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March 27, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger, Former FRG Chancellor Willy Brandt
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1553005
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March 27, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger, Former FRG Chancellor Willy Brandt
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Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)
Ford Administration Memoranda of Conversations
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Portugal
Israel
Turkey
Egypt
Germany (West)
Arms transfers
Middle East conflicts
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
Helsinki Agreement, 1975
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27
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1975-03-27
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1975
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27
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1975-03-27
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3
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1975
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File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
MEMORANDUM
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
DECLASSIFIED
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
E.O. 12958 Sec. 3.6
MR 01-39, #10; at. lts recd 7/30/01
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
By dal NARA, Date 9/25/01
PARTICIPANTS:
Willy Brandt, Former Chancellor of the Federal
Republic of Germany
President Ford
Amb. Berndt Von Staden, Federal Republic of
Germany Ambassador to the United States
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Secretary of State and
Assistant to the President for National Security
Affairs
Lt. General Brent Scowcroft, Deputy Assistant
to the President for National Security Affairs
DATE AND TIME:
Thursday, March 27, 1975
FORM
11:00 a.m.
?
PLACE:
The Oval Office
GERALD
The White House
SUBJECT:
Portugal; Middle East; Turkey; CSCE;
Southeast Asia
President: It is delightful to have you here. I had a fine opportunity to
get to know the Chancellor. We talked economics, the situation in Europe,
broad topics. We had a good opportunity to talk substance and to get
acquainted.
I know you are interested in Portugal. I would appreciate your
observations.
Brandt: The last word I have is that the new government has been formed
but they haven't gone as far as might have been feared. Soares, with
whom we Socialists have ties, is still in the Cabinet, as Minister without
portfolio, so he can be in the campaign. Also, the Minister of Interior
stayed in his post -- that is important to the elections. We shouldn't give
up. The question is what kind of moral and material help we can give.
HENRY A. KISSINGER
ASSIFIED BY
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
EXEMPT FROM GENERAL DECLASSIFICATION
SCHEDULE OF EXECUTIVE ORDER 11652
EXEMPTION CATEGORY 5 (B), (1, 3)
AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED ON Imp. to det.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
2.
We have done a little. The Dutch did some and the Swedes did. I plan to
get a little group of officers together to try to make contacts.
President: Are the military in the grip of the Communists?
Brandt: Some are Communists, some are Social Revolutionaries. Like
Peron. There are Cubans among them. The Soviet Union may not be
playing so critical a role. They may be playing a more minor role.
Kissinger: But wouldn't it be even harder to manage if they had a rabid
left dictatorship?
Brandt: It's difficult to say, but it may go like Finland. They had a
difficult period but got the Communists out eventually.
President: What effect will the election have?
Brandt: The Socialists will be stronger than the Communists if they don't
falsify the results. They plus the PDP will be much stronger. Soares
says he will be tough and if he doesn't get represented proportionally,
he will go underground. But the Revolutionary Council looks like it will
continue to play a dominant role.
President: What will be the parliamentary role?
Brandt: Their main task will be to draft a Constitution. Then they will
have elections for parliament.
President: I have read that Cunhal is very able.
Brandt: He seems to be able and may be relatively independent vis-a-vis
the Soviet Union.
President: It would certainly complicate our situation in NATO.
Kissinger: The Portuguese representative will also get MBFR information
when it goes to the NAC.
President: I appreciate Schmidt's phone call. We certainly are willing to
work with you.
Brandt: I talked to the Latin Americans about this, and the Venezuelans
and Mexicans were very interested. They were concerned about the
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD LIBRARY a FORD
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
3.
influence on Spain. Spain is very different from Portugal, but it could have
an impact. We would like to see a gradual evolution in Spain and I can
eventually see them in the European Community.
President: Let's talk a bit about the Middle East. We are disappointed in
the Middle East, naturally. We made a massive effort which would have
gone a long way toward peace. I am not optimistic about what may happen
at Geneva. I think Israel may be disappointed at the prospects of Geneva.
