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Volume 23, May 1 – May 10, 1936
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Volume 23, May 1 – May 10, 1936
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Henry Morgenthau, Jr. Papers
Diaries of Henry Morgenthau, Jr.
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DIARY
Book 23
May 1 - May 10, 1936
- I 1
Book Page
American Red Cross
Memorandum from General Counsel as to whether Secretary
of Treasury can resign from Board of Trustees -
5/15/36
XXIII 20-84
Appointments and Resignations
Max O'Rell Truitt considered as successor to
Robert L. Jackson - 5/4/36
36-38
a) FDR endorses
b) Oliphant report
c) Jerome Frank's recommendation
Associated Gas and Electric Company
Resume 5/5/36 to 2/10/37
73-79
- B - -
Byrd, Harry F. (Senator, Virginia)
See Revenue Act, 1936
- C -
Canada
Further conference with representatives of Canadian
distillers - 4/30/36
(Graves memorandum)
6-8
Further conference with representatives of Canadian
distillers - 5/4/36
(Graves memorandum)
25-27
Further conference - 5/6/36
(Graves memorandum)
117-119
China See HMJr-Chinese delsgation conversations, Book LXXVIII, page 190
See also Silver
Conference: Chen and Koo, Taylor, Lochhead, and White - -
4/28/36 (Taylor memorandum)
1-3
Viner memorandum concerning present negotiations
21
Taylor memorandum calling attention to certain points in
memoranda submitted by Chinese representatives 5/6/36.
112-114
Civilian Conservation Corps
See Financing, Government
Draft of HMJr memorandum to FDR as to difficulties of
securing full enrollment (not sent)
182-184
Corporations
Thomas L. McCarter (President, Public Service Corporation
of New Jersey) sees HMJr concerning simplification of
corporate structures without risk of unbearable and
unknown tax liabilities 5/5/36
32-34
Countervailing Duties
Sayre (State Department) sends to Golden W. Bell (Assistant
Solicitor General) memorandum concerning, stressing injury
to United States trade - 5/4/36
40-43
Regraded Unclassified
- C - (Continued)
Book Page
Crowley, Leo T.
Wheeler (Burton K.) letters to O'Connor and Jones -
5/5/36
XXIII 85-90
HMJr memorandum to O'Connor, reminding him that, on
3/22/35, he asked that case be settled - 5/5/36
91
(Copies of note and telephone conversation 3/22/35,
pages 105-107)
a) O'Connor reply
92-98
b) HMJr's reply to O'Connor
108
c) HMJr tells McIntyre of his note to O'Connor
99
HMJr, O'Connor, and McReynolds confer - 5/5/36
100-104
HMJr, Jones, O'Connor, and McIntyre to confer; HMJr asks
Crowley to hold himself in readiness for call to
White House - - 5/6/36
129 A-C
HMJr tells "Tim" Fox to stay out - 5/6/36
129 D-E
- F -
Financing, Government
HMJr and Bell confer with Tugwell and Baldwin (Resettlement
Administration) - 5/4/36
44-57
HMJr and Bell confer with Hopkins - 5/5/36
58-59
a) Estimated funds needed by Works Progress Administration,
assuming that present financial procedure is not
revised
60
b) Estimated funds needed by Works Progress Administration,
assuming that present financial procedure is revised
61
c) Works Progress Administration employment program
62
d) Works Progress Administration funds as of 4/20/36
63
e) Obligations and expenditures
64
f) Estimated cost for May, 1936
65
g) Status of funds allocated to specified agencies 4/20/36.
66
HMJr tells FDR if all the $48 million assigned to Tugwell
for purchase of land is not obligated, balance should be
cancelled; FDR agrees - 5/5/36
67
HMJr suggests to FDR that unexpended balance by Civilian
Conservation Corps be turned over to Hopkins - 5/7/36
130
FDR asks that Bell report on ell unexpended balances
130
Hopkins and Bell confer again with Hopkins - 5/8/36
131
a) HMJr does not want any of $1.5 billion obligated
or spent before July 1
b) Bell works out unexpended balances
132,133
c) FDR authorizes transfer of 5% of unexpended balances
to Works Progress Administration - 5/7/36
134-135
- G -
Germany
Sayre (State Department) sends to Golden W. Bell (Assistant
Solicitor General) memorandum concerning countervailing
duties, stressing injury to United States trade - 5/4/36
40-43
Regraded Unclassified
- H -
Book Page
Housing
Conference: HMJr, Jones and Alley of Reconstruction Finance
Corporation, Bell and Opper - 5/8/36
XXIII 193-197
a) Wagner bill resume
198
- L - -
Liquor
See Canada
- M - -
May, George 0. (Senior Partner - Price, Waterhouse, and Company)
Challenges Treasury estimates - See Revenue Act, 1936
151-161,
168-171,
174-176,
186 A-J
McCarter, Thomas L. (President, Public Service Corporation
of New Jersey)
See Corporations (simplification of structure)
32-34
Mexico
Viner memorandum concerning negotiations 5/2/36
31
Suarez proposal concerning use of silver inside Mexico
discussed by HMJr and Mexican Ambassador - 5/7/36
137-139
a) Suarez memorandum
141-147
- N - -
New Orleans, Louisiana
Index of cases - 5/9/36 to 8/11/36
200-208
- 0 -
O'Connor, J. F. T. (Comptroller of Currency)
See also Crowley, Leo T.
Memorandum to HMJr concerning violation of rule that
all bills should be cleared through Director of Budget -
5/6/36
120-122
a) Taylor memoranda attached
b) Memorandum on bill in question "to provide a
national currency by pledge of United States bonds
and to provide for circulation and redemption thereof"
123-124,
126-127
Wall Street Journal 5/6/36: "O'Connor's bank bills opposed
by Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation"
128-129
Regraded Unclassified
- P
Book Page
Price, Waterhouse, and Company
For George 0. May criticism of Treasury estimates,
see Revenue Act, 1936
- R -
Radio Addresses by HMJr
HMJr considers one for Sunday night 6/14/36: "50 weeks
of the 52-week fiscal year have passed, If et cetera -
5/4/36
XXIII 39
Relief, Unemployment
See Financing, Government
Resettlement Administration
Tugwell and Baldwin confer with HMJr and Bell - 5/4/36
44-57
Revenue Act, 1936
HMJr asks concerning proposed tax on undistributed
earnings - - is it fair to small business man? - 5/1/36
5
a) Oliphant's answer
13-19
b) Viner's answer
20
Haas testimony before Senate Committee - 5/1/36
9
New York Times: "Senators move to increase tax bill yield
$190 million after Morgenthau plea" - 5/1/36
10-12
HMJr asks concerning loopholes - 5/4/36
22
a) Oliphant's memorandum
70 C
HMJr and Upham join conference in Harrison's office at
5 P.M. 5/7/36
148-150
George May challenges part of Treasury estimates
a) Drafts of HMJr's letter to Harrison, concerning
151-155
b) Press conference
156-161
c) HMJr discusses with Upham, Haas, Bell, Taylor, Gaston,
and Oliphant
168-171
1. HMJr wants to invite outstanding economist
to check estimates
2. Taylor suggests alternate plan (see pages 172-173)
d) New York Times article concerning HMJr-May correspondence
5/8/36
174-176
e) HMJr discusses article with Earle Bailie - 5/8/36
186 A-J
Senator King requests estimates of yield of certain tax
proposals
162-165
Senator Byrd (Harry F.) addresses letter to HMJr, concerning
certain financially strong corporations "which will pay
little or no tax if pending bill is passed" - 5/8/36
166-167
HMJr tells FDR, Pat Harrison wants to see him (FDR); HMJr thinks
Treasury should have dress rehearsal first - - 5/8/36
185
- S -
Silver
See also China
Senate Resolution introduced by Senator King, inviting
Governments of America, including Canada, to attend
conference to increase use of silver - 4/24/36
70 F
Regraded Unclassified
- 8 - - (Continued)
Book Page
Stabilisation (arranged chronologically)
HMJr talks with Cochran - - 5/1/36
XXIII 4-4 E, 28
a) Franc is weak
b) British Stabilization Fund deals directly with
the French banks
c) British will do all possible to keep French
from devaluing
d) Cochran will see Schacht over week-end
HMJr talks to Cochran 5/4/36
43 A-E
a) Could not see Schacht (still in Berlin)
HMJr talks to Cochran - 5/5/36
68 A-E
a) Situation worse; British Control is intervening
Knoke's telephone conversation with Bank of France -
fairly quiet in France - 5/5/36
69
HMJr and Bewley dine with Taylor - - 5/5/36
70
a) Bewley embarrassed at not having received reply
from England for HMJr
b) HMJr again indicates advantage of opening channel
to exchange information
c) Tells FDR of talk
Knoke's conversation with Bolton of Bank of England
asking whether United States Treasury would purchase
gold at $35.00 for shipment to New York - 5/5/36
72
a) Lochhead's conversation with HMJr, concerning..
72 B-C
Knoke tells Bolton United States Treasury will not pay
price for gold abroad which, with shipping charges
added, bringscost of delivery in New York above $35.00
per ounce - 5/6/36
115-115 A
Cabinet (French) members will remain until June 1 - so
Cochran tells HMJr; has quieting effect - - 5/6/36
116-116 D
FDR and HMJr confer - 5/7/36
136
a) "England looking which way to turn in case France
goes off gold"
Bankers Trust Company, London, cable concerning inclusion
of Bank of England by Secretary of Treasury for gold
shipments 5/5/36
136 B
Knoke-Bolton (Bank of Englend) conversation 5/8/36
181
a) Paris conditions not 80 bad 88 day before - almost
panic then
b) Distinct weakening in position of Dutch and Swiss
- T -
Taxation
See Revenue Act, 1936
Truitt, Max O'Rell
See Appointments end Resignations
- W -
Works Progress Administration
See Financing, Government
Regraded Unclassified
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
1
PNTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION
DATE May 1, 1936.
TO
Secretary Morgenthau
FROM
Mr. Taylor
Subject: Substance of conference of the Chinese representatives -
Mr. Chen and Mr. Koo - with Treasury representatives -
Mr. Taylor, Mr. Lochhead, and Mr. White - 3:00 P. M.,
April 28, 1936.
1. Industrial use of silver.
Mr. Chen reported that his Government informed him the prohibition
of the use of silver in the arts which had been imposed by the decree
of November, 1935, was to be removed. The Chinese Government was quite
willing to postpone, if the Secretary so requested, announcement of the
change for inclusion in a public statement of the results of the con-
versations with the United States.
Mr. Chen submitted the estimate of 12 million ounces 8.8 the annual
amount of silver that had been used in the arts before the 30 per cent
provision was imposed. He felt this estimate to be very conservative.
2. Silver coins.
Mr. Chen reported that his Government had informed him it "agreed
in principle" with his recommendations of the coinage of yuan and half-
yuan coins (described in report of previous meeting). The Chinese
Government was not certain whether the silver content of the new coins
would be the one recommended by Mr. Chen, but it would not be less.
The Chinese Government, however, wished to go slowly in the matter and
therefore intended to first issue only half-yuan coins. If these ro-
ceived a satisfactory reception from the public, the yuan coins would
be issued.
It was suggested by the Treasury representatives that if, as Mr.
Chen reported, the Chinese Government definitely intended to issue the
silver coins with at least the recommended silver content, it might be
better to include in the memorandum for the Secretary & more definite
statement than that the Chinese Government "accepts the idea in principle".
Mr. Chen indicated his acquiescence to that suggestion.
Regraded Unclassified
Secretary Morgenthau - 6/1/36, 2.
2
3. Silver reserves.
With regard to the suggestion cabled to his Government that it con-
sider the desirability of keeping & minimum of 25 per cent in silver,
computed at market bullion value, against the outstanding note issues,
Mr. Chen reported that his Government's reply was favorable. His Govern-
ment was perfectly willing to accept such a suggestion, but it would
prefer, if agreeable to the United States, to make the reserve 25 per
cent of the cash reserves instead of 25 per cent of the outstanding note
issue.
It was pointed out by the Treasury representatives that the latter
proposal would tend to weaken confidence in the yuan at this time, and
that since China would probably have silver in excess of 25 per cent of
her note issue for some time to come, it were preferable, from China's
point of view as well as from our own, to have the reserves BE first
proposed -- namely, EL minimum of 25 per cent against note issue.
Mr. Chen then raised the question es to the method of computing the
value of the silver in the reserves. He said his Government wished to
have it understood that it reserves the privilege of modifying the
method of valuation as follows:
(a) To value the silver in terms of old yuans rather than
at its world metallic content. The Chinese felt that inasmuch
as their silver reserves were chiefly in the form of these old
yuans such a practice would be accepted by the public as B. most
reasonable one.
The Treasury representatives agreed to this, pointing
out that such a practice would protect the Chinese against 8.
decline in the value of their reserves should the price of silver
decline, and also make it possible for them to increase their
reserves in the event of a. rise in the price of silver by melt-
ing down the old yuans coins and valuing silver at its metallic
content.
(b) The second modification proposed by the Chinese Govern-
ment was that at same indefinite time in the future - probably
after the new yuan coins had become generally accepted into
circulation - the basis of valuing the reserves would be the
nominal value of the new yuans.
It was pointed out that this would have the effect of
greatly reducing the strength of the reserves inasmuch as the
new coins contain much less silver than the old coins. The view
was also expressed that such 8. modification might reduce confidence
Regraded Unclassified
3
Secretary Morgenthau - 5/1/36, 3.
in the yuan, since it might be interpreted as a device to permit
an undue expansion of note issue. The Treasury representatives
stressed the importance at this time of doing nothing which would
tend to weaken the confidence of the Chinese people in their our-
renoy - a point which Mr. Chen himself never misses an opportunity
to reiterate - and it was suggested that a change of that kind in
computing the value of the silver reserves were best postponed
until China's monetary system was in a stronger position. The
Chinese representatives indicated their agreement with this view
and said they would recommend to their Government that such a
method of valuation be eliminated.
4. Yuan-dollar-sterling exchange rate.
Mr. Koo described in some detail the exchange operations as they
had been relayed to him in a cable just received. The altering of the
dollar rate, he explained, was a consequence of the adoption of a policy
designed to prevent the impression that the yuan was depreciating, and
that the currencies happened to have moved in a way necessitating altera-
tion of the official dollar rate in order to avoid that impression. He
stated that it was the policy of the Bank to peg its currency to the
one which was appreciating, and that had sterling dropped below $4.88
the dollar rate would have been kept unchanged and the sterling rate
altered in Shanghai.
It was pointed out that as it has so far worked out this practice
made it a little more difficult to accumulate foreign exchange. Nor did
the cable satisfactorily explain, from the United States' point of view,
why in the first place 8. fixed sterling rate WELS selected rather than 8.
fixed dollar rate to provide the impression that the yuan was not de-
preciating.
It was agreed that a clear, definite statement repeating the fact
that the yuan WBS not pegged either to the dollar or to sterling might
be satisfactory in lieu of an opportunity to alter the sterling rate.
4
Friday
May 1, 1936
HMjr:
Cochran?
H. M.
Cochran:
Mr. Morgenthau -
HMjr:
Well, what's new today?
C:
The franc is rather weak today. There's some selling
of dollars by the Guaranty - two and a half billion
dollars so far sold.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And
There may be a little
more advance but the peak of the week is in London.
HMjr:
I don't get that.
C:
People are selling francs directly through the control.
HMjr:
Now, say that again.
C:
It is
that they are going to be
today.
HMjr:
Well, you say that people are selling francs?
C:
Yes, yes the French banks are selling francs directly
at London.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- through the control.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
So the British control is handling quite a good many
today.
HMjr:
Now, say that again, please.
C:
I say, there is little trading on the French Market here.
HMjr:
Over-trading?
C:
There is little trading on the French Exchange Market.
HMjr:
What kind of trading?
C:
There is very little --
HMjr:
Very little trading?
C:
It is all being done in London.
Regraded Unclassified
4A
-2-
HMjr:
In London?
C:
There the Frenchmen and French banks are selling
francs directly through the British control.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
The people here are buying dollars to some extent.
HMjr:
They are doing what?
C:
- are buying some dollars -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- such as two and a half billion sold by my neighbor
here today.
HMjr:
Your neighbor?
C:
The Guaranty -
HMjr:
Oh, yes
C:
But most of the franc is in the sterling.
HMjr:
In the sterling?
C:
Yes
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And so the pressure is rather strong today.
HMjr:
There's a what?
C:
The pressure -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
The pressure on the franc is bad.
HMjr:
I don't get that.
C:
I say, the franc is weak.
HMjr:
The franc is weak?
C:
Yes, the pressure on the franc is - is heavy.
HMjr:
I'm sorry, I don It get it.
C:
Well, the franc is weak, that I said.
Regraded
4B
-3-
HMjr:
The what?
C:
There are many people who want to sell their francs.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
So it is weak as is result.
HMjr:
I don't get that.
C:
Well, you do have it that they want to sell their
francs?
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Well, that's the point.
HMjr:
I see, all right.
C:
They are afraid.
HMjr:
I see.
Now, -
anything new on the political
situation?
C:
No, there is a lot of horse-trading back and forth,
you see?
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But they don't know how complete discipline the Front
Populaires will find on Sunday. But it still looks to
me as if they will round a big majority.
HMjr:
They'll do what?
C:
That the Left -
that the Left party -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- will have a majority on Sunday.
HMjr:
I see - and that means the present government will
fall?
C:
Well -
oh fairly good, I think.
HMjr:
What?
C:
Fairly large - but it's still difficult to tell.
HMjr:
And it still looks like Reynaud?
Regraded sified
4C
-4-
C:
That's the proposition put up by those young men, you
know -
HMjr:
I get you.
C:
But there is no public discussion on that whatever.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But that's the plan those fellows have up their sleeve.
HMjr:
I get you.
C:
If the situation gets bad enough.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Between you and I -
If it doesn't get bad enough
then no word is said about it.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
The present man would try to patch up the
HMjr:
Yes
C:
HMjr:
All right - Your cables yesterday were very good.
C:
Beg your pardon?
HMjr:
Your cables yesterday were very good.
C:
All right, fine.
HMjr:
All right
C:
I think I forgot one -
I talked to the market people
today -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And the situation with respect to American shares is
practically the same.
HMjr:
All right
C:
And I've seen some other people so I'll give you their
views.
HMjr:
All right.
Regraded Unclassified
40
-5-
C:
And on that other matter do you want me to see our
friend or not?
HMjr:
Well, let's - let's wait until we see what happens
in France first.
C:
My point is this, that he has returned to Badenweiler.
HMjr:
Oh -
C:
And he will be there until about the sixth I think.
On the sixth he has to go to Breslau to give his
speech. And if you wanted me to see him -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
I could leave here - I could go down on Saturday
night.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- take an automobile from Basel - it's only thirty
miles from Basel and come back on Sunday night's train.
HMjr:
Oh, you could?
C:
Yes
HMjr:
Just be away Sunday?
C:
Just be away Sunday.
HMjr:
I think that would be a good idea.
C:
And I - I've been thinking it over since I talked
with you yesterday -
HMjr:
I think that would be very good.
C:
And I read that
-
that he had returned there.
I haven't tried to get in touch with him directly.
HMjr:
Well, if you can be away just Sunday I'd do it.
C:
Fine - well, I'll telephone this man at Basel right
away.
HMjr:
Yes, yes -
C:
And if I can get an appointment for Sunday -
HMjr:
Yes
Regraded Unclassified
4E
-6-
C:
I'll go down.
HMjr:
0. K.
C:
Otherwise I'll wait until after the election, -
HMjr:
That's right.
C:
Takes place.
HMjr:
All right, thank you.
C:
I'll just try to get general
information.
HMjr:
That's right.
C:
HMjr:
Thank you
C:
HMjr:
Goodbye.
C:
Goodbye.
Regraded Unclassifie
5
May 1, 1936
HM, Jr. called the President and said he had talked
to Coohran again and the interesting thing is that the
British Stabilization Fund deals directly with the French
banks; that the British will do all they can to keep the
French from devaluing; that we bought another $500,000
worth of gold last night and that Cochran is going to see
Schacht on Sunday -- he knows him personally and is going
to see what he can find out.
At the meeting of the group at 9:30, HM, Jr. asked
whether the provision in the pending tax bill, which places
a tax on undistributed earnings, is fair to the small busi-
ness man. He said that the way the thing is set up now,
companies like Chrysler and General Motors through this
bill get an exclusive franchise and that a man who wants
to start in business today hasn't a chance. Oliphant sug-
gested that if the tax bill does not permit a small concern
to continue in business that the Government could subsidize
it, to which HM, Jr. strenuously objected. He said, "That
is just what we don't want to do." He feels that under
this bill we are doing just what NRA did -- it is a great
thing for big business, but ruinous to small business.
HM, Jr. said, "I still have not had an answer to my
question as to whether it is fair to the small business
man.
Turning to George Haas, he said, "If there are answers,
three cheers! But if there are not, let's be big enough
to correct this thing and throw it out. The pride of
authorship 18 not the important thing if it is going to
hurt small business."
Regraded
See Page 2-
S
OFFICE OF
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
WASHINGTON
M
THE SECRETARY
May 1, 1936.
MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY:
Further conferences were had yesterday afternoon, April 30, with
representatives of the Canadian distillers, Seagrams, Hiram Walker,
United, and Consolidated.
These conferences had originally (with the exception of Hiram
Walker) been set for earlier in the week, but were postponed until
yesterday at the request of the Canadians.
In the initial conferences which occurred last week, as reported
to you in my memorandum of April 24, the Government's conferees made
it clear to the representatives of the companies that the companies
would be expected to submit specific offers in compromise of the Gov-
ernment's claims, and, in the event these should prove unacceptable,
specific proposals to submit to the jurisdiction of our courts and
to secure the payment of any judgments which might be obtained. The
expectation was that such specific proposals would be made at yester-
day's conferences (except in the case of Hiram Walker).
I regret to inform you that, except for United Distillers, the
representatives of the companies made no such proposals at yester-
day's conferences.
United Distillers.
United Distillers, through Mr. Locke, submitted a specific offer
in compromise in the sum of $225,000 (of which $25,000 was for the
account of 8. company known as Coast Breweries). Mr. Locke stated
that he had no proposal to make, and would make none, under the
second alternative, and indicated that this was the final offer which
he was prepared to make. He was informed that his offer would be
taken under consideration, and that he would subsequently be advised
of its acceptance or rejection.
Seagrams.
Mr. Phillips, representing Seagrams, made no proposals or sug-
gestions whatsoever. Although he had requested, and had been granted,
Regraded Unclassified
No dinner. A trip to Seagram's
distillery at Relay, Md., where
the guests were furnished food,
all the drinks they cared to consume
and a quart to take with them as a
souvenir.
7
Memo. for the Secretary-2
more than a week's time to enable him to consult with "Interested parties,"
with 8. view to making a specific proposal to submit his company to the
jurisdiction of our courts and secure judgment, he stated at yesterday's
conference that he could make no such proposal. He simply repeated re-
quests which he had made at last week's conferences for information as
to the amount and character of security which the Government would con-
sider acceptable. He was informed, ss before, that the Government would
expect him to take the initiative in this respect. You will recall that
at last week's conferences Mr. Phillips made an offer in compromise of
$500,000, which was promptly rejected. He at that time indicated that
this was the maximum amount which he was prepared to offer in settlement
of the Government's claim, and that, in view of the rejection of this
offer, his further suggestions would be limited to the second alternative
(submission to jurisdiction and securing judgment). At the earlier con-
ferences, there was protracted discussion between Mr. Phillips and the
Government's conferees with respect to this second alternative. The
Government's conferees made it clear to Mr. Phillips that the Government's
position with reference to security Was fairly represented by the pending
legislation (as revised in conferences between the State and Treasury
Departments), but that the Government would be prepared to receive and
consider any alternative proposal which Mr. Phillips might care to make.
In view of this, it was confidently expected that Mr. Phillips would sub-
mit specific proposals at yesterday's conferences, but, 68 has been said,
be made none.
Mr. Phillips was advised by the Government's conferees that if he
cared to confer further with regard to the proposed settlement, he would
be given full opportunity to do BO, and be advised that he would return
to Washington on Monday, May 4, for this purpose. It is presumed that
at that time he will submit a specific proposal on the second alternative.
Mr. Phillips indicated his belief that the attitude of the Govern-
ment's conferees was unfair to his company, and stated that he would be
compelled to call this to the attention of the Canadian Government.
Mr. Phillips referred at the outset of yesterday's conference to
the entertainment furnished by the Seagram Company on Saturday, April
18, to the 30 called "Little Congress." He stated that there W8.6 no
connection between that episode and the present negotiations, and
that he had been unaware that any such thing had occurred until the
matter was called to his attention B. few days ago by the Canadian De-
partment of External Affairs.
penateries and Congress Anothers
Consolidated Distillers.
Mr. Forsythe, representing Consolidated Distillers, submitted to
the Government's conferees the current financial statements of his
company, with a view to demonstrating that it was in no financial position
Regraded Unclassified
8
Memo. for the Secretary-3.
to make either a substantial offer in compromise of the Government's
claim, or any proposal to secure payment of judgment. In the end, he
suggested that he would be willing to make settlement on the same basis
that was followed in the settlement of the Reifel case last August.
This would mean a settlement, as he said, in the neighborhood of $125,000.
The Government's conferees pointed out that the circumstances surrounding
the Reifel settlement were peculiar to that case, and that the Reifel case
could not be taken as a precedent for the settlement of claims against
other companies. Mr. Forsythe agreed to consider the matter further,
and to advise on Monday, May 4, whether he could make further proposals
on behalf of his company.
Hiram Walker.
Mr. Lash, for Hiram Walker, advised that he was in no better posi-
tion than he had been at the earlier conferences to make suggestions for
the settlement of the Government's claim. He said that Mr. Hume, presi-
dent of the company, was to arrive that evening (April 30) in New York,
and that until he had seen Mr. Hume he could add nothing to what he had
stated at the conferences which occurred last week.
Mr. Lash said that the Canadian Department of External Affairs had
called his attention to the fact that this Government had reported that
his company did not consider itself bound by the agreement between the
two Governments, as represented by the memoranda of April 10 and 15.
He said he wanted it understood that he had instructed his company,
during the pendency of the present negotiations, not to increase its
exports to the United States above the normal rate, and not to permit
the exportation of Hiram Walker merchandise to other countries; but
he took pains to reiterate his former position, saying with considerable
emphasis that his company was not a party to the arrangement proposed
by the Canadian Government as represented by Mr. Wrong's memorandum of
March 31.
OBSERVATIONS.
The opinion of the Government's conferees continues to be, as
before, that neither Seagrams nor Hiram Walker is carrying on the
present negotiations in good faith, and that neither company has any
intention of making an acceptable offer for the settlement of the
Government's cases.
We feel, however, that both United and Consolidated are endeavoring
to arrive at a settlement.
GRAVES.
Regraded Unclassified
9
[UNREVISED PRINT]
REVENUE ACT, 1936
HEARINGS
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE
UNITED STATES SENATE
SEVENTY-FOURTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
ON
H.R. 12395
AN ACT TO PROVIDE REVENUE, EQUALIZE TAXATION
AND FOR OTHER PURPOSES
PART 2
MAY 1, 1936
m then
Printed for the use of the Committee on Finance
UNITED STATES
GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
una
WASHINGTON : 1936
Regraded Unclassified
THINT
eceΓ TOA
ЗЭИТЛАЯН
are
HONANIA 700 MATTIMMOO
ITAXHS STATE CITIZU
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE
KAVHS
CONTENTS
PAT HARRISON, Mississippi, Chairman
WILLIAM H. KING, Utah
JAMES COUZENS, Michigan
Page
WALTER F. GEORGE, Georgia
HENRY W. KEYES, New Hampshire
Statement of-
DAVID L WALSH, Massachusetts
ROBERT M. LA FOLLETTE, Ja., Wisconsin,
Edmonds, Franklin Spencer, Philadelphia, Pa., representing the
ALBEN W. BARKLEY, Kentucky
JESSE H. METCALF, Rhode Island
Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce
61
ToM CONNALLY, Texas
DANIEL 0, HASTINGS, Delaware
Fulbright, R. C., representing the Southern Pine Association
131
THOMAS P. GORE, Oklahoma
322
ARTHUR CAPPER, Kansas
Haas, George C., Director of Research and Statistics, Treasury
29
EDWARD P. COSTIGAN, Colorado
JOSIAH W. DAILEY, North Carolina
survey
or
T16
2A
Klein, Department Joseph J., New York City, chairman, committee on Federal
BENNETT CHAMP CLARK, Missouri
UKA
legislation, the American Society of Certified Public Accountants
93
HARRY FLOOD BYRD, Virginia
Lane, E. H., the Lane Co., Inc., Altavista, Va
112
AUGUSTINE LONERGAN, Connecticut
Seidman, M. L., New York City, chairman, taxation committee, New
HUGO L. BLACK, Alabama
York Board of Trade, Ine
79
PETER G. GERRY, Rhode Island
Wilson, Paul H., Worcester, Mass, representing the Graton & Knight
JOSEPH F. GUFFEY, Pennsylvania
123
ITHAS
Co
FELTON M. JOHNSTON, Clerk
III
II
WELL
WEXTERS
Regraded Unclassified
REVENUE ACT, 1936
FRIDAY, MAY 1, 1936
UNITED STATES SENATE,
COMMITTEE ON FINANCE,
Washington, D. 0.
The committee met, pursuant to adjournment, at 10 n. III, Senate
Finance Committee room, Senate Office Building, Senator Put Harri-
son presiding.
Present: Senators Harrison (chairman), King, George, Walsh,
Barkley, Connally, Bailey, Byrd, Lonergan, Black, Gerry, Guffey,
Keyes, La Follette, Hastings, and Capper.
The CHAIRMAN. The committee will be in order. All right, Mr.
Hans, you may continue from where you left off yesterday.
STATEMENT OF GEORGE C. HAAS, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH AND
STATISTICS, TREASURY DEPARTMENT-Resumed
Mr. Haas. On page 4, I think I will start at the beginning of the
paragraph, although I read part of that paragraph yesterday.
I have already pointed out that under the proposed law small
corporations-I might say, with regard to small corporations, that at
the first stage of my statement I am going to put a footnote to explain
what I mean by small corporations; that is, corporations with a small
income, I will also indicate there that over short periods of time II
corporation with large assets may have a small income, but over any
period the valne of the assets are based upon income, and what 1 am
concerned with, and what affects my conclusions, is the general pic-
ture, even though there may be an exception here now and then.
Senator KING, Then you do not draw the line at $10,0001
Mr. HAAS, I draw it at $10,000. I mean small-income corporations,
but the fact that there are some corporations with large assets that
may have a small income during the period does not affect any of
my conclusions,
Senator KING. There are many corporations with capital stock
and assets probably of $1,000,000 or more, but with a heavy liability,
and would have no income at all. I have known of many such cor-
porations. In what category would you place them?
Mr. HAA8. The great bulk of them fit within my definition. Now,
a corporation of that sort that has listed assets, or has assets listed
at a certain valuation which total up large, does not mean that if
the income continues low those assets will have to be written down
so they become a small corporation, regardless of the fact they may
own half a county, if they are in a real-estate business, in a livestock
business, say. In other words, in the final analysis, from an economic
29
Regraded Unclassified
30
REVENUE ACT, 1050
REVENUE ACT, 1956
31
artive, the sure of the corporation over any period is its income, its
present income, and its anticipated future income. That is the basis
when paid out to their stockholders, than of large corporation. 1
for all valuations.
submit that this differential will give smaller corporations a chance
Senator KING. I know of many corporations where the capital
to eatch up upon their larger rivals which they never have had under
Mock actually paid in in cash is several million dollars and there Trus
any previous tax legislation.
been no income in the past a years.
I think I have made it clear that small corporations would be
Mr. HASS That is right.
given special advantages as compared with large corporations under
Senator KING. What category would you place those in
the proposed change in our corporation taxes, I now turn to the
Mr. HAAR I say, for the purpose of my conclusion, it does not make
objection that has been raised that the proposed change would pre-
any difference at all about where they are placed. They both full
vent larger, as well ns smaller, corporations from obtaining sufficient
within my definition. A small corporation is one with a small income.
enpital for expansion, because the proposed schedules of taxes are
I would ay further in regard to your inquiry, Senator, if that
graduated according to the percentage of corporate earnings with-
corporation, after " few years, did not come in, it would mean the
held from stockholders for reinvestment in the business.
aroads would have to be written down or come off altogether. The
The first answer to this contention is that the schedules already
fact that they had no current income would mean they would antici-
allow, besides the very liberal deductions from taxable income for
pate income in the future.
depreciations, depletion, bad debts and the like, the withholding by
I have already pointed out that under the proposed law small cor-
the corporation of 30 to 40 percent of each year's current earnings
porations would have a substantial advantage over large ones in the
upon payment of taxes less than the amounts payable under the
direct reinvestment of earnings. They would similarly enjoy two
existing law. For medium-sized and larger corporations, moreover,
advantages In in the process of growing through resubscribed earnings.
free access to the organized capital markets offers abundant oppor-
this the first place, the very compactness of a small corporation permits
tunities to all profitable corporations for such additional capital
is process to be carried on with a directness and informality which
funds as they may require.
small impossible for the larger corporations. If under the present law
Senator KING. Are you quite certain about that? You take a
corporations retain their earnings through the consent and
mining company, the investment market is not, as a rule, open to it,
because it is so much of a gamble.
checks be every bit as likely to use the proceeds of their dividend
agreement would of their stockholders, under the proposed plan, stöckholders
Mr. HAAS. Where do they get their money, Senator?
whole from the corporation to reinvest in additional stock.
Senator KING. They get it out of the people who want to invest
of resuberibing the all or a portion of such dividends to additional
operation of declaring out the year's profit us dividends The and
in it.
Mr. HAAS. Those who are gullible enough to go into a risky
might be corporation's stock, either pro rata or in such proportions shares
in The the collerse mutually of n. short agreeable stockholders' to the shareholders, could be completed 05
enterprise. Senator KING, Those who want to make the investment. They do
not borrow it, they have to get it from their own assets.
have which over would large Offes would be in the absolute general, would
offier advantage which small corporations, meeting. in
Mr. Haas. Because the industry is one that involves the higher
type of risk. It is a little more difficult to market their stock, be-
rule that the be available to be resubscribed. It amount is a of money
cause you have to select those people who are willing to go into an
the principal corporations are men of much smaller struggling, total and newly
established principal stockholders in small, good general
enterprise of that sort. Their capital market is somewhat more lim-
ited than other types of business with less risk. I think that is the
eurporations. stockholders in large, prosperous, incomes than
only difference.
back to the If, therefore, such principal and well-established
Senator KING. I know of an organization that proposed to invest
dividend receipts, corporation less the for income additional shares stockholders all or part subscribe of their
over $100,000 for the sinking of a shaft in a mining company. To
greater the gives in dividend the Chip of receipts subscribed tax thereupon, back them the proportion of
was n gamble. If they got the ore they would be repaid otherwise
they would not be repaid. If they got the ore then they would
of the sterage large the one. average The small corporation by than will in be the much case
have to pay an enormous dividend the first year, because if they got
upon which different exists because of the differing great importance of the difference
the ore it would be in bulk and it would be very profitable. So the
threat of this bill has prevented the consummation of this plan. I
while dividends income classes can best be individual income-tax rates
merely call your attention to that form of investment which has
of stockholders' which individual fall in incomes the bracket between seen when $10,000 it is and noted $12,000 that
done so much for the mining resources in the West, as well as the
between cont, individual un less income than tax, the the present dividends corporation will be taxes, reduced by by reason only 11 of per- the
petroleum interests and the coal interests.
Mr. HAAS. I do not see what effect, Senator, this bill has on the
decision which they might make. I see your point. You have to
varnings vidual income $100,000 tax. and In $150,000 other will be which reduced fall by in the a 62 income percent bracket indi-
reach il certain type of capital market because you have a certain
type of risk, but I will be glad to come back to that.
of mall corporations words, will be a available greater proportion for reinvestment, of the
Senator HASTINGS. Before you leave that, just above, in that same
paragraph you are quite certain of your figure when you say, "The
Regraded Unclassified
REVENUE ACT, 1986
33
32
BEVENUE ACT, 1936
Mr. HAAS. That in right,
withholding by the corporation of 30 to 40 percent of each year's
Senator BARKLEY. All the law requires is that the issuing of securi-
current earnings upon payment of taxes less than the amounts pay-
ties must be accompanied by a truthful statement as to the reason
able under the existing law."
for issuing them. The Exchange Commission does not exercise the
Mr. HAAR. I think it figures out, does it not, Mr. McLeod, frue-
right of deciding whether the stock shall be issued or whether the
tionally less?
capitalization should be increased. Of course, the same is true as
Mr. McLan. That is correct.
to the exchange.
Senator HASTINOS. All right,
Mr. HAAS. Shall I proceed?
Mr. HAAR. For many decades, growing and successful corporations
The CHAIRMAN, Yes.
have been shie to call upon their stockholders and others for addi-
Mr. HAAS. During the period between 1921 and 1930, inclusive, the
tional capital funds through the offering of rights to the stockholders
American Telephone & Telegraph Co. paid regular dividends nt the
to anbecribe for additional securities. Through the issuance of such
rate of $9 per share, the dividends aggregating about 854 millions
rights, any medium sized or large corporation whose stock is traded
during the 10 years. But, during this same 10-year period, the
in the securities markets may obtain the reinvestment in its business
corporation offered rights to purchase additional securities to its
of capital equal to all or any desired proportion of the current earn-
stockholders in 1921, 1922, 1924, 1926, 1928, and 1930, and in the
ingo that have been distributed in dividends; and, if need be, more.
aggregate raised about 950 millions of capital from its stockholders
Let me illustrate: Let us assume a corporation that desired to rein-
through the sale of such additional securities to them, or about
vest. in its business its entire earnings of $5 a share, but that never-
$100,000,000 more than the aggregate dividends paid to them during
theless, decided to pay out the whole amount in dividends
the period.
in order to avoid all corporate taxation under the proposed
Senator HASTINGS. Do you happen to know whether the same com-
law. Such a corporation could easily obtain the reinvestment in its
pany has made any such offer since 19301
business of this $5 per share by offering to its stockholders rights to
Mr. Haas. I do not believe so, I am not familiar in detail with
purchase additional capital stock well below prevailing market prices.
their business, but they probably did not have their stock requirement
The rights themselves would constitute a valuable marketable instru-
for expansion since that time, You see, we went into the very deep
ment which could be sold in the open market by any shareholder who
depression at that time.
was not disposed to reinvest his dividend check. It is equally ap-
Senator HASTINGS. I am wondering whether there is anything sig-
parent, of course, that the amount of money which can be obtained
nificant about that.
in this way is by no means limited to the amount of the earnings of
Mr. HAAS. I do not think they would have any difficulty today, if
lion can be effected by this means,
the corporation, but that any reasonable increase in total capitaliza-
they needed the money.
Senator HASTINOS. 1 am wondering whether there is anything sig-
Senator HASTINGS, Mr. Hans, may I inquire whether that would
nificant in the fact that that was done during the prosperous years
apply to the listed stocks, that argument?
and none of it was done during the depression.
Mr. HAAS. You mean listed on any exchange?
Mr. HAAR. Well, Senator, I think it is a very significant fact. It
Senator HASTINGS. Yes.
is difficult to invest in new business when earnings are going down,
Mr. Hass. Not necessarily. The fact that they are listed would
to increase the investment in business by plowing earnings back.
facilitate it, because the fact that they are listed tends to give the
The only time you can do that is when you are making money. So
stock a marketability which an unlisted stock does not have, although
there is no choice.
doing it.
many stocks traded over the counter would not have any difficulty in
Senator HARTINGS. Does not your argument rather prove that your
way of getting the funds back into the company in the form of a
Senator HARTINGS. Do you happen to know whether it would be
surplus can happen only in prosperous years and it does not apply
necessary for such a corporation to get authority from the Securities
Commission before it could offer these rights to the stockholders?
to depression years?
Mr. HAAS. In general I would say that is correct, and I would also
Mr. HAAR I do not know what that regulation is under.
Senator had HASTINGS. What I had in mind was: Suppose a corpora-
say that the only time in which you can reinvest earnings in a con-
tion - been losing money for 3 or 4 years, and then suddenly had
cern is during periods when earnings are being made, and that is
made good year and paid it all out to its stockholders and tried to
during prosperous periods. In other words, companies can continue
to use this method. In general they do it during prosperous periods.
made, have something to say about whether that proposal should be
would them to reinvest it, I should suppose the Securities Commission per-
In general they invest earnings during prosperous periods, because in
depression periods they would not have the earnings to invest.
Senator HASTINGS, Do you know whether the A. T. & T. have
lation HAAR, I do not think so, Senator, if they made misrepresen-
Mr. Senator KING. I do not think there is any question about that.
continued their regular dividends of $9 per share since 1930₹
Mr. Haas, I think they have.
that and laid all the facts on the table. I not no positivé about
Senator HASTINGS. Do you happen to know whether they took it
into the law,
The CHAIRMAN, Ii there is any question about it it can be written
out of earnings or out of surplus, or IL combination of the two?
Mr. HAAR. I do not know offhand.
Regraded Unclassified
as
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
35
Senstor BANKLEY. The report released by the A. T. & T.3 OF 1
Mr. Hass. When the earnings are left in the corporation, the
dare ago shows the earnings in 1935, I think, were the Targest since
stock reflects those earnings, because it means a gross investment
1930.
The CHAMMAN. Suppose in that connection we put in the record
which belongs to those particular stockholders. Now, if you pasa
the same earnings out to the stockholders in dividends, the market
Ure 1 report of the A. T. & T. so you can answer these questions
Cends to value those same earnings higher than if they were left in.
Mr. HAAR That is fine.
Senstor HASTINGS. The last report would not necessarily show it,
Now, through stock rights, if the stockholders just turn the earnings
back to the corporation again, my offhand opinion would be that
because that is the prosperous year of 1935.
the stock, or that the earnings, would tend to be valued higher than
Senator BARKLEY, I am glad to hear you admit that
Mr. HAAB. The Travelers' Insurance Co. of Hartford, Conn., by
if the earnings were left in the corporation.
In addition to that, the earnings per share of the corporation
successive offerings of rights to shareholders to subscribe to new
would increase by the decrease in taxation. In other words, a large
stock at par in 1908, 1910, 1913, 1916, 1920, 1928, 1025, 1926, 1028,
and 1920, multiplied its outstanding amount of capital stock 20 times,
corporation, or the average of all corporations, present corporation
taxes is about 16 percent, so you would have a 16-pereent rights in
from 1 to 20 millions.
Senator HASTINGS. Mr. Chairman, it seems to me that is an illus-
earnings per share.
Senator BAILEY. In your opinion, would the stockholders value
tention showing that it is unreasonable to exe apt. insurance com-
the stock more highly in the corporation which declared all of its
panice like that who have made that amount of money in the opera-
tion of their business.
surplus than they would the stock of n. corporation that had the
Mr. HAAR. It may be objected that the issue of such rights is open
surplus! Mr. HAAS. I would say the stock which paid out its current earn-
only to extremely large corporations or that the practice of issuing
them is infrequent. Neither of these objections is true. Using fig-
ings would be more valuable.
Senator BAILEY. How long would it pay out dividends after it
time compiled by the Commercial and Financial Chronicle, the
Bureau of Business Research of the University of Illinois estimated
dropped the surplus?
that more than 3,000,000,000 of capital was raised by corporations
Mr. HAAS. In this bill, Mr. Senator, if you use the word "surplus",
in 1920 through the offerings of securities to their stockholders.
we will have to confine it to this meaning: That it means current
In discussing such stock offerings Dewing, in his Financial Policy
earnings. Now, if a corporation pays out its current earnings and,
of Corporations, a standard work on this subject, says [reading]:
because of its fiscal policy, say, regardless of this bill at the present
time, it decides that each year, in order to grow and expand, it has
and ties,
They occurred almost as frequently In 1922 and 1923 as they did in 1928
an outlook for a profitable investment in capital of 10 percent, say,
The April 6, 1936, bulletin of the Standard Statistics Co. lists a
in a year.
Senator BAILEY. That might be true in the case of a corporation
now raising additional capital funds by the sale of securities to their
number of corporations, medium-sized ne well as large, that are
that had is fair value, but that is not true in the case of a corporation
that does not have a surplus, or has a very small surplus, Ie it your
stockholders. the These companies include the Union Bag & Paper Co.,
contention it would be good business for it to accumulate a surplus
lantic Foster-Wheeler Corporation, the Kalamazoo Stove Co., the At-
and fail to pay it out in dividends?
Refining Co., the Standard Tool Co., the Great Northern Rail-
Mr. Haas, I would say, whether or not it is it good fiscal policy
way Motor Co., the Ferro Enamel Corporation, and the Kinner Airplane &
of the corporation to accumulate a surplus or not, I think that would
inlo of Co. Other corporations that have raised capital the
hinge upon this question: By accumulating surplus it means you
several additional securities to their stockholders during through the
need more capital to reinvest in the business.
Edison months Electric include the Edward G. Budd Manufacturing past the
Senator BAILEY. I would not stop at that point. You may not need
Granite Illuminating Co. of Boston, the Glidden Co., the
more capital to reinvest, but your surplus is an asset to the corpora-
Co., and City the Holland Steel Co., Furnace the Ludlum Co. Steel Co., Spiegel May Co., Stern
tion; it enhances its credit, it relieves it of the necessity of going
to the bankers, it has its own money to operate. Is it your theory
process Senator have BARKLEY. Let me ask you, Mr. Haas, what
to cut off the surplus?
ration plows on the value of securities? For effect does this
Mr. HAAS. Mr. Senator, you are speaking of is surplus. Reinvested
outstanding its earnings back into plant, there instance, is if a corpo-
earnings means that it is 11. part of the stockholders' equity in a cor-
stockholders: stock, it just uses its money and retains no increase in the the
poration, capital stock representing part of it and surplus represent-
tional stock then if it pays it out in dividends it from
ing the other part. It is a liability, and you cannot spend that to
of what earnings, effect equivalent they increase to the their amount outstanding that would be and plowed issues extent; in addi- out
help you in any instance, you see.
Senator BAILEY. You mean to say you cannot lise the surplus in a
the point of view It has of the same effect as on a stock value of the stock?
Mr. Harr, would that have, if any, the stock to that
corporation? Mr. Haas. Whether you can use it or not depends on what it is
stock, it is on the other the side stockholder, of it. judging the dividend market value but of from the
invested in.
Senator BARKLEY, Yes,
36
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1930
37
Senator BARRY. Wait one minute, Lat DE talk plainly about it,
You can class it, and do life it, by spending it, The surplus does not
Senator BARKLET. The two things might office each other in deter-
remain in the corporation doing nothing.
mining the public price of a stock which was sold on the exchanges.
Mr. HAAS. I em what you are driving at, Mr. Senator, I will try
Senator KING. May 1 interrupt right there? Is it not a fact, Mr.
to make myself clear. À surplus accumulated out of earnings jua
Hans, that many persons prefer to join in a policy not to distribute
creams that earnings have been reinvested in the business-new empi-
the earnings but to plow them back into the business in order to have
tal has going into business. The surplus itself is a liability. It be-
it expand, and they regard the increase in value of the stock as more
longs to whoever owns the assets, Now, if the surplus, which is
important than the dividend?
$100,000, say, is invested in a steel plant, it is of some aid to the
Mr. HAAS. There is a group of people that is highly interested in
business, it has certain significance to the business. However, if it is
that now, because by doing that now, if your income is large enough
put into Government bonds, if there is a sort of an investment pool,
to get in the high-income bracket, it may be up in the 75-percent
then you have a liquid fund which you can call on, but just the mere
bracket to them, they have ni great interest in putting it. back or saving
fart that you have a surplus indicated on your balance sheet does
it, as you might say, because for each dollar they put in they save
not indicate, without looking over to see what the condition of your
paying the Government 75 cents.
assets is, you cannot tell whether or not one corporation is in a better
Senator BARKLEY. Is not that true largely among corporations
shape to weather the depression in an emergency than another, I
where the stock is owned by a very few people and where they are
mean, take two corporations, one that each year, instead of leaving
indifferent to dividends, where they have got plenty of money on the
it in surplus wrote it up into capital and they carried a fiscal policy
outside and they do not have to depend on the dividends of that
where they kept a large proportion of their assets in a liquid con-
particular stock for a living?
dition, and another corporation let the account stand, and suppose
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
they were optimistic about business and said, "We will put it into
Senator BARKLEY. That does not apply to the great mass of stock-
the plant. We will make 25 percent by putting it into the plant
holders, however,
plant and they had a big surplus, but the assets representing that
instead of putting it into Government bonds", and they put it into
Mr. Haas. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Haas, in that connection, supposing you have
surplus were in the condition in which they were nonliquid and it
a closely owned corporation that has piled up enormous surpluses, like
was no help to them.
the Aluminum Corporation, or like others that I might call, a stock-
Senator BAILET. You say "nonliquid" if it was an investment in
holder is not particularly anxious to get the dividend because it would
enhance machinery, for instance. To go back to my question, would that
go into the higher prices-in that case is 42.5 percent as B. maximum
Mr. the value of the stock in the hands of a stockholder
rate high enough to penalize those people or to force distribution of
to HAAS, be To an expert analyst, no, To the general public or there not!
dividends! For instance, they might have to pay 75 percent if they
expert looks analyst I would say "no." He does as I attempted to do, be an
Poems some magic about the surplus on the other side. To
owned a great bulk of the stock, and they would pay 49.5 percent by
leaving it in there ns a. surplus. Would not they, as a choice between
Senator cash Barrley. As a matter of fact, surplus does not always
over to see what happened to this surplus.
the two propositions, leave it in the corporation and pay 42.5 percent
rather than distribute?
mean in bank?
Mr. HAAS. That question, Mr. Senator, was discussed in the Ways
Mr. Hass. No.
and Means Committee somewhat along those lines. There is A pro-
Senator in stocks BARKLET. And as a matter of fact most people who invest
vision in the bill in regard to that, Mr. Kent could probably discuss
money Mr. HAAR That do is it for right. the purpose of getting a return in cash.
that provision.
Mr. KENT. Section 102.
the after a while, always lose interest and the in stockholders the got no dividend, earnings they back might, into
Senator business BARKLEY. If a corporation plowed its
Mr. Haas. Mr. Kent, would you mind discussing-that?
Senator BATLEY. As I get. your view now, the stockholder's sense of
value of his stock, upon the accumulation of the surplus by a cor-
held never within pay out 11 few hands, like some stock companies unless the that stock was very closely
poration, is based upon magic and not upon reality It is not
plow it back into any dividends, because for different reasons we know of which
reality; it is magic?
back IN into business over and a long period of years plowed as a surplus all of anyway, its but
if corporation the business or set it aside they either
Mr. HAAS. That is just a part of the stockholder's equity expressed
in another account.
difficulty paid out no dividends have earnings a little
Senator BAILEY. The stockholder's equity is not magic?
Mr. HAAR selling That that is stock right. to the public-is that it not might right?
Mr. HAAS. No.
Senator BAILEY. The equity is a reality, is it not?
Senator BARKLEY. the of a surplus is no doubt a
Mr. HAAB. Yes.
a it does to not get appeal a return to the only-isn't average
Senator GEORGE. Mr. Налк, let me ask you one question. You give
no significance at all to the surplus shown in the bank statement?
Mr. HAM That is right,
Senator BAILEY. That is the magic.
count, what is your equity in the concern? You look at the capital
Mr. Hasb. Suppose you are a stockholder and you look at an nc-
38
BEVENUE ACT, 1956
REVENUE ACT, 1936
39
account and the surplus account, the two of them together; suppose
which would give the Government the must money, under the new
the tank just increased their capitalization the day before yesterday
That is the point I am trying to make.
plan or under the old plan.
I am not expecting you to answer that right off, because that is a
Senator BAILEY. How do you increase capitalization?
more or less complicated question. I think it would be very helpful
Mr. HAME By declaring stock dividends to the stockholders.
Senator BAILEY By issuing stockholders' certificates equal to the
if you could take some such illustration ns that and see just where
we would land. Of course, I assume you would have to take into
surplits!
account the question whether the Gathers of that corporation were in
Mr. Hass, Yes,
the higher bracket or the lower bracket, which would, I suppose, make
Senator HXILEY. But that would be magie,
a difficult problem.
Mr. HAAS, No: I should say the situation stayed just the same.
Mr. HAAS. Yes. I could put an illustration in the record along the
Some people, laymen, might think, "Well, it would be better to have
lines that you have suggested. You have to make some assurpptions
I surplus in there."
with regard to stockholders.
Senator CONNALLY. Mr. Hans, let me nsk you a question. You dif-
Senator HASTINGS. I suppose that is true.
ferentiated a while ago between the value of the stock on the market,
Mr. HAAS. You would have to make some assumption ne to the
between those that paid a cash dividend out of current revenues and
the that accumulated it. Now, is not this the reason for that
period in which this took place. Shall we say 10 years previous to
People buying stock, if they get a little cash dividend out of the cur-
this date?
Senator HASTINGS. I am assuming a period of 10 years when the
rent revenue if they get that right now, that, to their mind, is
worth a little more than an expectancy of a dividend which is not
profits were just the same, 10 percent on the investment during the
distributed, which may be dissipated, may be lost, they might make
whole 10 years, the first 5 years 10 percent on 2 million and the next
a bud investment and lose n. lot of it, if he gets it right now it gives
5 years 10 percent on the increase, which would be a million, less the
him an enhanced value of the certificate; is that not true?
taxes that had been paid.
Mr. HAAR. That is right.
The CHAIRMAN. And following that question will you put in the
Senator CONNALLY. Is not that the differentiation!
record several examples!
Mr. HAAR. That is the main differentiation.
Mr. Haas. All right.
The CHAIRMAN. Are there any other questions?
Senator HASTINGS, Mr. Hans, I would like to know whether or not
Senator BARKLEY. In that connection, while you are off your manu-
you made any estimate along the line of an illustration that I want
to and make. Take a $2,000,000 corporation over a period of 10
script, somebody has scattered a good deal of misinformation: a good
deal of misinformation has been broadeast about this bill. I am get-
none suppose of it earned 10 percent of $200,000 for 5 but years, paid
it out to its stockholders, it would then have years, accumulated
ting a lot of letters complaining because it taxes existing surpluses
$1,000,000, and it paid to the Government each year $32,000 in
that have been created over the past. Of course, it does not, and I do
not know who started that story; but I would like it to be put into the
business now, suppose at the end of 5 years it increases its plant, whatever taxes; its
record, and for the press to carry, that this bill does not touch at all
have is, by using all of the million-dollar surplus, it will then
Mr. $3,000,000 espital investment; isn't that true?
existing surpluses that have been created in the past.
HAAR. it? What did they do with the surplus over the 5 years that
Mr. Haas. That is right. The bill concerns itself only with cur-
they earned
rent earnings.
Senator HARTINGS. They just kept it,
Senator LA FOLLETTE. On the other hand, Senator, some people are
Senator HASTINOS, Yes,
Mr. HAAR. Just kept it in cash?
eriticizing the bill because they contend it is going to give a eom-
petitive advantage to corporations that have accumulated surpluses,
buy
Mr. plant? HAAR. You mean in liquid security that they could turn in to
Senator BARKLEY. Well, that may be.
Senator GEORGE. Mr. Hans, may I say for myself it would be far
Suppose Senator HASTINGS. Yes, My figures
more helpful if you concede, as I think you must concede, in the light
ing new material, at the end giving of 5 years labor it spent the may million not dollars be exactly by purchas- correct.
of all the business experience, that reasonable surpluses and a reason-
able accumulation of surpluses was necessary, and this bill does not
creased 10 percent, the so value its of its plant by to $3,000,000, a lot of people, and it. or what not; it in-
make impossible the accumulation of reasonable surpluses to take
$300,000; its taxes earnings under have been increased, then, continues from to earn to
care of the ordinary affairs of the corporate organization.
Mr. HAAS. I agree with you perfectly, but what I was trying to
$18,000 Mr. to $48,000, an increase the of present $16,000. rate will then increase $200,000 from
explain there is the different concepts of this term "surplus."
Senator HAAS, Yes,
Senator GEORGE. Oh, yes.
HASTINGK.
Mr. Haas. Now, Senator, I agree with you perfectly, because I
years, estae dividend the and first the 5 during next I was 5 when which wondering time they whether, were over IL period of this 10
know you are talking about the accumulation of assets-or call it
surplus, if you will-which are in such shape that you can utilize
rate, I was wondering, from they the were Government's making accumulating dividends point of at view, the
them if a contingency arises: but those assets may be expressed just
as well in the enpital account or separate account, I mean the capital-
Regraded
40
REVENUE ACT, 1930
REVENUE ACT, 1000
41
stock account. Surplax in a capital account. D. is just is technical
matter which I was trying to explain.
et work. They made no money. They exhausted all of their no
Menator (honge. It might be expressed in different ways, but, as IL
serves; and then, because their credit had been good, they borrowed
matter of practical business experience, it is a far different thing to
$500,000 more: and they saved the city, saved the town, saved hun-
actually have A surplus and ruly upon your ability to induce stock.
dreds of families. Other corporations that did not have those M
holders to buy back, to exercise their rights, from going into the
serves had to close down. You would not want to adopt a policy
market and selling your own securities.
that would preciude the cushion or the establishment of a reserve to
Mr. HAAS It shows, Mr. Senator, if the account in kept intact, if
meet eontingencies of that kind, would you!
Mr. HAAS. No: the point I was making is that under this bill 5.
DTVP a period this company has grown out of earnings, that that has
something to do with the credit, because it is in the balan. sheet,
and create a surplus account if it wants to do that. My other dis-
corporation would have every facility to reinvest in their business
Senator GRORGE Undoubtedly it. has something to do with the
credit. You do not need to argue that fact. I know the surplus is
cussion no to the relationship between capital and surplus accounts
not necessary. If this bill does not make the accumulation of IL
is to show there is no difference between them.
reasonable surplus possible without an undue burden, we think it
Senator KING. la it not R wrong assumption that reserves are kept
would be far better to forego it, but I hope that this program may
by many corporations only for the purpose of evading taxes? Ie it
eliminate in 11. large measure the accumulation of an unreasonable
not a fact that they keep those reserves in order to meet contingencies
amount of surplus. It just seems to me you ought to start with the
and to take care of lubor and to avoid an economic collapse in their
premise and make a case on the theory that this does permit a
respective communities? I know that is true with respect to mining
reasonable surplus.
companies and others that have many reverses.
Senator LA FOLLETTE. As a matter of fact, as I understand it, if &
Mr. HAAS, I am coming to that.
corporation accumulates 30 percent, on which some testimony was
Senator BARKLEY. Let ns take the case of B. corporation that makes
given in executive session to the effect that that was a normal, aver-
net earnings of $100,000 a year, and it decides to distribute half of
age tax amount of accumulation over a 10-year period, they will pay less
it; and that decision is wholly within the province of that corpora-
on that than they now pay under the existing law.
tion; now, if it keeps half of it in its treasury, then it pays the tax
The CHAIRMAN. That is for corporations over $10,000, and for
under this bill in whatever bracket it falls; that tax is paid; and
corporations under $10,000 it was 40 percent.
then the corporation could take the balance of $50,000 that it kept
Mr. Hass, That is right.
after paying the tax and put it all in surplus; isn't that true?
The the CHAIRMAN. Anyway, that is a criticism that was first hurled
Mr. Haas. That is right. It could do it that way, and it could go
at to be suggestion by the so-called business people, that there ought
out in the market and get new funds and put it in surplus.
cushion. IL cushion, and the House has answered that by présenting a
Senator BARKLEY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HAAR. That in right.
What they want is reasonable cushion,
Senator HASTINGS. Will you not follow that little further and find
out just what would be left!
Senator KING, Do you have that in this bill?
Senator BARKLEY. It would be necessary to make a calculation on
Mr. Harr. Yes; to increase the size of business
the bracket in which that $50,000 would come, which, I think, is set
Theans Ings to reinvest your earnings, and in order to reinvest under this bill
out in the table in the bill itself.
relation you between put it in surplus, The reason I discuss your earn-
Senator CONNALLY. Mr. Haas, let me nsk you a question. In
realize that capital and surplus is this-that as much as I do the
answering Senator George you said you agreed with him: and I do,
ining it. further. many people look at the surplus account many corporations
too, that it is desirable that corporations accumulate reasonable
The assets. I say it has little significance unless without exam-
it is born with They a surplus, often start a new corporation out with you a surplus; examine
surpluses. Mr. HAAS, Reserves, I think Senator George means. We would be
using the same terminology.
may
Senator arise? KING, Is not that to take care of some contingency that
Senator CONNALLY. Reserves!
Mr. Haas. Yes.
Mr. Senator HAAS, KIXG. Some State laws make it almost
Senator CONNALLY. In other words, B fund over and above the
more Mr. HAAR That than is others. right, You cannot standardize encounter business. lean
frequently You know some businesses imperative to do years that.
capital account, the ordinary capitalization, for any need that might
arise.
Mr. HAAS. Yes.
It Senator was wisely KING, managed. I have in It mind a mining corporation in State.
Senator CONNALLY, On the other hand, is it not economically un-
sound and undesirable, from a social point of view, to have them
have have in one a section reserve gave they out could and anticipated they had to lean explore. years. If The they ore my did deposit not
retain all their surplus, to have the corporation just pile it up and
not distribute its dividends and bringing more and more assets within
the núne had they to had throw reserves their of men not out have of employment. gone to work, In and this they particular would
the control of R. single entity; is not that harmful to the general wel-
fare, and is not that economically imsound from a broad, liberal
depression came, instead several of discharging hundred thousand their men dollars. they kept When them
standpoint!
05452-pt. 2-26-3
42
REVENUE ACT, 1930
REVENUE ACT, 1030
43
Mr. Here I think it is: and 1 will make a statement to that effect
Senator Bailer. That is your theory right there, is it not, that
later OIL
the corporation will undertake to expand through the sale of secur-
Senator CONNALLY. How is that?
ities to the stockholders rather than buying new property)
Mr. Has I agree with you, Senator, that it is economically
Mr. HAAR. I would any it can do that if it wishes. It can plow
sound. The CHAIRMAN. All right, proceed then, Mr. Hans.
back earnings in small corporations to the extent of 40 percent of
its annual earnings and pay a little less tax than it pays now.
Mr. Hase, In addition to the funds which may thus be raised
Senator BAILEY, You do not say here that it can do it; you any it
by all profitable corporations, large and small, through the offering
would have the same opportunity that it enjoys now. The difficulty
of new stock to their stockholders, large corporations, in particular,
is finding a purchaser for the stock.
will continue to possess, as they always have, nocess to the organized
Mr. Haas, That is right.
capital markets for the direct flotation of securities to persons other
Senator BAILEY, The other is getting profits out of your annual
than their existing security holders, and so will be able to raise such
income, your operations. Now, which is easier when you come to
additional funds as they may need through the offering of stocks
expand?
and bonds for public subscription.
Mr. HAAB, Well, if you wanted to hold 100 percent of your earn-
Nevertheless, there are some, who argue as if capital funds ob-
ings, I do not think there is any question, if you wanted to hold back
tained by direct reinvestment of earnings, and therefore credited to
all your earnings. It is just a question of a bookkeeping entry, even
an account called surplus, have n. special magio about them that
if you issue rights for a large corporation that has necess to the
makes them more valuable to a corporation than capital funds ob-
capital markets. There is a little more labor in that.
tained through other means. Thus it is contended that corporations
Senator BAILET. The problem is one of expanding the operations
with large accumulated surpluses will be in a stronger competitive
of a corporation. You suggest the way to do that is to go out on
position than corporations with smaller or no surpluses. This con-
the market and sell stock at whatever price you can get for the stock,
tention does not stand examination. As the members of this com-
you suggest that that is II feasible plan?
mittee are well aware, the item of surplus occurs on the liability side
Mr. Haas. That is a feasible plan.
of a corporation's balance sheet and does not necessarily represent
Senator BAILEY. Whereas, under the present system, the general
cash or marketable securities or inventories or any other type of
practice is, after you get your corporation going, to plow back a
liquid asset. In many cases a corporation is born with a surplus as
certain proportion of your profit. You explained it in that way.
a result of the expedient of undervaluing its capital stock on its books
That is not any better way than the way of going out in the market
and calling the rest of its paid-in capital "surplus." In other cases
and selling capital stock?
the surplus in the result of giving a large and sometimes fictitious
Mr. Haas. That is not the way in which I put it.
value to such intangible assets as goodwill or patent rights,
Senator BAILEY. Well, read that paragraph then and see if it is not.
