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This file contains an interview with Arthur G. Brown concerning the Grand Rapids South High football team in the late 1920's and early 1930's, subsequent meetings of the 30-30 Club, and his friendship with Gerald R. Ford since 1927.
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4497996
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Brown, Arthur G. - Interview, 1/26/80
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4497996
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Brown, Arthur G. - Interview, 1/26/80
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This file contains an interview with Arthur G. Brown concerning the Grand Rapids South High football team in the late 1920's and early 1930's, subsequent meetings of the 30-30 Club, and his friendship with Gerald R. Ford since 1927.
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Grand Rapids Oral Histories Collection
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Scanned from Grand Rapids Oral History Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library (Box 1)
RECORDS AND ARCHIVES ADMINISTRATION NATTON
Gerald R. Ford Library
1000 Beal Avenue Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-2114
1985
ARTHUR G. BROWN
Oral history interview concerning his friendship with Gerald
Ford since 1927, especially the South High School football
teams of the late 1920's and early 1930's and subsequent
meetings of the 30-30 Club.
A Presidential Library Administered by the National Archives and Records Administration
RECEIVED NOV 1980
GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION
NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS SERVICE
GERALD R. FORD LIBRARY
Legal Agreement Pertaining to the Oral History Interview of Arthur G.
Brown.
In accordance with the provisions of Chapter 21 of Title 44, United
States Code, and subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter set
forth, I, Arthur G. Brown, of Wyoming, MI, do hereby give, donate
and convey to the United States of America all my rights, title, and
interest in the tape recording and transcript of a personal
interview conducted on January 26, 1980 at Wyoming, MI
and prepared for deposit in the Gerald R. Ford Library. This
assignment is subject to the following terms and conditions:
(1) The transcript shall be available for use by researchers
as soon as it has been deposited in the Gerald R. Ford Library.
(2) The tape recording shall be available to those researchers
who have access to the transcript.
(3) I hereby assign to the United States Government all
copyright I may have in the interview transcript and tape.
(4) Copies of the transcript and the tape recording may be
provided by the Library to researchers on request.
(5) Copies of the transcript and tape recording may be
deposited in or loaned to institutions other than the Gerald R.
Ford Library.
Donor
JUNE /, 1980
Date
acting Archivist Janes of the E.Oheill United States
Date June 9, 1980
This interview is being conducted with Mr. Art Brown at his home
in Grand Rapids, Michigan on January 26, 1980. The interviewer
is Dr. Thomas Soapes. Present for the interview are Mr. Brown and
Dr. Soapes.
SOAPES:
Are you a native of Grand Rapids?
BROWN:
No, I was born in Mount Pleasant, Michigan.
SOAPES:
And then you moved here when?
BROWN:
'26. My father owned an electrical company in
Belding, Michigan and that's where I went to grade school. My
father sold out his interest and we moved to Grand Rapids, and I
started at South High, which was the only school in Grand Rapids
I ever went to. I started in the eighth grade at South High.
SOAPES:
And you would have run into Ford there?
BROWN:
I met President Ford on the football practice field
in 1927.
SOAPES:
What position did you play?
BROWN:
I was a tackle.
SOAPES:
And he was playing center.
BROWN:
He was a center, right.
SOAPES:
Was this a full eleven man squad? It wasn't a seven
man - -
BROWN:
Yes, an eleven man squad. In those days there was
no substitution, that is free substitution, you could not go back
in in the half you came out. If the coach took you out of the
game in the last half you might as well go take a shower because
you were all done.
SOAPES:
So you had to play both ways.
BROWN:
Everybody played both ways, which, in some way, to
me, was a much better deal than you got today, in this instance,
that a man has to think for himself. Whereas today more people can
play, that's very true, but he does one thing, that's all he does,
and the coach tells him what to do before he ever goes in the game.
He can be in there for one play, come out and go back, which
especially in high school, it does not give the individual a chance
to think for himself, which, as I say, is detrimental to the game
but yet it lets more kids play - - they don't all have to sit on
the bench all the time the way they did in our day. Because if we
didn't get ahead by twenty points that poor sub never got in the
game - - that's why you're considered a first and second team. Now
you've got probably 33 players - - you've got the kick-off team;
you've got the receiving team. When you had to block and tackle
it was entirely different than you do today - - you've got one
team that tackles; one team that blocks. Maybe they get a little
more proficient at the job than we did, but we did pretty good, I
think, in our day.
SOAPES:
What kind of coaching did you have?
BROWN:
We had a very good coach. He taught us a lot, not
just how to carry a ball or score a touchdown. He taught us much
more than that which has proved out. This is the only group that
I know of, of a high school team that knows exactly where each and
-2-
every member of the 1930 team is - - he taught that togetherness.
