
in the reduction in Amendment No. 4, re-
ment as follows: Insert the following clarify-
flecting the procurement costs of the two
ing language: (1) in lines 4 and 5 of the
high/medium endurance cutters deleted by
MESSAGE FROM THE SENATE
amendment, after the word "specific", and
Amendment No. 2, and the six long-range
A message from the Senate by Mr.
before the word "vessels", insert the word
surveillance aircraft and five short-range re-
Sparrow, one of its clerks, announced
"cargo-carrying"; (2) in line 15 of the
covery helicopters, deleted by Amendment
that the Senate had passed without
amendment, after the word "permit", insert
No. 5. The conferees note that no final rec-
the words "issued pursuant to subsection
ommendation has been received by the Con-
amendment bills of the House of the fol-
lowing titles:
(a)"; and (3) in line 17 of the amendment,
gress delineating the exact mix of aircraft
after the word "Alaska", insert the words
and vessels-needed for the additional duties
H.R. 1558. An act for the relief of Dr. Ger-
"and only", and the Senate agree to the
imposed upon the Coast Guard through its
not M. R. Winkler; and
same.
enforcement responsibilities under Public
H.R. 1762. An act for the relief of Mrs. Les-
LEONOR K. SULLIVAN,
Law 94-265, which extended United States
sie Edwards.
THOMAS L. ASHLEY,
jurisdiction over coastal fisheries to 200
MARIO BIAGGI,
miles from the coastline.
The message also announced that the
THOMAS N. DOWNING,
PROCUREMENT OF VESSELS WITH ICEBREAKING
Senate agrees to the report of the com-
PAUL G. ROGERS,
CAPABILITY
mittee of conference on the disagreeing
PHILIP E. RUPPE,
Amendment No. 7: authorizes $50,000,000
votes of the two Houses on the amend-
PIERRE S. DU PONT,
for the procurement of Lvessels with icebreak-
ments of the Senate to the bill (H.R.
Managers on the Part of the House.
ing capability, to be used on the Great Lakes,
14233) entitled "An act making appro-
WARREN G. MAGNUSON,
as proposed by the Senate. The conferees
priations for the Department of Housing
RUSSELL B. LONG,
note that this is an authorization in general
and Urban Development, and for sundry
JOHN A. DURKIN,
terms for the specific authorization, proposed
independent executive agencies, boards,
TED STEVENS,
by the House, of $52,000,000 deleted by
J. GLENN BEALL, JR.,
Amendment No. 1, for the procurement of
bureaus, commissions; corporations, and
Managers on the Part of the Senate.
four small domestic icebreakers, deleted by
offices for the fiscal year ending Septem-
Amendment No. 3.
ber 30, 1977, and for other purposes."
JOINT EXPLANATORY STATEMENT OF THE
The message also announced that the
ANNUAL AUTHORIZATION
COMMITTEE OF CONFERENCE
Senate agreed to the House amendments
Amendment No. 8: would have deleted the
The managers on the part of the House
to the Senate amendments numbered 1,
and the Senate at the conference on the dis-
House provision that, after fiscal year 1977,
no funds may be appropriated to or for the
2, 35, and 37 to the foregoing bill.
agreeing votes of the two Houses on the
amendments of the Senate to the bill (H.R.
use of the Coast Guard for (1) operation and
The message also announced that the
Senate had passed a bill of the following
11670), to authorize appropriations for the
maintenance; (2) acquisition, construction,
rebuilding, or improvement of aids to navi-
title, in which the concurrence of the
use of the Coast Guard for the procurement
of vessels and aircraft and construction of
gation, shore or offshore establishments, ves-
House is requested:
shore and offshore establishments, to author-
sels or aircraft, or equipment related thereto;
S. 2212. An act to amend the Omnibus
ize for the Coast Guard a year-end strength
(3) alteration of obstructive bridges; or (4)
Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968,
for active duty personnel, to authorize for
research, development, tests, or evaluation
as amended, and for other purposes.
the Coast Guard average military student
related to any of the above, unless the appro-
priation of such funds has been authorized
loads, and for other purposes, submit the
following joint statement to the House and
by legislation enacted after December 31,
1976.
