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September 29, 1973 - Nixon, Kissinger, FRG Chancellor Willy Brandt
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September 29, 1973 - Nixon, Kissinger, FRG Chancellor Willy Brandt
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Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)
Nixon Administration Memoranda of Conversations
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European Economic Community. (1958 - 1967)
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File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
MEMORANDUM
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
PARTICIPANTS:
President Nixon
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Secretary of State and
Assistant to the President for National
Security Affairs
Maj. General Brent Scowcroft, Deputy Assistant
to the President for National Security Affairs
Willy Brandt, Chancellor of the Federal Republic
of Germany
Guenther Van Well, Political Director
Amb. Berndt von Staden, FRG Ambassador to
the United States
DATE AND TIME: Saturday, September 29, 1973
11:00 a. m.
PLACE:
The Oval Office
Kissinger: The Chancellor has had a hectic week.
E.O. 12958, SEC. 3.5
NSC MEMO, 11/24/96, STATE DEPT. GUIDELINES State leview 3/8/04
President: I thought you would take Saturday off.
NARA. DATE 3/3/04
Brandt: It's a very nice place.
President: Where are you going from here?
DECLASSIFIED
Brandt: Trout fishing tomorrow, maybe.
Kissinger: The Chancellor gave a powerful speech at the UN.
President: Did all these [press] come with you?
GENALD FORD
Brandt: Not all of them.
BY
CLASSIFIED BY HENRY A. KISSINGER
SCHEDULE OF ENECUTIVE ORDER 11:52
EXEMPT FROM GENERAL DECLASSIFICATION
EXEMPTION CATEGORY 5 (b) (1,3)
AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED ON Imp. to det.
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
SECREF/NODIS/XGDS
*
2.
President: How did you feed them?
What, another group of press? This is more than Gromyko.
Brandt knows this country as well as we do.
Brandt: Not so well. I've been in the West only twice.
Kissinger: Are you going to Florida?
President: It's too late. I stayed for you.
We have to have something important come from this meeting,
all this attention.
[The press leaves. ]
President: As you know, you're always welcome. I'm glad you could
stop here. We could go into any subject you would be interested in:
Europe; bilateral relations. Henry has been so busy he didn't give me
a paper to memorize.
Brandt: On Europe. Some progress toward unity has been made, but not
as fast as should. We are working in NATO. A group of the Nine are
meeting today to work out some of the problems. It could be worked out
soon, but we could take more time.
People in Europe raise the question when will you make your trip?
We shouldn't interfere; that should be your choice -- whenever you think
is the right time. I would prefer a trip this year, but whenever you
think the time is right.
President: The constructive attitude of your government on European
problems has been most helpful when other European governments are
not as enthusiastic or are opposed to the idea of the Year of Europe.
We raised it, but the idea that we are forcing it on Europe as an American
idea is not our intent. The major countries must play a major role, but
we welcome the views of all countries in Europe. We want to disabuse all
of them that we have the idea of objecting to Europe talking it through like
this great new element we brought about.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
3.
Which brings me to a major aspect. When major meetings are
recommended, we should know beforehand how they will come out. We
need substance, not just atmospherics.
That is why preliminary discussions are so important. (1) To get
away from the idea of a dominant U.S., and (2) to pave the way for a
substantive declaration of our mutual interests.
I tried to work out for Henry to go on a short trip to Europe the
middle of October. You are going to Bonn.
Kissinger: I am still working it out with the Foreign Minister. There
is a Council of Ministers meeting in London and I could go for that
purpose.
President: I appreciate your interest in a trip this year. The timing
depends on how the substance goes. The meetings should be highly sub-
stantive. There should be a new spirit of cooperation in the Alliance.
It is important, now that we and you and others are committed to
detente. This is a good period, not a dangerous one. Premature moves
could undercut detente. We see no moves that they are cutting back
but on the contrary, they are stepping it up.
