Ask the Scholar

{
    "localId": "498693963",
    "label": "February 1-5, 1973",
    "core": "doc",
    "dtoType": "document",
    "citationUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/498693963"
}

{
    "id": "498693963",
    "sourceUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/498693963",
    "contentType": "document",
    "title": "February 1-5, 1973",
    "citationUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/498693963",
    "collections": [
        "National Security Files (Nixon Administration)",
        "Henry A. Kissinger Telephone Conversation Transcripts (Telcons)"
    ],
    "iiifBase": "https://s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/nixon/rn-nsf/579113/Batch0002/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-18-06/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-18-06-001.jpg",
    "thumbnailUrl": "https://s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/nixon/rn-nsf/579113/Batch0002/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-18-06/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-18-06-001.jpg",
    "largeImageUrl": "https://s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/nixon/rn-nsf/579113/Batch0002/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-18-06/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-18-06-001.jpg",
    "imageCount": 87,
    "hasImages": true,
    "source": "import",
    "hasTranscription": false
}

{
    "url": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/498693963",
    "naId": 498693963,
    "levelOfDescription": "fileUnit",
    "recordType": "description",
    "ocrSource": "nara-archive"
}

{
    "seq": 87,
    "pageIndex": 0,
    "type": "document",
    "url": "https://s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/nixon/rn-nsf/579113/Batch0002/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-18-06/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-18-06.pdf",
    "mediaId": "b0efef93b14192e0",
    "ocrText": "DOCUMENT WITHDRAWAL RECORD [NIXON PROJECT]\nDOCUMENT\nDOCUMENT\nNUMBER\nTYPE\nSUBJECT/TITLE OR CORRESPONDENTS\nDATE\nRESTRICTION\nI\nTelcon\nHAK I Schlesings\n- - 2pp\n2/2/73\nB\n2\nTelcon\nHAK/ Trewitt\n- 1pg\nSANITIZED\n2/5/73\nD\nFILE GROUP TITLE\nBOX NUMBER\nHAK Celephin Conserstin\nCOm File\n18\nFOLDER TITLE\n1973- 1-5 Feb,\n6\nRESTRICTION CODES\nA. Release would violate a Federal statute or Agency Policy.\nE. Release would disclose trade secrets or confidential commercial or\nB. National security classified information.\nfinancial information.\nC. Pending or approved claim that release would violate an individual's\nF. Release would disclose investigatory information compiled for law\nrights.\nenforcement purposes.\nD. Release would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of privacy\nG. Withdrawn and return private and personal material.\nor a libel of a living person.\nH. Withdrawn and returned non-historical material.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nNATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION\nDECLASSIFIED\nNA 14021 (4-85)\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nMr. Kissinger/Sec. Shultz\n2/1/73\n9:35\na.m.\nHK:\nGeorge?\nGS:\nHi, Henry. Say yesterday, Dobrynin called here and wanted very\nmuch to come and see me or have me come tolunch or what not--\nHK:\nWhy don't you-- -\nGS:\nAnd it was checked through the NSC as I understand it and heis\nnow scheduled to come over heretomorrow sometime-\nHK:\nOkay.\nGS:\nNow that is something you approve of--\nHK:\nI approve of it yes.\nGS:\nAnd what -\nHK:\nAnother possibility is I am having breakfast with Dobrynin you\ncould go in onthat if you wanted to - -\nGS:\nThat's tomorrow?\nHK:\nYes. It means, you would have to listen to a lot of stuff that isn't\nin your field. Which doesn't both me.\nI have no objection whatever\nto having him come see you.\nGS:\nI just want to be sure we are on theright line as far as the - he want\nto talk about the oil and gas business - at this point as far as I know\nthere is no decision on whether or not I am going to be chairman of\nthis commission.\nHK:\nYes, you are going to be chairman of that commission.\nGS:\nO - - The thing that Peterson was the chairman of that you and I--\nHK:\nYou will be chairman of that commission. I have already told the\nRussians you would be chairman of that commission, so you are going\nto be chairman. Unless you don't want to be.\nHK:\nWe just haven't done the bureaucratic work--no, no you will be chairma\n--I - have talked to the President of it.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nGS:\nNow our line on the oil and gas deal is that we are anxious to pursue\nit aggressively and we think there are lot of facts to be determined\nas yet but we are interested and moving and as soon as we get our-\nselves organizzed, reorganized right with our companies, we are in\nmotion and\nHK:\nAnd we are making major efforts to organize ourselves. You must\nknow that Connally is seeing him today, claiming that he represents\nthe organization.\nGS:\nThe private organization\nFor the whole United States.\nHK:\nHe represents a consortium of all interests with private organizations.\nI told what he did in his private capacity was his business, but he\ncouldn't sayhe represented us.\nGS:\nOkay.\nHK:\nI just want you to be aware of that.\nGS:\nYeh. It might be a littlier easier in my first meeting with Dborynin\nif I do come to your breakfast.\nHK:\nIf you come to my breakfast, do you mind if we do a lot of our other\nwork first and then turn to yours it wouldn't hurt because that would\nx give you a feel forwhat we do is that okay?\n1\nGS:\neh, allrgith. What time is your breakfast--\nHK:\n8:15 a. m. in the Map Room in the White House\nGS:\nAll right. I 11 be there. Now on these two dinners if I would--\nsince I am not on the invitation list, I'd prefer not to be inserted\nat this point and I don't want to be in the posture of giving a hoot about\nit for that-\nHK:\nNo, no, no you know how these things are done, it's stupidity, not\nill will.\nGS:\nAt this point, I am scheduled to go to dinner tonight with John\nSparkman who is chairman of the banking committee an important\ncommittee--\nHK:\nHow about tomorrow in Camp David --no one knows who is on that list.\nGS:\nI am scheduled to go to a Nicks/Bullitts Basketball game with people\nfrom the Finance Committee--and the Ways and Means Committee\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 3\n(laughs) so it's all a big lobbying activity, that we 've organized\nhere in the Treasury.\nHK:\nShould I drop both of theideas - -\nGS:\nWhay don't you just drop it and I don't-\nHK:\nI'll keep an eye on it in the future George--Rose Woods does these\nidiot things\nGS:\nThe only concern that Ihave is that at some point, I will\ntravel around Euuope and people will think--people are supposed\nto think that I am involved in these things\nHK:\nYou should as a matter of course be invited to every State Dinner\nfor foreign guests. Because after all you are handling the foreign\neconomic part.\nGS:\nI think that' S right. It has been a startling omission - -at this point,\nI don't like to be in the position of complaining about such stuff,\nbecause I feel like I am more like Bill Rogers which I m not.\nHK:\nNo one is ever going to mistake you for Bill Rogers - I'll take care ofit.\nHK:\nWhy aren t you at the prayer breakfast?\nGS:\nI just returned from the prayer breakfast -\nHK:\nOkay, I'm just establishing my alibi - was I missed?\nGS:\nEverybody was looking around for you and there were several psuedo-\nKissinger's around with wigs and glasees trying to masquerade as you.\nNobody was fooled. I. earns gave, I thought, to rather outstanding\nstrong statement, as he is capable of doing, and the President was\nvery good.\nHK:\nGood.\nGS:\nOkay, we will see you at breakfast tomorrow.\nHK:\nRight.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELECON\nRichard Neustadt\n2/1/73 12:35 p.m.\nN: Listen I have one small specific to bother you about. Lot of\nother things like I think your press conference was superb, really\nsuperb. They've all been saying it. I have been an admirer of all\nthree, but the last was a glorious thing to have accomplished. You\nknow my sentiments about Jim Wilson. The specific is that I have\nhad a letter from David Klein whom I will identify in a minute.\nK: No, I know him.\nN: Saying he is now ready to retire and what's going on in academia.\nI wanted you to know these thoughts of his and to tell you that in *6\n1963 - 65 when he was Mac's Europe man I thought he was splendid.\nK: I always thought very highly of him.\nN: I don't think the government ought to let him go.\nK: I talked about him to Alex Johnson to get him into the SALT talks\nbut if that doesn't work I'll talk to him. We should keep him in the\ngovernment.\nN: Okay, then this is a redundant call then.\nK: No, I wanted to talk to you. When will la you be coming down?\nN: Spring, there's nothing to bring me until then.\nK: Well let me see if I can bring you. I would like to talk to you\nafter I'm back from Hanoi.\nN: You let me know and I'll come.\nK: Good. I have to go, the President's calling.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nPresident/Kissinger\n12:40 p.m. - 2/1/73\nK:\nMr. President.\nP:\nHenry, we would like you in the Heath meeting but if you\nfeel - I think the taping is more important. Do you want\nto send somebody else in?\nK:\nLet me see what I am doing at that time.\nP:\nYou can come in for a half hour and then take off. But\nyour taping, I will expect that Ron could put the taping\na half hour later.\nK:\nThat would be good. Then I will be over for about 45\nminutes and we can have the taping at 5:30.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon\nAmb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger\n7:00 pm, February 1, 1973\nD:\nWell, well, well, what are you doing. I was praying very\nstrongly as far back as 7:30 I was beginning to pray.\nK:\nBy God, Anatol, you are really hard to get. Oh, in the four\nyears I've been here I have never gone to a prayer breakfast.\nD:\nYou did not pray. This was my strong impression, and now\nI have proof. I'm ashamed of you.\nK:\nAnatol, one thing is that someday you must let me read your\nintelligence reports about me.\nD:\nIn Moscow maybe we have nice dinner and have a special\nreading which you can correct.\nK:\n(Laughter) One thing, I told you if I went to China on this\ntrip I would tell you, Well, now, I'm going to China and\nstopping elsewhere.\nD:\nWhen you are going?\nK:\nI'll be there on the 15th to 19th, coming back on the 19th, that\nis arriving there on 15th and leaving on 19th.\nD:\nNobody knows what you will be doing next.\nK:\nI'll be stopping in the Philippines or Hong Kong to rest.\nD:\nHong Kong is better.\nK:\nI may go to Hong Kong then.\nD:\nYou depart when?\nK:\nSaturday or Monday, two days from now.\nD:\nFine.\nK:\nNext, I have reviewed invited Shults to come to the breakfast\ntomorrow.\nD:\nThis idea, is it good. Is he nice man.\nK:\nYes, we can talk frankly with each other--you can speak\nfrankly in front of him. 1 want him to get a fair Idea of the\nnature of our relationship. We don't want him heavily\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nD:\nI understand.\nK:\nThird, I have heard from Bahr. His view is we should just\nhave headings and no discriptions.\nD:\nJust headings--why bother -- after all--\nK:\nLet everybody put in their own descriptions and let the\nConference sort it out.\nD:\nIn generalthen--\nK:\nThen each side puts in--\nD:\nGive to lak whom-- when they going to decide--\nK:\nGive to the Conference. I told him I intend to agree with\nyour approach.\nI asked what he was willing to do with other European countries\nin developing foreign policy. No answer.\nJust wanted you to know where we stand.\nEveryone will submit his mandate.\nD:\nTo each other to think it over.\nK:\nYes, I think they will read it at the Conference. Our view\nis that we agree with your approach. Tomorrow at Camp\nDavid we will give them a copy of this thing.\nD:\nI understand. A good idea. Well I'll mention to Gromyko\nto continue to discuss, but no conclusion. I'm not clear\nhow to handle. Maybe he will have suggestions to make.\nK:\nI just wanted you to know we are active. Connally saw it\ntoday.\nD:\nI was with him today.\nK:\nOur view is we will push matters here. He en see certain\nadvantage in getting the information to Connally. He has\nenough political pull, he, if he comes into the program, he\ncan work on the private side unofficially.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n3\nD:\nThis is your position.\nwabts to see something\naround March or April.\nshit of agreement, for\nbalance of payments. Some companies with materials\nshould be interested; may be good idea about some kine\nof money involvement, joint so to speak.\nK:\nWe discussed that yesterday.\nD:\nI will continue to work with these companies. I will be\nin touch with them.\nK:\nGood, it might be a good idea. That is an aspect we don't\ndiscuss tomorrow.\nD:\nA certain fellow you have, Col. Gorman, going to Moscow\nin a few days.\nK:\nI don't know anything about it.\nD:\nThis is the point. State Dept. called us to get visa for\nman of the President today, a personal man of the President,\nyou take care?\nK:\nThe only man who is personal friend of the President. You\nare checking with me.\nD:\nTell me if you know him.\nK:\nGorman? I'll just look into it. I don't know anythibg\nabout it.\nD:\nOkay. Everybody claims he knows the President.\nK:\nNever heard of him.