Ask the Scholar
Document scope · 1 page
Scholar
Ask about this object, its catalog metadata, its source description, or the page inventory.
For page-specific OCR and visual context, open one of the page chats.
Scholar Source Context
Document identity
localId
1552801
label
September 24, 1974 - Ford, British Foreign Minister James Callaghan
core
doc
dtoType
document
citationUrl
pageCount
1
Source metadata
id
1552801
sourceUrl
contentType
document
title
September 24, 1974 - Ford, British Foreign Minister James Callaghan
citationUrl
collections
Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)
Ford Administration Memoranda of Conversations
subjects
Greece
Cyprus
Turkey
Great Britain
International economy
thumbnailUrl
largeImageUrl
imageCount
1
hasImages
yes
source
import
hasTranscription
no
Source extras
naId
1552801
coverageEndDate
day
24
logicalDate
1974-09-24
month
9
year
1974
coverageStartDate
day
24
logicalDate
1974-09-24
month
9
year
1974
levelOfDescription
fileUnit
recordType
description
ocrSource
nara-archive
Single page context
seq
1
pageIndex
0
type
document
mediaId
dcbb9acbbc5c13a7
ocrText
File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
MEMORANDUM
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
PARTICIPANTS:
President Gerald R. Ford
James Callaghan, Secretary of State for
Foreign & Commonwealth Affairs
Sir Peter Ramsbotham, British Ambassador
to the United States
Lt. General Brent Scowcroft, Deputy Assistant
to the President for National Security Affairs
Anthony Acland, Private Secretary to
Mr. Callaghan
DATE AND TIME:
Tuesday, September 24, 1974
4:30 p.m.
PLACE:
The Oval Office
The White House
[The press was admitted briefly at the beginning for photographs. ]
Callaghan: I do appreciate your giving up the time. I know what the President's
time is. I congratulate you on assuming the leadership of the free world --
which is what you are.
President: Please give the Prime Minister my best. I got his message about
the elections. I really thought your first speech was great; it was very well
received here.
Callaghan: Thank you. It is my profound conviction. We feel a great weight
has been lifted. The United States can now give the leadership the world needs.
Any time the U.S. speaks with an uncertain voice, we are in trouble.
President: We had some rough times, but we are coming out of it now. When
we get Nelson confirmed, we will get going. Henry has many things planned --
including a Middle East trip soon.
FORD
?
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
LIBRARY
TOP SECRET = XGDS (3)
DECLASSIFIED
CLASSIFIED BY: HENRY A. KISSINGER
E.O. 12958, SEC. 3.5
BY
NSC MEMO, 11/24/98, STATE DEPT. GUIDBLINES state Review 3/9/04
, NARA, DATE 5/5/04
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
-2-
Callaghan: The Europeans are ambivalent about the United States. We want
you to take the lead but are a bit put out when you do. The Soviet Union
accentuated it today. Gromyko today spoke to the U.S., not the UN. This
irritates the others, and you, on occasion, have to take on more than it is worth.
President: We understand, but the American people don't always rise up in
wrath when they are criticized. But we are getting more emotional.
Callaghan: European unity hasn't really gotten going. It is an agreed idea,
but is a little different when you come right down to it. Harold and I see the
Europeans working closer and closer, but not in unison. We see there will be
some states still, but working together.
President: We have those here who are pushing Atlantic Union, but it can't
be sold at least now.
Callaghan: Of course, but people like George Ball tried to push the United
Europe too much. I think it was counterproductive.
Ramsbotham: Anytime the U.S. expresses an opinion on things like this, it
can be SO.
Callaghan: Seriously, we welcome your leadership. We'll kick when we get it
but if you will just listen to us a bit, we'll be all right.
President: We won't be thin-skinned. We politicians learn that.
Callaghan: You ha ve President Truman's picture up; you know what he said.
I thought I was thick-skinned -- but Gunes!
President: What is your appraisal of how things are going on Cyprus?
Callaghan: There can be nothing before the Greek elections. They must first
cut off from the Greek colonels. I think we're thinking the same on this -- to
move slowly.
President: Are Denktash and Clerides doing okay?
Callaghan: Left to themselves, they would solve it. Makarios is the problem.