Senator BARKLEY. It says "in other cases." You do not mean "in
Senator BARKLEY. What you say is they have the same opportunity
other words"?
to do either under this bill that they have now,
Mr. HAAS, "In other cases"; yes, In other cases the surplus is the
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
result of giving a large and sometimes fictitious value to such in-
Senator BARKLEY. The only difference being that the amount
langible assets as goodwill or patent rights. In no case, in my
plowed back might be affected by the amount of tax they pay,
opinion, CARE it be stated that a corporation with an accumulated
depending on the amount they refuse to distribute to their stock-
book surplus in in a better competitive position than another corpo-
holders.
ration with equal assets and similar liabilities and equally good
Mr. HAAS. It does not prohibit them from increasing in size.
management that has no book surplus. I am using "surplus" there
These avenues are open to them.
side of the balance sheet.
not in the of meaning a reserve. It is a liability on the other
Senator BAILEY. That depends altogether on whether you could
sell the stock or not. It is rather difficult now to sell the stock.
checked the opportunity of a reasonable profit to capital is more likely to be
It would thus appear that no corporation, large or small, offering
Mr. HAAS. Well, without discussing that, I would like to give
several illustrations of companies which are actually now, at this
than under in its legitimate desire for expansion under the proposed
Them the present system of corporation taxation.
moment, issuing stock rights.
Senator BAILEY. Well, stock rights are an entirely different thing
ductuating industries, industries than they do to corporations engaged
considerations apply no less to corporations in
from the selling of stock.
Mr. HAAS. Yes; in stock rights; there is some coercion in that.
issue A corporation in an unstable industry engaged will have in stable the
Senator BAILEY. This is a matter of selling stock. Take your
during opportunity periods that it enjoys now of accumulating funds
present situation. As n. matter of fact, very little stock by way of
stockholders of prosperity. through the sale of capital
addition to the present stock of the corporation is being sold at
m lit as a buffer and others, and of using these funds in securities such ways to as its it
the present time. Is there any activity in the sale of stock for new
against periods of depression.
corporations?
44
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1986
45
Mr. Hass L not this what you are saying as to that activity.
Mr. Senator, that you give back the earnings to the stockholders
Mr. Haar That is right. Thank you, Mr. Senator: I do not take
that own the corporation! I mean they are the ones who are the
any position as to the fiscal policy of the corporation, as to how much
owners, and you ask them, "Will you put it. back in the company
they should distribute, or anything like that All I nm anying in that
They my, "No." Then is not that the answer? They own the com-
this bill, if it is put into law, gives them 18. certain choice. What are
pany, If on the other hand the management of the company said,
its collateral effectal Does it give them something that is desirable or
"We are going to hold it whether you like it or not", that is MA. differ-
does it give them something that is undesirable?
Senator BAILEY. Is it not your suggestion that insofar as its ca-
ent proposition.
Senator BAILEY. If that is the answer, then your whole theory
pacity to accumulate surpluses may be impaired by this legislation,
falls down, because your theory is the corporation owns the carn-
that it get new investments by selling new stock; is not that your
imgo and it is not declaring them to the stockholders in dividends,
argument? Mr. Haas. My argument is that n small corporation under the bill,
but if the stockholders own and control the corporation, then to
be sure they would get that interest. I do not think you can predi-
if they want to plow back that capital, to use that method, the small
cate your conclusion upon that premise. You have got to either
corporation can plow back 40 percent and pay somewhat less than
argne one way or the other.
they pay now, and a large corporation, if it wants to use that method
to increase its investment in business, can plow back 30 percent. It
Mr. Hars. I am using both arguments on the same subject.
also has the other channels open to secure new capital for its business.
Senstor BAILEY. You use one premise and you reach a conclusion
In one that you can do that and in another case that you cannot
The fact that a company is growing rapidly and increasing its surplus
do that.
does not always give it this reserve that you are talking about. Dur-
Mr. HAAR, The matter of fact is I did not come up here to argue,
ing the depression we found many companies that grew like a. mush-
it was not my intention to argue. I am trying to present some
room, that had nothing in the reserve account, but that might have
economic facts and state my opinion on them in order to make it clear
had a surplus account. Their assets were not in a liquid form.
to the committee,
Senator BAILEY. Of course, that is very elementary. Surpluses are
Senator BAILEY. I am not arguing with you, but yon make some
not always cash.
very flat statements here for this record, and I wanted to test you Off
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
the validity and soundness of your statements. I am not engaging in
Senator BAILET. I am not disputing that. Some of them are cash
and some of them are other sources of credit.
any argument. It just occurred to me that that statement is not cor-
root. You make the statement [reading]:
Mr. HASS. That is right.
Senator BAILEY. And credit is cash.
enjoye the - name wf sccumulating enpital funds during periods of prosperity, through
A ourporation in an unstable Industry will have the same opportunity that It
Senator HASTINGS. That statement you just made about them be-
state of securities to Its stockholders and others, and of using these funds In
ing able to obtain 30 percent, and so forth, as a surplus, I find that
ways as It - flt as a buffer against perfods of depression.
to be correct, but this is trne, is it not, that in order for n. corporation
Your prodicate the whole principle on the capacity of the
that has earnings of a million dollars and wants to retain 30 percent
tion from to its sell stock rather than the capacity to save a certain corpora- amount
of it, or $300,000 of it, has to pay 50 percent of the amount it re-
tions in earnings as a buffer. Now, I am telling you that the
tained, or $150,000? So that while your statement on that 30 percent
since 1930, this country have not been in a position to sell any new corpora- stock
is correct, the truth is that they pay 50 percent of what they retain
in the case of earnings of a million dollars?
either, could stock, and many of them could not plow back earnings,
Mr. not HAAS, sell That is right, and most of them during the depression
Mr. HAAS. That is true, but that is the same situation now. If
you want to change your taxation base you get 11. different percent.
You have the same proposition now under the existing income-tax
Senator had BAILEY. What would have happened to them if
law, you get a figure about the same as you quoted me.
not Commerce big surpluses to distribute? I understand the they had of
Senator HASTINOR. I am only making the statement for the pur-
and above stated that they distributed $27,000,000,000 Department
pose of clarifying the record.
those surpluses! their earnings, What would happen if they since did 1930 not have over
Mr. HAAS. Yes.
Senator HASTINGS. The general statement that you can retain 30
the has Mr. been Department HAAR. made Senator, of Commerce I challenge figures, that but statement. I I do not challenge
percent and only pay 15-percent tax is correct.
Mr. HAAS. Yes.
my statement. of the figures. I am coming challenge that the use which in
Senator HASTINOS. I want the record to show that you actually
We are making a. I change do not in mean the they law. cannot do to the same a little thing later because on
pay 50 percent on the amount that you retain.
Senator LA FOLLETTE. On the other hand, it can be stated in an-
been Senator read here BARELEY. that corporations You are not advocating I say they in have the sentence the opportunity. that has
other way, that you reduce the amount of dividend by the tax, not
the amount of surplus that is retained.
they obtain can additional do that if funds they want by the to, sale pay of out rights all their of stock; dividends all you and say then is
Senator CONNALLY. In other words, you keep $300,000, then you
pay $150,000, and the other $550,000 would go into dividends. You
46
REVENUE ACTE, 1930
REVENUE ACT, 1938
47
simply reduce the amount distributed in dividends by the 9.000mt
Senator BAILEY (interrupting). You do not intend to do anything
of tax You would still have the $300,000 in the surplus.
on that- Now, if you do not do anything in regard to that, how
Mr. HAAR That is right.
would you raise $610,000,0001
Senator CONNALLY. You would still retain the $300,000 surplus,
Mr. HAAR. No: I do not think you understand no, Senator.
you would pay the tax out of the remainder, and the balance would
Senator BAILEY. Of course that is the purpose. We have had
go to the dividends; is that correct?
charts exhibited to us showing exactly how that works under each
Me. HASS That is correct, and even under the present law you
bracket.
could take the 16 percent on the amount you would retain and you
Mr. HAAS. Yes; I had something to do with the construction of
would get a higher figure too.
that chart.
Senator HASTINGS. That stockholder is entitled to get that in
Senator BAILEY. They will not have any large proportion of their
order for the company to maintain what has been described as a
earnings to invest; they will pay them to the Government in taxes.
normal surplus. Of whatever is retained the Government is taking
Senator CONNALLY. Mr. Hass, in connection with that let me ask
half of it. I say the stockholders are entitled to get it.
you a question. Is it not true that under the present tax law there
Mr. HAAR I do not think that is true.
is a premium or inducement for corporations to hold the surpluses
Senator LA FOLLETTE. I do not think that is 26. statement of fact.
and thereby pay a lesser rate of tax ultimately than they would if it
before. The CHAIRMAX, The Government is taking no more than it took
was distributed, and is not the theory of this bill to say to the corpo-
ration, "Now, we do not care whether you keep it in surplus or not,
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
that is up to you, but if you keep it in surplus, or if you pay it out,
The CHAIRMAN, All right, Mr. Hans, you may proceed.
the Government will tax it at the same relative rate"?
Mr. HAAR. It is argued by some that stockholders may be reluctant
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
or even unwilling to reinvest in any given enterprise any large frac-
Senator CONNALLY. Leaving it entirely optional with the corpora-
tion of the earnings distributed to them in dividends, But this argu-
tion, because, after all, it belongs to the stockholders: they could put
ment assimes that corporate managements may justly reinvest earn-
it in the right-hand pocket or the left-hand pocket, but we will not
ings in a particular enterprise against the desire of the stockholders.
permit them to do the Houdini net and switch it from one pocket to
In the last analysis, however, the earnings of a corporation belong
the other and therefore getting a reduced rate of taxation and the
to its stockholders; and stockholders are entitled to exercise a choice,
which, under the present corporate practices they do not always
Government losing that amount of money. The present tax structure
gives a preference to the corporation over the individual engaged in
as possess, with respect to the disposition of these earnings. Insofar
the same business.
managements to obtain the consent of their stockholders for capital
one effect of the proposed change will be to encourage corporate
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
Senator CONNALLY. Because the individual may pay a 50-percent
expansion, and to give to stockholders, the real owners of the
surtax and the corporation in the same line of business will pay 15
effect poration, is altogether N. greater control desirable. over the disposition of their earnings, cor- this
percent. Mr. HAAS. That is right. Also that the man with the small income
H relevent is argued in by some that stockbolders may be
Senator BAILEY. Let life stop you there. You say [reading]:
is being penalized if he is entering into a corporate business, because
he pays 16 percent tax, whereas under the individual income tax he
to to them In dividends. any given enterprise any large fraction reluctant of the earnings or even distributed unwilling
may pay no tax, or some tax less than 16 percent.
Senator BAILEY. Have you seen the chart showing what portion
hands The of theory of this bill is that we squeeze dividends
would go to small incomes and what portion would go to larger
brackets of the stockholders in order that they may fall into out the into higher the
incomes?
the income tax.
Mr. bill Haas, That is not the theory, Mr. Senator. of
Mr. HAAS. My staff developed those charts.
this the corporate is that there is certain income which comes via The or theory
Senator BAILEY. You are perfectly familiar with the charts?
Mr. HAAS. Yes.
the name rate of form of doing business which is not through to
Senator BARKLEY. It is not the concern of this bill to squeeze money
keeps it partnership, in the and We now set rates up that if individual basi-
lieu or taxation as income that flows from now subjected
out of the corporation treasury into the hands of stockholders, but it.
is the purpose of this bill that, whether it is squeezed or not, it shull
it. Senator We are not corporation telling them WE what get to the do same rate as if they a corporation distributed
pay a tax?
template BAILEY. But you are telling about it,
Mr. Haas. That is right.
Senator BARKLET. And if somebody who has not been getting a
having them raising the tax on incomes to me holders now that you do not con-
high rate of dividend gets a larger dividend because of the preference
higher Mr. HAAS, brackets! No; report I That would those is incomes say not at all in in their contemplation? returns of and shares tax of them stock, in
of the corporation to pay it out rather than pay a tax on it, to in-
crease that dividend lifts that man up into the higher tax bracket and
he will pay more tax. Nobody disputes that, nobody is trying to con-
ceal that.
48
REVENUE AUT, 1926
REVENUE ACT, 1980
49
Senator La FOLLETTE As I understand it, the proparation of there
charte was bûild on 100 percent distribution of dividends, and is
vestor, while the larger investor might excape the 50-percent tax
simply throws one aspect on the situation, namely, where the increase
which other unforturate citizens would pay who did not happen to
would fall in case 100 percent distribution took place. That data
be interested in that corporation by owning a large block of stock!
has been prepared for the consideration of this committee and it is
Mr. HAAR. That is right.
not to be ned as a predicate for the statement that the objective of
Senator CONNALLY. Let IDO ask you this in regard to your talk
the bill is to force 100 percent distribution.
about the big stockholders wanting to hold it in the corporation and
Mr. Hass That is right, Mr. Senator.
the little fellows elamoring for dividends under the present system,
The CHAIRMAN. All right, Mr. Hans, you may proceed.
is it not true under this bill that the corporation would have the
Senator BAILEY. That is one point. When it gets into n certain
greatest liberty, and the stockholders lilcowise, because when the
bracket, I will not undertake to say which one, 50 percent of that
matter of arriving at how much they would retain as a surplus came
would go for taxes, 50 percent of the income to the stockholders.
up no consideration would actuate them except the absolute business
Senator CONNAILY. Of that which is retained.
necessity of the corporation, because there would be no reason to
Senator BAILEY. Fifty percent will be paid in taxes under certain
hold it, the tax would be the same, and therefore the only reason they
brackets.
would enter into the decision ns to how much they would retain Bel a
Mr. HAM. If you repeat any percentage you might wish, I will
surplus would be the absolutely economic needs of that corporation!
have one of the people with me give you the corresponding nne.
Senator BAILEY. Now, that being true, 50 percent of it certainly
Senator CONNALLY. They will keep just as much as they need.
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
world not be available to reinvest, because it goes to the Government.
They will distribute all that they do not need. Isn't that the real
Mr. HAAR. I see what your point is, that if the dividends go out
test as to the accumulation of any surplus?
and are paid to people and the Government takes out a larger propor-
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
tion of that, to the extent that the Government takes it out or gets
Senator KrNo. I assume, Mr. Hans, that the purpose of this bill
more revenue, to that extent there will be less money by those
is to increase taxes which are to come from corporations or from
individuals to reinvest in the business.
stockholders of corporations.
Senator BAILEY. It would not be a question of the stockholders be-
Mr. HAAS. The purpose of the bill, to be absolutely correct, is to
ingr reluctant, it would be a question of the stockholders not having
increase revenue, and the revenue is coming either from corporations
taxes. the power to reinvest the money because the money has gone into
or through stockholders of corporations, because the present tax law
allows ft. tax avoidance, if it is assumed that all income should be
Mr. HAAS, That is right.
taxed equally as represented by the income-tax law.
Senator BLACK. Mr. Hans, that is also true if an individual made
Senator KING. I am not arguing that. I say this bill is for the
profit and he came in the 50-percent bracket.
purpose of increasing the revenue of the Government, and it is sup-
Mr. HAAS, That is true.
posed to get that money from corporations and from stockholders of
that understood it to be the main purpose of this bill to require the
Senator BLACK. In reality, as I understand what you said, you
corporations.
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
made owned a large proportion of stock in corporations, where group they
Senator KING. So it will impose an additional burden, whether
tion. not favored by owning that large block of stock in the corpora-
were a profit in in certain year, to pay a tax the same as though they
rightfully or wrongfully I am not concerned with at the moment,
upon corporations and stockholders.
Mr. HAAS. Now, the corporation may pay no tax at all. It means
Mr. HAAS. That is right.
the stockholders of the corporation will be taxed more, some will be
happens tion, he to be fortunate enough to make huge in if n man
Senator BLACK. If I understand it, it is your theory that
taxed more and some will be taxed less.
Senator KiNG. At any rate, the aggregate taxes collected will be
individual should have taxes imposed upon him the profits n. corpora-
approximately $600,000,000.
block of stock? who might not be fortunate enough to same own as that any other large
Mr. Haas. Yes; more than they were before.
Senator KING, And you will take that amount from stockholders,
token, the result. have more money to invest n in the particular by business the same as
Mr. would HAAR. Yes; and the ones with small income,
or corporations, OF both.
comes about in this way-that somebody will be taxed more and
Mr. HAAS. That is correct; that is the aggregate addition, and it
group, Ha, and as sometimes we it is exercised in every large exercised by a
Senator BLACK. know Because by the control being small
somebody will be taxed less.
The CHAIRMAN. All right; proceed, Mr. Hans,
that holders' controls rights, the under large only that number system three men that might has been pass operating, corporation on 100,000 that in Amer- stock- group
Mr. HAAS. I turn now to is third objection that has received con-
siderable publicity,
Senator WALSH. Mr. Chairman, I note the third objection merely
and pay a 15-percent tax even of on stockholders the profit can of the withhold very small the stock in-
individuals with large incomes into buying tax-exempt securities.
deals with the claim made that this bill, if enacted into law, will drive
Regraded
30
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
51
That in not A major feature of this bill, and I suggest it be put into
such D generous salaries and immediate economic power, that they
the record and the witness turn to part IV to SAYA time,
would hesitate to surrifice. It is likewise clear that any sudden and
The CHAIRMAN. I think that is a good suggestion. If there are
great enlargement of the demand for tax-exempt securities would go
any questions to be asked about that, we can call on him to answer
far to drive up their prices and drive down their vields to a point
those questions.
that would counterbalance all or most of the tax advantage of such
Senator Watsh. I suggest having that printed in the record and
securities
have the witness go to part IV, which is more important.
Although the real merits of this objection hardly justify more
Senstor LONEMOAN. If the witness is in 11. position to spenk for the
than the remarks that I have just made, I propose, nevertheless, to
Treasury Department, I would like to ask him a question on that
go into the matter a little more fully because of the great amount
subject.
of misconception that exists respecting the possibilities of greatly
Mr. HAAS. What is the question?
increasing this avenue of tax avoidance.
Senator LONERGAN. What is the attitude of the Treasury Depart-
In the first place, refuge from income taxation by means of tax-
ment OR the discontinuance of the tax-exempt securities?
exempt securities is very definitely limited by the amount of tax-
Mr. HAAR. The Secretary made a. statement to several committees
exempt securities available and by the rates of interest that they pay.
in Congress on that, and he has made recommendations against the
The largest source of tax-exempt-security income is that derived from
continuance of it. I would be glad to put his statement in the record
the obligations of States, counties, cities, and so forth. The net
with regard to that.
aggregate amount of such tax-exempt securities has not changed ma-
Senator LONERGAN. I would like to know, because I prepared and
terially during the past 5 years. On June 30, 1931, the net principal
filed with the Senate on January 16, 1934, IL report on this question
amount outstanding, as estimated in the 1935 annual report of the
of tax-exempt securities, and nothing has been done about it. My
Secretary of the Treasury, was approximately $17,500,000,000, and
understanding has been that the Treasury Department desired that
on June 30, 1935, approximately $16,900,000,000. In other words,
no action be taken on that on account of the issues that we authorized
between these two dates a decrease has actually taken place in the
from time to time.
net principal amount of tax-exempt State, county, and municipal
Mr. HAAR The Secretary has given his statement to Congress on
obligations, Further, it does not appear that the volume of tax-
that, I would be glad to put it in the record.
exempt securities will be increased in the near future at a rate any-
Senator LONERGAN. I wish you would.
thing like the rate of increase during the twenties.
Senator KING. Senator, do you refer to securities issued by State
The Federal Government is not now issuing any long-term obliga-
and other political subdivisions or only the Federal securities!
tions exempt from surtaxes. In fact, during the present adminis-
Senator LONERGAN. The Federal securities,
tration the 31/4-percent first Liberty Loan bonds and certain pre-
Mr. Hass, I turn now to a third objection that has received con-
war-bond issues the interest on which was exempt from surtaxes have
siderable publicity. It is contended by some that if the proposed
been refunded in part by bonds lacking the surtax-exemption privi-
bill should result in " much larger distribution of corporate earn-
ings, it will simply drive individuals of large incomes into tax-
lege. The only fully tax-exempt obligation that the Federal Gov-
ernment is issuing to the public at the present time are short-term
exempt securities in order that they might avoid the individual
bills and notes.
income surtaxes on their additional dividends; and hence it is con-
The tax-exempt income made available by these issues, however, is
tended that the Government will not get the revenue that the Treas-
for less than their principal amount would suggest. The Treasury
ury anticipates from the new measure.
discussion for certain obvious reasons.
On its real merits, this argument would hardly warrant extended
has been borrowing at a cost of about one-tenth of 1 percent per
annum on Treasury bills of 9 months' maturity, and at 11/2 to 1%
available constitutes only it. small fraction of the total amount of
In the first place, the aggregate amount of tax-exempt income
percent per annum on 5-year notes. Moreover, much the greater part
of the Treasury's bill and note issues are purchased by financial and
corporate income,
other corporations which derive no benefit from the fact that the in-
viduals In the second place, the larger part of it already indi-
terest on these short-term securities is exempt from surtaxes, since
possess little subject to the higher surtax rates, who, goes to would
corporations are not subject to surtaxes in any event. That is, where-
In the motive for selling their therefore,
as the interest on the short-term Treasury notes held by an individual
income, third ninde place, further increases tax-exempt in the amount securities to others.
might be exempted from a surtax bracket rate no high ns 70 or 75
not likely to be available by new issues of of tax-exempt
percent, in the hands of a corporation the exemption is limited to the
individuals who substantial. It is obvious, tax-exempt securities, are
rate of the corporation income tax, the maximum of which is 15%
exempt sought to convert their large moreover, that wealthy tax-
percent in the case of consolidated railroad returns. Further, the
ing substantial securities taxes would, in the first place, face stock the holdings into
tax exemption that corporations enjoy on the income derived from
Federal obligations does not apply to the dividends based upon this
their present holdings. on It the is also capital gains realized necessity by the of sale pay- of
tax-exempt income when the latter are distributed to the stockholders.
give their possessors certain advantages obvious other that than large dividend stock holdings income,
In the last Treasury financing, that of March 15, 1936, holders of
maturing notes were offered the option of exchanging these notes for
Regraded Unclassified
52
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1930
58
sittur 11/2-pereent 5-year Treasury notes, fully tax exempt from mor-
000,000 on these accounts before arriving of statutory net income or
mail and surtaxes, or 2%-percent 12- to 15-year Treasury bonds 1%
deficit for tax purpose. During the 8 succeeding years, 1931 to
empt only from normal taxes but not from surtaxes. Ninety-one and
1933, inclusive, they deducted more than $15,000,000,000 additional
two-tenths percent of all the exchange subscriptions were made for
on these accounts, making it total for the 8 years of more than
the Treasury bunds, the interest on which is subject to surtaxes, and
$39,000,000,000. These deductible reserves from taxable income,
only 8.8 percent were made for the fully tax-exempt Treasury notes.
which have been approximating $5,000,000,000 IL year, will be allowed
would like to emphasize again that it is tax-exempt income rather
under the House bill as under the present law.
than the principal amount of tax-exenipt securities that is important.
Further, beyond those deductible reserves, the House bill clearly
And 1 would like to point out in this connection that the declining
permits the retention by small corporations of approximately 40
trund of interest rates on State, county, and municipal debts, as well
percent of each year's current earnings and by large corporations of
as on Federal obligations, is operating very powerfully to reduce the
approximately 30 percent of each year's current earnings us additions
amount of tax-exempt income. The average coupon rate of interest
to corporate surpluses upon payment of taxes lower in both CASHIER
OD outstanding State and municipal bonds is estimated at about 4½
than those that would be paid under the present law.
percent. A reduction of only one-half of 1 percent in the average
Despite these facts and the further fact that corporations will
coupon rate would be roughly equivalent to a reduction of 1,900 mil-
remain perfectly free to call upon their stockholders and the capital
lion dollars in the principal amount of the tax-exempt debt out-
markets generally for any additional capital that they may require,
standing, so far as tax-exempt income is concerned. As against the
the proposed change in our system of corporate taxation has been
present average coupon rate of about 4½ percent on the outstanding
called II tax on thrift and a tax that would prevent the accumula-
State and municipal obligations, it is striking to note that the interest
tion of needed corporate reserves. In this connection certain critics
rules on 10 typical new offerings of State and municipal bonds dur-
have attempted to use and to play upon a widespread misappreben-
ing the first 3 months of 1936, as listed in the appended table, run
sion of the nature of corporate surpluses. The implication of their
from 2½ to 4 percent. If the present trend of interest rates con-
remarks is that corporate surpluses consist of pools of liquid assets,
tinure, or even if only the present level is maintained, we can Na-
cash and the like, which corporations keep available for use in emer-
sonably expect a reduction in the total amount of tax-exempt income
gencies. As I have noted before, "surplus" appears on the liability
as a result of the refunding of State and municipal obligations on a
side, not the asset side, of a corporation's balance sheet, and very
lower interest basis,
frequently represents fixed assets such as plant, machinery, or inten-
A fuller distribution of corporate earnings will not create a new.
gible assets such as "good will", patent rights, and 50 forth, none of
silitation ao far as investment in tax-exempt securities is concerned.
which can be "spent" to meet depression needs or to repair damages
The existing individual income-tax rates have already fostered a
caused by a flood, or any other emergency. It is not the size of a.
considerable concentration of tax-exempt securities in the hands of
bookkeeping figure called surplus that determines the ability of a
individuals subject to high surtaxes, and it should be borne in mind
corporation to meet a depression or other contingency, but rather
that IA. further loss of revenue to the Federal Government from this
the amount of the total assets of the corporation compared with its
source could only be caused by a transfer of such securities from
obligations, and most particularly the proportion of its assets which it
individuals and institutions subject to relatively low tax rates to
keeps in liquid form. The proposed measure would have no influence
such individuals in higher surtax brackets. The practical possibilities for
whatever upon the form in which a corporation might decide to
further transfers are therefore limited, both because of the
keep its assets, nor does it limit the total amount of capital that n
existing concentration and because a large volume of institutional
corporation may acquire, When a corporation withholds current
holdings and liquidity, of tax exempts will be retained for their preeminent safety
earnings from its stockholders it is obtaining new capital from them,
the tance number of of corporate reserves and corporate surpluses, some the
Fourth. Finally, I should like to direct attention in detail to
though often without their express consent, no less than when the
stockholders employ portions of their dividends to purchase addi-
tional securities of the corporation.
dent's which has been greatly emphasized by critics of the impor- Presi-
There are some who, though admitting the inequities of the exist-
unfounded plan and of the House bill. There has been deal of
ing system of corporation taxes, nevertheless defend it on the ground
meorporated and misleading criticism of the President's a great
that the corporate surpluses that are thus built up free from sur-
the measure in the House bill on the ground that the proposal of na
taxes serve n public function by enabling corporations to maintain
needed for the would prevent the accumulation of enactment
employment at A higher level than would otherwise be possible in
depressions. maintenance of solvency and of corporate reserves
on this point, There are several sets of obsrvations employment that I shall during make
argument is that it simply did not work, ne I shall show in detail
periods of depression. Now, the most obvious fact bearing on this
cration, tiam, depletion, arriving and at bad taxable debts, income, the usual allows reserves as lawful for deduc- depre-
In the before first place, the bill very definitely
shortly, when in 1929 the greatest depression this country has ever
experienced came upon UF. Not only do we now know that the cor-
porate surpluses accumulated in the twenties were not used to any
inclusive, corporations in the aggregate During deducted the 5 more years than 1926 $24,000,- to 1930,
great extent, in the aggregate, to maintain employment during the the
depression but we also have some ground for suspecting that
Regraded Unclassified
51
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE AGT, 1936
55
accumulation of theme very eurporate surpluses assisted materially in
caming the depression. Thus, it has been argued by very
manufacturing, mining, merchandising. and similár business corpo-
able economic authority that among the causes of the depression was
rations, tell the same story, Nonfinancial corporations reported a
starving of consumption through the withdrawal of a too large
net aggregate deficit after taxes for the 8 years, 1931-33, inclusive,
of 3.9 billion dollars. Their net income before valuation dednctions,
proportion of our funds for corporate capital expenditure. Is it HOT
however, amounted to 11.1 billion dollars, and the dividends paid to
quite possible that in many instances, important in the aggregate,
10.0 billion dollars. It is obvious that the previously accumulated
overexpansion of plant capacity was stimulated by a desire of the
surpluses of nonfinancial corporations, while reduced by valuation
controlling stockholders in corporations to reinvest earnings for the
deductions, did not represent liquid resources that were drawn upon,
purpose of avoiding the taxes that they would have paid if earnings
in the aggregate, to pay wages or dividends. The cash and invest-
were distributed? It is also held by many that one of the vicions
ments of all nonfinancial corporations submitting balance sheets:
influences contributing to the great stock-market boom of the late
amounted to 32.7 billion dollars at the end of 1920; at the end of
twenties was the piling up of corporate surpluses, Stock-market
1933 they amounted to 83.5 billion dollars.
speculation, which had already been stimulated by the more piling
Senator BLACK. Liquid assets?
up of such surpluses, was further stimulated by the volume of surplus
Mr. HAAS. Liquid assets; yes.
funds poured into brokers' loans by corporations,
Even if we confine our attention to deficit nonfinancial corpora>
But let the examine specifically the contention that these accuma-
tions-that is, nonfinancial corporations reporting no statutory net
Inted surpluses were actually used during the depression to maintain
income-we find that valuation deductions, ruther than cash-operat-
employment, dividends, and other payments. Large figures are fro-
ing losses, accounted for the largest part of their aggregate net losses
quently cited to represent the aggregate losses of corporations dur-
during the depression. During the 3 years, 1981-33, inclusive, the
ing the depression. Either by direct statement or by implication
aggregate net losses after taxes of these nonfinancial corporations
the contention is made that these losses represent the amounts which
that reported no net income amounted to 12.1 billion dollars; but
corporations have bad to pay out, in excess of their receipts, to
9.5 bililon dollars of this aggregate deficit, or 78 percent, repre-
workers, suppliers of materials, bondholders, and the like; and that
sented valuation deductions, primarily, rather than cash operating
only their previously accumulated surpluses allowed them to do this
disbursements in excess of cash receipts, It should be borne in
without bankruptcy.
mind, moreover, that a corporation is included in the deficit group
We have been at pains to examine the matter a little further on
only in those years in which it reports no net income; 80 that the
the basis of the actual income-tax returns filed by corporations, and
figures that I have just cited include the losses of all corporations
We find that the figures reported each year to the Bureau of Internal
during their worst years of the depression, and do not include their
Revenue are strikingly at variance with this contention or belief.
net income, if any, in other years of the depression.
in tables attached to this statement:
Let me cite you some of the facts that I shall present in greater detail
The figures that I have cited were obtained from the income-tax
returns actually filed by corporations with the Bureau of Internal
First. If We consolidate the income accounts of all corporations
Revenue. It should be pointed out that there were other deductions
for each of the 3 years, 1931-33, inclusive, we find that they reported
in the book "surplus" of corporations besides those allowed for income-
billion dollars. We also find, however, that this aggregate net deficit
an aggregate net deficit for this 3-year period, after taxes, of 6.6
tax purposes, and some of these represented cash outlays. I want to
make it clear also that the figures that I have presented for all cur-
tion, some 761 million dollars for depletion, some 3.7 billion dollars
was arrived at after deducting some 11.2 billion dollars for deprecia-
porations, for all nonfinancial corporations, and for deficit non-
for bad debts, and some 5.1 billion dollars for loss on the sale of
financial corporations only. are aggregate figures and are subject to
the limitations of all aggregate and composite data. They are not
capital and newts: deduction which, in the main, do not represent current
other outlays making for employment, dividends, and forth. In
necessarily representative of the experience or practices of any par-
ticular corporation. It is also true that in many cases corporations
than 14 billion dollars. and their cash dividends was little a
more than deductions, in the worst depression in history, little
valuation words, the aggregate net income of corporations so before these
employed a portion of the receipts charged off as valuation items for
necessary replacements of plant and machinery. Finally, I should
wages, 18 and billion dollars. For corporations as a whole, a dividends, more
point out that most corporations are permitted to exercise a liberal
range of discretion in the valuation of their assets on their OWN books
of accumulated "liquid surpluses." The book
and not from other payments, came out of current receipts, primarily,
and for their own purposes. Many of them revalue their assets up-
aggregate, corporations Were indeed reduced, but they were reduced surpluses in the
ward during periods of prosperity, thereby creating direct additions
to their surplus accounts, independently of their current income.
of It amots 003 not the by books actual of cash the disbursements. corporations. but by the writing-down
Similarly, in periods of depression many corporations make large
figures they for financial as well as nonfinancial may deceptive because
may include well be objected that these Agures be
write-downs in the valuation of their assets on their own books, and
they make corresponding reductions in their book surplus accounts.
nonfinancial corporations alone, which corporations. include all But of our the
Although the accounting methods of corporations vary consider-
ably, such variations do not affect the income and deficit figures that
Regraded Unclassified
56
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
57
I have presented, because the regulations of the Bureau of Internal
Revenue, are well 48 the statutes, lay down substantially uniform rules
Net income, entuation deductions, and 1951-33 cash dividends poid, for all corporations,
for the determination of taxable and nontaxable income, The Bu.
Da millions of dollars)
reau also receives balance-sheet data in connection with corporation
income-tax returns. Only a limited use can be made of these balance-
Valier
Net in
the
sheet data, because, in contrast to the uniform rules for the deter-
Total
same
dedos-
mination of taxable income, the Bureau has not prescribed detailed
NM in-
Los on
value-
liefore
Cash
Uums
come
Depre-
Deple-
Dad
aala of
tion
value
divi-
as per
uniform regulations for balance-sheet data. It should also be said
Yest
alter
clation
than
debta
capital
dedoc-
tion
dends
taxes
unets
tions
dedoc-
- of
that our statistics of income are not strictly comparable from year
tions
not
deficit
to year, because of changes in law, in affiliations for consolidated re-
turns, and other factors.
Nevertheless, these limitations of the data obtained from corpora-
All corporations:
-$1,175
$4,000
us
$1,183
$1,702
$7,156
$5,980
36,151
5000
tion income-tax returns do not impair the general conclusions that
-4,116
1,000
247
1,313
1,795
0,958
2,643
3,8MI
100
1902
I have drawn respecting the character of corporation deficits during
1933
-1,309
3,496
210
1,200
1,080
a,677
5,201
1,127
the depression and the lises made, such as they were, of the accumu-
Total
-6,044
11,102
761
3,745
5,00
20,701
14,147
13,184
ana
lated corporate surpluses. It must be emphasized, in contradiction to
Cerporations with net In-
certain misleading statements that have gained considerable cur-
earne:
78
343
154
2,321
0,674
3,672
1931
4,353
1,740
rency, that reductions in book surpluses arising in the fashion that I
1932
2,452
1,230
as
200
III
1,640
4,002
2,320
1,157
1,542
as
333
171
2,131
4,269
2,356
1983
have outlined do not represent funds paid out to employ labor, to
purchase materials, or to pay interest or dividends.
Total
0,002
4,498
266
022
635
8,092
16,054
8,574
In general, then, the figures reported to the Bureau of Internal Rev-
Corporations with no net
Income:
enue clearly indicate, first, that for corporations, as a whole, valuation
-1.19
1,257
100
540
1,540
4,336
-eus
2,279
87
1931
104
1,077
1,504
5,318
-1,209
1,000
81
1902
-1,007
1,482
deductions greatly exceeded the aggregate net losses reported during
1933
-4,810
1,904
162
916
1,515
4,547
37
742
101.
the depression; second, that valuation deductions, rather than net cash
Total
-10,000
6,604
Até
2,188
4,65
14,701
-1,005
4,565
HD
outlays, account for the largest part of the losses reported even by
deficit nonfinancial corporations; and third, that corporate surpluses
, Statutory net Income les Federal income taxas, plus dividends and tax-exempt Interest received.
in the aggregate have not been drawn down in fact to maintain
employment, depression. dividend payments, and other disbursements during the
Net income, valuation deductions, and cash dividends poid for all nonftnancial
corporations, 1931-33
In conclusion, I should like to state my conviction that the economic
[In millions of dollars)
arguments advanced in opposition to the proposed change in cor-
Value
porate taxation rest very largely upon misapprehension and misin-
Net In-
tion
terpretation of the facts. While certain of these arguments may
Total
come
dédue-
Net to-
Loss on
value-
before
Cash
tions
appear In plausible to some at first blush, they do not withstand analysis.
come
Depre-
Deple-
Bad
sale of
tion
valim-
divi-
- per-
Year
after
clation
tion
debta
espital
tion my opinion, the proposed change in our system of corporate taxa-
dedue-
tion
denda
rent-
taxes
missts
tions
dedue-
Age of
is one that, in addition to its productivity from a revenue stand-
tions
net
deficit
point, $ whole. would improve the character of our economic organization as
(The tables referred to follow:)
All nunfinancial corpora-
tiens:
1931
-651
4,482
265
696
614
A,227
4,576
4,805
505
-2,070
0,303
245
752
000
4,990
2,014
3,120
168
Typical were munteiped bond issues, January to March 1936
1032
4,755
4,535
2,M2
1,037
1993
-267
3,205
244
720
616
Total
-3,574
10,250
784
2,168
1,800
15,002
11,128
10,567
387
Borrowe
Amount
Coupon
Average
Average
Nonfinancial corporations
maturity
yield
with net Income:
1931
3,515
1,613
77
241
100
2,031
0,546
3,371
1,997
1,143
IS
188
61.
1,475
3,472
2,068
State of Cellfornia
1932
Date of
Percent
2,740
1,492
84
300
104
1,980
4,720
2,158
$1,000,000
Years
Percent
1983
Date el Heath Dakota
256
1,300,000
UN
2.49
N. Y
436
2.16
8,232
4,245
344
729
205
5,485
13,728
7,507
254
Total
Denvibe Vs.
2,196,000
to
11
8.27
Detroit, Mich
1,500,000
3.30
Easton, Ps.
to
1,513,000
15
Nonfinancial corporations
1 Ter
314
1,988,000
1734
1.2
with no net Income:
-4,165
2,039
IM
454
514
8,108
-970
1,324
E
I
1031
Len
-1,459
1,051
2,750,000
954
3.50
71
24
1932
-4,974
2,250
162
554
539
3,515
- Princisco, Cuit
2,102,000
1732
2.65
-2,966
1,713
161
S
512
2,806
-100
205
04
3
4,000,000
14H
1.98
1933
011
2,700,000
1236
2.38
934
Total
-12,125
6,002
All
1,43
1,008
0,516
È
2.070
75
17g purchaser.
4
248
Statutory net Income less Federal Income taxes, plus dividends and tax-exempt Interest reserved.
65452-pt. 2-36-1
58
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1986
59
ADDITIONS TO TAXABLE INCOMES OF INDIVIDUALS
Assuming All 1936 Estimated Corporate Earnings Were Distributed
facts; but, after all, the write-down occurred because all values went
MILLIONS
down. Mr. HAAD. The plant still stayed there.
OF
additional income
Additional Income
OF
DOLLARS
Subject to Surtax Rates of
Subject No Surjex Reter of
DOLLARS
Senator BAILEY. All values went down.
LESS THAN 15%
MORE THAN 16%
Mr. HAAR, That is right,
Senator BAILEY. Now, this write-down occurred without impairing
IOUO
Total Antitional income 82567 Millians
1000
the capital or making the corporations insolvent, and therefore they
continued to operate. Suppose they had had no surplus, then the
write-down would have broken every one of them and you would
000
800
have this country filled with receiverships. That is the point,
Mr. Haas. I am not trying to make a point 08 to how a corporation
Refel Americanal miss $1448 Milero
should organize its capital structure.
Senator BAILEY. I am not either.
MOO
600
Mr. Haah. Whether they can withstand the situation that you
pointed out is largely contingent upon it.
SHIP
$687
Senator BAILEY. Just tell me how they would have withstood the
400
$762
400
write-down of $11,000,000 in 3 years if they did not have a surplus
to be able to write it down. They would have certainly become
$100
1536
insolvent. Mr. Haas. The point is, Mr. Senator, that I have never, through-
200
$30
200
out the testimony, tried to put up any case against not building up a
surplus. I have tried to prove it could be built up, I have tried to
prove it did not employ labor, it did not do these other things.
o
Senator BAILEY. It kept millions of people employed, it kept the
ARE
Under
11000-
$10000-
-
Diru
130000-
$5,000
$0000
$100.000
$30.000
$500.000
Net
o
$100000
$500.000
and over
home Cress
industries going and they employed the labor.
Persons
91302
sible
21.173
9980
4367
612
Additional
Mr. HAAS. No: I do not think so,
Persons
ferer Applicant Persons 176343
form Additional Persons AROSO
Senator BAILEY. The ability to withstand the write-down pre-
fatal Personal 2821002
Total Persons 50,068
vented the corporation from going into receivership. The law is
Senator Baiter. Will you tell me how much the write-down was
very simple. If the capital stock of IL corporation is impaired then
corporations? in the case you were discussing, the write-down of capital assets of
a stockholder can bring an action for receivership.
Mr. Haas. That is IL legal point.
Mr. HAAS, We can get it and put it in the record.
Senator HASTINGS. Mr. Hans, you have made some definite state-
through your figures. You do not sum them up. Assume that there
Senator BAILEY. It sums up to $15,000,000,000. I was running
ments here in the last paragraph, or next to the last, in which you say
[reading]:
this was II write-down of 10 billions of dollars in corporate structures in
First, If we consolidate the income riceounts of all corporation for each of the
solvent country for the last 3 or 4 years, nevertheless they remained
a years, 1931-33, inclusive, we find that they reported an aggregate net deficit
Mr. HAAS, That is right.
and continued to go on. That is true, is it not?
for this S-year period, after inxes, of 6.6 billion dollars.
Did not you have the figures before you when you dictated that
down, mulated except for the fact that they made the write-down of
Senator BAILEY. They could not remain solvent after the write-
statement? Mr. HAAS. These are figures from the income account. Senator
you to write it out of surplus.
have surplus. You could not write it out of capital out structure; necu-
Bailey was asking for figures from the balance-sheet account. Those
figures are in there in the table in the back.
Senator Mr. HAAS, You can write the capital down well
becomes BAILEY. No; if you write down the RS as the other.
Senator CONNALIN. Mr. Hans, let me ask you one question. Sup-
Senator HASTINGS. All right.
it That in not insolvent, a and anybody can close it capital That of a corporation, is statutory.
pose there were not any corporations at all and that we were doing in
Mr. question of fact; that is a up,
business as individuals grouped together and pooled our assets
hearing. not any surpluses. I have not made that argument through you this
have Haas, Well, I am not making any question argument of law. that should
these corporations; is it. not the theory of this bill, if that had been
the case, that we would be getting now the same amount of money as
we propose to get under this bill!
Senator this BAILEY. The write-down is not
Mr. HAAS. In other words, if there was no corporate form of busi-
of not sustained country by insofar as it affects the employment valuable of to the commerco is
ness and they were all operating as partners and nothing else?
the argument. I will agree you have got people. some good It
Senator CONNALLY. If everybody under the present law was op-
erating as partnerships or as individuals and we were taxing them
00
HEVENUE ACT, 1956
BEVENUE ACT, 1956
61
under the existing tax rates we would be getting just as much money-
approximately the same amount of money as we propose to get under
Senator LONERGAN. Now, would not that be a double taxation on
this billy
that 85 percent!
Mr. HAAR. Yes, sir.
Mr. TURNEY, Well, of course, we have to apply the tax to each
Senator CONNALLY. The theory of this bill is that we are not going
corporation, in order to prévent the holding of the entire income in
to allow the device of a corporation to prevent the Government from
one corporation in the chain and in order to get the money into the
getting what it would otherwise get if there was not a corporation?
hands in individual stockholders.
Senator LONERGAN. Yes; but if the corporations are so closely aliko
Mr. Hass. Exactly, Mr. Senator.
Senator HASTINOR. Just a minute. These tables you indicate are
in the nature of their business and the parent organization regards the
from 1981 to 1933. I suppose that is inclusive?
subsidiary as a necessity to enable it to earry on, that is the case I have
Mr. HAAR. We thought that was the worst period.
in mind.
Mr. TURNEY. If the subsidiary declares all its income in dividends,
Senator HASTINGS. Why did not you include 19347
Mr. HAAS. In my statement here I tried to be very careful. I
the subsidiary will not pay any tax. The double taxation only occurs
pointed out deficiencies in the data. It did not affect my conclusion
when you have a retention of income in both corporations.
Senator LONERGAN. You mean that could be avoided by having the
in this case, I took the figures which I thought were at the bottom of
the depression. We would be glad to put in 1934 if you want to, We
subsidiary turn over all of its earnings to the parent corporation!
Mr. TURNEY. Yes, sir: the corporate tax under the bill is based on
do not have it right now it is not available,
Senator BLACK. I want to find out if you have any statement which
the percentage of corporate income retained. If we compare the tax
you have compiled with reference to write-downs, as to the amounts
on an operating corporation owned by individuals, assuming a given
income and amount of retained earnings, with the tax on all enterprise
of dividends that are paid by the companies during that period com-
pared with the other things and the other items. Have you compiled
consisting of an operating company owned by a holding company
those figures?
which is owned by individuals, assuming the same income and the
Mr. HAAS. We can get it.
same total retention in one or both of the corporations, we may find
Senator BLACK. Would there be much difficulty in getting it, so
two taxes, but the total amount of tax will not be more, and may be
that we could find out the amount of it!
less, than in the first case.
Mr. HAAR Yes; I will get it.
Senator LONERGAN. Thank you.
Senator LONERGAN. Mr. Haas, may I ask a question?
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Hans.
Mr. Harr Yes, Senator.
Senator LONERGAN. Say corporation "A" owns all of the stock in
STATEMENT OF FRANKLIN SPENCER EDMONDS, PHILADELPHIA,
corporation "B", except the shares to qualify the directors, and cor-
PA., REPRESENTING THE PHILADELPHIA CHAMBER OF
poration the "B" pays 15-percent corporate tax, the balance is turned into
COMMERCE
bill treasury of corporation "A", would corporation "A" under this
be allowed the deduction of 15 percent?
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Edmonds, as I understand it, you represent
Mr. HAAR. Mr. Turney will answer that,
the Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce
Mr. TURNEY. What is the question?
Mr. EDMONDS. That is right, sir,
Senator LONERGAN. Corporation "A" owns all of the stock
The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed.
over 85 corporation "B" pays 15-percent necessary corporate qualify
directorship; poration "B", except the shares that are to in cor- the
Mr. EDMONDS. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, the
Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce has about 2,000 members repre-
subsidiary! to pay 15 percent on that 85 percent that it receives again from its be
obliged percent to corporation "A." Will corporation "A" tax, turning
senting manufacturers, wholesalers, retailers, tradesmen of all kinds
in Philadelphia. We have had for several years a committee on taxa-
tion and public expenditures, of which I have been chairman during
Mr. Senator TURNEY. LONERGAN, You mean Yes, under sir, the proposed bill?
that whole period, composed of about 45 members. We have made a
study of the taxing problems from the point of view of Philadelphia.
Mr. that TORNEY. It depends on whether
We have gathered data and we have prepared a report, sir, which we
clares retains 30 out in dividends to its stockholders. or not corporation If "A" de-
will be glad to deliver to each member of the committee. That report,
on its reverse side, contains the names of the members of the com-
on the 55 percent percent and it receives pays 15-percent tax, the tax of corporation corporation "A" "B"
mittee, so you can see the businesses in which they are engaged, (See
distributes not pay any to tax. its stockholders. If it will If depend it distributes on the 100 percentage that will it
data nt close of Mr. Edmonds testimony.)
Senator CONNALLY. May 1 interrupt you there for one question!
10-percent tax, in turn retained 30 percent, percent, it will it pay a
Mr. EDMONDS. Yes.
is Mr. Senator the the TURNEY. LONEBOAN, and that That corporation is Notwithstanding right, "B" pays the 15 fact percent! that the ownership
Senator CONNALLY. Has the State of Pennsylvania still on its
statute books an net exempting manufacturers from tax?
Mr. EDMONDS. You mean the capital-stock tax?
Senator CONNALLY. I am talking about the State law.
Mr. EDMONDS. No; it has not-
Regraded Unclassified
62
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1930
63
Senator CONNALLY. Do you not have a law in Pennsylvania that
Mr. EDMONDS. Give me just a moment on that, Senator, I want to
exempts manufacturers from tax?
explain where that variation in. Our income-tax law has a variable
Mr. EDMONDS. We had a law in Pennsylvania for 40 years which
feature in it and their law does not have that feature in it. They
exempted capital engaged in manufacturing from the capital-stock
tax income, the annual recurrent gains, what the average mon thinks
tax. That law was changed in 1935, for II 2-year period, KO they
of as income; we tax income, including capital gains and losses, and
could have a basis for unemployment-relief taxes, Now, in 1987,
it is the capital gains and losses which caused all the trouble in these
when that change expires, I carnot tell what will happen then.
variations in income tax.
Senator CONNALLY. But still the manufacturers in Pennsylvania
Senator BARKLEY. Are you referring to the corporate tax or the
have an advantage today over most of the manufacturers throughout
individual tax?
the United States?
Mr. EDMONDS. This is both. This is all of the income taxes in this
Mr. EDMONDS. Not today.
Senator CONNALLY. Not in this temporary period of 2 years?
period. The CHAIRMAN. In other words, you advocate the elimination of
Mr. EDMONDS. There was a period when Pennsylvania favored
the income-tax law!
manufacturers, and I hope it will favor them again. I see no objec.
Mr. EDMONDS. No, sir; T haven't gotten that far, because that in
tion to that point of view.
not. before the committee. So you have this variable factor that
Senator CONNALLY, I am not arguing that. I just wanted to know
swings your income up and swings your income down. In certain
whether that is not the fact.
periods you have a feast and at certain other periods you have famine.
Senator KING. However, the assets were taxable?
I say that is bad fiscally.
Mr. EDMONDS. Yes; the real estate and everything was taxable, but
Now, you propose to add another feature, namely, by encouraging
when it ennio to the capital invested in manufacturing it was exempt
the distribution of the profits, all the profits, or a very large propor-
tion net income tax.
from that one tax, the capital-stock tax: not at all from the corpora-
tion of the profits. In the good years you will swing up higher and
in the bad years you go down lower.
Now, I would like to say, Mr. Chairman, that our committee has
Senator CONNALLY. Do you advocate lessening the tax in times
considered this bill with very great care, and we would like to pre-
of prosperity and making it higher in periods of hard times?
sent NOND thoughts to you with reference to it which are hostile to
Mr. EDMONDS. I advocate a taxing system which will give you n.
the new portion of the bill, and I want to give you very frankly the
more stable basis. That is what I think business requires. I think
roemorandum. reasons for it, which will be more elaborated on in the printed
this business of going up and down by 223 percent in 2 years is
absurd. When you have the feast, which encourages overspending
view of the Government. an unsound piece of legislation. Why?
In the first place we regard this bill ns fiscally, from the point of
on the part of the Government, they have got the money, and when
you have got the famine, that is when the people are hard up, then
Because today the Government is relying very largely upon income
you have got to levy a lot of new taxes in order to make up the
taxes, but you have an income-tax law which gives wide varia-
deficit. That is not good fiscal organization.
certain different from that of Great Britain in that particular. I have
tions is in the return to the Government. Now. your you income-tax law
Senator BARKLEY. In order to have a general level of taxes, so it
will be the same in depression times as in times of prosperity, you
whom figures here which I obtained from my friend, Mr. Parker,
have got to increase the rate in famines and lower it in feasts.
the United WE regard States. as the must accurate stutistician on this subject in
Mr. EDMONDS. To some degree. They have done it in England,
The Mr. CHAIRMAN, And the committee so regards
In this particular period we know the English are increasing the
income tax. Then also you have lowered certain forms of taxation
ing taxes That the United States collected $21,994,000,000 years up to and includ-
1935 EDMONDS That is fine, sir. In the 13 him, too.
which are just as stable as the English taxes. Take your tobacco tax.
The tobacco tax is the best tax from the point of stability that you
$20,002,000,000. la the Federal Government. Great from income
have got on the statute books, and it is the lowest tax in the percent-
was $1,692,000,000, The average annual income tax in Britain United collected States
Now. and in Great Britain the
age of cost to collect, That is a very remarkable feature.
lowest meome notice the variations in that $1,590,000,000.
Senator BARKLEY. That is the only wartime tax that has never
been reduced in times of war.
<000,000, in T930, Was $747,00,000, in 1933, and same 13-year period. Our
Mr. EDMONDS. It has lived in times of peace as well as in times of
and the highest In other words, the disparity our highest between was the $2,410,-
war. I think the tobacco tax has been on ever since the Civil War.
upo Now, and what downs that amounts you get to 228 from percent. income That is the variation lowest in the
The CHAIRMAN. Pennsylvania does not raise much tobacco, does it?
$1,412,000,000. was it in Great Britain? taxation.
Mr. EDMONDS. Oh, yes; we do, Senator. I beg your pardon. Your
is Was 1923, Their variation in 1935. from and lowest their to highest highest Their was lowest $1,936,000,000, in that period in
fondness is for cigarettes, and mine is for cigars. We raise cigar
tobacco, sir.
223 percent,
The CHAIRMAN. You raise a lot of tobacco for these stogies.
the Senstor British CONNALLY. system? In other words, you favor is 37 percent, our adoption and ours of
Mr. EDMONDS. Whatever they are they are good and they give
comfort to the people.
Regraded Unclassified
64
REVENUE ACT, 1920
REVENUE ACT, 1926
65
Senator BAILET. Let me my on behalf of the South Carolina
Senator CONNAILY Your argument a while ago was shat this tax
farmers that we do not think the tax is equitable, The United States
had resulted in high taxes during periods of prosperity and high
Government gets $1.09 a pound, and the farmer has great difficulty
income and in periods of depression of low income.
in getting twenty. The farmer works all the year to produce the
Mr. EDMONDS. I are sorry, Senator, I did not make myself clear:
tobacco and the Government doen nothing except passing laws,
1 say this: That you have at present one variable factor that gives
Senator KING. The witness says "equable" not "equitable."
you a feast or famine, and you propose to add to that a second varia-
Mr. EDMONDS. I mean equable; I mean stable. From the point of
blo factor which will accent the feast and accent the famine. That
view of the Government that makes a good tax; that is, a good fiscal
is the reason I am opposed to the second factor, I would like to
tax.
pass to the first factor, but I recognize that subject In not before
Senator BARKLEY. That will result in putting the tobacco growere
you at the present time.
in the stable, because the price he gets for it does not compare with
Senator CONNALLY. You are against both factors, NO far no you
the price that the Government gets.
have seen them?
Mr. EDMONDS. sorry I brought up the illustration. Now I will
Mr. EDMONDS. I am against both factors on general principles of
got back to my point, We have a situation in which you force out
common sense. If an Englishman puts in a 25 piece for a horse
net earnings into diverse use at a more rapid rate than the necessities
race and wins a hundred pounds, that is his good luck; the Govern-
of business would require. You would have in 1929 and 1930 14. very
ment takes nothing ont of it.
much higher return from the income tax than you have now, and you
We have made an artificial definition of income in our laws by
would have in 1933 and 1934 a very much lower return than you have
adding this question of capital gains and losses, and by adding capi-
now, and the result would be that you would accent the difference
tal gains and losses we have gotten ourselves into an unfortunate
from the top of the hill to the pit of the valley. That is IL bad
fiscal position in which we have this feast and famine; but I recog-
arrangement.
nize that this is 1936, and you gentlemen have IL practical problem
Senator Bailey. Can you put up a good argument for having 8
before. When the time comes that you will deal with that prob-
corporation? different rate of taxes on the income of an individual from that of a
lem, I hope you will invite me to come down, because I shall be
very glad to come down.
Mr. EDMONDS. I think, sir, that I can set up & good argument.
Now, on this second proposition, I think forcing out the corporate
Will you save that question for a moment or twol
net earnings into dividends, in my judgment, is very bad, from the
perfectly clear, namely, you would have no increased tax on divi-
Now, I ay that is bad fiscally, and I hope I have made my point
point of view of the investor, because it will interfere with the regu-
larity which should characterize an investment.
dends at the time when you were having a feast, and you would have
Now, you have had figures presented to you. I have here certain
an increased tax on dividends just at the time when you are having n
figures for the Allied Chemical, the American Telephone & Tele-
famine, and that would result in just. the same kind of fiscal chaos
graph, the General Electric, United States Steel, Westinghouse Elec-
that there has been in this country for the last 3 years.
tric & Manufacturing.
have on intensifying the famine?
Senator BARRLEY. What effect would the increase in rate famine
One of the Senators asked the question about the American Tele-
phone & Telegraph. For 1935 the net income was $132,000,000.
Mr. EDMONDS, It would certainly intensify the famine. What I
Cash dividends on common and preferred stock, $167,000,000. Now,
of mean to say is the country is just on the point of and instead
all of those corporations, in a 10-year period, have maintained divi-
the permitting taxes, the corporations to use the money, recovery, you make them pay
dends. The United States Steel and Westinghouse reduced their
dividends somewhat, but they have paid some dividends. All of
tax
Senator law? CONNALLY. Are you advocating that we keep the present
those corporations for the last 5 years were paying out more in divi-
dends than they were getting in net earnings, but they tried to
ground Mr. EDMONDS. that it is I am advocating that you leave it the
maintain regularity. When they were accumulating the peak they
Senator too complicated to work under the alone, on
would be paying heavier taxes, and consequently they would not
now! CONNALLY You ay you want to leave it proposed alone like statute. it is
have the funds with which to make their dividend regularly. I
Mr. Senator EDMONTS, You mean the present tax law?
insist, from the point of view of the government that wants regil-
larity of income and the point of view of the investor who wants
CONNAILY. Yes,
stand Mr. EDMONDR for the If you are asking me the
regularity of return, it is better to let those corporations smooth out
taxing I matters, present tax law, I say "No." question I have as to whether
the peaks and precipices themselves, and do it on a basis that will
give them a regularity of return.
had Senator in the CONNALLY. past have and I not am been sure the some laws of that the We tax laws a that reputation we have in
I had these figures put in my hands a moment ago by the president
of a corporation who is in this room today. Net loss over a. 4-year
leave
it alone, A minute ago you said should you would have want had. to
period prior to 1933, $1,000,000. Profits, 1983, $26,000. Profits, 1934,
Mr. EDMONDE I say, leave this fox alone.
$40,000. Profits, 1935, $100,000. That is $160,000 of profit made
possible by increased sales. This is a retail store. But in order to
Regraded Unclassified
66
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1934
67
carry on that business with the increased sales they had DI increase
their inventory by $100,000. That was the development of New lines
DRIVING OUT SURPLUSES
They had to increase their accounts receivable by $75,000. That Was
Perhaps the main argument par forward in favor of the proposed drastle Tax
in order to carry the new accounts, They had to make improvements
on corporation surpluses is that billions of dollars are not paid out in dividends
In the store and in the delivery service of $15,000. So to get that 3
at present and benee excape the Federal tax cullector. These surpluses actually
years' profit required an outlay of $190,000 from their working
do pay M tax an part of the net forome of the corporations, but it is alleged that
If they were paid out in dividends the Government could collect a far higher
capital. In other words, they had to borrow money as well as use all
average rate on them as part of personal Incomes, That there are individual
their profits.
corporations formed OF conducted for The purpose of lowering the las rate which
Now, that is the condition of many businesses today. I have in
very wealthy Individuals would otherwise have to pay is doubtless true. The
mind particularly the small business. They have the idea that they
revenue laws, however, already provide penalties where corporations are used
for the purpose of las evaxion. Whatever the Treasury may gato to a drigle
will eventually grow and grow. Many of you gentlemen have prac-
year by "driving out the surpluses", Its probable gains over a series of years
tieed law, and you have seen in your practice cases of small busi-
would be much more dubious.
nesses, how the man works, saves, and plows the money back, and
Aothing could make this cleurer Ibno the table complied from Treasury
eventually gets the big business. It seems to me the opportunity to
Department reports by the National City Bank in Its March botterin. Below is
do that sort of thing ought still be left to the people of America
a simplified form of (De table showing the Taxes paid, net earnings, and divi-
dends of all manufacturing corporations in the Unlted States for the years 1921
through the sacrifices that are necessary to build up the business.
without putting too high a tax on them. if they are willing to go
to 1938:
Now, my second point is that this up-and-down business is bad for
Net Income after
the investor, and it would be bad in the long run for the character
Year
Taxes paid
Dividends paid
TOXOR
of the American people. It is better to have these corporations with
a surplus that will give a regularity of dividend and a regularity of
1921
$298,000,000
$ 8472,000,000
$1,216,000,000
580,000,000
2,251,000,000
1,805,000,000
rather return. even though they accumulate a surplus in order to earry it on,
1922
$84,000,000
3,088,000,000
1,761,000,000
1923
than taking it away from them in taxes.
1524
907,000,000
2,334,000,000
1,631,000,000
1935
1,077,000.000
8,154,000,000
1,908,000,000
The CHAIRMAS. You haven't the figures there of the Gulf Refining
1,139,000,000
3,124,000,000
2,116,000,000
1920
Co., have you!
1,065,000.000
2,583,000,000
2,226,000,000
1927
1928
1,118,000,000
3,355,000,000
2,507,000,000
Mr. EDMONDS. No: I have not, sir,
1929
1,161,000,000
3,802,000,000
2,575,000,000
1930
952,000,000
801,000,000
2,613,000,000
The CHAIRMAN. Have you the figures there of the Aluminum Co.1
731,000.000
1995,000,000
1,804,000,000
1931
Mr. EDMONDS, No.
1932
647,000,000
11,006,000,000
1,115,000,000
1023
$52,000,000
' 3,000,000
1,000,000,000
dends they paid out in the last 10 years?
The CHAIRMAS. You do not know how much in the way of divi-
Average
145,000,000
1,630,000,000
LASA,000,000
wen a reference to it in the House at some time.
Mr. EDMONDS. I have no knowledge of the Aluminum Co. I have
Dedett.
Times Senator few BAILEY. I think I saw in the in the
The following facts emerge in DI this table For every dollar Unit the cor-
88 IL share, 48. weeks ago, that on last year's paper, earnings they New paid about York
porations paid to their shareho for the use ano risk of capital, about DA
cents was paid in taxes to the Federal and local governments. The share-
holders, in addition, later paid Income surtaxes on the dividends they received.
attempt Mr. EDMONDS. to I think, Senator, you ought to consider
What is more significant from the standpoint of the proposed tax, these cor-
One or two make laws for the United States with the view this: of catching If you
porations actually paid out over this period of 18 yours H. higher unnual average
The particular corporations, you will make
sum than their net earnings. While net earnings regularly exceeded dividends
porations: CHAIRMAN. We are not trying to catch foolish laws.
for the 8 years from 1022 by 1929, in the next 4 years dividends paid out of
accumulated surpluses greatly exceeded current enrologs.
lutions will We not are allow trying to make uniform laws, just so that some of the cor-
Wholly apart from the social effects of the proposed tax on surpluses in HEREN-
vantage all their earnings piled up to certain the disad- insti-
vating the violence of the business eyele and In retarding the rate of industrial
Mr. and inequalities of the entire to be
growth, one may ask whether It Is not short-sighted. even as a Government fiscal
to EDMOXDS. the taxing You made some amendment situation.
policy. Over a period of 13 years manufacturing corporations, taken as a whole,
actually did pay out in dividends even more than their full stututory not Incone
and ago, companies that bill, expand with their reference to personal a year holding ago, companies or 2 years
in that period. It was fortunate for the Treasury that they paid it out na they
did. If they had paid out everything to the years from 1922 for 1929. there would
methods tional I have CBSES that here rather you an article already than change have are the surplus. what law for you us It ought seems all, to to use me for that excep- those
have been # much more greatly shrunken volume of dividends during the depres-
sion to tax in personal Incomes than there actually WRR. The new policy. If
adopted, would tend to increase the violence of the fluethallens in the Federal
for who The the has record. some figures I will that not from I read think the New are pertinent, York Times and by I Henry will supply Hazlit, it
Government's income. making dividends higher than otherwise, whether other
tax sources were bigher and lower Than otherwise, when other tax sources were
lower.