It didn't make any difference who made the touchdown, who made the
tackle as long as we made it because if you didn't make it there
was ten other guys who were right with you all the time. We played
as a group not as an individual star. And that was true all the
way through. Mr. [Cliff] Gettings was the coach, and he did a
wonderful job. Some of these coaches today - - I've seen my son
play high school ball - - and when a coach has to swear at players
to get them to play is not my idea of a coach. Because if any coach
had ever did that to me, I would have left right there. And I never
heard our coach ever say one profanity word. The roughest he ever
got was, "You look like a crappen can in distress." That's the
strongest language I ever heard the man use. And he would get you
to play and want to play, not necessarily to win but to play the
game the way it should be played.
SOAPES:
I was going to ask that next question - - Was this
a Vince Lombardy type of winning "Winning is the only thing?"
BROWN:
No way. You played by the rules, whether you won or
lost you still stayed with the rules. There was no unnecessary
roughness whatsoever.
SOAPES:
Was there a heavy emphasis on winning?
BROWN:
No. Sure, everybody wanted to win. If you ever
lost a game you cried, which I never seen a kid do today much.
Cheerleaders are the only ones that cry - - the kids playing, they
-3-
think well, ok, so we lost another one. No, there was no great
emphasis on the winning, none whatsoever. It was play the game
the way it was supposed to be played.
SOAPES:
About how big a high school in terms of enrollment
was South High at that time?
BROWN:
Oh, there was - - I'm trying to think - - it included
the lower grades which were in that building too, be around 3,000.
There were 234 in President Ford's senior class. I'm just guessing;
I can't recall the exact figure.
SOAPES:
Did the football players tend to stay together as a
social group as well?
BROWN:
Very much so.
SOAPES:
The people that Jerry Ford picked out as his close
friends, is there a way that you could characterize the people that
were closest to him?
BROWN:
Actually President Ford was a very friendly man; he
had the integrity, and his biggest standpoint to me was his honesty.
It made no difference what locality or what wage group, you might
say, of society that you come from, because he was as friendly with
us, which come from a little poorer class I might say than he was,
and he was friends with everybody and everybody liked him. You may
know or not, I don't know, his father's financial standing was
better than most of us. Most of us lived around Franklin and Division
which was a lower income zone or bracket whichever you wish to call
-4-
it, and in those days it was almost Italian descent dominated. In
fact, A1 Capone was here for one of the prominent Italian's wedding
at that time. Ford lived out a little farther in a little better
district. And I worked in a drug store on the corner of Franklin
and Division during non-football season because that was the only
sport I did participate in due to the fact that I had to work. We
all used to hang around down there anyway, and he would come down
there quite often, and sometimes he would come down in his father's
LaSalle. Now I don't know if you know what a LaSalle is or not, but
that was a small Cadillac. But Ford worked too. He worked in the
restaurant across the street from South High.
SOAPES:
Right, that's the place where his father - -
BROWN:
Right, father, not Mr. Ford. Mr. Ford was a wonderful
person too, but his mother was a very nice lady, wonderful.
SOAPES:
I was going to ask you for your impressions of them.
BROWN:
Wonderful. His father was a politician, no question
about that, and at times he may have made some sharp deals. But his
mother, you couldn't ask for a more wonderful woman than she was, I
don't think.
SOAPES:
Did you get a sense that this was a strickly-disciplined
household?
BROWN:
Mr. Ford was rather humerous too - - he pulled some
tricks on those kids and on his relations. But, as I recall, Jerry's
stepbrother - - I don't refer to them as stepbrothers, they were his
-5-
brothers. You could eat all you wanted but you eat all you put on
your plate, well that was true in most of our homes in those days
too. We were getting into the depression and getting in there
pretty fast, back in '27 and '28 and '30 was our last year there,
that is as far as football was concerned.
SOAPES:
You said that his father would occasionally pull
some tricks on the boys. Do you remember any of those?
BROWN:
Not exactly, but he would do things in the house.
I know of one instance where he had - - like the dog had made some
droppings only it was plastic and he left it in the living room
floor. [Laughter] But I wouldn't say he was too strict, no. But
Jerry admired him, there is no question about that. He viewed
Jerry, I think, equally as his other three sons. In fact, as you
know, Jerry didn't know he was adopted for quite some time. In fact,
I knew he was adopted before he made the fact common knowledge.
SOAPES:
How did you come to know that?