CONFERENCE REPORT ON H.R. 11670,
the Senate in explanation of the effect of the
COAST GUARD AUTHORIZATION
action agreed upon by the managers and
Amendment No. 9: This technical amend-
FOR FISCAL YEAR 1977
recommended in the accompanying confer-
ment, renumbering sections in the bill, is re-
ence report.
latd to Amendment No. 8.
Mr. BIAGGI (on behalf of Mrs. SUL-
PROCUREMENT OF VESSELS
ENFORCEMENT OF THE FEDERAL BOAT SAFETY
LIVAN) filed the following conference re-
Amendment No. 1: authorizes $86,168,000
ACT OF 1971
port and statement on the bill (H.R.
for the procurement of vessels, as proposed
Amendment No. 10: adds a new section to
11670) to authorize appropriations for
by the Senate, instead of $187,186,000, as
the bill, which would prohibit funds, author-
the use of the Coast Guard for the pro-
proposed by the House. This reduction in
ized for the operation or maintenance of the
curement of vessels and aircraft and con-
authorization was, in large part, replaced by
Coast Guard, from being used for enforce-
struction of shore and offshore estab-
the new authorizations contained in the
ment of the Federal Boat Safety Act of 1971
amendments of the Senate numbered 6 and 7.
lishments, to authorize for the Coast
(46 U.S.C. 1451 et seq.), on Lake Winnipesau-
Amendment No. 2: authorizes the procure-
kee and Lake Winnisquam, their intercon-
Guard a yearend strength for active duty
ment of two high/medium endurance cutters,
necting waterways, or the Merrimack River
personnel, to authorize for the Coast
as proposed by the Senate, instead of four
in the State of New Hampshire during fiscal
Guard average military student loads,
high/medium endurance cutters, as proposed
year 1977, or while the question of Coast
and for other purposes:
by the House.
Guard jurisdiction over such Lakes or water-
Amendment No. 3: deletes the authoriza-
ways is before a Federal or State court, and
CONFERENCE REPORT (H. REPT. No. 94-1374)
tion for the procurement of four small do-
further provides that nothing therein shall
The committee on conference on the dis-
mestic icebreakers, as proposed by the House.
(1) prevent or limit the distribution of funds
agreeing votes of the two Houses on the
to the State of New Hampshire under the
amendments of the Senate to the bill (H.R.
PROCUREMENT OF AIRCRAFT
Federal Boat Safety Act, or (2) limit the
11670), to authorize appropriations for the
Amendment No. 4: authorizes $24,300,000
authority or responsibility of the Coast
use of the Coast Guard for the procurement
for the procurement of aircraft, as proposed
Guard to assist in search and rescue opera-
of vessels and aircraft and construction of
by the Senate, instead of $92,500,000, as
tions in the State of New Hampshire. As
shore and offshore establishments, to au-
proposed by the House. Of the total reduc-
agreed upon by the conference, the amend-
thorize for the Coast Guard a yearend
tion of $68,200,000, $59,600,000 involved air-
ment strikes the second and third sentences
strength for active duty. personnel, to au-
craft for the enhancement of Coast Guard
from the amendment of the Senate numbered
thorize for the Coast Guard average military
law enforcement capability relating to Pub-
10, leaving the first sentence intact. How-
student loads, and for other purposes, hav-
lic Law 94-265. That part of the reduction
ever, the conferees wish to make it clear that
ing met, after full and free conference, have
was replaced by the new authorization pro-
the amendment, as agreed upon, is not to be
July 29, 1976
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD Extensions of Remarks
4175
on I.R.S. collection of delinquent taxes,
closed business, an agency could keep all
curities and Exchange Commission, and
and on medicare administrative costs.
of its meetings from being made open to
the Commodity Credit Corporation. It
The exact time and place of those hear-
the public. The cost of enforcing the
seems to me that if we are going to have
ings will be announced later.
transcript requirement is not enough to
open government, government in the
justify denying the people information
sunshine, there is no reason why we
that is rightfully theirs.
should leave these agencies in the dark-
GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE
I believe that if we can resist attempts
ness.