(The CHAIRMAN. article You may put it that for the the particular record.
years.
Mr. EDMONDS. Here is the average. They paid 948 millions in
referred to is as follows:) in
taxes, and their net income, after taxes, the average, was $1,630,000,000.
The dividends they paid were $1,838,000,000. In that period their
Regraded Unclassified
68
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1930
69
average shows something like $200,000,000 per year distributed more
she productive line you give employment to about 900 more in the
than their net earnings in that period, and that shows how the tend-
servicing lixues that are made necessary for the thousand that are
enery is to equalize the feast-and-famine proposition by wirely managed
employed in that special position. The consequence in that when it
gives ao additional employment to 1,100 men you have practically
corporations. Senator BAILEY. And to maintain the constant buying power.
2,000 men that are removed from the relief rolls at once.
Mr. EDMOXDR. Yes: to maintain the constant buying power and
Now, frankly, it seems to me that the United States ought to
employment. Let me speak on the third proposition.
encourage those new industries, and I want to say that there is no
Senator BARRLEY. Let me ask you n. question first.
factor that has done 80 much for developing new ideas as the
Mr. EDMONIS, Here is my third point: I want to ask you gentlemen
research departments that have been built up in the corporations
if you have considered fully the relationship of this kind of tax to
with their aurpluses. That, in my mind, is the great feature, 60 far
unemployment, I understand the tax bills are designed to trise reve-
as the life's blood of our Nation is concerned.
nne. That ought to be their primary object, and their primary object
We do not continue in this country in a static way. We are a
must to their most important object.
dynamic people. We advance, If a man does anything this year
The CHAIRMAN. That is so stated in the bill.
in one way, he wants to do it better next year, whether it is automo-
Mr. EDMOXDS. Every thinking man must give consideration to the
bile, railroad, textile manufacture, or whatever it may be. It is that
fact that in this country there are millions out of work. How are
improvement that requires capital.
these millions going to be put back to work again?
Now, how are you going to provide the capital if the whole pres-
1 am very glad to ay personally I have my own philosophy on
sure of the Government is put upon having net incomes paid out
the subject. While I haven't introduced myself to you at the begin-
as rapidly us possible?
ning of my address, I will say that I was chairman of the Ponn-
Now, I submit to you, gentlemen, that from the point of view of
sylvania Tax Commission from 1924 to 1927. That is not a commis-
the Nation, looking at it from the point of view of getting ourselves
sion like the one that Mr. Stone presides over in Mississippi, it was
out of the situation that we are in now, I say that any possible
not administered to increase the revenue from taxes, it was to reduce
encouragement that is given to this experimentation is the thing that
the revenue, like I said to the chairman of the Ways and Means
will evenually lead us into the list of new occupations that will take
Committee. I was on the uniformity and reciprocity committee of
up our slack. I could tell you a lot more about that if you would
the State Tax Association. I Was president of the National Tax
like to hear it.
Association in 1932 and 1933, So at any rate I have given some
Senator BARKLEY. I have no doubt of your sincerity and your
little thought on this subject.
earnestness in what you said. I appreciate it, You made some very
It is my very clear feeling that we would go out of the depression
interesting statements about what we ought not to do in order to
only by encouraging now industries. It is the new industries that
raise this additional revenue which we must have. Have you any
must take up the slack of unemployment, How can they do that?
suggestion as to what we ought to do in order to raise it?
In our report we give you n special illustration of the Budd Co. of
Mr. EDMONDS. I will tell you very frankly what you ought to do,
Philadelphia. Edward B. Budd is a man who is a genius in dealing
sir. You want to raise $700,000,000. Cut down expenses by
with metals. He started 30 years ago making automobile tops, and
$700,000,000 and you are in just the same position. That is the only
he has a pretty large business along that line, For the last 5 or 6
answer business can make to you. We say in here that the Federal
years he has paid no dividend. They have spent 6 years in experi-
Government ought to devote itself to its ordinary program. That, I
menting with stainless steel. They did not invent stainless steel, but
imagine, would be $4,000,000,000, and it ought to provide money for
net fubricate it, They spent a million and a half of their accumulated
they to did fabricate it, and they were the first company that was able
unemployment relief, because the State and the local government
cannot take hold of it in this magnitude at the present time. Let us
These They have given a new industry to the United States
dime? earnings in trying to solve that problem. And what have they
say that would be $5,000,000,000. maybe 01/2 billion if you include the
C. C. C. camps, If you cut down the expense of 5½ billion dollars,
coming zephyr trains on the western plains, for which the order today. is
business would be only too glad to sit down with you, because then
Mainlom in how, is one of the things that they are this
we would be on a stable basis.
this stainless stool for. The Federal Government has fabricating of
Senator BARKLEY. This additional income is made necessary be-
ands, Mr. steel fabrication for the superstructure required of some
cause of the passage of the honus bill, which is now an accomplished
liven Budd telle me that he has put into that the war ves-
fact, and because of the decision of the Supreme Court in nullifying
that will employees who were not employed development 600
the processing tax as a part of the agricultural program,
calendar year. increase employment possibly to a 1,100 year before ago. He the has end orders of the
Mr. EDMONDS. In other words, it is made necessary by the legisla-
tion of Congress.
sions, Now, Remember frankly, that is the way in which
Senator BARKLEY. Well, the legislation was necessary because we
Bodd's case, the head that of every a family, one of those you 1,100 get is out probably, of the depres- in Mr.
could not have A. genuine prosperity in this country unless agricul-
ture shares in it, and although for 10 years you have been boasting
Bgures-that Remember also what Colonel Ayres proved
of artificial prosperity in other classes, everybody knows the condi-
every time you give employment so to n. conclusively thousand men in his in
tion of the farmer had been growing more serious all the time.
Regraded Unclassified
70
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1930
71
Mr ROMONDS. If you will make a bargain with time] will say if
exhausted our taxing ability, We cannot borrow any money."
you will not put On me the sins of my party, I will not put (8) you
Therefore, Uncle Sam had to MARRITOR the tarrden. We had to assistion
the sins of your party.
it or allow millions of people to state or freuze, We did not aetime
Senator BARRLEY. I am not putting on you the sins of any party,
the burden because. WW want to do it. I would be glad to get out
Mr. EDMONDS. You talked of my 10 years' boast.
from under it tomorrow, so far BB the whole program of Uncle Sam be
Senator BARKLEY. I and speaking to you not in an individual way,
concerned, if we could do it, but we cannot
It was the boast of business in the whole country. They are opposed
Mr. EDMONDS. I am willing to agree that no man will put his head
to any legislation that is designed artificially to remedy (L situation
in the noose willingly.
that was created artificially. Now, whether we were wise in the
The CHAIRMAN. Your time has expired, but if you want to extend
passage of the Agricultural Adjustment Act or not, it increased the
it by adding anything else you may do so,
farmers' income over $3,000,000,000 IL year. It enabled him to begin
Senator Gronge I want to ask upe question with reference to the
paying his debts and to buy some of the things that your factories
bill. Assuming that under this bill n corporation may accumulate
produce. You may OF may not agree with that program, but it was
reserves, on the aggregate, of approximately 30 percent of their
adopted, and it is the only one that has been adopted in 20 years that
annual net earnings without a corporate-tax outlay, which is more
worked, although the Supreme Court held it unconstitutional, which
than under existing law, what have you to say on that point?
they did way back in 1890, when we passed an income-tax law, and
Mr. EDMONDS. My point is it loses sight altogether of the corpora-
which they have done some 65 times since the Government was or-
tions that ought to accumulate all their earnings.
ganixed in 1787. 8o there is nothing peculiar about the fact that the
Senator GEORGE, I understand that you take the position they
Supreme Court declared that particular law unconstitutional and
should be allowed to accumulate all their earnings,
declared one or two others unconstitutional.
Mr. EDMONDS. Yes,
Mr. EDMONDS. Don't forget that for the income tax we amended
Senator GEORGE. On the average, would that not give you a fair,
the Constitution. Why do not you amend the Constitution for the
healthy corporate structure?
A. A. A.Y
Mr. EDMONDS. I do not think, personally, that it would. 1 think
Senator BARKLEY, We haven't had time. I do not know that it is
it would be an encouragement to established business that has its
necessary. Personally, I hope it will not be necessary; but we are
surplus before January 1, 1936, and it would be a terrible discourage-
talking about a condition how produced by the effort of the American
ment to the young man who is starting out in business with little
Congress to stimulate agriculture and to stimulate industry, too, You
will admit that it was an artificial stimulation, but it was an arti-
capital. Senator GRORGE. We cannot go back and remedy that,
ficial condition that brought about the necessity for stimulation.
Mr. EDMONDS. You cannot tax him back, but you can lift the young
have money, The question is: Where are we going to get it? If
Now, we have got this condition here. We have got to get some
man out by patting him in such IL position that be only pays as much
as competitive businesses do.
of have it. It is not an answer to say that we must pay the
to got, any idea ILH to where we are going to get it, I would like you
student of the subject, with practical experience and dealing with
Senator GEORGE The point I am asking you, would you say, as
by agricultural benefits that are already imposed on the Government expenses
a practical affairs, would you say that the leeway there, the possibility would
in the reducing the expenses in some other branch of the Government
of retaining approximately 30 percent of the annual earnings, the
Mr. I Was giving you an answer that
amount of some seven or eight million dollars.
not give a necessary reserve to the prudent corporation, assuming
that gives ont, and it says very frankly that it is the demand our committee'
policy of setting aside such part of it as might be necessary?
Mr. EDMONDS. No. Senator. Let me give you an illustration. I
give you save this money by cutting down expenses. Now, of business
incorporated 6 months ago a hardware business for $10,000. Prac- 10
It is is you my personal answer. I think we are tied to the let me
tically all the stock is owned by a man who started in business for
be the leavy lost sight of the fact that you gentlemen
have sometimes very -ad condition that we are in. I think that eross, and
years himself ago, and he wants to separate his corporate investment
He is saving up the surplus. He is buying a house from his
the Federal money spending end of the Government. you are not supposed to
the State and Government used to spend about 31/2 billion Ordinarily
personal investment. That man will have to plow all of his earnings
that I think local governments spent 8 billion dollars, dollars, and
business that can compete with the other businesses in the community.
into that business for at least 5 or 10 years before it becomes a healthy
X billion you have got the Federal Government In place of
impoverishing dollars. the What is the result of that? You spending are about
It is that man that you are hurting.
Senator GEORGE I understand that. He has got. some competitivo
support themselves, essety on which local governments are gradually going to
back, but would it not develop, over a reasonable period of years, make it a
disadvantage by the fact that he cannot plow all of his earnings
ments Senator came BARKLEY. to Washington We have and to laid do that, because the local govern-
fairly strong, healthy corporate structure? Would that not
Uncle Sam. They said, "We have exhausted their burdens our resources, on the doorstep we have of
possible? EDMONDS. To that question my answer is "No." T think dis- you
would Mr. discourage tremendously new business, and you would
72
REVENUE ACT, 1956
REVENUE ACT, 1930
73
courage the small businesses that grow into the big business that
provide additional revenue (fir velief. Under Ibese If Le the
serve to be worthy of encouragement.
duty of all eltima to constiter the general subject and to give their twest sulvice
Senator LA FOLLETTE Under the illustration you gave the fact in
to their representatives. Community we milline herewith the courses of
that under this bill that corporation would retain 40 percent, is that
netion which we are propared to recommend to our representatives in Congress
truel
and in the general assembly of the titare
Mr. EDMONDS, I think that is true. It is 40 or 30 percent. That,
1, GENERAL PRINCIPLE
by the way, is the last point that I wanted to touch on. May I say
this, Senator, [ have it very high regard for the Senate of the United
It to no aften-quoted general principle that ordinarity the bodgets of gov-
emment must be bulanced and that the current yearly income must equal the
States. I hope very much, when you frame 11 tax bill that you will
current yearly outgo. In a time of empomie strain it In comential that the
frame it in understandable English. My feeling is that the bill you
On the part of the Federal Government we would like to see a carefut scrutiny
representatives abould lirst examine the outgo before they provide the income.
have got before you now does not contain understandable English
for the average man. Now, I have read it, I have gone over it with
of expenses, eliminating every extraordinary expense on the Federal Budget
except the provision for the support of the unemployed, which at the prosent
my partners, and it is quite clear to me that you cannot understand
time In too grent to be provided by State of local Beauces exclusively. Every
it except by taking a practical illustration and working it out,
other form of expenditure except the ordinary program of government should
The CHAIRMAN. We hope you will understand it when we finish it.
be brought to a termination BE specifity as possible and the Rudget made up on
Mr. EDMONDS, That will be fine.
this basis.
Until this is done the business interests of the country are compelled in self-
Senator KING. What would you think of n proposition to increase
defense to record their opposition to all new forms of toxation. When expendi
the corporate taxes in four categories-15 percent, 16 percent, 17 per-
tures have been reduced to " minimum the bustness Interests of the country
cent, 18 percent in the highest, and then increase the income taxes
should cooperate In suggesting methods of raising revenue to the end that budgets
upon individuals, increase the surtaxes from 4 to 5 percent, and then
may be balanced and IL stable fiscal condition result. But If in quelose to expect
these surgestions from business until the work of economy has been done of B
increase the surtaxes on income in the higher brackets to raise about
program for its accomplisbment adopted.
N bill? OF 9 hundred millions of dollars, in comparison with the present
II. FEDERAL GOVERNMENT
Mr. EDMONDS, It is better than the present bill. The point of view
There la now pending in the Congress of the United States a proposition which
of OUTF chamber of commerce is you ought to cut down Government
is expressed in the report of a subcommittee of the Committee on Ways and
and expenses: but it is better, because it is equitable under a general law,
Means of the House of Representatives, but which at the time of the preparation
of this report has not yet been reduced to the form of a bill. In principio it la
accountant or attorney. This bill ought to be clear. It requires an
you do not throw on the little man the burden of employing
B
proposed to abolish the Federal corporation Income and capital-stock taxes and
to substitute therefor a graduated tax upon the net earnings of corporations,
accountant her of in computing tax matters. I am representing the cham- an
the rate increasing with the proportion of net earnings that shall be attained
frankly commerce, which is on a little higher plane, but I
after January 1, 1986, but not distributed as dividends to stockholders. It is
COD know you ought to have something here so that the average say very man
furthermore proposed to extend the normal personal Income (AI no as to apply
what you are for.
the same to the dividends which taxables receive. It le claimed that these
Senator BLACK. Are you an attorney?
principles will result In a reduction in the taxes paid by corporations to the
Mr. EDMONDS. Yes: I am an attorney.
Federal Government, but in no increase In the returns of the personal net Income
tax TO so great a degree as to provide for the losses resulting from the reduction
Mr. Senator BLACK. What is the name of firm?
In corporation taxes, with n net additional revenue In excess of $000,000,000.
(The EDMONDS. Edmonds, Obermayer & your Rebmann, in Philadelphia.
The proposal for a graduated tax on net earnings of corporations not dis
tributed as dividends la not new. It was considered in Congress In 1921 and in
report referred to by Mr. Edmonds is as follows:)
!ater years, and It has frequently been advocated by those whose point of view
has been fastened upon the relatively few corporations, some of which are more
HEROUT Or COMMITTEE on TAXATION AND Puncie EXPENDITURES
or less personally controlled and which by accumulating net earnings save to
their stockbolders the burden of paying personal Income tax upon dividends
Porcuments CHAMPER or COMMERCE,
which might otherwise be declared. It is to be noted that under existing law,
To The the committee Board of Directors, Philadet) Año Chamber
sections 102 and 351 [the latter enneted to 1084), provide a present method of
April 15, 1930.
taxing undue coporate surpluses. The advocates of this principle contend that
the Prom tollowing the report: on toxation and public expenditures of Commerce: respectfully. submits
If an individual makes money he pays personal Income tax thereon: that If a
partnership makes money the partners pay income tax upon the entire amount
the During via, the the totor Federal, of View State, of texation, and local every citizen la subject to three authori-
of the proñts: but that If n corporation makes money the stockholders only pay
personal taxes upon so much of the earnings as may be distributed to them.
by ench of theme period profuments, of The depression governments. additional
While this argument in persuasive, we are convinced that It does not meet
in Other class by borrowing by taxation, other cases obliged to raise
additional Finda tu - Pares and as n result they duttes have been have been assumed
the necessity of the American people at the present time for the following
early branch of money on short-term loans. by selling bonds, and
reasons: (e) As a résult of the prolonged depression the surpluses of many corporations
may tox the led to the ralsing of money The pressure upon
are exhausted, and in Justice to the business (hey should be renewed without let
reclmated filse At statem provail to THE THE THE produce This necessity THE of The by any complicated. Au a device result that the
or hindrance from the Federal Government
position as compared with a partner or an individual has force, yet If entirely
(b) While the argument that a stockholder in a corporation is in a favored
overlooks the fact that the corporation net Income tax la designed to meet
attiment that there will be a special to $700,000,000. meeting of the The general State revenue assembly government measure DO
proctsely this attuation.
2-10-1
74
REVENUE ACT, 1939
REVENUE ACT, 1938
75
IN Experience has shown Unit to the larger industrial corporations the Me-
cumulation of a surplins has tended toward stability to dividends, procident the
Under Check circumstances We advise our Representatives in Exa Don-
everage of of members is maintained. This stability in dividends fustres a
sider first the ORIGO of Government, and when a SIDE fluttred But unduary
regular locome to (lie stockholder and a stable Income las to the Government,
expenditures. together with the welfare need indicated above, has been lieter-
legislation encouraging vorporations to distributo all or a larger part
mined, these to consider the question as to how the money shall be raised: and
of their net earnings le dividends will ineritably restile in 11 large dividend to a
to this effort the Philadelphis Chamber of Commerce will be glad to conporate.
year of property and a small dividend of no dividend In a year of depression
Hursby depriving the stockinder of a regular divident, and, furthermore,
IfI. STATE GOVERNMENT
promoting wide variations to governmental income." The new proposal will
doubtime an Immediate increase in dividends, which, under presont
The Governor of Pennsylvania has announced that the general assembly will
resultions, will le a sign of @ temporary properity rather Ham IL herald of a
meet in special semion in the week of May 4. and IL is understood that CDP of
perminent prosperity.
the primary needs of the sometion will be the provision of additional revonue for
(d) The proposal loves eight altogetter of the great the which has been made
problems atising out of the apring Boods and unemployment relief.
By numy industrial eurporations in the bullding up of Internetive and plan throngh
During the post. to years the State of Prunsylvania has ensicted IS DAIW
the when (EMP of surpluses The experience of the Ford Motor Co, which today
taxed of which S. not including the personal Income tax, which has been
represents an Investment out of earnings of $700,000,000 and gives employment
declared to be unconstitutional, were eparted in 1935, We recommend to the
directly to 70,000 turn and Indirectly to thousands additional from un original
Governor and the legislators the careful consideration of the following questions:
sade Investment of $40,000, is an Illustration of this principle. We life nig-
(a) What revenue has been produced by the eight DPW taxes imposed in 1035.
vinced that the way oil of the depression is through the development of new
and what may fairly be expected for the bleanium for which them taxon were
Works, and that nothing in an conducive to such a development as the Wise USM
imposed?
of rerporation eming in research, analysis, and experiment in order that
(6) What has been the cost of collecting this revenue?
Ideas may le prepared The the market. As an illustration of what can Do
(e) Are there any of the ordinary custs of State government which can be
days along this line, We refer to the example of the Budd Co. in Philadelphia,
reduced in order to provide = fund for the unemployed? It will be reculted
which quat more than one and une bulf million dollars from Its "Drides and il
that the special seasion of 1982 reduced the Budget appropriations by a aum
years in experimentation upon statuless steel before an adequate method of
In excess of $13,000,000 In order to provide Funds tue unemployment in that
fabricating this product could be developed, As a result this browch of the
year.
Bublit Oil la today employing 000 need who were not employed 2 years ago, and
(d) in view of the wide disparity In the estimates emanating from Dr.
has already received orders which will require 1,100 employees In this depart
formed sources, we ask the question:
ment, this being a substantial fraction of the 6,500 men presently employed In
What la the real need in Pennsylvania to provide for Its unemployed, and
the plant, This company affords an excellent illustration of the way in which
is II not possible that this need ean be estimated with sufficient finality and
unemployment can be relieved through the development of new Ideas
accuracy to satisfy the taxpayers?
When these questions have been adequately answered, we believe that Penn-
plan la not in harmony with the American tradition, We believe that If
In a general way, the English promote new Ideas by the sale of stock, but this
sylvania will be ready to provide the funds Decessary to care for Its unem-
by difficult to finance new Ideas In America by the mile of stock to would
ployed. but until these questions are adequately answered, It will be difficult
digree Industrially speaking, our country La dynamic and not any static, adequate
to secure the cooperation of the tax-paying public,
the bin developed in large measure through the practice of putting
eXpet have continuous Improvements in process and Ideas, and these Improvements We
IV. LOCAL GOVERNMENT
facilities. industry earnings of our bustnesses, resulting in larger back into
America new Ideas, and additional employment. It will be a plants, day grenter for
We commend the elty of Philadelphin upon the improvement in THE
Committee will be noted that the suggestion contained In the practice,
(e) It is when to Its Government should decide to discourage this sorry
collections. The receiver of taxes reports for the first 3 months of 1030 that total unty
the not result In balancing the Budget in 1037. report If of the sub-
tax collections from all sources were $47,796,581. an Increase of $3,925,200 over
It will curporation lay Is not distributed as dividends until after the first the Income of
last year. There In an Increase in the collections of city taxes, school taxes,
strakholder. another Il is year before It is reported In the Income of the of individual the year.
personal-property ERXIN and delinquent taxes, There is a small decrease In
any klow of bringing apparent, the Budget therefore, Into prompt that this balance, taxing plan Is not Insed upon
water rents.
Recent negotiations which have been pending in the United States district
singh Insurance where necessity for eliminating corporations plan of taxation, and
(f) as There The are a number of other objections to the proposed
court suggest that It Is possible that a settlement may be reached between
the city of Philadelphia, the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Co., and the owners
Introwed extensively the public, the status that they may
continue their service the growth to in surplys is Decessary engaged in order in banking
of the underliers is the transit system. It Is proposed that the consideration
for the purchase of the underliers whall be paid in Philadelphia bonds In the
fron to repay during the period of the depression of corporations which have
event that these negotiations result in an Issue of municipal bonds, and the
for texture depleted Ovile debts, sinking the status of those corporations and which are are under eon-
payment in cash to the underliers, we recommend to the mayor and city counell
dividends Pur la their stockholders, funds or capital before they can distribute required any
the advisability of authorizing nn Insue of serial bonds for this purpose. In
1927 the Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce appointed a special committee
alleration all of liefure these We submit that the plan
to consider the relative advantages of serial and winking-fund bonds for the
and will work an the economic National House of Representatives of taxation la now under unsound con-
city, consisting of Sydney 1º. Clark, Frank M. Hardt. Edward Hopkinson, Jr.
Walter E. Long. Roland L, Taylor, and Joseph 11. Van Dorn. This committee
perfort of coonvery which is no hardship profoundly on desired. the American people, fiscally delaying the
unanimously recommended serial bonds. The chairman of this subcommittee,
Mr. Clark, has prepared n. memorandum which Is attached to this report which
- Allina to le the Cleasical Period of & of the If The following results are
Indicates the practice In other American citles.
During the past 6 years there have been a number of disputes with reference
- - in as year. and for à American Telephone year, and for 2 years the noted dividends (1)
to the administration of the sinking funds and the appropriations which should
- M the paid dividends years the in dividends WITH In PRODUC & Telegraph has paid divis
be made from the public treasury. We believe that the time has eomo to
- nd for a man Not the Income (4) each your Rivel-Das and for 4 years of the the dividends net Income: were (3) to
inaugurate " system of serial bonds on which the appropriation for interest
TM IN . of the bet Income, paid notge dividends each year.
and retirement will be a definite matter of computation without requiring the
sed for 3. of line will par, Ivery and There for Was 5 There . the Electric dividends & Manufacturing in and for of 3 base the of not these paid Income, years sime
intervention ofther of export accountants or of the courts of law,
It be to be noted that the city is under the immediate necessity of providing
additional CERTIFY THE the sinking fund. Under the declaim of the Supreme Court
Regraded Unclassified
76
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1926
77
on Jenuary a, 19896, the city WILE directed to pay forthwith to the sinking funds
the of $7,067,015.04 for the requirements of 1935. But $1,000,000 has the
Detroit, population 1959 century, 1,5An,662
Per been provided, and we recommend to city evancil to formulate at once a plan
fur Chis payment, and to this end to inaugurate n. policy of strict economy In the
numbripal business.
debt service to Pobruary 1933 and effected a recrganisation of Its debt which
Detroit presents a special situation inaemuch as the (iii) defaulted no as
V. CONCLUSION
became operative about a your later. Briefly, the city of Detroit refunded prio-
We remind our representatives that If is probable that at present 20 present
however, that AS market conditions have warranted during the past 2 years the
the same coupon rate and callable any Interest date at 100. It is to be noted,
cipal amounts of bonds matoring up to July 1, 1945, into 30-year houds bearing
of the gross of our people Is being used for the expenses of government.
If we included the entire expenditures of government, Including loans for eur-
city of Detroit has ealled certain of the 20-year refunding bonds referred to above
word expenses, We would be obliged to say that the total outlay of government in
and replaced them with serial Insues
the United States at the present time represents more than 30 percent of the
Los Angeles, Calif., population 1980 1,238,048
grom of the people. It In impossible to expect that business will expand
so ne to take up the stack In unemployment so long as this condition exista
Business needs stability in taxation In order that plans may be formed for the
In December 1930 Los Angeles had ontstanding approximately $195,000,000
future, ind such plane are essential in order that unemployment may be reduced
pur value of bonds, all In serial form, with the Intest maturity 40 years from
to a minimum.
date of Issue
We prosent these suggestions in the strong hope that the point of view here
Cleveland, Ohio, population 1930 census, 900,429
presented may met with the approval of our legislators and thereby pave the
way for a restoration of prosperity.
In December 1985 Cieveland had outstanding both types of municipal bonds-
Respectfully submitted.
sinking fund and serial. All of the sinking fund, however, were Issued in 1921
TAXATION AND PUBLIC EXPENDITURES COMMITTEE
or fund Issues. However, as noted above, no sinking-fund bonds have been Issued
prior thereto, The city has Issued serial bonds since 1914 along with sinking-
for: Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce.
since 1921. The approximate relative par value of each type of bonds out-
Prepared by: Mr. Sydney P. Clark.
standing in December 1935 is an follows:
TAXATION AND PUBLIC EXPENDITURES COMMITTEE,
$21,000,000
Sinking-fund bonds
April 15, 1936.
97,000,000
Serial bonds
The concinsions and recommendations contained in the report of the subcom-
millee on serial bonds of the committee on taxation and public expenditures of
St. Louis, Mo., population 1930 consus, 821,960
the Philadelphia Chamber of Commerce, dated January 1927, hold true today.
We are, therefore, outlining in this memorandum the practices followed by cer-
The city of St. Louis has outstanding both types of bonds, sinking fund and
tale municipalities in the United States and in the State of Pennsylvania, other
serial. Until 1985 all sinking-fund bonds were dated 1923 and prior (hereto.
than the city of Philadelphia, with regard to the issuance of municipal bonds in
In 1935. however. the city issued approximately $2,500,000 par value of term
either term or serial form. For purposes of comparison throughout the United
bonds for refunding purposes. The approximate relative par value of each
The first 10 eltime of the country will serve to indicate the general practice and
States we feel That an examination of the form of debt outstanding In each of
type of bonds outstanding in December 1935 was as follows:
$3,700,000
trend, The first 10 eltles of the United States lo population are as follows: New
Sinklng-fund bonds
75,600,000
York City, N. Y.: Chiengo, TIL: Philadelphia, Pa, Detroit, Mich.; Los Angeles,
Serial bonds
Callf: Oleveland, Ohio; St. Louis, Mo.: Baltimore, Md.; Boston, Mass.; and
Pittsburgh, Pa.
Balthmore, Md., population 1930 сеняна, 804,874
New York City, N. Y,, pupulation 1930 census, 6,930,446
In December 1035, with the exception of approximately $800,000 par value
sinking-fund bonds, Issued in 1933 and 1984, the city of Baltimore had out-
and and aerial, The sinking fund, or term bonds, are known as "corporate stock"
The city of New York utilizes both forms of municipal bonds-ainking fund
standing approxhmately $58,000,000 par value term bonds, dated 1912, or prior
thereto, and approximately $130,000,000 par value perial bonds.
acter, ruch finance the cost of capital Improvements of a usually char-
Insured mature to within to years after date of Issue. Corporate stock Is
Boston, Mass., population 1930 cenaus, 781,188
to finance DE water, rapid-transit and dock properties. revenue-producing Serial bonds
Boston continues to utilize both types of municipal bonds, sinking fund and
unet not the Improvement financed, and the maximum must not exceed
the life of capital Improvements, and the final serial maturity are issued
serial. The approximate relative par value of each type outstanding to De
cember 1935 is shown below:
Dorato stock exceed in 50 years. As of January 1, 1935, there maturity In any case
$88,900.000
bends in the the amount of approximately $1,603,000,000 was par value, outstanding and serial cor-
Sinking-fund bonds
00,000,000
amount of approximately $442,000,000 par value
Serial bonds
Chicago, III, population 1920 CORRNA, 3,376,438
sinking-fund bonds outstan/ting, noted above, only approximately $19,000,000
It is Interesting to note, however, that of the approximate par value of
000,000 The city par-value of Chiengo had outstanding in December
pur value have been Issued since 1930.
bonds, The sinking-fund serial bonds, and approximately 1985 $32,000,000 approximately $208,-
Pittsburgh, Pd., population 1930 ccHaHa, 609,817
purpose bonds were Issued in 1933 and 1935 for sinking-fund refunding
In December 1935 the city of Pittsburgh proper had outstanding only serial
Philadelphia, Pa., population 1930 census, 1,950,961
Issues. There are certain small political subdivisions which have been Incor-
Of these assumed bonds approximately $1,000,000 par value are of sinking-fund Pitts-
porated within the city at various times and whose bonds the city has assumed.
8360,000,000 In December par-value 1005 the bonds, city all of of Philadelphia the sinking-fund had type. outstanding approximately
burgh type outstanding in December 1935 amounted to approximately $80,000,000
and are dated 1921 and prior thereto, serial bonds of the city of
par value.
The first 10 eftles in Pennsylvania In point of population are Philadelphia. Harris-
Pittsburgh, Scranton, Drie, Reading, Allentown, Wilkes-Barre, Altoona,
Regraded Unclassified
78
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
70
Imrg. and Johnstown. We have considered Philadelphia and Pittsburgh above
Practice of eight largest citize NI Pennsylvania (ercluding Philadelphia and
in the first 10 effles in the United States, so we will offinionte them from
Pittsburgh) as to UNIVERSITY of sinking fund OF verial honds
sideration Its Pennsylvania,
Appresimate number outstanding
Normation, Pd., population 1930 143,631
December 1937
Population
All of the bond Insure of the city of Seranton are in serial form,
City
come
Perment
Binking fund
seral
serial
Ricle, I'd., population, 1930 centua, 143,438
The eng of Erie has a total of $25,000 term bonds, will Issued to 1910. Time
143,433
(1)
100
Genastim
belance of approximately $7,500,000 par-value bonds are all in serial form,
115,967
$28,000
$7,600,000
95,85
Erie
111,171
150,000
6,730,000
97.85
Reading
92,563
2,00,000
2,400,000
03
Allentown
100
Reading, Pa, population, 1930 consus. 115,967
96,020
£
Wilker Barn
R2,054
2,200,000
1,500,000
31.02
Altoons
The city of Heading has a total of approximately $150,000 par-value Term
40,339
(1)
100
Harrisburg
66,093
1,000,000
2,300,000
76,74
bonds, Issued in 1912 and 1913. The balance of approximately $6,750,000 par
Johnstown
value of Donds are all In serial form,
All bonds
Allentown, Pa., population, 1930 centus, 92,562
The above figures are subject to comments in the attached report.
The city of Allentown has approximately $2,400,000 serial bonds and approxi-
mately 82,900,000 par value of term bonds, No sinking-fund bonds have been
STATEMENT OF M. L. SEIDMAN, NEW YORK CITY, CHAIRMAN,
Insted by the city of Allentown subsequent to 1929.
TAXATION COMMITTEE, NEW YORK BOARD OF TRADE, INC.
Wilker-Barre, Pa, population, 1930 сеняна, 86,626
The CHAIHMAN, Mr. Seidman, you are chairman of the taxation
All of the outstanding bonds of the city of Wilkes-Barre are In serial torm.
committee, New York Board of Trade!
Mr. SEIDMAN, Yes, sir.
Attorne, Pat., population, 1930 cenaus, 82,054
The CHAIRMAN. All right; you may proceed.
The only of Altoona has approximately $1,500,000 par value of serial bonds
Mr. SEIDMAN. Gentleman, this bill proposes, chiefly, an undis-
and approximately $3,200,000 par value of sinking-fund bonds,
tributed profits tax on corporations. In actual fact, it is not a tax
Harrisburg, PM. population. 1930 census, 80,339
at all that is proposed, but a penalty, leveled against corporations
who fail to distribute their entire net income to their stockholders.
All of the outstanding bonds of the city of Harrisburg are in serial form.
it is a fact that under this bill a corporation can retain 30 percent if
Senator LA FOLLETTE. How can you make that statement when
Johnstones, Pa., population, 1930 census, 66,993
it makes more than $10,000, if it is undistributed and pays less tax
dated bunds 1922 (if prior thereto, and approximately $3,300,000 put value of serial
The etty of Johnstown has approximately $1,000,000 par value of term bonds,
than it pays now, and the corporation that makes under $10,000 can
retain 40 percent?
in other individual cities, It is true that in Pennsylvania and throughout the
Without going further Into the division between sinking-fond and serial bonds
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is true: but inasmuch as a corporation is let
to go the extent that it does not distribute it is penalized. That
scot free if it distributes all of its income, and then necessarily, is the
lamie the rule.
United Mates as a whole the sinking-fund Issue is the exception and the serial
extent of statement.
Proctive of nine lovgest effice in the United States es to issurance of sinking-
Senator my LA FOLLETTE. Your statement is not a correct statement
Innd or serial bonds
concerning this bill, as I understand it.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I say if they distribute all of their income they free go
Approximate number outstanding
free. If they distribute all of their net income, they go scot of
City
Population
December 1035
of scot tax. If they do not, they must pay as much as 42½ percent the net
1990
their entire net income, or an equivalent of 73.9 percent of
Hinking fund
Serial
Percent
serial
income retained.
See York
Date
5,900,466
$1,000,000,000
$442,000,090
21.70
stockholder goes scot free. So somebody is going scot free any
Senator BARKLEY. If they do not distribute anything, then in the
Philosophia
Las A -
32,000,000
1,031,961
208,000,000
66.67
260,000,000
4t. Less
1,218,048
900,429
€
100
event. Mr. SEIDMAN. If they do not distribute anything, there will be no
Baltimes
21,000,000
Boxin
821,960
97,000,000
82.20
2,700,000
804,874
75,500,000
05.00
dividends to the stockholders to be taxed.
58,800,000
781,188
130,000,000
G6.85
58,900,000
609,817
90,000,000
50.31
1,000,000
00,000,000
Senator SEIDMAN. BARKLEY. I say Sure. this, gentlemen, that they are charging capital. n. busi-
Oa osil Printical abdividuess whom bonds the city proper has assumed,
All bonds,
That ness is an percent outrage under any tax system and under
Mr. 73.9 for the right to retain its own working whatever name
report.) (Detrois unitted from above list because of situation described in enclosed
the tax is imposed.
The there Agures the subject to comments in the attached report.
Regraded
80
REVENUE ACT, 1986
REVENUE ACT, 1936
81
Senator LA FOLLETTE You do not think, do you, that the stock.
holders have any right to any earnings?
be overcome by A carefully thought ont bill. Such a bill, however,
Mr. SHOMAN. I certainly do. I think it has been demonstrated
cannot be horn in louste, ик, in fact, the bill before YES has booth In
this morning that the stockholders have received earnings to pay an
my opinion, this subject cannot possibly be dealt with adequately
excess profits tax.
by the present Congress during an election year. 1 will, neverthe-
Senator BLACK. Do you think it is an outrage for an individual to
less, direct my remarks to some of the specific provisions of the bill,
pay 75.9 percent if he makes that much profit?
on the assuription that this Congress is going to enset an undia-
Mr. SEIDMAN, I certainly do.
tributed-profite tax and that we might just as well get the best pos-
brackets? Senator BLACK. So you are opposed to the income tax in the high
sible bill under the circumstances.
In directing my criticism to this proposed bill, you gentlemen may
Mr. SEDMAN. I think it defents itself.
be interested to know that I am not antagonistic to the theory of
Senator LA FOLLETTE. This is one of the loopholes we want to plug
an undistributed-profits tax. As II theory, there is much to commend
up so it will not defent itself.
it. But for the plan to have a chance for n. successful career, it must
Mr. SEMMAN. Gentlemen, may 1 have the privilege of making the
be initiated under conditions very much more favorable than those
statement completely, and then 1 will be delighted to answer the
existing today. It must also be entered into with the clear under-
different questions!
standing that the plan is a highly experimental venture and that it
Senator BLACK. Did you place in the record your business?
will call for some very delicate adjustments in our economics in the
Mr. SEIDMAN. I am a certified public accountant,
process of shifting from one method of taxation to the other.
Senator BLACK. You appear in your own capacity?
In any event, the plan will be doomed to failure, and to be the
Mr. SEDMAN. I appear as the chairman of the tax committee of
cause of some serious dislocations, if it attempts to penalize corpo-
the New York Board of Trade, and not in my individual capacity
rations too severely for the privilege of retaining necessary working
at all.
capital and reasonable reserves. Likewise is it bound to meet with
them voluntarily?
Senator BLACK. Are you employed by them or simply representing
failure if tax rates imposed upon the income of individual stock-
holders are 80 high as to discourage the continuance of investment in
Mr. SEIDMAN. I am chairman of their tax committee and a mem-
productive enterprises. As long as tax-exempt securities are avail-
directors. ber of their executive committee and it member of the board of
able to investors having large taxable incomes, any scheme calcu-
lated to force corporations to distribute earnings for the sole pur-
Senator BLACK. You are not employed by them?
pose of adding to the stockholders' taxable income means so much
Mr. SEIDMAN, I am not employed by them.
additional pressure against such investors to escape taxation alto-
accountants? Senator BARKLEY. Are you is member of a firm of certified public
gether by converting their investments into tax-exempt securities.
Senator BARKLEY. Why do you specialize on this administration!
Mr. SEIDMAN, Yes, sir,
All administrations have done that, haven't they! Why specialize
Senator BARKLEY. What is that firm?
on this one?
Gentlemen, Mr. SEIDMAN. Seidman & Seidman, New York City,
Mr. SEIDMAN. I do not think we have realized the seriousness of
000, posed in will abandon an assured revenue totaling pro-
bill. It there is just one thing definitely known about the
the tax-exempt security and the damage that it causes until very
entirely exchange for something which is highly speculative $1,132,000,- and
recently. Senator BARRLEY. We cannot deal with that question now, because
Chared theory from of n. corporate undistributed profits tax has
The conjectural in its revenue-producing possibilities.
in all likelihood it would require constitutional amendment to tax
all tax-exempt securities.
however, and time to time for many years. Never in been dis-
Mr. SEIDMAN. If it. does, then the quicker we get it started the
test of seldom anywhere else, has this theory this country,
taken tax almost corporate profits and dividends present
system of actual, taxing practical experience. As against this, been our put to the
better. Senator KING. Mr. Witness, I doubt very much if you are includ-
ing State tax-exempt securities and other political subdivisions. I
fected by numerous a quarter of a century to evolve. is Tt one has which has
doubt very much whether the people of the States would be willing
fied by thousands of congressional enactments, and it has been been per-
to have the Federal Government tax their securities, but the Federal
like the rulings and judicial clari-
Government may tax its own.
spending present, so much when more the need for revenue interpretations. is so when At we n time
Senator BARKLEY. It now taxes them on surtax, Senator. There
in recuperating than what great, are
is already a surtax on them.
industry is so sensitive from the to worst every depression We are in taking our history, in, when and business when
Mr. SEIDMAN. On some of them: yes. I say a move of that kind
would be more convincing than almost anything else that has been
a a against wilderness?
possibly for what afford is to gamble such a vast into disturbing sum the of influence, known public how revenue can we
said or done to reform the tax system. I think that is one of the
most serious evils in the tax systems.
Senator BARKLEY. I suppose it is not worth while spending time
I that many the of basic such objections theory of can the
on it, but have you ever figured that if you tax all of these public
securities, like the bonds of States, counties, and cities, and the
Regraded Unclassified
2
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1930
83
United States, which bears a low rate of interest because of their
sheet, be seldom represented by cash or its equivalent, Quite to the
montaxable character, that the interest rates would be ruised and that
contrary, such surpluses are usually tied up in plant, equipment, and
the people would have to pay more interest on their public obliga-
merchandise inventory.
tions It would be the same ns taking money ONE of one pocket and
It is a well-known fact that the only way in which some businesses
putting it into another.
can obtain additional funds is by reinvestment of their earnings.
Senator KING, And furthermore, the bonds would sell for loss,
Even to the large, well-financed corporation which has managed to
Mr. SEIDMAN, Gentlemen, there is no question but what that in
back its surplus by cash and liquid assets this plan will tend to die
absolutely correct, and yet I say a tax-exempt system of any kind
Ima no place in a republic.
courage the draining of existing reserves. For they will know full
well that such reserves cannot be rebuilt through the avenue of earn-
The CHAIRMAN. And we all very much agree with you:
Senator LONERGAN. If it will give the withess any moral support,
ings. The freezing of such reserves is bound to have the exact oppo-
I will any that I am in hearty accord with his views.
site effect to what was intended. Instead of corporate reserves being
Mr. SEIDMAN. The maximum normal and surtax rates now total 70
spent, thereby creating employment for the unemployed, they will be
frozen in the fear that they are not replaceable.
percent. In addition, there is usually a substantial State income
It is this very liquid capital that has been most severely depleted
lax to be reckoned with. There is thus almost complete confiscation
of income in the top brackets. The only haven for the taxpayer in
during the depression. That is the part of a company's financial strue-
ture that must be rebuilt if ever we are to be on the road to full Pe-
that position in the tax-exempt security, It is useless to impose any
such tax rates and expect to collect them to any substantial extent as
covery. Yet here is the very point where the undistributed profits
long ID that avenue of escape exists, The proposal to eliminate tax-
tax will make recoupment of accumulated losses impossible, or at
exempt securities has been made to the Congress almost annually. but
least so costly as to appear undesirable,
always it has been sidetracked. It would seem that the lenst that
Because of the penalty against the small and underfinanced cor-
pouring out additional billions of dollars in tax-exempt securities.
should be done in that regard is for this administration to stop
poration, there is bound to ensue a wholesale shifting in the method
of doing business from the corporate to the partnership form. There
That would be more convincing evidence of good statesmanship than
will thus be lost to the small business the advantages accruing to its
system. adviced anything else that has been said or done to reform our tax
larger competitors who conduct their businesses in corporate form.
There would certainly seem to be something dead wrong with our
For the year 1936 it is estimated that 247,000 corporations will
process of reasoning when we profess to fear control by "big business"
report taxable income. Of these, some 214,000 will have net. incomes
and yet legislate to Iceep big businesses big. That is exactly what
of less than $10,000. The remaining 38,000 will have incomes in
this proposed plan will do. For even the corporation with IL $10,000
excess of $10,000, Thus, about 87 percent of our corporations are
income will have to pay a tax equal to 42 percent of the amount of
just comparatively about small enterprises, In the main, they have perhaps
income retained. In other words, if it has $100 of income, it will
working capital in supplemented by the usual credit carry facilities on, of
enough working capital with which to if such
have to pay out $42 to the Government.
Senator KING. You mean net income?
commercial ranges banks, As to the larger businesses, their financial set-up
Mr. SEIDMAN. Net income.
Many perhaps from bare insolvency to extreme liquidity.
Senator GEORGE. That is where it keeps it all.
of the largest and strongest of these companies have
Mr. SEIDMAN. No small businées ean survive any such cost for its
Inted to avoid enormous the liquid reserves. They are in the best possible accumu-
working capital. We recommend therefore that the proposed rates
their payment of a penalty tax for failing to distribute position
in order to be workable and effective be substantially reduced. Also
posed current plan it income in dividends. It thus appears that under the all of
that they be simplified into a single schedule. This can be readily
extreme positive assurance of going scot free of companies have
the most is the largest and most successful that pro-
accomplished by allowing smaller corporations IL (ax exemption on
the first $2,000 of income.
companies current income will be utterly impossible. of any part
of their are the corporations for whom the distribution tax. At the other
I think that would simplify the whole complicated rate-schedule
of severe whose reserves have been seriously depleted These 6 are the
structure. In the matter of taxing the stockholder, it in generally conceded
the payment operating losses. It is they who by years
that a tax on the corporation is in effect a tax on the stockholder. In
Senntor of the penalty tax but least are most entitled to avoid
that regard, Chairman Robert L. Doughton, of the House Ways and
Mr. SEIDMAN, GRORGE Yes, We sir. make I some allowance are likely here for to depleted be able to capital. do so,
Means Committee, recently stated in part. as follows:
The carrings withhe'd by corporations add no less to the wealth of the
companies other In extreme who who can distribute cannot distribute am referring income. to those I have companies covered at the the
shareholder than the earnings distributed in dividends: for the relivestment
of corporate earnings becomes reflected In the stockholder's share of the net
Home referring companies to have depleted no reserves, income. I do not
worth of the coropration and In increased enening power.
substantial then understand surpluses over surpluses. and above Their balance necessarily sheets might mean show that
Also-
To the extent that corporations do not distruise their current earnings, the
that a corporation's surplus, paid-in as capital. shown by But its business- balance
additional revenues will be obtained from bigtier corporation Income taxes cor-
responding as near IN may be on the average 191 the rntes that would have been
by their shareholders If corporate earnings were fully distributed.
Regraded Unclassified
84
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1930
85
The point he in trying to make here is we ought to tax is corpora-
lion that does not distribute at about the same average tax rate as
Mr. The answer 10 that question directly in the stock-
the normal and surtax would be imposed against the individual
holder pays the tax either directly OF indirectly.
stockholder if the distribution were in fact made,
Senator BLACK. Who pays jet Ont of what fund does it come?
With this as the background for the tax and the rate on undis.
Mr. SHIOMAN. It COMMIN out of the corporation's usets, of course.
tributed profits, one would suppose that oneo the corporation has
Senator BLACK. The first $50,000 is held in reserve, it in put. into
paid a tax equivalent in amount to both the normal and surtax roles
the corporate fund. Who pays the tax on the $50,000 that is dis-
on individuals, such tax-paid income, if thereafter distributed, would
tributed!
be tax free in the hands of the shareholder. How great is the shock,
Mr. SEIDMAN. The stockholders.
therefore, to find it proposed that such income be again taxed in the
Senator BLACK. Do you find any double taxation in that particular
hands of the stockholders; and not alone for surtax purposes as
instance!
heretofore, hut. for normal tax purposes as well.
Mr. SEIDAN. No; but you have got-
Here is a rank inequality in taxing business profits. It certainly
Senator BLACK (interrupting). That is the whole plan.
Mr. SEIDMAN You have an illustration there of a single corpora-
runs counter to one of the avowed purposes of the law which in the
words of the President himself, seeks "n fairer distribution of the
tion that has had $100,000 of its income taxed.
tax load among all the beneficial owners of business profits, whether
Senator BLACK. You stated that this bill provides for double taxa-
derived from unincorporated enterprises or from incorporated busi-
tion. The bill provides for the part of the profits reserved that the
and whether distributed to the real owners as earned or with-
taxes are to be paid by the corporation, and for the part of the profits
held from them."
that is paid out by the corporation the taxes on that shall be paid by
Why is not that a proper and fair thing to do if equity is what we
the person to whom it is distributed. Do you call that double taxa-
welk in taxing businesses alike?
tion?
Senator LONEBGAN. I would like to ask a question at that point of
Mr. SEIDMAN. I said double taxation appears only at this point:
one of the Treasury experts about the double taxation. Suppose a
Where the corporation, to simplify the example, retains all its earn-
corporation invests part of its funds in the stock of another eor-
ings, it pays the avorage surtax rate for every dollar of its earnings
the poration that has already paid its tax on the earnings of the stock,
as if it were, in fact, distributed to the stockholders, and if ever in
ownership would have to pay a tax on that, would it not?
the future that profit is distributed to stockholders they again are
Mr. TURNEY. Those dividends received went into their net income
called upon to pay both the normal tax and the surtex. I say that
the RaThe AM any other net income and the tax depends on what the
is wrong: that is double taxation of the worst kind.
receiving Senstor corporation does in the way of dividend payment.
This double taxation of income also emphasizes the fact that sev-
LONERGAN. I would like to ask the witness
eral hundred million dollars of revenue estimated to be produced by
that point. Do you regard that as double taxation? a I question much on
this bill will come about only 118 a result of taxing twice income that
stock regret in that I did not follow you, Supposing corporation very À
has heretofore been taxed only once.
of them, corporations B, C, D, E. F. and G. and down the owns 25
Why should a stockholder in n. small and poorly financed corpo-
Government and all of those corporations have paid to the line,
ration, having suffered his share of tax through direct payment by
as a a tax, and corporation A has invested in those United States
the corporation, be again required to pay a tax on the same income
reserves, means of finding IL safe place to invest for the building securities
when he comes into actual possession of his share of what is left of
the my question is Is it fair for corporation A to a tax up on of
it after the corporation has paid the taxi If such distributions are
Mr. earnings of those investments? Is that double pay
to be again subjected to tax as is proposed, why is not the shareholder
SEIDMAN. and It certainly is if the corporations taxation?
at least entitled to is credit against his tax for his pro-rata share of
and pendently it in taxed then again. we just distributed to the upper holding were taxed company indo-
the tax paid by the corporation on what is left of the very same
income?
Senator LONERGAN. Yes,
That is the system England has employed for many years, and,
Senator Mr. SEDMAN. BLACK, That is the worst possible double
as a matter of equity and fairness, should be pursued here if income-
eided to keep Suppose a corporation makes taxation.
tax laws are not to completely topple over by the very weight of their
it not? $50,000 in reserve; it pays a tax on $100,000 that $50,000, and it does de-
own inequities. Such a plan as is here proposed must eventually
work its own destruction. The quicker that is understood, the better
tained
Mr. $50,000 SEIDMAN, in The reserve ! corporation has earned $100,000 and has re-
for all concerned.
Senator BLACK.
It may be contended that such tax duplication is justified by the
Government's fiscal needs, Let us then remember that no tax pro-
Mr. about remaining the first $50,000? $50,000. Who pays
a the
gram will catch up with the policy of spending $2 for every $1 taken
in. But, if such revenue must be raised through the income tax, let
it be raised by a broadening of the tax base, through an increase in
Senator SEHOMAN. Under the plan
the normal tax and a lowering of the tax exemptions, so As to directly
BLACK. Who pays the here? tax on that
include a large number of our people who are today paying huge
taxes in disguised form, concealed in the price of the things they buy,
Regraded Unclassified
86
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 19.50
87
Such a broadening of the tax base should be designed deliberately
group must necessarily be offset against the profit of another before
to bring home to our people the cust of our enormons Government
true income III arrived at. For many years our income-tax Inws did
spending which they, the people, must ultimately pay for.
in fact recognize this truth and permitted the filing of vonsolidated
May I call your attention to section 102, subdivision (e), of the
returns by affiliated companies. But, when our Government's fiscal
proposed law, which reads as follows:
needs began to overshadow the element of equity and fairness in our
(e) Payment of surling will provide shares.-The tax imposed by Hile section
tax laws, the consolidated return was thrown overboard. Such an
shall not apply If all the sharefulders of the corporation Include (&t the time
inequity may be bearable under an arrangement where a corporation
of filing their returns) in thele ghose Income their entire pro-rata shares,
is subjected to an income tax of from 12½ percent to IS percent BN in
whether distributed or not of the refated net Income of the corporation for
now the case, but it will certainly be intolerable under any such plan
such year. Any amount NO included in the gross Income of a shareholder shall
be trvated as II dividend received. Any enbsequent distribution made by the
as would tax retained corporate income at ratex running up as high
corporation out of earnings or proûts for such taxable year shall, If distributed
as 73.9 percent.
to any shurcholder who has ao Included in his grows Income his pro-esta share,
The same comments could well apply to the treatment of capital
be exempt. from tax in the amount of the share so included,
losses. At present capital gains are taxable, but capital losses in ex-
Here is an excellent provision in connection with surtax evasion
cess of such gains are limited in deductibility to a $2,000 maximum.
and an excellent example of how cash distributions can be made un-
When a business is to be taxed at anything like the proposed rates
Decemary and how tax duplication can be avoided. Why can't a
on its entire net income, including capital gains, the very least to be
similar provision be made to extend to the treatment of the undis-
expected is that the tax be imposed on true net income after all legiti-
tributed profits tax! This would give to the stockholders of the
mate business losses are deducted.
corporation a simple means of being taxed individually on their pro-
For the same reasons, losses of one year should be permitted B8 is
rata share of corporate income, without making it necessary for the
carry-over deduction against the profits of at least the two succeeding
corporation to actually distribute the income in cash or its equivalent.
years. We have learned by sad experience that profits and losses have
Buch is provision would simplify the entire problem of distribution
their peaks and valleys. If no extremely high rate of tax is to be im-
and would enable the vast majority of corporations to be treated as
posed against profits of 1 year, it is only fair and just that the losses
partnerships for tax purposes, and thus would more nearly accom-
of the immediately preceding years be given some consideration in
plish equality in the taxation of business profits. Perhaps, us many
determining the tax liability.
provision. as 9 out of every 10 corporations could take advantage of such &
Permit me also to direct your attention to section 27, subdivision
(j) of the proposed law on the subject of intercorporate dividends.
The CHAIRMAN, Have you estimated the loss to the Government
This provides that corporations. 80 percent or more of whose gross
by extending that as you have suggested in revenue?
income is derived from dividends, shall, in figuring their undistrib-
Mr. Suidman. I haven't estimated the loss, but I say you haven't
uted-profits tax, be deprived of 50, much of the dividend credit as is
done it: and what is more, you have aggravated the situation,
equal to the amount of income accruing to a corporate shareholder
have, to some extent. a duplication of taxation in the present law. you
owning 50 percent or more of the taxpayer's stock. In effect, what
The tax distribution is for normal purposes.
this means is that even if such a company distributes every dollar of
The CHAIRMAN, That would come back to the same proposition.
its income, it may nevertheless have to pay 421/2 percent of its income
Certain figure reserve held by the corporation must be tax Do
in undistributed-profits tax.
tax that whatever reserve is retained by a corporation exempt. should you be
Imposing such a tax on the earnings of a subsidiary company with-
exempt until it is distributed?
in a corporate structure means certain death to the subsidiary. Last
last free to the label that income tax free whenever it is pay distributed, tax it. on that.
Mr. then SEDMAN. No. I say let the corporation the
year this Congress was engaged in IL desperately fought controversy
over a so-called death sentence proposed against certain public-utility
section 1 OF 2. stockholder. That is exactly what you have done is tax- in
holding companies. Following many months of consideration and
burden If all the stockholders of a corporation, in
discussion of the subject, the proposal was defeated. Yet here, in
this law is proposed a virtual death sentence not alone against public-
own tax returns pick up every dollar of the company's working capital.
the willing of the to company and in order to conserve order its to ense the tax
utility holding companies but against all holding companies of the
nature here described. The proposal comes out of a clear sky, with-
van hope to collect should have no complaint. That is all rates,
Government and pay a tax on it at normal and surtax income in their the
out any notice whatsoever to these companies. It was not even men-
tioned when the Ways and Means Committee held its public hearings
from the more prosperous the Government
on this bill.
THE THE tax, their current income companies, and thus escape who are paying in a
Presumably there are many instances in which the corporate struc-
ture can and should be simplified. Our laws in the past encouraged
Yet We present all know revenue that net does not permit should corporations receive to consideration.
defects in the bill
such complicated structures. On the other band, there must be nu-
merous instances in which corporate structures of this nature are
(IF more where a business unit file returns.
necessary and invaluable in the conduct of large businesses. This
Del income corporations for that it is the consolidated net is conducted income that through is two
is certainly true where business operations extend into many States
business, The loss of one corporation the in true the
and are thus subject to many State laws.
Regraded Unclassified
88
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1916
89
Senator KING. And where it extends into other countries, such as
The CHAIMAN. This is not the first time you have appeared
Chile and Mexico, where you carriot conduct business there AM. au
before the committee in connection with tay laws, is it, Mr. Seidman
American corporation, you have to organize n Chilean corporation
Mr. SHIDMAN, No, Mr. Chairman: it las been my pleasure to
and place all of your stock with the Government before you can get
a charter, and you must organize a corporation in Mexico and place
appear here time and again.
The CHAIRMAN. Have you ever appeared before ns when a. tax
your stock there; BD that if you and I should organize a company
bill was under consideration and advocated its passage?
here, such as 4b mining company, and decide to branch out into Mexico
Mr. SEDMAN. I did not got your question, Mr. Chairman
and Chile, we would have to organize a company in Chile and another
The CHAIRMAN. I thought your language today seemed very much
in Mexico; we would be the holding company, and Mexico and Chile
would tax very heavily, and any dividends that would come back to
like the language you have spoken before the committee when we
have had other tax bills up for consideration, and I asked the ques-
thing left.
the holding company, I was wondering whether there would be any-
tion whether you have ever appeared and asked for the passage of
Mr. SEIDMAN. There may be thousands of instances which require
any tax bill.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I have always tried to make constructive sug-
these subsidiary companies to be formed in which they have been
formed: yet we are about to put them to death,
gestions.
Senator KING. They have to organize these companies in order to
Senator BLACK. Have you ever favored any tax bill proposed
do business.
here?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Of course.
Mr. SEIDMAN. The New York Board of Trade—
Assuming, however, that the elimination of all such corporations
Senator BLACK. Which one have you favored!
Mr. SEIDMAN. The New York Board of Trade has always favored
there is surely no occasion for any such strong-arm methods BR are
is desirable, and that it is the Government's business to BO legislate,
a sales tax. The New York Board of Trade is for a sales tax na
proposed in this law. I submit that if such holding companies are
a means of raising revenue.
to be penalized for living, they ought to at least be given B. fair trial
Senator BLACK. You have appeared here for how many years in
and an opportunity to justify their existence before they are
connection with tax bills!
marily condemned. If they cannot do so, then and only then should sum-
Mr. SEIDMAN. Fifteen years, at least.
they be forced to go into liquidation by a certain, reasonably far-
Senator BLACK. Have you ever favored any bill that was pro-
removed date in the future.
posed, and, if so, which one?
The law is chock full of nonconstrued provisions, which
Mr. SEIDMAN. Whenever I appeared as an individual I was defi-
to canse litigation for many years to come. It has been dubbed are "the sure
nitely for or against-
and its complicated piece of legislation in 50 years." Its intricacies
Senator BLACK. Have you ever appeared as an individual?
the controversial provisions are bound to have serious effect
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes, sir: perhaps as far back as 1921, in connection
munity. productivity of the tax and the temper of the business upon com-
with the 1921 Revenue Act.
Senator BLACK. Did you favor that net?
Simplification and is possible only by further detailed discus-
Mr. SEIDMAN. I favored-there was a question there
tax sion, consideration. To enact such revolutionary study,
Senator BLACK. Is that one you favored!
Business system without ample and mature consideration changes in our
Mr. SEIDMAN. There were many provisions that I favored.
changing of is worried over the uncertainty produced is unthinkable. the
Senator BLACK. Has there ever been n. bill on which you came down
made after our tax laws. Changes of tremendous by constant
here and testified in favor of; I would like to know that so that I
changed 6 much bickering and controversy, importance are
could read the evidence.
ments have months or a year later, often before only the to be again
Mr. SEUMAN. Mr. Senator, no bill is ever presented in such form
Last been given IN chance to their earlier enact-
that you can favor all of it or none of it; there are provisions you
tax bill. summer The Congress and business sweated prove for own worthiness.
are either for or against. This bill, itself, I have not criticized-
the principle of most taxing bitterly corporate fought provision of that many bill weeks involved on a
Senator BLACK. Are you in favor of the repeal of the excess-profits
tax?
now fato It 6 goes months out the or a window year hence, for something "bigness" which as such. may suffer That provision the same
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator BLACK. Were you opposed to the amendment which the
Inx business laws in the that incertainty makes for and n. lag tinreliability in of our constantly changing
Senate and House passed which attempted to plug up the loopholes?
Mr. SEIDMAN. I was in favor of it. I appeared for the New York
THE Rore to radical normaley. changes in our sure tax since proposed laws, we confidence the are enactment bill right and embodies before for of delay we the some make sixteenth in of return any the
Board of Trade
Senator BLACK. Where did you testify in favor of it?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Four or five years ago,
Senator BLACK. Four or five years ago-you were here in 1934
Thank you, gentlemen.
Mr. SEIDMAN. The 1932 was the Revenue Act which attempted to
button up loopholes.
05452-pt. :-
Regraded Unclassified
90
REVENUE дот, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
91
Senator BLACK. In 1934 and 1985, when the committee had its
hearings, do you recall testifying against that bill?
Senator Black. The Chase National Bank?
Mr. SEIDMAN. I know I testified in favor of closing up loopholes.
Mr. SPIDMAN. I believe it does.
Senator BLACK. You appeared this morning favoring the idea of
Senator BLACK. Do you know whether or not the Electric Bond &
taxation of undistributed profits. I understood in one statement
Share belongs to it?
The CHAIRMAN. He only approved in a general way the principle
Mr. SEIDMAN. I do not think so,
and facility of the thing.
Senator BLACK. You do not think sof
Senator KING. He approved the theory but is against the practice.
Mr. SEIDMAN. No, sir.
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes.
Senator BLACK. Do you know whether or not any of its associates
Senator BLACK. In other words, you think you have not had time
belong to it!
in which to work all of that out?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Quite likely.
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes, sir.
Senator Black. Do you do work for any of the companies I have
Senator BLACK. You think it takes more time?
mentioned?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I do not,
Senator BLACK. Have you ever read Mr. Jeremy Bentham's Cur-
Senator BLACK. Does your firm do work for them?
rent Fullacies of Anti-Reformers!
Mr. SEIDMAN. My firm does not.
Mr. SEIDMAN. No, sir.
Senator BLACK. Is it engaged in independent accounting?
Senator BLACK. I would appreciate it if you would read the speech
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes, sir.
of Mr. Noodles that appears in that discourse in an interpretation of
Senator BLACK. And you have appeared here each time for the
Mr. Sydney Smith of Bentham's Fallacies. I think if you will read
New York Board of Trade, and still nobody has paid you for your
that you will recall some of the arguments that you have made here
appearance at all?
this morning-
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is correct.
Senator BLACK. In each instance?
1 favor the philosophy and theory, but this Is not the proper time.
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I would appreciate reading it.
Senator BLACK. And you appear voluntarily as a citizen?
Senator BLACK. I am sure you will enjoy it.
Mr. SEIDMAN. That is right.
Mr. SEIDMAN. The point, gentlemen, is not so much the time, but it
Senator BLACK. What is the name of your company?
will not work with tax-exempt securities and 75-percent surtax.
Mr. SEJOMAN, Seidman & Seidman, certified accountants,
Senator BLACK. You favor it, but this is not the proper time; you
Senator BLACK. Where is its office!
think We have not studied it long enough and that there are certain
Mr. SEIDMAN. New York City, head office.
things that make it impossible to put it into effect?
Senator BLACK. At what place!