BROWN:
Well, Mr. Ford worked for the Grand Rapids Varnish
Company and the man that owned the Grand Rapids Varnish Company
lived around very close to where I worked at the Fletcher Drug
Store. And he'd come in there and was a- little perturbed with
Mr. Ford because Mr. Ford had left him to start his own Ford Paint
Shop, or at least had left him. And he filled me in with all the
details of Mrs. Ford and Mr. King, which at that time I figured it
was nobody's business but my own - - I never repeated it to anybody
-6-
until right now. But that's how I come to know he was adopted. I
never told anybody because I figured - - they were a wonderful
family, why should I say anything. But Jerry did find it out before,
he knew he was adopted. When Mr. Ford adopted him and used his
name as Junior, I thought it was wonderful, very good.
SOAPES:
The relationship between the brothers, was there a
close relationship?
BROWN:
That I don't know because they were a little younger,
see, than we were. And I know how it is, being a younger brother
myself, an older brother doesn't like to take the younger one along.
I had that experience on my own. My brother was seven years older
than I and he never wanted to take me, but as time went on I got to
be bigger than he was. [Laughter] Therefore, I did not know very
much about his brothers until recent years. They're all very nice
as far as that's concerned. As you probably know, Dick and I are
both on the Ford committee for the museum.
SOAPES:
When you were playing football, how did Ford react
to the results of a game, to winning?
BROWN:
Well, he enjoyed winning and he hated to loose - -
we all hated to loose.
SOAPES:
Did he show this in any particular way?
BROWN:
He shows a lot of emotions, but never in anger. I
have never seen him loose his control in anger. He's lost control
of himself in humility. When they unveiled the mural - - you've
-7-
seen it at the airport. Have you been out there?
SOAPES:
No, I haven't.
BROWN:
Well, President Ford was there when they opened
the drape and his father and mother were pictured in the mural,
and he just couldn't speak, the tears were rolling down his cheeks.
He had never seen it until that point in time. That hit him. And
I have often wished that his mother would have lived to see him be
president; it would have been a wonderful thing. But when they
unveiled that mural I don't think that he knew that his mother and
father was in it. Of course, Betty and the children were there in
the mural, too, and there was quite a big one of him. And that
got him, right there - - those tears running down his cheeks. But
he's been hurt, but he doesn't show it, and never in anger. He
gave a speech at the University of Michigan, was on television,
and he got booed quite a bit - - you could hear it. And I could
see the look on his face - - it hurt him to think that here he is
back at his own school and his own state and he's being booed. I
called him later to apologize for it. He says, "Art, it wasn't
that bad." And I said, "You don't kid me any because I could see
the look on your face." "Well," he says, "there was a few but it
wasn't quite as bad - -." But you could see the look in his face
that he was hurt and I could understand why - - here he is, as I
say, your own state, your own school, and they boo you.
SOAPES:
A man of a great sensitivity who didn't quite show
-8-
it all, but when it did show it was very strong.
BROWN:
Right, he just couldn't hold it back, right. But
in anger, I never seen him loose control of his emotions in anger.
He agrees to this too, I believe, that his mother was very strict
on that, never loose control of your emotions in anger.
SOAPES:
Was it a family that tended to show their emotions
of togetherness?
BROWN:
I believe so, yes, they were.
SOAPES:
Were you around the parents enough to get a feel
for the types of friendships that they developed?
BROWN:
You mean with the people of their - -
SOAPES:
Of their peers.
BROWN:
No, no, not until later years because, as I say, I
come from a lower income bracket and our social activity was nowhere
compared to theirs.
SOAPES:
The formation of the 30-30 Club, how did that come
about?
BROWN:
Well, Dick [Richard J.] Zylstra and I, Dick played
fullback, we thought why don't we try to get this group, together
for Thanksgiving breakfast, we've always been together - - this
was in '31. We reserved a place at a hotel which was down by the
old depot - - the depot is gone now - - and he and I went down. We
didn't have much money; we didn't know if enough people were going
to show up to pay for this project or not but they did and its gone
-9-
on ever since then. We did not call it the 30-30 Club. I started
that because we were going to have our anniversary for the thirty
years or whatever, twenty-five or something, but, anyway, I got
tired of writing South High's 1930 Football Team. So I figured
well it was 1930 and we had, at one time, thirty people in a squad,
so I just made it 30-30 and it stuck, and I've used it ever since.
That was the main reason for that.
SOAPES:
Did Ford take an active part in the organization of it?
BROWN:
Not at that time. See, he was away at school. And
then he went on to Yale, of course, as you know, and then the war
came along. He was back here for a little while in his law office,
which I think you know.
SOAPES:
With Phil Buchen.