ACT
to weaken the bill, the Sunshine Act that
Mr. FLOWERS. Madam Chairman,
results will be an outstanding legislative
will the gentlewoman yield?
SPEECH OF
accomplishment. Especially since the
Ms. ABZUG. I yield to the gentleman
HON. RICHARD L. OTTINGER
Watergate crisis, people have withdrawn
from Alabama.
from and become distrustful of their
Mr. FLOWERS. I thank the gentle-
OF NEW YORK
Government. Government secrecy can
woman for yielding.
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
only encourage distrust. Effective citizen
-I want to express my complete ap-
Wednesday, July 28, 1976
participation in Government affairs is
proval of everything the gentlewoman
The House in Committee of the Whole
essential in a democracy, and for people
has said. This bill has been amended to
House on the State of the Union had under
to participate effectively, they must be
where it is a much more modest proposal
consideration the bill (H.R. 11656) to provide
informed of what goes on within the
than it was in the first instance, and I
that meetings of Government agencies shall
Government. In this our Bicentennial
would think that even the Federal Re-
be open to the public, and for other pur-
Year, let us make sure that the people's
serve Board might want to be included
poses.
Government is in fact the people's Gov-
under this bill. The general definition is
Mr. OTTINGER. Madam Chairman,
ernment. Let us reestablish the principle
absolutely to be preferred for all of the
by passing a Sunshine Act, we have the
of openness in the affairs of the Federal
reasons that the gentlewoman recited,
rare opportunity not only to help relieve
Government.
and I wholeheartedly agree with her
public criticism about a removed, secre-
position.
tive government, but also to reaffirm the
Mr. FASCELL Madam Chairman, will
principles on which this great Nation was
the gentlewoman yield?
GOVERNMENT IN THE SUNSHINE
founded 200 years ago. One of the main
Ms. ABZUG. I yield to the gentleman
ACT-II
tenets of our Government is that it exists
from Florida.
"for the people." By opening up govern-
Mr. FASCELL. I thank the gentle-
mental processes to the scrutiny of the
SPEECH OF
woman for yielding.
American public, we can tear down the
HON. BELLA S. ABZUG
I agree with the gentleman. The gen-
wall of bureaucratic secrecy and help in-
eral provisions of the bill are workable.
OF NEW YORK
sure that the Government does indeed
We ought to go along with the bill and
exist "for the people."
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
turn down this amendment.
The concept behind the Government
Wednesday, July 28, 1976
in the Sunshine Act, that of opening
The House in Committee of the Whole
"SUNSHINE"
meetings of Federal agencies to the pub-
House on the State of the Union had under
lic, represents a large step toward re-
consideration the bill (H.R. 11656) to provide
storing the public's confidence in its
that meetings of Government agencies shall
HON. BILL FRENZEL
Government institutions. The Govern-
be open to the public, and for other purposes.
OF MINNESOTA
ment Information and Individual Rights
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
Subcommittee hearings provided us with
move to strike the last word.
a clear picture of how necessary a sun-
(Ms. ABZUG asked and was given per-
Thursday, July 29, 1976
shine law is. At those hearings, David
mission to revise and extend her re-
Mr. FRENZEL. Mr. Speaker, yester-
Cohen, president of Common Cause,
marks.)
day I was pleased to vote for the "Gov-
said:
Ms. ABZUG. Madam Chairman, I rise
ernment in the sunshine bill," because its
For too long secrecy, mystery, remoteness
in opposition to the amendment. Again,
worst flaws had been cured by amend-
have dominated government practices at all
I want to point out to this body that all
ment.