Any help you can give
Brandt: I don't know when I will see any of them. Based on my talks with
Allon, I thought there would be more flexibility.
President: We did too. I spoke with Rabin, with Allon, with Mrs. Meir, and
we had the same impression. We can see a difficult situation in Geneva.
Kissinger: I told Mr. Brandt to see if he and Schmidt can try to induce
flexibility of mind. They have thwarted us and now they seem to be doing
the same with Geneva -- to return to the period after the '67 war. That would
mean a war.
President: Stalemate certainly would enhance the chances of war, with all
the dangers of a confrontation, a new embargo.
We must seek to avoid a stalemate and we may be forced into a
different relationship with Israel. We have to look to our self-interests.
Brandt: Has Sadat been weakened?
President: I think he will have to align himself more with the other Arabs.
If he does that, he may be all right.
Kissinger: We heard he is likely to suffer because of his orientation with
us. Even if he moves to the radicals, they all know it is his second
choice.
Brandt: I met with him and was amazed at how close he feels to the United
States. He said he had daily contact with two leaders Boumedienne and
Faisal. Now one is dead. The Vice President is there now.
President: Yes. He met there with Sadat. We feel we have a very
constructive relationship with him.
FORD
&
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALO
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
4.
Brandt: I thought he was in danger of forgetting there was another great
power.
President: We are also concerned about Turkey. We are doing what we
can but Congress is difficult. If Turkey moves away from NATO it would
be very serious.
Kissinger: Germany has many Turks working there.
Brandt: I met with Ecevit. He was flexible but he said that as time goes
on it is more and more difficult to reduce the Turkish area of Cyprus.
He thinks the Greeks now understand that there will be only two zones,
not cantons. That is important -- that, and some reduction of the zone.
President: What is it now -- about 40 percent?
Kissinger: Bitsios said they would settle for 20-28 percent. The Turks
are willing to go to 30-35 percent. We are close, but as long as they think
they can run to Congress
Brandt: Ecevit told Waldheim he would settle for 30 percent.
Kissinger: If Ecevit were Prime Minister it would be settled in one month.
The problem is that only the Parliament can dissolve itself.
Von Staden: It's similar to our structure.
President: They have more than five major parties.
Kissinger: They have two major fairly balanced ones and some minor ones.
Ecevit gambled and lost last fall. They were all afraid of his popularity
and blocked him.
President: We are hamstrung because of the aid cutoff. I can't certify that
there has been progress and the cutoff has taken place. The Greek
opposition is very vocal and there are some tough Congressmen. I think
we can get something through the Senate but it looks impossible right now
in the House.
What are your thoughts on CSCE?
Brandt: My feelings are that we should bring it to a conclusion. It has
been a good exercise -- developing positions and discussing with the other
a
FORD
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
LIBRARY
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
5.
side in a way I wouldn't have thought possible. This is one more way which
links the United States and Canada to Europe, in a way that is not derived
from the last war. This shows that the United States, like the Soviet
Union, is a European power, not just as a result of World War II. The
Soviet Union talks about a permanent secretariat. The West isn't in
favor of that, but I would recommend -- and my Government agrees, I
think -- that after one or two years the Foreign Ministers should meet to
review the results of the agreement.
Kissinger: We are basically in favor.
Brandt: It gives the Communists something to work for.
Kissinger: It puts pressure on them not to be intransigent.
Brandt: I would move it from Helsinki to Vienna also. It would be less under
Soviet influence.
President: We would appreciate any help with Israel. It is a difficult
period and we have to be firm. Any help to avoid stalemate will be
helpful.
Brandt: May I make one remark on Southeast Asia? It is very hard to make
up my mind on what is right, but you should know that whichever way you
decide, it would not influence our belief in the vitality of the United States
and its institutions.
President: It is a very difficult situation. It is a tragedy for those of us
who have supported President Johnson and President Nixon. I haven't made
a decision, but my feeling is to be strong. On a worldwide basis, too.
FORD
?
GERALD
LIBRARY
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
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