BROWN:
Right. We used to meet in the summer, now we only
meet for this Thanksgiving thing. In fact, this year will be the
big year because we have everybody, the wives. Otherwise, it's
just members. But every five years we have the families - - wives,
grandchildren, sons, daughters. Last time we had it, five years
ago, we had 128 people. Just what will develop this year, I don't
know.
SOAPES:
Did you or any of the others from the South High
group get involved in the political arena here in Grand Rapids?
BROWN:
No.
SOAPES:
You didn't work with the "Home Front?"
-10-
BROWN:
No. In 1948, as I started to say, we used to meet
in the summer - - June, I think - - I've got the records somewhere
because I used to keep records of what we spent and what we did at
these meetings. The meeting was at Gerald R. Ford's [Sr.] home - -
that's when he announced that he was going to run for congressman
from the fifth district of Michigan. At that time most of us didn't
even realize we lived in the fifth district, but we did. I wasn't
interested in politics at all. But, here, Ford naturally wanted us
to get his petition signed, which we did. That was his first public
announcement to run for the congressman from the fifth district.
SOAPES:
So you didn't have any involvement with the "Home
Front" organization.
BROWN:
No, not until that time. Then everybody did every-
thing they could for Ford because he wasn't to well-known. He had
been an all-city center two years, and he had been an all-state
center his last year. But other than that he wasn't too well-known
in the city and, of course, out of our county in Kent where the
fifth district which - - they are not now, it's Ionia - - but Ottawa
County didn't know him. That's why he went out in the farm and
stood with the old farmer and the old Hollander, you might say,
because Ottawa County is practically all Hollander, you might say
dominated - - Holland descent.
SOAPES:
Was there much of that Dutch population here in
Kent County?
-11-
BROWN:
Still is, still is. It's getting away from it now,
but it was mostly known as a Dutch town. They had blue laws - -
nothing could be open on Sunday, you couldn't buy anything. But
that's gradually faded away, no more of that, practically anything
that wants to be open now is open.
SOAPES:
Do you recall from that campaign of '48 what types
of issues, what type of campaign he ran? I'm thinking in particular
of the primary against Jonkman?
BROWN:
He campaigned most that Jonkman had been in there too
long and he didn't do anything - - he figured he had it won and he
didn't do anything. And one thing that Ford did - - he would not
promise anything he couldn't produce, and that was true from the first
day that I met him - - that was one reason he lost out as President
of the senior class. He would not promise anything he didn't think
he could do, and he did the same thing in his presidential campaign.
He never made a promise that he didn't think he could keep. Maybe
some of them he couldn't keep, but he thought he could at the time.
But old Barney Jonkman figured he had the thing sewed up - - no
young whippersnapper was going to beat him. And Ford spent a lot
of time in fact I think, you may know, he was late for his wedding
and had manure on his shoes when he got there because he was out
meeting people face to face. People couldn't figure out for one
thing why he was single. Well he went with different girls as far
as that is concerned. Now this Brown which is no relation of mine
-12-
that you know - -
SOAPES:
Yes, Phyllis Brown.
BROWN:
And he went with girls in high school, but I don't
know, I can't say he was very aggressive but he was maybe more of a
gentleman than the rest of us were when it came to the opposite sex.
To help win the election isn't the only reason he married Betty
there is no question about that - - but he figured if he was
married he would stand a little better chance in the primaries. But
don't misunderstand me that that was the only reason he got married,
because it wasn't.
SOAPES:
I understand that. I'm about the same age he was
then, and I'm not married either.
BROWN:
I was twenty-five before I was married.
SOAPES:
Was that question raised at all in the campaign?
Did Jonkman try to say anything?
BROWN:
Not that I recall no, no.
SOAPES:
You mentioned him loosing the race for President of
the Senior class. Who was it that won?
BROWN:
Bill [William] Schuiling. He's a banker in
Washington now. I think he handled the fund for the pool at the
White House. Remember when they got donations, subscriptions when
they built the pool when Ford was President. I think he handled
that end of it.
SOAPES:
Once Ford was elected, did he maintain close ties back
-13-
here with his old friends and the people who had worked for him?
BROWN:
Yes, he spent as much time back here as he possibly
could, but he campaigned all the time for other people too. The
night that he took over as President that Nixon was going to resign - -
well, I had the house full of TV cameras and everything else but
I got a call from a St. Louis paper - - I can't recall the name of
the paper - -
SOAPES:
Post-Dispatch?
BROWN:
Could well be.
SOAPES:
Or the Globe-Democrat?
BROWN:
Right. They didn't ask me anything about Jerry Ford.