Mr. SEIDMAN. It would be a good thing to make sure the ratés are
Mr. SEIDMAN. New York City,
HAY reasonable the thing can work, but it is handicapped
Senator BLACK. What place in New York City!
Senator BLACK. I understood you also were very fearful it would
Mr. SEIDMAN. The street number!
hinder the small corporations.
Senator BLACK. Yes.
Mr. SKIDMAN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SEIDMAN. 80 Broad Street.
cistion Senator BLACK. Do you have a list of the contributors to the
Senator BLACK. Is that an office building?
ization you works represent for as and public the accountants? names of the companies that your organ- asso-
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes.
Senator BLACK. What?
Mr. SEIDMAN. Contributors to what?
Mr. Senator BLACK. To the New York Board of
Mr. SEIDMAN. The Maritime Exchange Building.
Senator BLACK. What is the number?
Senator SEIDMAN. You mean the membership of the Trade.
Mr. SEIDMAN. 80 Broad Street.
organization?
BLACK, Are there any large companies that association! belong to that
Senator BLACK. What is the number of the office?
Mr. SEIDMAN. The room number?
Trade Mr. SEIDMAN. is May I say, Mr. Senator, that the Board of
Senator BLACK. Yes.
Senator made BLACK. up of What large large companies and small companies. New York
Mr. SEIDMAN. Two thousand six hundred.
Mr. Senator SEIDMAN, The small companies companies?
Senator BLACK. And who else is in your firm?
Mr. SEDMAN. Just three brothers.
measure with BLACK. which What belong large to it? companies predominate. have you discussed the tax
Senator BLACK. Three brothers?
Schator Mr. SEIDMAN. BLACK. Yes, Does sir. the Guaranty cannot Trust Co. belong to it?
Mr. SEDMAN, In the first place, I
Mr. SHIDMAN. Yes.
Senator BLACK. Have they appeared, also? Did you appear in
connection with the holding company bill?
Senator Mr. Subman, BLACK. Yes, Does sir. the City National Bank belong to it!
Mr. SEIDMAN. No. sir.
Senator BLACK. You took no part in it?
Mr. SEJOMAN, No, sir.
Regraded Unclassified
92
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
93
Senator BLACK. Have you appeared in connection with any Other
legislation except tax legislation?
Mr. SPRINGFIL Mr. Chairman, for the purpose of the record, my
Mr. SEHMAX. No, sir: only tax legislation.
name is Durand W. Springer, secretary of the American Society of
Senator BLACK. You have appeared on that ever since 19217
Certified Public Accountants, and in presenting Dr. Klein as our
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes, sir.
representative I want to say for the benefit of you who may not
Senator BLACK. And that was the first time?
know it that at one time he WILH the (ax editor of the New York
Mr. SEIDMAN. I believe so,
Globe and professor of taxation in the City College of New York,
Senator BLACK. You have appeared at each session since then?
an author of a. very much read book on income taxation,
Mr. SEIDMAN. Yes.
He has been president of the New York State Society of Certified
Senator BLACK. And that has been wholly on your own accord
Public Accountants, and is now acting in the capacity of chairman
of our committee on Federal legislation. The report which you have
and nobody has asked you to do it?
Mr. SRIDMAN. Of course, what I have discussed here is the work
before you gives the names of the committeemen on this committee
and their residences.
of the committee on taxation of the New York Board of Trade,
We had a meeting of our board of directors here on Monday and
passed upon by the executive committee.
Tuesday of this week, at which the points he will present were dis-
Senator BLACK. Who else is on that committee?
cussed and approved, so that what he will say to you will come as
Mr. SEIDMAN. Well, there is Mr. Eggleston, of Young & Co., New
the result of conferences in which 22 States have been represented
York.
Senator BLACK. What business are they in?
by the two.
Mr. SEIDMAN. Art dealers.
I might merely add one other statement, that if we were to come
Senator BLACK. Who else!
to you with any desire to take advantage of a possible opportunity
for profitable gain, there would be nothing better that we could do
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. James Rowe, a retired businessman; Mr. George
than to urge that you pass the bill 0.8 it is, because certainly it would
Seamon, of the Hayden Chemical Co.; and three or four others,
increase the volume of practice which the independent accountants
Senator BLACK. Do you know the others?
would have during the succeeding year.
Mr. SEIDMAN. Mr. Griffith, an officer of the New York Board of
Trade; Mr. Blair, of the Chemical Bank.
Dr. Klein will now make his statement to you.
Senator BLACK. The Chemical Bank & Trust Co.!
STATEMENT OF JOSEPH J. KLEIN, NEW YORK CITY, CHAIRMAN
Mr. SEIDMAN. Of New York. I believe that is about all; there are
OF THE COMMITTEE ON FEDERAL LEGISLATION OF THE
six or seven.
AMERICAN SOCIETY OF CERTIFIED PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS
Senator BLACK. You do not remember any others?
Mr. SEIDMAN. There may be one or two others.
Senator BLACK. But you do not remember them?
The CHAIRMAN. Doctor, you have a memorandum here, and sup-
Mr. SEDMAN. No.
pose we put that in the record, and that within 20 minutes you pick
The CHAIRMAN, Is Mr. Gilman a member?
out the salient things you want to tell the committee, because we have
Mr. SEDMAN. No, sir.
a great number of witnesses here.
The CHAIRMAN. Is Mr. Gimble!
Dr. KLEIN. I sympathize with you, Mr. Chairman, and after the
Mr. SEDMAN. No, sir.
first 3 minutes whenever you feel I am not constructively useful,
The CHAIRMAN. Are Gimble Bros. members of the board of tradel
sound your gavel and I will quit.
Mr. SEIDMAN. I believe they are.
The CHAIRMAN. That is all right; you just get through as quickly
papers this morning?
The CHAIRMAN, Did you read the statement of Mr. Gimble in the
as you can and we will put this brief in the record.
Dr. KLEIN. First of all, I shall not say anything more about the
Mr. SEIDMAN, No, sir.
simplicity or the complexity of this bill. You indicated, I think, Mr.
The CHAIRMAN. You should read it; it is a good statement.
Chairman, during the course of this morning's discussion, that the
Senator BABSTEY. Do you favor the sales tax as n. substitute for all
bill when it finally emerges may be decidedly and fundamentally
income tax?
different from what it now appears to be.
Mr. SEIDMAN. No, sir; as a supplement,
The CHAIRMAN. I do not know whether I said that,
The CHAIRMAN. The committee will recess until 2 o'clock.
Dr. KLEIN. If not, sir, then the cruel punishment that might be
(Whereupon, at 1:05, the committee took 11. recess until 2 p. m.)
meted out to the members of this committee, and I here recall the pro-
cedure of the college of cardinals, no crueler punishment should be
meted out in behalf of those who vote for the bill in its present form
AFTERNOON SESSION
than placing themselves without food until they solved a simple
recess. The committee reconvened at 2 p. m., pursuant to the taking of the
problem which I have prepared to submit for such purposes.
One other matter regarding the simplicity I think I ought to
Klein, The I CHAIRMAN. The committee will please
touch upon: I thing the bill has been unfairly criticized after a super-
a word to believe, sayl is to be the next witness. Mr. Springer, come to do order. you have Mr.
ficial reading of it, because of the presence of four tables, and refer-
Regraded Unclassified
IN
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVESUE ACT, 1936
95
ence in schedule 8 to the use of Phose tables, for corporations with
incomes between 10 and 40 thousand dollars per year.
change Commission can give you those Rgures if you are interested
Table I and table 2, na distinguisbed from table 1-A and 2-A
in them.
I know how difficult it in in practice to ascertain the profits result-
are attorly and totally useless and redundant, impractical of appli-
cation, and unnecessary. Firmly I believe if those two tables were
ing from such sales, but it in not an insurmomtable difficult task,
efiminated the bill would not appear to be as formidable and forebod.
because by imposing IL fint tax the same as on other income applying
ing as it DOW appears to be.
to foreigners, predicated on the arbitrary assumption of saying that
The CHAIRMAN. I made a statement calling on the experts to free
25 percent of the selling price represents profit, with full opportunity
whether or not they could work out something in the way of eliminat-
to the person involved to prove what the true profit was, I think
some unnecessary losses will be avoided.
lug some of those tables and put it in one, if possible.
I am not prepared to say exactly how much additional revenue
Dr. KLEIN. Some of the suggestions I will make ought to be of help
must be raised, but I read this morning the statement of the Sec-
to those experts, and I want to tell you there are some very commend-
retary before this honorable body of yesterday, and 1 read bis cont-
able features in the bill, and perhaps I may list them quickly.
ment that in assuming revenue he is pessimistie and in assuming
Little has been said by outsiders, and probably little will be said in
disbursement he is optimistie, which I think is wise budgetary
favor of the bill, and I want to go on record about seven points which
I think are highly commendable.
procedure.
Nevertheless, I think it is illuminable that there is no evidence
Fint, The proposal to levy a flat tax on selected corporations,
in person or otherwise, so far as the deliberations of the Ways and
while I might not agree with you on those which should be selected,
Means Committee are concerned, that any attempt was made to
and especially on receivers and deficit corporations, is a move in the
ascertain whether or not such disbursements may not be diminished.
right direction.
I do not doubt at all that such investigation may have been con-
Second. 1 commend in principle the provisions, which though I
ducted and was considered, but I say it is illuminable there is no
think are entirely too complicated, which are intended to lighten the
evidence of the fact that such consideration actually occurred.
tax burden on corporations with prior deficits, those prohibited by
binding agreement with creditors or by statute from disbursing earn-
May I speak for 3% moment on the constitutionality of the bill be-
fore you, and I am not for a moment claiming this bill is unconstitu-
ingr, and debt-ridden corporation which wished voluntarily to
amortize their debts.
tional in any of its major parts.
The CHAIRMAN, Doctor, are you a lawyer?
Third. Early elimination of the capital-stock and excess-profits
Dr. KLEIN, Yes, sir; but, despite that fact, I make an honest
taxes, although I raise the question whether you can afford to give up
those revenues.
living.
Fourth. Subjecting dividends to surtaxes, I think is a move in the
The CHAIRMAN. Some people who are not lawyers like to speak
right direction, although on the basis of equity it seems to me there
on constitutional questions, is the reason I ask.
should be an equivalent exemption for the recipient of the dividend
Dr. KLEIN. I will not argue with anyone who claims it is consti-
in taxing him before the dividend is made possible, I sometimes
tutional. I do not know, and no modest man knows, since the sur-
think that theory, which seems to be held by most, does not bear
prises that have come to you from a place not far from this room.
theoretical analysis.
Even Mr. Kent will not be sure.
Fifth You have a dividend carry-over provision, and I think if
But, I say to you, just suppose by the barest, the wildest possi-
louns fairness and the need of having some carry-over provision for net
you do finally decide to levy high rates, you ought to consider the
bility that this bill turns out in its major part to be unconstitutional:
what is the result? You have given up $1,230,000.000 on computed
through similar to that which was introduced in the 1918 act, carried
income under existing levies, subject to the wildest sort of adjust-
into 1921 and gradually sloughed off.
ment by the statisticians I suppose, when they get. down with their
6. You have a very commendable feature with to the
pencils to figure it, for something supposed to result in $620,000,000
complete vision liquidation of corporations, and by that device respect
additional revenue.
like you you to make unnecessary the resort to subterfuge, and I or should pro-
I have had nothing to do with provisos of this sort, optimistic and
pessimistic, but I realize that history has a way of dealing with
logical realm, consider partial the liquidation. advisability of extending that into the next
them, but those who are charged with enacting this legislation must
:. those With respect to your withholding provisions, the to
know they are foregoing a tremendously positive assured income for
tion, tax I would nonresident aliens that to so great an extent attempt
an income which it is barely possible may turn out to be elusive.
and I would suggest a flat 15-percent rate, instead escape taxa-
Fortunately the alternative is not as bard at this moment as it
littes you are not also suggest in addition to your of 10 percent,
may appear to be in either the present law or the present bill.
of securities. considering, a tax on profits resulting own provisions from the sale the
If the Congress has the intent of lovying a tax on undistributed
corporation earnings, I imagine there is much to be said in favor
resident A tremendous alien volume of securities are actively
of that principle, but like 80 many other things, the gap between
individuals and corporations. The dealt Securities in by non- Ex-
principle and practice is so wide.
As the President first announced the theory, I think it sounded
a responsive chord in the minds of many who publicly claim to be
Regraded Unclassified
96
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
97
upposed to anything that emanates from the White House today,
come and go, esnnot pot teeth into sections 351 and 102. I would
but the Ways and Means Committee found, BH you will note, that
hate to admit their inability in that direction.
you canxiot apply that principle as is without modification, without
As to the experimental levy along the lines of the bill, after your
adjustment, without special consideration, which accounts for the
net income, and after you tax on the net income, I will suggest that
turn to the actual complexity of the bill.
after certain adjustments the undistributed surplus, experimentally
If you were merely intent upon producing a bill of a few lines
it seems to me, might be subject to a very simple schedule of rates,
it could be very simple, but it would have to be unfair, and one must
say, 1 percent on the first 10 percent not distributed, 9 percent on
concede in the endeavor to modify the harshness of the enforcement
the next 10 percent, and 80 on until 10 percent on all of that not
provisions as introduced, which added to the comploxity of the
income is reached. I submit it would work; it may not vield your
measure, I think we may overemphasize what has been referred
revenue, but it is very much similar to the rutes you have been
to as the short-sighted policy, I think it was by Mr. Edmonds in this
asked to consider.
morning's session when he referred to the peaks and hollows in our
The CHAIRMAN. That proposition Was presented to us some years
income taxes, It is simply a human break that cannot be all good
ago, but the Senate would not accept it.
and all bad.
Dr. KLMIN. I did not get that, Mr. Chairman.
It cannot be negatived that this tax will put in a preferred position
The CHAIRMAN. I say that principle was presented in n. minority
the corpulent corporations, the corporations well-heeled with mir-
report when we happened to be in the minority, but our Republican
pluses from past years.
brothers would not accept it.
Perhaps it is unavoidable, but on the other hand it is not perhaps
Dr. KLEIN, You will not resent my saying that perhaps Congress,
to the extent that has already been pointed oat, and perhaps not to
as well as the rest of us, develop.
insist, but there it is,
the extent that some others, who are less restrained than I am, will
The CHAIRMAN. I am glad to know you think we were right, then,
as we are right now.
The Chairman, Have you any constructive suggestion us to how
Dr. KLEIN. You may have been wrong both times and right both
from them?
we can regulate this so that we can get some fair amount of revenue
times, because times change.
I imagine that large businesstoen, and you know someone referred
Dr. KLEIN, I would not have the heart to come before this body
to the fact that businessmen might be put in quotation marks, that
big businessmen might be happy to accept today what they rejected
attempting to offer constructive suggestions.
merely to criticize 1 measure that deserved the criticism without
3 or 4 years ago.
gestions may be worse than those before you, but at least they sug- are
Perhaps those suggestions so regarded by me as constructive
If you wish to retain this category of classification of corpora-
tions, I suggest the following for the normal ordinary corporation
sincerely expected to be helpful.
without special profits, a tax of 20 percent on ordinary income, and
Here in a constructive suggestion, to extend the provisions in the
I suppose my clients will lynch me when they read ef this,
mented changed, and modified, as I shall later indicate, supple- taxes,
supplemented. existing law, sections 102 and 351, retaining the existing
Senator KING. Net income, you mean!
Dr. KLEIN. Ordinary income as defined in the existing law, dedue-
Lot us by an experimental tax on undistributed earnings,
tion to be allowed for capital losses, both securities and capital assets,
whole length try if it you out, are and thus if it disposed. works, if it is constitutional, go the
but in no event to increase the taxable income by more than 15
Under existing section 351, as you know,
percent. That would mean that the 20 percent might drop to 17
20 to 60 slightly adjusted, are subject to the percent of their
holding net income, companies which fail to distribute at least corporations, 80 personal
percent, but not beyond that.
That distribution also be allowed of income in the hands of indi-
viduals, and I wish you would follow me closely in this, limited,
nom to percent. Extend that, if you will, to the tax that runs from
however, to one-third of the amount of such distribution, and in DO
able to you to be in mind, when you refer to a handful corporations that
event reduce the tax by more than 25 percent of the amount of the
enrichment. I control the destinies of the corporation to their of individuals own tax
tax.
suppose
the
In other words, this would encourage, not what was determined
shed that I no type tears, that if ought that Mellon is to what companies be brought you decided would under be section a splendid 351, and example I would of
by some speaker this morning, ns most of what he said I disagree
with, the sledge-hammer methods but by that persuasive worth
within should the purview think Mr. of Ford's corporation to do. might well be brought
while economic advantageous method. This would permit payment
of three-quarters of the amount of current earnings at # tax benefit
holding Section companies 102 of the and present mere law deals, as you know, with mere
section 351.
to the distributing corporation.
Now, ns to personal holding companies and investment holding
category logo unreasonable of other in corporations size. investment which permit companies, and with a great
companies practically what I said a moment ago applies, and I shall
not repeat it.
of the present administration I doubt very much accumulation whether the ingenuity of earn-
The companies in bankruptcy, and those in other forms of court
technicians who carry on the Treasury officials, Department, and that splendid when the body officials of
reorganization proceedings, I should think that a 10-percent tax,
although 1 do not think it makes much difference in the long run
Regraded Unclassified
98
REVENUE ACT, 1036
REVENUE ACT, 1936
99
well, I think, to limit to about 10 percent.
whether you any 10 or 90, you will not collect much there, Inct it looks
I make the suggestion now in the belief that the bonus legislation.
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Klein, in making these suggestions, of course,
which was referred to at least twice this morning, Was chacted be-
you have figured out what the estimate would be in the matter of
cause Congress believed there was an overwhelming demand for it.
increased revenue.
Why should not the great public be permitted to share in the
Dr. KLEIN. No sareasm, I know, is intended in your question, but
financing of the precipitated Budget! I shall not go into the phi-
it should have been, sir. Of course, I made no attempt to do so, but
losophy of direct and indirect taxation, but I do submit that if a
I have worked with the committee long enough to know you have at
direct tax was ever justified it. is for the support and financing of a
your beck and call statisticians much abler than I to handle this
measure that seemed to be 0% erwhelmingly popular, and I submit
problem, and who have figures and basic facts which are not available
that recommendation; and here I have some figures, Mr. Chairman,
to me,
which I will submit.
The CHAIRMAN. Of course, we have to look at the amount of rev-
The possibility of & tax on salt, which at 1 cent per pound would
enue to be derived, as you know.
yield
in 5 minutes, but it takes longer now.
Dr. KLEIN. I understand. In the days of McCoy he could answer
Senator KING. What did that do toward precipitating the French
Revolution?
porations that because of either binding contract arrangements OF
There ought to be some special provision for distribution by cor-
Dr. KLMN, It brought it about, I believe, so we are told.
Senator BLACK. That kind of a tax was not popular in England.
again 20 percent on their net income; once again a limited allowance once
because of statutory prohibitions they cannot make distribution,
Dr. KLEIN. I am not sure, but I think Senator King's reference to
the French Revolution is correct. Let me give you the figure, A
for capital issues; and once again a similarly limited allowance for
tax on salt nt 1 cent per pound would be $152,241,480, on the basis
the distribution if which cannot be made because of legal prohibition:
(a) the distribution which would not be made under statutes; (8) for
of the consumption of 1934. I am not surprised that you are sur-
prised at such IL figure,
of (e) debt you wish, for some limited amount of voluntary amortization
The CHAIRMAX. Have you figured what part of that tax Utah
not as under the present bill, but all such limited altogether at
would bear to the whole amount?
expressing more than it. one-fourth of the tax rate, which is another way of
Dr. KLEIN. What is that, Mr. Chairman?
The CHAIRMAN. Have you figured what amount of that tax Utah
Something of was said this morning by an eloquent witness about the
would bear, ILN compared to the whole amount, in that salt tax?
nite, need and encouraging I business to establish uniformity, I have defi-
Dr. KLEIN. I think Utah would be more interested in the sugar
Billions hope a constructive suggestion to make along those a
tax, which I will come to next.
have been spent by the Government in lines.
Senator BARKLEY. If you tax salt, you will tax salt used for human
denvor direct and to indirect relief, many millions have been spent connection in the with en-
consumption only?
decrease unemployment.
Dr. KLEIN. I figure there will be something less than the figure I
this I am direction positive that local, State, and National no figures to submit,
In the quite heavy-goods industry, while I have
gave, on refinement. I am not much of a politician, but I think the
salt tax is an ideal tax, although it may be said that it was the pri-
body. have not attained results which are pleasing expenditures to any- in
mary cause of the French Revolution, to which reference has been
My constructive at least suggestion. therefore, while,
made,
Senator KING. Why don't you put it on tea?
ployment wrong. where deals it is with the worst an attempt to do something of course, about I may unem- be
Dr. KLEIN. We will come to that later. I do not drink ten. Be-
cause of the abstract fact that in 1935 there were less than 100 cor-
income Suppose figure you to were a very to permit limited today-in as a deduction the heavy-goods from that same industry. net-
porate producers of salt, the tax could be very easily levied at the
distributed suggest in not in more the first than year, 2 fiscal and years, extent, of and 50 percent at the present of the amount time I
source.
To come to the next point, sugar, both that which is produced
domestically, ILH well as that which is imported, at 1. cent- per pound
percent: with concerned respect and to to for 30 20 the percent. percent next year for thereof, also limited to or 20 one-fifth, SO percent, far as which but reduction this would of taxes be 4
would yield $130,000,000, and the tax could be easily collected either
at the point of import, with respect to foreign sugar, and at the
plant for, I but and actually equipment. spent-by way what of is replacement actually spent-not and contracted time only
domestic refineries on the domestic sugar,
A tax on coffee at 5 cents per pound, according to the 1935 figures
Where hope following that no year. similar suggestion will have to be made additions for the to
of consumption, would yield $75,000,000.
uest
Now coming to tea. no matter how much you raise the ante on it
you cannot get much from it. At 10 cents a pound, it would be only
not sloughed are off you going I do not to get know all of that this any money of it from will be if some of it is
$19,000,000, based on the 1934 consumption.
Now, I come to 11. subject that Senator Hastings, I think, would be
sloughed
off.
interested in, as it does not affect his State. This is the question
of intercorporate dividends.
The CHAIRMAN, Why wouldn't Senator Hastings be interested
in it?
Regraded-Unclassified
100
BEVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
101
Dr. KLATE I will make that clear, in the hearings on the 1935 act,
you wipo the state clean, and all of that increment of income escapes
and I go by the record now, Senator Hastings refreshed the recol-
lections of his colleagues by referring to the fact that when the
taxation. I submit that sumeone along the line of action 112 (h) I believe it
-called utility death bill was under consideration he or somebody
owners of foreign corporations under terms which would not make
is, you might well enough provide for the return of such American
else had stated that if you are going to compel the break up of these
pyramided structures-and I hold no brief for them; they are
the return too onerous, and thus bring them within the purview or
aleminations in many respects-that there ought to be some tax
the taxing authorities, and I make two constructive suggestions:
easing out of the situation, and, as I recall, it was in the Senate, and
(1) If the corporation is broken up and the assets taken down, to
not nn the other side of the Capitol, that section 110 (h) was intro-
subject the profit that is there to a flat tax, and I submit 12.5 percent
duest, amending section 112 of the 1934 act, which permitted, ILR [
merely for the sake of discussion; and
recall it, a tax-free break-up for the liquidation if consummated
(2) That where no American company is established, or is already
within a 5-year period.
in existence, which takes down such assets, they should be permitted
In the new bill reference was made to it, and at this point I think
to do so under the terms and conditions similar to those which you
the record ought to be corrected, because without intention misin-
introduced in the 1935 net with respect to the liquidation of pyra-
formation was given to the committee.
mided corporations.
Under the provisions of the bill before you, if a corporation dis-
I now come to the very last suggestion, and it is this: You will
tributes its income to the controlling corporation-that is, from cor-
not get a perfect tax bill whether you try to do the job in a week or
poration II to corporation A-and if A owns more than 50 percent
in n. year. The measure before you now requires tremendous re-
of B, the distributing corporation may not reduce its tax because
vamping both for administrative and for fiscal reasons, in my
of that dividend distribution, and if you have a chain of corpora-
tions, there is a carve-out as it goes on each step in the process, at a
opinion. I suggest that instead of trying to tinker with this law at this time,
diminishing percent, but eventually you do approach a figure which
and that is all you are doing, you are not making an effort at re-
approaches, although you cannot reach entirely a zero balance,
vision, that some joint committee be appointed to study the entire
particularly interested in, that of those corporations that have availed
I submit, and this is what I thought Senator Hastings might be
subject of tax legislation, with a purpose which is more necessary
themselves of your invitation of last year to disappear from the
today than it was 3 or 4 years ago, for more effective cooperation
between the State taxing bodies and the national tax-legialation
of as pyramids and started on that process, which must take some scene time,
administration, and meanwhile, because whether we like it. or not,
Chrough in fashion. the which takes all of its earnings and passes them
Certainly this a corporation series or group of corporations integrated
course, they ought not to be subjected to this penalty.
revenue must be raised. That cannot be left open, and it is nobody's
fault that you are confronted with this situation.
all within group to the top company, which makes rapidly
Senator KING. Would you support the resolution 1 offered in the
intend to do penalty, because, after all, even under the bill all sub-
jected to this the tax year in which it was earned, ought a not distribution, to be
Senate some time ago to have the President of the United States confer
with all of the States and have the State and Federal Government
appoint a body-delegate ambassadors, OF whatever you may call
submit that is to tax the earnings once, if not distributed, you
provision, is an unfounded inventment of those who and I
them-for the purpose of working out a plan as far RS possible for
- all of the unless they worked under such pressure they drafted this not
the coordination of the State and Federal Government so that there
Senator K180. consequences, which, of course, is a human really did
would not be duplication in texation as it now exists; but nothing has
been done about it.
state the evils of which Have you you complain! prepared an amendment which possibility. will ob-
Dr. KLEIN. I am in entire accord with you on that, Senator, and I
submit I think will do it,
Dr. Kunx, what I am a very poor draftsman, but I would be glad to
venture to say that sooner or later they will come to you.
Senator KING. Mr. Graves, a very able tax man of New York, and
notes, The CHAIRMAN. All of our draftsmen, and they are taking down
others, met here about a year ago and examined the proposition.
Dr. KLEIN. Yes: I know him very well.
Dr. REPIN. is I 01111 sure of that. Here is
Senator KING. And I thought they were going forward with the
unioty the Treasury not responsible, as but you may welcome something and for which my
plan to bring about such a conference.
Dr. KLEIN. I cannot say off the record, so therefore it will have to
Incomes well as you will admit it, on this I think
be on the record. that New York is a little timid about that, becative
and the potential more onerous taxpayer. there is and a great conflict that between as your the taxgatherer tax burden
I am sure that while it is accidental-but whenever we pool our reve-
nue from the States the State of Texas seems to get a larger share
entirely, 1 for have the not large the number statistics a THE
than New York does proportionately.
13 extent they do is business in American without business paying any tax on their profits except has, to but the
Senator BLACK. May I ask whether New York sells anything to
Texas on which they make a profit?
may www. upon the death of and the stockholders it is discovered. in such and, corporation, strange as
Dr. KLEIN. Yes: but they would like to sell more. You cannot
get me to argue about Texas, because I have a soft spot for that
State.
102
REVENUE ACT, 1980
REVENUE ACT, 1956
103
Senator BLACK. I understood you to say that Texas got more than
New York and I wanted to know whether New York got anything
Committee UN Peteral legialation:-Bownrd e Book, Washington, D. (I)
in the way of profit on the things produced and sold in Texas.
Howard H. Bell, Spokatie, Wash. Gillsert F. Dukes, Mohile, Ala.; Junies J.
Fox, Boston, Mass: KNeworth 1. Fulk, Lincoln, Nebr.: Gilbort IL Golger,
Dr. KLEIN, Yes; but I think it is more or less n. geographical
Peorin, III, John S. Opena, Nastville, Term. Horace P. Grifth, Philadelphia,
question.
Pa.: James K. Hammond, Man Francisco, Calif.; John T. Maddon, New York,
Senator BLACK. You think it is geographical?
N. Y.: Douglas S, Mendon, Cloveland, Obio: Allen Redolor, Denver, Colo:
Frank A Shatlenberger, Baltiniore, Md.; T. Dwight Williams, Oklaboma
Texas. Dr. KIRIM. Sir, you have got me all wrong; I am really praising
City, Okla.
incontive D. Morrison, Donver, Colo.: Harry M. Jay,
Senator CONNALLY. In Now York you regard Texas as one of the
Memphls, Team: Durand W. Springer, Washington, D. C: William C. Heaton,
richest suburbs of New York City,
Elixabeth, N. J.; Henry J. Miller, New Orlenns, La.
Dr. KLRIN. Not for plucking, if that is what you mean,
is ALLESED SIMPLICITY OF THE REVENUE BILL
Senator CONNALLY. You have plucked them so bad that there is
not much left now,
The Président, in to the Congress on March 3, 1906, indicated
Dr. KLETX. You cannot get me to argue about Texas because as I
additional revenue needs. He invited the attention of Congress to the revenue-
said I have a soft spot for that State. I am through now in a few
raising posstbilities of a tax on undistributed corporate income. He and of
this proposal:
seconds except for your questions, if you have any to ask.
"Such a revision of our corporate taxes would offect great simplification in
The situation is that as to temporary emergency revenue we are
tax procedure, in corporate accounting. and In the understanding of the whole
restricted to an essential minimum to provide for current expenses
subject by the citizens of the Nation, It would constituto distinct progrem in
and for the next fiscal year while this entire problem shall be inves-
tax reform."
As a representative of the American Society of Certified Public Accountants,
tigated from one or more of the following sources: Increased rates
1 am not here to discuss tax reform por sex, nor whether or not the proposti
on corporate incomes and you have indicated what I think might be
constitutes real or desirable reform. I do, however, refer to the experience of
cent and surely not more than 2 percent; reduced personal per-
a fair figure: increased normal rates on individual incomes, 1
the Committee on Ways und Means in Its attempt to apply the apparently etm-
ple principle advocated by the administration and submit, ns a representative
of a group which has been familiar with principles and phietices of Federal
tions somewhat above the British level, subjecting dividends received exemp-
income taxation since 1009, and which has been privileged to serve both the
by individuals and to some extent by corporations, to the normal
Government and the taxpayer, that the precise proposal now under considera-
tax: the share tax on nonresident aliens and nonresident
tion by the House and by this committee In decidedly not simple,
tions; referred = small unit tax on one or more of the commodities corpora- I have
Competent students of taxation were shocked nt B. first reading of the bill.
In my own experience with American and foreign taxation and with national
modities to, and the chances are you will be able to select the
and local taxation, I know of no taxing measure that approaches the present
better which will lend themselves to this sort of taxation much com-
bill in apparent AS well as In actual complexity, In my opinion, the present
than I am able to do so,
bill cannot be made really simple. I venture the guess that If the country
ord sion at this been very instructive, and we will have included in the discus- rec-
The has CHAIRMAN, Thank you very much, Mr. Klein. Your
were ever unfortunate enough to be subjected to taxation under any such ып,
ns the one under consideration, whether or not the proposed "windfall tax"
provision therein contained would prove fruitful of revenue, accountants and
(The brief referred to is as follows:)
point the brief submitted by you.
tax practitioners would find in the legislation a veritable windfall, for I doubt
very much that many corporations, unless served by professional accountants
and tax experts, would risk undertaking to determine the tax under the terms
THE AMERICAN SOCIETY or PUBLIC ACCOUNTANTS,
of the ын.
I should be the first to concede that the mesenge of the President. in the
Washington, D. C.
reference to a tax on undistributed corporate income, was set forth in simple
MEMORANDUM PREPARED BENATE FOR SUBMISSION TO THE FINANCE COMMITTEE OF THE
and understandable terms. The members of this committee are aware, how-
ever, through wide experience In the drafting of revenue logislation, that II.
Re REVENUE Bill. OF 1936
precise and detailed tax measure, capable of wise, equitable, and effective ad-
lend attemit The to revenue tentrict MII my under remarks diseussion to the deals with a number of matters, but 1 In-
ministration throughout the land and under the diverse conditions and altun-
tions which exist, cannot be brief and simple If It tx to avoid unintended hard-
the tion main, of represents the American my Society views as of chairman Certified Income-tax of the fentures. committee What on Federal I am about legisla- to
ship and harsh discrimination. Although we have become accustomed to com-
plex revenue laws, all our post experience has not prepared us for what In now
of Finaldes directors except effician and hy where my of follow otherwise committeemen. Indicated Public or Imptied, Accountants, are shared views by the which. board in
proposed as a substitute for existing law. But It is hardly necessary To labor
the point, A few valiant volces on the other side of the Capitol have publicly
neclaimed the bill under discussion as simple In composition and easy of appli-
structive adderation suggestions specific as are well selected offered as provisions and, In addition. of the bill, there specific are and detailed con-
cation. I shall leave to others, less mild-mannered than the speaker, just char-
acterization of the assertion.
revistion Hospectfully different All of this appronch is arranged to general Immediate In 15 changes Rections as well and modifications as long-range presented and revenue-law 41. for funda- con-
There comes to mind the procedure of the College of Cardinals when is new
pope is to be elected. It would be eruel and Inhuman punishment to test the
submitted.
alleged simplicity of the proposal by Inviting Congressmen who voted for the
bill to apply the rate formulas to typical problems. If these Congressmen were
Chairman, American Committee on Federal Josten J. KLEIN,
placed to solitary confluement and deprived of food and drink until they had
solved successfully one of several typical problems which I nm prepared to
Roelety of Certified Public Legislation, Accountants. the
submit, It Is a safe guess that they would never again legislate on this earth.
104
BEVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1938
105
If - MEMBRAL SUBERT, WITH EXPIRATION REFERENCE TO COMMENDANCE FEATURES or
advantages and privilegen of corporations, 48 compared with partnerships and
the maz.
mode proprietorabile, numply Justify a heavier fax: alao, that, If the past, con-
dalde from (he implesity of the bill which, If Its philosophy Les to be
portallons have enjoyed this benefits denied to partnérships and sole proprietor-
is inevitable to the attempt to avoid unlue harshness, the proposial Doe
ships, Let the look nt the record:
From 1000 to 1013, corporations wro subject to a Federal exclain tax. al-
remundable matures which deserve praise. On the other hand. there the
though IT was not unfil 1013 that individuals became subject to income DIX.
give with the MIII should not be approved, and these I Internal to pre-
During 1915, corporations were subject to a combined Income las and excess-
of Certified Public Accountants to continue its constructive ald to the legista-
wat As courtaily as postible In fulfillment of the desire of the American Society
profits tax which attathed a maximum of 52.4 percent: the corresponding max-
tive and administrative branches of the Government
from tax applicable to individuals was 77 percent. However, dividends die-
reibuited by curporations (which, as stated, might have paid a maxfonum of
ressons, or for both, are:
Among the commendable Restures of the bill, for procedural OF substantive
82.4 percent) became subject to surtax In the frands of recipient stockholders
1. À flut 15-percent las (In Heu of the complicated levies under 18)
up to a maxterium of 65 percent, or to n combined tax of 93.84 percent. Cor-
porations were also, of course, subject to Federal and State taxes on capital.
not dolog business in the United States, and, most especially, companies in
subreted corporations such as benks, Insurance compantes, foreign corporations on
During Inter years, the tax on Individuals, relative to that on corporations,
became higher, so that It 1st true that In many Instances there was, and
receivership and "deficit" corporations,
will is, tax economy in conducting business as a corporation. There to econ-
are Intended to lighten the tox burden on corporations with prior deficits, those
2. la principle, the provisions (possibity unnecessarily complicated) which
omle justification for some differentiation, heratise a stockholder of R corpora-
tion does not actually enjoy curporate prodits unitil they are made available in
prohibited by binding agreement with créditors from disbursing earnings, and
him, as was recognized by the Supreme Court in Nisner Y. Mocomber (202
debt-ridden a corporations which wish voluntarily to amortize their debta,
U. S. 189). However, toerely from the viewpoint of Federal, State, and local
4. Subjecting dividends to the normal tax, despite the theoretical
Early elimination of the capital stock and excess-profite taxes.
taxation, advantages no longer extat in favor of conducting small enterprime
was offerting the the exact amount of corporate taxes paid prior to distribution equity of
Les corporato form.
recipient case stockholder. under the 1913 and 1916 acts) by an equivalent exemption to the (RE
V1 CONSTITUTIONALITY OF THE REVENUE HILL
heavy porated taxes through proposed. that it similar carry-over of net losses was not of the
5, The dividend "carry-over" provision. (It In unfortunate, Du view
Speaking for myself, may I venture to amort that It takes considerable in
genuity to formulate an unconstitutional law taxing corporations? While the
of the corresponding a simplified British version tax procedure.) of see. 204 of the 1921 act and In the Incor- spirit
constintionality of revenue acts has never been attacked because of the presence
dation: 6. Liberalization the of provision dealing with the tax incident to
of two redundant and almost unusable tables of rates, challenge has been based
on alleged lack of required uniformity of burden, on the creation of irrebuttable
7. Extension providen should be extended to the two types of partial complete flgui-
presumptions, and on other grounds; other Federal legislation has also been
myeelf, I of withholding provisions to cover dividend liquidation.
attacked on the ground of improper delegation of authority because of confilct
mdividuales suggest on a Bat rate of 15 percent (Instend of 10 percent payment. (For
with the due-process clause, and because of arbitrariness and discrimination.
ships, and other Income of nonresident alten individuals, proposed partner- for
The members of the accounting profession do not pose as experts on constl-
Criticlam of entities, without business activity in the corporations, United
tutional construction. There are elements in the bill. however, which warrant
They
efated may briefly. the MII, together with constructive recommendations, States.) will now
concern about constitutionality. It is somewhat questionable whether a tax
which requires the mathematical ealculation which this bill Impowes on the
III. SOUND LIMITATION or REVENUE INCREASE
taxpayer would find support in the courts. especially If the trier of the Issue
attempted to calculate the tax. More important, however, I might direct your
White foot surrently, If le realized and that current expenditures of the
attention to that provision of the act, in section 16, which makes the Conimis-
or be operating express by while no competent person Would advocate Government should
stoner's decision final, that is, irrebuttable. I are in some doubt as to whether
the eourts would sustain EL palpably arbitrary declation by the Commissioner
of any reference to additional currailment revenue required, we are struck by the our inquiry
La to the comunt of Increased defletts, at the very threshold of the meeting
when the available facts clearly negatived the correctness of his conclusion.
Quite evidently. too, the tax is not measured by elther 2TOMA or net Income,
and private industry. In their In this Bold They have assisted con-
stilemble Invigotary experience, of expenditures. Accountants have had absence
but on a radically different basis. Also, there 1st manifest discrimination, pos-
sibly too arbitrary, among classes of corporations. What the attitude of the
Benefits confrombed with the problem recent domestic economy, they governments
courts will be with respect to such a levy accountants are not entled upon to
Wills would be chargeable with of budget balancing. Professional have also
attempt to prophesy.
Invigor: problems. they did not study and gross negligence ir, In dealing with budgetary account-
I do not wish to be misunderatood: I do not claim that the bill before you
Accountants viowing the examine the disbursement
is unconstitutional in any of its parts: I de venture to Indicate, however, that
filled is (u) by the nill cannot withhold amount of increased taxes sought phase of the
congressional enactments much simpler in Import than the one before us have
Road evidence whatevever that comment that It Is lamentable to be
been held unconstitutional by the High Court, recently and dramatically
of Incremed invation any attempt less been that there
of undestraldo the that the involidization through curtailment of expenditures. made to minimize the
enough to be in the minds of all of us.
Compres Entrys payment unbalanced of the processing bixes and the Although it is
VL WHY BISE THE LOBS or APPROXIMATELY $1,000,000,000 PER ANNUM
to Peduction should endeavor to reduce current the onlinary hudget, It Is submitted acceleration that
purtions of of expenditures, and revenue needs, as für
1. The ordinary income tax. ranging from 12½ percent to 15 percent (prior
The existing levies on corporate Income are us follows:
reduction of The precipitated deficit restrict which additional taxes to make as is good possible, that
and should live expensitures. be made a part Such of additional our permanent cannot Taxes tax be should met be by temporary ellinination levies and
thereto at 13% percent), which, together with the tax on a consolidated income
basis, and the surtax under sections 102 and 351, yielded $572,117,870 during
the last complete flscal year which ended June 30, 1905, and collections under
a JUNVIFICATION FOR INCREASING CORPORATE system.
which during the present fiscal year have been $125,275,0022 greater than during
the corresponding D months of the preceding year.
proposed Isr Among approved. tax the It PRI) a heard advanced to TAXES
which, at the $1 rate imposed under the 1034 act, yielded $91,508,121 during
2. The capital-stock tax at the rate of $1.40 por $1,000 of declared valuation the
a a question net Income of additional Was one Justification revenue which has needs, a of popu- the the
last complete Ascal year which ended June 20, 1906. Collections at the higher
65452-pt.
Regraded Unclassified
106
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE AUT, 1986
107
rein curring the first D months of the current fiscal year Date treem
un Increase of over the corresponding period of 1905.
aujustment for the deficits of corporations which were taken late account
& The profits tax at 0 present and 12 percent (I)) income las of
in the determination of the negregate net income and on the assumption that
the emminte freed from the levy because of the capital-stoe tax with of the
the concinsions predicated on the statistical data employed do not require
D-parement rate then to effect, yielded $0,560,483 during the last complete Dont
substantial adjustment, the Treasury would have Duregune enflections of over
year ended June so, 1985 $10,000.000 was the estimated yield for the
$108,000,000 had no tax been tevied, as la proposed to the revenue bill, in
Does) year. 1 Use TIMES report of the Secretary of the Treasury.
corporations which had distributed all of their corporate earnings At best,
4. The surface under action 102 for unrensonable OF Improper accomulation
To waive taxes of corporations which distribute all of Care DIFFERE theome
of surplas, at un percent and nt 35 percent, and the surfex OR "personal holding
manifestly would exempt from las, during certain lean periods, many large com-
sumpables". under sertion 351, at rates ranging from 20 to 00 percent The
pantes with substancial Income? to reduce the tax of diridend-paying
glein from Chese accures has not, do far an 1 know, been published separately.
rations proportionalely to the ratio of dividends paid to net Income would
bot II In available to the committee, as It In the estimate for the
similarly benefit companies emply uble to met Tax obligations.
COTTAILE STATE This levey la retained In is Denited form, as la also the surtas
Moreover. if Congress to to embark on the policy of taxing enrrent corpo-
en belding companies."
rate Income on the basis of the amount retained, " should be clear that while
To (otal steld from all taxes on corporations for The Inst fiscal year which
temporary collections will be greater, during periods of business recession
etided Jame 30, HRSS, Was $670,196,480; collections for the current year over
three evils will be superimposed on those which are inevitably associated with
running aloud of those for last year by approximately $131,000,000.
depressions (a) The amounts distributed by corporations will be less because
yields business continues to Improve. It is reasonable to expect correspondingly higher (If
their reserves WILL be leas; (b) dividends received will be less, the tax (m
from the sources under discussion, Indeed, the Statistician of
these dividends will be less, and stockholders will have form to spend when
Treasury las estimated that all corporate taxes for 1030, If the existing law the
spending is most necessary: (c) those corporations which are conducted profit-
regains unchanged, would amount To $1,132,000,000.)
ably despite the burdness recession (and there are some) will pay no tax on
at the hair proposed that, are for the temporary retention of the capital-stock to
In considering the revenue MII, consideration must, of course, be given
their profits at a time when the Government needs income most, because of the
probability that these corporations will distribute most, If not all, of their
The belief reasonably assisted Income of over $1,000,000,000 is to be abandoned. Press-profts
tax, the existing rates and the temporary retenting of the tax
earnings.
An analysis of the normal probable effect of the proposed hill appours to
justify the conclusion that It embodies a short-stghted fiscal policy-a polley
. pormanently that the complicated and novel measure under disensation will in
which attempts to collect In taxes more than the traffle will boar, without
leview increased reverne of $020,000,000 per annum from the yield
concern for the fiscal needs of the morrow. Legislation so conceived Incks
estime mr our undistributed corporate Income and from the proposed proposed
to The trotheal on dividents received by individuals, which are to Increased In-
the essential qualities of stateminnship and la without vision.
entionaly discussed as well as to the surtax. Fellow accountants with become subject
VIII INFLUENCE or CORPORATE FINANCING AND GROWTH
of Milleg fae that It is quite Impossible to exaggerate the estimates,
serve with the matter, while bestating to criticize official whom I have
If the present MII represents a permanent attitude of Congress toward cor-
revenue bill. on estimates of yield from so novel a measure unavoldable ne the pending havards
porate taxpayers, financing through bond Issues will Inevitably be discouraged,
Suppose, law be Just suppose, that the Supreme Court were to
because It will become Increasingly difficult to assure bendbolders of the estab-
claims IAX that unconstitutional. the risk of Personally, I shall not argue decide with that the new
lished mode of protection to which they are entitled. Provision restricting
dividends 80 long as bonded obligations exist, and adoption of a policy of
Tomo that such a declaion is Immensurably anyone who
amortization (thus Interfering with the free use of earnings for dividends on
discumstances anyone is it of competence would unqualifiedly assert slight, nor do I sup-
common and preferred stock) will be hindered because of the penalty on reten-
MIL fle in Its major provisions, concelvable Invalid That the High Court might find that the under proposed no
tion of earnings. And as one regards this problem one cannot be unmindful
Is quite Triple beside A (Hoome) the point: declaions & were Whether or were not the Schechter (N. R. A.) and
of the history of taxation here and elsewhere. A tax tends to became crystal-
lized; the temptation to increase rates becomes irresistable; hence, whatever
by on orportions Time] decision bolding catastrophie In their effect
the evils in the proposed bill may be, such evils tend to become greater no the
The file If Mins aboundantly would work clear unthinkable that Injury unconstitutional to our national the proposed Boances.
needs for increased revenue arlses. It la for this reason, among others, that
sibitity interved " of In revenue the proposition ralsing would not those Nicly who assume are charged the with the respon-
constructive criticism of the measure should be free and unrestricted.
Now, as to the growth of corporations. It is almost too mantfest for argu-
la onliness to assume Portunately, such risks. as I shall at once constitutions! proceed to show, risks
ment that corporations which, in the past, have built up large surpluses will,
through the Inevitable effect of the tax policy Incorporated In the bill, be tre-
mendously advantaged in competition with corporations that have no sur-
VII A SHORT-STOILED FISCAL POLICY
pluses or deñelte and with newly created enterprises. Surely, the framers of
that Witnemes the fiscal before policy the of Ways and Menns Committee have
the revenue bill could not have Infended any such boon to the opulent cor-
porntion.
Ming during during less profitable corporations years which resulted In the clearly creation Indicated
II. NAFED EXFERIMENTATION
principle regarded Benefity, of as the a a made possible dividend purposes corporate disbursements finance, of sur- the
If Congress decides that It really wishes to experiment with a general tax
on undistributed income, two perfectly safe alternatives are available: (1)
National
has
long
been
Extension of existing enetions 102 and 351: (2) Continuation of existing (ases
dividend ANDRESS CANA that City the Bank all period of New from York, 1921 to on 1033, the basta while of the Treasury
supplemented by a minor (experimental) tax on undistributed corporate
income.
dende the same corporations Derind amounted to $3,200,000,000, average
(A) Estension of cristing sections 102 and 851-Under section 351 of the
existing law, a surtax le levied on Incomes of personal holding companies.
1 Time distributed. In expense of either was the in showing the absence that during averaged. a of these $3,900,000,000 18 yenrs (liv). per
This is in addition to the normal tax (in the statutory net Income of such cor-
porations, levied nt the rates applicable to ordinary corporations. The statu-
net The during of not 1000, income or for inmounts
tory net income is adjusted In the manner clearly set forth in the law, and the
year. for a a Income net $5,600,000,000 earnings Tax rate or were was only paid the 12 $1,400,000,000. percent: Best by corporations full year In of
excess of such adjusted net Income over dividends paid during the taxable year
and after a 20-percent reserve and a reasonable reserve to retire Indebtedness
Incurred prior to 1984 te subject to a graded surtax ranging from 20 percent
without
to 00 percent.
Regraded Unclassified
108
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1036
109
Do the extent of the validity of the criticiam directed acrost corporate man-
sprund, namely that because a few stockholders are In control, income la per-
or questionable valifity or undestrable economic correquences, and
mitted to accumulate unreasonably and undersemently, the definition of personal
the yield from taxes on Individuals will be increased. Under the provisions of
Solding company cold probably be modified su as to CODO with major abum
the revenue bill, If TO percent of corrent oarnings are distributed, the tax un
Burdy. If the criticiam IF predicated DEL the conduct of a relatively few Com-
net permings would be about 4 percent for ordinary corporations with incomes
porations which are ennirulled by a handful of stockholders, that Card lourdly
up to $10,000 and 7% percent for such corporations with Incurries OVER $40,000;
justifies such totical change to was texing *ystem as Le contemplated in the
The corresponding tax herein proposed La 15 percent.
extetion DILL
(2) Applicable to personal bolding companies: Continue the surfax under
Becting 102 of the existing law deals with mere Investment and holding com-
existing section 351, with rates provided in existing action 102, and continue
panies regardies of the number of stockholders, and with other ordinary Inst-
the existing normal tax OD such corporations, or, proferably, substitute " dat
eveporations which are used or availed of for the purpose of accumulating
the rate.
unressemable surpluses. While It la understandable that the Treasury has
(8) Applicable to mere Investment OF holding companies: Same as TAX pro-
experiment difficulty le enforcing the provision generally, except with respect
posed for section 851 corporations above.
to here bubling and investment companies, I wonder If the ingenuity of those
(4) Applicable to curporations in hankruptcy or in court pro-
will charged with Iscal responsibility could not suggest more effective admin-
cerdings: A tax of 10 percent on the ordinary net Income.
latrative provisions then those contained in the present statute. 1
(5) Applicable to corporations with statutory and/or bindlog legal postrio-
that officials both of The Treasury and of the Jobit congressional committee be
Units on payment of dividends:
unped to make appropriate recommendations. For myself, I am DUE prepared
(d) A TAX of 20 percent on ordinary net Income.
to concerde that inforevent of the principle of section 102 is Impossible,
(6) Deductions to be allowed for expital Tomies not taken into consideration
(B) Continuation of cristing fame supplemented by e minor (deperimental)
in the determination of ordinary net Income, but in no event to decrease the
los on undistribated curporate income-If It is to be ussumed that Congress la
objury net Income by more than 15 percent thereof.
determined to experiment with a tax on retained curporate earnings, I
(c) Deductions also to be allowed (1) for distributions of earnings texable
that the existing corporate levies be continued; that If other alternatives suggest
in the bands of Individuals, (4) for the amount of current net earnings which,
not acceptable, a flat corporate Income-tax rate be Imposed slightly higher than are
pursuant to statutory requirements, eannot be distributed 0.0 dividends; and
the maximum graded rates; that the normal las be made applicable
(iii) for the amount of current net earnings which, pursuant to binding written
increased to dividents received by individuals; that the normal tax on Individuals be
agreements between the taxpayer and its creditors in existence on or before
moderately number returnst; and, in addition, that n. very moderate, simple, and expert-
by our or at most by 2 percent, or that the specific exemptions be
March 1, 1936, cannot be distributed as dividends: the aggregate deductions
hereunder limited, however, to 50 percent of the aggregato amount thereof, and
tax be imprived on undistributed corporate Income,
in no event to decrease ordinary net income by more than 25 percent thereof.
1 income for discussion a tax of 1 percent on the first 10 percent of
The proposed provision for Including among deductions Item (if) accomplishes
Income. and thereon, capital losses not deductible in calculating applicable
income HAVE les (detormined by deducting from ordinary net Income The retained
part of the evident purposes of section 14 more simply: It is also more equitable,
Mill the best 20 luxable dividends disbursed during the dividend year), ordinary 2 net
11. ENCOURAGEMENT OF CAPITAL DISBURSEMENTS
There percent or retained net income has been
the final 10 percent with similar gradations until a maximum of 10 percent percent
It is a trite observation that in the framing of a revenue measure economic
net the chances It is neither on grows Income nor any levy on retained
corcino may because be some question ILM to the constitutionality of reached.
conditions should, as for as posible, be taken into consideration. Many ob-
servets sugree that the enothiuance of the existing oconomic derangement is due
Our constitutional are that such # tax levied on corporate taxpayers ORE true net Income, but
partially to the persistent volume of unemployment, and that unemployment is
tional. lest, But even If the levy were eventually would survive
most severe and distressing in the so-called heavy or durable goods Industries,
to be cunstitutional, no great harm would Phane, On the other hand, held unconstifu-
In the codeuvor of the administration to remedy this adtuation during the past
wither and Congress could safely, If It decided, if the lovy embark were found on a
2 years, among the billions disbursed for direct and Indirect relief, many mil-
more comprehensive Ann of texing undistributed % later net income.
Hons have been spent to decrease unemployment DO the beavy Industries. Dis-
counting adverse and unfriendly criticism and allowing for faulty labor statis-
%. SIMPLIFICATION OF THE REVENUE BITL
ties, Tt is nevertheless unfortunately true that Improvement in these industries
Income If Congress of corporations, la determined on eancting a general tax on
appears not to have been commeneurate with the amount spent by Federal,
State, and local governments. 1 am too well aware of how history manages to
at the expense of (booretical simplification (but of the revenue bill should undistributed be net
ignore prophecy, whether optimietic or pessimistic, to assert without the utmost
Why, for Instance, should Congress Dever completely attainable) equitableness. sought, even
qualification that, in my opinion, democratle government la in danger unless
MM and retain them with wish to avoid "Income brackets" for
business and Industry cope successfully with this problem of unemployment.
bodie undertakes of to Tax ordinary respect to individuals? Insofar the oor-
The question then becomes: How, If at all, can taxation most effectively (V)-
bel the retained net Income, a business corporations, It is as revenue
operate? I offer for the consideration of the committee IL proposal that die
That Encome as II has developed concept which in quite different primarily on the
bursements for replacement of, and additions to, plant and equipment be, to a
Pethaps however, le the basis under The present series of Income-tax from taxable
very limited extent and during il relatively brief period of time, permitted to
relative the Danix Tur acceptable of the surtax under sections 102 laws.
decrease tax liability. The effect should be in Hno with Government polley.
Increase to simple fentative proposals compromise In may be found In and 351.
My tentative suggestion. primarily for consideration and discussion, Is as fol-
(1) Applicable land on bet Income and which the suggested tax the retained following net
lows: That, applicable to the taxable year 1956, disbursements made (and not
(a) to therefrom: on
a special
merely obligations Incurred) for plant and equipment replacement and additions
actually inemilled shall be allowed BA a deduction from ordinary net Income to
THE THE of ordinary net losses not taken problems. Into
the extent of 50 percent of the Amount of the disbursements, but not in excess
also by more than 15 Income percent but in Do event to consideration decrease the
of 20 percent of the ordinary net income: that, applicable to (be taxable year
1937, such disbursements shall be allowed as a deduction to the extent of 30
sod the bands in - of individuals, to to limited. be allowed however, for distribution thereof: of earnings In
percent of the amount of the disbursement, but not to exceed 20 percent of
Dercent If The of the decrease Infortions ordinary net Income to one-third by more than of the amount taxable thereof,
ordinary net Income, 1 trust that no similar provision will be necessary,
desirable, or expedient for the raxable year 1988.
further us the ordinary amount of Det net herme: cornings are taken. ordinary will the be dividend encouraged net tax distributions will be 25 equivalent percent up to thereof. three- to 12
The suggested proposal under 005 given art of rates, under existing law or
regardless of the type of new revenue legislation which may be enacted. would
unquestimably result in decreased revenne: the extimated loss need not be
without
unreasonable-
provided the 10 increased buste tax rates of otherwise, Because of the probability
110
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
111
that business and Increased employment to the heavy-goods Indian
IIII. TREATMENT or DIVIDENTS
tyles would resit In Increased corporate and individual taxable and
Insurance maria prospectively increased employment would at least correspond.
In the 1935 act. by section 102 (h), 10 percent of dividends received by a
legty resture the Government's responsibility for emergency relief
corporation from a domestic corporation was made subject to the normal tax.
During the past 2 years, taxpayers have been permitted deductions The
In the same act, by section 110, the break-up of pyramided corporate structures
deprestation at substantially lower rates than those which were allowed there-
was encouraged by permitting tax-free liquidations over a period of 5 years. In
The tax effect of this poticy, as administered under Treasury Dectsion
the bill under consideration, by section 27 (j) (4), Intercompany dividends are
4422, which was promulgated on February 18. 1984, be Indicated De the reports
subject to maximum taxes, even though the passage of the dividend to the
of the Commissioner of Internal Revenue for 1934 and 1985. From March
parent unit Is expedited and the top corporation makes Immediate disbursement
15 to July 15, 1934, IL total of $248,821,048 of claimed depreciation was dis-
to Its stockholders, Speaking for myself and not for my committee (which was
allowed, resulting to increased texable Income of $242,424,222 and recommended
not consulted about the matter). I feel that the Inevitable result could not have
deficiency assessments of $20,080,304. For the full fiscal year 1935, the lotal
been intended. Punitive taxes directed against corporations frequently burt
dismisswed for claimed depreciation deductions was estimated nt $288,081.925,
Innocent stockholders, 1 believe that the minimum change should exempt from
the rosaltant additional tax at $351,916,414, and the amount of such additional
the application of the subsection (1) corporate groups which are in process of
tax agreed to by taxpayers at $25,032,112 The slower depreciation write
statutory liquidation under section 112 (b) (0) of the DILL, and (2) group Inter-
has undombiedly tended to delay plant replacement. When a capital account
company dividends which are distributed to others than controlling corporations
on the books has been nearly written off, replacement. reserves are currespond-
during the "dividend year" in which received. These corporate groups should
logis large and management le not ne prone to besttate to make replacements
not be foreed to seek lawful means of escape, ruch as La Indiented, for example,
as when machinery still In use appears on the books at a relatively greater
to section 27 (j) (8) of the MIL
value This relardation to replacement has undoubtedly had some appre-
stable as Increased memployment in the capital-goods industries. The
SIV. SPECIAL PROVISION POR AMERICAN-OWNED FOMETON PRIVATE CORPORATIONS
suggestion THE temporary allowance of a limited part of the cost of replace-
most and additions In in addition to the other reasons advanced, predicated
It le no secret to the tax administration and to this committee that high taxes
- the existing depreciation allowance policy.
tend to drive to cover those taxpayers who can escape the tax collector. There
are probably no available statistics relating to the number of Americans who
III. FINANCING THE ACCELERATED BONUS
formed or use foreign corporations for the primary purpose of lawfully minimiz-
ing or avoiding United States taxes. Under the existing law, upon the death of
The President's messige advised Congress that from $120,000,000 to $100,-
stockholders in such corporations, the state is, in effect, wiped clean. Although I
000000 would In required annually Due the marks 9 years to amortize the cost
have not had an opportunity to poll my own committee on the matter, I venture
of the resent loans legislation: in the specific recommendation $120,000,000
to offer the suggestion that Congress might wish to permit the return of souch
was the figure employed. Speaking in what follows for myself alone, I feel
American-owned foreign corporations under terms which would make the return
that It Le a fate assumption that the bonus legislation was enacted because
not too onerous, and thus bring within tax rench funds and transactions which
Congress believed that there Was an overwbelming. popular demand therefor.
otherwise would continue to remain lawfully Immune from American process.
11. in unthinkable that Congress should wish to have the electorate know
Something like analogous precedent for this suggestion may perhaps be found
examily how and to what extent and by whom the burden of financing the
In section 110 of the 1935 act, which appears as section 112 (b) (6) In the revenue
that of the bonus legislation Is home? If a direct (ax Is over justified or
bill. This section, as all of you, especially Senator Sterling, will recall, was
expedient, the financing of popular legislation would seem to provide the
Intended to encourage the break-up of the pyramided corporate structure recently
occusion. (n) Your this reason, 1 Invite your attention, without recommendation,
under eriticism. My suggestion Is to encourage the dissolution of American-
the destrability and expediency of having the cost of the recent bonus
owned foreign private corporations. Two methods suggest themselves:
ingistation home by popular subscription, as If were.
(a) Liquidation of the assets to American stockholders subject to FL But tax of,
In this commetion. I direct your attention to the tiscol possibilities of a
say, 12½ percent of the amount of gain realized, but with no allowance for
tax to on alt. Production of salt in the United States, during 1934, amounted
corresponding losses.
$172,241,480 7,012,074 short tons: a tax of I cent pur pound would be equivalent to
(b) Transfer of the assets to existing or to newly created domestic corpora-
and the Not all of the salt produced is of the table variety, of
tions under conditions and restrictions similar to those tn section 110 of the
the reflaed tax could be so calculated as to be equivalent to 1 cent course,
1935 act.
A wait product, with the resulting tax somewhat less than the per pound on
The privilege referred to should be available during a very Hmited period of
lattative tax. If levied at the point of origin, would not create substantial figure admin- given.
time, say 1 year from the enactment of the governing legislation.
listlead abstract problems fur because 1985, is less the than number 100. of domestic producers, per the sta-
XV, POSTPONEMENT OF BEVENUE LAW TINKERING UNTIL THOROUGH SCIENTIFIC
Naturally, the any commodity tax which Congress bilght decide
REVICION to POSSIBLE
las, svoid constitutional pitfull which proved the undoing of to the impose processing would
I believe IL must have been made abundantly Hear that the nm under crin-
Primarily refer to for the purpose of reminding you of their
adderation la not an Ideal revenue measure. It is equally obvious that the
alm Chemselves to three simple other levies commodities which, at least administratively, tax potentialities, also I shall lend
proposal does not pretend to be a fundamental revision of our entire scheme
of taxation. Our tax laws are In need of acientific and fundamental revision,
The March domestic consumption of sugar during 1985
It may or may not be feasible in the process of revision to cooperate with
initial at the of import this was la Imported. If a tax of is 1 cent given ns 6,632,510 short be
State taxing authorities. There are those who believe, however, that much
reflarry, The Import the yield would point approximate and, with over respect to the domestic per product, pound could at the
may be done to extend the existing legislativo and administrative cooperation
between the Nation and the States,
770,000 pennds, of coffee Into the United States $130,000,000. during
For all of the reasons which have been advanced I venture to recommend
as If an enfree Importe duty, A would tax of viebi a cents about per 1985 amounted easy of collection to 1,504.-
(1) That the plecement Unkering Implieit In the revenue MII be abondoped.
(2) That (emporary emergency revenue. strictly limited to an essential
during about 80,200,000, 1903 were amounted while subject % to tax to 195,705,000. tax, of 20 ten cents should A per tax pound also of 10 be cents taxable. per pound The import would of yield ten
and Irreducible minimum, be provided for the current and for the next fiscal
year through one or more of the following sources: Increased rates on corpo-
rate Income, Increased normal rates on individual income, reduced personal
Would
yield
about
$19,000,000.
exemption, subjecting dividends received by Individuals to the normal tax,
Regraded Unclassified
112
REVENUE AUT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
113
one THE nouresident attens and corporations, a annual unit tax on une or
Senator BLACK Is your business incorporated, or a partnership?
communities.
(3) That Our Joint Compresisonal Committee on Tabation, or a special Jotot
Mr. LANE It is meorporated, A close corporation, with only about
congrestonal committee, should be forthwith assigned to the their or studying
75 stockholders.
OUT tax systems and discul needs and to report Its findings and recommendations
Senator BARKLEY. What in the capital stock?
by March 1, 1147.
Mr. LANE. We have 10,000 shares no par-value stock, and our
The CHAIRMAN. The next witness listed is Mr. Satterlee, of New
present capital is about IN million dollars.
York City, I hear no response, and apparently he is not here,
We started with a capital in the beginning of $18,000 and we
Mr. Lane is the next witness.
added to it from time to time, until it got to about $189,000.