\nD:\nWhat was fellow you mention the other day.\nK:\nDiBona. Anatol you check with me from now on.\nD:\nI will act accordingly.\nK:\nWe will have breakfast tomorrow with general talk, talk\nfrankly, and then we talk economic matters.\nD:\nWe can discuss in his presence our foreign policy?\nK:\nYes, I want to give him the feeling that what we are doing\nis important. The way we run our business. That will\nconvince him so much, he'll give away our national interests.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n*\n4\nD:\nOkay. Are you making a television appearance.\nK:\nYes. I said a few nice things about Brezhnev on TV. 1\nhope you don't mind.\nD:\nNo, I don't. Oh, by the way, I'm bringing a book for you\ntomorrow morning, and 1 hope it won't make him envious.\nK:\nWonderful, thank you. Okay, Anatol, I will see you tomorrow.\nD:\nAt 8:45?\nK:\n8:45, good.\nD:\nOkay, bye, bye.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon\nSecretary Richardson/Mr. Kissinger\n7:15 pm, February 1, 1973\nK:\nI wanted to talk to you before we get into too much of an\nissue on these NSSMs, so I'm calling to let you know what\nI can or cannot accept. I never move on this with the\nPresident. First I held up those for six weeks to give you\na chance to make substantive comments, but we cannot let\none Department clear it or have exclusive rights to do the\npapers.\nR:\nI had no intention of making any such claim.\nK:\nOur fellow got it from Jonathan.\nIt is still restricted to DoD and that you can understand.\n/V/\nR:\nOkay. How much do you want to go into now.\nK:\nI just want to know what I have to take an adequate position\non.\nR:\nIn general (1) I want to cooperate in NSC processes. No\nquestion as to the importance of our stand or the Presidential\ninterest in having these things. That is not the issue. The\nonly thing is with respect to some of these things I have an\ninstitutional level in the Department on some of the inputs\nin the proposals which shows the Department I want to get\nthis work done. I am being told by the White House to do\nthis. Would like to negotiate with you some understanding\nwhereby you would know we are getting started on this and\nyou could follow with the actual publication of NSSMs late r\non.\nK:\nIt's in my interest to have you act effectively if possible.\nI favored your appointment because we worked well together\nbefore. Why we don't take it Saturday--cannot permit\njustification of exclusion of one department\nR:\nI understand that. I'm concerned with this.\nK:\nYou should be able to show that you thought of it yourself.\nR:\nI would.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nK:\nOn the other hand I have been holding these up so that I\ncould start them with you rather than Laird.\nR:\nI appreciate that. We can face this okay. Then when you\nissue the NSSMS it may, if appropriate, allude to a process\nthat has been initiated in DOD that will--\nK:\nLet's discuss it on Saturday.\nR:\nOkay.\nK:\nBye.\nR:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nJerry Weisner/Mr. Kissinger\n7:35 p.m., February 1, 1973\nW:\nFirst of all, let me say \"congratulations\nK:\nThank you, Jerry.\nW:\nI was calling -- I don't know whether you have time to think about what's\ngoing on domestically anymore.\nfeedback assets likely\nto be law\ntechnological policy because the NSF won't\nknow how to deal with them. I wanted to be sure that you were aware\nof it and perhaps the NSC could pick this up.\nK:\nHow would we do it though?\nW:\nDo you know Vince (?) McRae?\nK:\nYes.\nW:\nHe could probably help on this.\nOtherwise, all other clearances\nK:\nThat's a very good thought. I have been so absolutely\nW:\nI understand. Maybe you ought to pick up Vince on the NSC, at least\nuntil\nK:\nLet me do something about it tomorrow. Jerry, you have made a\nnumber of efforts and I really should be freer now. Will you keep\nafter me.\nW:\nIt is certainly in the country's interest to do it. I have certainly\nunderstood what you have been up against.\nK:\nWill you keep after it? I really will make a major effort the next\ntime you call.\nW:\nYou are going off?\nK:\nI am going off to Hanoi on Wednesday.\nW:\nI'll see you when you get back.\nK:\nOkay, Jerry.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nDave Kraslow/Mr. Kissinger\n7:37 p.m., February 1, 1973\nDK:\nHow are you?\nHK:\nOkay.\nDK:\nSorry to trouble you. I have just a brief query. I'm a little uncertain\nabout the point of reference when you mentioned that you would discuss\nwith the President.\nHK:\nTo do a history of what happened.\nDK:\nReconstruction?\nHK:\nThat's right.\nDK:\nThis would be an interview with myself, Ozzie and George?\nHK:\nIt is not definitely settled yet. I just wanted you to know that I would\ntake it up with him.\nDK:\nDid he seem to react favorably?\nHK:\nThat's right.\nDK:\nAnd I should get in touch with you when you get back from Hanoi?\nHK:\nThat's right.\nDK:\nHow did the interview go today?\nHK:\nI don't know, you know. My father will undoubtedly think I detroyed\nMarvin Kalb.\nDK:\n[Laughter] Did you cover the same ground as you did yesterday?\nHK:\nSome of it.\nDK:\nI'll look forward to watching it. Have a good trip.\nHK:\nThank you, Dave.\nwgh\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nNIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS PROJECT\nDOCUMENT CONTROL RECORD\nITEM REMOVED FROM THIS FILE FOLDER\nA RESTRICTED DOCUMENT OR CASE FILE HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM\nTHIS FILE FOLDER. FOR A DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM REMOVED\nAND THE REASON FOR ITS REMOVAL, CONSULT DOCUMENT ENTRY\nNUMBER 1 ON EITHER THE DOCUMENT WITHDRAWAL RECORD\n(GSA FORM 7279 OR NA FORM 1421) OR NARA WITHDRAWAL SHEET\n(GSA FORM 7122) LOCATED IN THE FRONT OF THIS FILE FOLDER.\nA sanitized copy substituted for an original item which\ncontains information restricted under the Privacy Act.\nNATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION\nNLN Form 101 (revised 6-85)\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nProf. Paul Doty/Mr. Kissinger\n10:19 m., February 2, 1973\nD:\nHello, Henry.\nK:\nPaul, how are you?\nD:\nThat was a first-rate performance last night.\nK:\nOh, was it? Thank you.\nD:\nOh, that was really very well done.\nlittle bit about the December\nbombing.\nK:\n[Laughter] Well, I was just getting ready to write you a blistering\nletter about your letter to the President.\nD:\nI see.\nK:\nWhen your letter arrived from London that same night.\nD:\nOkay.\nK:\nI saw it was all understandable.\nD:\nYeah. No, I thought that what one didn't know in December was the\nlow casualties and that does make a difference.\nK:\nK:\nNo, because really, you know, the instructions were that they couldn't\nbomb within a thousand feet of populated areas. Even that hospital --\nYou know, the hospital happens to be located about 800 feet from two\ntargets and I think - not in a built-up area. Now, of course, the idiots\nshould have told us that.\nD:\nNow that does make a real difficult load. I always hate to see the\npopulation being numbed into civilian bombing and that's certainly what\nI thought was going on.\nK:\nYeah. No. Well, at any rate, the major problem that we had was at\nleast as much as I tried to make to\nyesterday is to sock Saigon\ntoo.\nOf course,\n/\nD:\nYes. That was the other half of the story. And I think probably would\nhave been that -- It was very hard for the President to go on the air\nbut boy it was a real\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nProf. Paul Doty/Mr. Kissinger\n- 2 -\n10:19 a.m., February 2, 1973\nK:\nLook, it was the toughest emotional period I've gone through.\nD:\nYeah, I can imagine. Yeah.\nK:\nI mean, for me. Because all the people I believe in, you know -- there's\nno sense in conducting national policy if you don't have the moral\nconsensus.\nD:\nYeah. Well, anyway, we can all be the easier.\nK:\nWell, I think we with a little luck now -- with my trip to Hanoi, we\ncan make some --\nIf they have 50% of the ability of the Chinese,\nwe ought to be able to get a new relationship started.\nD:\nWell, okay. The one thing I wanted to speak to you about while Heath\nis here -- I don't know how I can say it on the phone but I had a long\nconfidential with de Bondeis (sp?) when I was there and I guess what\nthey would like -- as he sees it, what they would be a little sympathetic\ndiscussion that would involve you on the future of their deterrents\nbecause they are internally very divided. And for what they think are\nrational reasons, which exist because they don't understand the larger\npicture. To put it briefly, the one side would like to keep things just\nas they are.\nK:\nYeah.\nD:\nBut, of course, they don't know how long that will be possible in terms\nof our continuing\nold ships. On the other hand, the Navy wants\nto go to upgrade things as to size the Americans would let them but they\nfear -- and this is where I have no judgment and maybe they are just off\nbase -- but they fear that if they went that way, or at least some of them\nfear, that it would utlimately threaten the May Treaty.\nK:\nWhat do you think I should do?\nD:\nWell, I think it's just a matter of listening to them and counseling them.\nI don't know myself which is the better way out. It really depends upon\nthe assessment of the stability I suppose.\nK:\nWhat is Bondeis (sp?) advice?\nWhat does he want?\nD:\nWell, he's going to come over on February 11th and 12th and maybe\nthe real discussions could be gone on then.\nK:\nYeah.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nProf. Paul Doty/Mr. Kissinger\n- 3 -\n10:19 a.m., February 2, 1973\nD:\nBut they -- he really fears that, you know, if they don't get a fairly\nagreed upon position on this that there may be not too far off a temptation\nto give it all up. And he thinks the consequences of that on the West\nGermans would be very bad. That's really, from his point of view, the\nreason to keep the whole thing going. So it's a fairly complex matter\nbut I thought I could say that much.\nyet\nK:\nThey have not formally raised it with us. There was some mumbling\nin November before they were coming -- when they thought they were\ncoming in December. But we're going up to Camp David. Maybe they\nwill raise it then.\nD:\nUm-humm.\nK:\nOkay.\nD:\nBut it's very much 50-50 inside, according to him. And they just\ndon't know.\nK:\nWhat is Bondeis (sp?) position? Is he in the government?\nD:\nOh, yes. He is the Chief Science Advisor to the Ministry of Defense.\nK:\nRight.\nD:\nSo he's out on their own Polaris testing now and will be here in a week.\nK:\nOkay. This is very helpful.\nD:\nVery good. I don't suppose we have time to do any SALT work before\nyou go?\nK:\nNot with outsiders. But I'd like to see you when I'm back which will\nbe the week of the 18th.\nD:\nThe week of the 18th. Okay.\nK:\nCause we've deferred it until the 12th.\nD:\nI heard, yes.\nK:\nSo I will work something out with our group for that week.\nD:\nAll right, very good.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nProf. Paul Doty/Mr. Kissinger\n- 4 -\n10:19 m., February 2, 1973\nK:\nAnd what I'm particularly interested in is approachs to the MIRV\nproblem.\nD:\nUh-huh. You mean, just the terms of -- I mean, in our studying it\nI suppose we ought to do both in terms of a small package --\nK:\nThat's right.\nD:\nAnd also a large one. But not to get them mixed up.\nK:\nWell, I consider a total ban impossible from the Soviet point of view.\nD:\nYeah, yeah.\nK:\nSo we have to think of intermediate packages.\nD:\nUm-humm. Okay. Very good then.\nK:\nSee you soon.\nD:\nYes. Up here I wish the damn Government Department were not\nso parochial. Between you and me, I think Bok ought to offer you\nUniversity professorship whenever you can come back.\nK:\nWell, you know, between you and me, Bok called me a few months ago --\na few weeks ago, and said that if I needed his help to get back into the\nGovernment Department, I should approach him. On that basis, I'll\nnever approach. You know, I'll just never approach him. Harvard\nhas to formulate a proposition if they want.\nD:\nYeah. I'm really surprised how the Government Department does\nwork. I think the President only would keep one open but they have\neverybody's prodigy all lined up for the next 10 years. And I think\nthat's a hell of a way to run a Department.\nK:\nYeah. Well, that's up to Harvard.\nD:\nOkay.\nK:\nGood. Thank you, Paul.\nD:\nBye, bye.\nwgh\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nJoe Sisco/Mr. Kissinger\n10:27, Feb. 2, 1973\nK:\nHello.\nS:\nHenry, that was a very effective hour on televiaion I thought.\nK:\nThank you, I appreciate it.\nS:\nIt was really well done.\nK:\nThank you. Joe, I just saw that cable you fellows sent out of\nCairo.\nS:\nWhich one was that.\nK:\n(Where the hell is it) Ah--\nS:\nThe Holding cabl e.\nK:\nWell, it's the why the hell don't you clear stuff like that with us?\nS:\nWell, I agree with you, and let me just say something else, there\njust aren't going to be anymore cables going out.\nK:\nNo one has ever won that sort of a battle with me and I don't know\nwhy you guys keep--one way or the other, the President is going\nto get hold of this.\nS:\nThat's right.\nK:\nAnd youare just going to have to cut off your water completely.\nWe are just going to tell the Arabs to ignore you, if you keep this\nup.\nS:\nWell, Henry, I agree with yo;u and as far as I am concerned I'm\nr eady to work with whomever is going to run this thing and I have\nno quarrel with what you have to say at all.