They wanted to know if I thought that Betty Ford could handle being
the First Lady. I said, "My God, she raised four kids with no help
from him because he was gone all the time and I think if she can
handle that." She raised those kids. He was home when he could be,
but he's a politician in a sense of an honest politician - - he's
gone all over the country speaking for other people at that time
when he was a congressman. Because I think it's, well in either
his book or hers, that the children would have to redo their
routine because he was going to come home - - they had to drop
their dates because dad was going to be home for the weekend or a
day or two, which was true.
SOAPES:
Did you notice a trend in his personality in the
early years of being much of the politician type?
-14-
BROWN:
A leader.
SOAPES:
A leader.
BROWN:
More of a leader. Because if there was a situation
he would move into it. You know when they say, he couldn't chew
gum and walk at the same time was a lot of bunk, because if a
decision had to be made, he'd make it.
SOAPES:
Can you remember some examples of where you thought
this really stood out in your personal relationship with him?
BROWN:
Well, the only one that amounts to too much - - I
don't know if you will recall, being your age - - there was always
talk about a communistic element in this country. They wrote some
stuff on the steps going into the gym at South High and just like
that Ford had a bunch of us out there and made them scrub it off
with a brick, what they wrote. The exact wording of what they
wrote I will not go into, but we did. And he was basically behind
it - - getting that out of there, getting it over and done with.
SOAPES:
This was while you were still students.
BROWN:
Right. It was back in '28 or '29, it wouldn't have
been '30.
SOAPES:
That's interesting, I hadn't heard that story before.
BROWN:
But he was the same as we were. He and I were
athletes. They had an elevator at South High - - it was three
floors - - the elevator was for the teachers and handicapped students.
One day Ford and I come down the hall and decided we'd ride to the
-15-
third floor in the elevator. We got off on the third floor we ran
right into Mr. Buikema, who was a teacher at that time and later
was superintendent of schools in the city. And we got reprimanded
right there, that if we were athletes we should be able to climb
the stairs. But as far as getting into any - - what can you call
it - - hell raising - - there was very little of that. We had a
feud going between South High and Creston High School at one time.
Creston High School sits back quite aways from Plainfield Avenue,
and I've seen that thing packed with kids - - somebody hitting
somebody else for no reason and nobody knew why they were there to
start with.
SOAPES:
But Ford wasn't the type of person who might be
found in a brawl situation.
BROWN:
No. Not unless he got pushed right in the middle of
it. Otherwise, to look for it, no.
SOAPES:
Was he known as academically talented in high school?
BROWN:
Yes. I sat with him in one American history class
and it comes in very good because, as you know, he writes left
handed, and I sat on his right side and it was very easy to read
what he put down, because, as you know, he was an honor student.
His grades were good, He was an Eagle Scout. How he had time to
do all this - - football was the only sport I participated in - -
he was in football, basketball and track. Of course somebody will
tell you he was on the wrestling team too, but there was no
-16-
wrestling and there was no baseball at South High at that time either.
When we, the 30-30 Club, were going to go to Washington there was one
guy called me, said he was the captain of the wrestling team in 1930
with Ford and he thought he ought to go - - no way. He's well liked.
There's very few people who don't like him. Politicians, as you
know, he has as many friends that are Democrats as he does other-
wise.
SOAPES:
I get an impression that he was the type of person as
a high school student who was always active physically, always doing
something.
BROWN:
Right, and still keeping up with his studies. As I
say he worked. In the summer he worked out at Reed's Lake, which
was an amusement park at that time. Have you done any tape with
Mr. Delamar who he worked for?
SOAPES:
No.
BROWN:
The man that he worked for at one time.
SOAPES:
I haven't. When he was a congressman, you said he
was around a lot, was his name in the paper frequently - - headlines
of Ford does this, Ford does that?
BROWN:
Not too much as I recall, no. But he spent an awful
lot of time in Grand Rapids when he could. He used to come out to
the house because he knew Mrs. Brown - - her name was Betty the same
as Betty Ford - - he would be here to some Republican gathering or
some speech or something - - it would be ten or eleven o'clock at
-17-
night or a little earlier maybe - - he would come out to the house.
He said if I go down to the hotel, Art, I'd either have to sit in
my room or if I set in the bar somebody wants something. He'd come
out and sit on the davenport and we'd talk about our kids - - I only
have one son so he'd have more to talk about than I would. As I
say in a bar, Ford would drink same as you or I, not to any excess,
never. But now I see he's cut it out for pecan ice cream because
there's so many calories in it, in the cocktail. I've seen some of
the letters he used to get when he was a congressman. He did a lot
for the little people we'll say. He's got some letters that some-
body's son came home from the Army, only had one shoe. Now that's
just like going back to the teacher and saying my kid lost his
mittens at school, but he'd do it. I don't believe anybody ever
wrote him that wanted help that didn't get it. I run into people
yet today that tell me what Ford did for them when he was congressman.