It has been estimated he would be back in Cyprus in a month and move from far
left to far right. I think he now is a national leader again.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
LIBRARY
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
-3-
Ramsbotham: He is a bit embarrassed by the Soviet support he's getting.
Callaghan: He's not a Communist, but he is able to use them.
Ramsbotham: He is a Byzantine.
President: Is he that skillful?
Ramsbotham: Yes. Only he could have held Cyprus todather 14 years.
Callaghan: But he has blind spots. He can't see the Turks' case -- and they
have one. If he had let the constitution work.
I think Cyprus's chief military
value is to deny it to others, isn't it?
Scowcroft: No, not entirely. It has strategic value in the Eastern Mediterranean.
President: How is the election going?
Callaghan: Too good. We are 12 points ahead. That is too good. We hope to
get back to 4-5 points, then the people will turn out.
We have a list of the important issues. Ted Heath made as his first
point "Who will govern? " and is pushing for a government of national unity.
The issues are prices, housing, pensions. The Common Market is Number 9
or 10; the health services are coming up.
President: That is growing in this country, one way or another.
Callaghan: The only problem is that people don't like the deduction from their
pay packet. But we think it worth fighting -- that this is the way to go on health
and pensions.
President: It still is an issue of principle here.
Callaghan: It was with us in '47, but not even the doctors object now.
President: The AMA is opposed; there is a formidable opposition.
Callaghan: One point to make on inflation. We are watching your activities
closely. As an outsider, let me say: Your people will be telling you of the
consequences of your actions in the U.S. They won't tell you of the indirect
FORD
?
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERADO
LIBRARY
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
-4-
effects on other countries an d the feedback on you. It happened the last time
you had a near recession -- it was a full recession in Europe. What you do
will have a severe impact in the world and especially in Europe.
President: In my opening statement I said we wouldn't take unilateral action
but would consult with our friends. We have no intention of taking actions
which would have serious impact on you.
Callaghan: If Burns keeps money too tight and interest too high, that would
hurt.
President: There was a lot of criticism of Burns at the first meetings, and
he has eased things a bit.
Callaghan: There is such a convergence of political and economic questions.
The Soviets are backward on this. That is why I am pleased about the Camp
David meeting this weekend.
President: If they can't get progress in that environment, it can't be done.
Callaghan: I think the emergency oil program is imaginative. I think it is
good. We don't want to confront them now, but this mechanism is a goodidea.
The central bank mechanisms are not sufficient any more.
President: We don't want another embargo. Maybe after the North Sea
and Alaska come into production, we can risk it, but not now.
Callaghan: I think they are surprised at their strength and will use it more
sparingly.
I would like to have explored with the Arabs the recycling issue. We
need an intermediary body which can guarantee their money, then we can lend
it out where it is needed.
President: Are they getting more sophisticated in handling finances?
Callaghan: Yes, they have set up a 5-bank consortium in London. But that
is too small to handle the sums. We have to devise a way to sop up the funds
before they use them in ways we wouldn't like. There ought to be a mechanism
to get the money to Africa, and so on, where it is needed, but to assure the
Arabs the security of the money and the interest.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
-5-
It is the medium-size nations who will run amok -- Greece, India,
Cyprus. We must work on the NPT or else India and the other will run amok
President: How long have you been in politics?
Callaghan: Since 1945.
President: I started in 1948, when Truman surprised everyone. I supported
Internationalism against an isolationist -- even in the heartland of the Midwest
and we won handily.
Callaghan: Why did Kennedy withdraw?
President: Several things. One, what happened to his brothers; two, his wife;
three, his son; four, the rush of articles on Chappaquidick. It would have been
an issue. Adding it all up -- the key in what he said is he would still be young
enough in 1984.
Callaghan: Do you think there is a natural Democratic majority in Congress?
President: To some extent, but growing affluence and the move to the suburbs
are modifying that. The polls show that there is growing conservatism.
Callaghan: How does a Republican President handle a Democratic Congress?
It is inhibiting?
President: In some ways. I had a dinner with 27 last night. I have good
relations with the Democratic leadership. Do you have that support?
Callaghan: Not the same way, but personalities play a big role.
President: We do well when there is not a philosophical difference.