\nK:\nYou see, if we are going to try to do what you and I discussed the\nother day, how the hell can we not confuse them when this sort of\nstuff goes out.\nS:\nBy the way, that is what we've been saying for two years, so nobody\nis going to go anywhere with that, but, and it was intended to be sure\nthat we keep Mr. Green in check rather than anything else after\nGreen had consultations here, but Henry, look, I accept your point\nthere is no doubt about it, and in fact I'm about half way along on\nwhat I promised you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nK:\nOkay, good.\nS:\nYou know, you don't have to make the point-- -\nK:\nAnd I have had a preliminary talk with the President about it.\nS:\nAbout the middle East?\nK:\nYes, and about our conversation.\nS:\nOh, yes. Well if he concludes that I have a role hered, why\nI'm ready to play a role here too, but it's just that, Henry, I\ndon't know whether I'm coming or going, I'd like to be helpful\nto whoever is going to be involved in this, and if there is any\nway I can be helpful, it's just that--\nK:\nOh, you're the only Assistant Secretary with whom I'm working\ndirectly.\nS:\nYeah, well Henry I'll have this for you and then the President\nreally has to decide how this has got to be played and it can't\nbe played without you and the President, that;s all there is to\nit.\nK:\nWell, we've demonstrated that to everybody's satisfaction.\nS:\nNot qu;ite to everybody's, not everybody is convinced. I'm\nconvinced of it )laughter).\nK:\nOkay.\nS\"\nThanks Henry.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nScotty Reston/Mr. Kissinger\n11:02 a.m., February 2, 1973\nK:\nHello.\nR:\nGood morning, Henry.\nK:\nScotty, how are you?\nR:\nFine.\nK:\nI tried to reach you yesterday and never seemed to connect.\nR:\nWell, I was calling back and you were away and vise versa I guess.\nK:\nWell, what I wanted you to know was that I had submitted a list of\nrequests to our people. They had put them into categories for TV\nand for newspapers and there had been a long standing commitment\nto CBS, which we cancelled in April. Be that as it may, after we talked\nI got in touch with Marvin and urged him to keep the interview on as\nnon-competitive a basis of anything that you and I had discussed as\npossible. I didn't put it to him on that basis. And I don't think it really\ngot into a great deal of the reflective material that I thought you had had\nin mind.\nR:\nYeah. Well, I unfortunately was speaking while you were on last night\nso I missed it. And I haven't seen the text\nK:\nI think if you see the transcript, you'll see that about half of it dealt\nwith Vietnam and was really an elaboration or in fact a repetition of my\npress conference.\nR:\nYeah.\nK:\nThen there were two questions on the balance of power. Then there\nwas a lot of antidotal material about strips. And then there was a very\nbrief question at the end why we were interested in a negotiated settlement.\nSo in the whole list of things there were only really three questions that\ncould be called philosophical. And I had urged Marvin to push it in that\ndirection and he did.\nR:\nWell, why don't I look at the transcript when I get back and then look\nat the stuff our people have put together and let's talk at the beginning of\nthe week. You're going off when?\nK:\nI don't really think I can do anything before I come back from Hanoi.\nR:\nI think it would be better to do it after you come back anyway.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nScotty Reston/Mr. Kissinger\n- 2 -\n11:02 a.m., February 2, 1973\nK:\nAnd I think then one has a much better perspective.\nR:\nYeah.\nK:\nI think if you look at the transcript, Scotty, I would be amazed if you\nthought that there was more than one or two questions you would\neven have asked.\nR:\nYeah. Well, let's do.\nK:\nAnd those were not covered in the way you would cover them.\nR:\nAre you saying then that you are willing to do that when you come back?\n[Change in Tapes]\nK:\nThat I can't say but I will tell you this\nan interview with anyone\nif I can't do it with you.\nR:\nYeah. All right, fine. Let's let it go at that, Henry, and I'll be in touch\nwith you next week.\nK:\nGood, Scotty.\nR:\nThank you very much.\nK:\nBye.\nR:\nBye.\nwgh\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nJerry Schecter/Mr. Kissinger\n11:15, Feb. 2, 1973\nK:\nHello.\nS:\nHenry?\nK:\nYes, Jerry.\nS:\nIt was a nice performance last night I thought.\nK:\nThank you.\nS:\nSay, I talked to Ron about going with you, and he said\nnothing doing. But, as I told you, I've been in touch with the\nNorth Vietnamese and I talked with their people in Paris on\nthe phone and, they said that they had recommended me,\nand I talked to a couple of other people by cable. Now, I'm\ntold apparently that they've cancelled all private American\ngroups in February, obviously because of your visit, but I--\nif you somehow could tell them that you had no objection to\nme being there while you're there, I think they would probably\nsay yes at this point.\nK:\nOkay, let me see what I can do.\nS:\nWell, ;I'd sure appreciate it, Henry, I think somebody should\nbe there and I think we could do it right.\nK:\nOkay, it would be the first time.\nS:\nYes (laughter).\nK:\nSo, I would like to have somebody there from our press, and\nyou've really always been understanding. Let me see whether I\ncan get a message to them saying that we have no objections.\nS:\nWell, if you could mention my name specifically, it would really\nbe great.\nK:\nRight.\nS:\nYou know at this week, talking about reconstruction and so forth, hih.\nK:\nRight.\nS:\nOkay, thanks a lot.\nK:\nRight, bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAmb. Sullivan/Kissinger\n11:55 a.m. - 2/2/73\nK:\nHello.\nS:\nHi, that was a great performance.\nK:\nThank you, Bill.\nS:\nMy wife said you looked very humble.\nK:\n(Laughs) Mock humility.\nS:\nI told her that to maintain the semblance of humility for one hour\nwas the greatest thing you've ever experienced.\nK:\n(Laughs) Listen Sullivan if I have any self-confidence left after\nyour constant assaults.\nS:\nHenry, it was great. You danced around some tough ones too.\nK:\nWhat I wanted to ask about was on that final act of yours.\nS:\nYeh, I've made some changes.\nK:\nCan we also put in some stuff about restraint on the part of all parties\nor something like that? Call on all countries to exercise restraint.\nS:\nRestraint, yeh. I don't have the damn thing in front of me right now.\nI did make that - I did have some reference to calling on all countries\nto - what the hell was it. Hold on just a second, maybe I can get it.\nI did have something in there after all countries - other countries\nwho were not signatories or not participants to\n, but I haven't\ngot the word restraint. How did you want to put restraint in?\nK:\nIn their actions to contribute to peace and to exercise restraint in\nmatters that might exacerbate conflict.\nS:\nYeh. OK. I don't think I have anything specifically - let me just\nlook to see what I have here. No, I don't have - I'll add something.\nI sent the whole thing over to you as part of a - I guess it hasn't\ngotten to you yet, as a reply to that NSSM that you sent. NSSM 67\nI have appended it as the action paper.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nK:\nCould you perhaps add another sentence like that to it.\nS:\nYeh.\nK:\nAnd get it over to me this afternoon.\nS:\nOK.\nK:\nGet it to Scowcroft personally.\nS:\nAll right.\nK:\nGood. Thank you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon\nAmb. Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger\n12:04, February 2, 1973\nD:\nHello.\nK:\nAnatol.\nD:\nYes, hello Henry.\nK:\nHow are you.\nD:\nOkay.\nK:\nAh, Anatol, we have redone that communique a little bit to make\nit easier for you not to send bombs into North Wietnam,\nD:\n(laughter)\nK:\nWhich I; know is your principal preoccupation\nD:\nWell\nK:\nAnd we are sending it over this afternoon.\nD:\nTo me.\nK:\nTo you.\nD:\nIs it part of this one, or--\nK:\nNo, no, just ignore the one I gave you this morning and use the\none we will send over this afternoon.\nD:\nOh, it will be from the very beginning you have redone.\nK:\nYes.\nD:\nYou will send not one page but the whole set.\nK:\nThe whole set.\nD:\nAnd I will let you see notations where I just looking said through the\ntext and you see, you made a mistake, you chsskedxNovember.\nSo It was the word November that bothered me. You said first\nthe agreement signed by parties in November--\nK:\nYes, that's because we were drafting this thing in November,\nwhen we thought there would be an agreement.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nD:\nSo it would be better to take it off.\nK:\nYeah.\nD:\nBecause otherwise it confuses--\nK:\nAt any rate, this is really only for your leadership.\nD:\nNo, no, I understand, because you are going discuss it in\nFebruary, because you discuss it while in Hanoi of course.\nK:\nI will discuss it in Hanoi.\nD:\nYou must be in communication with them because you understand\nit also concerns them to they have to make their own mind.\nK:\nNo, no, but it would be a little embarrasing to me to have them\nlearn it from you.\nD:\nNo, You never embarras why I am this way, I may assure you,\nyou do not worry.\nK:\nOkay, and you will get a letter to Breshnev this afternoon, it's\nalready drafted.\nD:\nOkay.\nK:\nAnd it's in terms of what I told you this morning. We will discuss\nall these matters in the first half :of March.\nD:\nThat will be good.\nK:\nAnd that we will be constructive in the European situation.\nD:\nYeah, Isee what you do, fair enough. You just mention, just maybe\nabout the mention, it will probably be in March, the first\npart, maky be.\nK:\nThat's exactly what the letter says.\nD:\nOkay Henry--\nK:\nAnd no crisis while you and I are gone.\nD:\nThat will be bored while I'm gone.\n&\nSonnenfeldt had Drambuie, so don't you try it, it's too dangerous\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n3\nD:\nYeah, on a salad it's nothing really, except what I will d send\nyou, I will ting bring you some.\nK:\nGood. Anatol, we will send you the communique.\nD:\nYes, okay Henry, the very best. And thank you very much, and\nI hope you enjoy the book I gave you, and we'll have another dis-\ncussion should you read it.\nK:\nI'm counting on it.\nD:\nOh, yesterday, you know what program you pre-empted.\nK:\nWhat?\nD:\nOn CBS.\nK:\nWhich one.\nD:\nI was supposed to be the Last Link of America.\nK:\noh, really.\nD:\nExactly. It was supposed to play.\nK:\nI think you are absolutely correct. Good, Anatol] I have to run.\nD:\nYes, thank you very much.\nK:\nAnd we'll have a constructive spring, I'm sure.\nD:\nYes, I think so too.\nK:q\nGood.\nD:\nBye, bye.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nRon Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger\n10:35 a. m. 2/3/73\nRZ:\nHi, Henry. I'm just going in to make the announcement said before\nthat when you're with Chou En-lai that you discuss Vietnam and so forth,\nI'm goingto say this trip is not related to Vietna, but I think we should\nsay that it may come up--it's hard to conceive that Henry Kissinger is\ngoing to sit down with Chou En-lai and not talk about Southeast Asia.\nHK:\nI would say there is no formal agenda but- -\nRZ:\nAs in the past-\nHK\nAs in the past there is no formal agenda-but--why do we have to say it ?\nRZ:\nWell, we've always siad it before.\nHK:\nWe have said it afterwards.\nRZ:\nNo, we've said it before I was just reviewing my briefings-we have said\nthere is no formal agenda but they will cover a whole range of world\nsubjects which would of course include among them Vietnam.\nHK:\nI'd say either side can bring up any topic and its probable that one\nof them will bring up the topic of Southeast Asia.\nRZ\nRight.\nHK:\nSay as little as possible.\nRZ:\nOkay good.\nHK:\nApparently no one has figured this one out yet.\nRZ\"\nNo, Im going out there right now. So they don't beat me on the wire.\nHK:\nOkay good.\nRZ:\nI'll see you afterwards.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nMr. Kissinger/Henry Hubbard\n2/3/73 12:05 p.m.\nHH\"\nHi,\nHK:\nHow are you?\nHH:\nFine, how are you.\nHK:\nDo you to tell me how to get a visa to Chima.\nHH:\n(laughs) I can get you a visa for the China dinner.\nI wasn't sure what you wanted, and it's a little hard to get Mel.\nHK:\nI wanted to see whether we could delay the China dinner. Mell wrote\nme a letter saying the 3rd.\nHH:\nYeh, we --the tentative plan was to switch it to the 3rd or 4th.\nNow if that's all right, okay.\nHK:\nGood.\nThe 3rd or 4th, whichever is better for him.\nHH:\nOkay I have them try to get you a definitive word.\nHK:\nOr to the 24th, whichever he prefers.\nHH:\nOkay, I'll tell him. That's what I thought you wanted to know, so I\nthought I could help you. I know they are already tentaitvely working\non the 3rd or 4th.\nHK:\nThe 3rd is what--the 3rd is Saturday?\nHH\nI don't know, I don't have a calendar in front of me, is it Saturday ?\nHK:\nYeh.\nHH:\nIs that okay ?\nHK:\nThat would be fine.\nHH:\nGood. You were brilliant the other night, by the way.\nHK:\nWhat--on the Kalb thing?\nHH:\nYeh on the Kalb thing--not as outspoken as you are in private, but\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nHK:\nI couldn't be.\nHH:\nI know. There were times when I could see 15 comments, comebacks\ngoing through your mind, you rejecting them all. (laughing)\nCensoring your own thoughts. No, I thought it was effective.\nOkay thanks for calling.