levels and in all branches. Let's have our
four House committees and subcommit-
The sunshine bill is a logical follow-
leaders level with us, tell us what's going on,
tees considered this bill, and we all re-
up to previous actions taken to open up
enable us to understand government deci-
sions. Let's act on the recognition that gov-
jected this particular amendment. I think
day-to-day Federal operations to public
ernment belongs to its citizens and not a
we should follow suit here. The bill as we
scrutiny. In 1972, we opened up the meet-
variety of special interests or public officials.
have reported it contains a simple and
ings of executive branch advisory com-
entirely clear definition of a public
mittees. In 1973 House Resolution 259
As it now stands, the bill could use an
agency, namely any agency subject to
pried open some of our own processes;
improvement. The decision to drop state-
the Freedom of Information Act and
1974 saw significant amendments to the
ments of the reasons and statutory au-
"headed by a collegial body composed of
Freedom of Information Act; and 1975
thority for transcript deletions furthers
two or more individual members, a ma-
was the year in which Senate commit-
government secrecy and represents a re-
jority of whom are appointed to such
tees and conference committees began to
gression from the bill's original inten-
positions by the President with the ad-
open.
tions. People should be able to know why
vice and consent of the Senate."
The bill passed yesterday was an im-
they are prevented from having infor-
This is the same approach that the
portant reaffirmation of our commitment
mation about agency proceedings. The
Congress has used in the Administrative
to the principle of open government.
Government Operations Committee's
Procedure Act, which has been in exist-
Three important amendments were
original version of this provision prop-
ence since 1946, the Freedom of Infor-
adopted to improve the bill yesterday.
erly balanced the need to keep certain
mation Act, and the Privacy Act of 1974.
The amendment deleting the verbatim
matters secret against the people's right
It has been the subject of relatively little
transcript requirement-a requirement
to know.
litigation, and it has the advantage of
not included in any State's sunshine law,
There have been other attempts to
not having to be amended each time an
and not included in many of our own
weaken the bill. The movement to drop
agency's name is changed or a new
committees' rules-was necessary to pro-
the verbatim transcript requirement
agency is established on an agency is
tect free exchanges of ideas and discus-
must be defeated, as the change would
disposed of.
sions of national strategies in agencies
constitute a further diminution of the
It has been demonstrated to be emi-
like the Federal Reserve, the Securities
people's right to know. During the course
nently workable, and it should be re-
and Exchange Commission, and the Fed-
of legitimately closed meetings, there will
tained.
eral Trade Commission.
occur discussion that would normally be
I want to point out to the Members
The amendment redefining a "meet-
made available to the public, but will not
that this amendment exempts from the
ing" will avoid a fuzziness that would in-
if the transcript requirement is dropped.
operation of this act the Federal Re-
vite unnecessary legal action, and make
By purporting to discuss any legitimately
serve Board, the Parole Board, the Se-
the bill more workable.
E 4176
CONGRESSIONAL RECORD- of Remarks
July 29, 1976
In general, the sunshine bill is a useful
a medium-priced house; however, only
step forward in opening up the processes
one-fifth of the families in the country
the elderly and handicapped. But HUD's
of government. There will undoubted-
had this much income.
orientation is towards the urban areas
ly be some problems which can be re-
More people, because of their low in-
and it does not have the personnel or
solved by future amendments, but the
comes, must now rent instead of buy.
background to adequately deal with
rural problems.
bill, as it passed the House, is a good one.