SOAPES:
So he kept his fences mended by responding to the
requests of the people.
BROWN:
Right. He was always here on a holiday when there
was a parade. As you know, he was up at Cedar Springs in this red
flannel deal; he was out here at Comstock Park - - he always had a
parade. As I say, he was on the road whenever there was the
opportunity to, as you say, mend his fences. He kept in contact
with the people, let's put it that way. He did not loose contact
at any time, and he was a wonderful memory. I wish I had the
-18-
memory he's got. He calls these older farmers by their first name,
yet. When he came back here as Vice-President, first time he come
back, we were out here at the airport, the 30-30 Club was there,
we were out at the plane and of course they were lined on both sides,
the county representatives. He got off that plane - - here it is
dark - - he's calling them by their first name. His memory is
wonderful, sharp, very sharp. How he can remember it all, I do not
know. When they say he stumbles and this and that, as you may know,
he has trouble with his one knee - - he was operated on the knee
in Ann Arbor. He pretty near fell down at Nixon's inauguration; he
stumbled on those steps and he caught himself just in time. That
stumbling has nothing to do with this up here, not at all. It is
that knee gives out on him, that's the whole thing. It's too bad
that they had to blow up that part of it when he fell getting off
the plane - -
SOAPES:
The airplane in Vienna.
BROWN:
Right.
SOAPES:
Do you remember any time during his service as con-
gressman when he was involved in controversial matters that generated
some sort of criticism here at home for him? Where either the press
or some of the political people back here would be highly critical
of what he was doing.
BROWN:
He got into a little controversy when he backed Mrs.
[George] Romney to run for the senate against [Philip] Hart. That
-19-
kicked up a little, but not as much as the charge that he had
received money for his campaign which was not legal. At one time
there was quite a deal about that - -
SOAPES:
The Seafarers Union, I think it was.
BROWN:
Right, that somebody had given him money. It did
not develop into a big bubble, but it started - - it could have.
In no way was he involved in what they said. The money was turned
over to the Republican party; he did not keep the money. I think
they tried to blow that up quite a bit but he proved that it wasn't.
In fact, he's something like I am: he's a keeper of everything that
might be some day of use. When he was investigated before he was
made Vice-President, he had receipts and everything else for every-
thing that he had ever bought that was related to the job. He's
rather a pack rat, you might say, same as I am. I've got stuff way
back - - used to be Brown's junk, now it's Ford's memorabilia - -
changed right away. [Laughter] But as I say, as far as anything
scandelous there was something about when he tried to get [Justice
William 0.] Douglas impeached. There was criticism of bringing in
a Playboy magazine or some magazine of that type where Douglas had
made a statement I believe. But this money deal I think was the
biggest thing, that they tried to say that he had received personal
contributions to himself, which, as it turned out, was not true at
all, that he had to show that it was turned over to the Republican
party, not to him.
-20-
SOAPES:
In reading some of the newspaper clippings from the
1950s that he kept in his scrapbooks that are over at the library,
I noticed a number of references to local politicians wanting to
get him to run for governor or senator in the '50s. Did that get
very wide public discussion?
BROWN:
Do you mean for or against?
SOAPES:
Either way.
BROWN:
No. As you recall, or maybe you don't know this,
Senator [Arthur] Vandenberg took Ford under his wing in Washington
when he first came. Of course, Vandenberg was a senator and well
liked, a Hollander from this town. Well, when he died, there was
talk of making Ford fill out his unexpired - -
SOAPES:
Being appointed by the governor.
BROWN:
Right. But they didn't think his personal finances
would be apt for the job. I thought that stunk, myself. Here's
a man that could do the job - - I don't know if he actually wanted
it as far as that's concerned - - but the talk was that his own
finances wouldn't be high enough to handle that job.
SOAPES:
What about the other rumors involving running for
governor then in the mid '50s?
BROWN:
There wasn't too much excitement about it I didn't
think, and no way did he want it.
SOAPES:
He indicated to you he wasn't interested at all.
BROWN;
The only thing that he wanted, he wanted it badly,
-21-
was speaker of the house, that was his one political ambition. But
there never was enough Republicans in there at the time he was there
to get him in that seat. I personally think he would have rather
had that than vice-president or president, but he never planned on
that. In fact he would have retired that last year; 1976 he would
have been all done.
SOAPES:
Can you recall the first time he mentioned to you
that his ambition was to be speaker of the house?
BROWN:
Well, I think right from the start. He thought that
was the most wonderful job in the world - - no specific incident, no.