Callaghan: You do this more openly than we. We do some, but all of it is
behind the scenes.
President: We do it openly. I have joint groups to breakfast, and soon.
Callaghan: These questions of handling people are fascinating. Your
Con stitution is fascinating.
FORD
&
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
-6-
President: We tried some new provisions!
Callaghan: The marvelous thing is how they worked. What a tough thing
for you. How is President Nixon?
President: He is doing all right. I talked to him ten days ago. He is very
interested in foreign affairs.
*
Callaghan: It is very nice to have talked with you.
President: Likewise. I am looking forward to meeting the Prime Minister.
Callaghan: I wish you success -- for your and our sakes.
President: I am enjoying it.
Callaghan: Anything we can do, we would be happy to try.
President: Some of our critics may say differently, but Secretary Kissinger
has at least as strong a role with me as before. You tell everyone that is the way
it is and the way it will stay.
Callaghan: I will. There are people who will do that -- they have between
him and me.
On Cyprus, you got a lot of criticism. But we couldn't have stopped
the Turks, whatever he did. I reproach myself for not bringing a proposal
forward earlier, but no one could have stopped the Turks.
President: Is it going to be OK?
Callaghan: If the Turks are willing to reduce their troops and the Greeks will
agree to a federal solution and its implications, we will be on the way.
[The meeting ended. ]
FORD
a
GERALD
LIBRARY
PI
2
24 Sept 74
timall Two
(Pres)
C
I dr apprec given times I how what P time is,
I you on leadership of for world wh in
in whit you and.
P
Please give Pan my best. GST his my alemt in this.
Reality that you first soperch was grent, it was my carel
recd here,
C
Thank you It is reas proformed dountries W feel
a Grot wight lift - US. in ership
world weeds. any this US aptraw inventise inis,
are on in trankle
P
wel had some saugh and, but in coming and of at
has when our gt Whom compinal, and will beget.
going. Herry has Things planned- ME have
I
E has have ambrident about US. we next you
to cats - lend but over a but part ant whenger clo.
In sv acceptanced it today. Garmans today 7 th
A us. ent. UN. you This instructions outs - you
an reasin have to the in were them it is with.
P
LUe im ustend, but am people ant always - in
my in with when are antigned. But the
EM getty nne enother.
el
E wrs inity husn't regulty getter pring- It isce germal
iba. but 14 a little different when you come ugent
drawn to it, Hundly & see Erno when class -
chan, but wrt we see same states still,
but writing toyata
P
use have there pusling attention Unin, hat
crut h and at boot 100
c)
Ofcance, but people hhe George Ball Triel & presh
C Unitil Emo TRN much I think it woo
nonstrypender time.
R
Group true US express an giving an ctring who
this, it an h 10
FORD
DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958, SEC. 3.5
NSC MEMO, 11/24/98, STATE DEPT. GUIDELINES state leview3/9/04
GERALD a
BY. in
NARA, DATE 5/5/04
e
Simmly, are where your lendership, will kith ortin
wt got it but of form will part listen to us a
list will beall njht
P
3 & won't he thin shirmed. w e polition been
that.
C
yan hand up. you hear what hr
kmd. Itht I thrust Thrived - but Cumb |
P
what your of praind
C
hrting before Guh elictric They not ,t It ent
off from c Guk Calorals. 2 think we us Thinki c s and
or this nurse slowly
P
at and Dinktown a Chinks doing ok
C
h efth them selves they world matants is
c problem. It here intrinated he would he lrab he Eyans
on a month σ more from for byth for thinght-
I thib he mer in a hat hadreyou
R
He a but embasioned by Sor support he getting
C
He met a emot, but able to use it them.
R
He a By gantine
P
Is he that
R
Yes, Only he could have hold by pross high 14 years
(
But he has Hind of to- he can't to seic C Tuck care-
& they home one. If he had we C constatution creek
& thing expens chip mil- whe is a ding deny A taltnes
isn't nt?
Scon
No, not entirely -San statycuster in EMed
P
How electric
e
Too good. we 12 points aleat, That in too yord. Hope
& get bnck E 4-5 quits, they C progravill true ant.
we have list of important resuls
Tel Health work his form 12t paint who will your
is proting for govt of nath unity The using one pinks,
homaning, persion Course 02 10, health
family uning up.
