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February 19, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger
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February 19, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger
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Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)
Ford Administration Memoranda of Conversations
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Israel
Syria
Egypt
Soviet Union
Arms transfers
Jews
Middle East conflicts
United States-Soviet relations
Voyages and travels
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1975
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1975-02-19
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1975
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File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
MEMORANDUM
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
PARTICIPANTS:
President Gerald R. Ford
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Secretary of State
and Assistant to the President
for National Security Affairs
Lt. General Brent Scowcroft, Deputy Assistant
to the President for National Security Affairs
DATE AND TIME:
Wednesday, February 19, 1975
4:10 - 5:40 p.m.
PLACE:
The Oval Office
The White House
SUBJECT:
Secretary Kissinger's Report on His Trip
to the Middle East and Europe
[The press was in briefly, and then dismissed.
3/11/04
Kissinger: Gromyko was very reluctant to talk about his trip. Something
is funny. I think Congress has ripped it, and it was the reaction here to
Vladivostok which did it. They had thought they were doing you a favor.
Wilson said they said they wonder whether there is anyone in the U.S.
who can make a binding commitment.
FORD
5/13/04
a
The group moved to seats at the President's desk. ]
The President: I appreciate being kept up to date.
GERALD
DECLASSIFIED
Kissinger: It is almost too much -- Israeli obstructionism, and Syrian,
Saudi, and Soviet as well.
Everybody abroad appreciates what you said in your speech. You are
coming on as a strong courageous leader.
CLASSIFIED BY Henry A. Kissinger
EXEMPT FROM GENERAL DECLASSIFICATION
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
SCHEDULE OF EXECUTIVE ORDER 11652
TEMPTION CATEGORY 5 (b) (1,3)
AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED ON Imp. to det.
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
2
I talked to Giscard about it. He started high, fell off and now is recover-
ing some (to 59 percent) now. He is a tremendous supporter of yours --
as is Wilson. Sauvagnargues said after dinner, "This is the spirit of
Martinique. They are really strong now for the new spirit."
My travelling press are scared to death about what is happening to the
U.S. They even said Anderson should be replaced -- that shows they
are worried. We have to be careful what I tell the leaders because this
could blow up.
The Israeli Government is weak. Rabin is okay but he is afraid to move
and he is afraid of Peres. Allon wants to move in the right direction.
I had a two-hour lunch with Golda. She is a peasant and hates to give up
the land. I could get her though, if she was the Prime Minister. The
Cabinet is unbelievable. Rabin's weakness is shown by the fact that I
had to have lunch with the Cabinet to win them over.
Sadat is a big man. If we pull this off, we should get him right over here.
He is very worried -- but he didn't complain about his troubles.
We had a two-hour talk alone and I said we had to have something for
Israel.
If we will give them a letter that Israel won't attack Syria or any of its
neighbors, he won't attack Israel.
The President: Would that include Lebanon?
Kissinger: That is a problem -- I have to think of that.
On duration, he will extend UNEF a year and agree beforehand to an
extension. The Soviet Union could veto it. But he will agree to joint
Egyptian-Israeli inspection teams.
The Israelis have agreed to the oil fields but not yet the passes.
The President: Do they want an indemnity?
Kissinger: It will cost us.
FORD
?
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
3
You can't imagine the monomania, the hysteria in Israel. There is no
sense of gratitude. They demand we put our whole policy in hock to
them.
The President: Did they raise MATMON B?
Kissinger: I said I wouldn't discuss until we saw what happened. I said
we would go to Geneva but we would have to make proposals -- that
cooled them.
If we go to Geneva with a failure, we must consider whether not to make
an end of it.
The President: Did you see Dayan?
Kissinger: No. The whole Cabinet is opposed. They are vultures. You
have to sympathize though, because they have seen their world position
deteriorate to just us.
Sadat pleaded for some sort of arms just so he could show his military.
[There was discussion of a list and C-130s.]
The President: Asad?
Kissinger: If Asad could get something on the Golan, you would never
hear of Geneva again.
You would like Asad. The Syrians and the Israelis are much alike.
Asad's basic problem is he has lost 15, 000 men in the war and hasn't
gotten an inch. If Egypt makes big progress, he will look like a sucker
to his people.
[When Asad and Nixon had their conversation last year, Nixon finally
agreed to the '67 borders.]
GERALD
BRARY
I asked Asad what he needed. He said'Everything. " I said, 'What will
you give for it? 11 He said, "Good will. " I said you don't get good will
for services already rendered.
It is almost impossible to move because of the Israeli villages, but if we
could, we would have Geneva off our back for a year. That is what the
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
4
Soviets are afraid of. I made noises about a simultaneous step, but Asad
knew.
Faisal also supported a simultaneous step. If he sticks to it, we can't
pull it off. We may have to promise Sadat a follow-on step with Syria.
If Israel had a great leader, they would move jointly with Egypt and Syria
and get the PLO off their back. Syria didn't mention the PLO.