We must move diplomatically, economically, politically, etc., to
confirm our solidarity and sense of purpose. The FRG agrees with this.
If we followed what some people want -- 40% troop reductions -- you
would be sitting there alone.
Brandt: I agree that the tone should be substantive but symbolism also
plays a role.
It is important that if you meet with Brezhnev next year, I meet
with him, Pompidou, and Heath now. Since we are having these contacts,
we need to demonstrate getting together in the West. If I am asked, can
I say the President has a trip under consideration for the time that is best?
President: You could say a trip would be useful when we have made
sufficient progress. My plan upon that could be near the end of the year
or early next. Henry?
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
4.
Kissinger: When you set a date, you are against a wall. The Chancellor
could say that in our meeting today, we are making progress.
Brandt: We could say it after Henry's discussions in Europe.
President: And when he meets with the Foreign Ministers, he will report
to the President. We will analyze it and make definitive plans at that time.
Brandt: I like this formula of deciding after Henry's trip so it gets out of
the idea of bilateralism. I might get out in front of Pompidou, etc.
We hope you will visit more than one capital; we understand the
Mayor of Berlin hopes for a few hours.
President: That is easy.
Brandt: We have the alliance and relations between the Economic Community
and the U.S. and Canada.
As for the alliance, I raised it with the others the other day. France
has a special problem with the alliance. It is in our interest to bring them
in as much as possible. I would propose that Pompidou ask for a meeting
of the heads of the alliance for a meeting in Paris even though the alliance
is in Belgium. I would send a letter today. Under the common chairman-
ship of France and the United States. I will try to convince him and I think
he might accept.
Kissinger: I have the impression they are looking for a way out and would
welcome it.
Brandt: I understand there is a Canadian draft of the declaration in which
you and the French are not committed but I do not think it is a reasonable
basis.
I think we should not dwell too much on principles of democracy. If
we take in too much of this, we get into a discussion of Portugal, Greece,
Turkey. If we concentrate on security, and not repeat the same things we
have already said, but avoid this.
Kissinger: We will submit a U.S. position on NATO in a week or so.
I don't know if it will be the French position but I think France will not
obstruct. So we can make progress. I asked the Dutch not to pontificate
so much.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
5.
It is enough to tie detente to security, MBFR, etc. But as few
ideological points as can get away with. I will have a draft for the
President Monday or Tuesday.
Brandt: This is a fine line. You can't categorize Portugal, Greece,
Turkey.
Kissinger: That is their purpose.
President: Yes, but there has to be some idealism. We can't just talk
hardware but we must find drafters who can put it in without antagonizing
those who have none.
Kissinger: We can put some in the EC declaration where it would be easier.
Brandt: Another problem would be having Papadopoulos at the meeting.
President: Do you know him?
Brandt: No.
Then if I could say a few words on the EC declaration. We are both
competitors and cooperators. If you visited the Economic Community in
Brussels, perhaps after the Paris meeting, you would be welcomed by
the Prime Minister of the country that is chairman, the President of the
Commission, and the Foreign Ministers of the others. You know the draft
was prepared in Copenhagen. Henry thinks it is rather weak, but I think
it is not too difficult to add to it. Perhaps we have made progress today.
Since we got an interesting document, the Canadians are worried they will
pull out of it.
Kissinger: They will be in the NATO part.
President: They can't have it both ways. They want to pull out and yet
not.
Brandt: But if it is a common declaration, the Canadians may want the
Japanese in, which is a little more difficult. But they are coming to Bonn
next week.
Kissinger: I think you will find the Japanese are not prepared to sign
anything very specific, maybe a third declaration.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
is
GENALD
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
6.
President: We can't let them feel left out.
Kissinger: We will give the Germans the Japanese draft they did.
President: Henry, what is your reaction to a meeting with the Community?
I don't stand on protocol, but the problem is more fundamental. I don't
think we can do anything which puts the Economic Community here and the
U.S. here -- as you say, as competitors.