\nHK:\nYeh, bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nMr. Kissinger/Mr. Gwertzman\n12:10 p.m. 2/3/73\nG:\nI'm calling just to sort of limit the speculation that will inevitably creep\nin the wake of the announcement today. I assume this will be a thorough\nextension of relations in the wake of the Vietnam settlement--\nK:\nHow will that limit the speculation.\nG:\nI have refer to items on my little checklist here--Sihounok, of course\nhas asked to meet with you. And he of course hangs out--is there any\nchance you'll see him.\nK:\nI have no plans to see him.\nG:\nAnd there inevitably be speculation about the 3rd member of this triangle\nin Moscow-- is there any immediate plans for consultations with the high\nSoviet leaders?\nK:\nWell, it's a different problem with the Soviets because we are in constant\ntouch with them, through Dobrynin.\nG:\nYeh. And there is no Brezhnev trip--his trip here isn't going to be any\ntime soon or something like that\n/\nHK:\nIt hasn't been set yet.\nG:\nYeh. On the --I note the wording of the announcement today was word--\nfor word, I think the announcement for the trip last June.\nK:\nThat's right.\nG:\nAAnd, so it suitably diplomatically open--from what we had a couple\nweeks ago, you were then hopeful that the Chinese relations would have\nmarked improvement--\nK:\nYeh, I still expect that.\nG:\nIs it likely that we will be able to get something more concrete--\nK:\nI just don't want to speculate on any outcome.\nG:\nBut the basic purpose I assume is to --for thorough discussion in the wake\nof the Vietnam settlement.\nK:\nNo, it's a thorough discussion - -we've been meeting at about 6 mos.\nintervals.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nK:\nObviously in the aftermath of the vietnam situation, but the purpose\nis not to discuss Southeast Asiax* as the primary or exclusive topic.\nG:\nBilateral relations is more important.\nK:\nYeh. Okay. All of this is not for attribution to anybody.\nG:\nRight. I understand.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nEliott Richardson/Mr. Kissinger\n2/3/73\n1:20 a.m.\nR:\nhas been the chief representative\nI got a strong pitch on his behalf by Jackson when I went to see him-\nK:\nI know, he made a strong pitch to the President too.\nR:\nOkay, I better since Allison is really the - -the way it has worked has\nbeen the chief representative- I ought to talk to Tom I guess.\nK:\nYeh, just as long as it happens.\nR:\nOkay.\nK:\nI notice the STAR also has this story about arms aid to Laos and Cambodia\nand that is just mischievous\nR:\nYeh, that's too bad. I try to run it down and shut it off If I can. Inthe\nmeanwhile I think I can pretty well assure an answer consonant with what\nwe discussed namely that replacements can be made on the same basis as-.\nK:\nThat's right.\nR:\nAnd I think as soon as we reach that\nmaybe the sooner we can\nchoke off that there is a lot of bickering over it. Then the only question\nwould be how to get that out-\nK:\nThe best thing is we didn't say a hell of a lot until the ceasefire is actually\nput in.\nR:\nThe best thing to do is to precipitate the result internally and shut off the\nbate that way and therefore shut off leakage too.\nK:\nYeh.\nR:\nOkay, I'll get on that--can I mention one thing forgot to bring up this\nmorning. That is on the President's foreign policy State of the World\nStatement--and the timing of that and the relationship in turn to the so-\ncalled Defense report. I understand Sec. of Defense ordinarily release\nthe Defense report concurrently with his first appearance on the Hill,\nin support of the DOD budget. Mahon has asked me to come up orginally\nit was going to be next week and now it is off till the week of the 20h.\nWhen do you anticipate the State of the World message will be ready?\nHK:\nLet me get in touch with you about that on Monday--\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nR:\nHow much do you care\nK:\nIn the past we have always insisted that the departmental reports\nfollow ours\nR:\nI feel if you insist again, I'll go along. I don't insist enough on having\nthe defense report concurrent with my appearance before Mahon--I would\nwant to be able to appear before Mahon in that week, but I don't have to\nhave. -I can develop a different kind of statement and issue the Defense\nreport at a later date, if necessary. If on the other hand, don't care a\nwhole lot,\nK:\nWe care a whole lot--the only question is whether we will --whether I\ncan get a firm enough deadline on ours to make it a reasonable--there\nis no question that If the President can set a firm date fairly soon, that\nhe will insist that his report come first. The question now is how firm\na date we can set. And that's what I'd like to consider.\nR:\nOkay and I think it is relevant because eventhough I can get by all right\nin the Mahon case, as the success of the appearances I make before the\ntwo authorizing committees and before the Senate appropriations committe\ncome along it becomes harder to hold off the issuanoe of the report.\nK:\nWell, we have held it last year until the last year of March.\nR:\nWas the Defense report held then too?\nK:\nYes.\nK:\nWell, I certainly can't hold my appearances off that long.\nK:\nNo, no. Nobody is asking for that.\nR:\nWell, if it is important enough, we can do it. The only thing as a practica\nmatter, that the Defense report serves as a kind of reference point for\nthe successive DOD witnesses. They can tie back into it when they are\nbeing pressed on something or other.\nK:\nI understand that. Let me check with the President on Monday.\nR:\nAll right. Thanks.\nK:\nGood.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nMr. Kissinger/Pierre Salinger\n(Paris) 1:55 p.m. 2/3/73\nPS:\nThanksfor taking the call. Number one, are you taking press with\nyou to Hanoi?\nHK:\nNo.\nPS:\nOkay, that solves that problem. In other words, no press is going\nwith you?\nBK;\nNo.\nPS:\nAny press getting into Hanoi while you are there?\nHK:\nI have no way of knowing that.\nPS:\nIn other words, that is not in your department.\nHK:\nRight.\nPS:\nYou have no\nif they get in on their own?\nHK:\nThat's up to them.\nPS:\nOkay fine. Very good. When are you leaving then? HK: Wed\nPS:\nIf I were to come over on Monday would you haje any time to see me Tues?\nHK:\nNo, it's impossible now.\nPS:\nOkay.\nFimagine you wouldn't have much to say anyway.\nHK:\nI think it would be better after I get back.\nPS:\nDo you think after you got back we could do that think we were\ntalking about?\nHK:\nWell, let me decide after I get back.\nPS:\nFine. Thank you very much for taking the call.\nHK:\nOkay, nice to talk to you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSec. Richardson/Mr Kissinger\n(Secure Phone) 2/3/73 2:12 p.m.\nHK:\nElliot, I am sorry to bother you again, but that paper on Taiwan\nis absolutely not what the President told Chou he would do.\nIt is useless. He told Chou that within 8 months after the settlement\nhe would withdraw forcesas a result of augmentation after the Vietnam\nwar started; he thought having gone from about 3, 000 to 8, 000.\nSo that only Taiwan defense forces would stay. He didn't give any\nprecise number, but a table is here that shows no decrease at all,\nand that would not be in good faith.\nER:\nIt does involve a reduction in numbers.\nHK:\nNo, that is made up by putting in some other forces. I don't think\nthere is much of a net reduction.\nER:\nWell, I didn't catch that. I will look again. I asked also for a\ncomplete annex of all the forces that were there.\nHK:\nWe mean forces which were put in there after the buildup was\nstarted. You didn't know the background, so you can't be blamed.\nIt would be considered bad faith on our part.\nER:\nI will check into it.\nHK:\nKeep it to a small group.\nER:\nThere were only three people involved in this --Murphy, Eagleberger,\nand one guy working for him. I didn't go to the Chairman on it.\nMurphy didn't think we needed to. --partly because these\nare\nair squadrons.\nHK:\nWe won't tell them what units we are pulling out.\nER:\nWell, if you see no objection I will talk to Moorer.\nHK:\nOf course, but I want it please by Tuesday.\nER:\nWe could give it to you in increments.\nHK:\nYes.\nER:\nSo you could decide what combinations are the easiest ones to move\nand which are less eaay.\nHK:\nThat would be ideal. Thank you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nMr. Kissinger/Mel Elfin\n2/3/73 2:35 p.m.\nHK:\nMel, here I call you to give you a hot tip and you have a religious\ncelebration.\nML:\nA religious celebration--\nHK:\nI thought you were Irish.\nML:\nA beautiful Bar Mitzvah\nHK:\nGood. I talked to Henry Hubbard--just suggested you move the day\nto the 3rd or 4th. But all the best to you--are you having a good time?\nML:\nIt is marvelous.\nHK:\nGood, marvelous.\nML:\nOkay. bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAmb. Sullivan/Kissinger\n9:38 m. - 2/5/73\nK:\nHello Bill.\nS:\nYes, Henry.\nK:\nI'm sitting here raising uncerted hell with my associates about\nhow lousy the preparations for the Hanoi trip is.\nS:\nWell, that'll be news to them. What's the matter?\nK:\nIt's news to them that I'm raising hell.\nS:\nYeh.\nK:\nWell, it's just it gives me nothing but headings of topics. I've got\nto be more precise and I wonder whether Win can get in touch with\nyou and tell you, you know, some of the items I need.\nS:\nYeh. I have two items coming over to you today. One on normalization\nand the other on the Economic Council.\nK:\nGood. Well I need more precision on the Economic Council and I\nneed more precision on the Conference. What exactly do we want?\nAnd what exactly our various fallback positions - I mean what do\nwe say when they - I know we want the Secretary General as a sort\nof Executive Secretary - but I mean what if that doesn't fly?\nS:\nI thought of another fallback in which we'd have a Co-Chairman who\nwould not, however, actually take the chair on a rotating basis. They\nwould have an Executive Office that would preside on a daily basis\nbut he couldn't act except with the consensus of the Co-Chairmen.\nK:\nThat's ingenious. That's an ingenious idea.\nS:\nAnd I've got a seating plan in which we would sit on either side of\nthem and take no action except by our concurrency to\nK:\nWell, why don't we meet late afternoon - say around 5:00.\nS:\nFive o'clock. Good enough.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nSullivan/Kissinger\n2\n2/5/73 - 9:38 a.m.\nK:\nAnd in the meantime - now for example you have a paper which I\nfound interesting on the modalities of implementing Article 23.\nS:\nYeh, that's probably a tighter schedule than we can ever have but\nI thought\nK:\nIf we can spell them out a little bit and not relate it to '62, just say\nit as if it were a new proposal.\nknowing\nS:\nI thought xkxxxx the mentality of these clowns if you can relate it to\nsomething that gives it a certain aura of authority.\nK:\nYeh, well that's a good point.\nS:\nAnd I don't think we can ever do anything quite as rapidly as the\nschedule I proposed but I think it's a useful place to start out.\nK:\nBut why do we have to mention any exit points for example?\nS:\nSimply because 162 mentions it but it was never used. Nobody's\ngoing to use them.\nK:\nYeh.\nS:\nI mean not going to use them underaa supervision pattern.\nK:\nNo, well that we made clear. But you see on the International\nConference I had a brief talk with Dobrynin and he asked me a helluva\nlot of questions to which I didn't have the answer. You know, how do\nyou discuss Laos and Cambodia? What exactly do we want for Laos\nand Cambodia? What do we mean by endorse and guarantee?\nS:\nDid he give you any clue what he meant by guarantee?\nK:\nNo.\nS:\nBecause that puzzles me too.\nK:\nWell he says they're puzzled in Moscow and I believe him.\nS:\nWell it's a Hanoi word.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nSullivan/Kissinger\n3\n2/5/73 - 9:38 a.m.\nK:\nNow the Chinese have mentioned it too as you saw. We've got to\ngive them an answer incidentally.\nS:\nRight. Winston is getting that thing over to me this morning.\nK:\nIt hasn't gone to you yet?\nS:\nNo, that was my fault because there was no security -\nK:\nOK, it's on the way to you so if you can get me an answer to that by\n5:00.\nS:\nOh, it's here now, I see. I got it. OK.\nK:\nOK. Good.\nS:\nFive o'clock then?\nK:\nWhat does it say on top \"Clever people leave Chinese Bill Rogers. \"\nS:\nWhat's that? (Laughs)\nK:\nIs that what it says in the upper-right-hand corner ?\nS:\n(Laughs) Let me just read - it says here \"The year of the Buffalo.\nLe Duc Tho has the biggest herd in the north.' 11\nK:\nMy problem with the book as I got it now is that it will survive about\none hour of these clowns.\nS:\nOK.\nK:\nWell, Win knows. (Aside to Win: What was the other thing Win that\nI was yelling about that I wanted him to do?) Above all, if you could\nspell out that International Conference a little more precisely.\nS:\nOK.\nK:\nGood and I'll see you at 5. Thank you.\nS:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nRowland Evans/Kissinger\n9:48 a.m. - 2/5/73\nK:\nHello.\nE:\nHenry, how are you, sir?\nK:\nOK.\nE:\nI just wanted to congratulate you on your trip to China. I wonder\nwhether you can spend 10 minutes with me before you go.\nK:\nDon't be so insinuating, what are you up to\nE:\nI haven't got anything on the fire but I'm going to be doing the\nMiddle East week. I got to do a television show with King Hussein\nand I'm going down to my Virginia country estate to pay for it.\nThe one - we just bought it this morning and I'm going down to\nsettle accounts after one o'clock and that's about it but I really\nwould like to see you before you go.