Befit
P
That grown in this country, one any or another
C
Only pure is that people dont like c dednetion from c
100 Pa Wt. But are think it worth proferty-that this any
to yo on worth 1 pension
R
It still and absout of periods here
cl
Was w/no in '+7 but int even C doetns object me.
P
AM A of posedi them a presendable offorition
C
One point on implation. We watching your a tiritis almety.
as antailer, your people will he talking 50 of corrarpeanes
of fan action on US. They cront tell you of indicent
effects on other entries + fredback on you. Joh H
happened Inst time you had was unroin = it cros
a faull Mission in Em. What yendo
will have a severe import inc world log in Ema.
P
In my opening statement I said un wouldn't tab
investment action but and ement w/om prints. We
hour me intention fluting artins which trinkly have
serims injact anyon
C
If Bmms hey enough too tight K interest TW high, that
would hut
P
There was but of critics of Bruns at 12t meltings r he
has eased thing a but.
e
There is mha converyouse D pol c economic prastine.
The Sms one behind backward on this. That why I plased
about C.D. onty this unhard
P
If Chey can't get progress in that invisor, it cunt be drus
C
2 think- eme pil preg invaginative think it is
good. We dnit wonth import then hmw, but this
The is good relie. The central hunk
P
michanism and not sof- any have
We dnit want wither entorgo. Englu often brith
Sra + alusha, but and me
@
I Think they tempersed at their strength & will use it
hour sparracy
I would lite explored W/c Chols C my ching issue-
FORD
&
1217
We wed in interneting organ lite
bray which can
1
and general thin money, then and can and at mided another
P
an chry getting more copins, in handling frimes
C
Yes they have set up 5 bank emertrin in
But that two small A handle c sums we have
to durise a way to any p ey c this frunds before
they use then in woys are wouldn't his
There anylith he Un a muchanism to get C money
to etc where needed, but asome c arabo
the security of morey Y internal
It medium size nations run amok.
Guu, India, C your
as must workere NP or Intia others will men
ammuk.
P
Ham long you here in points
J
Since 45
P
I starts in 48, when Themas surprised anyone
& Imported # Intron against on isolations - who
in c hearthand of uniluest + are wen for handily
e)
why Kenaruh within
a
Smeral things. US His brothers forte (2) wife (3) Sern (4) Rush
of anticles on Chappaynchik. It would have here on issue
it all my- the buy in what he suid is he mould
still he your sengh in 84.
I
Do you think are is notical demo mingsity in City.
P
Some extent, but pun affluence x was X submits
is minding What. Palls them there is germing
F
How dress a Repeach two Emele duno eny. sait intertisty
P
In soul worp? Had a brines or/ 27 last ingt, I have
gonl relations orl demo leadriship. Do you have that
support?
(
Wt c some any, but personalities May a big rule.
Y
(
We de well which then nota this. dif.
at you do this more ciginity them we. W 1 do seemal
but all behind C dunes.
FORD
&
GERALD
Enstinal
P atteridence at Winston Churchill dinner,
P
We du it ping. I have juint groups to breatment, its.
@
Three pursting of hmeking people us Passenting your
limst is
P
We this some hur pressions
c
The members thing is how they unhere. whate
tough thing forgon H in is Po him.
P
He is dring allerght. & lumbed to him 10 days ago the
my intented in For allans.
P
Mis to have United or/you
P
cheimal, Laking forward to mething PM-
A
P
wish you directs for your & am fame.
Jungary it
c
P
any they 44 lund 0, me would he tappy A try.
Surve an criting my the Em depends, butk has at
liost er stay a wh is W one as hope. you hell
everyone that is any it is &C way it will toy
(
I will. Them and people who will do Chat- they home
hato his + me.
On Erypons just lint of critine But he under't hown
Hrppe L Tenbs whatever he did. Irepronch myself
for not bringing frop sol provand enher, but word
comld have stopped C Tenks
P
of
Gring to h sk?
C
of the Tush and willing to whole them trops and the
Guhs will a you 8 a fideral sohutine auditions employer
we write be on the arm,
FORD
?
GERALD
LIBRARY