Renting families are finding that the
Hopefully, the Senate will not, in its
amount of money they spend for rent is
NATIONAL HOUSING PRODUCTION
normally excessive enthusiasm, overdec-
constantly increasing. In 1960, accord-
We in Montana have a special interest
orate the bill. It is important to bring it
ing to the Census of Housing, the median
in sound rural housing programs be-
into operation as soon as possible, and
portion of income spent on rent was in
cause of the State's wood products in-
Senate overexuberance is likely to cause
the 15 to 19 percent range. In 1973, the
dustry. Essential to our economic recov-
delay.
proportions had risen to 20 to 24 percent.
ery is a healthy nationwide construction
While we bask in somebody else's sun-
Spiraling inflation in rental costs is
industry which uses our forest products.
shine, it is well to remember that the
due to increases in the cost of mainte-
Yet, the Federal Government's respon-
House record for openness is still poor.
nance, construction, and mortgage costs,
sibility to accelerate recovery of the
We still have no "verbatim record"
and most importantly, rising utility
housing and construction industry is not
in the House. Our CONGRESSIONAL RECORD
charges. The housing prospects of all
yet fulfilled, as many jobless Montanans
is an exercise in "It might have been."
but the wealthiest Americans have been
can attest.
Our committees do not provide public ac-
eroded.
As table I indicates this trend is in
cess to verbatim transcripts. Our demo-
RURAL HOUSING POLICY
part attributable to the fact that the
crat "King Caucus" has no transcripts at
Our Nation needs a comprehensive
number of total private housing starts
all. A bill to provide TV and radio cov-
rural housing program. Rural areas have
in the United States dropped from
erage of House floor proceedings is lan-
one-third of the Nation's population but
2,481,000 units in January of 1973 to
gushing in the Rules Committee, a victim
nearly two-thirds of its substandard
1,415,000 units in May of 1976 causing a
of leadership pressure. The bill to im-
housing. This higher incidence of poor
lag in the housing construction industry.
prove disclosure by lobbyists seems to be
housing can be attributed to lower in-
The number of private one family hous-
making no progress.
comes, less credit, and fewer institutions
ing starts also dropped by nearly 400,000
While we are patting ourselves on the
to deliver housing. There are fewer large
from 1.43 million units in January of
back for letting sunshine into other folks'
builders in rural areas who can lower
1973 to 1.06 million units in May of 1976.
business, we ought to try a little of our
costs through constructing a high volume
own.
of units. Also, it is difficult for HUD and
TABLE 1.-TOTAL PRIVATE HOUSING STARTS: HOUSING
FmHA to administer their programs over
UNITS, PRIVATE, I-FAMILY
the wide distances that must be traveled
STATEMENT ON HOUSING
In thousands of units]
thus reducing the effectiveness of their
programs.
Total
Private
HON. MAX S. BAUCUS
Ever since the 1949 National Housing
private
single
Act, the Federal Government presumably
housing
family
OF MONTANA
Date
starts
units
has been committed to improving the
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
housing situation in the United States.
Thursday, July 29, 1976
January 1973
Both HUD and FmHA were set up to
2,431
1,431
February 1973
2,289
1,341
Mr. BAUCUS. Mr. Speaker, I would
assist people in securing homes. Though
March 1973
2,365
1,237
each of these agencies has rural housing
April 1973
2,084
1,216
like today to address a serious problem
May 1973
2,266
1,220
that has been one of my major concerns
programs, there remains a marked lack
June 1973
2,067
1,106
of emphasis toward meeting rural hous-
July 1973
2,123
1,178
since I came to Congress 18 months ago.
August 1973
2,051
1,106
That is the overwhelming absence of a
ing needs.
September 1973
1,874
1,019
comprehensive national housing policy
A SUMMARY OF FEDERAL HOUSING PROGRAMS
October 1973
1,677
970
November 1973
1,724
960
for both urban and rural areas. The two
FmHA has several programs that are
December 1973
1,526
824
Federal agencies responsible for admin-
on their way to meeting rural demands.
January 1974
1,453
811
February 1974
1,784
1,032
istering national housing programs, the
Section 502 provides loans to purchase
March 1974
1,553
967
Department of Housing and Urban Af-
a new or existing house, or to build, re-
April 1974
1,571
983
habilitate, or relocate homes.