\nK:\nRight.\nE:\nI know you won't tell me anything but if I had some time\nK:\nJust to get the atmosphere.\nE:\nYes sir. You know I missed that interview and I was very sad about\nit. I didn't even know you were even going on with what's his name.\nK:\nYou were sad that I gave it or\nE:\nNo, I just wish I'd seen it. I read the transcript.\nK:\nOh you did.\nE:\nYeh. All the stories said you were tight-lipped, humorless and grim\nbut the transcript didn't read that way.\nK:\nOh ;you know they have to say something.\nE:\nDo you have any time at all? Could you possibly have a breakfast\ntomorrow morning?\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nRowland Evans\n- 2 -\n9:48 a.m., February 5, 1973\nK:\nNo. Wednesday, I'm leaving.\nE:\nWhat time do you leave on Wednesday?\nK:\nAt 10:00.\nE:\nWho's going with you? Winston and the usual?\nK:\nWell, the usual group plus Dick Kennedy.\nE:\nI wish I could come. What about late this evening?\nK:\nWell, let me call you during the day. Are you going to be in the office ?\nE:\nI'll be back here about 3:30 or 4:00. I've got to go down and settle on\nthis property.\nK:\nOh, you're going down to Virginia?\nE:\nYeah, down to Culpepper and then I'll come right back.\nK:\nWell, there must be more in that columnist's business than I thought.\nE:\nWell, that all depends on how good you are.\nK:\n[Laughter]\nE:\nYou know what I'm hearing go around town now?\nK:\nWhat?\nE:\nThat you're going to stay for 4 years.\nK:\nImpossible. Now that you --\nE:\nThat's what I'm hearing.\nK:\nListen --\nE:\nI say two at the most but --\nK:\nThat is correct. There is not one chance of it.\nE:\nYou see, I'm getting the same thing on Rogers, Henry. I mean, right now.\nI mean, everybody over at State -- they're all telling me there has been a\nfundamental change in his whole position and he's now happy. They say\nhe got to sign the Treaty; he doesn't think you want to go back to New York\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nRowland Evans/Mr. Kissinger\n- 3 -\n9:48 a. m., February 5, 1973\nE:\n(cont'd) anymore and he's ready to stay for the duration if Nixon will\nhave him. And as long as that holds, so are you.\nK:\nWell, I don't see how -- Are we to --\nE:\nOnly if Connally came in and in succession it would create a different\nsituation for you.\nK:\nI have no intention no matter what else happens.\nE:\nWell, you can't tell now, Henry.\nK:\nI can absolutely tell now.\nE:\nBut you keep climbing one peak after another and you know they say the\nlegacy of success spurs you on.\nK:\nNonsense.\nE:\nSo does Nixon and the country.\nK:\nNo, absolutely not.\nE:\nWell, that's what they said anyway.\nK:\nWell, that's good. Well, look, I'll try to see you for half an hour\neither today or tomorrow.\nE:\nYou want me to call you when I get back because I could come over any time\nafter 5:00 before you go out to dinner or anything like that.\nK:\nOkay, why don't you do that?\nE:\nI'll call you at 5:00.\nK:\nGood.\nE:\nAnd then we'll get something in before 7:00.\nK:\nWell, either today or tomorrow.\nE:\nAll right, Henry. How are you doing otherwise? Gee, this China thing\nwas a real surprise. I figured you'd be going to Hanoi but I didn't realize\nyou'd be going to China.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 4 -\nRowland Evans/Mr. Kissinger\n9:48 a. m., February 5, 1973\nK:\nWell, Evans, any time I can surprise you\n.....\nE:\nYou sure did. [Laughter] Are you going to see Hussein?\nK:\nYes.\nE:\nUm-humm. Okay, sir, I'll call at 5 o'clock.\nK:\nRight.\nBye.\nwgh\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nCy Sulzberger\n2/5/73\n10:01 a. m.\nCS:\nHello Henry.\nHK:\nCy, I was going to call you today.\nCS:\nI know you are the most unpredictable man in terms of geography that\nI have ever known. I wondered if there were any chances of seeing you\nbefore you go.\nHK:\nI am going Wednesday morning.\nCS:\nOh boy. I could fly down.could I see you for a little bit tomorrow if\nI just flew down and back.\nHK:\nLet me call you during theday where can I call you.\nCS:\nAt 556-1703-> my trouble is on Wednesday I have to\nHK:\nWednesday I°11\nCS:\nOh you'll be going anyway.\nHK:\nYeh, Wednesday is impossible.\nCS:\nI tell you Henry I'm desperately sad about not seeing you but I wondered\nif I could ask you help on two things remember last year when I talked to\nyou and again in Paris. China\nHK:\nNo, I have that very much in mind and I'm going to mention you to them.\nCS:\nI am so grateful andx because I've gotten no where in all that time.\nHK:\nNo, I already told your wife I would do that.\nCS:\nI am so grateful and the second thing I wanted to ask you was I put in a call\nfirst wrote a letter to Dwight Chapin, the President's appointment\nsecretary who I see is no longer there- and then I just got an answer from\nwhat-s his name, Ziegler, I've never dealt with Ziegler or his predecssors\n- Jim Hagerty or--I wanted to see him not only personally, but I wanted to\nask him a question of the third volume of my book which is going to deal at\nlength with him and he's always been very kind in seeing me in the past\nand I don't know how to get him directly through that armored brigade\nof bureaucracy.\nHK:\nI'll mention it to him, today, but I don't expect him--he isn't seeing any\nnewspaper people\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nCS:\nI didn't want to see him as a news paper man - you know that one time\nhe gave me that interview was wholly unexpected. But I would like to see\nhim as a friend and author.\nHK:\nLet me talk to him.\nCS:\nI'd be so grateful Henry and if you do have a moment tomorrow, I &d\nlove to fly down and see you.\nHK:\nGood, I'll get in touch about both of these things.\nCS:\nThank you very much, Henry.\nHK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon\nRon Ziegler/Mr. Kissinger\n11:06, Feb. 5, 1973\nK:\nHello.\nZ:\nHi, Kenry.\nK:\nYes, Ron.\nZ:\nYou are not taking press with you?\nK:\nWell, it's up to you.\nZ:\nNo, I mean, I feel confortable about it, I'm getting protests\nin here, but I don't see that we have any obligation to take\npress into North Vietnam or into China. You know, you're\ngoing on a Presidential mission. Don't you agree, there's\nnot going to be any news statement or anything aut of there\nin any event.\nany\nK:\nThere wasn't/at the signing in Paris either.\nZ:\nNo.\nK:\nLook, as far as I am concerned, I get more publicity not taking\npress.\nZ:\nWell, that's what I mean. I mean it's not --\nK:\nI have no great interest in having the press.\nZ:\nYeah. Well what I'm going to say today is that's up to theDRV\nand the PRC. Of course any news organization wants to make\napplication to go to those countries, we have no objection, and\nmaybe encourage them, but--\nK:\nA lot of these guys call me and say they've never been on a trip\non a plane with me wo they don't know how I work. Well, it's up\nto you.\nZ:\nThat's just no excuse to use Henry.\nK:\nLook, I haven't stressed this, you have.\nZ:\nI wanted to talk to you about it, not in the context of you and the\ncontaext of overall foreign policy and your assessment of it.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nK:\nWell you have to decide whether we take the press, whether we\ncan control it better than if they take the press in, or if they\nlet no press in, where we stand compared to what--\nZ:\nIf we take them in there's no reason that we can control them\nbetter. I think the way we control the flow xrx of information out\nof here, your meetings, is to make sure that any communicature\nor any statement out of the meeting be a joint agreed peace statement.\nK:\nWell, that's easy.\nZ:\nMake sure, you know, pictures taken at the start, fine, but any\nreake release of the--\nK:\nThe only thing we can agreement to I want to get that straight--\nfirst that there will be a simultaneous release. I cannot get\nagreement to the proposition that we have to clear the pictures.\nZ:\nNo, no, I understand that.\nK:\nThe pictures will be taken simultaneously, each side releases\nitxx\nits own.\nZ:\nYes.\nK:\nYou understand.\nZ:\nSure.\nK:\nNow you have to tell me before I leave, you know for example,\nhow do I get the pictures back. They ømay not agree to hold it\nfor a week. How much time to you need to get that stuff back.\nZ:\nWell, I'll have to find out about that.\nK:\nCan you work that out.\nZ:\nYep. If not, we--okay, we'll have to see what we can do.\nK:\nAnd secondly, I count on you to keep Herb Klein under control\nand let me make the following clear. He is not to deal with the\ninformation ministers in these countries either. He can tell\nme what he wants, and I'll raise it with Le Duc Tho and Chou.\nThat's how I get my action, and I'll follow his guidance but I\ndon't want him to horse around with a subordinate official of the\ninformation in this thing.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n3\nZ:\nYear.\nK:\nLe Duc Tho will handle whatever wegree to. Afterall he got\nMurray out of there with a minimum of guidance.\nZ:\nRight.\nK:\nAnd he's going to do the same thing if he wants to play ball,\nthe information minister can help there. In China, we've never\nhad anything out of China that we didn't want out.\nZ:\nYeah. Okay--\nK:\nI just don't want Herb to have daily press discussions, because\nit was different when you were there. You had American press\nto worry about; what the Chinese do is to put the press across\nthe street from the Great Hall of the People where they can just\nsee cars arriving, and they let them there at times when they\ncan clear the maximum confusion.\nZ:\nYeah.\nK:\nSo, just let these devious bastards handle it themselves.\nZ:\nI think so.\nK:\nYou get Herb positioned for ;me.\nZ:\nI will.\nK:\nGood.\nZ:\nOkay, bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon\nMr. Weinberger/Mr. Kissinger'\n11:15, Feb. 5, 1973\nK:\nHello.\nW:\nHenry this is Cap.\nK:\nI don't usually talk to consultants.\nW:\nI know, I think it's pretty far down the line or I wouldn't blame\nyou if had rather rigid policy about the whole thing. (Laughter)\nI'm three degrees south of limbo, so I figure you are taking\nthe call in my hour of need. I'm calling on behalf or make a\nsuggestion that Jospeh Martin, Jr., he's our Ambassador\nto the CCD, HEADing that delegation, and has sort of been in\nlimbo himself since all of the changes at ACTA and Jerry Smith,\nDeborcha, and all the rest of it, might be a pretty good man to\nconsider for one of the number of posts. He's pretty anxious to\nget back to his law practice in San Francisco and hasn't heard\nanything from anybody really since the election. I've talked to\ntwo or three people including Malek and others who are supposed\nto make recommendations, and I'm just kind of afraid he'll be\nlost. Do you know him at all, Henry.\nK:\nNo, I don't.\nW:\nHe's a very good man, very good attorney in San Francisco,\nand seems to have done very well with the little good he's done\ndown there, the people seem to think very highly of him, and I\ndidn't know if that job ofpermanent representative of the U.N.\nwas still open or if--he thinks he can combine a lot of things\nbefause he said the job at the CCD hasn't been nearly enought\nto keep him busy. He thought maybe since they moved SALT\nto Geneva, he might be able to wash this CCD. That's just\ngeneral conference on the disarmament. He's being going over\nthere since--\nK:\nCan you send me a note on it.\nW:\nSure, yeah, I'd be glad to do it. I was just afraid, cause he's\nwritten kind of a long final sort of letter here that maybe he was\ngoing to get away and I thought he was a pretty good man. I\ndidn't know if you were familiar with his work or not.\nK:\nXM No, I'm not.\nW:\nThey seem to like him over at ECDA, although that's now been\nreduced by a third, and it's shrinking.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nW:\nI'll put it in a memo.\nK:\nGood, bye.\nW:\nThank you Henry.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nJerry Schecter/Mr. Kissinger\n11?57 a. m. 2/5/73\nJS\nHi Henry. Getting ready to go? I'm all packed- - were you able\nto get anything through to them?\nHK:\nI told them that I have no objection to their letting anyone in and I've\nmade clear that this particularly includes weeklys. that's as far as\nI could go.\nJS:\nI see--\nHK:\nI can't single anyone out because the next time they go public, there\nis no telling which of my messages they may publish.\nJS:\nOkay. I certainly appreciate that and maybe we'll hear something. What\ndo you think about meeting you some place along the way--\nHK:\nLike where?\nJS:\nI gather you 've got to stop some place after you get out of there-\nHK:\nOh you mean in between?\nJS:\nYeh.\nHK:\nThat's up to you.\nJS:\nIf I could have a few minutes with you if things work out that workx way\nHK:\nYOu know, I've always done that but I'd rather not S chedule that before--\nJS:\nI understand that, good. good. Thanks a lot, I'm just trying to get\norganized here to get into orbit and just wondered where things were.\nHK:\nI personally would be delighted if you were in Hanoi.\nJS:\nI'll cable Le Duc Tho right now and say that (laughing)\nI just don't know what to do anymore at this point.\nHK:\nWell, what do they say when you apply?\nJS:\nThey haven't said anything. There are guys in Paris who said you know\nwe are going decide and sure you'll go and the people who have sent sort\nof character references haven't heard anything back either. If I am going\nto go I've got to go on Friday so, - I would have to go through Moscow\nI would think.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nHK:\nI'm arriving Friday night.