Between 1912 and 1915 if we had had to pay additional taxes on
STATEMENT OF E. H. LANE, THE LANE CO., INC., ALTA VISTA, VA.
this business 1 think we would have gone broke, because we were
just about a half a jump ahead of the sheriff all of the time, and
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, you are from Virginia ?
under this proposed bill we would have had to pay $2,100 of taxes
Mr. LANE Yes, sir,
in that period, whereas we did not pay anything under the old tax
The CHAIRMAN. We will give you 20 minutes, Mr. Lane, and if
law in effect at that time.
you enn get through in less time, we will appreciate it, but if you
Senator BARKLEY. You are going back to 1912, there was not any
do not finish, if you will state your proposition, you may put your
brief in the record.
corporation tax at all at that time?
Mr. LANE I understand, that is correct, it was not until 1913, but
Mr. LANE Mr. Chairman, I guess that a businessman to come up
the point I am trying to make, if we had had any additional taxes
here is taking a lot of nerve, because it seems that for the last few
years it has been a sort of open season for businessmen.
to pay, it might have rubbed us out.
Senator BARKLEY. If you had had that tax, you would have taken
We started a little business down in Virginia in 1912, and when
it into consideration in the profit on your commodities?
this now tax bill was presented we began to visualize what that
Mr. LANE. Well, Senator, I do not know how long it has been since
would have done if that had been in effect during the years of our
business existence, not 80 much that it can go back and hurt us over
you have been conducting a business of this kind, but if you have
these years but the fact is we have about 3,500 dealers in this country,
been, you know that it is the public that sets the prices.
a lot of whom have lost a good part of their working capital.
We paid $1,200 taxes in that period, and the bank gave us all they
Senator BAUKLEY. What is your business; you have not stated it!
could, we got every nickel we could by pledging all of the security
we had, even using our accounts receivable, which is the last card
things of that kind.
Mr. LANE I am a manufacturer of furniture, cedar chests and
a manufacturer has to get money, and by putting mortgages on our
Senator BARKLEY. Household furniture?
Mr. LANE Yes, sir.
property. We have a lot of customers who are today in the same fix.
In 1912 to 1918, which covers a greater period, our company made
Senator CONNALLY, You are from Marion, Va.?
these who dealers we will to, they are of varying credit, first-grade credit,
Mr. LANE Alta Vista, Va, a small town near Lynchburg. Of
a profit of $35,000.
Senator HASTINGS. During the first 7 years?
which discount their bills and all such things; the second-grade
Mr. LANE Yes, sir.
credit is a lesser grade, and the third-grade credit, which credit, means
Senator HASTINOS. $35,000 for the whole period of time!
of almost any kind.
Mr. LANE. Yes; and paid out approximately 10 percent of that,
any presion. ahead I was speaking from my own point of I would
A lot of If them have lost their working capital during the de-
or some $3,000.
Senator HASTINGS. For what?
capital go in and pass the law for the reason have view,
Mr. LANE. For dividends, and we paid out approximately the
their our business. We have a lot of competitors We sufficient
same amount in taxes, to be exact, $2,937 paid in taxes during that
for lts capital to during the depression, and it would be that who have lost
period. Under this new bill, we would have had to pay $12,500 or
capital stay in the industry, because we much easier
35.7 percent of all of our earnings in that time.
would not market, but we have competitors that can cannot get capital from and they the
Senator HASTINGS. You mean on the profit you made of $35,000,
We have require enough capital to interest the get it,
as you understand this bill, you would have had to that tax?
they were about 1,500 dealers who we are afraid of general market. be-
Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. I would like to my there are some provi-
expital cause position so impaired in the last depression. going broke
sions in this bill for companies who have fixed debts and that kind
of thing, that, which 1 dare say, figures out better, but we do not
and We are worried has over been that, impaired because somewhat if dealers in the Inst I will depression, say our
understand how it would be,
will pall the down.
our
Senator BLACK. Would you mind putting down the profit you
Insiness I have if tried this to proposed prepare tax a little law picture of what will go happen broke, to they our
made each year so that we could have it figured out, because if I un-
derstand the bill it would not have been that much tax.
in The business, CHAIRMAN. and I can Just give give that us a in had brief a brief been statement form, in effect or of go during it, into our detail. period
Mr. LANE I will be glad to put in those figures.
Senator BARKLEY. Your figures are before or after you paid the
stockholders!
Regraded Unclassified
110
BEVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE AUT, 1988
115
Mr. LANE From 1912 to 1918 we paid out 8,6 percent of our earn.
logs in dividends. and the taxes amounted to 8.8 percent for the
Mr. LANE Mr. Chairman, I will answer this way, last year we
period, an that the Government got. approximately as much as the
spent about $80,000 in Improvemente in our plant, and this year we
stockholders did. But under this bill it would be approximately
are planning to spend $110,000 in improvements.
30.7 percent paid out in taxés.
We could use our reserve to increase working capital, but we would
Senator BARRLEY. The tax of 85.7 percent was on the total that
have to become static in capital, and could not grow any more, as we
remained in the corporation; you did not pay n corporation tax on
see it. I cannot understand this tax bill and 1 have had lawyers,
what you distributed to your stockholders, although they may have
tax experts, and everybody èlso try to explain it, and I cannot under-
paid It
stand it at all.
The CHAIRMAN. They paid this on the profits of the corporation.
The CHAIRMAN. Suppose five people owned this plant of yours,
Senator BARKLEY. Back in 1913?
and it WAS a partnership instead of a corporation, they would have
Senator KING. As I understand, this is 1912 to 1918.
to pay on their individual incomes, would they not!
Mr. LANE That is correct.
Mr. LANE Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. How do you distinguish between them? If a
Senator BLACK. Would you mind putting down the figures of the
profit for each year so that we can figure that out on what you
corporation should pay some amount, why should favoritism be
reserved? 1 believe you said you made $35,000 in that period.
shown a corporation as against an individual!
Mr. LANE Yes, sir; from 1912 to 1918.
Mr. LANE. As I understand a copartnership, ne a rule there are not
Senator BLACK. Do you have it by years!
very many partners, and they can get together and decide what they
Mr. LANE I can furnish it by years, but I haven't it here except
want to do for the good of the business, but we are just trustees of
in bulk.
some property as managers of the corporation, and we have the stock-
Senator BLACK. Do you have your net income for each year there!
holders looking to us to look after their interests, that never come
] thought we could use, and you would like to see,
Mr. LANE. No, sir; not here. I just brought some balk data that
to a meeting even.
The CHAIRMAN. From governmental standards why should a cor-
Senator BLACK. Was it about even each year!
poration be put under more favorable circumstances than a partner-
money. Mr. LANE No, some years we had n. loss and other years we made
ship when it comes to collecting taxes!
Mr. LANE. Mr. Chairman, I should have said, to start out, that I
Senator BLACK. You kept all of this in your business?
am just a businessman, I am not an expert like Mr. Klein, and I
Mr. LANE. Yes, we kept all of that $85,000 in the business, except
did not come up here to tell you what kind of taxes to put on, nor
$3,096 paid out in dividends, and $2,937 we paid in taxes.
to oppose this scheme of taxation. Mr. Lawson, our vice president,
five Mr. thousand dollars is the profit from 1912 to 1918,
Senator BARKLEY. Let me see if I have that correctly. Thirty-
knows more about taxation that I do.
The CHAIRMAN. Does it not appear to you as n layman that it is
that LANE is No; that is the total profit for the entire annually! period, and the
a fair thing from a governmental standpoint that a corporation
point is worrying me about our accounts is that when
should not be put in a more favorable position than an individual
get, young, and this trying to go ahead, it needs every bit of strength a concern it
in paying taxes?
had bill will sap the strength away from them. can
Mr. LANE Yes, sir: I think so, from is layman's viewpoint.
last competitors all of their working that lost capital. a lot of money in the depression, practically We have
The CHAIRMAN. That is all that is being done here.
Mr. LANE. Yes; but I wonder if it could not be accomplished
Mr. The CHAIRMAN, How would it sap your business?
without putting such a burden on the small corporation. A gentle-
of situation, money we made, whereas it only took something 8 over one-third
the LANE Mr. Chairman, it Was taking
man read this morning a list of 10 corporations who would not pay
any taxes, and the stockholders would not pay any more tax than
not pay and to show we are not making anything percent in the it old we did tax
the 4 percent you are putting on the corporation dividends.
The CHAIRMAN, any dividends to amount to anything in that out of
I know some tobacco corporations last year and the year before
annually? How much are you earning now, period. what is your
who paid out more than they earned during those years, and you
profit
are going to leave them without any taxes at all, and you under-
$160,000 to Mr. the LANE way net, the It Internal fluctuates, Revenue of course, Department Last year, figures I think, it, we according earned
stand what I am interested in is the small corporation struggling
along that is looking for all that it can get. to keep going.
The CHAIRMAN, We are going to give you an amount of reserve
The Mr. LANE CHAIRMAN. Did you declare of it
and there will be no higher tax on that than you have been heretofore
dividends. Yes, sir; we paid approximately any in one-third dividends? of that in
paying, if you analyze that situation.
Mr. LANE. As we analyzed it, Mr. Chairman, this tax as now pro-
paid The out CHAIRMAX. 30 percent Do and you retained think 30 it would percent? have hurt you if you had
posed is going to double our taxes for 3 years over what they were
for 1935, on the same earnings.
Senator BLACK. Double whose taxes?
Mr. LANE. Double our corporation tax.
Regraded Unclassified
110
REVENUE ACT, 1936
BEVENUE ACT, 1936
117
Senator BLACK. Not the little company, but the company The it la
percent in round figure of our profits in dividends since we have been
now,
Mr. LANE. Yes, sir.
in business, but mind you, 84 percent of what We have paid out has
been in the last 19 years of our life, or about one-half of our entire life
Senator BLACK. As a matter of fact, you have figured out enough
to know at the time you are talking about your company being small,
of 24 years.
Senator BARRIEY How many stockholders did you have when you
it would have gotten out on a much smaller tax than the IS percent,
Mr. LANE. No; I have not figured that out.
first organized?
Mr. LANE When we first started we had two, my father and myself.
Senator BLACK. Yes; that would be true, and it would be better
Senator BARRIEY. As your business grew your neighbors and
for the small corporation.
freinds bought stock!
survive. Mr. LANE The less tax they have to pay, the longer they will
Mr. LANE. Yes; we pleaded with them to help us out.
Senator BARKLEY. Your stock is not registered on the stock
Senator CONNALLY. How does your company handle the income
that you expect to retain as reserve on surplus?
exchange! Mr. LANE No, sir; it used to be registered at Richnsond, but when
Mr. LAXE I think I can answer that question best by what We
the Securities Exchange came on, we dropped it, NO OF not to be
have done.
bothered with making the reports.
company. Senator CONNALLY. I am talking about the experience of your
Senator BARKLEY. There is not much trading in your stock?
Mr. LANE Very little,
Mr. LANE I will give what we have done in the disposition of
The CHAIRMAN. Suppose you and your father had continued this
our earnings.
business as partners when you first started, have you figured out how
Since we have been in business, since 1912, 29.9 percent of our
much tax you would have paid as individuals, as compared with what
amets, earnings since we started in business has been reinvested in fixed
you would have to pay under this bill?
Mr. LANE. No, sir; I have not.
Senator CONNAILY. If you do that in the future, you will not
The CHAIRMAN, It would be a greater amount?
any more tax than you do now, because you retain 30 percent in sur- pay
Mr. LANE 1 presume it would be from what I have learned from
plus and reserve, and you will then not pay as much as you do now.
Mr. LANE I am not a sufficient financial expert to say, sir.
copartnership arrangements. But my judgment is that could be cor-
rected. It would seem to be it is important for a corporation to have
Senator CONNALLY. All right, you may go ahead.
Mr. LANE. As I say, 29.9 percent reinvested. It took 23 percent
a good start, because the point I am trying to stréss is from my own
experience, Mr. Chairman, how utterly necessary it is to keep every
duction more of our earnings to increase fixed capital to take care of the
penny you can get hold of in your embryonic years BS ii. corporation.
mately 53 that the increase brought about. So that there is pro-
The CHAIRMAN. Yes; you have got to keep some money in the
period for or 54 percent that it took of our total earnings during approxi- that
business, you have got to enlarge, but if it is a copartnership and
working capital. improving conditions of the plant and increasing net
they are paying taxes much higher than the corporation, and what
Senator did that Connally, How much do you figure you would if
we are trying to do is to put them on an even keel.
Mr. LAXE. I think it is an unfairness that should be corrected in
you and distribute under it and this keep bill, 50 say, percent? if you take 50 percent of the earnings pay
some may, but I am not sure the present one is the way to do it,
since we calculate that in 1918 our company would have passed out of
year
Mr. were LANE $160,000. I cannot answer that. I can only say the earnings last
the picture if we had been compelled to pay taxes on the basis set up
this Senator bill, how BARKLEY. much would If you the keep tax $80,000 bef and pay out $80,000 under
in this proposed bill.
Senator CONNALLY. Mr. Chairman, Mr. Kent has those figures
Kent Senstor is doing CONNALLY. Mr. Kent, can you figure that
now. The CHAIRMAN. Will you state the result of what you have figured?
of your company that, is, Mr. Lane, just go ahead and state out? what the While capital Mr.
Mr. KENT. Since the corporation here was realizing IL net income
of $10,000 or less, if it retained 50 percent of its adjusted net income
a a a
it would pay a tax at the rate of 18.5 percent; 31.5 percent under those
circumstances would be distributed in dividends to the shareholders.
Senator Mr. TAXE CONNALLY. That is a very good profit,
The CHAIRMAN. Eighteen and five-tenths percent of what was dis-
Senator Yes: but We have got to look back to 16 percent. 1933.
Mr. LANE CONNALLY. We are out of the woods 1932 and
tributed. Mr. KENT. Eighteen and five-tenths percent of its net income.
The CHAIRMAN. Its net income was how much, did you say!
woods Senator now, BANKLEY. We No. are I looking don't think for the 80; next but if so, while on that we are now. out of the
Mr. KENT. Say they had $10,000 of net income, they retained
$5,000 in surplus, and they would pay taxes of $1,850 and would pay
think Mr. that LANE answers Yes, sir, your You We question are paid looking out of awhile 31.8 for depression. percent the ago, next We for depression have dividends, paid out and 32 I
out dividends of $1,500, and when they get into the higher income is
groups between $10,000 and $40,000, under schedule 3, there a
Regraded Unclassified
118
REVRNUE ACT, 1936
BEVENUE AUT, 1946
119
somewhat different rate, and after they get paid $40,000 they would
pay 35 percent.
a lower rate than you would have if you had been an individual or
Mr. LISE We earned Inst year $160,000, and retained half of that;
partnership?
how much would the tax be on the rest?
Mr. LANE They have a perfect right to organizo a corporation any
Mr. KENT. If my arithmetic is correct, it would be about $50,000;
time they get ready.
but that does not take into account there are other means of keeping
Senator CONNALLY. Yes: that is correct.
the money without paying the maximum tax,
Mr. LANK That is what I would do; I would never operate M per-
Mr. LANE That still leaves us where we cannot learn much about
sonal business instead of a corporation.
the law from the study we have been doing since the President sug-
Senator CONNALLY. You have paid less taxes because you: were not
gested Committee. it and since we got the first report from the Ways and Means
n. partnership.
Mr. LANE Yes; there was no corporation tax when we organized,
depletion, amortization and all of that figured off
Senator CONNALLY. This $160,000 profit you made, was that after
Senator BARKLEY. There are other advantages of organizing as a
corporation, because you are only liable to the amount of your stock.
Mr. LANE, Yes; that is net profit,
Mr. LANE. Yes; and we were glad from 1912 to 1922 that we were a
Senator CONNALLY. For income-tax purposes!
corporation. I heard the statement this morning-that if we wanted
Mr. LANE, Yes, sir.
to keep our profits in our business we could offer stock rights and
Senator HASTINGS. Was it after the taxes were paid?
things of that kind to our stockholders. That might sound like a
Mr. LANE After all taxes, but no dividends.
remedy, but in between 1912 and 1922, if our stockholders had ever
Senator HASTINGS. You did not deduct the income tax from that
gotten hold of any of our earnings as profit they would have taken
Mr. LANE. No, sir, In this connection I might say our books do
them and run with them; they would never put them back into the
not agree with the Internal Revenue Department because they do
business, If I could have gotten half of mine at that time I would
not allow The to count off taxes the depreciation we have. Our
have said to the creditors, "You can have the rest of it,"
perience the teaches us we have an obsolescence factor in equipment from ex-
You must understand the small corporations have no access to the
years, recognize. but they will not recognize those things we think they should
standpoint of style changes, of which we have had four in 24
capital markets when they can only get money by solling stock to
friends and borrowing from the banks and things of that kind, and
under this bill I don't see how a small corporation ever can get any-
Mr. The CHAIRMAN. Is that due to the peculiar styles of furniture?
where.
LANE, Yes, sir; that is correct.
The CHAIRMAN. But you are pretty much out of that class now.
Senator Mr. KING. You are not making any solid furniture?
Mr. LANE. We just claim we are green country boys trying to make
LANE, Yes, we do; but we are specialty manufacturers, mak-
a living.
ing primarily cedar chests.
Senator HASTINGS. Would you mind telling how many shares the
other manufacturers?
The CHAIRMAN. You will admit you make as good furniture as any
largest stockholder holds in that corporation!
Mr. LANE. I own the largest number-35 percent of 10,000 shares.
Mr. LANE Yes; of course.
Senator HASTINGS. Are you engaged in any other basiness!
Mr. Senator LANE BARKLEY. You do not make any antique
Mr. LANE. No; this keeps me plenty busy; and during the last 8
of we do not make Vernon furniture, but that is high-priced a duplicate
the Mount Not much, but we have a set of furniture, furniture?
years I have been kept busier than I want to be, because we have to
look after our business and watch Washington all at the same time.
of being any money out of it. Our cedar furniture, and
Senator BARKLEY. And you do not want Washington to exercise the
in it and nationally can make some advertised, money on we it. can get a volume chests, of production on account
same supervision over you!
Senator BLACK. You say in the last 3 years you have been watching
The of CHAIRMAN. figures If you want to, one of the
Washington?
sition thing about it. will be glad to cooperate with you experts and on tell this you propo- every-
Mr. LANE. Yes, sir.
Senator BLACK. You did not have time to watch Washington in
want Mr. to LANE this: I think we have learned lot
1932?
1918 and my 1922, if these We know taxes that had twice a during today, our gentlemen, business career, but I
Mr. LANE. I have had more time than in a long while recently,
and I could play golf in those years, but not the last couple of years;
to law totally the that to insolvent, be existed three at and because that n. half time, the times taxes been what proposed in they effect under would we this be would under bill have appeared the been old
I haven't had time.
We talked this matter over with n concern in Lynchburg, and
took his figures and projected them since he started in 1916 with the
corporation. Senator CONNALLY. you would If have you been had "busted"} been a partnership instend of a
figures under this proposed tax bill. We do not claim it would have
put him out of business, but at times he would have had a heavy
squeeze. In 1912 we started working 12 men, and today be work about
and paying the higher taxes? about the You individuals have been that are partner-
500, and over 400 in the plant. We figure if this tax had been applied
getting
off
with
Regraded Unclassified
CAO
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1946
12:
- would have been working about 200 today-just about half as
We believe a good deal of the suffering of the Inst depression Plan
many.
If me had not had working capital in 1931, 1932, and the early
due to income taxes. By business in the last 20 years, because history
part of 1933, we would have discharged half of the employees we
teaches QA we have fat and lean years, and if we do not lay asido for
had and out the wages of the rest of them as much BM We could and
the lean years while business is good in the fat years, we will be put
tried to make some money in those years, but we did have working
out of business in the lean yours.
capital and we kept all of our people on, except only those who
If it is politically impossible to enact a sound basis of taxation
dropped out of their own accord and we did not take back. We
from an economic standpoint and you feel il is necesary to increase
the Government's revenue through taxation, thep why not continue
worked them short hours, sometimes 12 or 15 hours IL week; we took
our loss, but tried to keep those people busy. If we had not had
the present basis and increases the rate to the amount absolutely
working capital we could not have done that.
necessary to be raised, then we can calculate, as we already know
how much reserve we have to not aside to meet those taxes,
Frankly, when we projected this little expansion program last
The CHAIRMAN, Have you any idea how much we would have to
November and December which we are working out now, if I had
increase the flat corporation tax in order to raise the money We have
dreamed then this new tax bill was contemplated, I would not have
to raise this year?
put on this expansion program. We just bought a machine yester-
Mr. LANE I have not figured that out, but if your tax is, roughly,
day, a big triple-drum sander from a concern in Wisconsin.
15 percent, if you raise it to 30 you ought to double it. I don't know
Senator CONNALLY. You bought it yesterday, when you knew about
this bill?
how much you would lose in the shuffle, because the higher you raise
it the more ways will be found to evade it.
Mr. LANE We had the building all ready, and we had to put
If you increase it 5 percent, you will increase it a third; then if
sold in 6 months
something in it. They told Us that is the third machine they have
you want to tax the surplus, or make an experimental tax like Mr.
Klein suggested, I think it would be a good idea.
Senator BLACK, Did they tell you how many they sold in 1932?
It section to me unsound to try to trade a certainty for an uncer-
some back,
Mr. LANE I presume they did not séll any, and probably they took
tainty. You know how much revenue the present taxes will raise,
and you can estimate quickly how much IL certain increase in the
however ! The CHAIRMAN. Business has improved in your line of business,
present tax will yield. The Treasury Department can estimate what
the taxes will yield on the basis of 1934.
has not improved yet, with the exception of a few.
Mr. LANE I think it has improved, but the capital-goods industry
This tax closely approaches, if it does not actually reach, con-
fiscation.
improving. The CHAIRMAN. That is the general impression, that business is
In other words, you are under this bill eating the seed corn.
I have always thought that all of us have just learned how to
Mr. LANE That is true. Frankly, I am not here throwing rocks
make out the old returns and the law has not been radically changed
at anybody: 1 have been a Democrat all of my life, but if could
enough that we cannot still have lawyers and tax experts to make out
be bext will month. be 80 glad when you fellows adjourn, which I hope will
riff, I and let us see where we can go, we will be a lot better
get legislation, off our backs for a while, quit threatening us with all you types of
our returns, but on this new bill I have had lawyers and experts
figuring it, trying to find what our tax would be on last year's in-
come, and no two agree about it. This is the most complicated thing
ever suggested in the history of the world on taxation, and I defy
Pass tax bill!
Senator this BARKLEY. You would rather we would adjourn before we
any man in Congress, as he goes along in the year, to figure within
against Mr. LANE I surely do, This new law to us seems
25 percent of how much he will have to set aside for a commitment
on this tax.
musly plowing back the profits into the business. It a provision
The CHAIRMAN. You could do that in December.
Insiness injure the capital-goods industry, large will seri-
Mr. LANE. Yes; but the year is over, and supposing you have spent
ties, and we should believe be allowed against profits used in its present form,
then credit this act is passed in anything like expand business
facilities. they If get is the result of profits being ns used a to percent of the
something in improvements. At the present time we can tell how
much taxes we have to set aside each month.
Senator BARKLEY. You do not have to estimate the amount of taxes
Of contre, that ought to be done if it could increasing facili-
until the tax year has passed, and you have 3 months in which to
ring ment, and the power from individuals and business you are transfer-
spending you realize when you increase taxes be made workable.
figure it all out before you make out the return, and it is the same
proposition, depreciation, depletion, bad debts and all of that in in-
(II) have to more you so take the less individuals and to the Govern-
volved in the present law, so that you have to go through the same
people, I am because just expend, we haven't that anything we cannot to be employ responsible them private for reemploying industry
tabulation to arrive at your net income under this bill, as you do now.
You may be able to get some additional credits under this bill that
rough. and 1 approciate giving your you attitude, as a layman because the you businessmen's are not treating with. point of me view, very
you do not get now, but after you have arrived at your net income for
the year, then the only question is how much you are going to dis-
tribute, and when you have decided how much you are going to dis-
Regraded Unclassified
122
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
123
you only worry about the part you keep.
tribute, then you do not have to worry about the part you distribute,
income Inx and pay for the improvements and replenish our work-
Then, there is no more obligation on what you keep than there in
ing capital position,
al the present time.
That is why I say if I had known this law was going to be offered
Mr. LANE I do not see as a practical business man, myself, how we
I would not have made these improvements.
could tell na we go along during the year what your tax will be.
Senator BARKLEY. Suppose I owned a factory that has made
Senator BARKLEY. You cannot do it now.
$160,000 a year profit, as an individual, and 1 wanted to build a new
Mr. LANE Yes; we can estimate it closely now.
plant, and I put that $160,000 in a new plant, I would have to pay
Senator BARKLEY. You do not know how much the income for
taxes, I take it, in the $160,000 bracket, would I not!
the year will be until the year is over?
Mr. LANE Yes: and I tell you if this tax bill gues through, I
by the number of months, and come very close to it.
Mr. LANE But we can take the profit each month and multiply it
wish you owned the plant.
Senator BABKLEY. And that bracket would be higher than you
Senator BARKLEY. You have got to arrive at your taxable income
pay as a corporation!
after the year has passed and you have gotten all of the credit
Mr. LANE. That is true, as I understand it, but do you believe, if
think you are entitled to. In the first place, you file the income you tax
you are conducting a business of this size under the present condi-
according to what you think, then they come along and check it
tions, you would conduct it as in copartnership!
and maybe you do not agree, but finally it is settled. The compli- up,
Senator BARKLEY. No; I would not, but there are people who do.
cations in making out an income-tax return, it seems to me, will not
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, you made those contracts you referred
be greater than they are now; and one advantage, you only pay one
to prior to March a of this year?
now. tax, you haven't got to worry about all of the other taxes you pay
Mr. LANE. We signed the contract January 15 of this year.
The CHAIRMAN. Then this bill helps you out on that proposition.
Mr. LANE As I said, we have gotten to the point where we
Mr. LANE We did not go into it without money.
estimate what our taxes are for the year by multiplying by the can
The CHAIRMAN. This is on the money you made last year.
of ings to date, and under the new bill you cannot tell until the earn- end
Mr. LANE, But I cannot replenish my working capital position
the year what it will be.
under that,
Senator GEORGE. Your position is you are doing business all
There is one other thought I would like to give you. We believe
year get to make our your tax return!
the year, to every day, and you are not watching for the end of the of
the principle upon which this new corporation tax law is based is
absolutely unsound. In the first place, the Government takes upon
Mr. LANE Yes; and suppose we pay quarterly, like
itself the responsibility of conducting the business by reason of its
tax, we pay what dividends: can we do? then if we haven't got money enough we to do, pay and the
earnings it must pay out in dividends or suffer the penalty, without
at the same time assuming the responsibility for the damage such
The it CHAIRMAN. There is a provision here that you can have them
action might cause to the business in the future.
carry over if you pay out too much,
In other words, the Government assumes the prerogative of man-
Mr. LANE Yes, sir,
agement without assuming the responsibility for results.
Senator that Brun. You say you earned $160,000;
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you very much, Mr. Lane.
pay vested them? $160,000 in new plant, how much tax would suppose you you have in- to
The CHAIRMAN, The next witness is Mr. Paul H. Wilson, of
Worcester, Mass.
cash, need money for it. As we go along during kept
Mr. as LANE I understand We would have to pay ns much as if we had the
STATEMENT OF PAUL H. WILSON, REPRESENTING THE GRATON
and to take care fixed of assets, in order to make a certain the year, if we
& KNIGHT CO., WORCESTER, MASS.
much any supply of chests, style of chest
current money position. we will have for that purpose we without cannot determine changing how our
The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wilson, can you get through in 15 minutes?
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.
that Senator prior Byrn: the One other point, one of the
The CHAIRMAN. You represent the Graton & Knight Co.?
tracted tracted to build to a passage plant, and of this in bill a corporation last points may made have here, con-
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. What business are they engaged int
for Mr. this LANE to year. build Yes: then a plant, clearly you would and that invested pay your 42 the percent circunistances, $160,000 taxes, of your you had earnings con-
Mr. WILSON, The tanning of hides, fabricating hides and leather,
leather belting, and leather products.
The CHAIRMAN. If you have a brief and want to put it in the
ing we fortable earned capital $160,000 position last to pay year, ont and comes We had down enough to us money this year, in in that
record, that will be all right, and then you can point out the main
points to us, if you want.
could BE it is in during the fall, the spring and senson, $110,000 when and the still business be reasonably is our work- com-
Mr. WILSON. I am secretary and comptroller of the company and
have been with this company for 27 years. I have been secretary of
take all of this year's pay profit for our we needed improvements, except the expecting not 15-percent as much we
the company since 1926.
Regraded Unclassified
124
ERVENUE ACT. 1930
REVENUE ACT, 1926
125
I am appearing before this committee at my own request and on
behalf of the Graton & Knight Co. The purpose of my coming here
During the years 1922 to 1985, inclusive, the company earned about
to to point out to this committee the ill effects the proposed tax law
$625,000, and these profits, together with the cash realized by IS redue-
will have upon this corporation: Under the provisions of section 18,
tion in inventories, was used to liquidate the company's indebtedness.
the Graton & Knight Co. will be required to pay a tax of 20% pvr-
In 1927 the company aucceeded in putting a bond issue, the pro-
rent on its income, which in an increase of 50 percent, which increase
ceeda of which were used to pay off bank loans.
or ATT undue hardship under the present conditions.
Senator KING (interposing). May I interrupt you at this point,
This company was organized in 1851 and has been doing business
Mr. Wilson! Had you redeemed the first INSURE of bonds, the
continuously since that date. Its business, 03 I have said, is the tan-
$700,0001
ming of hides, manufacture of leather belting and leather products.
Mr. WILSON, This is the same issue that I am referring to, They
Our present capitalization as of January 1, 1936, is us follows:
were issued in 1927.
Proforred stock, 20,045.6 shares, $2,056,500; common stock, 83,220
Senator KING. I see.
shares, $1,007,875; surplus, paid in and earned, $711,112.40; making
Mr. WILSON, The terms of the indenture were very strict and
0 total of $3,805,547.40.
rigid. In that indenture we agreed at all times to maintain a certain
Our outstanding preferred stock, consisting of 20,549.2 shares is
amount of net tangible assets, These terms, we were told, were noces-
held by 1,505 individuals, averaging 13.7 shares per person.
sary in order to sell the bonds. At the present time we nro in techni-
Our outstanding common stock, consisting of 82,977.8 shares, is
eal default on these bonds, because of this particular section, in the
beld by 1,782 individuals, with an average holding of 47.0 shares.
amount of $370,000. We have been advised by our counsel that it
The stock of the Graton & Knight Co. is widely distributed.
would be illegal for us to pay any dividends on any stock as long
In addition to the preferred stock and common stock outstanding,
as we are in default on our mortgage indenture,
the company, after it was reorganized in 1926 issued bonds $1,750.-
Because of the terms of the mortgage indenture, the company can-
000, of which $1,148,500 are still outstanding. The indentures secur-
not pay dividends, as its earnings are required to meet the sinking
ingr the bonds provides for an annual sinking fund of $75,000.
fund and other provisions of the mortgage, yet. under section 15 the
people, does business in every State in the Union, and has small
The company at the present time employs approximately 1,200
tax on its earnings is at the rate of 221/2 percent. Under the present
law the tax would be at the rate of 15 percent or less, and this in-
factory in Shanghai, China, and branches in Canada, England, a
crease of 50 percent on the present tax is a further burden on a. cor-
India. The and dealer representations in other countries of the world.
poration which is trying to keep going ahead. I believe also that
existence up to and including the year 1919. To that time the entire com-
company had a very prosperous period through its
this section 15 should be further clarified so that Graton & Knight
Co. and other corporations in smiliar situations would be sure to
pany distributed large amounts in dividends yearly.
obtain relief under the section.
such United States Government for the manufacturing of with the
During the World War our company had large contracts
Our bond indenture does not specifically state that we shall not pay
dividends but does state that our assets shall be maintained at a cor-
the DE scabbards, gun slings, holsters, and many other war materials,
tain fixed amount as long as any bonds remain outstanding and fin-
nume request of of the United States Government, we expended articles, At
paid. This provision prevents the payment of dividends. A failure
the purchase money during the war years in the erection of large
in the payment of sinking funds would constitute it default under
production of of large quantities of leather and other buildings and
the terms of the mortgage, and the rights of all stockholders would
inventory We of IL plant capacity far in excess of our needs, close of the
war had war materials. Immediately after the supplies for
be in jeopardy.
Senator KING. Have you maintained your sinking fund since the
purposes. leather and supplies purchased primarily and for a large war
bond issue?
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.
At the and end were of the year 1918 we had an inventory valued at
Our company is one whose earnings are seriously affected by nmr-
661.08 funds in the indebted to banks and other $11,001,-
ket prices of raw materials, namely, hides. During the past 10
due in part losses, to reduced but during 1920 and 1921 heavy 1919 losses we were did not suffer
financial amount of $6,148,500. During parties for borrowed
years we have seen some very violent fluctuations in the prices of
hides. Our inventories have always been taken on the basis of cost
on raw materials, sales volume, but mainly sustained
or market, whichever is lower, and due to these wide fluctuations of
period. In these 2 most of which were purchased to receding prices
high prices, our inventory losses in the past have been large. On the
$4,865,000 Our deficit a total at of $7,650,000. years our losses were, 1920, $2,785,000; during the 1931, war
basis of our present inventory a difference of 1 cent per pound on
hide prices is equivalent to approximately $140,000 on our total inven-
dividends paid were during discontinued 1920. the but on end the early of common in 1921 1921 was dividends, $3,567,000. after Dividends one payment, were
tory, which at present is approximately $3,000,000.
Senator KING. You mean the personal property amounts to
$3,000,0001
nis Were the common were paid stock on since the preferred. 1921, A stock, portion No and dividends of only three have been quarterly paid
Mr. WILSON. That is the inventory itself.
paid in scrip,
Senator KING. All of your assets!
the
1921
dividends
Mr. WILSON. No, air: all of the inventory, including hides and
leather in the process of tanning. I might say, that is, on the first
126
REVENUE ACT, 1930
REVENUE ACT, 1936
127
of the year the price of steer hides Was 14½ cents; today it in ta
The CHAIRMAN. About what percentage do you set. aside when you
mile, That reduction has wiped out practically all of our earnings
are making 11 profitt
for the year 1935.
Mr. WILSON. We have never carried out any consistent policy of
The CHAIRMAN. You cannot hedge?
setting up & specified amount, but I would may about 50 percent,
Mr. WILSON, It is rather risky.
The CHAIRMAN. You do not practice it.
depending upon the size of our earnings,
The CHAIRMAN. You would not pay much more tax under this
Mr. WILSON. We do not.
bill on a percent reserve than under the present law, would you?
We have had the unfortunate experience of having hide prices
Mr. WILSON, My interpretation is we would pay 35 percent, if
drop very auddenly at the end of the year, which has resulted in
we did not get any relief.
large inventory losses for us, compelling us to show losses for the
The CHAIRMAN. If the reserve is 30 percent, you would only pay
1 year, and largo profits for the succeeding year, simply because
15 percent, would you not-never mind, I do not want to go into
we have had to price our inventories on the basis of cost or market,
all of that.
whichever was lower. In the year 1982, because of this condition,
Mr. WILSON. The existing income-tax laws, which do not allow
we showed a loss of $923,000, whereas in 1933 our profits amounted
us to carry over losses, applying them against the profits of suc-
to $401,000. A large part of the profit in 1933 was due to the
increase in hide prices.
ceeding years, creates a hardship on the company. Increases or
decreases in our inventory values do not create actual profits or
host The CHAIRMAN. What was it last year; did it show a profit or
losses. Profits or losses on book inventory values are book profits
or losses only. Actual profits or losses accrue to the company only
Mr. Wirson. Last year we showed n profit of about $211,000.
The CHAIRMAN. What was it in 1934?
when the inventory is full fabricated and sold.
Due to the nature of our business, our inventory turnover is
1934. Mr. Witson. As I remember, we lost about $200,000 in the year
small, and to a certain extent it is impossible to avoid suffering great
Senator KING. And in 1985?
losses when hide prices recede.
Due to the losses which this company has suffered since 1926, due
for taxes of about $40,000.
Mr. Wilmox, We made about $211,000, after setting up a reserve
to the depression and other causes, amounting to $1,259,000, our
The CHAIRMAN. It has been the character of your business to
working capital has been impaired. We believe the only possible
fluctuate from one year to another?
way to get working capital to carry on will be through earnings.
Mr. WILSON, Yes, sir.
During the 10 years referred to, 1926 to 1935, inclusive, with
deficits or losses amounting to $1,259,000, it is interesting to nota
your reserve rather than pay dividends!
Senator KING. Is it your position it is your problem to build up
that our city, State, and Federal taxes for the same period of years
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.
amounted to $886,236.
is especially injurious in your opinion?
Senator KING. So that any tax levied upon that reserve or surplus
Senator KING. You have to pay that amount of taxes in that
time?
Mr. Wilson, We believe so.
Mr. WILSON. In those 10 years, sir. The first part, from 1926
Senator KING. And if you had a deficit you would be in greater
to 1929, our profits were $990,000, and from 1930 to 1935, inclusive,
default with respect to the obligations on your bonds?
our losses were $2,249,000.
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.
The management of this company adopted at the very beginning
minuto? Senator King. You might even be forced into bankruptcy any
of the depression a policy of releasing no employee who has depend-
ents, unless absolutely necessary. While the employees' hours were
1932. Mr. Wilson, Yes, We felt we were fneed with such n. condition in
reduced, all of our employees through the entire depression had an
income, though it was " reduced one. Our plan of curtailment dur-
taxes
Senator on net CONNALLY. income? But in such a year you would not have any
ing the depression was, first, the elimination of the preferred divi-
dends; second, the reduction of executive salaries; third, the reduc-
Senator Mr. WILSON. But We could not build up our
tion of office salaries, and, fourth, the reduction of wages. Our
executives' salaries were cut from 35 to 60 percent, our office em-
had
a deficit? CONNALLY, But you would not have reserve. is reserve where you
ployees and sales employees, 40 percent, and the factory wages, 20
Senator Mr. WILSON, For the preceding
percent. Our company subscribed whole-heartedly to the program
Mr. WILSON, CONNALLY. This only deals year. with
of the N. R. A. and lived up to absolutely every agreement of our
code. We have absolutely made no wage euts of any nature what-
build The them CHAIRMAN, up in But order if our to take reserves care of are future exhausted, current we income. feel we must
soever since the codes were discontinued. The wages of our factory
out your net earnings?
of Do you feel you should take contingencies. care of all of them
employees have been restored 100 percent, the salary cuts of our
office employees have been restored 50 to 75 percent, and the cuts
Mr. Wilson. No, sir.
in the executives' salaries have been restored approximately 50
percent. If it had not been for our attitude during the depression,
our financial condition at the present time might have been better.
Regraded Unclassified
128
REVENUE лет, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
129
With our present situation I doubt very much If we would do this
Senator BLACK. I mean the number of hours per day: how much
again if WE had another emergency like the depression.
Doe to the inventory losses, which we may have in the future, and
were the hours per day under N. IL A.1
Mr. Wuson. Eight hours a day and 5 days - week.
& the terms of our bond indenture and to our shortage of working
Senator BLACK. You still work them 8 hours a day!
capital, the proposed tax on undistributed earnings of corporations
Mr. WILSON, When we have the business.
will prove a serious hardship to us. A 221/2 percent tax on undis-
Senator BLACK. You have not increased the number of hours!
tributed income as compared with the present approximately 15 per-
Mr. WH808. No. sir; unless we have en unusual situation-
cent would increase the tax payable to the Government 50 percent,
Senator BLACK You mean only in exceptional cases?
- stated. We believe that such a tax would be extremely unfair
Mr. WILSON. Yes, air.
to us.
Senator BLACK. Are your employees organized?
Furthermore, in the event of an expansion of business whereby
Mr. WILSON. Not that we know of.
the company will have increased inventories and accounts receivable,
The CHAIRMAN. You spoke of undue hardship due to the terms of
the company will require all its earnings in order to have sufficient
working capital to operate.
your bond indenture, We will look into that phase. As expressing
the views of one member of this committee, I think the provision as
Due to the condition which the Graton & Knight Co. is in, the net
to contracts made before March 3 and consumimated, we should change
earnings will be needed for working capital. Such working enpital
that, because if anybody has made n. contract, has incurred an obli-
will not be in the form of cash, but in new equipment, inventories, and
accounts receivable. The corporation does not have any excess cash
gation, before March 3, whether consummated or not, if there were
and has no investments in securities which can be turned into cash,
negotiations at that time, it ought to apply.
Senator KING. If the obligation is incurred the liability would
and in not in a position to make a cash distribution to the stockholders.
The money is needed in the business.
result under the contract.
While I represent Graton & Knight Co. alone, yet I believe there
What was the beginning of the dull period in your company
Mr. WILSON. We noticed a falling off in business in the summer of
are many other corporations in a similar position to the Graton &
Knight Co.
1929.
We realize that the Government must have income, and one of the
Senator KING. You had 5 dull years?
Mr. WILSON. With the exception of 1933, when we did enjoy some-
However, I believe that the Graton & Knight Co. and other companies
principal sources of revenue is the taxation of income of corporations.
what better business.
under these circumstances. Unless we work out from under this
similarly situated should not have any increase in the rate of tax
Senator KrNG. Prior to 1929 was your company indebted did it
owe any money!
do default our tax rate would immediately step up to 421/2 percent: if
Mr. WILSON, Yes, sir; previous to 1918, no.
dividends. I doubt very much if we would be in a position to resume even
at that get relief under the law, our rate would be 221/2 percent, and we
Senator KING. 1929.
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir; we were in debt. Our bond issue was dated
March 1, 1927.
Senator WALSH. You are not paying preferred dividends!
Senator KING. You ran a loss of $2,000,000 during the 5-year
Mr. WILSON. No, sir.
period; is that correct?
Senator WALSH. Since what time?
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. WILSON. 1931.
Senator KING. How did you take care of that? Did you issue
stock since when?
Senator WALSH. And you are not paying any dividends on common
more bonds, or do you still owe the money
Mr. WILSON. No, sir. We have met our sinking-fund requirements
Mr. WILSON. 1921.
every year. We have reduced our inventories, reduced our working
gational Senator WALAR. Are you meeting interest on your bonded obli-
capital, and used the money to meet these debts and also to take care
of our deficits. We have spent little or nothing on new equipment.
Mr. WILSON. Yes, sir.
Senator KING. Do you know of any way that a business concern
Senator Mr. Walsh. About how much a year is that?
can establish a credit other than through a reserve and paying its bills
WILSON. About $65,000 a year.
when due?
Mr. Senator WILSON. WAISH. About Did 1,200. you say how many employees you had!
Mr. WILSON. Having a reserve-not unless we have good earnings
every year and we are in a position where banks might be willing to
Senator Mr. WILSON. BLACK. That You is said right. you had not reduced wages since N. R. A.!
loan us money.
Mr. Chairman, I would like to add a further thought. 1 believe
Senator Mr. WILSON, BLACK. Do your employees still work
that my limited contact with the Federal income-tax law since we
N. could work effective, our business improved 1933, when the
R. A, became No, sir. During 1933, in the middle the of same hours?
have had that law indicates that while it may be imperfect in some
seems to have been more or less perfected, and it seems to me rather,
respects, still we have had that law for n. great many years, and it
working about our 36 employees hours. 40 hours. At the present to the point time where they are we
perhaps, too bad to pass that law up and substitute one that we do
not know what it will produce. I would like to recommend the
Regraded Unclassified
180
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1040
131
thought to the committee that we take the present tax law 10 it applion
to corpurations and individuals, leave the law as it is, and add a per-
Senator BLACK. Do you believe, Mr. Wilson, that profits derived
centage to the tax paid by every corporation and individual in order
by a person through bis interest in a corporation's stock should Im
to help the Government over the present crisis,
subject to any higher OF lower rate of taxation than the profit derived
Senstor KING. What do you think of my suggestion that-of in-
from any other line of business!
creasing the corporate tax up to 18 percent on income over $40,000
Mr. WILLON. I am afraid I do not quite understand.
and then increasing the income tax upon the individuals, the normal
Senator BLACK. I will ask you in another way, An individual or
lar, from 4 percent to 5 percent, and then a gradual increase in the
partnership can make n. profit on trading in various ways, or an
surtax, particularly reaching those incomes of from $20,000 to $50,000,
individual can buy stock in a corporation and depend upon profit in
and then on up into the higher brackets, and raise about $000,000,000
the stock of the corporation. Do you believe it fair that the rate he
in that way, and maintain the present (ax structure?
pays on his profit on the corporation's stock should be the same as
Mr. WILSON. I am not in a position to discuss the surtaxes
the rate he pays on the profit he receives from other lines of business
today vidual would favor an increased tax rate, I believe that the indi-
higher brackets, but, as a businessman, I believe the businessman or the
endeavor! Mr. WILSON, My offhand answer would be "yes,"
paying the normal tax also should have his tax raised.
Senator BLACK. If there is a system, whatever the system is, that
I believe believe the tax should be passed along to everyone. Incidentally, I
makes some individual pay more on his profits derived from a cor-
of that that if Congress would give the businessman encouragement
poration's stock than he does from other profits, and makes other
be sort and other encouragement, that the businessman
individuals pay less on their profits derived from corporation's stock
to Deseman conduct should be assured that Congress pledge itself to busi-
improve through an increase of the tax rate, I believe that the would
willing and ready to go ahead and that business conditions would
than is paid on profits derived from any other industry, that should
be changed, should it not?
Mr. WILSON. I think so, without knowing all the conditions
penditure itself as economically as it possibly can in the operate wise or
Mr. BLACK. The only condition I am speaking of in, a man may
businessman. of money, ns I believe you will get the cooperation ex-
make a profit in several types of endeavor, trading as an individual,
from a profession, from any line of business activity, including an
country to him, and I believe the majority of businessmen is
antagonistic I believe the businessman today feels Congress of the
investment in a corporation, or an investment in real estate as an
class of citizens. are just as loyal citizens of the United States as any in other this
individual. Now, as a matter of fairness, no system should be per-
mitted to stand, should it, if it gives certain individuals an excep-
Senator will WALSH. Will the experts inform us how
tional rate by reason of their investment in n. corporation and a
under there the have to be in order to meet the amount of much increase
much higher rate on income from individual investment; that should
tion tax? bill; what would be the increase in the rate money of corpora- required
not. be allowed to continue?
Mr. WILSON. 1 do not think so.
that porate is, an increase it is estimated it would have to be gotten about under the cor-
Mr. KENT. banks, If the increased amount were
Senator BLACK. It is wholly unjust and contrary to everything
we believe equitable, is it not?
would be about of about 101/2 percent in the 251/2 percent;
Mr. WILSON. I think 80.
increase in the $60,000,000 additional revenue present for each rate. 1 There
The CHAIRMAN. Thank you, Mr. Wilson. The next witness is
to the increases corporate in the individual rate. I do not have the details with percent respect
Mr. R. C. Fulbright.
Senator to raise Walsn. I do not think rate. you understand my question. You
STATEMENT OF R. C. FULBRIGHT. REPRESENTING THE
want $800,000,0001
SOUTHERN PINE ASSOCIATION
Mr. KENT. Yes,
centage Senator of Walsh. increase And in the you amount want to raise it by levying a certain per-
The CHAIRMAN. You represent the Southern Pine Association,
Mr, Fulbright?
average? under the existing law; what would of that tax percentage being paid have by corporations to be on the
Mr. FULBIOHT. Yes, sir.
The CHAIRMAN. Can you finish in 20 minutes?
present Mr. KENT. time the It would estimates be between for 1936, 25 and 30 percent, Senator. At the
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I wish to go into some phases of the estimates
here.
$1,100,000,000 taxes would Senator on mean individual between from corporate incomes, 25 and 30 taxes Now, under and to increase about the present an that equal by law, amount $600,000,000 were about from
The CHAIRMAN, Try to get through as briefly as you can.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Before going into the presentation for the South-
ern Pine Association I want to take a minute to mention one other
that Mr. their KENT. taxes WALSH. Yes. would So be you increased would percent. have 25 to to 30 announce percent! to the taxpayers
matter, and that refers to the amendment made in section 115 (c)
That section deals with distributions by corporations in liquidation.
at page 108 of the committee print, part I, of the bill before you.
It has been very widely changed by the House upon recommenda-
tion of the Treasury Department so as to provide that where there
Regraded Unclassified
122
REVENUE ACT, 1936
BEVENUE ACTT, 1986
133
1 simplete fiquidation of # corporation the amounts received will
have the benefit of the provisions of the capital, gains and Immes,
believe there is any class of taxpayers today be this country that are
action 117-a. That has been the law previous to 1934, but in 1984
demanding a tax reduction. Personally, I do not think this is the
this section was changed so as to eliminate corporate liquidation
time for tax reductions. I believe we have nocessarily had to undergo
from the capital gains and losses provision. Now, it was so left in
expenditures that make it necessary that WE raise more revenue, and
1974 that it constitutes a trap in some cases to unwary tuxpayers to
before I conclude 1 shall make some suggestions along that line, if I
fall into it. In other words, if a corporation liquidated and dis-
may.
cributed its properties to its stockholders, the stockholders did not
But the more I have studied the estimates that have been presented
pet the benefit of section 117 with respect to capital gains, whereas
to the Ways and Means Committee and to this committee, the more
if the corporation sold its stock to another corporation and that other
I am convinced they will not mise the revenue it is thought will be
corporation liquidated it to its stockholders, they got the benefit, and
produced.
they could liquidate without any profit.
I wish to make some observations for the benefit of this committee
We have had some correspondence from people in the chairman's
along those lines.
State and in Louisiana who got caught in that, and the only thing we
Now, of course, corporate returns do not show to whom dividends
ask is that the provision be made retroactive to December 31, 1934,
are paid; likewise, individual income-tax returns do not show the
year, where there are cases where companies were caught in that trap Inst
corporation from which dividends are received. Tt is a very difficult
matter from the data available to make any complete study of the
Senator KING. Some have paid their taxes after having been
subject, as the representatives of the Treasury have told you; but
eaught in the trap.
even if they could get complete data, from what corporations they
Mr. FULBRIGHT. It should be made retroactive to 1984, because it
came and to what individuals they were paid, it would still not throw
has been an unjust situation and is NO recognized.
much light on the question ils to what individual taxpayers will
legitimate and equitable demands from those who have paid.
Senator KING. If some have already paid we will no doubt have
receive the dividends which will be forced out of the corporations by
the new legislation. It is not correct to assume that the same persons
Mr. I think so,
who return as income dividends from corporations under the present
tax system will be the recipients of the additional dividends, for the
softwood industry of the South; we have numerous small
I wish to state that the Southern Pine Association represents the
reason that in a large percentage of the cases the additional dividends
tions, is few fair-sized corporations and we also have numerous corpora-
will go to individuals who do not hold any substantial amount of
had norshije in our industry. The Southern Pine Association has part- not
stock in corporations now paying dividends.
Senator KING. And under the present law will be exempt from the
ton the annual meeting on March 30 there was released from Washing-
to its an opportunity to pass upon the provisions of this bill, but prior
payment of taxes?
and Means first report of the subcommittee of the Committee on Ways
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
We can compute what revenue will be lost, but we can only specu-
Seriator KIXO. What percent of the lumber business of the
late as to what will be obtained. The Treasury experts estimate
the 10, 20, pine so, business or 1001 of the South, is embraced in your organization, South,
$1,132,000,000. This is approximately 16 percent of the estimated
corporate income for 1936 and is based upon the assumption that the
Mr. small FULBRIGHT. I should say about 50 percent, There
entire corporate income will be distributed under the new law. Of
they ous move mills from and place we to cannot place. very well keep track of all are of numer- them;
course, this is not correct, because, as the Treasury points out, a sub-
stantial part of the income may be retained at a much less rate of
from
In that reserve- proposal there was also a proposal to tax distributions
tax than is now paid.
The CHAIRMAN. Do those figures include the 15-percent tax1
The Mr. FULBRIGHT. CHAIRMAN. Just confine yourself to this bill, Mr.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. They estimate a total of 16 percent; that is, the
been With eliminated by The the House, association I shall considered the proposal Fulbright. which has
15 percent plus the guesswork taxes called excess-profits taxes.
However, assuming that all of the corporate net income will be
income, it regard to the general scheme not of discuss taxing it.
distributed, we must also assume that practically all of it will pay
taxas to them, was fully realized that while it would result undistributed net
4 percent, which will leave a net loss of $844,000,000 to be compen-
principle involved they in went the bill. on record Be not approving the in reducing general
sated by surtaxes paid by individuals under the existing schedules.
In the case of corporations with small income it is admitted by the
matters Now, which much of the comment that I make
Commissioner of Internal Revenue that perhaps the majority of such
engaged in the have law been passed on by the association, on this bill will not be
corporations and a majority of the individual stockholders thereof
that or more, and I have practice listened and with in handling tax matters but for I have 25 years been
will reap the benefit of a lower tax burden than they now sustain.
According to the statistics for 1933, the latest year available to the
have been made, and I wish to great say interest at the outset to the that presentations I do not
public, approximately 15 percent of the corporate net income returned
is received by corporations having less than $50,000 net income. As
134
REVENUE ACT, 1980
BRVENDE ACT, 1080
135
to Chom it may be said that there will generally be B substantial
we knew they would be consolidated WE found there WITH 78. These
reductions in the combined revenue to be received from such corpo.
rations and their atockholders. In other words, none of the deficit
corporations represent, perhaps, an approximation of the group on
which the Bureau of Internal Revenue based its figures,
will be made up from this class, but rather will the definit of 8844.-
Senator KING. That would be after their income tax was paid,
000,000 be increased by the opportunities which are available to
their corporate tax.
closely held corporations to very greatly reduce the total tax burden
Mr. FULBHIGHT. Naturally, the distribution of the corporation
of the companies and their owners.
would be, Senator.
By far the most important group of corporations from the stand-
This does not include some $20,000,000 of stock dividends.
point of tax revenue is the class returning a net income of $5,000,000
Naturally, the income from these 73 corporations would be expected
or more per year. In 1933 this class returned more than 30 percent
to be in excess of the taxable income figure reported by the Bureau
of all corporate net income returned. This percentage, as well as
of Internal Revenue. The range of net income, as shown in the
that of the corporations having less than $50,000 income, is rather
annual statements for these corporations, was from approximately
closely in line with the percentages for these classes as shown by
5 to 137 million dollars, and in the aggregate total $1,135,000,000.
statistics for former years. If this enormous loss is to be made up,
In the year 1983, against this income, these corporations distributed
it is obvious that we should expect that a considerable part of it
$929,000,000 in dividends, or a percentage distribution of 83½
should come from the class of corporations having tuxable net in-
percent of the total net income of the corporations.
como of $5,000,000 or more per year, particularly since they are by
Three corporations out of this list paid no dividends at all in
far the must important class.
An analysis of this class of corporations will disclose that the
continued to pay dividends even though their earnings, their earning
1933, although in the previous years of the depression they had
Government will not likely make up any part of the deficit from
statements, reflected deficits.
them and their stockholders. The reason for this is that most of the
of line with any previous years from which such a comparison might
It is submitted that the figures for 1933 are not abnormal or out
very large corporations have already built up reserves to conduct
Hair bisiness and follow the hábitual policy of distributing nearly
their dividend rates from previous higher rates which had applied in
be made for the reason that by 1983 many corporations had reduced
all of their net income from year to year. We have made an analysis
of curtain available data for the year 1933 and have used this because
1930, 1931, and 1932.
it is the latest year for which the revenue statistics are available. It
Therefore, by taking the corporate distribution in dividend per-
will be noticed that in the presentation of the Commissioner before
the House Ways and Means Committee actual figures were given
slightly posed less than 5 percent would come into play. Five percent in
centage Revenue Act of 1936, it can be seen that a taxable rate of
of 831/3 percent and applying the schedules under the pro- of
only for 1933 and prior years. Round estimates were given for
1934 and subsequent years. In 1933, according to the report of the
$1,115,000,000 would return to the Government only $55,750,000 that the
Bureau of Internal Revenue, there were 69 corporations returning
a net income of $6,000,000 or over and the aggregate taxable net
taxes. distribution of $029,000,000 would be subject to added taxation in
Of course, under the new law it can be assumed in
income returned by this class was $903,781,000, which constituted
30.20 percent of the taxable net income returned by all corporations.
the additional revenue would arise from this source, or a grand from
form of the 4-percent normal Tax. Therefore, $37,160,000 total
from this class of corporations under the proposed bill there will be
Our analysis shows that instead of obtaining additional revenue
of the 1936 Revenue Act in its effect on corporations of net
$92,907,000 of revenue which would come to the Government income
in fact on added deficit.
over $5,000,000.
$5,000,000 constituted only 30 percent-
Senator KING, If the 69 corporations whose net income exceeded
that The tomorrow morning we will start the hearing at 9:30; we
CHAIRMAN. Pardon nie, Mr. Fulbright. I desire to announce have a
Mr. Of the total income.
Senator KING. And the total is 1,000,000,000
great number of witnesses.
FULBRIGHT. Mr. Chairman, I apologize for taking your here. time, The
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Yes,
where. Senator KING. It would seem to me there Was an hiatus there some-
question but I is: Are goes We going to get the revenue hoped for
Mr. think this to the very heart of what we are doing under this
Mr. There are 69 corporations making
bill? have verified these figures in other ways. We of took net all income cor-
$5,000,000. 30 Their total return was $903,000,000. That returns constituted of over
have percent of the total returned by all classes of
porations of the last 5 years, and we went back and they dis-
Now, we from the manual, showing $10,000,000 or more for each of the
by Poor's examined the annual statements of corporations corporations. as We
over years. the In period 1933 there were 58 of those corporations
with incomes Compilations of Corporate Data and took all published
There wore above $5,000,000. and We selected 73 corporations
tributed 88.4 there percent was a of less their percentage: earnings. there were 51 corporations total net earn- last
more than that number, but by combining corporations. them where
year In having 1935 earnings of more than $10,000,000, with a
1-36-8
136
REVENUE ACT, 1936
DEVENUE ACT, 1088
137
ings of $1.100,000,000, and they distributed $905,000,000, or something
liver TH percent.
farger income this your than last year, unless something WB do not
Now, apply this bill to them and the average rate of tax would be
dream of now happens.
11% percent You would have a loss of approximately 5 or 6 percent
However, the assumption in made under existing law nearly $9,-
on all of that class of the large corporations by the application of
700,000,000 will be paid in net cash dividends, whereas in 1933 the
the bill It would amount to many millions of dollars.
actual figures as to net cash dividends were $2,102,000,000. The net
In 1984 the distributions of the similar class of corporations was
cash dividends are arrived at by eliminating the dividenda received
KT1/2 percent. Back in 1931 and 1932 the corporations carning more
by corporations. It will be observed that while it is estimated that
than $10,000,000 actually distributed more than they made, This Was
the 1936 income will be considerably more than double that of 1988,
for the reason that those corporations had built up reserves out of
on the other hand it is estimated that the net cash dividends paid will
which they could continue their dividend-paying polícies.
only be about 28 percent more. In other words, while the net income
I took a group of companies which I knew were outstanding com-
will jump from $2,986,000,000 to $7,200,000,000, the net cash divi-
panies, selected more or less at random. I took the total income and
dends would only be increased from $2,102,000,000 to $2,700,000,000.
total dividends for 5 years. Those companies were the American
The statistics of dividend payments by the large corporations, as
Telephone & Telegraph Co., American Tobacco, Consolidated Edison,
available from various statistical bureaus, indicate a much larger
Corn Products, General Electric, General Motors, Pacific Gas, Public
proportion of income being paid out as dividends than revealed by
Service of New Jersey, Procter & Gamble, Reynolds Tobacco, Stand-
the estimate of the Commissioner,
and Brands, Union Pacific. They had a total income for the 5-year
Now, taking the $7,200,000,000, We estimate in this class of small
period of $2,552,000,000 and total dividend distributions of $2,637,-
corporations, the less-than-$50,000 class, they have about 15 percent.
000,000. There was not one of them that did not distribute more
of the income, or $1,080,000,000. There will be an 8-percent loss, a
than DO percent of its earnings for the period. I first had Interna-
$84,800,000 loss, Applying the 1933 base to those of $5,000,000 or
tional Harvester included in that, but I took it out because I found,
over, constituting 70 percent of the income, there will be a loss of
for the 5-year period, the International Harvester Co. had only earned
$129,000,000, or a total loss of $214,000,000 to add to the $844,000,000,
$15,500,000 and had paid out over $54,000,000 in dividends. The
making $1,058,000,000 to be made up out of this intervening class,
International Harvester Co. kept its plant going and kept its men in
We do not think it can be done.
employment it out of what it had built up prior to that time; but I left
Senator BLACK. You mean all of the corporations under the new
out of this calculation.
law, as you have computed it, the Government will draw a smaller
Senator KING. You found many companies that paid out in divi-
amount of tax from them and their stockholders by the new bill
dends more than their earnings?
than by the old law?
Mr. FURRIGHT. Numerous companies. You will find they all
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I think that will be conceded, Senator,
companies know there with general stock ownership. On the other hand, are
Senator BLACK. And their stockholders and they would have to
small are companies that do not do that; they come into the we
pay a much smaller amount of tax!
It class. How are you going to make up this deficit?
Mr. FULDRIGHT. Much smaller.
there 1996 which 4½ billion dollars corporate net income
is will my be opinion that the estimate made by the Treasury that
Comparation statement of income-tua burden under present and proposed
lative as to distributed under the proposed law, is so
would be would not be distributed under existing law for but the which year
recenue ants in can of corporations with small income
(By R. C. Fullwright)
estimating be of little or no value, This estimate is highly specu
be $7,200,000,000. the total statutory corporate net income arrived at by
For a convenient comparison showing the effect of the proposals In H. H.
estimate in about which was $2,986,000,000. We of corpora- this
tions in 1933. or more than double the actual income for 1936 will
12395 six Diustrations are given, in each of which it is assumed that the
corporation has an adjusted net Income of $20,000 and has three stockholders,
1. e., Smith, owning 50 percent of the stock: Jones, owning BO percent: and
Personally, I am as good a guess as we can may make assume at that
Brown, owning 20 percent. It is also assumed that the personal exemptions
vated The under the latest inclined available to believe business that it is about what this is indi- time.
and deductions to which each stockholder should be entitled are exactly offert
by salaries and other Income.
would be CHAIRMAN distributed. I did not understand statistics. the
In the first three Illustrations (A, B, and C companies) the stockholders have
no other taxable Income than the dividends received from the corporations:
come; Mr. they did not say but it was that distributed. is the amount of Treasury undistributed said that in-
whereas in the other there Ulgstrations (X, Y, and 25 companies) the stock-
holders have outside taxable Income.
keep up FULDRIGHT. with all of I gathered that, and I may be in
The A and X companies are situated so that they can afford to distribute
the attionnt their figures, Senator. error: I cannot
all of their earnings. The B and Y companies cannot afford to distribute more
than half of their earnings, while the C and % companies can afford to distribute
am able not criticlzing of income that of estimate, corporations that That had is income more than in 1933, double I
TO percent of their earnings. The statements show the change in the tax bur-
den under the proposed law and the discrimination which will arimo against the
to make of the reports up to but date, from there the will analysis certainly we be have a much been
less fortunate corporations.
Regraded Unclassified
138
REVENUE ACT, 1996
BEVENUE 406, 1926
139
Under premit be
Truine proposed -
deductions to take care of their outside income, their salaries, and
Divi-
50 forth. Under the present law that corporation world be taxed
Black
desde
Indi-
Share
boklers
P
I &
Ladie
Have
$2,640) only two of the individuals would pay any tax because they
vidual
Total
relved
vidual
of -
Total
Laws
punis
taxes
would not get. into the mirtax brackets-that ist, the third individual
taxes
learn
purvis
lue
take
would not pay any tax. Under the proposed law the corporation
would pay no tax and the individuals would pay only $1,180.
- I AD par-
Bmith
$10,000
BRO
$1,320
$1,420
Die
None
No
You can see what the reduction is.