May 1974
1,415
900
fairs-HUD-and the Farmers Home
June 1974
1,526
984
Administration-FmHA-lack an ade-
Section 515 provides direct loans to
July 1974
1,290
903
quate framework to meet our national
finance rental or cooperative housing
August 1974
1,145
813
September 1974
1,180
872
housing needs.
and related facilities for occupancy by
October 1974
1,100
793
The housing slump started before the
low to moderate income rural families.
November 1974
1,028
812
December 1974
940
719
recent recession, went deeper than the
Section 504 provides loans to make
January 1975
1,005
748
economy overall, and is responding more
houses safer and more viable in rural
February 1975
953
722
areas, and section 514/515 provides
March 1975
986
763
slowly than the recovery. Moreover, in-
April 1975
982
774
flation in housing and financing costs is
loans at 1 percent interest for a term of
May 1975
1,085
853
such that American families have in-
up to 33 years to buy, build or repair
June 1975
1,080
874
July 1975
1,207
916
creasing problems buying-or renting-
housing for domestic farm labor. FmHa,
August 1975
1,264
979
an adequate house.
however, now operates piecemeal pro-
September 1975
1,304
966
October 1975
grams, some of which work well. They
1,431
1,093
Since 1972, total private and public
November 1975
1,381
1,048
housing starts have declined. Though this
have no overall rural housing goals as
December 1975
1,283
962
trend is reversing itself, housing starts
part of their mandate.
January 1976
1,236
957
February 1976
1,547
1,295
are nowhere near the level they were in
HUD was established to assist com-
March 1976
1,417
1,110
late 1972, causing much havoc in the
munities in housing and community
April 1976
1,381
1,063
May 1976
1,415
1,057
building industry and raising the cost
development. There are several pro-
of houses.
grams within HUD that could help im-
Many people, especially young fami-
prove rural housing needs. Section 8
This problem was exacerbated by a
lies, find it more and more difficult to
provides housing assistance payments
more than 50 percent reduction in feder-
purchase a home. In 1972, one-third of
for low income families to either rent or
ally supported housing production dur-
the Nation's households could afford to
build homes. Section 235 provides assist-
ing the 1973 to 1975 period, as evidenced
purchase a medium-priced house. In
ance in the form of monthly subsidies
by table II, thus further cutting. the
1975, an income of $20,000 was needed to
and is of great importance to rural
chances that the Montana wood prod-
qualify for a conventional mortgage on
areas. Section 202 provides housing for
ucts industry would get back on its feet.
E 4148
CONGRESSIONAL of Remarks
July
28,
redirected in such a way as to reduce the di-
Provisions Act and section 438(c) of that
rect incentives for non-production and non-
Act authorize the withholding of information
the the White House for another Dates
vitage
Me
employment.
on individuals and their families gathered
mer guy Hollywood at the country's
hed
to
h
in connection with certain statistical activ-
fornia
but Ronald
card
alcoh
severe
ities of the Education Division of this De-
partment. Likewise, section 308(d) of the
November. seeking to rectify his
mes vidual has Y
LEGISLATIVE HISTORY OF THE
Public Health Service Act provides similar
In either case, the Air Force
from
SUNSHINE ACT
authority with regard to the release of in-
formation gathered in the course of health
their dential spokesmen in Congress
his
1
advisory circle would have
stion
and
statistical activities and health research,
ficulty starting us on the road to au
HON. PAUL N. M:CLOSKEY, JR.
evaluations, and demonstrations. We were
ture of up to $90 billion for the
The
Cott
concerned, however, that none of these pro-
OF CALIFORNIA
er-the most costly outliy for
visions establishes "particular criteria" or
weapons system in the world's
roven succ
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
refers "to particular types of information"
tory. The only difference might be that
was devel
Wednesday, July 28, 1976
so as to fall within the third examption from
Reagan would want to spend more to
read
are
the Freedom of Information Act as it would
more of the big bombers-he has been
and
Mr. McCLOSKEY. Mr. Speaker, pur-
be amended by H.R. 11656 as reported.