\nJS:\nThen I've got to go sooner then.\nHK:\nThat is going to be one of the most touching arrival scences every--\nLe Duc Tho embracing me dancing girls\nJS:\nCan't I carry your bags or something-\nI really would like to see that. Isn't there any way we could get a pool\nor something from this end.\nHK:\nWell, that's between you and Ziegler.\nJS:\nAll right. I'm going to buy him lunch today.\nThanks a lot Henry. If I'm not in Hanoi, maybe I'l be some place\nalong the way where are you going to stop--in Bangkok or Hong Kong\nHK:\nBangkok, or Hong Kong or maybe Japan, I've haven't decided yet.\nOne of the three places.\nJS:\nOkay. Good. I'll see you\nHK:\nYou don't try the Chinese the you don't care whether they let you in\nor you've given up on them?\nJS:\nNo, but you're only going to be there for 4 days--do yo u think they'd be\nopen to having somebody there.\nHK:\nI have no way of knowing.\nJS:\nWell, last time they sent Reston down to Canton when you were there--\nHK:\nThey didn't send him, they kept him there.\nOkay.\nJS:\nOkay. Thanks.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nMr. Kissinger/H. J. Heinz\n2/5/73 12:03 p.m.\nH:\nHenry, good morning.\nK:\nJack, how are you?\nH:\nVery well. I had hoped I might see you on Thursday night in New York,\nbut I'll have to use this to say that--\nK:\nWhat is Thursday night?\nH:\nLast Thursday night--the dinner for Mr. Heath that the President\nhad--\ne\nK:\nOh, yes. No, I couldn't come.\nH:\nIt was just as well. Henry, what I have the joy of saying to you that\nwe the American Bilderberg gang whom you know would like to\nrecommend to the Prince his inviting you at our behest for the next\nmeeting, if you might be available. It happens to take place in the\nmerry month of May. Like the evening of the 10, 11, 12 and 13th\n--Fri., Sat., Sun..\nK:\nWhere?\nH:\nIn Sweden\nK:\n(laughs)\nH:\nWhere one may take one --the last time I was there with Pete, I got\nphotographed jumping into the ice-cold lake after a sauna bath and\nthe caption was Prince Berna swims after a suana. But It was me.\nI don't know what you are like to be doing or do you?\nK:\nNo, I don't. In principle, I always like Brider Phil deBerg and I almost\ncertainly can't come for the whole time, but I'd like to make an effort\nand I could conrect to something--I might stop into NATO or something\nlike that.\nH\nRight. If you put down, Thursday evening, the 10th--but the sessions\nare the 11, 12 and up until\nK:\nWhere is it--Saltzebaden (sp?)\nH:\nYeh. Right. And let me tell you what the subject matter is, which\nfits in with the second subject indeed is wait divergent views\nas to the outcome of the European defense discussions.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nK:\nWhat is the first dubject?\nH:\nThe first subject is -- and this really makes me the possibility\nof a European energy policy and its impact on North American\nrelations. Now Walter Levy is doing the American piece and young\nSpock is doing the European one. Interestingly quickly Spock said\nwell until we learn what America's energy policy is we can't put our\nhouse in order and it will be damn difficult when we know that.\nBut that's the subject, energy internationally and the defense thing.\nK:\nYeh.\nH:\nI'll confirm this in a note to you. Well look\nK:\nLook in principle let me say yes, I like to go and Builderberger's\ngroup--I've always enjoyed, I'm almost certainly not going to be\nable to come the whole three days what is it Friday, Saturday\nand Sunday again?\nH:\nYes it is.\nK:\nAnd - what I might do is arrive say Friday evening\nH\nLet me find out the order of the subject matter because I take it0-\nis it what I assume right that the second subject is of greatest\ninterest to you--or both?\nK:\nThere are both actually of interest, but the second I have more to\ncontribute to\nH:\nI'll let you know the timing then.\nOne thing I hope I can be discreet without embarrassment; as you know\nwe generally have the Undersecretary of State and George Ball, of\ncourse, was came for a long time before Dean Rusk would you find\nit understandable if we asked--is it Mr. Rush?\nK:\nKen Rush--no, I'd find it delightful.\nH:\nParticularly that makes an important backup if you can t come at the\nlast minute.\nK:\nI think it is a good idea.\nH:\nIt seems to me that it would be a good thing if you were both there.\nK:\nKen is a good friend of mine--no embarrassment whatsoever.\nH:\nThat's very nice - then it is a good arrangement.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 3\nK:\nIt's excellent. No problem. Incidentally, I appreciated both your\nletter and your wife's.\nH\"\nMy dear fellow--among thousand I don't know how he could remember-\nthe only thing that I remember this morning is that Beatty Beale loves\nyou - she was on the Today show.-\nK:\nAh huh. I didn't know that.\nH:\nHenry, I hope to see you You - Douglas Fairbanks, I was staying\nwith had hoped to se e you again.\nK:\nOh in Palm Beach.\nK:\nWell, I have no immediate plans. No.\nH:\nI imagine you are all busy in your next trip.\nK:\nThat's right. But when I come back I am thinking of taking a vacation.\nIn March sometime\nH:\nOh well, may I drop you a note in saying how to get us in Nassau because\nwe'll be there.\nK:\nCould you--I might love to do that.\nH:\nWe have a few English chums that would very nice girlike Jane Gunther\nwill be there then and Bindy Lampton. All right I'll wix write you a\nnote and tell you what to do .\nK:\nYou are very nice.\nH:\nLook XEXX xforward to seeing you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nFred Brisson/Kissinger\n2:58 p.m. - 2/5/73\nK:\nHello,\nB:\nHow are you, Henry?\nK:\nFreddie, how are you?\nB:\nIt's a happy time to talk to you.\nK:\nAren't you nice but you were a good friend when things were tough\ntoo.\nB:\nAnd listen I think what you're doing now and the way you're doing\nit is fantastic. You're going to leave this weekend, aren't you?\nK:\nI'm leaving on Wednesday unfortunately.\nB:\nOn Wenesday. Then we're going to miss you because Roz is comin g\non Wednesday night and will be there for about 4 or 5 days.\nK:\nIsn't that a shame.\nB:\nI should tell you something very important is going to happen in\nMay. Rosalind - there's going to be a big television spectacular\nat the Kennedy Center for Women of Achievement and the kind of\nwomen it's for is people like Anne Armstrong, Katherine Graham,\nwomen in economy business, public affairs, and so forth. It's\na big television spectacular that's going to be done at the Kennedy\nCenter and we'll be there for 4 or 5 days.\nK:\nWhen will that be ?\nB:\nMay 21st - it's a long time ahead but I thought I'd tell you so if you\nare going to be there then we'll be there between the 19th and 22nd.\nK:\nAbsolutely, we must do something, but I hope we see each other before\nthen.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nBrisson/Kissinger\n2\n2:58 p.m. - 2/5/73\nB:\nWhen you come back will you come back here again or will you\ngo to the Coast or what - do you know?\nK:\nI'll come here unless the President is still on the Coast in which\ncase I might go out there for a couple of days.\nB:\nWe skipped the Inauguration as you probably are aware.\nK:\nRight.\nB:\nFor a rather good purpose. You know why?\nK:\nOur mutual friend Frank went just a little haywire.\nB:\nYeh, it's a pity isn't it?\nK:\nYeh, although he was essentially right. I wouldn't have used those\nwords but the sentiment is correct.\nB:\nAbsolutely 100% correct. And he's always been right using those\nterms. Unfortunately certain things were said that\nK:\nThey didn't clean up his vocabulary.\nB:\nThat's right. That's right.\nWhen do you think you'll be back, Henry?\nK:\nI'll be back on the 20th.\nB:\nNow that you'll have completed the Third Act I'm anxious to book\nyou in a play and to really get going now.\nK:\nWell, it's the leading ladies that I have to know about before I can\nmake any final commitment.\nB:\nAll right, I can get you Mrs. Marks (?). I had dinner with her the\nother night.\nK:\nI don't want Mrs. Marcus, I know her.\nB:\n(Laughs) You know she stayed on til 7 and left on the 9 o'clock plane\non Saturday.\nK:\nShe is something.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nBrisson/Kissinger\n3\n2:58 p.m. - 2/5/73\nB:\nShe's unbelieveable.\nK:\nShe's a determined lady.\nB:\nShe sure is.\nK:\nShe went in to see the President for 10 minutes and practically\nthrew herself on him stayed for an hour and a half.\nB:\nIsn't that amazing. She should know so much better, you know.\nWell look we'll talk when you get back and at least make a mental\nnote of this thing on the 21st. You'll probably come to Calif. inbetween.\nK:\nI hope so.\nB:\nIt was nice seeing you out there at New Year's and thank God everything's\ngone well.\nK:\nIt was marvelous to see you and your friendship at that time really\nmeant a great deal to me.\nB:\nYour friendship always has.\nK:\nEspecially then.\nB:\nWell that's what we're put on earth for you know. This thing on the\n21st is going to be very interesting because they're going to have a\njury of people like Eunice Shriver and Margaret Truman and Barbara\nFranklin and so forth and it's going to be a sort of women's lib thing\nyou know. And you'll see a lot of interesting peo ple that night.\nK:\nRight. Give my love to Roz and tell her if I'm in town I'll be there.\nAnd of course I'll see you also separately.\nB:\nOK and in any event give us a call if you should come to LA inbetween.\nI'm in New York now but I'll be going back in March.\nK:\nGood.\nB:\nBy the way if you get a chance look at the Academy Awards on the\n27th of March she's getting the Academy Award for the Humanitarian Award\nthis year which is fabulous because she's the first film actress whose\never received it.\nK:\nIt couldn't happen to a nicer person.\nB: Good luck, Henry.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nDr. Donald F. Hornig, Pres. of Brown U.\nMr. Kissinger\n5:04, Feb. 5, 1973\nH:\nMr. Kissinger.\nK:\nYes.\nH:\nThis is Don Hornig of Brown University.\nK:\nHow are you?\nH:\nWell, I'm just fine. I trust you're feeling pretty good these days.\nK:\nYeah, I'm doing fine.\nH:\nThe reason I called you was to inquire whether there was any\npossibility of persuading you to come to Brown sometime during\nthe spring after your return from China to give what is our most'.\ndistinguished lecture on foreign policy and international relations.\nThe Steven Ogdon Memorial lecture.\nK:\nMust it be this spring.\nH:\nYes, it would have to be this spring sometime between now and\nMay 1st. And I guess what would be ruled out would be the period\nof the spring recess which March 31 to April 8.\nK:\nCould you write me a letter, I won't be able to let you know; until\nI get back from my trip.\nH:\nI'd be pleased to write you a letter.\nK:\nIt doesn't have to be a long one. Just two paragraphs, just so that\nI have it before me.\nH:\nAll right. I would appreciate it if you could let us know then without\ntoo much delay because--\nK:\nI could let you know by March 10th at the latest. Or is that too late?\nH:\nThat would be fine.\nK:\nThat would be two weeks after my coming back, I'll be back here\non the 20th.\nH:\nI see, no I understand how pressed you are, you know in a University\na lecture has got to be given each year.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nK:\nRight/\nH:\nYes, I'll write you then.\nK:\nGood. Bye.\nH:\nThank you very much. Bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nNIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS PROJECT\nDOCUMENT CONTROL RECORD\nITEM REMOVED FROM THIS FILE FOLDER\nSANITIZED\nA RESTRICTED DOCUMENT OR CASE FILE HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM\nTHIS FILE FOLDER. FOR A DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM REMOVED\nAND THE REASON FOR ITS REMOVAL, CONSULT DOCUMENT ENTRY\nNUMBER\n2\nON EITHER THE DOCUMENT WITHDRAWAL RECORD\n(GSA FORM 7292 OR NA FORM 1421) OR NARA WITHDRAWAL SHEET\n(GSA FORM 7122) LOCATED IN THE FRONT OF THIS FILE FOLDER.\nA sanitized copy substituted for an original item which\nContains information restricted under the Privacy Act.\nNATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION\nNLN FORM 101 (revised 6-85)\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nHank Trewhitt/Mr. Kissinger\n5:08, February 5, 1973\nK:\nHello.\nT:\nHi.\nK:\nHow are you?\nThey\nnu C nam\nT:\n/Tell me that North Vietnames nukmon(?) is far better than the\nsouthern variety and I expect you to bring back a gallon.\nK:\nAbsolutely.\nT:\nDo you know what nukmon (sp) is.\nK:\nYeah, it's horrible stuff.\nT:\nIt's a splendid fish sauce.\nK:\nI know, just the smell of it drives me up the wall.\nT:\nListen, there are two things bothering me--in trying to anticipate\none from, especially China, one is we don't start thinking in terms\nof formal relations yet do we?\nK:\nNo, it's just on television it's further down the road.\nT:\nBut we don't- -\nK:\nYou mean with China.\nT:\nYes.\nK:\nNo.\nT:\nBut we might think of some rather concrete results to be announced\nafter you are back.\nK:\nI don't expect that, look, this is all -- you are still influences by\nyour old confreres over there.\nT:\nI try not to be.\nK:\nI mean by the way of thinking. We have very satisfactory communi-\ncations with the Chinese right now.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nT:\nAnd so, yeah.\nK:\nI mean, what do you think would happen if we had an office in\nPeking. Who do you think would conduct the business.\nT:\nYou ;would.\nK;\nThat's right.\nT:\nOr Rogers would.