- of
June
5,000
30
We
to
(2)
Note
Now, then, the B company, we will say, has to improve its plant,
-
-
Brows
4,000
None
528
125
LAB
None
E
Some of the lumber companies have said they need money to fix up
THIS
20,000
200
100
1,000
1,1%
1,110
the plant in order to manufacture a better quality of lumber than
B company (distributes so per
liralth
5,000
8
1,320
1,300
240
$1,750.00
Loss
they are now able to produce, or it may be indebted in such 4b way
- of income tochedule
it cannot follow the amortization plan that I would like to refer
II-A),
Jones
2,000
None
792
172
120
1,050.00
1,150.00
to if I had time. They have to retain 50 percent. You will notice
De,
Drown
2,000
Num
as
026
00
700.00
780.00
that corporation and its stockholders are going to pay $3,940, or
Total
10,000
40
2,040
2,080
440
0,500.00
more than three times as much as the fortunate corporation that
complete (distributes TO per-
Smith
7,000
[30
1,220
1,400
410
843.75
1,237
did not have to hold its money to build up its plant or do anything
mi of lusse (schedule
like that.
111).
Do
Jones
4,200
#
792
800
176
506.25
002
The third example illustrates that where a 30 percent reserve is
Do
Brown
2,800
None
028
529
112
$17.10
$49.30
made and 70 percent of the income is distributed, there is actually
Total
14,000
138
2,640
2,778
as
1,687.80
2,785.16
some saving, as has been attested by the representatives of the Treas-
ury Department. But in that case I wish to call your attention to the
Under present law
Unine proposed law
fact that those corporations will be taxed very much more than the
Hock
Outside
Diss-
partnerships in business doing the same amount of business and hav-
tasable
dende
bulders
inveme
Indi-
Share
crived
vidual
of ear-
Total
Indi-
Share
ing the same net income.
é
porate
taxes
vidual
of ear-
Total
There has been a lot of talk here about partnerships, and I want
taxes
LASM
porate
taxes
taxes
taxes
to tell you about the partnerships. Business of A. business of any
size is not conducted by partnerships. We have the statistics on
1 empary (distrity
Kmith
$10,000
$30,000
$1,000
$1,320
82,98)
$2,000
None
$2,050.00
that. The Commissioner sent telegrams to all of the collectors in
the top penist of
order that he might have here for this hearing the number of part-
Da.
Jessess
15,000
5,000
080
702
1,472
(0)
None
920.00
DE
Brown
4,000
4,000
nership returns made last year. There were 205,432 of them; there
$40
A25
Ank
500
None
500.00
were only 80 that had incomes of $500,000 or more. They used an
1
20,000
20,000
2,00
2,540
5,320
2,40
3,460.00
illustration of a partnership of $500,000 income. Those partnerships
1 nempany
limith
10,000
5,000
the - private of
1,000
1,320
2,410
1,29
$1,750.00
3,040 00
were most likely professional partnerships; some of them may have
- II-
AS
been lawyers; it has been a great time for the lawyers, you know.
De
Jones
6,000
In
3,000
on
792
1,272
(100
1,050.00
1,680.00
Now, that is not all. Only 883 of the 205,000 had incomes of $100,000
Brown
4,000
2,000
24)
028
705
320
200.00
1,020.00
or more, four-tenths of 1 percent of them. But when you take the
Total
20,000
10,000
1,830
2,40
4.450
2,210
3,500.00
A,710.00
little businesses, I tell you that this bill makes it A lot harder on the
# sumpay
Smith
10,000
He persons of is
7,900
1,200
1,320
2,010
1,370
642.75
2,413.73
corporation than the partnership, and this exhibit proves it.
Senator BLACK. I thought you said it reduces the little business
(M/M) Da III)
Jones
Do
6,000
4,200
Drive
TUE
1,345
4,000
722
500,20
1,238.23
2,500
20
52%
BOX
392
337.50
T25.00
taxes. Mr. FULBRIGHT. It does, provided they can distribute the money.
Tetal
20,000
14,000
2,121
2,040
4,704
2,684
1,087.00
4,371.50
Look at page 2. In the case of the company that has to hold half of
it, it shows an increase in taxes of 50 percent, and will tax it three
I want to illustrate that by a table and data that has been passed
times as much as if it were 1b. partnership and three times as much as
up to the members of the committee. The first page is explanatory.
the more fortunate corporation which does not have to hold its
We have taken A, B, C companies and X, Y, Z companies, and have
assumed each has ID income of $20,000, an adjusted net income, we
money. Now, on the third page, we have assumed that each of the stock-
will my, of $20,000. I wish to call your attention to the different
holders had outside taxable income of $10,000, $6,000, and $4,000, IV)-
assumptions. The first is that 100 percent of the income will be
spectively. Those are pretty good sizable amounts in my country, best
distributed: the second assumption is that 50 percent will be dis-
tributed: and the third is that 70 percent will be distributed.
people, our business people down there. Where they distribute would be
although they may be pretty small up here. They represent our 100
Now, under the present law the A company, distributed 100 per-
of the income, the total taxes under the present law
cent of its dividends, and we assume here that the three stockholders
$5,320, percent and under the proposed law they would be reduced to $3,480. be
there, as the explanation shows, would have enough exemptions and
That may be nice, but those people are not demanding that taxes
140
BEVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
141
reduced now. All of this great mass of business concerns over the
country, the ment and bread line, have any of them been sending you
Now, there is another provision that was in the recommendation
letters saying they want tax reduction at this time? Now, this Y
from the Treasury but which was changed on the floor of the House.
company, we find the combined tax will be $5,710, or 64 percent more
They gave the corporation a 21/2-month period after the cloin of the
than the tax of the one more fortunately situated.
year to determine how much of the income it would distribute. In
Senator BARKLEY. You say they have independent income?
the House they crossed that out.
Mr. FULAMOUT. It is shown in the column under outside taxable
The CHAIRMAN. Do you not think that was IL proper action
income, the $10,000, $6,000, and $4,000.
Mr. FULARIGHT. If they are going to get the money next year:
It also assumes that the ordinary exemption for the family and the
but the trouble is that there are many companies that have not the
remotest idea what their net income is until they take inventory at
ordinary deductions will be offset by the sulary the man receives.
Now, the Treasury says it is so easy to get around that by having
the end of the year, and then they are able to tell what they are going
them declare a dividend and then bring the money back in as added
to do,
Senator KING. According to the decline in their inventory for the
enpital and points to the great privilege they have and the ease and
informality with which small corporations may do this, I wonder
solvency of their debtors.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. The gentlemen who talked about bides showed
how much experience those representatives ever had in the actual
that where the price varied 9 or 3 cents he would be in a bad fix.
representation of corporations under the laws of some of our States.
Senator CONNALLY. In order to offset a decline in the value of
In my State of Texas, for example, before you can get authority to
inventories that occurs after the first of the year in determining his
increase your capital stock it has to be subscribed, 50 percent paid
in with money, or the equivalent of money, and checked by the sec-
ability to pay taxes, the decline should be coincidental with the
income?
retary of state before he will grant authority to do it. If you are
Mr. FULBRIGHT. They would take the inventory at the beginning
going to issue stock rights, you would get into something that is not
of the year and at the end of the year, and until the latter one is
recognized under our law, and preferred stock is not recognized.
You have to make a contract with all of the stockholders and they
taken they have no way to tell what it is.
Senator BARKLEY. Do you not believe that any concern that is
will have to hire a lawyer. You are going to impose a lot of burdens
on the small corporations. First, to hire 1L lawyer, who will have to
run pretty well knows what it has made in December of B. year?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. In manufacturing lines, yes, sir; but in cotton,
how he is going to work out his capital structure every time a
with which I am familiar, a cotton merchant does not know where
dividend is declared, and then hire income-tax experts to see what
bracket he is going to get in.
he is until he gets his inventory.
Senator BARKLEY. We will take the year 1936. Now, he will take
A> I stated at the outset, there are a lot of our members who are
that inventory after the 1st of January. He has up to the middle
going to get reduced taxes. I sent out 8 questionnaire and have got-
of March to make out his income-tax report. Will he not have all
ten IN few returns from it. I have noted a couple from the State of
the chairman. One of them estimated that next year they are going
of that inventory information before he is required to make out his
to make 800,000.
income-tax report so as to offset his earnings!
The CHAIRMAN. Was that a corporation?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. That is perfectly correct, but under the law now
Mr. FULBHORT, Yes, They said they had a close corporation, and
they would have to determine what their distribution would be
they could pay that out and then pay it back. But there are a lot
before the close of the taxable year.
of them that cannot do that Another one in an adjoining county
Senator BARKLEY. Not necessarily.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. They would if they are going to get the benefit of
only a small Income. They do not want it, up That
gave un have estimate of their debt: they wanted to take the plant and
the schedule in the bill. They cannot get the benefit of it otherwise.
indebted stong Bne the other one did not need any money. They were one going was
I want to say this in conclusion-pardon me, Senator, did you
have another question?
The CHAIRMAN, How is it going to be IL burden if they are given
Senator BARKLEY. No.
special treatment?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I want to make this suggestion, gentlemen:
Mr. of FULBERGHT the They are only given special treatment if
We had a tax bill passed in 1918 that produced more revenue than
all back. That stockholders to agree they will distribute they get it
any special tax bill that was ever passed. We built up a body of
holder dies will work all right in lots of cases, but it and pay
regulations under it and a body of court decisions, and it was fair;
the court is and IN guardian is appointed to suppose a stock-
that was the excess-profits tax. If a. corporation made excess profits
order the laws me going to let him invest that represent in minor n. children;
upor its capital, it paid a substantial additional tax. I do not think
where is of my State or yours either, money There corporation
you will find a lot of business people hollering for it, but it. will pro-
causing trouble cannot be done, It is fine in theory, but it will are many cases
duce revenue. If we are going to have this doubling up of income,
have tremendous in practice. There are work out can by
$7,200,000,000 from these corporations, which the Treasury estimates,
and I have no reason to believe the Treasury is not correct, I believe
not believe a they are reduction expecting in a reduction taxes; but, many in on taxes, cases the other where hand, they I do
that we could by reenacting a tax on which we have the regulations,
court decisions, and administrative methods all worked out, we could
Regraded Unclassified
142
REVENUE ACT, 1936
REVENUE ACT, 1936
143
got - very large amount of tax next year. I suggest that is an Im-
purtent thing for the actuaries to get busy on, rather than to Launch
Mr. Here is a man who has $100,000 innome to start
into such a speculative thing. The Treasury says, "We are going to
with. Ho gots $20,000 dividends from the A. T. & T. By virtue
low $1,132,000,000"; now, where are we going to make it up? They
of this law being passed, you force some other corporation to pay
point out the different ways in which they can keep from paying
dividends it did not pay before, and he gets more from them. That
income taxes, and believe me, they will be doing it. The lawyers and
is where the added revenue comes; it is not because of the A. T. & T.
tax experts will show them how they can do it, and to the extent they
All he pays is 4 percent normal on that, and the A. T. & T. gets
CAD do it you are going to lack making up the $1,132,000,000, and
out of 16 percent, IN net saving of 12 percent. But by foreing nn-
miles you can get a more accurate statement than those which have
other corporation to make distribution you get some money out of
been referred to, I do not think it is a good idea to embark on certain
that, and that is where we can make it up, but I do not see how we
experiments.
will make it up.
Benator BLACK. Under this proposed legislation we are not likely
Senator BLACK. Are you an accountant?
to raise ax much taxes as under existing law; is that your conten-
Mr. FULBRIGHT. No, sir.
tion?
Senator BLACK. Who assisted you in this?
Mr. FULBIGHT. I think We will raise as much, but I do not think
Mr. FULBRIGHT. People in my office.
We will get any substantial increase.
Senator BLACK. I am asking because your evidence is interesting.
Senator BLACK. How much do you think it would be?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. It has been worked up in my office; the junior
Mr. I have not been able to complete my estimates, but
member of the firm is responsible for the most of the figures.
those who pay 15 percent of the income, there will be a very large
Senator BLACK. Are you IL lawyer!
loss, and those who pay 30 percent, there will also be IL large loss,
Mr. FULBRIGHT. We are, and some of us have had to learn some-
and in the intervening class there will be a gain. How much it will
thing about accounting and statistics.
Senator CONNALLY, I know Mr. Fulbright is a very able and
computations. be T have not been able to determine, as I have not completed my
capable lawyer.
Senator BLACK. Have you examined what has been submitted by
Senator BARKLEY. There is n. difference of 64 percent in two corpo-
the exports?
rations with the same income.
Mr. BARKLEY. I have seen everything they have offered, both in
Mr. FULBRIGHT. It would be a great deal more than that; that is,
the House and here. I can say I do not see where they are going
the combined tax the corporation and the stockholders. If one
to get any $600,000,000 in addition to the loss of the $1,132,000,000.
corporation was in a position to distribute all of its income and its
They are going to lose $200,000,000 out of the A. T. & T.; they will
stockholders did not have any other source of income, and the other
go scot, free; they will not pay any tax, and the General Motors will
corporation could only distribute half of it. in that case the one which
not pay any tax.
could not distribute but half of it would pay more than three times
Senator BLACK. How about the people who draw the dividends?
what the other paid.
Mr. FULBUIGHT. Some members of my family have A, T. & T.
Senator BARKLEY. That would be a very great disadvantage,
stock, that is, my wife's kinfolks, Some of them have a very small
Mr. FULBRIGHT. It is a great discrimination. This law will dis-
income. It is not going to make a dime's difference to the Govern-
criminate against small corporations in favor of small partnerships,
ment as far as they are concerned.
because II partnership does not have to worry about whether or not
not raise them into a still higher bracket?
Senator BLACK. How about those in the higher brackets; will it
they will withhold part of it or improve its plant; but if the corpo-
ration withholds some to improve the plant, it is going to pay three
been Mr. FULBRIGHT. The A. T. & T. will pay just what they have
times us much as the partnership in the illustration I give.
The point I am trying to make is in case of small taxpay it
& and if who draw dividends and who may be in one income-tax bracket,
Senator T. BLACK. I am talking about the stockholders of the A. T.
creates a tremendous inequality, and we have explained this to the
lumber men and it does not appeal to them as being a good policy.
they draw more, it puts them in another.
I might say in my section we have many small oil-development
Mr. FULARIGHT. May I illustrate
companies that have to keep their money in the company in order
Senator BLACK. Does it, or not?
to keep going in competition with the great Standard companies,
Mr. FULBRIGHT. No, sir.
the Texas Co., and companies like that, and I can see it would be B
Senator Mr. BLACK. It does not affect them at all?
tremendous discrimination against companies of that sort.
corporation. FULBRIGHT. Not unless they have income from another
Senator BLACK. Assume a corporation owes no money and has
a big surplus, and here is another corporation that owes money and
tions, Senator BLACK. Suppose they have income from various corpora-
has no surplus,
Mr. FULBRIGHT. One, insetad of paying 16 percent of its income
Senator? Mr. FULBRIGHT. May I abswer the question in my own way,
to the Government, will not pay anything; the other. instead of
paying 16 percent of its income, may have to pay anywhere from
Senator BLACK. Yes,
17 up to 421/2 percent.
Regraded Unclassified
ISS
REVENUE AUT, 1930
REVENUE ACT, TRM
145
Senator HEADE. Is it your view this bill works to the disadvantago
of all of the corporations in this country which Co not have big
e year. There are many law firms, and things of that character
where they will run in excess of that 1 was rather antonished to
surplases! Mr. Fulamort. I think ultimately that wonld be the effect. Seng-
note that only four tenths of 1 percent of 200,000 partnerships Fait
into that
It does not necessarily do it to start with, because you have to
The CHAIRMAN, Was that reference you gave ar to the earnings
take into consideration the position of the stockholders and whether
in the hearings on this bill in the House?
it is closely held and whether they would take advantage of the
Mr. On this bill: it was in the report
loopholes.
Senator BLACK. Suppose a stockholder in a corporation makes
Senator BLACK, One has R surplus and the other has to pay
sufficient income so that he is in the 65 percent brackets for the year
earnings.
and the company declares a dividend, adding $10,000 to his income:
Mr. But if one has only three stockholders and they
what percentage of that $10,000 would go to the Government for
can declare the dividends and put them back into the corporation are
taxes?
paid-in arrplus, they would be on an equality, but if they have one
Mr. FULBHOUT. It would be in excess of 65 percent.
stockholder who keeps it, or a guardian is appointed, #8 I have
Senator BLACK. In excess of 65 percent!
pointed out, they would have to have lawyers and it would not be
Mr. FULHRIGHT. Yes, sir.
B/F simple as you are led to believe.
Senator BLACK If he was in the 45-percent brackets, it would be
Senator KING. Have you some tables on the copartnership showing
in excess of 45?
the number and how it affects them?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
Mr. FULAMIGHT. I do not have anything on that, except there were
Senator BLACK, And if he was a stockholder down in the 4-percent
sume figures put into the record before the House Ways and Means
brackets, it would be somewhere in excess of 4 percent!
Committee, at page 428,
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
Senator KING. Would you call two or three farmers who work
Senator BLACK. Now, if he is paying under the present corpora-
together a copartnership!
tion tax and that profit stays in the corporation, the corporation
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
would pay 15 or 16 percent on profit, would it not?
Senator KING, Has the Department 80 classified them?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Yes, air.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. It follows the common-law concept. If it is a
Senator BLACK. Whether he would have to pay 4 pereent or 65
joint-stock association it may be a partnership under State law, but
percent or 72 percent; that is correct, is it not?
subject to taxation as a corporation. Many of our lumber companies
Mr. FULRIIGHT. That is correct.
are copartnerships.
Senator BLACK. So that in the actual operation of the payment of
Senstor KING. I wondered whether they classified in the copart-
tax on that profit it fluctuates from nothing up to 72 percent, so far
nership column a couple of sheepmen who work together.
as those dividends are concerned, as paid out to the taxpayer, divi-
Mr. FULBRIOHT. If they engaged in that business from year to
dends from the corporate profits?
year they are a copartnership: if they expect to dispose of the sheep
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Oh, yes.
the unst year, it would be a joint venture.
Senator BLACK. Now, the individual earnings, the partnership
Senator KINO, A couple of men who buy a grocery store and have
earnings, do not fluctuate in that way!
$2,000 of stock, what is that?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. No, sir. Whether they distribute it or not, they
Mr. FULBRIGHT. A copartnership.
must return their proportion of the income of the enterprise.
Senator KING. Have you any figures showing the aggregate earn-
Senator BLACK. So that in reality one of the issues here is whether
tions! ings of copartnerships measured by the gross earnings of all corpora-
or not the disadvantages you have described, so far as the corpora-
tion in concerned, outweigh an effort to prevent such a wide fluctua-
Mr. We do not have the comparative figures. The
tion in the amount of taxes paid on the profits which go from the
figures I referred to are for 1935, and we did not have available the
corporation, as compared with the profits that the individual geta
other statistics. Those copartnerships include engineering firms, law
from other concerns!
firms, and service firms.
Mr. FULARIGHT. I do not deny there are inequalities, but that is
Senator KING. Not industrialists or manufacturers!
very rare, because business is generally run by corporations, and only
Mr. FULMIGHT. No, sir.
small enterprises are run all partnerships.
Mr. CHESTERN, We can give you the estimated corporate income
Senator BLACK. Take yourself, as a Inwyer.
for 1985, and since the tax yield is running so close to the estimate,
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I would get stuck with it.
it would indicate the estimate on income is exact enough for your
Senator BLACK. You have to pay on the amount of the brackets
purposes, Senator and it would give you a basis for comparison.
in which you happen to have your earnings?
and of all KING. corporations. I had in mind the gross earnings of partnerships
Senator BLACK. But if someone else invests in a corporation, even
Mr. FULBRIGHT. That is correct.
gaged business in this country where they will run over $100,000
Mr. in FULBRIGHT. I doubt if there are a score of partnerships en-
though he may have " large income of several million dollars, which the
would place him in the higher brackets, on the profit made on
146
REVENUE AOT, 1938
REVENUE ACT, 1986
147
corporate mock be would be below the rate you would pay on your
meams, even though you are in the low bracket?
Mr. There is no question about the correctness of that
Mr. Formour. But when he dies the Government will get theirs
construction.
Senator BLACK. The Government may and it may not, If that
You asked a question about the increase in the number of copart-
days there for 5 or 6 years and they declare a dividend. or suppose
nerships. When the Commissioner was on the stand he stated that
he sells it.
in 1926 there were 295,000 partnerships and in 1985, 205,000; but
Mr. FOLBRIGHT. Then he pays profit on the increase in value.
if he had gone back to 1925 be would have shown there were only
Senator BLACK. A tax on the profit!
209,414 partnerships making returns in 1925, or approximately the
Mr. FULRIGHT. Yes, sir.
same as 1935. In 1918 there were only 160,000; in 1917, 75,000.
Senator BLACK. What percentage of profit?
Senator BLACK. How many corporations in 19187
Mr. FULBRIGHT. If it comes in the capital net losses OF gains, it
Mr. FULARIGHT. About half IMS many as now.
would be in the schedule which runs from 1 year to 10 years, and
Senator BLACK. As a matter of fact it is true the corporation has
scales from 30 to 90 percent.
been used as a device to keep from paying R$ much tax as they would
Senator BLACK. And he formerly paid 121/2 percent?
have to pay doing business as a. partnership or individual?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Yes, sir.
Mr. FULRRIGHT. That in the reason we enacted the sections I re-
Senator BLACK. We changed that by the most recent law.
forred to-I may have'to correct niyself. I thought section 851-
Mr. Futmour. Yes, sir.
Senator BLACK. That is immaterial.
Senator BLACK. You have read where one man who everybody
Senator KING. Is it not B. fact that individuals who have no pur-
knew was very wealthy has paid no income tax at all, even though
pose to evade tax find that because of the change in partners and
the corporations through which he did business, many of them, made
other difficulties, it is advantageous to form corporations, because
profits, Mr. Morgan: if dividends had been declared on the stocks
in this country you can conduct your business more effectively and
he had in various corporations, he would have had to pay an income
economically and with less uncertainty through a corporation?
lax, would he not?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Senator, if that were not so, there would not be
Mr. FULBUIGHT. Yes, sir.
any corporations, because they are the most vulnerable creatures to
Senator BLACK, And the probability is if the dividends had been
taxation by States, requiring reports, inspections, and things of that
declared these corporations would have had to pay for above what
character. It is necessary where you have n. large number of indi-
the normal man would have to pay?
viduals interested in an enterprise to incorporate. When you have
Mr, FULBIGHT. Yes,
six or eight partners, as in my firm, we have some pretty big argu-
Senator BLACK. And to that extent it is an unfair operation of the
ments, but when you get that in a business enterprise it breaks down
present law?
of its own weight.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. I know there are inequalities and I do not know
Senator BLACK. You can think of no reason why profits made
the excess profits tax, Mr. Morgan would pay a lot more.
any formula that will get us away from all of them, but if you had
through an investment in IL corporation should not be taxed just ns
greatly as profits made by investment in real estate or professional
Senator BLACK. You know that every effort we make to enact any
business, or anything else?
kind of tax law that reaches those gentlemen is difficult; there are
Mr. FULBRIGHT. Oh, yes; there is.
numerous holes and they always find them.
Senator BLACK. What is it?
Mr. FULBRIGHT, I mid before this committee when the 1934 act
Mr. FULBHIGHT. It depends on the character of the business the
was up for discussion that a proper administration of a law like
corporation is engaged in. If they are engaged in the sams charac-
section 351-
ter of enterprise, then you are correct.
Senator BLACK. What is that?
Senator BLACK. There is no argument you can think of so far as
Mr. in FULBRIGHT. That is where they allow the gains to
the corporate device is concerned-there is no reason you can think
late Senator a corporation beyond the needs of the business enterprise. accumu-
of why profits received from a corporation as such should not bear
BLACK. That is 102, is it not?
just as much of the burden of taxation as those received from any
Mr. One hundred and two is the personal holding
other business?
company, but 351 permits gains to accumulate where there is
Mr. FULBRIGHT. For example, this matter of surplus which was
9.8 presumption that they are needed for investment in the company such a
discussed this morning; there is a lot of difference between additional
capital subscribed and piling up surplus. You cannot declare divi-
know particular We cannot have a perfect tax law, but to we make should an effort-we
Senator BLACK. It certainly is our duty
dends and impair capital, but you can cut down the surplus.
Senator BLACK. Is there any reason, so far as our economic system
device group is permitted to take advantage see that no
or governmental system is concerned, why profit made in investment
Senator But here you do just the
Mr. FULBRIGHT. to pay smaller amounts of tax on their profits of any than kind others. of
in a corporation should be subjected to either a smaller or greater
amount of tax burden than profits made by an individual or partner-
BLACK I understand that is your opposite, construction.
ship? Mr. I would have to take into consideration all of the
factors,
Regraded Unclassified
148
REVENUE ACT, 1936
Senator BLACK. I am talking only about the corporation as such.
Is there anything sacred about a corporation?
Mr. FULBRIGHT. No.
Senator BLACK. Is there any reason why a person making a profit
out of a corporation, as such, should be subjected to a greater or
smaller tax than on profits made in some other way than by a cor-
poration? Mr. FULBRIGHT. I cannot answer that solely from the standpoint
of Federal taxation.
Senator BLACK. Any standpoint.
Mr. FULBRIGHT. If they are in the same enterprise the burdens
should be the same so far as Federal tax is concerned, but in the
State of Texas a partnership does not have to pay anything. You
have to take all of those disabilities into consideration.
Senator BLACK. I mean a corporation, as such, and because of
the fact it is a corporation.
Senator KING, The following witnesses will be here at 9:30 to-
morrow morning:
R. N. Denham, S. A. Sweet, Arthur T. Davenport, James I. Don-
nelly, Smith F. Ferguson, T.J. Priestley, Jr., Fred R. Fairchild,
J. W. Oliver, and John W. O'Leary.
The committee will stand adjourned until 9:30 tomorrow.
(Whereupon, at 5:05 P. Iil., the committee adjourned until Satur-
day, May 2, 1936, at 9:30 a. m.)
Regraded Unclassifie
10
NEW YORK TIMES
May
1,
1938
SENATORS MOVE TO INCREASE
TAX BILL YIELD $190,000,000
AFTER PLEA BY MORGENTHAU
validation of the Agricultural Ad-
Mr. Morgenthau explained that
SECRETARY URGES ACTION
justment Act and Congress's pas-
the entire cost of the bonha had
mge of the Bonus Payment Bill
been added to this year's estimates
over the President's veto, These
of expenditures because the Treas-
two measures, Mr. Morgenthau
try always anticipated the maxi-
cited, have abot the prospective
mum in making its calculations.
Deficit for June 30 Put
groas Federal deficit the the fiscal
"We estimate high on expendi-
year ending June 30, 1936, to an all-
tures and low on revenues," he
at the All Time High
said.
time high of $5,966,000,000.
But for these two actions, neither
Backs Profite-Tax Measure
of $5,966,000,000.
of which was contemplated by the
Mr. Morgenthau repeated the
President in charting the nation's
President's recommendation that
financial course last January, the
all of the new permanent revenue
budget would yet be on the basis
be provided by a new system of
of declining deficits, which, as the
corporation taxes.
INCLUDES ALL OF BONUS
President has repeatedly said,
In line with this, the Treasury
would furnish an adoquate guar-
head praised the main provisions of
antoe for the strength of the gov-
the House measure-the new cor-
Maximum Outlay Calculated
ernment's credit. With these two
poration tax based on undistributed
items satisfactorily accounted for
Income and the "windfall" levy to
for the Fiscal Year, Despite
by the pending tax measure, Mr.
recoup at least $100,000,000 in for-
Morgenthau estimated that the
merly Impounded or uncollected
Nine-Year Amortization.
deficit for the fiscal year 1937 would
processing taxes-but sald It fall
drop to $2,675,700,000.
$380,000,000 short of the revenue
Needs $293,000,000 For Two Years
necessary to place the budget in the
PROFITS TAX PLAN BACKED
position It occupied prior to Invall-
The Secretary of the Treasury
dation by the Bupreme Court of the
charged the whole cost of paying
Agricultural Adjustment Act and
the bonus, estimated at $2,237,000,-
enactment of the Bonus Payment
Finance Committee Moves to
000, to this year's expenditures, al-
Bill.
though the plan la to amortize the
Simplify House Rates and
Mr. Morgenthau suggested, as did
additional cost over a period of
the President ta his message, that
Corporation Classes.
nine years at the rate of $120,000.-
the old agricultural processing
000 per year. The deficit for the
tastes be revived to supply the tem-
fiscal year will, of course, be de-
creased to the extent that the vet-
Continued on Page Two
By TURNER CATLEDGE
Special to Tax New Your Times
erans refrain from cashing their
WASHINGTON, April 30.-A move-
certificates, but It is not figured
that this will be a substantial
ment to simplity the $803,000,000
amount
Tax Bill, passed yesterday by the
It. was to finance the extra bonus
House. and to add about $190,000,-
000 to na annual yield for the nest
cost and the new farm program,
two years, took definite form in the
the latter requiring $500,000,000 a
Senate Finance Committee today
year. and to make up the current
following a plea by Secretary Men-
deficit caused by Invalidation of
genthau for anactment of the fall
too Agricultural Adjustment Act
revenue program outiined by Pres-
and Its processing taxes that the
Ident Roosevelt in his massage of
new revenue measure was required.
March 3,
As outlined today by Mr. Morgen-
Mr. Morgentheu instited that the
than, the need now la for a bill
Tax Bill must be built up to the
producing about $193,000,000 all-
full yield originally asked in order
nually, for the first two years and
to repair the damage dobe to the
$620,000,000 . year therenfier,
budaet by the Express Centia las
11
It would be the purpose. too, to
the Rouse, are expected To
levy the las directly ou the adminis
be repeated by nearly Chresamors
MOVE TO INCREASE
of net income withheld by compon-
petitioners who Sere atked to
floor from distribution to sharew
testify during the Freanes Commits
holders, rather Oran expires It in
Lew's heartupe
YIELD OF TAX BILL
certify of the total net income.
No charification of corporations
Impresand by Margathese
world be and up für rate purposes,
Secretary Morgenthan's
under Case changes which the Sens-
had W.D. divious affect upon the
Continued From Page One
LOSS propose to attempt, hgt car-
committee members. The direct-
porations of net income of leas
ceas with which be Instified and
porary revenue. Be 4/4 not, now-
than a certain amount, may, $20,000
the guickness and definitenem with
ever, fully convince the Senate tax-
annually, might be given an out-
which he answered questions prac-
bill tramers that this was the frest
right exemption from the new tax
lically precluded any cross-ediuml-
method.
of $3,000 OF $2,000 which they
nation; BY much 60 that Repubilican
Harrison Studies New Proposals
might withhold G.M. undirtributed
critica quickly absedened their
protits.
plan to subject bim to partisan fire.
Chairman Harrleon cald he was
Simplification Plan Sought
Only of for questions were asked
not yet certain whether the Finance
of the Secretary. One was by Sen-
Committee would consider reviving
The prime movers in the effort to
ator Harrison, who wanted to know
the processing lovies. Nevertheless,
simplify the bill include Senators
If the $85,000,000 AAA floor tax new
he piedged himself and bis Dein-
Harr'son, LA Folletto, Connolly and
ocraite colleagues to work for the
other administration followers. In
Zunde Inserted in the bill by the
House should be added to the dat-
full revenue yield as saled by the
preparation for future action. Ben-
left caused by Invalidation of the
President. indicating that 12 no
ator Harrison asked Secretary Mir-
AAA, estimated at $517,000,000.
other sources were found for the
gentbau to submit A plan for simpli-
Mr. Morgenthau reached in a
$190,000,000 additional annual funds,
fleation of the House measure, and
the processing tases might have to
especially for a shorter schedule of
about of papers before him and
rates. He also asked for a plan and
puiled out a sheet from which be
be revived. He added that he was
read the answer. The flour us re-
estimates to connection with the
working on other tax proposals
fund, he aaid, abould be added to
which might supply the deficiency,
idea of allowing a limited exemp-
the defloit and, furthermore, that
Secretary Morgentbau especially
tion to corporations of small In-
it would require $43,000,000 instead
comes.
commended that part of the House's
Senator La Follette asked that the
of $15,000,000.
bill which revises the present cor-
schedules be figured out as apply-
Senator King asked If the ID-
porate tax structure by substituting
Ing directly to the amount of In-
cressed appropriations, voted and
a levy based solely upon undia-
come withheld by corporalions from
threatened by Congress for the
tribuled profits. This, be and, would
stockholders, and not to the total
army, Davy, flood control and re-
meet A situation by which, accord-
Bef. had been taken into account in
net corporate income M provided In
ing to Treasury estimates, more
the House bill.
arriving at e gross Federal deficit.
than $4,500,000,000 of corporation In-
Benata opposition to the new tax
Again Mr. Morgenthau reached
come would be retired to surpluses
program wes viewed today as out-
Into his papers and pulled our 6.
during the present calendar year,
Unuing to decline. Benator Harri-
street an which he had net down
with A resultant leak of $1,300.-
son gave evidence of that particular
the deficit estimates for the pres-
000,000 in Federal revenues.
brand of confidence which he shows
ent and next fineal years.
"With tax avoidance occurring on
"If #: had not been for Invalida-
when positive that he la on the win-
the scale indicated by the figures I
ning elde.
tion of the AAA and mantment of
have cited, I do not see how any
"Why, with these few simplifics-
the bonus over the President's
increase in individual income rates
veto, the deficit for this year would
or other general and continuing
be on a declining basis," the Secre-
taxation could be justified until this
tary added.
leak in our tax system is stopped,"
Lions which we hope to get into the
"And we would not have had to
said the Secretary.
b(l), the Senate will pass 11 without
pass 6. Tax BUI," put in Senator
question," said the Mississipplan,
Harrison.
Says All Will Be on Same Basis
"I never wes more confident of any-
As to Estimates in Other Years
Mr. Morgenthau made no recom-
mendations as to the rates or es to
thing in my life:"
Senator Harrison asked If the rec-
the technical form by which the
The esse with which the measure
ord did not disclose that provious
undistributed corporate profits tax
was passed in the House want a
administrations had setimated their
should be applied.
long way toward melting prospec-
revenues too high.
"Whatever may be the debatable
tive Sepate criticism. The appear-
ance today of Secretary Morgen-
Again reaching into bis papers,
considerations that may enter Into
Mr. Morgenthaul exhibited a docu-
the preparation of particular sched-
than and his associates, Gaty T.
ment which net out the revenue
ules," be continued, **It will be well
Helvering. Commissioner of Inter-
estimates and actual collections
to bear in mind at all times that
nal Revenue, and George C. Hans.
over & period of atx years.
this la purely and simply a proposal
Director of Research and Statistics
For 1031, the Treasury estimated
to put all taxes on business profits
of the Treasury, was credited with
revanues 15 per cent le ennese of
resentially DD the sens equilable
keeping the opposition on the de-
collections; 1032, 7 par cent in ex-
basis; to give DO advantages and to
cline.
case: in 1938, 13 par-cent in excess,
imposs no penalties upon corpora-
Mr. Helvering presented the same
and 1904, 5 per cent in excess. For
tion stockholders that are not adven
nature of argument which be pre-
the fuesal year 1955, the fixst year's
to end Imposed upon the individual
viously had given to the House
taxpayer who alone, or as a part-
Ways and Means Committee. Be
estimains for which he was respons
sible, Mr. Morgenthau said, the
Ber, derives bis income from bust-
suggested again that the main bur-
tables were turned and revenues
tiese profits."
des of the new corporate tax plan
exceeded the Initial calculations by
TI was toward the complicated
would tall on & limited number of
4.0 per cant. and this year they
rate structure in the House bill,
corporations and Individuals-71 per
were running about I per cant
however, that the Segations pro-
cont of the increase in texable In-
above.
pused to direct their efforts for
come would be received by Indi-
The evident preparation which the
stmplitication. An attempt will be
viduale with Incomen of more than
Secretary bed made for bis appear-
made to do away with the nomplex
$28,000 and PS per cant by thom
ance before the committee obset-
fahles approved by the House and
with Incomes to excess of $100,000-
only distructived Repailicans who
siso the division of corporations
and that the revenue would come
ware expected to
into two classe-thome earning
not from new bases but through
him. With the few questions all
$10,000 A. year or less and those
stoppage of tanke to present leview,
Indicated shove. he WER excuted.
earning more than $10,000 and to
Mr. Hass look up societion 120%
In his propered statement Mr.
apply a simple schedule of five or
obisations enland mealnst the BAD in
alx: brankets.
Regraded Unclassified
Morganthan made a special plea
for stisctment of a bill which would
raise the full amount of revenue
sought by the President.
"The Treasury has been able to
borrow readily the amounts neces-
sary to finance the recovery pro-
gram and has been able to obtain
these loans at steadily decreasing
interest rates," he said.
"The continuance of this antis-
factory situation, however, will de-
pend upon scrupulous adherence to
an orderly program looking to a
balance of the Federal budget just
as soon as the needs and abilities
of our people make that possible
and, thereafter, upon a steady re-
duction in the public debt.
"I sincerely hope," he said in clos-
ing. "that this committee will re-
port to the Senate a bill giving ef-
fact, as fully as possible, to the
President's recommendations of the
amount of additional revenue heed-
ad to supply the deficiencies cre-
ated since the budget message of
Jan. 3."
Prepared by Oliphant in answer to
Sec'ys question that the tax bill
thatit will work to advantage of big
corporations as against smaller ones.
May 2, 1936
13
It is argued against the proposed tax measure that it would
definitely hinder the growth of business enterprise and further monopoly
in that the small enterprise, which would otherwise have surplus with
which to expand its business, would lose that surplus and be unable to
expand its business because of distribution to stockholders. It is ar-
gued that in the past it has been by means of withholding distribution
and keeping earnings that small businesses have been enabled to grow into
larger ones. It is further contended that the proposed tax scheme would
80 crystallize the present setup that the large corporations would con-
tinue to be large whereas the small corporations would be unable to grow.
This, it is claimed, is an evil.
In his statement to the Senate Finance Committee, Mr. Haas, on be-
half of the Treasury, pointed out that in fact under the bill the small
corporation 18 to be taxed much more lightly than the large one and that
adequate opportunity is offered, from a tax standpoint, for expansion.
There are also other answers to the contention.
Obviously the criticism proceeds from an assumption either that
the stockholders in the small enterprise will not re-invest a substantial
portion of the dividends received or that deduction of taxes will have
the effect of crippling the small corporation and prevent it from having
sufficient additional funds with which to expand. The latter assumption,
in essence, is based on the notion that the Government should give a
1.
Regraded Unclassified
14
subsidy to small businesses which they may use with the possible effect
of becoming larger corporations. If it is desired to have a tax pro-
gram based on taxition of enterprises by size rather than by income
then such 8. proposal could be considered, and if the philosophy were
acceptable a much more equitable and more carefully thought out plan
could be suggested. But that is not the present tax policy of this country.
It is more to the point to consider the former assumption, namely,
that stockholders will not re-invest. In considering this question it is
pertinent to ask why stockholders would not re-invest or why they should
re-invest. One may assume that the stockholders who have received divi-
dends have spent part in the satisfaction of their personal wants and that
they have the remainder left for re-investment. The former expenditure
will go, in the long run, to increased demand and hence in a larger sense
to re-investment in industry. The question, in the last analysis, is
therefore whether the individual stockholder will re-invest the remaining
portion of his dividends in the corporation which yielded them to him or
prefer to invest it in some other enterprise.
Stockholders with dividend incomes available for re-investment are
divisible into at least two general classes. The first class would con-
sist of those active in the enterprise. They may be the largest stock-
holders or they may be the dominating stockholders, or they my otherwise
have the enterprise at heart. In their case there will certainly be no
difficulty in re-investing. Indeed, the very assumption must be, from 8.
2.
Regraded Unclassified
15
realistic point of view, that they and "the corporation" which 18 seek-
ing to expand, and which needs its earnings to do so, are essentially
identical. The difficulty, if any, is therefore limited to the situa-
tion of the second general class of stockholders, namely, the passive
ones whose stockholding is in the nature of 8 more or less casual invest-
ment. These stockholders must be persuaded that the enterprise in which
their original capital was invested is & sufficiently worthwhile one to
justify re-investment. Realistically viewed these passive stockholders
are always lenders of capital who have been drawn into entrusting their
money to the majority or dominating stockholders by the expectation (if
not the representation) that they would receive substantial dividends on
their investment. In practice, they have been treated as persons having
a claim against the insiders but a less enforcible one than, say, pre-
ferred stockholders or bondholders have.
Certainly the very payment of dividends to the passive investors
would be a motivation to re-investment since the money could not be more
judiciously invested than in the very enterprise which had proved itself
to be profitable. On the other hand, if the passive investor prefers to
place his money in some other enterprise it must be because he is not
satisfied or he has not been persuaded that that is to his best interests
to keep it in the same place.
The people who assert that they will be hampered in the expansion
of their businesses, must, in the last analysis, be the majority or dom-
inating stockholders who resent either the necessity to persuade the
3.
Regraded Unclassified
16
minority that their capital investment is being properly handled or who
wish simply to avoid the payment of taxes on the accretion to their own,
personal, total wealth, represented by investment in the corporation,
which is largely due not only to their own investment but to the invest-
ment of the passive stockholders who in many cases represent in fact a
majority of the total invested capital.
Even if it be conceded, moreover, that there will be a certain
amount of hindrance to expansion on the part of small enterprises that
will not be compensated for by the increase in purchasing power and by
the exemption of the enterprise from the burden of corporate taxation,
the question still remains whether the disadvantage to the particular en-
terprise is not outweighed by the advantages to the greater masses of the
population, that is, by larger public policy. Among these advantages may
be listed the following:
1. At present the insiders use their power to withhold declaration
and at the expense X the federal revenues
of dividends for selfish ends, In many corporations we find that the de-
cision of insiders to declare dividends is used for the purpose of selling
long or short the stock owned by these insiders in their company. This is
unfair to the remaining stockholders. A corporation which grows big by
such devices is hardly & desirable one.
2. Often on the pretense that the accumulation is necessary to
and the Pressures love,
build up the financial condition of the company no dividends are declared,,
The effect is to depress the value of the stock to the passive stockholders
40
Regraded Unclassified
17
while the insiders rely on other income in the form of salaries from
the corporation or in the form of income from outside sources. When
the stock has been sufficiently depressed the insiders buy up enough
from the non-dominating investors to yield a large profit when they pro-
ceed, after they have published their intention to declare a dividend,
to unload to new "suckers." This widespread corporate evil would be much
less under the proposed legislation, for dividends would have to be more
regular.
3. The tendency of insiders is to consider all other stockholders
as nuisances who were brought into the enterprise because of the money
they contributed but who were neither to have 8. voice in the management
of the business nor to have any definite claim to a return on their in-
vestment. It seems a definitely valuable social result of the proposed
tax bill that insiders will have to take pains, after they have induced
the hitherto passive investors to place their money in the enterprise, to
persuade them that the corporation 18 sufficiently well managed to deserve
re-investment of profits. This will keep management on its toes and will
go far to removing many evils of corporate management which have actually
kept corporations from healthy expansion.
4. Since dividend receipts must necessarily be re-invested in some
enterprise, even if they are not re-invested in the enterprise in which
they were earned, there will in the long run be a spreading of investment
which may turn out to be more advisable. This will tend to keep not only
stock prices but industries themselves more stable.
5.
Regraded Unclassified
18
It has been assumed in this discussion that surpluses have
brought about the growth of competing units that prevent monopoly. In
fact, however, it is very much to be doubted whether the larger enter-
prises have ever grown merely from re-investment. In the ordinary run
of things enterprises do not grow so spectacularly. The average enter-
prise, if it is & profitable one, tends to be modest - otherwise we
should have more and more breakdown in competition. The successful enter-
prise which grows into a Chrysler Corporation or a General Motors (even if
not a Ford) is typically one which is either the result of integration
with others or one in which outside capital is induced to invest after
the business itself has demonstrated its possibilities. Underwriters and
banking houses serve that function in the financial world. The additional
capital which is necessary to make large businesses of the Chrysler type
is obtained either through bond issues or through very large stock issues;
typically it is not made merely through keeping surpluses in the business.
Furthermore, the surplus which is kept in the business is deter-
mined by what the people who dominate enterprises keep in after they have
taken out enough for their own personal wants commensurate with the stan-
dard of living to which they think they are entitled. In such cases it is
not the smaller investor who contributes to spectacular growth of enter-
prises.
It must be concluded that businesses which cannot induce re-invest-
ment of dividends available for re-investment are mainly businesses which
6.
Regraded Unclassified
19
are managed or dominated by persons who wish to compel unwilling part-
ners to continue in enterprises in which these partners do not believe.
There is no social advantage in lending through the taxing power & fur-
ther governmental hindrance to the unwilling partner's desire to get out
of the partnership to the extent of the profits realized on the venture.
It is enough that the courts and the laws compel him to keep invested the
capital he originally threw into the enterprise.
Finally, it should be pointed out that there is nothing to indi-
cate that the relatively small vigorously growing businesses do not
now have reserves relatively as great as the giants of industry. How
much reserves any corporation has is, in final analysis, merely a
For
question as to the percentage of its solvency.
the mass of busi-
ness, probably the relatively smaller units. are solvent quite as
high,if not a higher, percentage as the large ones.
Regraded Unclassified
20
OFFICE
OF
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
WASHINGTON
THE
SECRETARY
May 2, 1936.
MEMORANDUM TO SECRETARY MORGENTHAU
In Re: The Burden on Small and
Large Corporations under
the Tax Bill.
I have not had time, of course, to examine this question in any
detail. It seems, however, that from one way of looking at it the
large corporations will pay out less in taxes as corporations under the
new bill than they did before, assuming that they make no change in the
proportions of their earnings which they distribute annually. I learn
that a study made over at the Federal Reserve Board shows that the large
non-financial corporations reporting net income in the period 1923 to
1929 paid out in dividends some fifty-seven per cent of their net earn-
ings after taxes. Under the House Bill they would pay fourteen and one-
fourth per cent on their net earnings before taxes if they continued to
pay out this proportion of their earnings in dividends.
Under the present Act they pay about sixteen per cent. This looks
as if the new bill favors the large corporation. Actually, however,
under the new bill there will be an inducement to the large corporation
to distribute its earnings which does not exist under the present Act,
As the purpose of the bill is not to increase the taxes on the corpora-
tions, but to increase the tax revenues to be derived from the income
earned by corporations through the personal income tax, this is really
irrelevant. The shareholders will exercise some pressure on the corpora-
tion to distribute its earnings, on the ground that otherwise the cor-
poration would be subject to & tax from which it can escape through
distribution of earnings. Under the present law, no such means of escape
exists and therefore, under the present law there are no tax inducements
to distribution of earnings, while there are important tax incentives to
non-distribution.
It seems to me, therefore, that the proposed bill is to be appraised
not in terms of the comparative tax burdens on a corporation under the
old and under the new tax measures if that corporation adheres to its
former practice with respect to distribution of earnings, but on the
basis that the new measure puts pressure on the corporation to distribute
its earnings by increasing the advantage to the shareholders, unless they
are very wealthy, of such distribution.
Joseb
Regraded Unclassified
21
COPY
May 2, 1936
MEMORANDUM TO SECRETARY MORGENTHAU
FROM: JACOB VINER
In Re: Negotiations with China
I take it that the Treasury objectives are:
1. A currency system in China satisfactory to herself.
2. As much absorption of silver by China for currency
and other purposes as is consistent with (1) above.
The Treasury, as I understand it, 18 prepared to undertake
the purchase of surplus Chinese silver at the market price, pro-
vided the purchases are spread fairly evenly over an extended
period of time and provided the Treasury is left with discretion
as to the precise timing of the purchases. I understand also
that the Treasury 1s willing to undertake to give China a credit
against silver deposited as collateral, against which credit
China can draw when and if she needs dollar funds in greater
volume than sales of silver at the scheduled rate would provide.
If these assumptions are correct, then it seems to me that
the negotiations, as recorded in the file, are progressing favor-
ably for both countries, The only comments I feel that I have
to make are - first, that China should be advised to value her
reserves at their actual market value, rather than at any arti-
ficial valuation. The fact that we follow a different practice
should not be made the basis for urging similar foolishness on
the part of other countries, Second, the Chinese apparently
do not wish to peg to the dollar and we are obviously not anxious
that they should peg to sterling. It seems to me that the best
solution, which gives the Chinese the advantage of pegging and
at the same time frees them from the charge by us that they have
pegged to sterling or by the English that they have pegged to
the dollar, would be for them to peg to a mean rate between dol-
lar and sterling, Of course, this could work satisfactorily
only with a certain margin of variation BO as to avoid awkward
fractions in the sterling and dollar exchanges, and would work
very badly if the dollar and sterling should begin having marked
variations relative to each other. But as long as the dollar
and sterling are relatively stable in terms of each other, this
seems to me to be the most satisfactory procedure for the Chinese.
Regraded Unclassified
22
May 4, 1936
At the 9:30 meeting this morning, the Secretary again
inquired whether the tax bill would not be pretty severe on
small and medium-sized corporations by preventing them from
building up surpluses. Haas justified the provision in the
pending bill by pointing out that corporations pay out divi-
dends and offer to their stockholders "rights" to subscribe
to stock and the stockholders in turn pay in their dividends
and get more stock. HM,Jr. was of the opinion that stock-
holders in small corporations would not do that and cited
instances of a few small concerns in Poughkeepsie where the
stockholders receive their dividends and spend the proceeds
but do not subscribe for rights.
HM,Jr. also inquired concerning the loop-holes in the
bill which, if not plugged, would result in loss of revenue
to the Treasury. The loop-holes are ways by which taxpayers
and corporations can avoid paying the tax. Oliphant expressed
complete confidence in McLeod's estimates. Upham, however,
feels that McLeod's estimates are based on the supposition
that the loop-holes have been plugged. HM,Jr. inquired of
Mr. Upham who were the men on the Hill who had raised the
question about loop-holes and Upham replied that Beaman, of
the House Legislative Counsel, O'Brien, his assistant, and
Mr. Kent of Internal Revenue are the fellows who have the
information. Oliphant said he would get in touch with the
three of them and talk it out.
Regraded Unclassified
COPY
23
May 4, 1936.
Secretary Morgenthau
Mr. Herman Oliphant
After the morning meeting on the tax bill, worked on Harrison's
suggestion of two slight changes to enable him to have the bill reported
favorably.
With Upham and Kent, saw Beaman , Parker and other legislative ex-
perts at and after lunch to make a recheck on possible loopholes. I might
say that our own experts on this are Messrs. Turney, Kent and Lusk, and
possible loopholes have occupied most of their time since March first.
Turney and Kent confirmed my statement this morning that all major
loopholes have been plugged, and there remain only those miscellaneous
minor possibilities of avoidance, possibilities which we always have in
the case of any general tax bill.
My recanvas of possible escapes with Beaman, Parker and O'Brien
was not completed because of a special matter I shall mention below;
although on general inquiry they referred only to Section 27(i) relating
to intercorporate dividends which will have to be reworked because of
the last minute amendment in the House making the dividend year the same
as the taxable year.
Instead of Harrison's suggestion of a flat exemption of $2,000
for corporations with net incomes of less than $20,000, Parker suggested
that we adopt one table (that with the higher rates), let corporations
figure their tax under it, and then tax corporations with incomes of less
24
-2-
than $15,000 or $20,000 that fraction of the tax so calculated which their
income is of $15,000 or $20,000. Much time was spent discussing this
possibility of meeting Harrison's request for simplification, and it
looks promising. George and I worked on it some this afternoon, and it
looks as if it might be adopted without any loss of revenue.
I might add, generally, that having gone through this whole process
in the preparation of the Revenue Act of 1934, and the Revenue Act of 1935,
and knowing how our own staff and the two staffs on the Hill work, things
are moving and are being handled in the usual way, and, as usual, the
process of perfecting the bill will continue until final enactment.
Dr. Feis called me about a cablegram from Flack relative to the
transfer of Brenner in Waite's office in Paris to Boston. I relayed
the message to Gibbons as Feis requested.
/s/ HO
Mc
COPY
Regraded Unclassified
25
C
0
P
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
Y
Wachington
May 4, 1936.
MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY:
Further conferences occurred this morning between representatives
of the Canadian distillers and representatives of the Treasury Depart-
ment and the Department of Justice, with the following results:
Consolidated Distillers
Mr. Forsythe, for Consolidated Distillers, made an offer to settle
the Government's claim (amounting to $4,527,982.08) for the sum of
$237,500, this to be liquidated in installments. To secure the payment
of this amount, Mr. Forsythe offered to pledge with the Government cer-
tain stock owned by his company in a company known as Distilled Liquors
Corporation. This stock is carried on the books of Consolidated Dis-
tillers at a value of $114,000, but has a nominal market value of $10
a share, or $237,500. Payment would be made according to Mr. Forsythe's
proposal from time to time as the stock in question should be disposed
of by Consolidated Distillers, the Government to assume the loss for
any sales which might occur at a price lower than $10 per share. Addi-
tional payments would be made at the rate of 16 cents per gallon on all
importations of the company's liquor into the United States until
settlement had been made in full.
Mr. Forsythe was advised by the Government's conferees that his
offer was unacceptable.
Mr. Forsythe stated that this was the final offer which could be
made by his company. He stated, moreover, that ne was not in a position
to make any offer which would involve submitting his company to the
jurisdiction of the United States courts and posting security to pay
any judgment which the Government might obtain after litigation.
Mr. Forsythe was requested, and agreed, to submit the proposals
which he had made in written form.
In the course of this morning's discussions, Mr. Forsythe stated
that the controversy over the settlement of the Canadian distillery
claims had now become an important political issue in Canada, and that
he had no doubt that if the proposed legislation should be enacted it
would result in breaking down the Canadian Trade Agreement. He went
Regraded Unclassified
26
Memo. for the Secretary - 2.
on to say that the Prime Minister had already announced that in the event
the legislation were enacted, it would be necessary for Canada to have re-
course to the "escape clauses" of the Agreement.
Seagrams
Mr. Phillips, on behalf of Seagrams, who, as you have previously been
advised, had earlier made an offer of $500,000 in settlement of the Govern-
ment's claim, which offer was rejected, offered on alternative No. 2 to
furnish security for the payment of any judgment which the Government might
obtain against his company in the form of a surety bond for $750,000. He
qualified this by saying that he would be willing to increase the bond to
$1,000,000 provided the amount could be related to the current imports of
Seagram whiskey into the United States at et fixed rate per gallon.
Mr. Phillips was advised that his offer was unacceptable. In this con-
nection, his attention was called to the fact that Mr. Seth Richardson,
Washington attorney for his company, had advised the Senate Finance Com-
mittee that the company would be willing to post a cash bond in a larger
sum than Mr. Phillips' present offer. His attention was called also to the
fact that he himself at an earlier conference had suggested that his company
would probably be able and willing to furnish a surety bond in an amount
of, as he said, two or three million dollars. In other words, it was
pointed out to Mr. Phillips that his final offer in the matter of security
made to-day was substantially less than previous offers which had been
made, at least tentatively, on behalf of his company.
Inasmuch as Mr. Phillips' offers, as he was told, were unacceptable
to the Government, and inasmuch as ne had made it clear that these were
the final offers which would be made, he was advised that there would be
no purpose in further meetings, and that so far as the Government was con-
cerned the matter was regarded as concluded.
Mr. Phillips was requested to submit his offers in writing. He did
not agree to do SO.
RECOMMENDATION
It is the opinion of the Government's conferees (1) that the nego-
tiations with the Seagram Company have definitely broken down; (2) that
Hiram Walker has no intention of undertaking to work out an agreement
with the Government; and (3) that unless substantial concessions are
made, no agreement is possible with Consolidated Distillers.
You will recall the following provision in the Department's memo-
randum of April 10, which was agreed to by the State Department:
Regraded Unclassified
27
Memo. for the Secretary --3
"5. If negotiations with the companies carried on in
accordance with the foregoing should be fruitless as to any
one of the following companies, namely: Distillers Corpora-
tion-Seagrams, Hiram Walker--Gooderham and Worts, Consoli-
dated Distillers, and United Distillers, the Treasury Depart-
ment and the Department of Justice will be free to proceed
with the legislation."
Inasmuch as the negotiations have proved to be fruitless with the
Seagram Company, and without regard to the status of negotiations with
the other companies, it is the opinion of the Government's conferees that
the legislation pending before the Senate Finance Committee should be
proceeded with at this time in accordance with the understanding had
among the three Departments at the time the negotiations were begun; and
that recommendation should be made accordingly to the Chairman of the
Senate Finance Committee by the Secretary of the Treasury and the Attorney
General.
GRAVES
28
May 1, 1936
HM, Jr. called the President and said he had talked
to Cochran again and the interesting thing is that the
British Stabilization Fund deals directly with the French
banks; that the British will do all they can to keep the
French from devaluing; that we bought another $500,000
worth of gold last night and that Cochran 16 going to
see Schacht on Sunday -- he knows him personally and is
going to see what he can find out.
on
At the group meeting asked the question whether the
provision in the pending tax bill which places a tax on
undistributed earnings is fair to the small business man.
He said no one had convinced him that it was, He said,
Ordinarily, big corporations are a handicap to the little
fellow. Will this be an additional handicap to the small
dealers? He turned to Haas and said, "If there are answers
to this question, three cheers! But if there are not,
let's be big enough and correct it. The pride of author-
ship is not the important thing if it is going to hurt
small business." He added, "I have not had an answer
to my question from anyone.
29
May 1, 1936
Dr. Viner came to Washington today from Chicago. The
attached memorandum, in HM, Jr's handwriting, lists the things
the Secretary wants Viner to do while he is here.
Regraded Unclassified
Take Viner filne
study china
Mexico alve
chart shring
huce levels -
his interputator
of our price buil
in relation to
alter countries
in care Frank
any sug gesters
blevalues
31
OFFICE
OF
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
WASHINGTON
THE
SECRETARY
May 2, 1936.
MEMORANDUM TO SECRETARY MORGENTHAU
In Re: Mexican Negotiations.
There are two points in the Mexican memorandum which
call for attention.
First, on page 2, paragraph d, the Central Bank "would
be authorized to acquire silver up to twenty-five per cent
of its gold and foreign currency in stock, plus fifteen
million pesos additional". This would make the twenty-five
per cent ratio a maximum, with no obligation on the part of
the Central Bank to hold any silver whatsoever as a reserve.
What you would want presumably is that the twenty-five per
cent should be a minimum.
Second, the memorandum ends on the theme that "the
Government of Mexico looks forward to securing a price con-
siderably higher than those prevailing today in the inter-
national markets". I see no reason why we should encourage
them in this aspiration. Mexico is profiting sufficiently
from the fact that we are providing a market for their silver
at an artificially high price to make it altogether unrea-
sonable on their part to ask us to pay still more. Aside
from these two points, it seems to me that the Mexican
arrangement is along satisfactory lines, leading to some
absorption of silver by Mexico herself and reasonable coopera-
tion with Mexico in establishing a currency system suitable
to her needs.
gredoViner
Regraded Unclassified
32
May 4, 1936
Mr. Thomas L. McCerter, of New Jersey, saw the
Secretary today. He said the holding companies would
like to get rid of the subsidiary companies, but they
are balked by the provision in the 1935 Tax Act. He
would like to see that Act amended 80 as to reasonably
eliminate the difficulties of taxation on mergers.
HM, Jr. suggested that he incorporate his views
in a memorandum and sena them to him personally, in
care of Mrs. Klotz, and he would have our General Counsel
study them.
Regraded Unclassifie
COPY
35
PUBLIC SERVICE CORPORATION OF NEW JERSEY
Public Service Terminal
80 Park Place
Office of the
Newark, N.J.
President
May 5th, 1936.
My dear Mr. Secretary:
Yesterday I explained generally the situation of
our Company. I stated that we were very desirous of simplify-
ing our corporate structure. I pointed out that our sympathies
all lay in the direction of simplification. I then stated that
some method should be provided under which the simplification
of corporate structures could be brought about without risk of
unbearable and unknown tax limbilities,
Section 112 (b) (6), which was added last year to the
Revenue Act of 1934 by section 110 of the Revenue Act of 1935,
was adopted by the Congress to facilitate simplification of cor-
porate structures. In general principle, the section meets with
my full approval. However, two technical difficulties are en-
countered in its application:
First, the section requires the ownership of 80 per
centum of each class of stock. In our case this is quite impossi-
ble. We do own more than 80 per centum of all the voting stock
of our principal subsidiary, but one class of preferred stock is
in the hands of the public and has been for years. It would seem
to me adequate if the parent company owned, for example, 80 per
centum of all the voting power in the subsidiary. Certainly the
result to the parent upon the merger of its subsidiary is identical,
All the properties of the subsidiary will go to the parent. None
will be distributed to the outside stockholders. Likewise, it
would seem to me that the Government would be adequately protected,
and certainly as well protected as under the present law.
Second, I am advised that, under the present law, the
properties of the subsidiary when transferred to the parent would
be given an entirely new basis upon which depreciation is to be
computed. The law requires that the existing basis, which has
been established only after many years of examinations and confer-
ences with the Bureau, be abandoned; and that a new basis be pre-
pared through a method of allocating to the properties some per-
centage of the cost to the parent of its stock in the subsidiary.
Our accounting officers advise me that this allocation is not only
most difficult and complex, but can not be made with any degree of
certainty. It would seem to me that both simplification and
Regraded Unclassified
Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,
May 5th, 1936. 34
-2-
safety would require that depreciation of a subsidiary's proper-
ties continue on exactly the same basis after the liquidation as
it did before.
With these two technicalities of the present law re-
moved, I am confident that we will be in a position to bring about
a most desirable simplification of our corporate structure, and
I would assume that many other corporations are in a similar situa-
tion.
I have asked our General Counsel to prepare appropri-
ate amendments to carry out the policies I have suggested. They
are as follows:
Amend the first sentence of section 112(b)(6) to read
as follows:
"No gain or loss shall be recognized by a corporation
upon a statutory merger or consolidation with another cor-
poration, if the corporation is the owner of voting stock
(in such other corporation) possessing at least 80 per centum
of the total combined voting power of all classes of stock
entitled to vote (whether or not such merger has the effect
of a liquidation of such other corporation), or upon a. com-
plete liquidation of such other corporation."
Insert an appropriate provision in section 113(a)(6)
so as to exclude therefrom a transaction described in section
112(b)(6).
Insert an appropriate provision in section 113(a) (7)
so that this section will include a transaction described in sec-
tion 112 (b) (6).
I appreciated very much indeed the sympathetic consid-
eration you gave to the problem I discussed.
Very truly yours,
(Signed) Thomas N. McCarter,
President.
Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,
Secretary of the Treasury,
Washington, D. C.
Regraded Unclassified
35
May 4, 1936
HM, Jr. was very much annoyed at Haas for not looking
out for his men. McLeod broke down physically because of
overwork and HM, Jr. felt that it was up to Haas to see that
nothing like that happened in his Division. Mr. Morgenthau
said that rather than have anything like that happen in the
Treasury, he would rather ask Congress for an adjournment.
He said that he personally looks after the heads of the vari-
ous Divisions with whom he works closely and he expects the
head of each Division to look after his subordinates.
Regraded Unclassi
36
May 4, 1936
HM, Jr. said the President called him at Fishkill in
regard to appointing a man by the name of Truitt in place
of Jackson. Truitt is Solicitor for the Reconstruction
Finance Corporation. Oliphant told the Secretary he did
not think well of this appointment at all and would send
HM, Jr. a memorandum. (Copy of memorandum attached.)
(This applicant was endorsed by Jerome Frank in a
letter, dated April 9, addressed to Mr. Edward Greenbaum
and sent to the Secretary by Mr. Greenbaum. Copy attached.)
Regraded Unclassified
37
May 4, 1936
Secretary Morgenthau
Herman Oliphant
In re: Max O'Rell Truitt, Solicitor of
Reconstruction Finance Corporation,
for position of Assistant General
Counsel for the Bureau of Internal
Revenue.
Through Willcox and Harlan I have been able to get the fol-
lowing information about Truitt.
He is from St. Louis and is about 38 years old. Attended one
of the local law schools and is married to Senator Barkley's daughter.
Snodgrass, who holds a high position in the legal staff of
R. F. C. and who works very close to Truitt, makes the following con-
fidential statement to Willcox about him: "When he thought of leaving,
one of his former partners urged Jones to keep him in Washington 'for
the good of the R. F. C. and the firm.' He is something of a busy-body,
creating work for himself - conscientious, but not 'too wide between
the eyes' - a pretty good trader - apt to start things he can't or
doesn't finish. He has thrown several monkeywrenches, and the
directors would vote a leather medal to anybody that took him away
from the R. F. C."