If Faisalgets exercised, we have a problem. At a minimum he would need
a letter that you would make an effort with Syria. As a duplicitous move,
we could go to Geneva for a Syrian move and have it fail.
The President: You had been concerned whether Israel was setting us
up.
Kissinger: I changed my mind. I think Rabin wants a move. Gur made
a good statement that Israeli security didn't depend on any particular
topography.
But they are in such a difficult domestic situation they could even prefer
to go to Geneva and be raped.
The President: How about Likud?
Kissinger: They just want us to be tough. This is where the Jewish
leaders are hurting us. They are leading to anti-Semitism.
The President: Javits told me we should make some statement about
discrimination in banking.
Kissinger: That we should do.
The Likud is sort of Fascist. Like Perle. That reminds me Jackson
is making an issue about Romania. He is insisting no MFN without a
specific number on emigration. I think we shouldn't buy it -- let him
kill it.
If I told the Soviet Union we favored a step with both Egypt and Syria,
but would only do Egypt separately and do Syria at Geneva, that would
get Faisal off our back. To do it ourselves would be a horrible negotia-
tion and a confrontation with Israel.
FORD
?
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
LIBRARY
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
5
The President: I don't think we can divert you that long.
Kissinger: Schmidt said he could not have a depression, and if there was
a Middle East war which threatened it, he would have to oppose us. He
(when he recovers) will make a speech of support for your energy policy.
Also a statement of support for the necessity for your strong leadership.
[Javits calls. The President promises a statement against banking dis-
crimination.
[Discussion of tilt toward gasoline.]
The President: Javits asked for a little more tilt than was talked about
last night. We can go to 6.5 or 6.6. Make a note of this, Brent. I
have a feeling we will lost Sparkman.
Kissinger: Maybe not on a veto.
The President: They told me Pastore had a program and Wright had a
program. They don't -- it is a mishmash and the House and Senate version
don't match.
Kissinger: The Senate is perceived around the world as a menace. We
look like the Fourth Republic. The Legislative Branch can't run detarted
policy.
The President: You remember Case saying we would switch if the New
York Times did? He hadn't seen it. I won it. I want it sent to him and
Sparkman.
Kissinger: On the Soviets. They have noticeably cooled. They didn't
give us a date for the Brezhnev visit. We gave a little on CSCE and they
merchandized it in their tawdry way. We have hooks to keep them on
the reservation with CSCE and the summit, but the Europeans are going
to move to pal up with them. Wilson was floating on air -- he is a pal.
They are giving the Soviets $2.5 billion in credits; the French are too.
And none of it is tied to projects.
The President: Can you mention it tomorrow?
Kissinger: They are also worried about the Chinese. Gromyko asked
me if we would sign a security treaty with the Chinese. The change in
our relations is just a nuance -- they are still good.
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
6
We could have gotten 38, 000 Jews out, but now Gromyko won't promise
any figure at all.
On Vladivostok, we are still okay. I also gave him Option III. He liked
that very much. I pointed out that the effect would be a ceiling even if
only one plane is removed.
I thought maybe we should avoid two meetings close together and have
CSCE in July and the summit in September.
The President: That may give us more time on MBFR.
Kissinger: We can work that out as things develop.
On energy, I wasn't aware of Treasury objections. Anyway, I don't care
about the floor price -- just protected prices however it is done.
I talked with Yamani. The Saudis suggested a barter deal oil for
aircraft so there is no overt decrease in price. He said, "If you
go to a consumer-producer conference with a deal with a producer, you
don't care if the Europeans double-cross you, because you will have a
deal. "
The President: How about the European reaction?
Kissinger: The British have really already done the same. The Europeans
will act just like at the Washington Energy Conference. We will be making
a deal, aside from oil, of about $10 billion with Iran. We could make a
barter deal with him. Treasury would be a problem -- they are against it.
This is playing it rough. But if we aren't tough, we will be paying for
alternative sources and the Europeans and Japanese will get the benefits.
Clements and Brown should go to Saudi Arabia. Schlesinger will be a
problem but he is not trustworthy.
The President: Won't Schlesinger talk about a conflict of interest?
Kissinger: Schmidt is furious about Schlesinger talking to the CDU
Parliamentarians. He is sending you a letter.
FORD
&
SBGRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
LIBRARY
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
7
The President: This Aid amendment. I will do it, but don't you think
we should go to Passman and say he has to go along on Indochina?
If this comes down with Israel and not Vietnam, I will veto.
Kissinger: What'shall I do at the breakfast?
The President: I would just give a review.
Kissinger: I will also hit the Turkish thing.
We shouldn't mention oil deals. For that, get Passman down here after
the Leadership meeting.
FORD
R
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
LIBRAST
JPIK 19 Feb 15
2
Widnesday
$ 10.5:40 pm
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FORD
?
DECLASSIFIED
NSC MEMO, 11/24/98, E.O. 12958, STATE SEC. DEPT. 3.6 GUIDELINES state liview 3/11/04
GERALD
BY the
NARA. DATE 5/13/04
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FORD
&
the
GERALD