But he always had that longing, dream or whatever that some day he
could sit in that seat. That was his one ambition, and he never
had any yearning or any thought of running for president or vice-
president. They wanted him to run for vice-president at one time
as you recall - - I have that newspaper here somewhere - - and he
didn't particularly care about that.
SOAPES:
There was a boom for him in '60 and again in '64.
BROWN:
Right, Gerald Ford for vice-president.
SOAPES:
What do you recall of the reaction here in town to his
nomination to be vice-president in 1973?
BROWN:
Wonderful, wonderful. The FBI is the one that did
the investigation - - the town was full of them -- and evidently
everybody give a good word because he passed, let's put it that way.
But they were pretty clever: they asked me things that they already
-22-
knew the answer. This money deal which I couldn't recall a while
back, they brought that up. And after I said - - they said, "That's
right.' But, as I say, he was the most thoroughly investigated
president we ever had, and I don't believe there's ever been any
scandal about him. And his favorite past president, the same as
mine is Harry Truman, and poor old Harry, he might have used some
strong language but he never went out of line in his role as
president of the United States or any other office, I don't believe - -
the same with Ford.
SOAPES:
Was there a feeling in the town that the local boy
has made good?
BROWN:
Right, right everybody - - Democrats or Republicans
alike, they all liked him.
SOAPES:
You were telling me you organized then, after he
was President, the trip to Washington.
BROWN:
Right.
SOAPES:
That took you, what, six months you said?
BROWN:
Oh, easily. It started when he was vice-president.
I wrote and I said "Jerry, if you can find a hotel where we can
stay and is agreeable to your security" - - because as you know
the Secret Service has got him covered like a blanket - - "and meet
us there for the breakfast." Then he become president, and then he
wrote and said, "Betty and I think it is a wonderful idea and we
will have it in the White House," and put me in touch with Nancy
-23-
Howe, one of Mrs. Ford's aides. And from then on I went back and
forth with her on the phone. We tried to get South High's school
song - - the Marine band played for the breakfast, you know,
smaller part of an orchestra, whatever they got. We had a heck of
a time finding anybody who had the music. [Laughter] And people
who hadn't attended any of our meetings on Thanksgiving showed up;
they all got an invitation from the White House. There was only
one person that didn't go because he didn't agree with Ford's
pardon of Nixon. There were others in the group that didn't agree
with him - - I don't agree with him - - but that had nothing to do
with it, I didn't think. Anybody that was that simple that because
of his political move wouldn't go with the group -
That night at the White House he and I were down in
the Oval office - - Mrs. Brown and Mrs. Ford were still up in the
living quarters - - and talked down there and I wanted to see
Liberty, you know, the dog, so we went outside. And, of course,
we had no more than stepped out the door than the Secret Service
were ahead and behind us. That's when I said to him, "Jerry, what
in the H did you pardon this guy for?" He said, "Art," - - he told
me practically the same thing that's been published - - "I was
spending most of my time on this Watergate thing, and the best
advisers and everybody told me the best thing I could do is pardon
him. I [Ford] personally thought it was the right thing to do,"
but he said, "if I hadn't of and they would have started a trial
-24-
against President Nixon there was nothing I could do. It would
have dragged on for five, ten years through the courts." And he
said, "I didn't think it was the right thing for this country to
have to suffer. I thought, if I pardon him, this is my own
thoughts, [Ford's] if I pardon him we'd get this out of the way
and maybe I could get the country back so it believes in govern-
ment again and get it going." He said, "If I had to do it over
again, I'd do it. I knew that there was going to be some reaction
and repercussions against it, but I didn't think they would be
quite as bad as they were. But if I had it to do over again I'd
do it, because,"he said, "the prime reason was to get the country
back, if I could, that they believed in government and get us out
of this mess," which it was.
Personally, my own - - I can't see what any fool
would do this. What did he go in there for, Watergate, Nixon?
He had the election won. There was no reason for it that I can
see. And anybody who was foolish to keep tapes against himself
is foolisher yet.
SOAPES:
You were telling me earlier about the time you
first called him "Mr. President," that he took some umbrage or
didn't particularly care for that.
BROWN:
He said "Art, you know me better than that."
SOAPES:
But did you continue to call him Mr. President or
was it Jerry?