plaining for months in his battle for
tram is adr
suant to the dialog with the gentleman
We believe that the amendment which
lican Convention delegates with the
who unders
from Massachusetts (Mr. BURKE), I
Congressman McCloskey intends to introduce
dent that Mr. Ford is stifling our arms
ackground
place this letter in the RECORD as part of
will help to resolve the problems noted above.
opment and moving the U.S. into the
tentially W
the legislative history of the Sunshine
In particular, we believe that clause (A) of
of Second Class power.
the amended provision, which refers to any
On the other hand, neither of these cands-
country, fro
Act:
statute that requires matters to be withheld
dates could survive the election in Novem-
districts of
Hon. PETER W. RODINO, Jr.,
from the public, would include the provi-
ber. There's a possibility-it's too early to
is also a
Chairman, Committee on the Judiciary,
sions of the Social Security Act, the General
tell how distinct-that a Georgia peanut
In the 2-y'
House of Representatives, Washington,
Education Provisions Act, and the Rublic
grower and ex-governor of that state named
he Cottag
D.C.
Health Service Act referred to above which
Jimmy Carter might be the Facto Factotura
Lake City
DEAR MR. CHAIRMAN: The purpose of this
require the Department to withhold certain
of the Oval Office come January, 1977. And
while rece
letter is to inform you of this Department's
information from the public in the inter-
Mr. Carter, in one of the limited number
equal to $2
views with regard to an amendment which
est of protecting the privacy of individuals.
of campaign questions in which he has taken
service has
we understand will be offered to H.R. 11656,
To the extent that the proposed amendment
an unreserved position, is an outspoken op-
the "Government in the Sunshine Act", when
is intended to accomplish this result, we
ponent of U.S. commitment of taxpayer
from 12 to
that bill is considered by the House of Rep-
fully support the amendment and urge that
money for construction of the B-1.
decreasing
resentatives. We understand that Congress-
it be adopted. However, we would hope that
In the manner characteristic to presiden-
service prc
man McCloskey will offer an amendment to
the debate on this provísion and the report
tial electioneering, however, the issue has
This pro
section 5(b) of the bill, which would amend
of the Conferees on the bill (if a Conference
been politicized; sound judgments are im-
developed
the third exemption of the Freedom of In-
is held and this provision is included in the
possible under the pressures of the campaign.
formation Act-5 U.S.C. 552 (b) (3).
bill as reported) clearly indicate that the
The sensible thing to do now-the time fac-
tion grant
The amendment which we understand
statutory provisions referred to above, which
tor is not that critical-is to let the matter
Alcohol Al
Congressman McCloskey will offer on the
are designed to protect the privacy of per-
rest until after the disorder of the politick-
of Prevent
Floor would revice subsection (b) (3) of the
sonal information, will remain in full force
ing is cleared away and the issue of national
ously urge
Freedom of Information Act to read as fol-
and effect.
leadership is settled in the fall election.
following
lows:
The amendment to the Freedom of Infor-
This was the course taken by the Senate
Meeting I
(b) This section does not apply to matters
mation Act contained in this bill will, of
in its vote earlier in the present session on
Preventio
that are-
course, affect other agencies of the Federal
President Ford's demand for an immediate
beginning on the B-1. The Senate sensibly
material
government. The views expressed above re-
late only to the effect of this amendment
voted, 44-37, to defer a decision until the
cials in th
(3) Specifically exempted from disclosure
by statute; providde: that such statute (A)
on programs of this Department and we de-
man who will take the presidential chair in
formation
fer to other affected agencies as to the de-
January could determine whether building
Mr. Berni
requires that the matters be withheld from
sirability of this amendment from their
the bomber is truly in the national interest.
at The C
the public or (B) establishes particular cri-
teria for withholding or refers to particular
standpoint.
The House, however, voted for a start on
Salt Lake
types of matters to be wi eld.