Jim Alley, General Counsel of R. F. C., told Harlan confiden-
tially that he is a very mediocre type of lawyer; the position he
holds is one which was created to take care of him, and, he will be
very glad to have us take him off his hands.
(Signed) Herman Oliphant
JGH-hbk
38
COPY
Washington, D. C.
1016 Interior Building.
April 9th, 1936
Mr. Edward Greenbaum,
C/o Greenbaum, Wolff and Ernst,
285 Madison Avenue,
New York, New York.
Dear Eddie:
PERSONAL AND CONFIDENTIAL
The suggestion has been made in certain quarters that Max
Truitt be named 8.6 successor to Bob Jackson as General Counsel
for the Bureau. Max is now Solicitor (not General Counsel) for
RFC. Confidentially, his life over there has not been an al-
together pleasant one, because he has refused to be a rubber
stamp for the Chairman; I am making this statement because his
relations to the Chairman might be a matter of interest to the
Secretary.
I have worked with Max on many matters, and particularly
in connection with the Missouri-Pacific - Van Sweringen matters.
He is an excellent lawyer, and has admirable common sense and
poise. I have seen him handling his administrative activities,
and there he functions beautifully; he knows how to guide and
counsel his numerous assistants, and how to keep the work moving.
His integrity 16 beyond question. He happens to be the son-in-
law of Senator Barkley of. Kentucky. He is a good friend of,
and highly regarded by, Stanley Reed. I think he would be an
ideal man for the job.
Yours sincerely,
(Signed) Jerome
Jerome N. Frank.
P.S. He is a liberal conservative.
39
May 4, 1936
HM,Jr. told Gaston and Mrs. Klotz this afternoon
that over the week-end the thought came to him that he
might like to go on the air on the night of Sunday,
June 14, and say something like this: This is the night
of June 14. Fifty weeks out of the 52 weeks of this
fiscal year have passed. Let us take a look at the
deficit as it 1s tonight. What did the President say
it would be? Going today on the assumption that the
deficit at the end of 50 weeks of this fiscal year will
be less than it was the previous fiscal year (and at the
same time I want to say that tomorrow we add to the books
of the Treasury $2,300,000,000 for the bonus) that up to
tonight the President has lived strictly within his budget
message and has done what he said he would do.
The Secretary met Mr. Paley, of the National Broad-
casting Company, and Mr. Paley told him that it was about
time he made another radio speech and HM, Jr. took occasion
at that moment to tell him about the thought he had that
he might want to go on the air on June 14th. Mr. Paley
said that Jim Farley was scheduled for June 14 to speak on
the bonus, but that they would put him aside if the Secre-
tary really wanted to talk.
HM,Jr. checked this with Steve Early, who said he
thought it was all right, but that HM,Jr. ought to be
sponsored by someone rather than have it look as though
he was asking for the chance to talk. HM,Jr. told Steve
Early that he was not running for office and there was
nothing that he really wanted, but that if he did talk at
all he would do so feeling that it was good for the Presi-
dent.
The Secretary asked Gaston to see the three broadcast-
ing stations and try to arrange an hour for him. He said
he does not want to give it to any one company alone.
Regraded Unclassified
ADDRESS OFFICIAL COMMUNICATIONS TO
THE SECRETARY OF STATE
40
WASHINGTON, s.c.
Office of the
RECEIVED
MAY - 4
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
WASHINGTON
Assistant Solicitor
May 4, 1936.
My dear Mr. Bell:
Mr. Hackworth and Mr. Pasvolsky have told me of
the extremely interesting conference which they had
the other day with you end your associates. I am
glad that it was possible to arrange this useful
exchange of views.
In accordance with your request, I enclose here-
with B. brief memorandum on the "Policy Aspects of
Proposed Treasury Action Under Section 303." While
the statement is necessarily somewhat rough, it contains
what we believe to be the essential considerations
involved.
Sincerely yours,
Hanch B. sayre
Assistant Secretary
Enclosure:
Memor andum.
Billottor Assistant
1336 V - MAY
The Honorable
Golden W. Bell,
RELISON
Assistant Solicitor General,
the jo eogo
Department of Justice.
Regraded Unclassified
Department of state
BUREAU
DIVISION
/
TA
ENCLOSURE
TO
Letter drafted 5-2
ADDRESSED TO
The Honorable Bell
/ / / /
41
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
DIVISION OF TRADE AGREEMENTS
MEMORANDUM
May 1, 1936.
POLICY ASPECTS OF PROPOSED TREASURY ACTION
UNDER SECTION 303
1. The German practices against which the Treasury
contemplates the imposition of countervailing duties
arise out of the foreign exchange control operating in
that country. They should, therefore, be appropriately
regarded as currency measures, constituting special forms
of currency depreciation. This nature of the practices
in question 18 entirely clear in the case of blocked
marks, ASKI marks, and barter transactions. The scrip
procedure, although somewhat more complicated, is of the
same general character. The bond procedure is more of a
borderline case and may conceivably fall outside the
sphere of purely currency measures.
2. Currency manipulation of the general type used
in Germany 1s employed by a number of other European
countries and by several countries in South America. If
it is decided to invoke Section 303 against Germany, it
1s difficult to see how the Treasury can fail to invoke
the provisions of that Section against the other coun-
tries employing the same practices.
3. The
Regraded Unclassified
42
- 2 -
3. The invocation of penalties against currency
procedures which involve partial depreciation 1s bound
to cause ill-feeling and 1a likely to lead to retalia-
tion, especially in view of the fact that no punitive
action was taken by foreign countries concerned against
the depreciation of the dollar and the other currency
measures adopted by us.
4. Treasury action under Section 303 against such
South American countries as Argentina, Brazil, Chile,
and Uruguay, which employ multiple currency systems
essentially similar to that of Germany and against which
countervailing action would logically become unavoidable
once it 18 taken against Germany, would be particularly
unfortunate in view of the approaching conference at
Buenos Aires.
5. In addition to the ill-feeling that it would
generate, countervailing action against currency measures
would result in substantial injury to our export trade.
There appears to be no doubt that Germany 1s experiencing
at the present time genuine difficulties in procuring
dollar exchange with which to pay for her imports from
the United States. Her purchases from the United States,
particularly of agricultural products and certain raw
materials such as cotton, fruit, tobacco, lard, lumber,
petroleum, and copper, have already been greatly reduced.
Such
Unclassifie
- 3 -
Such trade as still exists has been made possible mainly
by the employment by the German Government of special
currency arrangements. The imposition of countervailing
duties on a long list of Germen goods because of such
arrangements would, of course, reduce our purchases of
Germen goods and thus lead to a still further loss in
our sales to Germany. The same considerations apply to
the other European countries employing currency manipula-
tion and to the South American countries named above.
6. There is no evidence that imports from countries
with multiple currencies are marketed in the United States
on such terms as to compete unfairly with similar domestic
products. The currency procedures employed appear to be
designed primarily to overcome the price and foreign
exchange maladjustments resulting from the depreciation
of some ourrencies, including the dollar, and failure on
the part of the countries employing multiple currencies
to effect a complete depreciation of their currency units.
7. It appears clear that the imposition of counter-
vailing duties against Germany 1s not necessary as a
safeguard for our producers, but would cause a definite
injury to our exporters. Moreover, such action would
result in the creation of new barriers to trade and would,
therefore, run directly counter to the purpose of our
trade
Regraded Unclassified
43
- 4 -
trade agreements program, which is designed to bring
about a reopening of foreign markets for our burden-
some surpluses through a reduction of trade barriers.
2 bix For
CARICE
Regraded Unclassified
43A
Monday
May 4, 1936
HMjr:
Cochran?
H. M.
Cochran:
Yes
HMjr:
Good morning
C:
Good morning, sir
HMjr:
Did you go away over the weekend?
C:
No, because my friend was still in Berlin.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
And I would have had to gone there for Saturday morning.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And we had conferences with the leader that morning.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
And - the leader from that little place -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Now -
HMjr:
Now, Cochran -
C:
I'd better wait here now and see him when I go to Basel
this week-end.
HMjr:
That's all right.
C:
Yes
HMjr:
Now, Cochran -
C:
He has the right dope on that situation.
HMjr:
Do you mean on the election?
C:
No, I mean on - on our neighboring country and on the
Doctor.
HMjr:
How do you mean?
C:
That the appointment of the big fellow, you know, the
military man - ?
HMjr:
Yes
Regraded Unclassified
43B
-2-
C:
is in accord with the Doctor's wishes.
HMjr:
Does what?
C:
It's in accordance with the Doctor's wishes.
HMjr:
Oh, it is?
C:
It strengthens his position for the present.
HMjr:
What is that?
C:
And I say it really strengthens the Doctor's position
at present.
HMjr:
Just a minute - I see.
C:
And I don't think anything there is likely to happen
now.
HMjr:
Well, we'll wait until you - over the week-end - - - -
next week-end.
C:
I'll be going down to Basel probably Friday night.
HMjr:
All right, now -
C:
It's still quiet down here -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Thursday night
HMjr:
0. K.
C:
Otherwise not until Friday night.
HMjr:
Now, Cochran -
C:
Yes
HMjr:
We're getting an awful lot of gold today.
C:
Yes, I know -
HMjr:
And --
C:
-
a telegram at one o'clock.
HMjr:
Yes, well what was the -
what's the situation
right now?
Regraded Unclassified
43C
-3-
C:
Well, I just talked to the Guaranty man who loaned us
some nine billion dollars -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
At half past twelve the National City had done twelve
million over five million - the National City.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And some other people working - and I talked to our
particular friend, you know, at the bank, Cariguel?
HMjr:
Yes
C:
He told me that private banks were taking care all
right of the demand for dollars.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
They raised the quota of this bank so the turn-over is
tremendous.
HMjr:
Now, of course you know the English have let sterling
run up?
C:
Yes, it's -
the paper down there, you see?
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Many of our people could not liquidate theirs.
HMjr:
Are they very nervous?
C:
They're a little nervous here, yes.
HMjr:
Well, now -
C:
There are rumors on the market that the Governor and
some of the more conservative regents of the bank may
resign.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And then there are various rumors that the present
Government likes this situation for a day or two and
if that will continue this Government will give out a
statement on the gold embargo.
HMjr:
When does the Cabinet meet, Wednesday?
C:
Tomorrow -
HMjr:
Tuesday?
Regraded Unclassified
43D
-4-
C:
Yes, Tuesday -
HMjr:
Well, they meet - the Cabinet meets Tuesday? -
Hello?
C:
Yes - yes
HMjr:
Do you think that they'll stay on until June 1?
C:
It's absolutely difficult to say. This man wants to
stay on -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Just a little more now and then he would stay on and
if any drastic action must be taken, he wants to take
it -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Rather than sympathize and let Reynaud do it.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
I mean that's the way it looks today so far.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
Still too early to say, but -
HMjr:
Well, now -
C:
I
this all myself and I sent you one wire and
I'll send you another one this evening.
HMjr:
Well, now Cochran -
C:
Yes, sir
HMjr:
If anything very important happens use the telephone.
C:
All right.
HMjr:
If something very important.
C:
Well, surely if I ever get any word about embargo -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Or a resignation of this Government -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
I'll see that you get it.
Regraded Unclassified
43E
-5-
HMjr:
Yes, use the telephone because the Cable service
is too slow.
C:
Surely -
well, this morning I just summarized the
election and the gold movements up until one o'clock.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And so I'll get in touch with the other people this
afternoon.
HMjr:
O.K. -
Thank you - goodbye.
C:
Goodbye.
Regraded Unclassified
44
May 4, 1936
Dr. Tugwell and his assistant, Mr. Baldwin, and Mr. Bell met
with the Secretary today.
The following is stenographic report of the meeting:
HM,Jr.: Before we get down to actual figures, let me just
tell you what's going through my head. Either today, or tomorrow
or the next day, Dan and I are going to have & pistol put to our
head - at least I think 80 -- by the President and by Hopkins,
because I don't think Hopkins has enough money. I want to tell
you everything I have in my mind. I think that is always the best
way. That's one problem. And Dan and I have to make up our minds
whether this idea of setting up projects, setting up money .....
Dr. Tugwell: That's worried us, because already we are 20
or 30 millions off on that.
Mr. Bell: You mean in the hole?
Dr. Tugwell: Sure! You know that. And that's serious.
HM.Jr.: Whether we are going to do it or not, I don't know.
Whether we are going to be ordered to do it, is something else.
Up to now, the President has thought that when you start something
you ought to have enough money there to finish it. The pressure
is getting more and more each day. How much is Hopkins up against
it?
Mr. Bell: Within the next week he's going to be up against
it in certain sections.
HM.Jr.: It will take me a little while to get around to the
point.
The question I want to ask is this: I haven't got an exact
figure, but I think it is something like 40 or 50 millions to buy
land, from various appropriations.
Mr. Baldwin: About $48,000,000.
HM.Jr.: Of which I understand you claim it is all obligated?
Dr. Tugwell: Yes; all obligated.
Regraded Unclassified
45
-3-
HM.Jr.: I also heard what the President said about complaints.
I don't make any investigation of anybody. You know that.
Dr. Tugwell: I don't care whether you do, Henry.
HM.Jr.: I have had no investigations made. There are & lot
of things which I don't know, if I seem to go around backwards.
Why shouldn't Soil Conservation purchase the land -- why shouldn't
that whole thing be under Soil Conservation in the Department of
Agriculture?
Dr. Tugwell: Well, I don't know. Maybe it should.
HM,Jr.: The $500,000,000 that they have for Soil Conservation
and all the Soil Conservation work they are doing -- why that should
not be in there? I am thinking of the Department of Agriculture.
Dr. Tugwell: We want this thing moved up to the Department of
Agriculture and there is a bill up there to that effect - that's
the Farm Tenant Act.
HM.Jr.: Any chance of that passing?
Dr. Tugwell: I don't know.
Mr. Bell: There really isn't any chance?
Dr. Tugwell: I don't think so. Of course, you understand that
while Soil Conservation Service does all of its work on private lands,
it does not do any on public lands. And you understand that Soil
Conservation of AAA just pays benefits for planning better soil for
crops, but this takes land out and puts it into the public land.
HM.Jr.: Perfectly frankly, I feel this very strongly and I
haven't gotten anywhere on it up to now, that to take what I said is
money which was supposed to be for relief purposes and buy land, it
has never gotten down so dramatically that it is a question LOW of
whether we should take care of people on relief or whether we should
buy land.
Dr. Tugwell: I supposed that question was answered a year ago
when the President told us to do this. You understand, it has been
going on for a long time -- since the spring of 1933.
Regraded Unclassified
46
-3-
HM.Jr.: Where did it start?
Dr. Tugwell: It started in Interior, moved to Hopkins and
transferred to us. I think if you saw the operations of the thing,
you would realize that it is one of the best. You understood, we
pay less than $4.00 an acre for this land. That's the average.
There is some high-priced that was given for recreation purposes,
but, you see, people were taken off these lands and resettled.
HM.Jr.: Where are they resettled? How much of that actually
happened. How many families?
Dr. Tugwell: I could not tell you, because we do most of it
by loan. We give them a Rehabilitation loan. We buy land and if
they have an equity, they resettle themselves, but if they don't,
we give Rehabilitation loan to settle them somewhere else or go
through the Resettlement phase, which is a much longer process.
About 15,000 families.
HM.Jr.: Unfortunately, when I had the time to be interested
exclusively in agriculture, I have never seen it successfully done.
That does not mean it can't be done.
Dr. Tugwell: I think that's right.
HM.Jr.: But I have yet to see - whether you take families off
the hill tops and try to move them somewhere else -- it wasn't
done successfully in New York State anyway. The President moved
1,000 families out of Syracuse
Dr. Tugwell: I think that's another kind of thing.
HM,Jr.: But unfortunately I have never seen it done.
Dr. Tugwell: We have a couple of hundred thousand cases where
it has been done successfully, in this sense. They have begun to
repay back their loan and have supported their families on the place.
HM.Jr.: I thought you said 15,000 families.
Dr. Tugwell: You have to distinguish between Rehabilitation
loans and actual Resettlement where we buy the land and resell it
to them.
Regraded Unclassified
47
+
HM.Jr.: You have $48,000,000 to buy land and I take it
that is all for Submarginal land?
Dr. Tugwell: That is right. Yes.
HM,Jr.: Then you have other money with which to buy good
land?
Dr. Tugwell: Yes.
HM,Jr.: How much?
Dr. Tugwell: I don't know;that comes in as part of the
project.
Mr. Baldwin: We have already, or will buy about 15 or 16
million dollars.
Mr. Bell: Is that in your Rehabilitation program?
Mr. Baldwin: That comes out of the $91,000,000.
HM.Jr.: But the $48,000,000 is exclusively for buying Sub-
marginal land?
Mr. Baldwin: Yes. The program was originally a $114,000,000
program. We actually had $78,000,000 at one time and now we are
down to $48,000,000.
HM.Jr.: And now I am trying to take some of that?
Dr. Tugwell: True, I don't think you can because options are
already accepted.
HM.Jr.: But you don't mind my challenging that in a courteous
manner?
Dr. Tugwell: No.
HM.Jr.: I don't understand it but I would like a lawyer to do
it for me. But I can't get it through my head. Te asked for 4 billion
8. The President intimated that about half of it would be returned to
the Treasury and if we get 5% back we are lucky.
Dr. Tugwell: You understard, most of that did not come out of
the 4 billion 8.
Regraded Unclassified
- 5 -
48
Mr. Baldwin: The $48,000,000, you mean?
HM.Jr.: But I can't get this thing through my head. It
is not for Parks.
Mr. Baldwin: Parks, Grazing Areas, Reclamation Areas. We
have 60 thousand men working now and as soon as we get it
developed we will turn it over to the proper officials.
HM,Jr.: You have the CCC camps?
Dr. Turwell: Some.
HM.Jr.: But these are not lands that are being bought for
the CCC. That is another land program.
Mr. Bell: This is a part of it and the Forest Service has
some.
HM,Jr.: How much have they?
Dr. Tugwell: 12 million.
HM,Jr.: Henry Wallace tells me he has not yet been able to
get a statement from Ickes on how much land will be put in produc-
tion.
Dr. Tugwell: We arrived at & figure that was satisfactory
to the President last year.
HM.Jr.: As I say, I know I am up against an almost impossible
situation but I am going through and above board and make an effort.
Nobody can say I an going behind his back.
Dr. Tugwell: I think this is the most fundamental relief that
you can get.
HM.Jr.: If somebody some day would take these thousand pieces
in this Relief program and make them headed and knew where we were
going, it would be lovely.
Dr. Tugwell: I think it has worked out pretty well.
HM.Jr.: I am sorry - I disagree with you. You mean the whole
relief thing?
Dr. Tugwell: Yes.
Regraded Unclassified
49
-6-
HM,Jr.: We have two million people on direct relief. The
cost of direct relief is constantly mounting and you have at
least one million people who want work and can't get work. It
is all a part of relief.
Dr. Tugwell: It is not a part of the problem of administrative
relief.
HM.Jr.: We are going round and round and round and there are
more people on direct relief today than there were a year ago.
Dr. Tugwell: I think that we are the only people that have
made any contribution to take people off relief.
HM.Jr.: My struggle is pretty big - I expect too big -- but
I would love to argue with you and Harry some evening.
Dr. Tugwell: I think we have 150 thousand families who would
have been on relief who are not now.
HM.Jr.: Let me come back to the 24 - 48 hour basis: The other
thing I would like to do just as soon as Harry has a night and you
have a night.
Dr. Turwell: Any one who has looked into the Rehabilitation
thing says it is the only program that is really good.
HM.Jr.: You have $48,000,000 to take this land out of produc-
tion and the Forest Service has, how much?
Mr. Bell: 12 million. They had $12,952,000 for their whole
program. This is out of the 4 billion 8 and they had $20,000,000
obligated and they have spent $11,000,000.
HM.Jr.: How much altogether would they get?
Mr. Bell: Approximately $25,000,000 for their whole thing and
$12,000,000 was for land. They say they have obligated $20,000,000.
HM.Jr.: What was the rest spent for?
Mr. Bell: Administrative expenses, cleaning it up and so forth.
HM.Jr.: How much more for land?
Regraded Unclassified
50
-7-
Dr. Tugwell: That is all; except the Biological Survey got
some but that was by statute.
HM.Jr.: $60,000,000 for land out of production?
Dr. Tugwell: That is right.
HM.Jr.: How much to buy good land?
Mr. Baldwin: That is mixed up in our other funds: all mixed
up in the projects. It will run from 12 to 15 million dollars.
Dr. Tugwell: I don't think its accurate to separate it from
projects. You can't do a Resettlement job without land.
HM.Jr.: True, but how much would Ickes have to buy? Can you
figure how much he is spending for land?
Mr. Bell: I don't think he is buying any land.
Dr. Tugwell: Of course he 1s.
Mr. Bell: You mean in Reclamation?
Dr. Tugwell: School houses have to have land. It all comes out
of relief funds.
Mr. Bell: He loans 50% of the cost to the School houses and
that is part of the land and part of the project.
Dr. Tugwell: Just the same as we do? He buys land the same as
we do?
HM.Jr.: Let us any $60,000,000 is spent to take land out. How
much good farm land will Ickes bring in through building dams and all
that sort of stuff.
Mr. Baldwin: That is going to be spread over a period of years.
Dr. Tugwell: I think we figure, over a period of two years, it
would be 150 thousand acres. We have not been able to get figures.
HM.Jr.: But the figures on how many the various Reclamation
projects will bring in?
Mr. Bell: Did not the Secretary of Agriculture say something
at Emergency Council Meeting - and the President said he wanted it
confined to 500,000 acres in the Reclamation Service.
Regraded Unclassified
-8-
51
Dr. Tugwell: What we arrivel at was: He gave us $100,000,000
for Reclamation projects and gave us $20,000,000 for buying land and
the other $25,000,000 comes of the 3 billion 3.
HM.Jr.: Have you a regular form of contract that you,use in
buying this land?
Dr. Tugwell: Sure.
HM.Jr.: Could I see that?
Dr. Tugwell: Sure.
HM,Jr.: Maybe I could send somebody over to your shop?
Dr. Tugwell: He could see Dr. Gray or Monroe Oppenheimer.
HM.Jr.: And the other thing, you have over 500 thousand
families that you have taken care of.
Dr. Tugwell: Over 600,000.
HM.Jr.: What is going to happen to these families after July 1st?
Dr. Tugwell: I have no more idea than you.
HM,Jr.: Dan, this is right well prepared. Under Rehabilitation
loans to clients we run out of money in December.
Mr. Baldwin: Yes, all our money will be obligated on the first
of July but a list of those payments are scheduled to go out.
Dr. Tugwell: We make a farm plan which is spaced over a year
for farmers' meetings, which is supposed to rehabilitate them.
HM.Jr.: Then this money comes back? To what approximation?
Mr. Baldwin: About 70%
HM.Jr.: And you have how much for Rehabilitation?
Mr. Baldwin: About 100 million.
HM.Jr.: Would you expect 70% of that to come back?
Mr. Baldwin: Yes, it comes of the miscellaneous receipts.
HM.Jr.: So we can't spend it again?
Regraded Unclassified
52
-9-
Mr. Bell: No, we can't spend it again.
HM.Jr.: Then out of the 275 million?
Dr. Tugwell: On our Resettlement project you will get 100%
back. To sell the farms.
Mr. Bell: That is 22 million and you will not get any of the
land retirement money back?
Dr. Tugwell: I had figured it. I could give it to you roughly.
About another 70 million.
Mr. Bell: That would be 140 million, all told?
Dr. Tugwell: Yes, 140 million. You are going to get interest
on all that comes back.
HM.Jr.: Is that fairly conservative?
Dr. Tugwell: Fairly conservative.
HM.Jr.: All long-term?
Dr. Tugwell: Some over 40 years.
HM.Jr.: Could you give me a memorandum on estimated repayments
by kinds of projects?
Dr. Tugwell: Glad to.
HM.Jr.: Certain types of work where certain money is allotted
and you expect so much back over a period of years? How much each
year and do it by kinds of work?
Dr. Tugwell: All right.
HM.Jr.: I did not know it would be that much.
Dr. Tugwell: Our past experience leads us to believe we will
get back 78% We will get more in some States and in Georgia we
have collected 80% already.
HM.Jr.: Myers averages about 70%
Dr. Tugwell: Our loans are made very carefully.
Mr. Bell: Myers figures about 66 to 70% over a term of years.
Last year it was only up to 56% but this year he will collect some.
Regraded Unclassified
50
-10-
Dr. Tugwell: Rehabilitation loans are two and five year loans --
Five years for capital goods and two years non-capital.
HM.Jr.: Are you still taking on new families?
Dr. Tugwell: Yes.
HM.Jr.: Have you set yourself a limit?
Mr. Baldwin: About 625 thousand families.
HM.Jr.: Is that the maximum you have set?
Dr. Tugwell: The maximum for our funds but you add that to
our grants then we will be up to around 700 thousand families.
Mr. Baldwin: The total families we are looking after will be
in excess of 700 thousand.
HM.Jr.: You buy this and that and the other thing and then you
give them some land?
Dr. Tugwell: Not ordinarily.
HM.Jr.: Do you have different types of plans in different parts
of the country?
Dr. Tugwell: Yes, but they are all on one farm. The County
Committee figures what this man needs to be rehabilitated.
HM,Jr.: Have you written it down? Has it ever been explained?
Dr. Tugwell: No, I don't think 80. Perhaps we ought to.
HM.Jr.: Do you have someone who could do that? Just take one
page and show that this is the family we have in North Dakota and this
is what we do for a North Dakota family.
Dr. Tugwell: It would not run by States but by individual
families. They look at this fellow and say he is a one-horse farmer
or a two-mule farmer.
HM.Jr.: Write down for any typical family in the Northwest and
one typical family in the Southwest and show this is what we can do
for them.
Regraded Unclassified
-11-
54
Dr. Tugwell: Sure. Be glad to.
HM.Jr.: Last year I took one week and every morning Hopkins
brought over another man. Te took two hours every morning. For
one solid week we took two hours a day for him to explain the kind
of work in each division.
Dr. Tugwell: How is your week now?
HM,Jr.: Not such a good week.
Dr. Tugwell: I will be glad to do that. We will be very glad
to do it. You ought to take about five different people.
HM.Jr.: I can't do it now all five successive days. But if
I gave 24 hours notice could you get the first fellow ready?
Dr. Tugwell: Be very glad to any time you say.
HM.Jr.: Then I would wait a couple of days and do another fellow.
Dr. Tugwell: I would like to get an understanding of the land
program and Rehabilitation. The Rehabilitation is much the biggest.
HM.Jr.: I would love to do that too and maybe this $48,000,000 -
I would like to have that explained first. Because here is this
thing. I can't put my head in the sand and say this is perfectly
lovely when you have 500 or 600 families. No provision has been made
for them. I have not been in Washington for three years not to know
what is going to happen. Can a person say, you don't have to worry
about these families because they are already taken care of because
he will get by2
Dr, Tugwell: I know you can't.
HM.Jr.: Do you know what I recommended for the President. This
in confidence. I recommended one billion 960 million dollars for
relief for the fiscal year beginning July 1st and 100 million for
Resettlement. That was my recommendation.
Dr. Tugwell: We are in such shape now that 100 million dollars
would not do it because it costs 90 much to put our lands on the
Resettlement.Construction projects. We are over 20 million dollars
short.
HM.Jr.: You mean you have contracted for that much more than you
got?
Dr. Tugwell: Yes. We had money when we started.
HM.Jr.: How many of those projects are there?
Regraded Unclassified
55
-12-
Dr. Tugwell: About 70 active ones.
HM.Jr.: That is your satellite cities?
Dr. Tugwell: No. We only have three of those going on -
Milwaukee, Cincinnati and Beltsville. Bound Brook is an active one.
HM.Jr.: I thought it was agreed you would start one at Buffalo?
You killed Chicago.
Dr. Tugwell: That was never active.
HM,Jr.: You mean you have actually signed contracts for people
for construction work as we do in Procurement?
Dr. Tugwell: No. They are not contract jobs. The only problem
will be that there are houses standing out in the field that have
not been done.
Mr. Bell: But your suburban stuff is in pretty good shape now?
Dr. Tugwell: Except for out here in Berwin.
Mr. Bell: The only thing you have not been able to do is extend
it, but you have brought your limit of costs down to funds available.
Mr. Baldwin: It was necessary to make that transfer to Berwin.
We increased the limit on Berwin.
Mr. Bell: Was it not 26 million we said over last week?
Mr. Baldwin: Yes.
Mr. Bell: That brings them all within the fund?
Mr. Baldwin: Yes.
Dr. Tugwell: You got your original 58 million approved by the
President, Dan?
Mr. Baldwin: We still have 58 million not approved projects
but we don't have the money to start.
Dr. Tugwell: I have & date with the President. I must go.
HM,Jr.: I have about covered the thing. Dan, do you want to
send someone over or should I have Oliphant send one of his lawyers?
Mr. Bell: If you are going to send someone on land contracts
I think you ought to send somebody
You had better send
someone who understands politics.
Regraded Unclassified
-13-
56
Mr. Bell: Somebody handling land purchases for Procurement.
HM.Jr.: Law is his name. And the first morning I know I am
going to have some time, let us get together again.
Regraded Unclassifi
RESETTLEMENT ADRINISTRATION
DIVERION or FINANCE AND CONTROL
ACCOUNTS AND NUBSET CONTROL RECEIVED
STATEMENT - THE ACTUAL of THE PERTILLDENT AS IF BARCH N. 1996 AND THE EXPIRATION in MONTH TO ARE N, (987 OF if FUNDS ALLENTED as IF APPLL to. HM
- EXPENT-
APPROPERATION
4
PURES
BELINE
COTTUATED
rus
re russ
APPLLISM
REPRESENT
1356
100
(IN)
LET
1002
177
MR.
1997
APPEL 1917
DAY DE
AM
197
DPOSE
000019
$ 73,950,000.00
$ 3,705,000.00
13,205,000.00
-
-
1,80,000.00
-
,
641,017.19 I
230,506.00
à
I
#
rue EM APJUSTMENT
050019
2,000,000.00
307,021.90
142,064.54
295,840.00
300,005.23
123,737.21
NOM
- SUBLISTENS HOMESTEADS
00/3996
2,000,714,11
52,710.00
76,199.67
85,414.00
$7,719.00
11,235.47
LIMIT PREASE PRINCITS
20,700,141.42
7,78,005.46
12.044.747,50
2,320,054.20
2,200,006.75
1,24,01,39
617,297.57
LAMO PURPOSE PROJECTS
04/3815
2,000,191.03
314,076.65
377,051.20
270,007.40
209,919.10
104,990.56
LAME PURCHASE PROJECTS
30,000,000.00
78,762.75
19.101.217,25
796,040.69
096,001.26
1,200,405.21
1,300,007.36
1,82,10.3
AND
000072
7,000,000.00
:
269.063.02
62,000.00
672,801.78
40,48.25
224,210.11
RESETTLEMENT provide
050032
2,700,000.00
2.000,000.00
20,000.00
400,000.00
560,000.00
880,000.00
man
31,000,000.00
1,06,60.00
4,049,000.24
1,500,000.00
1.74.63.8
- RESETTLEXT PROJECTS
a
22,700,000.00
511,500.18
21,000,409.12
1,095,485.49
1,971,790.00
2,140,00
2,89,000.10
1,79,47.0
1,05,000.40
- can TO CLIENTS
64,317,950.00
33,307,789.54
11,372,004.10
2,640,001.00
1,421,510.00
- 10 EXPERATIVES
cosose
2.146,930.00
1,942,750.00
41,200,00
71,100.00
71,400.00
DERECT STARTS
050052
2,101,500.00
203.627,94
407,455.00
CREATE
-
10.500.766,05
LIFE M SUPPLIER
we
4,350,000.00
4.041.754,10
- M
150067
LAMP W required results
17,000,000.00
14,306,997.29
1.777,504.47
REDAS
can
1,00.00
5,000.00
1,000.00
500.00
30.00
500.00
50.00
- TRUE no
100,000.00
50.000,00
57,000.00
:t.mm
56,000.00
75,000.00
40,000.00
5,00.00
TMIT RIC
charges
17,437.99
12.007.70
15,000.00
retails
$70,310,000.00
M
19
D.S.
Regr
58
May 5, 1936
Hopkins and Bell met with the Secretary today. The
following conversation took place:
HM,Jr.: Supposing the Treasury said to you, We will
take off all of the so-called red tape. Can you, out of
the 4 billion a go through to July 1?
Hopkins: If the regulations are abolished and we get
no further funds from the Treasury other than the $30,000,000
which is now in the hopper -- that is the 20 and 10 -- then
we need no money until June 1. If the new bill is passed
by June 1 and the money was available, there would not need
to be further scraping of the 4 billion 8. (See Exhibit "A"
attached for this paragraph and for numbers 2, 3 and 4 fol-
lowing.)
(2) If the restrictions are left as they are and if
the bill is signed and the money made available by June 1,
we would require $195,000,000 more money.
(3) If the bill is signed by June 15, PWA would require
$280,000,000 additional, representing an increase of one-
half month's cost or $85,000,000 over the $195,000,000 ea-
timated for June 1.
(4) If the bill 1s signed on July 1, PWA will require
a total of $365,000,000 estimated on the same basis as above.
Mr. Bell: What would you do with $365,000,000?
Mr. Hopkins: That 1s all because of the restrictions.
It 1s not because we would spend it.
(Attached are other statements left with Mr. Morgenthau
by Mr. Hopkins,)
Mr. Hopkins: In my own opinion, there 18 not enough
money available that Dan can get transferred from other
agencies which will keep our stuff going until the new bill
is passed.
HM,Jr.: You are going to have to nick this $1,500,000,000
for about $100,000,000 prior to July 1? After July 1, it
will be easier for Dan to get hold of some of this money, but
I think $100,000,000 is going to be obligated prior to July 1.
Lot's say that these regulations are off, Dan, and Harryhas
allocated to him 1 billion 4, then what you say 16 that the
Regraded Unclassified
59
-3-
men will have done the work in June and it will be owing
to them for work done in June and that they will not be
paid until sometime in July?
Mr. Bell: Yes. The obligation 1a incurred in June,
but not liquidated until July.
HM,Jr.: What I am trying to get out of this meeting
is to find a way out. From the President's standpoint,
it 1s & tremendous mistake to have to admit that part of
the $1,500,000,000 is spent prior to July 1. The fact that
it is obligated does not "cut any ice." The work is done
and we owe the money to the men.
According to your own figures, then, B.B stated on sheet
No. 2 (Exhibit B), we are $80,000,000 apart. In other words,
if you had another $80,000,000 turned over to you, you would
not need any of the $1,500,000,000.
Mr. Hopkins: Yes -- 80 million in addition to the 30
million.
HM,Jr.: What I would like to do, and I can only do it
with your help, 18 to have one more session with the Presi-
dent to see if we cannot get another $80,000,000 for you.
Mr. Hopkins: I think in Tugwell's shop there is 25
million that Dan has hung up on a peg. I think this could
be transferred to me if there was & firm commitment that
this work would be done later. Then take the 25 million
out of the $1,500,000,000 and give it to Tugwell.
Mr. Bell: This cannot be done. The way the thing
stands now 1s that Tugwell will not get any of this
$1,500,000,000 and Hopkins will have to take over Tugwell's
orgenization and complete the Resettlement Program. I think
the President could transfer Tugwell's money to Hopkins now,
which he can use to take him through to July 1. Then when
Hopkins gets the $1,500,000,000 on July 1, he can reimburse
"Resettlement Program" what he borrowed to use for his own
shop.
HM,Jr. told Mr. Hopkins to go into Bell's office and
talk the thing through further and arrange for another
meeting on Thursday at 11:30.
Regraded Unclassified
Exhibit A. 60
ESTIMATED AMOUNT OF FUNDS NEEDED BY WPA
Assuming That Present Financial Procedure is not Revised
Experience indicates that under present financial
procedure balances must be kept in the states at least six
weeks in advance of actual obligations. This is caused, of
course, by the necessity for setting up encumbrances for each
of the 60,000 projects in operation. On this basis the
estimates are as follows:
If the Bill is signed June 1, WPA would require a
total of $195,000,000 additional, representing the $110,000,000
additional funds needed through June plus one-half month's
requirement of $85,000,000.
If the Bill is signed June 15, the WPA would require
$280,000,000 additional, representing an increase of one-half
month's cost or $85,000,000 over the $195,000,000 estimated for
June 1.
If the Bill is signed on July 1, the WPA will require
a total of $365,000,000, estimated on the same basis as above.
61
Exhibit B.
ESTIMATED AMOUNT OF FUNDS NEEDED BY WPA
Assuming that Present Financial Procedure is Revised
If the revised financial procedure is agreed to, the
WPA will need the following sums in addition to the $1,402,000,000
allocated as of April 20 ($30,000,000 has been signed by the
President and is now pending).
These estimates are minimums on the assumption that
the funds could be obligated on a theoretically perfect basis
in each State and in each District.
If the new appropriation is signed June 1, present
funds, including the $30,000,000 pending, should be sufficient.
Realistically, however, there should be at least $10,000,000
available to meet acute situations that are inevitable in
certain States no matter how carefully the money is allotted.
If the Bill is signed on June 15, the WPA will need
an additional $85,000,000, or $55,000,000 in addition to the
$30,000,000 pending. A similar margin of safety of $10,000,000
additional should be allowed at this point.
If the Bill is signed on July 1, the WPA will need
$110,000,000, or $80,000,000 in addition to the $30,000,000
now pending.
Regraded
62
WORKS PROGRAM EMPLOYMENT
TOTAL
W.P.A.
C.C.C.
ALL OTHER
Actual
b. 15
3,819,000
3,018,000
467,000
334,000
rch 14
3,845,000
3,000,000
449,000
396,000
ril 18
3,558,000
2,634,000
403,000
521,000
EStimated
y 15
3,445,000
2,450,000
395,000
600,000
ne 15
3,400,000
2,350,000
390,000
660,000
TE: W.P.A. Obligations will not vary in exact relationship to employment because:
1) Payrolls must be met after an employee is separated up to the amount
already earned by that employee.
2) Erratic fluctuations in material purchases, method of obligating pay-
rolls, and other technical considerations.
May 5, 1936.
63
WPA FUNDS
April 20, 1936
Total allocated
$1,402,000,000
Obligated
1,107,000,000
Unobligated
295,000,000
Estimated requirements
April 20 - June 30
405,000,000
Additional funds required
to June 30
$110,000,000
Now pending
30,000,000
Additional funds*
80,000,000
Total allocated as of June 30
$1,512,000,000
"This sum is estimated on an actual obligated basis and
assumes that the proposed change in financial procedure
will be effectuated in order to allow flexibility in the
use of funds within each limitation of the Act within
a State.
OBLIGATIONS AND EXPENDITURES FOR WPA PROGRAM
Obligations
Checks Issued
Monthly
Cumulative
Monthly
Cumulative
to end
to end
of Month
of Month
Actual
Sept. 30
61,410,000
61,410,000
22,935,000
22,935,000
October
74,784,000
136,194,000
35,695,000
58,630,000
November
117,400,000
253,594,000
61,068,000
119,698,000
December
189,206,000
442,800,000
136,955,000
256,653,000
January
178,381,000
621,181,000
167,920,000
424,573,000
February
182,677,000
803,858,000
164,324,000
588,897,000
March
188,495,000
992,353,000
191,529,000
780,426,000
April -20 days
114,346,000
1,106,699,000
1
118,031,000
898,457,000
Estimated
=
April (30 days)
180,000,000
1,172,353,000
1,162,00
May
172,000,000
1,344,353,000
1,320
June
165,000,000
160
1,509,353,000
1064'1
May 5, 1936
64
Regraded Unclassifi e
65
Estimated Cost of WPA - May.
State projects
$150,000,000
NYA
7,000,000
Federal - WPA
6,000,000
Administration
6,000,000
Land Utilization
Resettlement Administration . 3,500,000
Total
$172,000,000
66
STATUS OF FUNDS ALLOCATED TO SPECIFIED AGENCIES
April 20, 1936
Allocations
Obligations
Checks
Incurred
Issued
Works Progress Administration $1,401,778,000
$1,106,699,000
$898,457,000
Resettlement Administration
230,398,000
137,773,000
88,791,000
Public Works Administration
Non-Federal
346,105,000
318,331,000
59,071,000
Public Works Administration
Housing
101,373,000
27,169,000
13,801,000
Puerto Rico Reconstruction
Administration
33,377,000
6,566,000
3,272,000
Treasury Department
54,241,000
26,919,000
24,832,000
Reclamation Bureau
76,680,000
38,828,000
10,023,000
May 5, 1936
67
May 5, 1936
HM,Jr. told McReynolds today that if the State Depart-
ment wants to make another move with the Canadians about
the liquor situation, it is agreeable to him, but he wants a
letter or a promise from Secretary Hull and nobody else that
beginning with Monday we can go ahead, full steam. He wants
the backing of the State Department on this bill to go ahead
on Monday.
***
HM,Jr. told Bell that he saw the President at lunch
yesterday and put the following proposition to him: that
he would see Hopkins today (Tuesday) and tell him that if
he spends $75,000,000 in June or $25,000,000 out of the
$1,500,000,000, everybody is going to say, "Not only will
the $1,500,000,000 not last, but they have nicked it already
in June. It is all a fake. It will not even last six
months." The President said, "What do you want? Are you
willing that I drive a bargain with Harry that if he will
not spend a nickel out of the $1,500,000,000 this year, we
will raise the barriers?" HM,Jr. said, "I think it would
be a terrific mistake if he starts spending out of the
$1,500,000,000 this year," and the President said "O.K."
HM,Jr. then said to the President, "I have sent a
lawyer over to Tugwell to check up and see if all of the
$48,000,000 which he has to spend on the purchase of land
has been obligated and if not, they should cancel the un-
obligated balance." The President approved.
68A
Tuesday
May 5, 1936
HMjr:
Hello -
H.M.
Cochran:
Hello -
HMjr:
Cochran?
C:
Yes, Mr. Morgenthau -
HMjr:
Good morning
C:
Good morning, sir
HMjr:
How are you?
C:
Quite all right
HMjr:
What's new?
C:
The morning started out rather quietly -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- up until noon the Guaranty had sold only three million
dollars -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- as compared with six yesterday noon.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But I just talked with the Guaranty now and with Cariguel -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
They both report much greater activity since twelve
o'clock.
HMjr:
Now, what does that mean?
C:
Up until this hour - it's now three o'clock here - it
has done nine million alone.
HMjr:
Who has?
C:
The Guaranty
HMjr:
Has done nine million?
C:
Yes -
Yesterday all day they did thirteen.
HMjr:
What's that?
68B
-2-
I say, during the whole day yesterday the Guaranty
did thirteen million -
HMjr:
Well, does that mean that from now on - I mean today
it's gotten worse?
8:
Since noon it has gotten worse than this morning and is
going at about yesterday's rate now.
HMjr:
At about yesterday's pace?
C:
Yesterday's speed -
HMjr:
Yes - yes
C:
Because having been nine now they'll probably reach thir-
teen by evening.
HMjr:
Yes - hello -
C:
National City is the only other one in.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
In the market. The British control is intervening
actively -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And having a big day at seventy-five and seven sixteenths.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
The same rate at which they
yesterday.
HMjr:
Well, it's - we figured it out -
yes, yes -
now -
C:
Seventy-five and seven sixteenths -
HMjr:
Now, let me ask you something, have you seen Criguel
today?
C:
I talked with him on the phone just a while ago -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But I am going to see him at half past five this evening.
HMjr:
You are going to see him when?
C:
At half past five.
HMjr:
Yes
Regraded Unclassified
68C
-3-
&
I saw him yesterday morning, - you know? Have you
got that message ?
HMjr:
Now - hello?
C:
It's a summary of today.
HMjr:
Yes - hello?
C:
Hello - It's a Cochran message in which is summarized
the day's developments.
HMjr:
Yes - they - Lochhead got that late last night.
C:
Well, I'll - I'll send this other one right fast for
Tuesday.
HMjr:
You will?
C:
Yes - I'll see him at five-thirty.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Yes - I'll see him at five-thirty.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And the Cabinet meeting is going to be at four-thirty
this afternoon.
HMjr:
Four-thirty?
C:
I talked with Baumgartner -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- of the Ministry of Finance at noon.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And at that time he did not think any important decision
could be taken this afternoon.
HMjr:
He doesn't think so?
C:
No, but of course this financial situation has gotten
worse since the three hours ago.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But whether its had enough to cause them to take any
decision yet I doubt.
HMjr:
Well now -
C:
The Ministry, you know -
-4-
HMjr:
Hello?
C:
Hello -
HMjr:
Let me ask you -
C:
must not put any restrictions on
HMjr:
Now, wait a minute, I want to ask you a question.
C:
Yes
HMjr:
Do you think that the present cabinet will continue
until June one?
C:
It depends entirely on this monetary development.
HMjr:
What's that?
C:
It depends entirely on this franc situation.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
If this run continues as it has yesterday -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
and today I do not think this Cabinet can last.
HMjr:
This what?
C:
I do not think this Government can stay in until June.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
If this pressure lets up the next day or two I think
they will continue it.
HMjr:
Yes - well. -
C:
But I do not think this Government ought to take any
restrictive measures -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
If restrictive measures seemed imperative they would
probably step out and leave it to the Socialists.
HMjr:
They would?
C:
Yes, now that's the way it looks today.
68E
-5-
Well, in other words if this gold continues -
=
Yes
HMjr:
-- the chances are that the Cabinet will be forced out?
8:
That's it, yes.
HMjr:
I get you.
C:
Yes
HMjr:
Well now, don't hesitate, if anything happens from the
Cabinet or anything from Cariguel - use the telephone.
C:
I didn't get your last sentence.
HMjr:
If anything important happens use the telephone.
C:
Surely.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But I'll see my friend at five-thirty -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
a Cabinet meeting a little later.
HMjr:
Well, you'll see him in what - about three hours?
C:
Yes
HMjr:
O.K.
C:
And if there's anything urgent I'll telephone - if not
I'll send a rush message.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Summarizing it.
HMjr:
All right
C:
Goodbye
HMjr:
Thank you - goodbye.
non
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
OF NEW YORK
69
ECE CORRESPONDENCE
DATE May 5, 1936.
IDENTIAL FILES
SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION
L. 1. Knoke
WITH BANK OF FRANCE
I called Mr. Cariguel at 11:33 a. m. today. He stated that
Emorning had been fairly quiet in Paris but that since noon the drain
them was heavy again. The British had up to then done 250,000,000
acs and in addition $20,000,000 worth of gold had been engaged for
coment to New York and that was not the end yet. Belgium was also
Eing some gold from them but neither the Swiss nor the Dutch rate had
ched gold point. Shipments to New York were moving smoothly and some
the gold was being diverted by aeroplane to London and Holland. There
no evidence of hoarding by the public in France; nevertheless, as the
rures indicated, export of capital was going on on a large scale. I
zed whether the gold was being paid for in hoarded notes or entirely
means of discounts. Cariguel thought that whilst some of the hoarded
tes might be coming back for conversion into gold the bank's portfolio
ald undoubtedly show & heavy increase.
I made reference to rumors that Spain was shipping gold to
ris. Cariguel confirmed this; he added that the amount was only small,
Lie shipment consisting of gold coin which the Spenish Central Bank was
alling to the public in Paris in order to take advantage of the premium
coins.
I spoke of the cabinet meeting which, according to reports re-
eived here from Paris, was now being hold there and asked whether, in
is opinion, the present government would stay in until the end of the
bonth and if so, whether they would continue their present policy.
Bariguel replied that he did not of course know how long the old government
yould last but expressed the opinion that as long as it was in office it
Regraded Unclassified
ITS
10-35
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
OF NEW YORK
69-A
CE CORRESPONDENCE
DATE May 5, 1986.
FIDENTIAL FILES
SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION
L. N. Knoke
WITH BANK OF FRANCE
- 2 -
ald defend the franc as heretofore. If the pressure becamette
rong, they might turn the helm over to thenext fellow. With regard
the "new peoplep he thought they would be quite tame and tolerant.
I asked Cariguel, if at all possible, to keep ne posted as
developments and he promised he would do his best.
WK:KMC
Regraded
70
May 5, 1936
At Taylor's house, last night, Bewley told me that he
111 not wish to take advantage of seeing me at dinner, but
no wanted me to know that he had cabled to England my query
and had received no answer. He evidently was quite embar-
rassed that he had not received an answer. I assured him
that I had gone Chinese in my philosophy and that a week or
& year meant very little to me. I told him it seemed un-
fortunate that we could not be civilized and have 8. channel
open to exchange information. He completely agreed with me.
The whole conversation was, on the surface, in a very light
vein, but underneath both of us were very serious.
He asked me whether he could have any information on
the Chinese negotiations and I told him that he would have
to be patient for 8. few more days as we could not give him
any information until the negotiations were completed. I
said to Bewley, "I can tell you this: our negotiations are
not selfish and our motives are in the best interests of
China." He also made a funny remark. He said, "What do
you hear about Leith-Ross?" and I said, "Very little." He
said, "Well, don't you know what he is doing?" and I said,
"No; don't you?" He said, "They don't keep me informed
at all."
If Bewley did not get the point of my conversation when
he was at the office, namely: that I WE.6 trying to open a
channel to exchange information, he certainly got it last
night. He said, "What do you think 1a going to happen in
France? Do you think they will devalue?" and I said, "I
think their first move will be an embargo on gold and that
will not be 80 good for England, will it?" And he said,
"No," and I think I implied at that point that if this hap-
pens it would be useful to have a channel opened to exchange
information. Taylor added that before Bewley left he said
to him, "I certainly think it would be desirable to have a
channel open."
*****
HM, Jr. called the President at 9:20. This 1s their
conversation:
"I Just talked to Paris and the Cabinet meets at. 4:30
Paris time. That 1s in about two hours. The situation,
70A
-2-
to boil it down, 18 this: 1f the monetary situation con-
tinues 28 acute as it is now, they have got to do something
because it 18 going 80 fast, Up to noon it did not 80 20
rapidly and suddenly it took another spurt. Cochran feels
if the pressure on the franc continues, then the Cabinet has
to do something. This Cabinet does not want to do anything
and, therefore, they will resign. If the pressure lets up,
they will continue until June 1. Our guess is that they
will not do the clean-cut thing (80 to an immediate devaluation)
but they will embargo."
He told the President that he was at Taylor's house last
night for dinner and that Bewley was present. HM, Jr. related
to the President their conversation as it 1s recorded on page
one herewith.
HM,Jr. then told the President the following: "The thing
that you and I have to make up our minds about is this: 11
this gold continues to come in, the American banks and the
American steamers will be filled up and the Bank of France
will most likely ask us for help, and the question 18, Do we
want to help them? They have not asked us yet."
The President then asked, "What would happen if we would
not let this gold in? Where would it go?" HM, Jr. said the
franc would 80 down and Sterling would go up. "That would
not bother us much, but it would be very embarrassing for
England and it might force them to come and see us. Our
only worry 1s when Sterling begins to drop and as long B8 it
goes up, why worry? My only feeling is that I want to see
this thing cleaned up and I Just feel that France has to do
it sooner or later and if we give them another artificial
stimulant to tide them over, it will not do them any good."
The President then said, "In 1935 I believe we brought
in about 18 billion dollars' worth of gold. This year we
will bring in another billion dollars' worth. Gradually
we will drain the whole supply. Then where are well It
1s a little bit like the banker in a small community who
begins to foreclose on a house. He gets the property. Then
another house 1s foreclosed, and another one, and he gradually
gets half of the land in the community. What happens? He
takes the land out of circulation. Finally he gete three-
fourths of the land, Then there 1s no market, because the
land is out of circulation. Instead of profiting by his
70B
purchases, he 18 left holding all the land without any
market and, therefore, it isn't worth anything? I feel
that way about gold.
The President asked, "What are the mechanics? Just
how do we do this?" HM,Jr. replied, "The various banks,
like the Guaranty, the Chase and the Bank of Manhattan,
let's say, take $50,000,000. The banks have reached their
limit when they purchase that amount because they can only
take 25% of their capital and surplus. Then the Bank of
France asks the United States Government, 'Will you not
buy some gold and hold it in France until there is another
boat?' And we say, We are on an international gold bullion
standard and we can't take it any faster than the boats can
bring it in. Of course, Mr. President, they have not asked
us yet, but the above will be the procedure should this ever
come about."
He also said to the President, "By the way, the Chinese
again gave us a demonstration. They detached their money
from Sterling and they attached it to the Dollar, and they
have kept their word. They said they would operate between
the two and today they did it. Their memorendum is in and
we are going over it and any time you want them now for tes,
you can ask them and be very friendly to them."
.....
Those present at the 9:30 meeting were McReynolds,
Upham, Miss Roche, Gibbons, Heas, Taylor, Oliphant and Bell.
The Secretary discussed the case of the two men who
were killed working on a Post Office building at San An-
tonio. He asked McReynolds to investigate the condition
of their families, one of whom was a married man. The
Secretary wants a bill introduced for the relief of the
men's families, due to the fact that because of Government
"red tape" there 1s no compensation provided for accidents
of this sort. The bill would be similar to that suggested
by the Secretary and passed by Congress for the relief of
Mrs. McClary, whose husband, a policeman of Alexandria, Va.,
was killed while assisting the Alochol Tax Unit in capturing
a mountaineer moonshiner.
HM, Jr. turned over to Mr. Oliphant the resolution intro-
70c
duced by Senator King and referred to the Secretary, under
the terms of which the President would be authorized to ex-
tend to the Government of America, including the Dominion
of Canada, en invitation to attend a silver conference, and
asked Oliphant to look into 1t, but added, "I really think
we Just ought to stall on this."
The Secretary had before him a letter from Secretary
Roper inviting the Secretary to name a representative on a
board of three which would conduct an investigation of charges,
made by striking seemen concerning laxity on the part of
the Inspection Service of the Department of Commerce. He
also had a letter from Senator Copeland asking that Admiral
Hamlet be named to a board which has been authorized by Senate
Resolution authorizing the Senate Committee on Commerce to
make recommendations for necessary legislation covering the
safety of life at Bea. (Copies are attached.)
HM, Jr. turned these letters over to Mr. Gibbons and told
him that, in connection with Roper's letter, he did not went
the Treasury to be part and parcel of a whitewash board. He
suggested the following to Mr. Gibbons: "You go over and
see Roper yourself, and tell him in the nicest way you know
how that if he wants a representative of the Treasury, O. K.
but he must be prepared that we will not 'pull our punches'
and we will say just what we think, and unless he is prepared
to have us take that attitude, not to include a Treasury rep-
resentative on the Board."
Gibbons reported to the Secretary that he had received E
letter from a member of the Speakers' Bureau of Democratic
Headquarters, and others in the Treasury had received E similar
letter, including Jack Harlan and Herman Oliphant, asking them
to make campaign speeches. He added that he felt the situa-
tion was becoming very serious. The Secretary said he wanted
to meet with his "Political Committee" either Wednesday or
Thursday evening of this week at his home and would make a
definite appointment tomorrow.
In connection with the question raised by the Secretary
at yesterday's group meeting, concerning possible loopholes
in the pending tax bill and their "plugging", HM, Jr, received
last night at his home the following memorandum from Oliphant:
"After the morning meeting on the tax bill, worked on
Harrison's suggestion of two slight changes to enable him
to have the bill reported favorably.
"With Upham and Kent, saw Beaman, Parker and other
70D
-5-
legislative experts at and after lunch to make a recheck
on possible loopholes, I might say that our own experts
on this are Messrs. Turney, Xent and Lusk, and possible
Ioopholes have occupled most of their time since March first.
"Turney and Kent confirmed my statement this morning
that all major loopholes have been plugged, and there remain
only those miscellaneous minor possibilities of avoidance,
possibilities which we always have in the case of any general
tax bill.
"My recanvass of possible escapes with Beaman, Parker
and O'Brien was not completed because of e special matter
I shall mention below; although on general inquiry they
referred only to Section 27(1) relating to intercorporate
dividends which will have to be reworked because of the last
minute amendment in the House making the dividend year the
anme as the taxable year.
"Instead of Harrison's suggestion of a flat exemption of
$2,000 for corporations with net incomes of less than $20,000,
Parker suggested that we adopt one table (that with the higher
rates), let corporations figure their tax under 1t, and then
tax corporations with incomes of less than $15,000 or $80,000
that fraction of the tax BQ calculated which their income 1a
of $15,000 or $20,000. Much time was spent discussing this
possibility of meeting Harrison's request for simplification,
and it looks promising. George and I worked on it some this
afternoon, and it looks as if it might be adopted without any
loss of revenue.
"I might add generally that having gone through this whole
process in the preparation of the Revenue Act of 1934, and the
Revenue Act of 1935, and knowing how our own staff and the two
steffs on the Hill work, things are moving and are being
handled in the usual way, and, as usual, the process of per-
feating the bill will continue until final enactment.
"Dr. Feis called me about B. cablegram from Flack relative
to the transfer of Brenner in Waite's office in Paris to
Boston. I relayed the message to Gibbons as Feis requested."
HM, Jr's comments to Oliphant were as follows: "You
essumed the responsibility of the tax bill and I am willing
to rely on your judgment that you have it in hand. I place
my reputation in your hands. You have not abused it yet.
However, 8.8 people call various things to my attention, I
will bring them to you. We are gambling to the extent of
$1,250,000,000 in revenue and you fellows must be triply
sure that you are right. I leave it entirely to you and
Haas."
TOE
-6-
Governor Myers sent a letter to the Secretary (copy
attached) in which he asked that if the building at 406
13th Street should become available, it be turned over to
Farm Credit for garage and storage space. HM,Jr. turned
the letter over to McReynolds to investigate and McReynolds
reported today that it is one of the buildings of which
the Treasury is custodian and that at present this building
is leased to A. W. Mellon. He felt it would be an oppor-
tunity for Republicans to hint of "persecution" and would be
100% wrong to take it away from Mellon. HM,Jr. said that
absolutely the Treasury was not to take the property away
from Mr. Mellon, who leases itfor garage space.
Bell mentioned the controversy between Crowley of FDIC
and the Comptroller's office over bills in Congress sponsored
by Mr. O'Connor. Bell said that Crowley had called S.4513
to his attention as being inimical to the interests of FDIC
and asked Bell if it had been cleared through the Budget and
Bell said it had not been. The Secretary asked for 8. memo-
randum on S. 4513, which Bell said he would submit. (Memo
is attached hereto.)
70F
AM termont dount AL 21 000,0018 The
will Tot mill 01 will e
mindell ads III submine muthotoni
8
-ming mushid Dire suiting And in
74TH CONGRESS
Tag 20
S. J. RES. 254 DO
odt The w with
-1100 with fore with To
VIIIT IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES
w APRIL 24 (calendar day, ATRIL 27), 1936
Mr. KING introduced the following joint resolution; which was read twice and
referred to the Committee on Foreign Relations
JOINT RESOLUTION
Authorizing the President to extend to the governments of
America, including the Dominion of Canada, an invitation
to attend a silver conference.
1
Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives
2 of the United States of America in Congress assembled,
3 That the President is authorized to extend to the govern-
4 ments of America, including the Dominion of Canada, an
5 invitation to attend a conference for the purpose of consid-
6 ering and devising plans to increase the use of silver for
7. monetary and other purposes, to bring about stabilization
8 of the price of silver, and to formulate a uniform policy for
9 such governments with respect to silver.
Regraded Unclassified
2
1
SEC. 2. The sum of $100,000, or so much thereof as
2 may be necessary, is authorized to be appropriated for the
3 expenses of such conference, including salaries in the District
4 of Columbia or elsewhere, rent, printing and binding, print-
5 ing of official meeting cards, travel and subsistence, or per
6 diem in lieu of subsistence (notwithstanding the provisions
7 of any other Act), stenographic and other services by con-
8 tract if deemed necessary, and such other expenses as may
9 be deemed necessary by the Secretary of State by reason
10 or such conference.
/ till
THIOL
Register
pas гая VISA
will
If Invoice --
Drp shill W
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Institutions Section - TO =
Reader seaft 8
RE information in minimum Tes surite 3
-lienno - - will Information Il HZ &
not mello of smily fune value 8
units print -11 live T
The 07 To 200g THE 8
ILS sltiw atteinmating done e
Regraded Unclassified
T4TH CONGRESS)
2D SESSION
S. J. RES. 254
JOINT RESOLUTION
Authorizing the President to extend to the
governments of America, including the Do-
minion of Canada, an invitation to attend
a silver conference.
By Mr. KING
APRIL 24 (calendar day, APRIL 27), 1986
Read twice and referred to the Committee on
Foreign Relations
Regrade
71
May 5, 1936
At Taylor's house, last night, Bewley told me that he
did not wish to take advantage of seeing me at dinner, but
he wanted me to know that he had cabled to England my query
and had received no answer. He evidently was quite embar-
rassed that he had not received an answer. I assured him
that I had gone Chinese in my philosophy and that a week or
a year meant very little to me. I told him it seemed un-
fortunate that we could not be civilized and have a channel
open to exchange information. He completely agreed with me.
The whole conversation was, on the surface, in a very light
vein, but underneath both of us were very serious.
He asked me whether he could have any information on
the Chinese negotiations and I told him that he would have
to be patient for a few more days as we could not give him
any information until the negotiations were completed. I
said to Bewley, "I can tell you this: our negotiations are
not selfish and our motives are in the best interests of
China." He also made a funny remark. He said, "What do
you hear about Leith-Ross?" and I said, "Very little." He
said, "Well, don't you know what he is doing?" and I said,
"No; don't you?" He said, "They don't keep me informed
at all."
If Bewley did not get the point of my conversation when
he was at the office, namely: that I was trying to open &
channel to exchange information, he certainly got it last
night. He said, "What do you think 1s going to happen in
France? Do you think they will devalue?" and I said, "I
think their first move will be an embargo on gold and that
will not be 80 good for England, will it?" And he said,
"No," and I think I implied at that point that if this hap-
pens it would be useful to have a channel opened to exchange
information. Taylor added that before Bewley left he said
to him, "I certainly think it would be desirable to have a
channel open."
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
OF NEW YORK
72
FFICE CORRESPONDENCE
DATE May 5, 1936.
CORFIDENTIAL FILES
SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION WITH
OM
L. N. Knoke
BANK OF ENGLAND.
Mr. Bolton called me at 2:39 P. D. and talked to ne along the
following lines:
"What we have in sind at the present moment is this:
There is a very heavy flow of gold from Paris to New York and Cariguel
is having a very difficult time to keep the dollar rate down to 1519.
Re have an order from you to buy gold at $34.77 an ounce. Would it in-
Emper
terest you at all to divert some of the present flow from Paris to New
York and have us hold the gold here for your account? Our assumption
is that you want to prevent some of the movement of gold from Paris to
New York. At the present moment, with gold quoted here at above $34.90,
we cannot of course work at your limit of $34.77 in London. Would you
be interested in having us buy gold for you in Paris at $24.77 plus
cost of shipment from Paris to London, or at a total of about $34.80?
As I said before, Cariguel wants to keep the dollar rate in Paris down.
At the clip st which the gold is moving out now it will soon be a
question of finding accommodation on steamers. If 8 lack of shipping
dollar
facilities should develop, the rate is likely to go up. If you are not
in 8 position to pay more than $34.77, it may of course be possible for
us to work at that figure after the dollar in Paris has broken through
1519. If $34.80 or theresbouts is too high for you to pay, maybe you
can think of a counter proposal."
I told Bolton that we would of course discuss his suggestions
with Washington but that I was a little doubtful because if we acted on
his suggestion the gold would stand us more than $85 per cance 18, nb-
sequently, it had to be removed from London to New York. is long as the
Regraded Unclassified
was
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
72-
OF NEW YORK
FFICE CORRESPONDENCE
DATE May 5, 1936.
CONFIDENTIAL FILES
SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION BITH
Regraded Unclassified
L. 1. Knoke
BANK OF HIGLAND.
ROM-
- 2 -
price for delivery in London did not exceed our limit I did not think we
cared particularly where they bought 1t. If it were bought in Paris
and thus be prevented from coming over here, it seened to no that was
exactly what we were trying to accomplish. I promised, after further
discussion here, to get in touch with him either by cable or by telephone.