-25-
BROWN:
Not to his face, no. Usually when I talk about him
to other people I don't refer to him as Jerry, no. Some people
that know him as well as I do, yes. And on that same point, see I
talked to him on the phone after he become president, but when we
got to the White House, the day before Thanksgiving, he had a
schedule lined up for us. We went back to the capitol and they
took us all through this and that. We had not seen him, Mrs. Brown
nor I, personally since he had become President. Well we were back
in our room at the White House - - Susan was right across the hall
from us, she was in and out of our room like we belonged there - -
in fact she had been in our home, too. Anyway, as I say, we had
not met him face to face as president. So we're going down to
dinner, and he wasn't at the White House when we arrived, we hadn't
seen him as yet. We were going down to dinner, and Mrs. Brown says
to me, "Well, what do we do. After all he is the president of our
country." She said, "Are we going to shake hands or do we bow or
what?" And I said, "God, I don't know. Just play it by ear, I
guess." So when we get down there he's sitting on the davenport
with his feet up, because that leg bothers him, reading the paper
and he jumped up and hugged and kissed her which he has done before,
and that took care of the protocol right there. It was just the
same as always. He's never been any different to us than he ever
was at any time. But as I say after all he was the president of
the United States, which I have a lot of respect for. Although
-26-
I don't like this guy that's in there, I still respect Carter as the
president, in that way. But I didn't know exactly what we were
going to do to tell you the truth - - how he would be after he
become president [Ford], but it was no different, no change whatso-
ever. And Betty was the same way.
SOAPES:
Did you detect any change in the attitude of the town
of the local press here towards him when he went from congressman
to vice-president to president?
BROWN:
He had good publicity here I think because Maury
DeJonge, who was a reporter at the Grand Rapids Press - - he is no
longer there, he's now a county clerk - - was very favorable to him.
In fact, he went to Washington when we went, the 30-30 Club. He was
in the driveway with a photographer when Mrs. Brown and I arrived
at the White House. They covered that well here, not only that but
the TV stations as well. We got a lot of mileage, you might say on
the TV.
[INTERRUPTION]
BROWN:
TV coverage and news coverage here, in fact the whole
country had very good coverage on it. For the 30-30 Club I sub-
scribed to one of these news deals that covers all United States
papers that send you the clippings.
SOAPES:
A clipping service.
BROWN:
Yes, I have that. I have pretty near every paper
in the country.
-27-
SOAPES:
Have you had much contact since he's been out of the
White House?
BROWN:
Yes.
SOAPES:
Again, is it still the same?
BROWN:
Still the same, same man. [Pointing to a picture]
These were taken at the ground breaking, in fact that one there is
the coach standing behind him, Mrs. Brown and I. And those are all
members of the 30-30 Club, their wives. They were all invited to
the ground breaking of the museum. But he's still the same.
SOAPES:
Was there much feeling of resentment or unhappiness
here when he decided not to move back to Grand Rapids?
BROWN:
Some, yes, there's been criticism. But you know
Betty's health does not go along with this atmosphere. One criticism
though, there may be some basis for it, I can't say right or wrong,
for his skiing, that he does not come back to Michigan to ski. Now
there is criticism against that, because there is good skiing here,
maybe not this year but it's getting that way. I think he would have
created a little better feeling if he would have come back here,
maybe onee- - I don't say he had to build here, no. But he built
in Vail or bought the apartment or whichever to ski. Well, the
north land of Michigan is quite critical of that, that he didn't
come here at all. It was a point. But, in my own, I figured, what
the heck, he can live where he wants to, that's his business. If
I want to move I can move. I moved out of the city of Grand Rapids
-28-
when I retired and moved out here. People said, "You going to go
to Wyoming" - - they figured the state of Wyoming, not the city.
SOAPES:
So, the relationships he's been able to maintain
back here are still there; he still has the ties back here.
BROWN:
Now he will be here for the Lincoln day dinner,
which is March, I don't know, 24th twenty something, he'll be
back here. He's been in and out of here with this Ford Museum
Committee. As I say, maybe I personally have had more contact
with him than anyone else, that is going back over fifty years
or so, being that I - - run, that's not the word I want - - over-
seeing this 30-30 Club because it's been left up to me, mostly.
If a decision is made, I make it. And being on that museum committee,
I don't agree - - that's another place that Ford and I disagreed - -
I didn't want the museum there. I still don't like it, but it's
going to be a beautiful building, good. But the reason it's made
in a triangle is the very thing I said, "What about the noise off
the expressway?" You know where it is. Here's the expressway.
Well, you get seven or eight diesel trucks going by there - - I
wanted it down on Jefferson Avenue between the Grand Rapids Museum
and St. Mary's Hospital, but there was too much political and
financial backing that this other side had and I couldn't swing
that. It's going to be a beautiful building, but it's a lot more
work than we ever thought. We thought we'd get the building and
then the National Archives would take over. Well, that's not true.
-29-
We've got to put the exhibits in there too - - I didn't know that.
And, as you know, the cost due to inflation is going up and up and
up and up.
-30-