We are advised by the Office of Manage-
the B-1, and, in the House-Senate confer-
In summary, the Department would sup-
ment and Budget that there is no objection
ence committee review of the measure,
THE COTTA
to the presentation of these views from the
knocked out the Senate provision. About $1
TO THE
port this amendment if legislative history
standpoint of the Administration's program.
billion was earmarked for a start on the
(By Ber
is provided to make clear that there is no
bomber in the $32.5 billion arms authoriza-
intention in revising exemption 3 to invali-
Sincerely,
THE H
MARJORIE LYNCH,
tion bill sent to the White House last week.
date certain statutory provisions adminis-
Under Secretary.
The only chance to correct this now is when
tered by this Department designed to pro-
The
C
the Congress is asked to approve the actual
tect the privacy of personal information ob-
launched
appropriations for the B-1. And the more
tained by the Department. As so clarified,
reasonable course under the circumstances
in alcoho
the amendment would substantially resolve
in Salt LA
would be to hold up the money.
a number of problems which we have noted
WHAT'S THE HURRY?
The B-1's opponents may be right-it
developed
in the version of the amendment contained
could be the most wasteful military boon-
Wright, W
in the bill as reported by the House Judiciary
and Government Operations Committees.
HON. HELEN S. MEYNER
doggle ever foisted on the people. Or, as the
reach CO1
military advocates insist, it may be an im-
the Utah
Under section 5(b) of H.R. 11656 as re-
OF NEW JERSEY
perative future defense need in our sorely
Dr. Kii
ported by the House Judiciary Committee,
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
troubled international community. But the
Executive
the third exemtpion in the Freedom of In-
issue must be settled on these bases, rather
Foundati
formation Act would have been amended to
Wednesday, July 28, 1976
than on the exigencies of political campaign
Neighbor
exempt from disclosure only material re-
Mrs. MEYNER. Mr. Speaker, the dis-
interests.
ing on d
quired or permitted to be withheld from the
lishing O
public by any statute establishing particular
pute in Congress over the value of the
the 'gooc
criteria or referring to particular types of in-
B-1 bomber program continues. The de-
THE PREVENTION OF ALCOHOLISM
neighbor
formation. We have indicated that this pro-
bate is especially important because it
treatmer
vision may threaten the privacy of records
involves a weapons program of major,
Cottage
relating to individuals maintained by the So-
long-term strategic importance with a
HON. ALLEN T. HOWE
concept,
cial Security Administration and by other
price tag that could reach $100 billion.
voluntee
OF UTAH
components of the Department.
The current issue in Congress is
ple to C
There are a number of statutory provi-
IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
coholisn
whether construction of the plane should
sions which currently authorize the Depart-
dents.
wait until the heat of the current polit-
Wednesday, July 28, 1976
ment to protect the privacy of information
The fi
about individuals which is maintained by
ical compaign is over and a new Presi-
Mr. HOWE. Mr. Speaker, I would like
gan by @
the Department. Principal among these pro-
dent is inaugurated. I insert in the
to bring to the attention of my colleagues
ing on (
visions is section 1106 of the Social Security
RECORD at this point an editorial from
an outstanding alcoholism prevention
commun
Act which provides that no disclosure may
the Easton Express in Easton, Pa., which
plan which has been developed in my
were lat
be made of certain Internal Revenue returns
makes a particularly strong case for a
district. This program, called the Cot-
ings on
or of any other file, record, report, or other
paper obtained by the Secretary in discharg-
delay in construction:
tage Meeting Program, has been so suc-
were in
ing his duties under that Act, except as the
WHAT'S THE HURRY?
cessful that it merits review by all State
Wher
Secretary may prescribe by regulations. Sec-
Within the next six months President Ford
health officials who deal with the ever-
lay volu
holism,
tion 406(d) (2) of the General Education
could either be unemployed-or ensconced in
increasing problem of alcoholism. The