\nK:\nNot through that office.\nT:q\nA perfectly good point, of course. I suppose it would--\nK:\nThis is all off the record.\nT:\nOh, sure.\nK:\nI'm not going there to achieve any announceable results.\nT:\nThat really is kind of---\nK:\nI'm trying to get our perception of the international environment\nin line.\nT:\nGood. The other thing that is; bothering me specifically is\nwe want to do a story out of your CBS interview. On the kinds\nof things the NSC is now doing, looking down the road, what kind\nof studies you have underway. Is that verboten territory or\ncan we talk in general terms about the kinds of things--\nK:\nNo, that's fair enough.\nT:\nEnergy, obviously.\nK:\nRight.\nT:\nWhat else?\nK:\nNATO. European relations. I mean you could do that as speculation.\nT:\nSure, absolutely.\nK:\nEuropean relations, middle East--\nT:\nRoughly you have cut up all the major problems, then, ;for that kind\nof treatment.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n3\nK:\nSoutheast Asia, I mean post-Asian -0 post southeast-Asian\nposture for the United States.\nknow\nT:\nRight. I don't/if I mention to you the other day that I wanted to\ndo some European stuff and I have the Powell House on top. You\ndon't mind that kind of thing as long as it's completely off the'\nrecord and general kind of information, do you.\nK:\nNot at all.\nT:\nI have no desire to get--\nK:\nOh no, you're a responsible guy.\nT:\nI have no desire to spring secrets, I just want to keep--\nK:\nAs I told Eliot when I ran in to him the other day, that as long\nas he sends me the\nwe're doing all right.\nT:\nWell, not trying to get that kind of word out in New York. How\ndo you handle these special projects when they come up -- with\nyour own staff people or is there an inter-change kind of thing.\nK:\nWell, partly with my own staff people and we have a we have\na massive study on SALT II, on the future of strategic arms.\nT:\nAll the way across the spectrum.\nK:\nYeah. I have inter-agency meetings and I have my staff work\non it too. I just came from a two hour session with the Verification\nPanel.\nIt's not done on a unilateral basis.\nT:\nWe are not dealing on the kinds of things that we see sudden and'\ndramatic evidence of at any stage, they are the kind of things that\nqe we see reflected in the diplomacy, and I suppose we are already\nseeing evidence of them.\nK:\nYou'll see them over a period of six months.\nT:\nCan you give me guidance any further as to whether you are going\nto be directing them.\nK:\nOh, well I'll still be in my job (laughter). I'm trying to hold the\nposition that I'm going to do some thinking after I get through with\nthis job. With this present phase. Oh, I'll probably be here in\nsix months.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nT:\nYeah, I hope you stay around. I'll make you a small wager, if\nyou really don't know and if you are not pulling my leg,\nI'll make you a small wager that you are here in the middle of\n1974, but I don't think you're going to be able to tear yourself\naway from Europe.\nK:\nWell, that's quite possible. I think it's safe to say I'll be here\nin six months.\nT:\nI'm going to ask you a question that I dislike intensely but I have\nto do and you can stay off the record or anything you like, but\nI have a query here from one of the back of the books departments-\nare you going to marry Nancy Maginnes?\nK:\nI really have no plans to get married.\nT:\nCan I say that.\nK:\nWell, you can't quote SANITIZED.\nT:\nWhat if I use this kind of line, I'll say - friends of Kissinger say\nthey don't believe he has any plans to get married. Some such\nthing as that.\nK:\nThat is right.\nSANITIZED\nT:\nRight. He has no plans in other words, Dr. Kissinger says he\nhas no plans to~-\nK:\nThat's right.\nS\nT:\nOkay, I'll be talking to Hal and getting some general guidance\nfrom him on this question of the kinds of studies that are being\ndone.\nK:\nOkay, good.\nT:\nWell I think that holds me then.\nK:\nGood.\nT:\nThank you very much.\nK:\nNice to talk to you.\nT:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\ntelcon\nProf. Graubard/Mr. Kissinger\nFebruary 5, 1973 - 6:15 p.m.\nK:\nHello.\nG:\nHi, Henry.\nK:\nHow are you?\nG:\nI'm well. How are you?\nK:\nOkay.\nG:\nVery good I pray.\nK:\nI'm fine.\nG:\nGood. Henry, can I ask you two quick questions?\nK:\nRight.\nG:\nFirst, I do have the whole of my manuscript -- that is, in galley proof.\nWould you like to see it at all?\nK:\nWell, if you can leave it here, I'd like to take a glance at it.\nG:\nOkay. Now, the thing is -- let me tell you my big problem and this\nis so big that I probably should come to see you about see. And the\nreal question is whether you can see me. I have not yet written what I\nfind a satisfactory epilogue to the whole book and I'm stuck on a very\nimportant point. Do you remember Nixon's foreign policy -- Foreign\nAffairs Article of October 67?\nK:\nYeah.\nG:\nI don't know much of it but I find some similarity between what is in there\nand what you wrote for Rockefeller in the following\nK:\nI haven't read it for years.\nG:\nYou have not?\nK:\nNo.\nG:\nAnd you had nothing to do with the writing of it?\nK:\nNo. I never met him before.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nProf. Graubard/Mr. Kissinger\n- 2 -\n6:15 p.m., February 5, 1973\nG:\nNo, but did you speak to any of his staff?\nK:\nI doubt it.\nG:\nReally? Because it is just fantastic because it\n....\nK:\nI had nothing to do with it.\nG:\nRight. Okay. Do you think the ideas were simply in the air or do you\nremember the article, Henry?\nK:\nI never read it until after I came to work here.\nG:\nReally? Okay. Well, I find -- I am really amazed at the similarities.\nK:\nWell, I have talked to Ray Price years ago. But I didn't know he had\nworked for him.\nG:\nReally? Do you have a sense or can you remember - -- or would you\nthink Ham Armstrong would know who wrote it for him?\nK:\nRay Price.\nG:\nRay Price did write it for him.\nK:\nYeah.\nG:\nBut you hadn't been talking with him at the time.\nK:\nNo.\nG:\nYou see, what I'm really left with is it would almost appear as if what\nyou're saying in the following May or June comes out of what he has\nalready said the previous Article.\nK:\nWell, I had never seen it but that's entirely -- you know, I - - --\nG:\nOkay. Henry, when do you actually leave?\nK:\nOn Wednesday morning.\nG:\nOn Wednesday morning. I'm just trying to think of how I could get these --\nK:\nWell, where are you?\nG:\nI'm in New York. If\nshould talk to you, she isn't coming to\nWashington until next week. But I'm really quite I must say the\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nProf. Graubard/Mr. Kissinger\n- 3 -\n6:15 p.m., February 5, 1973\nG:\n(cont'd) similarities are such that I was almost prepared to say that\nyou had talked a good deal to some people who had taken down what you\nhad said.\nK:\nWell, if they were, they are people that I'm not familiar with it.\nG:\nWell, they are literally passages where I sort of -- paragraph A is\nstraight, Henry. Paragraph B, probably he had nothing to do with.\nK:\nWell, all I can tell you is I hadn't read the Article when I wrote the\nRockefeller stuff. And I didn't know the people who did the Articles.\nG:\nReally? Yeah. You think Ray Price is the one who did most of it?\nK:\nYeah.\nG:\nAnd you had met him once or twice only.\nK:\nI had met him a few times but not right that time.\nG:\nReally? Okay. Well, then I don't know what to do about this. You see,\nwhat I'm really --\nK:\nPlease, I unfortunately have to run.\nG:\nOkay. Any chance of my seeing you tomorrow if I came down?\nK:\nNo, I'm just overworked.\nG:\nOh, I see. Then I don't know how I can get this to you before you leave.\nK:\nWell, you can drop it at the office but there would be practically no\nchance of seeing me.\nG:\nYeah, yeah.\nK:\nI'd love to read it on the plane.\nG:\nWell, I'd love to get it to you.\nK:\nPlease, I'm really totally overworked.\nG:\nOkay. Henry, bless you and take care.\nK:\nGood. Thank you.\nG:\nGoodbye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon\nRowland Evans/Mr. Kissinger\n6:47, Feb. 5, 1973\nK:\nHwllo.\nE:\nHenry.\nK:\nRollie.\nE:\nHow's the world's leading stateman.\nYou have a minute now.\nK:\nI don't really think so.\nE:\nHow about tomorrow, early.\nK:\nEarly I can't do it.\nE:\nYou can't have a quick breakfast, seriously.\nK:\nNo, no I have already made two breakfast dates, so I don't see\nhow I can make a third.\nE:\nWell it depends on a lot of things. You could break the other two\nand make one. Just have one breakfast with me.\nK:\nOh, I'll do ;my best to--\nE:\nWhat do you think, how Ed about early before breakfast.\nK:\nWell my breakfast is at eight.\nE:\nYou never have coffee at your house, do you.\nK:\nNo. How long do you generally want.\nE:\nHonestly, if I could talk to you ten or fifteen minutes.\nK:\nI've just got, I'm so piled up with things I've got to do.\nW:\nWhat about late tomorrow.\nK:\nLet me try for late tomorrow. I'l,1 do my damndest to see you\nbefore I get away.\nE:\nYou really would--leaving ten o'clock wednesday. Do you want me to\nde call.\nK:\nLet's talk first thing in the morning.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nE:\nWhen do you want me to call you, at nine.\nK:\nYeah.\nE:\nNine in the morning. All right, cause I really do want to see\nyou before you go, Henry.\nK:\nWell, let's try for around five--\nE:\nFive, tomorrow.\nK:\nYeah.\nE:\nWell, I'll call you first thing in the morning.\nK:\nGood.\nE:\nAll right, sir.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon\nDavid Frost/Mr. Kissinger\n7:00, Feb. 5, 1973\nK:\nDavid, how are you.\nF:\nMarvelous, thank you, marvelous.\nCongratulations.\nK:\nCongra Thank you.\nF:\nWhen do you meet again.\nK:\nWednesday morning.\nF:\nWednesday morning, as soon as that, golly.\nI was going to say I might--of course it was announced for\nFeb. 9th, so that's when you get there.\nK:\nThat's when I get there.\nF:\nAh hah. I was going to say I was going to be in Washington on\nThursday probably, but\nK:\nOh, what a pity. Well I'll be back on the 19th.\nF:\nOh, well, lovely, we'll look forward to seeing you then. I don't\nsuppose, this is a mad Idea I had realizing what a tremendous\npeace making trip this is to Hanoi, I don't suppose there would be,\nwe've often discussed the thought of television, I don't suppose\nthere would be any way if you had total approval of soon afterwards,\nof a camera and me accompanying you to Hanoi. Would there--\nK:\nNo, I don't think I can do that.\nF:\nIt's the wrong sort of trip for thatisn't it.\nK:\nThat is right.\nF:\nYes. Cause on the other hand in terms of the peace making positive\nside, of course it is a tremendously positive trip in that sense, isn't\nit. That would be the wrong trip for it would it?\nK:\nI probably think so.\nF:\nJust reading about it, I suddenly had the thought that it would be\na-- you know, rather than a hard news conversation, it would\notherwise have been a tremendous time for a reflective peace\nmaking tkype of conversation. How did the conversation go last\nweek on CBS. It seemed to be very well reported and warmly\nreported.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nK:\nWell it went all right.\nF:\nOne paper said you looked nervous. I couldn't believe that was\npossible.\nK:\nI don't believe that's true.\nF:\nDid you get the cable we sent you from the Caribbean.\nK:\nI was very--I called your office.\nF:\nOh, yes, I got the message. I got the message you had called\nbkut I didn't know whether you had called before receiving that\nor not.\nK:\nI was very touched by it.\nF:\nWell we were both thrilled and particularly thrilled by the delayed\nin the sense that they were belated and deserve earlier but the\ncompliments in the New York Times and so on.\nK:\nWell, that was very nice.\nF:\nWe were very thrilled on your behalf. Well I wish you bon voyage\non this trip.\nK:\nThank you David, will you call me as soon as you get back.\nAs I get back.\nF:\nAbsolu tely, yes. When kyou fly on a trip like this, do you take\na break on route.\nK:\nI may take a break for a day on the way.\nF:\nI see, just to referesh up.\nK:\nWell just so that I'm not going from Hanoi to Peking.\nF:\nTo readjust.\nK:\nTo take away implications.\nF:\nI see, dh I see. How far is it between the two in flying time.\nK:\nOh, it's about four hours. But I'll actually have a day in between.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n3\nF:\nOh I see. Well I'll give you a call on--\nK:\nI'll be back here on the 19th.\nF:\nWell I look forward to seeing you as soon aftsr that as possible.\nK:\nExcellent.\nF:\nVery good. Lovely hearing you, very bon voyage.\nK:\nNice to talk to you David, and love to XX Diahann.\nF:\nI will indeed.\nK:q\nBye.\nF:\nHers to you. Bye bye for now Henry.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSec. Richardson/Kissinger (Secure Phone)\n7:10 p.m. - 2/5/73\nK:\nHello Eliot.\nR:\nHi, Henry, how are you?\nK:\nGood. Can I get that paper on Formosa that I asked for ?\nR:\nI will check on it right away. When are you leaving?\nK:\nFirst thing Wednesday morning and I must have it tomorrow morning.\nR:\nCan I get back to you in a few minutes. I will see where it is. We\nplan to get it over tonight. It hasn't come in to me yet.\nK:\nRight. And you are going to make sure it is realistic according to\nwhat the President promised.\nR:\nWe thought it was related directly with the Vietnam buildup. At\nany rate we now have a breakdown that will give you more information.