I know the commission expressed the view that I wouldn't see the
Foreign Ministers. That is not the problem -- it is whether in doing it we
have a common position, whether it's here or over there.
Kissinger: The position you instructed us to take, Mr. President, is that
we not be confronted with a position we didn't help formulate and then
confront us with an instructed declaration. This was avoided by this
meeting today. If the NATO meeting is as I described, then I think the
Chancellor's idea would meet requirements, because we would have
negotiated the document beforehand. Personally, I think we could accept
it if the NATO meeting is a summit.
President: How does that sound?
Brandt: We think there should always be bilater al contacts. But you must
be aware that as Europe grows, there will be some things that will be more
difficult than before. If we didn't attempt to work out a common position,
there is no reason for a united Europe. But in the interest of cooperation.
President: In the United States there is the growing feeling of isolation.
Senator Percy was here today. Henry said to me he never voted against
when we asked him to, if we hold him to it. Is that right?
They say it is a peace policy. We are talking with the Soviets, the
Chinese, so we can relax. We mustn't get the feeling in Congress that
Europe is ganging up; there will be terrible price to pay.
The EC we know will be in competition but it would not be a political
confrontation. The world is too small for an American bloc and a European
bloc. That is why we had Jackson here.
Brandt: I don't understand.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
7.
President: He represents the view that the burden is too big. Henry, do
you want to add anything?
Kissinger: The Chancellor asked that Mansfield be at lunch; he will be.
Brandt: I didn't ask, but it's a good idea.
Kissinger: Be that as it may, if he gets into it, you will see a strong
blind urge to cut forces.
We are doing our best to stem it. That is why we want to show
solidarity with Europe to offset this.
On offset, you have Symington and Mansfield who say it's a heavy
drain. With Mansfield, it's a philosophical position.
We will have a public campaign against this. You will see high
posture.
President: I will back a cut, too.
Some of the more thoughtful partisans see the danger of turning to
a fortress America concept in a day when it makes no sense.
The idea of a collective approach to the problems came during the
Democratic administration, and now a number of them are objecting to it.
Kissinger: The older politicans are for us; all the younger ones are
doing it politically. I think we can defeat them when we get on the
offensive. When I am in New York, I will be getting a group together on
this and on defense issues to talk on this.
The more offset we can get, the more it will help.
Brandt: Yes, Shultz will be in Bonn next week. I hope my American
friends will realize we have been helpful on the military side.
President: We completely understand. It is just a political problem here.
In the larger context, the Year of Europe will help. People must be
reminded what NATO does and show it must be changed. Reeducate the
people.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
8.
Kissinger: I can be candid. American newsmen go to Europe and have
interviews and come back and write articles saying Europe is repudiating
us, etc. To the extent we can show solidarity, the better off we are.
Brandt: Sometimes it is difficult. I had with Pompidou the best talk
ever in June, but the press turned it to a confrontation. When I was in
Chicago Thursday, I discussed the alliance with the Council on Foreign
Relations and they were very positive.
President: We need more spokesmen like you.
Brandt: Your country is too big!
Kissinger: The prestige of the Chancellor here is tremendous.
President: Yes, you have a big following here.
All this brings us back to the fundamental problem this year of
danger and promise. If we can put it together, we can have another 25
years to discuss it.
It is good to find that Chou En-lai urges us to stay in Europe.
Why is that, Henry?
Kissinger: He wants us to tie down Soviet troops in Europe.
Brandt: The Chinese ambassador said very good what you said about
German unity.
Kissinger: They are good supporters of NATO and the EC.
President: We appreciate the constructive role which your government
has played. You have to stay close to France and Britain but we appreciate
your cooperation. Our goals are very much together. You know we have a
German-speaking Foreign Minister. How's his German?
Kissinger: I speak no language without an accent!
Brandt: You are becoming an honorary citizen of Fuerth.
President: Where is it?
Kissinger: It's the same relation to Nuremburg as Brooklyn is to New York.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
9/28/73
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