\nI asked to have it done on a basis that would allow you in effect to\nchoose among various levels of relocation pending on what you thought\nyou had to do.\nK:\nRight. Good.\nR:\nWe can certainly get it to you tomorrow. Do you want it tonight?\nK:\nWell, first thing in the morning is soon enough and I will get over\nthose NSSMs to you first thing in the morning but I am leaving out\nthe ones on\n.\nR:\nOK, Henry.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973\nP:\nHenry, what did you find on Agnew today. I've been quite busy and wasn't\nable to check with anybody.\nK:\nHe's following the procedure that you and Bob and I discussed -- that is\nto say, he'll come back via Hawaii. He's not going to CINCPAC.\nP:\nRight. Then I'll probably go to California. He'll be there when? On\nthe 10th or the 9th?\nK:\nOn the 10th.\nP:\nWell, that's all right, that's Saturday and I'll see him. I'll just see him\nand I just won't bother with the Cabinet thing with him.\nK:\nI don't think it's necessary. And you have the best excuse in the world\nhaving offered it to him.\nP:\nYou did offer him that in a message, didn't you?\nK:\nOh, yeah, that was the reason we gave him for coming back. I'll just\ncheck. [Speaking to Gen. Scowcroft: Isn't that right? We told the\nVice President we wanted him back for the Cabinet meeting?]\nRight, we did do that.\nP:\nRight.\nK:\nSo he's had that offer. Now he has to go to California.\nP:\nRight. Then what I will plan is to stay there until you return on the 19th\nthe 19th is what day?\nK:\nMonday.\nP:\nThat will be the 19th or it could slip till the 20th, is that right?\nK:\nWell, no, it will be late on the 19th that I will be back. I'll be back\nin the afternoon of the 19th.\nP:\nThere is no possibility that your Chinese thing might want to slip a bit, huh?\nK:\nNo.\nUnless you want me to. But if you wanted to stay an extra day, I\ncould easily\nI'd prefer to stay an extra there with you and not go back\ntill the 21st or the 22nd.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n- 2 -\n7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973\nP:\nYeah, I was thinking of that but I was thinking too of your getting back\na day late. You've told the Chinese that you have to be back on the 19th,\nright?\nK:\nRight. But I was going to -- The Japanese have made an urgent request for\nme to stop off and I was going to do that.\nP:\nOh.\nK:\nBut that would just take a couple of hours. That would still get me : . --\nIt would perfectly logical, Mr. President, I would come in about 7 o'clock\nin the evening in San Clemente.\nP:\nRight.\nbe\nK:\nSo that I would reporting to you -- I mean, formally we can put out I report\nto you that evening. The morning of the 20th.\nP:\nUm-humm.\nK:\nSo there would be no need to leave - -- It's entirely up to you, of course.\nP:\nWell, no problem.\nK:\nOn the 21st or 22nd.\nP:\nYes.\nK:\nFor selfish reasons, I'd welcome to get a little rest out there.\nP:\nRight, right, right. Well, then your plan would be to get -- to be in by the\n19th at 7 o'clock.\nK:\nGive or take an hour.\nP:\nThat's Monday, fine.\nK:\nThat's Monday evening.\nP:\nRight. You'd get in Monday evening. Okay, that sounds fine. And Agnew\nis doing all right on the rest of this.\nK:\nAgnew actually has done well.\nP:\nGood.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n- 3 -\n7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973\nK:\nHe's been quiet -- he hasn't got much publicity -- I mean, he hasn't sought\nmuch publicity.\nP:\nFine, fine. What else has happened today on all fronts? Anything new\nin the ceasefire and everything going well, huh?\nK:\nEverything has gone quite well. The North Vietnamese have now agreed\nto Paris on the 26th and we're ready to make that announcement tomorrow.\nP:\nUh-huh/\nK:\nDo you have any preference whether we should make it or State should\nmake it?\nP:\nWell, what do you suggest. I mean, it's whatever is best for us.\nK:\nWell, it's always an advantage to show White House control.\nP:\nSay we announce it -- let Ziegler announce it.\nK:\nOkay, I'll have Ziegler announce it.\nP:\nI think it's best, Henry.\nK:\nI think so.\nP:\nCause it's not just a -- Something we've gone all the way through and we\njust\nThat's right.\nK:\nAnd we just announce the next step. And we can do it in a fairly low key\nway but it just shows that the ball keeps moving.\nP:\nRight.\nK:\nOtherwise, Cambodia is still quiet. The Laotians are a little bit jumpy,\nwhich always happens as settlement approaches. I may it may be\nnecessary on the way in to Hanoi, I could stop there on Friday night rather\nthan spend two nights in Bangkok. It's on the way. Godley urges it\nstrongly. I want to check what Sullivan thinks of it.\nP:\nAre you going to take him with you? Oh, yeah, you are.\nK:\nYeah.\nP:\nLet me say, I lean to it. I lean to it frankly. I lean to it. You tell\nSullivan I lean to it and he'll lean to it. The main point is that anything\nthat will shore up our allies. Basically, you've got to realize the other\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n- 4 -\n7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973\nP:\n(cont'd) side is weak here now and if we can shore our guys up, they\nmay last a hell of a lot longer than anybody thinks.\nK:\nAnd it's a reasonable thing to do because we're on the way -- In Laos,\nthere's still a war going and in Vietnam, there isn't. And we just had\nthe Vice President in Vietnam. The only reason we didn't schedule it to\nbegin with was so that Thieu's feelings wouldn't get too hurt but then you're\ngoing to see Thieu and we're not going to see Souvanna.\nP:\nThat's right. Now, when you stop there, they still won't still have had\na ceasefire.\nK:\nWell, actually right now the major obstacle to a ceasefire strangely enough\nis our guys.\nP:\nWell, why don't you tell them that you'll stop there if they have a ceasefire?\nK:\nWell, I don't think they can move that fast but I think I can certainly\nbeat them towards a ceasefire.\nP:\nThat's my point. Use the fact that you're stopping for leverage,\nK:\nWell, I think we can get into a ceasefire if I stop there within a couple\nof days anyway.\nP:\nThat would be a good thing, you see.\nK:\nThat's right. And I think it's probably a useful thing to do and then\n....\nP:\nI would strongly urge it.\nK:\nWell, I'll send them a message saying I'm willing to come.\nP:\nGood.\nK:\nNow on Hussein I've sent a book over to you. I think the major thing\nnow is to just listen to them and then wait to see what we get from the\nEgyptians. And then wait to see what we get from Golda Meir. before\nyou make any final commitments.\nP:\nRight.\nK:\nThe peace settlement we have put in the briefing paper. Some things you\ncan offer them in the economic field, which will please them.\nP:\nUh-huh. Well, okay, that's about all we can say to them I guess.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n- 5 -\n7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973\nK:\nWell, the key is Egypt at this point. He doesn't have a very concrete\nproposal and he can't make a separate settlement anyway.\nR\nP:\night.\nK:\nBut he's by far the most reasonable of the Arabs.\nP:\nOh, yes, I know. Just hope he survives.\nK:\nExactly, exactly.\nNow the Egyptians have said that in order to come\nover here, they may want an official invitation and then off from that to\nsee me privately. That, of course, will get State into the act in the worse\npossible way but if worse comes to worse, we can agree to it and have\na base talk at State and then have the guy disappear out of New York.\nP:\nYeah. I think we could do that.\nK:\nWe'll try to dissuade them but they are so\n...\nP:\nIf they want it official, let it be that. I mean, let State babble around about\nit but - --\nK:\nThat's right.\nP:\nYou mean, who would talk to -- the same man would talk to the people\nat State ?\nK:\nThat's right.\nP:\nAnd then, how would he get to see you then?\nK:\nWell, what he would do is to say he would want two days in New York\nquietly on personal business and just go up to New York and then we'd\nbring him back down here.\nP:\nWhere would you see him ? In New York then?\nK:\nI could either see him in New York or bring him back to Camp David.\nP:\nWell, if he goes to State, I'd see him in New York.\nK:\nRight.\nP:\nIf he's going to go to State openly, I'd go up to New York.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n- 6 -\n7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973\nK:\nRight.\nP:\nDon't you think so?\nyou pull him out of State to Camp David, that\nwill just send everybody right up the wall.\nK:\nWell, I think it's the fact that my seeing him is going to drive people up\nthe wall.\nP:\nBut if you' re in New York\n...\nWell, I know\n...\nI see your point, yeah.\nK:\nIt may be hard to pull off Camp David now because that's been an official\ninvitation - -- I mean, that they already know. But we could discuss it\nwith the people who are arranging their meetings.\nP:\nYeah, yeah. You mean, you think that you've got a problem in seeing him\nat all at Camp David because of the State thing, huh?\nK:\nNo, I have a problem -- So far it hasn't surfaced in the State yet. I won't\nhave trouble seeing him at Camp David. I don't think State --\nP:\nI don't think we ought to have -- Basically, the official thing really concerns\nme. Well, if you see him secretly at Camp David, that's going to surface\njust as sure as hell.\nK:\nOh, no, that's going -- In either case, it's going surface. In either case,\nit has to be announced. The only point is one spins off the official visit\nand has the advantage that it keeps some of the heat on State for having\nhim here. The other at least keeps State out of it until we know what we're\ndoing. There's no chance at keeping it secret when you're dealing with\nEgyptians.\nP:\nI'm inclined to letting him go over and see State under those circumstances\nand just try to control it as well as we can, and then see him. But under\nthose circumstances, you should see him in New York and not at Camp David\nthough. I kinda like that a little better. But they know that you've invited\nthem to Camp David.\nK:\nYeah, that's the problem, Mr. President. It may be tough to do now.\nP:\nWell, it's not easy is it?\nK:\nWell, I don't think State or anyone else cares whether I see him in Camp\nDavid or some other place.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n- 7 -\n7:59 p.m., February 5, 1973\nP:\nI see. It's just the fact of seeing him, yeah.\nK: Yeah.\nP:\nOkay, fine, I think we can work it out.\nK:\nRight. Well, those are the major things that have happened today.\nP: Fine. Okay.\nK:\nRight, Mr. President.\nwgh\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon\nAmb. Sullivan/Mr. Kissinger\n9:00 pm, February 5, 1973\nK:\nHello.\nS:\nYes, Henry.\nK:\nBill, ;I had a bleeding cable from Godley.\nS:\nNow what?\nK:\nWell, Laos feels deserted and if I overfly them it's a disaster,\ncould't I stop there Friday night. The President thinks it might\nnot be a bad idea, do you have any objections.\nS:\nNo, I think it would be a good idea as far as the Lao are concerned.\nWhat happens as far as South Vietnam's Mr. Thieu, and so forth.\nK:\nWell, you could say they don't have a ceasefire yet.\nS:\nYes, I see your point. I think it can be -- probably if you are\ngoing to do it you should send some sort of message to Saigon\nto explain in advance why you are doing it.\nK:\nRight.\nS:\nI think it would be very helpful if you can manage to--\nK:\nOkay, then I'll tell them we'll proceed.\nS:\nYeah. Have you ever been to--yes you've been there.\nK:\nNo, I haven't.\nS:\nOh, well, you've got a delightful thrill coming (laughter), not\nbad as a matter of fact.\nK:\nWhat do you mean, not bad.\nS:\nI think to go to Laos, I didn't realize you haven't been there before,\nthat's very good. Yes, I think that's a good idea because they seem\nto be Souvanna personally doesn't seem to be bleeding, but all his\nsubordinates do and I think this is partly because he just hasn't\nbothered to keep them informed. He understands the situation\nbut--\nK:\nLook I may go to Japan after, that's another bleed from Ingersoll,\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n2\nafter China, and I understand that coincides with your trip there.\nS:\nYes, I'm just picking up a plane there. I'm coming out of Seoul\non the afternoon of the 19th.\nK:\nYeah, I'm leaving on the afternoon of the 19th, if you want a ride\nback, but I may go to San Clemente, so you may be better off\ntaking a plane back to Washington.\nS:\nWell, we'll talk it over, as you wish, I could debrief to you on\nthe plane on the way back and then get a plane fro m Los Angeles\non the back to here.\nK:\nOkay, fine.\nS:\nI'm loose. I'll do it either way. I've got--\nK:\nOkay, good. Now even so you should tell Hogan he's less thatn-\nyou should tell him anyway.\n$\"\nAll right. You mean you're going to meet with Japanese government\nofficials.\nK:\nYeah, I'll meet Tanaka and Ohira.\nHogen\nS:\nOkay, well I'll talk to that Irishman Hogan and you can talk to\nthat Irishman Ohira.\nK:\nYeah, but since I will tell them nothing, I must tell them at least\na little more than you.\nS:\nI van do that.\nK:\nAnd I couldn't stand it if you told them more than I had. I can't\nhave my honesty impuned.\nS:\nHonesty we can't impune, no. I'll work on negative thoughts.\nWe can talk about that on the--\nK:\nOkay, then I'll be delighted to give you a ride back.\nS:\nYeah. All right, then I'll work it out with Brent so that our times\ncoincide.\nK:\nGood.\nS:\nOkay, Henry. Bye.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified."
}