Bolton repeated that he had just wanted to put the idea into our mind,
that if we could not pay more than $54.77 we might perhaps be able to
think of a counter proposal. st any rate, he hoped I would do my best.
I then inquired about the situstion in France. Bolton thought
the pressure on franes today was bigger than ever before. I mentioned
that we had heard of gold engagements for shipment to New York totaling
close to $25,000,000 and that we understood the British Fund had pur-
chased about 300,000,000 francs. Bolton replied that their purchases
were a little bigger than that and that, in addition, Belgium had taken
gold. He agreed with me that the Bank of France's tetal loss of gold today
was probably in excess of 600,000,000 francs and repeated that, in his
opinion, the latest attack upon the franc was the most serious one "
had yet seen.
Bolton then mentioned that a story was going around in London
to the effect that Serreut was going to make a statement after New York's
closing; naturally, hobody knew whether that was so nor what he was going
to say.
LNK:KMC
72B
LOCHHEAD'S REPORT TO THE SECRETARY
May 5, 1936
Walked home with the Secretary this evening in order to discuss two
questions which came up this afternoon.
(1) The Bankers Trust Company, New York, received & cable from their
London Office aeking whether gold could be shipped from the United States
to Great Britain by new regulations of the Secretary of the Treasury or
whether further legislation would be necessary to allow such shipments.
The Bankers Trust Company, New York, gave a copy of this cable to the Federal
Reserve Bank of New York, who in turn notified us without advising the Bankers
Trust Company that it had been brought to the Treasury's attention. Such
shipments could of course be made by regulations issued by the Secretary
without further legislation, but it was thought significant that this point
should be brought up by the Bankers Trust Company at this particular time.
(2) The Bank of England called the Federal Reserve Bank of New York
regarding the order placed with them to purchase gold in the London market
at $34.77 per ounce, and a memorandum covering this telephone conversation
is attached hereto. Mr. Knoke was advised to inform the Bank of England
that $34.77 was the maximum price which could be applied to our order to
buy gold in London as any price higher than $34.77 would raise the cost
f this gold when delivered to the United States to over $35 an ounce. It
was decided not to make any counter proposition such as suggested by the
Bank of England. As American banks are apparently taking care of the gold
movement from France to the United States in a satisfactory and normal manner,
the implication by the Bank of England that the Bank of France required some
help in maintaining the dollar franc rate does not seem warranted. Another
Regraded Unclassified
72C
-2-
May 5, 1936
reason for a refusal to raise our buying rate above $34.77 for gold
delivered in London but purchased in France is that this would mean
that we would be paying & higher rate for gold in Paris than the
commercial banks were doing at the present time.
Regraded Unclass
73
Associated Gas
and
Electric
May 5, 1936
Wideman's memo to Secretary outlining present status of
case and requesting interview to settle policy matters.
May 27, 1936
Conference in Secretary's office with Mr. Frederick S.
Burroughs, a Vice President of Associated Gas, and Dr.
Starch, in which Mr. Burroughs protested against Treasury's
activities in connection with Section 77-b.
August 21, 1936
Oliphant's status report. Negotiations under way looking
to possible agreement which would terminate Court proceed-
ings.
September 29, 1936
Mr. Oliphant's memo on latest development in case. Pro-
posed settlement being submitted to Judge Mack.
November 19, 1936
Wideman and Oliphant conferred with Secretary. Associated
Gas 18 endeavoring to arrange some procedure for lifting
the Government's lien so they can do some refinancing.
He also informed the Secretary of proposal to appointment
a commissioner who would attend directors' meetings. Wide-
man said Court might suggest him, to which Secretary gave
no answer or comment.
November 20, 1936
HM,Jr's telephone call with Landis suggesting Kent dis-
cuss with him the proposal to appoint a commissioner.
January 6, 1937
Oliphant's full memo on draft of stipulation with Associ-
ated Glas and Electric.
February 10, 1987
Oliphant's memo reporting on hearings in the chambers of
Judge Mack in which Wideman made it clear Government was
not a party to approval of stipulations and reserved right
to protect not only assets of the Company but to collect its
tax.
Regraded Unclassified
74
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
May 5, 1936
The Honorable,
The Secretary of the Treasury.
My dear Mr. Secretary:
In conference with you several weeks ago you requested
that I keep you in touch with developments in the Associated
Gas and Electric Company case. I have talked to Mr. Oliphant
about it from time to time. The attached memorandum will give
you a general picture of the present status.
The 77B proceedings in New York have been very active. One
phase went to the Circuit Court of Appeals. That Court entered
an order on jurisdictional questions today. The taking of testi-
mony on the question of insolvency will probably commence next
week.
You will note from the enclosed memorandum that major ques-
tions of policy are involved as well as highly technical and com-
plicated legal problems. Although there is no question of policy
calling for an immediate decision, such questions will arise
before long. I shall be glad to confer with you whenever you
wish at such time and place as you may indicate.
Respectfully,
FRANK J WIDEMAN, Widemons
Special Assistant to the Attorney
General.
Regraded Unclassified
75
May 5, 1936
The Honorable,
The Secretary of the Treasury.
My dear Mr. Secretary:
In conference with you several weeks ago you requested
that I keep you in touch with developments in the Associated
Gas and Electric Company case. I have talked to Mr. Oliphant
about it from time to time. The attached memorandum will give
you a general picture of the present status.
The 775 proceedings in New York have been very active. One
phase went to the Circuit Court of Appeals. That Court entered
an order on jurisdictional questions today. The taking of testi-
mony on the question of insolvency will probably commence next
week.
You will note from the enclosed memorandum that major ques-
tions of policy are involved as well as highly technical and com-
plicated legal problems. Although there is no question of policy
calling for an immediate decision, such questions will arise
before long. I shall be glad to confer with you whenever you
wish at such time and place as you may indicate.
Respectfully,
FRANK J. WIDEMAN,
1020 was e W/Special Assistant to the Attorney
General.
BEDNEIVEL DI.
OLEICE
Regraded Unclassified
76
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE
May 5, 1936
In re: Associated Gas and Electric Company
(Taxes).
The Department of Justice entered the above matter on December
20, 1935, when Messrs. Oliphant, Jackson and Kent of the Treasury
Department and Mr. Boyd of the Tax Division conferred with the
Attorney General. That conference was in reference to action to be
taken in the preservation of tax liens existing in favor of the
Government and arising by reason of a jeopardy assessment in the
approximate amount of $50,000,000. At the time of the conference
there was pending before Judge Mack in the Northern District of
New York an involuntary petition filed by certain creditors seeking
the reorganization of the Company under Section 77B of the Bankruptcy
Act, as amended.
On Monday, December 23, 1935, the Government asked, and was
granted, leave to appear in the 77B proceeding as amicus curia.
Since that time we have carefully followed the proceedings in that
case.
Upon the request of the Treasury Department we prepared and,
on Monday, February 24, 1936, filed, in the Northern District of
New York, a Bill in equity for the foreclosure of the tax lien. The
Bill seeks (a) an injunction pendente lite to prevent the Company
from disposing of its assets; (b) a receivership pendente lite to
preserve the assets of the Company; (c) discovery as to the assets
of the Company and their location; (d) a final decree enforcing
the tax lien against the assets. The several defendants have filed
general appearances and have filed motions to dismiss, and, in the
alternative, to strike portions of the Bill.
A study has been made of the objections raised to the Bill and
a memorandum of law embodying the results of that study has been
prepared. The most serious question is whether a Bill to foreclose
a tax lien on personal property falls within the general jurisdiction
Regraded Unclassified
77
-2-
of a court of equity. The contention will be made by the other side,
no doubt, that the Government has a plain, adequate and complete
remedy at law by summary process for distraint and sale. Our study
convinces us, however, that the Bill is maintainable under the cir-
cumstances of this case, There may be minor objections to the Bill
but these are easily curable by amendment. Of course, in the light
of more complete investigation it may be deemed advisable to file
an amended Bill.
There is now pending before the Congress a Bill to authorize
the Federal District Courts to entertain suits for the foreclosure
of tax liens on personal property. I have collaborated with the
Treasury experts in the preparation of this Bill and Mr. Oliphant
tells me that it has a good chance of passing at this session of
Congress. It is deemed best to delay calling up for argument the
Company's motions addressed to the Government's Bill of Complaint
until Congress acts.
Assuming that the motions are denied, we will then be in a
position to ask for an injunction pendente lite. The probabilities
are that this will be granted. A somewhat similar injunction was
granted by Judge Mack in the 77B proceeding last year. If we were
successful in this, the Company would probably attack the validity
of the assessment per se by answer. The anticipated ground of the
attack is that the assessment is arbitrary and capricious; that the
assessment was not arrived at through processes of reasoning which
are requisite to the exercise of this discretion by the Commissioner.
This, in my opinion, would present a justiciable question and the
court would have the power to inquire into the truth of any such
allegation.
Assuming that we would be able to overcome the hurdle last
above referred to, we would then desire to seek the receivership
aid prayed for in our Bill of Complaint. It seems doubtful that the
court will grant this relief. The Company could urge upon the court
many considerations against such drastic action. The Company could
probably avoid the receivership by offering to deposit the securi-
ties subject to the lien with a designated depository to await the
outcome of the suit. It seems logical to suppose that the court
would be disposed to accept some such plan as en alternative to
receivership. Once the validity of the lien is established the only
judicial act necessary to dispose of the case would be to decree
the sale of the property subject to the lien. The court might re-
fuse to appoint receivers for this limited purpose. By this course
Regraded Unclassified
78
of reasoning I meraly mean to suggest the difficulties in our path
and not to suggest that no reasons exist for the granting of a re-
ceivership. In 8 sale of property of this magnitude, and in view of
the fact that the Government is the complainant-lien holder, it would
seem essential to have a receivership in aid of sale.
This brings 0.8 to the question as to what our attitude should
be in reference to the 77B proceedings. If the bankruptcy petition
is approved all other matters (except the proceedings before the
Board of Tax Appeals) are automatically absorbed in the 77B proceed-
ing. We could, of course, hold our equity suit in abeyance pending
the outcome of those proceedings. If we pursued this course of
inaction, our position would not be materially altered upon the
approval of the petition. We would have no voice in the selection
of trustees. We could (through the Secretary of the Treasury) re-
ject any plan of reorganization which did not provide for the payment
of the Government's taxes in full; but we would have no voice in the
formation of a reorganization plan and, hence, would not be in a
position to insist that some provision be made for the thousands of
holders of Class A and common stock of the Company. If we should
intervene as a petitioning creditor, it is extremely doubtful that
the other creditors could question the Government's status as a
creditor; if we do not intervene, and the petition is approved, any
creditor and the trustees might attack the validity of the lien and
the Government's creditor status when we seek to prove the tax claim.
This might, conceivably, necessitate proving the tax claim before
the court instead of the Board of Tax Appeals and of proving the
validity of the jeopardy assessment.
The indications are that the court will soon reach a trial of
the issue of insolvency. We are now conducting a lengthy study of
the authorities on insolvency and methods of proving insolvency. We
have furnished the Treasury Department with a statement of approved
formulae. That Department is assimilating its data on the issue as
applicable to the several formulse. Mr. Harrill, who handled the
Mail Fraud Investigation for the Federal Bureau of Investigation
will be employed by Treasury to apply the factual data contained in
his report to the issue of insolvency. This work has been under way
for about one month and it will be at least another month before
we can reach a tentative answer to the question of insolvency. The
work is being conducted with two objectives in view: (a) First to
determine if the Company is solvent or insolvent; (b) in the second
place, if the Company is determined to be insolvent, to prepare the
evidence thereon for use in court, as though the Goverment were
Regraded Unclassified
79
going to prove insolvency without any aid whatscever from any other
litigant. In other words, if the Company appears to be insolvent
from our study, we are going to have the Government ready to malce out
its own independent case.
If our study shows the Company to be insolvent and our ability
to prove that fact, this raises & serious question of policy. Shall
the Government take active steps to secure the approval of the peti-
tion in the 77B proceedings? This positive action, if thought de-
sirable, may be taken in one of two ways: The Government can offer
proof and actively participate (a) as amicus curia and in the nature
of parens patriae; or, (b) as an intervening petitioning creditor.
The reasons in favor of active participation are three in number:
(1) To protect the present tax claim of the Government. If the tax,
as finally redetermined, should be between fifteen and thirty million
dollars, it is difficult to understand how such an amount can be
collected from an insolvent company without either disrupting the
System, injuring the Service, or further mulching the investing public.
A reorganization under Section 77B would seem to afford the only
alternative. (2) To protect the Government as to future taxes. The
System's tax matters are handled very largely by a personal company
of Howard C. Hopson. It is to Mr. Hopson's personal advantage to
have the tax affairs of the System in a confused state. If this
System can be restored to a solvent basis under capable and honest
management, the Government will stand to profit very materially
through prompt collections of true tax liabilities. (3) To afford
some measure of protection to security holders and the general invest-
ing public. In past years the Company has succeeded in placing in
the hands of the investing public vast amounts of more or less worth-
less securities. Much of this has been due to financial racketeering
on the part of the management.
It is B: very serious question as to what stage of the trial of
the issue of insolvency the Government should take positive action.
Naturally we would like to see as much as possible of the proof of
the petitioning creditors before deciding that question. However, if
the Government is going to proceed independently in the bankruptcy
proceedings such action should not be too long delayed.
Respectfully submitted.
trank g Wideway
FRANK J. WIDEMAN,
Special Assistant to the Attorney General.
Regraded Unclassified
80
May 5, 1936
The attached legal opinion from the General Counsel's
office was prepared in answer to the Secretary's question,
Could the Secretary of the Treasury resign from the Board
of Trustees of the American Red Cross?
Since the Secretary has decided, for the time being,
not to resign, this opinion is being filed for record pur-
poses.
Regraded Unclassified
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
81
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION
DATE May 1, 1936
TO
Mr. Taylor
file
FROM Mr. Opper, Acting General Counsel
Ph
You have requested my opinion as to whether the Secretary may,
if he so desires, resign from the Board of Trustees of the American
National Red Cross.
The American National Red Cross was reincorporated by Act of
January 5, 1905 (title 36, U.S.C., secs. 1-15). Section 5 of the Act pro-
vides for the governing body, namely, the central committee, consisting of
eighteen persons, and section 9 provides as follows:
"The endowment fund of the American National Red
Cross shall be kept and invested under the management
and control of a board of nine trustees, who shall be
elected from time to time by the incorporators and their
successors under such regulations regarding terms and
tenure of office, accountability, and expense as said
incorporators and successors shall prescribe."
It seems clear that the provisions of section 9 do not express
or imply a mandate from Congress that the Secretary of the Treasury must
serve as & trustee of the Red Cross.
The regulations promulgated pursuant to section 9 appear in 8.
pamphlet last printed in September, 1931 and containing the charter, by-
laws, and endowment fund regulations. Section 1(a) of the regulations pro-
vides as follows:
"The Board of nine Trustees of the Endowment
Fund required to be chosen by Section 8 of the Act
to Incorporate The American National Red Cross, as
82
- 2 -
amended by an Act of Congress, approved June 23,
1910, ought always to include the three public
officers of the United States who, by regular ap-
pointment and confirmation, are in discharge of
public duties as follows:
"1. The Secretary of the Treasury.
2. The Treasurer of the United States.
3. The officer of the United States Treasury
Department who may from time to time be designated
by the President of the United States as a member of
the Red Cross Central Committee in pursuance of the
last clause of Section 5 of the Act of Congress
approved January 5, 1905.
"The President of the Red Cross be and he is
hereby requested to notify the incumbents of the above-
named offices of their designation by the Board of
Incorporators of the American Red Cross to fill for
the terms of their incumbency of the United States of-
fices held by them respectively the three vacancies
that will exist in the Board of Trustees on January 1,
1913, and after the said date to give similar notice
as vacancies may occur among the United States officers
referred to." (Underscoring supplied.)
By section 6 of the By-laws:
"The President of the United States shall,
upon his acceptance, be ex-officio President of The
American National Red Cross."
It would appear that the Secretary, the Treasurer, and the
other Treasury Department official referred to are intended to be dis-
tinguished from the so-called "non-official members of the Board" which
are provided for in section 1(b). That section provides, inter alia,
that the terms of office of the six non-official members will be four
years and that any vacancy that shall occur among them will be filled
in a certain manner for the time to elapse before the next meeting of
Regraded Unclassified
83
- 3 -
the incorporators; and the three officials referred to above are
listed, in the Report of the Board of Trustees for the fiscal year
ended June 30, 1935, as "Ex Officio Members" (see page 161 of the Annual
Report of The American National Red Cross for the year ended June 30,
1935).
The regulations contain no provisions relating to the manner
of filling vacancies occurring among the three "official" members of
the Board for the obvious reason that the persons referred to (the
Secretary, the Treasurer, and the Treasury Department official serving
on the Central Committee) are at all times the incumbents of official
government positions and are, presumably, constantly available to fill
the three official memberships among the nine members of the Board.
I have no information as to whether any one who, by virtue of
his holding public office, has heretofore been designated by the Presi-
dent as a member of the Board of Trustees has ever declined to serve or
has resigned from the Board after accepting the designation. However,
the provisions of the regulations appear to be merely advisory - "The
Board of nine trustees ** ought always to include the three public
officers of the United States * If - and there would appear to be no
more than a definitely expressed desire of the incorporators that these
three officials serve as trustees and no more than a voluntary acceptance
of the "designation" by the officials mentioned, to serve without compen-
sation. In the absence of a statutory mandate, which is entirely lacking
in this case, there would appear to be no method whereby any person
Regraded Unclassified
84
- 4 -
could be legally required to fulfill the duties of a trustee or could
be legally prevented from voluntarily retiring from the Board at any
time (Briggs V. Spaulding, 141 U.S. 132; In Re Guanacevi Tunnel Co.,
201 Fed. 316; International Bank V. Faber, 86 Fed. 443; Fearing V. Glern,
73 Fed. 116). In the usual instance, the duties of such an official
are substantially similar to those of a director of a corporation and
the performance of such duties is a purely voluntary matter with the
individual in question, it being impossible as a practical matter to
require a person, against his voluntary wishes, to exercise judgment
and discretion in the fulfillment of duties and functions involved in
the handling of an organization's funds or in its business problems.
Accordingly, it is my opinion that the Secretary may, if and
when he so desires, resign from the Board of Trustees of the Red Cross.
Acting Claracel General Counsel. Gope
April , 1936.
Regraded Unclassified
85
May 5th, 1936.
My dear Senator:
Thank you very much for your Intter of May 1,
with which you transmitted copies of letters you had
written to Comptroller O'Connor and Jesse Jones
concerning Leo T. Crowley.
Sincerely,
(Signed) H. Morgenthau, Jr.
Secretary
Hon. Burton X. Wheeler,
United States Senste.
Regraded Unclassified
BURTON K. WHEELER, MONT., CHAIRMAN
ELLISON B. SMITH, s.c.
JAMES COVERNS, MICH,
SOBERT F. WASHER. N. Y.
JESSE H. METCALF, M. 1.
86
ALBEN w. BARKLEY, KY.
DANIEL a HASTINGS, DEL.
M. M. HEELY, W. VA.
WALLACE H. WHITE, JR., MAINE
WILLIAM H. DIETERICH, ILL
JAMES J. DAVIS, PA.
AUGUSTINE LONERGAN, CONN.
United States Senate
FRED H. BROWN, N. N.
HOMER T. scell, WASH.
VIC DONAMEY, 0000
COMMITTEE ON INTERSTATE COMMERCE
BHENMAN MINTON, IND.
A. HARRY MOORE, N. .
HARRY 8. TRUMAN, MO.
ELMER A. BENSON, MINN.
HENRIK SHIPSTEAD, MINN.
MAUDE w. MITCHELL, CLERK
Washington, D. C. May 1, 1936.
My dear Mr. Secretary:
For your information, I am enclosing herewith
copies of two letters which I am this day sending to the Hon. J. F. T.
O'Connor, Comptroller of the Currency, and Hon. Jesse Jones, Chairman of
the R. F. C.
Assuring you of my esteem, I am
BKW*M
Cordially yours,
Honorable Henry "orgenthau, Jr.
Secretary of the Treasury
enclosures (2)
Regraded
87
COPY
Regraded Unclassified
Washington, D. c. May 1, 1936.
My dear Jefty:
In res Leo T. Crowley
I was recently in St Paul speaking before a Democratic
Convention, as you perhaps know, and heard several very ugly rumors with
reference to the above named gentleman, to the effect that he was very
heavily involved in some banks at Madison and Wilwaukee, Wisconsin, and
also some other banks which were taken over by these National Banks.
If the rumors which I heard with reference to his being
involved to the extent of from 48 to 5 million dollars are true, it would
account for some of the things which have been going on in the Northwest
in permitting some of the banks to control his appointees.
I was informed that this was going to be brought out by
the republican organization in the Northwest, and that this money had been
made up to the banks by loans from the à F c.
If my informant gives me the correct information with refer-
ence to this, it seems as if it was & scandal which would equal the Teapot
Dome.
I am taking the liberty of writing to you with reference to
this matter, and to ask whether or not you have any information on this sub-
ject. I understand that you approved the appointment of Mr. Crowley in the
first instance, and I can hardly believe that you would recommend a man for
this position if the facts which have been given to me are correct.
I would kindly ask you to give no & report on the matter. If
you feel you cannot do 80 without a resolution, I will introduce a resolution
in the Senate calling upon you for any information you may have upon the suby
ject.
With kindest personal regards, I an
BKW*M
Sincerely yours,
Hon. J. 1. 1. O'Connor,
Comptroller of the Currency
Treasury Department
88
COPY
Regraded Unclassified
Washington, D. C= May 1, 1936.
My dear Chairmant
When 1 was in St Paul recently, & report case to as
to the effect that Mr. weo T. Crowley was involved in two banks in Wiscon-
sin, one at Madison and the other at Milwaukee, and also in some other banks,
which these two banks consolidated with.
It was also reported to se that the extent of his being
involved in these banks was around five million dollars, that the loans made
by the banks to him were upon extremely questionable paper, that in fact they
were upon stocks which had not been authorised by the Company, or Secretary
of State of Wisconsin.
I was also informed that because of these losses, the banks
were forced to borrow from the R.F.C., and that your organisation was thorough-
ly familiar with the situation, but that notwithstanding that fact you were one
of those who recommended Mr. Crowley for his present position.
It is inconceivable to no, that if the facts as given to ae
areccorrect that you would have recommended him in the first instance. In
view of the fact that statements were made to me that you were thoroughly fami-
liar with these facts, I would ask you, whether or not, you have in your files
any records, or any information, concerning the above matter.
If for any reason you feel you cannot furnish this informa-
tion to ne upon a sere request, I will introduce a resolution in the Senate,
asking that the same be furnished to that body.
#1th kindest personal regards, 1 an
BKW*M
Sincerely yours,
Honorable Jesse Jones, Chairman
Reconstruction Finance Corporation
DELICE
COPY
89
Washington, D. C. May 1, 1936.
My dear Jefty:
In re: Leo T. Crowley
I was recently in St. Paul speaking before a Democratic
Convention, as you perhaps know, and heard several very ugly rumors
with reference to the above named gentleman, to the effect that he
was very heavly involved in some banks at Madison and Milwaukee,
Wisconsin, and also some other banks which were taken over by
these National Banks.
If the rumors which I heard with reference to his being
involved to the extent of from 4½ to 5 million dollars are true,
it would account for some of the things which have been going on
in the Northwest in permitting some of the banks to control his
appointees.
I was informed that this was going to be brought out by
the republican organization in the Nothwest, and that this money
had been made up to the banks by loans from the R F C.
If my informant gives me the correct information with
reference to this, it seems as if it was a scandal which would
equal the Teapot Dome.
I am taking the liberty of writing to you with reference
to this matter, and to sk whether or not you have any information
on this subject. I understand that you approved the appointment
of Mr. Crowley in the first instance, and I can hardly believe
that you would recommend a man for this position if the facts
which have been given to me are correct.
I would kindly ask you to give me a report on the matter.
If you feel you cannot do so without a resolution, I will introduce
in the Senate calling upon you for any information you may have
upon the subject.
With kindest personal regards, I am
Sincerely yours,
BKW*M
(Signed) Burton K. Wheeler
Hon. J. F. T. O'Connor,
Comptroller of the Currency
Treasury Department
90
COPY
Washington, D. C., May 1, 1936
My dear Chairman:
When I was in St. Paul recently, a report came to me to
the effect that Mr. Leo T. Crowley was involved in two banks
in Wisconsin, one at Madison and the other at Milwaukee, and
also in some other banks, which these two banks consolidated
with.
It was also reported to me that the extent of his being
involved in these banks was around five million dollars, that
the loans made by the banks to him were upon extremely question-
able paper, that in fact they were upon stocks which had not
been authorized by the Company, or Secretary of State of Wis-
consin.
I was also informed that because of these losses, the
banks were forced to borrow from the R.F.C., and that your
organization was thoroughly familiar with the situation, but
that notwithstanding that fact you were one of those who recom-
mended Mr. Crowley for his present position.
It is inconceivable to me, that if the facts as given to
me are correct that you would have recommended him in the first
instance. In view of the fact that statements were made to me
that you were thoroughly familiar with these facts, I would ask
you, whether or not, you have in your files any records, or any
information, concerning the above aff matter.
If for any reason you feel you cannot furnish this informa-
tion to me upon a mere request, I will introduce a resolution
in the Senate, asking that the same be furnished to that body.
With kindest personal regards, I am
Sincerely yours
(sgd) Burton K. Wheeler,
Honorable Jesse Jones, Chairman
Reconstruction Finance Corporation
THE secretary OF THE TREASURY
WASHINGTON
May 5th, 1936.
Dear Jefty:
On March 22nd, 1935, I wrote you the following note:
"Confirming my telephone conversation of today,
I am waiting for your report on Mr. Crowley so that
I can close out this matter.
"I think that the charges that you originated
against Mr. Crowley should be substantiated or with-
drawn."
I have not received an acknowledgment or further
comment from you on this matter. In view of Senator
Wheeler's a copy, I think this you matter should now be disposed of without
letter to of May 1, 1936, of which he sent me
any further delay on your part
Sincerely, Herry
Secretary
Hon. J. F.T. O'Connor,
Comptroller of the Currency
Regraded Unclassifie
92
COMPTROLLER OF THE CURRENCY
WASHINGTON
May 5, 1936
My dear Mr. Secretary:
Thanks for your memorandum of May 5th in reference
to Mr. Leo T. Crowley in your letter to me on March 22,
1935. You say that you have received no acknowledgment
or further communication from me on this matter.
In this you are in error as I told you that I had
received a full and complete report made by one of the
Examiners of this office on the activities of Mr. Crowley
in Wisconsin. I further advised you that I had also told
Mr. Crowley that I had this complete report and Mr. Crowley
told me that he hoped that I would not present this report
to you as it would ruin him and that he desired to resign
his office as Chairman of the Federal Deposit Insurance
Corporation immediately upon the signing of the Banking
Bill of 1935. I suggested to you that in as much as Mr.
Crowley was going to resign I could see no need of opening
this report and causing him any embarrassment. You felt
that this was the proper position to take and since that
time the matter has rested.
I attach herewith 8. memorandum handed to Under
Secretary T. J. Coolidge under date of May 4, 1936, together
with statements of loans in various banks by Mr. Crowley.
Very cordially yours,
J. Jefur F. T. CONNOR
Comptroller
Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.
Secretary of the Treasury
Washington, D. C.
93
May 4, 1936
MEMORANDUM:
With reference to the attached copy of letter and excerpts
taken from reports of examinations of the First Wisconsin National
Bank of Milwaukee dated April 6, 1934 and of the First National Bank
of Madison, Wisconsin, dated April 27, 1934, it will be noted at the
time of the examination the First Wisconsin National Bank of Milwaukee
held obligations of Mr. Leo T. Crowley and his interests amounting to
$400,295.58. Similar obligations held by the First National Bank of
Madison amounted to $606,501.71.
The plans for recapitalizing the banks have been completed.
Most of the loans referred to in the schedule held by the First Wis--
consin National Bank were charged off. The bank still carries,
according to the last report, the personal loan of Mr. Crowley in the
amount of $8,795 and charged off $157,000 of the amount previously
quoted. The only other loan carried by the above named bank is the
balance of the indebtedness of the General Paper and Supply Company
and the Crowley Wholesale Grocery Company amounting to $57,781.
The bank referred to above reduced its common capital by
$5,000,000 for the purpose of assisting in the elimination of losses
and increased its capital by selling $10,000,000 preferred stock to
the RFC.
The loansheld by the First National Bank of Madison, amount-
ing to $606,501 have been entirely eliminated. These loans were
acquired from the State Bank of Wisconsin at the time it was taken
over and its liabilities assumed by the national bank, the national
bank being guaranteed against loss by the Wisconsin Bankshares Cor-
poration, which Corporation brrowed approximately $4,500,000 from the
RFC. On February 6, 1935 the Corporation transferred to the undivided
profits of the subject bank $996,847.91 in the final settlement of its
guaranty in connection with the State Bank of Wisconsin assets. The
items charged out were included and transferred to the Wisconsin
Bankshares by way of an asset dividend to stockholders. The capital
structure of the First National Bank of Madison was also strengthened
by sale of $500,000 preferred stock to the RFC.
COPY
94
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
COMPTROLLER OF THE CURRENCY
WASHINGTON
ADDRESS REPLY TO
"COMPTROLLER OF THE CURRENCY"
December 6, 1934.
My dear Mr. Secretary:
In response to your letter of yesterday advising me that the
Secretary had called you on the telephone and is anxious to have in
writing a memorandum outlining the facts in regard to Mr. Crowley, I am
transmitting the following:
On or about February 5, 1934, Senator Vandenberg of Michigan
called me on the telephone and said that he had information which led
him to believe that he should vote against the confirmation of Mr. Leo
T. Crowley as Chairman of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. The
Senator then sent & letter by messenger making specific requests for in-
formation, and in this letter, Senator Vandenberg said that he had had
the confirmation of Mr. Crowley temporarily held up pending the receipt
of certain information. On February 6, 1934, Senator Vandenberg sent a
second letter requesting additional information. Copies of both letters
from the Senator are attached to this memorandum.
I talked to Mr. Crowley about this matter and replied to Senator
Vandenberg under date of February 7, 1934, copy of which is also attached.
At the time I dictated the letter of February 7th, Mr. Crowley was at my
desk and assisted me in compiling the information which I gave to the
Senator. In order to secure up-to-date information, it was necessary to
have an examiner make an investigation in Wisconsin, and at the suggestion
of Mr. Crowley, I selected Mr. R.L. Hopkins who was a member of the
national bank examining force, but at that time had been loaned to the
Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation. Mr. Hopkins made a report to me,
copy of which is attached. This report was transmitted to Senator Vanden-
berg and copy of my letter of transmittal is also attached hereto and copy
of Senator Vandenberg's acknowledgement of the same.
A newspaper man recently advised me that Senator LaFollette was
in the city a few days ago and had made the statement to a number of people
that he would have a resolution introduced in the Senate investigating Mr.
Crowley and the facts surrounding his appointment. My first information
that Mr. Crowley was being considered for the Chairmanship of the Federal
Deposit Insurance Corporation was from the press after the President had
sent his name to the Senate. I felt it my duty, in view of the endorsement
of the President and the Secretary of the Treasury, to do everything I could
in an honorable way to have his appointment confirmed and Mr. Crowley ap-
preciated very much what I did and the embarrassment that I saved him before
the committee and also the final statement of Senator Vandenberg to me over
the telephone that if I would 30 express myself, he would withdraw his
objections to the nomination. You will note in Senator Vandenberg's letter
of February 15, the following paragraph:
Regraded Unclassified
95
+
"On the basis of these communications, Mr. Crowley's
nomination was confirmed last night. I hope he will fully justify
the confidence which we all are reposing in him. I feel sure he
will make every effort."
When my attention was called to Senator LaFollette's
position, I made a further examination of my records as well as
the last examination of the bank, which I had not done before
this incident and it would appear that the Hopkins report is
misleading in the following particulars:
His report shows Mr. Crowley owed the First Wisconsin
National Bank of Milwaukee $160,295.58, whereas the National Bank
Examiner's report of April 6, 1934, shows that Mr. Crowley owes
the bank $274,295.58.
Mr. Hopkins' report states that on December 31, 1933, the
net proprietory interest in the General Paper and Supply Company
(largely owned by Mr. Crowley) is $435,635, with current assets
of $491,259 and current liabilities of $36,632; that included in
the current assets, however, is an excessive amount of receivables
which should be substantially discounted, but on the other hand, the
company owns the entire stock of the Goodall Crowley Oil Company,
which shows a net worth of $148,060, with current assets of $192,632
and current liabilities of $5,962. This appears to be somewhat at
variance with the National Bank Examiner's report which shows the
General Paper Supply Company and the Goodall Crowley 011 Company
owed the First Wisconsin National Bank $124,500, the Examiner stating
that of the receivables of the General Paper and Supply Company,
$334,000 was due largely from the Crowleys and that the receivables
of the Goodall Crowley 011 Company, $134,000, are practically all
due from the Crowleys.
Mr. Hopkins' report states that Mr. Crowley and his brothers
have full operating control of the corporations and he has been advised
are making satisfactory progress in operating such corporations.
The Bank Examiner states Mr. Crowley is too badly extended
to give any protection to his indebtedness as maker; that $5,500
represents delinquent interest due; that his collateral consists
of stock in a closed Madison bank and 438 shares of General Paper
Supply Company and Crowleys' Wholesale Grocery Company, which is
worthless. The Examiner states the indebtedness of Mr. Leo T.
Crowley originally represented a reorganisation of the Crowley
debts on a four-year plan that was unsuccessful and that the
obligations were rearranged in March, 1933, to be payable five
years later, with interest at 2% per annum.
The Wisconsin Bancshares Corporation has secured B. loan
from the Reconstruction Finance Corporation in the amount of
$4,000,000, which it is understood is to assist in taking care
of these losses.
Regraded Inclassified
96
-3-
Attached hereto are copies of schedules taken from reports
of examination, one from the First National Bank of Madison, Wisconsin,
report dated April 27, 1934 and one from the First Wisconsin National
Bank, Milwaukee, Wisconsin, dated April 6, 1934. These were the last
examinations of these banks made by the Comptroller's Office. However,
in the regular course they will be examined again shortly.
Cordially yours,
J.F.T. O'CONNOR,
Comptroller.
Honorable T. J. Coolidge
Under Secretary of the Treasury.
Regraded
Report of examination of the First Wisconsin National Bank, Milwaukee,
97
Wisconsin, dated April 6, 1934.
LOANS AND DISCOUNTS:
Slow
Doubtful
Loss
$108,500.00
Leo T. Crowley
$40,000.00
$8,000.00
$60,500.00
A.W. Schulkamp
Collateral is a contract dated June 28,
1932 of Young & Co. sold to Wm. H. Hatton
by Crowley as Trustee. Original amount
90M has been paid down to 48M. It is
claimed by Hatton contract has been
paid down to 40M. The lumber, which
originally was the basis of the contract,
was moved into Hatton's own yards and the
greater portion sold or absorbed in the
inventory of Hatton & Co. so that it cannot
be identified. No supporting data for Wm.
H. Hatton signature, but claimed responsible
for balance of contract.
$1,500.00 Ind.
8,795.58
25,000.00
132,000.00
165,795.58
Leo. T. Crowley
Badly involved with heavy other
bank obligations. Slow portion protected by
share in substandard listed and unlisted
stocks held for the benefit of this bank
and the 1st Nat. Bank of Madison. No
evidence of ability to pay. Obligation
dated 1933 maturing 1938 @ 2% interest.
124,500.00
60,000.00
64,500.00
General Paper Sply.
and Crowley Wholesale
Grocery Company. Coll. stock
Goodall-Crowley Co. has no val.
This stock is held pro rata with
claim of 156,000. held by State Bank
of Wis. Quick assets of 166,700.00
against current debts of 50.7M. Debt
to subject bank and obligation to State
Bank of Madison in amount of 156,000.
deferred to 1937. Included in assets
are 105,600. entire stock of Goodall-
Crowley which is believed worthless and
323,700. due from officers. Sales last
year 408,000. with net profits of 2,000.
Fixed assets carried at 130M with enc. of
10,000.
This bank has plans approved for reducing its common capital
from $10,000,000 to $5,000,000, using the released capital and part of its sur-
plus funds to charge off losses; and increase its capital by selling $10,000,000
preferred stock to the R.F.C.
Regraded Unclassifie
Report of Examination of the First National Bank of Madison, Wisconsin,
98
dated April 27, 1934.
LOANS AND DISCOUNTS
Slow
Doubtful
Loss
350,476.38
$20,000.00
$35,000.00
$295,476.38
Leo. T. Crowley
Based on participation
sundry stocks together with
guaranty of unknown value
at this time.
156,025.33
89,000.00
67,025.33
General Paper & Supply Co.
Collateral of no credit
value. Statement would
suggest liquidation possible
as shown.
100,000.00
50,000.00
10,000.00
40,000.00
Goodall-Crowley Oil Co.
Statement poor. Payments
should develop per schedule
of maturity, Liquidation as
classified a suggested
possibility.
The Holding Company affiliate of this bank has a plan approved
whereby it will borrow $4,000,000 from the R.F.C. About $1,000,000 of this
amount is to be used to eliminate unsatisfactory assets in the bank. The
bank itself is selling $500,000 of preferred stock to the R.F.C.
Regraded Unclassified
99
May 5, 1936
I just called McIntyre about the O'Connor-Crowley fight
and McIntyre said he was Just calling me; that he was very
much worried about 1t; that O'Connor had been over to see
him and O'Connor seems worried. I read McIntyre my letter
to O'Connor which I sent in to O'Connor this morning. It
was news to McIntyre.
I told McIntyre that Vandenburg knows all about this.
He said, "I know he does, and he said "Both O'Connor and
Crowley have got to explain some of the things that they have
done." He then asked me to come to, I gathered, & confiden-
tial meetings at 2:30 on Housing and wanted me to stay behind
after the meeting and talk to the President about O'Connor and
Crowley.
Regraded Unclassifie
100
At 5 P.M. on May 5, 1936, the Secretary called Comptroller
O'Connor and Mr. McReynolds in his office to discuss the record as to
what had happened with respect to certain charges made against
Chairman Leo T. Crowley, of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation.
The Secretary called the Comptroller's attention to his (the Secretary's)
letter of May 5, 1936, to the Comptroller, which recited the fact
that the Secretary's letter on the same subject addressed to the
Comptroller on March 22, 1935, had not been acknowledged or commented upon
since its receipt by the Comptroller, and to the following statement in
Mr. O'Conmor's reply of May 5th as follows:
"In this you are in error as I told you that I had
received a full and complete report made by one of the
examiners of this office on the activities of
Mr. Crowley in Wisconsin. I further advised you that
I had also told Mr. Crowley that I had this complete
report and Mr. Crowley told me that he hoped that I
would not present this report to you as it would ruin
him and that he desired to resign his office as Chairman
of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation immediately
upon the signing of the Banking Bill of 1935. I suggested
to you that in as much as Mr. Crowley was going to resign
I could see no need of opening this report and causing
him any embarrassment. You felt that this was the proper
position to take and since that time the matter has rested."
Regraded Unclassified
101
- 2 -
The Secretary explained to Mr. O'Connor that his records
indicate that it is Mr. O'Connor who is in error. He exhibited to
Mr. O'Connor his diary entry of March 12, 1935, which indicates very
clearly that Mr. O'Connor's conversation with the Secretary referred
to in his (O'Connor's) letter of today actually took place on March 12,
1935. The Secretary also called Mr. O'Connor's attention to the fact
that on March 21, 1935, after staff meeting, the Comptroller remained
to speak to the Secretary alone and at that time stated that he had
received a voluminous report on the Crowley matter and had placed the
report in the lower drawer of his desk unopened; that after reflecting
on the matter he (the Secretary) came to the conclusion that he was
unwilling to assume any share of the responsibility for delaying
final disposition of the charges against Mr. Crowley and undertook to
discuss the matter further with Comptroller O'Connor the next day
March 22, 1935; that he discovered Mr. O'Connor was not in his office
and finally located him by telephone in the Federal Reserve Board
offices and undertook over the telephone to make clear to Mr. O'Connor
that he, Secretary Morgenthau, considered that final disposition of
the Crowley casw rested on the receipt of a report from Comptroller
O'Connor substantiating the charges and that the matter should be
closed up promptly one way or the other; and that after concluding
the telephone conversation, for fear Comptroller O'Connor did not
clearly understand his attitude, he had written the Comptroller his
letter of March 22, 1935, stating his position as follows:
Regraded Unclassified
102
- 3 -
"Confirming my telephone conversation of to-
day, I am waiting for your report on Mr. Crowley
so that I can close out this matter.
"I think that the charges that you originated
against Mr. Crowley should be substantiated or
withdrawn."
Mr. O'Connor stated that he had no documentary evidence to
substantiate his recollection as to discussions with the Secretary
on this subject subsequent to March 22, and that he would not further
challenge the Secretary's recital of what had transpired, but that
he relied upon the Secretary's conversation with him on the same day
as justification for assuming that he, the Comptroller, was to do
nothing further in the case until after the Secretary's return to
Washington a week later. The record of this telephone conversation
is attached. The last and significant part of it is as follows:
"H.M. Jr: - and you came to Coolidge and then Coolidge made these
analyses -
O'C:
That's Right.
H.M. Jr: -and then you said you weren's satisfied -
O'C:
That's right.
H.M. Jr: -and you said you'd make additional investigations -
O'C:
That's right.
H.M. Jr: Now -
O'C:
It's all correct.
H.M. Jr:
My position is I'm waiting for you to either clear the
Regraded Unclassified
- 4 -
103
man or to bring charges.
O'C:
Well, if - if - 1f - - if the thing - if the thing - if
he should fade out, do you think it's necessary to
injure anybody?
H.M. Jr: Well, I've just simply got to take the position that I'm
waiting for a report from you.
O'C:
Well, that's alright, then. If you'll do that until you
get back I'll sit down and talk with you about it.
H.M.Jr: All right.
O'C:
All right."
The Secretary pointed out the fact that his letter to the
Comptroller dated March 22, 1935, was written subsequently to and in
confirmation of his understanding of the telephone conversation in
question, and that the letter must be accepted as a clear statement
of his position, and that on that basis the responsibility for delaying
disposition of the charges against Mr. Crowley rested solely with the
Comptroller.
The Secretary stated that he felt the Comptroller had improperly
and without justification misrepresented to Assistant Secretary Gibbons,
Chairman Jesse Jones of the R F C, and Marvin McIntyre and conceivably
to others that the withholding of final disposition of the Growley case
was due to the Secretary's disinclination to press the matter, and in
that connection had called attention of at least one gentleman named
to the fact that Mr. Crowley had employed the Secretary's nephew in his
organization at liberal compensation. The Secretary stated that he
felt Mr. O'Connor had undertaken to defend his own actions in this
matter at Mr. Morgenthau's expense. The Comptroller vehemently disclaimed
Regraded Unclassified
104
- 5 -
any derogatory statements concerning the Secretary to anyone at any
time and stated that he had and would continue to defend and praise
the Secretary's official acts and conduct at all times and under all
circumstances. The Secretary stated that he did not consider that
Mr. O'Connor's actions in this case justified such a statement on his
part. The Secretary told Mr. O'Connor that he was not looking for
advice from anyone as to what action should be taken in this or any
similar case; that what he had originally asked for and was still
seeking was substantiation of the charges made against Mr. Crowley
and if substantial proof were offered of improper actions indicating
unfitness to hold the responsible position now occupied by Mr. Crowley,
he would insist on Mr. Crowley vacating that position, but if on the
other hand no such substantial evidence were forthdoming, he felt
the matter should be disposed of and the cloud lifted from Mr. Crowley.
The Secretary stated that Chairman Jesse Jones had requested
a hearing with the President on this matter and that the President had
fixed 11 o'clock tomorrow, May 6th, to discuss the matter with
Mr. Jones, Mr. McIntyre and Mr. Morgenthau, and had requested that
Mr. O'Connor be present at that conference and produce the report
concerning Mr. Crowley, which the Comptroller had stated he still holds
unopened in his desk. Mr. O'Connor promised to be present at that
conference/
Regraded Unclassified
105
L
March 22, 1935.
Dear Jefty:
Confirming my telephone con-
versation of to-day, I am waiting for
your report on Mr. Crowley so that I
can close out this matter.
I think that the charges that
you originated against Mr. Crowley should
be substantiated or withdrawn.
Sincerely,
Mr. J. F. T. O'Connor,
Comptroller of the Currency,
Washington, D. C.
Regraded Unclassified
March 22, 1935.
106
Friday.
H.M.Jr:
Hello.
O'Connor:
Hello.
H.M.Jr:
Jefty?
O'C:
Yes, sir.
H.M.Jr:
Henry Morgenthau.
O'C:
Oh yes, how are you?
H.M.Jr:
Are you in the hotel?
O'C:
No, I'm over here in the Federal Reserve Board.
H.M.Jr:
Oh.
O'C:
We're having - we started a meeting about 2:30
and we're still in it.
H.M.Jr:
oh. I wanted to talk to you about the Crowley
matter.
O'C:
oh yes. Anything happened recently?
H.M.Jr:
No, I've been talking it over. I - I've got
Oliphant and Jefty here, Oliphant and Jeff
Coolidge in my room and we've been going over
things and I'm going away tomorrow night.
0'C:
Yes. Going to be away long?
H.M.Jr:
No, for a week.
0'0:
Oh yes.
H.M.Jr:
- and I - I simply feel that this whole matter
is resting on receiving the report from you.
0'0:
That's right.
H.M.Jr:
- and I - I think we ought to close up the matter
one way or the other.
O'C:
Well - of course, the only danger of holding it
is if somebody up there, like our friend from
Louisiana or somebody should - if come busy
fellows out there should get busy and get him to
shoot off and make it embarrassing here. Now,
Regraded Unclassified
- 2 -
107
that's the only chance we're taking, but I'm -
I'm sure - my best judgment is not to open this
thing until you get back. That'd be my best
judgment, then let's sit down with it, Henry.
H.M.Jr: Well, I haven't opened it. I feel that - you
see you started -
O'C:
I know, I know and I'll - I'll open it and go
through, but I - I -
H.M.Jr: - and I feel that the responsibility is yours.
0'0:
That's right.
H.M.Jr: - and - I mean it so happened that I was down at
Sea Island Beach -
O'C:
That's right.
H.M.Jr: - and you came to Coolidge and then Coolidge made
these analyses -
O'C:
That's right.
H.M.Jr: - and then you said you weren't satisfied -
O'C:
That's right.
H.M.Jr: - and you said you'd make additional investi-
gations -
O'C:
That's right.
H.M.Jr:
Now -
O'C:
It's all correct.
H.M.Jr:
My position 1s I'm waiting for you to either clear
the/man or to bring charges
O'C:
Well, if - if - if - if the thing - if the thing -
if he should fade out, do you think it's necessary
to injure anybody?
H.M.Jr:
Well, I've just simply got to take the position
that I'm waiting for a report from you.
O'C:
Well, that's all right, then. If you'll do that
until you get back I'll sit down and talk to you
about it.
H
All right.
O'C'
All right.
Regraded Unclassified
request
108
May 6th, 1936.
Dear Jefty:
I have received your letter of May 5th, 1936, in response to
mine of the como date concerning the disposition of certain charges
made against Chairman Leo T. Crowley of the Federal Deposit
Insurance Corporation more than a year ago, in which you state I am
in error in my statement that I have received no acknowledgment of
my letter of March 22nd, 1935, nor any comments from you on the
matter since that date.
I call your attention to the fact that according to my diary.
in which I preserve 8 daily record of my official acts, the
conversation, to which you refer in your letter to me, took place on
March 12, 1935; that you reported to me after staff meeting on
March 21, 1935, that you had received a voluminous report on the
Crowley matter and that you had placed It unopened in the bottom
drawer of your desk; that I called you on the telephone the next
day, March 22, 1935, and told you that I felt the Crowley charges
should be disposed of promptly one way or another, and that I was
waiting for a report from you substantiating the charges which
you had undertaken to investigate further after & previous report on
the matter had been analysed by Jeff Coolidge: and that after I had
concluded my conversation with you on the telephone, in order to
males doubly sure that I had made myself entirely clear, I wrote you
the letter of March 22, 1935, stating that I was waiting for your
report on Mr. Crowley 80 that I could close the matter up, since I
felt the charges should be substantisted or withdrawn.
In view of the clearness of my records of this matter. I an
convinced that your recollection 10 at fault.
Sincerely,
Syd Secretary /
Hon. J. F. T. 0'Connor.
Comptroller of the Currency.
Regraded
may 6. 109
Dear Henry,
As I told you yesterday, there are rumors and statements that have
come to the White House to the effect that certain individuals who had dealings
in the Banking affairs of Mr. Crowley were later employed by Mr. Crowley, and
I believe this should also be straightened out while the present investigation
is on. If it should appear that any of the following individuals ever received
any compensation from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation,
Tom Reese
Fred C. Kellogg
R. L. Hopkins
C. L. Pitman
Herman L. Ekern
Attorney Dempsey
the amounts of such compensation should be ascertained, as well as the date of
appointment, if any have been appointed by the Corporation, also a statement as
to whether or not any of these individuals were formerly employed by Mr. Crowley
in Wisconsin in connection with any of his loans, banking activities, making
reports or audits for him, or associated with him in any of his enterprises or
banks - also if he dealt with any of them in any official capacity in Wisconsin.
Regraded Unclassified
Dear Henry,
As I told you yesterday, there are rumors and statements that have
come to the White House to the effect that certain individuals who had dealings
in the Banking affairs of Mr. Crowley were later employed by Mr. Crowley, and
I believe this should also be straightened out while the present investigation
is on. If it should appear that any of the following individuals ever received
any compensation from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation,
Tom Reese
Fred C. Kellogg
R. L. Hopkins
C. L. Pitman
Herman L. Exern
Attorney Dempsey
the amounts of such compensation should be ascertained, as well as the date of
appointment, if any have been appointed by the Corporation, also a statement as
to whether or not any of these individuals were formerly employed by Mr. Crowley
in Wisconsin in connection with any of his loans, banking activities, making
reports or audits for him, or associated with him in any of his enterprises or
banks - also if he dealt with any of them in any official capacity in Wisconsin.
Regraded Unclassifie
Dear Henry.
As I told you yesterday, there are rumors and statements that have
come to the White House to the effect that certain individuals who had dealings
in the Banking affairs of Mr. Crowley were later employed by Mr. Crowley, and
I believe this should also be straightened out while the present investigation
is on. If it should appear that any of the following individuals ever received
any compensation from the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation,
Tom Reese
Fred C. Kellogg
R. L. Hopkins
C. L. Pitman
Herman L. Exern
Attorney Dempsey
the amounts of such compensation should be ascertained, as well as the date of
appointment, if any have been appointed by the Corporation, also a statement as
to whether or not any of these individuals were formerly employed by Mr. Crowley
in Wisconsin in connection with any of his loans, banking activities, making
reports or audits for him, or associated with him in any of his enterprises or
banks - also if he dealt with any of them in any official capacity in Wisconsin.
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
112
INTER OFFICE COMMUNICATION
DATE May 6, 1936.
TO
Secretary Morgenthau
FROM
Mr. Taylor
Subject: Points in the memoranda submitted by the Chinese representatives
to which the Secretary's attention is particularly called.
I
"Memorandum on increasing the use of silver"
1. In the second paragraph of Section IV, Page 4, with reference
to the minting of the new silver coins in China, there is no indica-
tion of the length of time that will be required to prepare the Central
Mint for the task of minting sizeable amounts of the new silver coins.
The history of the operation of the Central Mint is one which
may justly raise some doubts whether the necessary alterations will be
completed quickly.
It would create a favorable impression here, and would at the
same time avoid uncertainty as to the time of issue of the new silver
coins if the Chinese Government were to have the new coins minted here
until such time as their own mint was ready to take over the operations.
There would be a double advantage to the Chinese Government in that ar-
rangement: (1) they would expedite the appearance of the new coins and
increase their excess reserves; (2) there would be B. small saving - if
a credit is to be extended requiring silver as collateral - because
the silver received in form of old yuans would have to be refined here
at their expense. If the old coins were to be minted into new ones,
the expense of conversion would be less, and if the silver sent here
as collateral was eventually to be withdrawn, the difference in cost
of refining old yuans into bars and into coins would be saved.
2. Of the 200 mill. yuan coins mentioned on Page 4 as the amount
the Chinese Government hopes to issue, it is to be noted that 130,000
of such coins are to replace an equivalent amount of yuan paper notes
now outstanding (as mentioned on Page 5).
(a) Insofar B.S new coins were issued in place of paper notes,
the cash reserve back of the notes would be freed, and
could serve as a basis for new note issues. For every
100 yuans of notos replaced by silver coins, enough
silver would be saved to serve as backing for 25 yuans
more of note issue.
113
Secretary Morgenthau - 5/6/36, 2.
(b) The statement on Page 4 that China imported, from 1922 to
1931, 750,000 ounces of silver is not to be regarded as 8.
basis for a preliminary estimate of the amount of silver
coins China may be expected to absorb as money in the
future. The situation was different in those years. China
WAG then on the silver standard and the silver kept by
people was either in the form of full weight coins, "shoes",
or silver bullion and not subsidiary coinage. It is not to
be expected that the Chinese public will hoard or accept
subsidiary coins as freely B.B either full weight coins or
silver bullion. Moreover, the whole of China in the years
1922 to 1931 is not to be regarded as identical with the
area over which the Nanking Government can now enforce
circulation of its new coins.
(c) It is to be noted that the 130 million yuans referred to in
the top paragraph on Page V is not to be added to the esti-
mate of 200 million already made on Page 4. According to
Mr. Chen, the 200 million includes the coins which are to
replace the paper yuans now outstanding.
II
"Memorandum on the question of the independence of
Chinese currency."
The explanation offered in this memorandum of the alterations in
dollar does not necessarily justify the original step of altering the
dollar and keeping sterling fixed when the London-New York cross-rate
went up above $5.00. However, the statement made at the end of Page 6
that China will make another declaration, reiterating her policy of not
fixing the yuan to either sterling or the dollar, may be satisfactory.
Better evidence that China intends to pursue that policy would be
supplied by 8. change in the sterling-yuan (official) rate. Mr. Lochhead
reports that on May 4th the sterling-yuan rate was altered one-sixteenth
while the dollar rate was kept the same; and on the next day both rates
were changed slightly. Mr. Chen is going to cable his Government for
confirmation of those reported rates.
III
"Memorandum on increasing the liquidity of the cash re-
serves against note issue of the Chinese Government banks."
1. It is understood that any shipments of silver to the United
States will be on American bottoms, under the same conditions as were
made for the carlier purchases of silver from China.
Regraded Unclassified
114
Secretary Morgenthau - 5/0/36, S.
2. If (?) million ounces of silver are to be purchased, the ar-
rangement might include the following conditions:
(a) Purchases to be made at the rate of (?) million ounces a
month for the balance of the year, with the understanding
that the agreement is cancellable by either Government on
the 15th day of any month, cancellation to apply to pur-
chases after the end of the month.
The monthly amounts are not to be cumulative. If the
Chinese Government should contract to sell less than (7)
million ounces any month, the difference shall not be added
to the purchases to be made in subsequent months. The sale
is to be understood as completed during the month in which
the silver is placed on board ship at Shanghai.
(b) The price to be paid for the silver is to be the price
offered by the Treasury on the 15th day of each month, the
Chinese Government being free to sell or not, as it deems
fit, at the price quoted.
3. If credit is to be offered to the Chinese, it is suggested
that the conditions be as follows:
(a) The privilege of a credit to remain during the remainder
of this year. If the Chinese wish, they may, a month and
a half before expiration, renew negotiations for considera-
tion of an extension.
(b) The interest rate is to be 2 per cent.
The justification of this low rate of interest is:
(1') It constitutes a. reward for Chinese endeavor to
co-operate in the expansion of the use of silver.
(2') It provides an incentive for other countries to
do likewise if they wish to obtain such accom-
modation.
(3') It provides an adequate return in view of the
complete absence of risk involved in the loan.
(4+) The U. S. Government pays out less than that for
its short-term money, and the transaction is to
be regarded in the nature of international monetary
co-operation rather than an extension of a com-
mercial loan.
(o) The loan is to be made not against the silver, but against
yuan exchange. The silver is to be sent to the United
States as further collateral against the loan to the value
of 100 per cent of the credit taken up. The silver so sent
is to be valued at 40 cents an ounce. This amounts to
collateral of 250 por cent when silver is 45 oents an ounce
and yuan exchange 30 cents.
Regraded Unclassified
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
115
OF NEW YORK
OFFICE CORRESPONDENCE
DATE May e, 1936.
CONFIDENTIAL FILES
SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION
L. W. Knoke
WITH BANK OF ENGLAND.
PROM
I called Mr. Bolton at 10:35 today and reverted to our con-
versation of yesterday. I told him that, as I had already suggested
yesterday, our friends would not feel justified to pay a price for
gold abroad which, with shipping charges added, would bring the cost
of delivery in New York to above $35 per ounce. I continued that there
were several other considerations which made it seem inadvisable to
act on his suggestion of yesterday. For us to pay $34.77 in Paris,
quite apart from the fact that it would bring the cost up to $55.03
if, subsequently shipment were made to New York, would be equivalent
to our selling dollars at 1517 1/2 and that we would then compete with
our commercial banks which were now freely taking care of the situation
and, at the prevailing dollar rate of 1519, were paying only $34.73 1/2
per ounce. It had always been the Treasury's policy to avoid compe-
tition with our own banks. Moreover, we would presumably act contrary
to the wishes of the Bank of France, which we understand has suggested
to the banks in Paris that they should not ship gold until the dollar
went to 1519. Bolton confessed that he had not looked at it from that
point of view. I then pointed out that, as mentioned to his yesterday,
our order at $34.77 plus brokerage for delivery in London, of course,
continued to hold. It did not matter, as far as we are concerned,
where the gold came from as long as we did not pay more for delivery
in London than our limit of $34.77 plus brokerage. Bolton inquired
whether $54.77 represented the net outturn which the gold shipper re-
ceived in New York and I replied that, according to all our calcula-
tions, anybody paying more than $54.77 for delivery in London must be
Regraded
DEMON
115 A
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
OF NEW YORK
OFFICE CORRESPONDENCE
DATEHBY 6, 1936.
m CONFIDENTIAL FILES
SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION
L. W. Knoke
WITH BANK OF ENGLAND.
- 2 -
willing to forego even an interest return on the money invested,
leave alone any profit on the transaction.
I thanked Bolton for having put the thought up to us. He
replied that his suggestion had been intended as a cooperative effort
and that he was glad to have had the opportunity to discuss it with me.
I inquired as to market conditions this morning. Bolton
thought things looked 8 shade better; Paris was obviously much less
discouraged today. I asked whether this change was based on anything
other than sentiment. He thought it was entirely sentimental; last
night everybody had expected an embargo on gold to be declared today;
this morning they were happy that this had not happened and had read
with satisfaction of Regnier's statement that he was not going to put
it on. There was an enormous speculative position in the market,
Bolton continued, and the British Fund had "put the market up against
them a bit this morning." Their operations were BO far on a small scale;
he had heard only of a small amount of gold having been engaged for
shipment to New York.
LWK:KMC
Regraded Inclassified
116
Wednesday
May 6, 1936
Operator: Mr. Cochran:
HMjr:
Hello -
H. M.
Cochran:
Hello, Mr. Morgenthau -
HMjr:
Good morning - what's the news?
C:
Have you received - did you get my wires this morning?
I sent one at ten and one at twelve.
HMjr:
Hello -
No, I have received no wires.
C:
HMjr:
I don't hear you.
C:
Have you received any wires from me today?
HMjr:
None
C:
At eleven o'clock this morning -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
I sent you
that last night at the Cabinet meeting -
HMjr:
I - we've got a very bad connection this morning.
Hello?
C:
Can you hear me now?
HMjr:
Talk very slowly.
C:
Yes -
Last night -
HMjr:
Last night?
Operator: Just a minute, please, Secretary, I'll try to get a
(Overseas) better connection for you.
HMjr:
How long will it be?
0.0.:
Just a few moments.
HMjr:
All right.
(Pause)
HMjr:
Hello -
C:
Hello -
Regraded Unclassifie
116A
-2-
HMjr:
Yes, Cochran -
C:
Can you hear me through?
HMjr:
Much better.
C:
Last night at the Cabinet meeting Sarraut asked his
party to remain in office with him until June first.
HMjr:
I see - asked who to remain?
C:
The members of his Cabinet.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
- all of them to remain until June first.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
With the understanding that in the meantime he will
keep in touch and consult with the leaders of the
new majority.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
And at the close of the meeting Regnier, the Minister
of Finance -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Gave out a statement to the press.
HMjr:
He did what?
C:
Gave a statement to the press, -
HMjr:
Yes, we got that.
C:
So you have that?
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- that just confirmed the information that I had given
you before from the Bank of France.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But this was the first time they had made any public
statement -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
-
the Government since the election.
Regraded Unclassifie
116B
-3-
HMjr:
I see.
C:
So that has had a very quieting effect.
HMjr:
Yes - well, that's all right. Now, - things seem a
little quieter then?
C:
It did, yes - up until noon. I talked with Cariguel
at twelve o'clock -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
At that time only a quarter of a billion dollars had
been sold.
HMjr:
Yes - well, that's very good.
C:
Yes
HMjr:
Yes
C:
At three o'clock I spoke with the Guaranty -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
I was talking with them when you tried to get me first.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
At three o'clock they had done a little less than two
billion dollars.
HMjr:
Yes, I see.
C:
But business was increasing just a little at that time.
HMjr:
Well then, it looks as though the Cabinet would hang on
until June one?
C:
It all depends, as I said before, upon this monetary
situation.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
- capital outflow -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
If this statement succeeds in quieting them - the cabin-
quieting the capital fright -
HMjr:
Yes
Regraded 1 Inclassified
116L
-4-
C:
Then this Cabinet will positively hold on until June
frist.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
They had a special meeting of the Regents of the Bank
of France -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- at twelve o'clock today.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- and raised the bank rate from five to six percent.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
They had refrained from taking such action -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- until Regnier might declare himself.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But now that he has given this statement and the situa-
tion reacted -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
- the Bank to do its part, raised the rate.
HMjr:
Yes - all right.
C:
No - it may be quiet a while now, see?
HMjr:
0. K.
C:
But I look for it to get nervous again as the first
of June approaches. That's fairly possible.
HMjr:
Well, that's another life-time.
C:
Yes (Laughter) That's plenty of time.
HMjr:
All right.
C:
Fine
HMjr:
O.K.
C:
But I'll send you the wireless, you see, if I get some-
thing from my friend -
Regraded Unclassified
116 D
-5-
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Fine
HMjr:
Thank you
C:
But there are two wires on the way to you now.
HMjr:
Well, we'll get them in time.
C:
One - in one of them I quoted Parker Willis -
in a cable this morning -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
-
The American stabilization fund was very active
yesterday.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
He said that it furnished the Bank of France with
great amounts of dollars against the gold - earmarked.
HMjr:
Well, Parker Willis is getting old.
C:
(Laughter) I think the people here will believe it
pretty soon.
HMjr:
I hope SO.
C:
Yes
HMjr:
Thank you.
C:
All right, sir
HMjr:
Goodbye.
Regraded Unclassifie
OFFICE OF
117
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
WASHINGTON
and
SECRETARY
May 6, 1936.
MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY:
As reported to you verbally, conferences were had this morning
with representatives of the Seagram Company and Hiram Walker.
Following our conferences on May 4, the State Department (Messrs.
Phillips and Hickerson) was advised (informally by Mr. Whitaker and
myself) that the negotiations with the Seagram Company had definitely
broken down. A copy of my memorandum of May 4 to you was handed to
Mr. Phillips, and I advised him of the intention of the Secretary of
the Treasury and the Attorney General immediatelyto request the Chair-
man of the Senate Finance Committee to proceed with the pending legis-
lation.
Mr. Phillips made the suggestion that it might be advisable before
any final action should be determined upon, for the State Department
to call in the Canadian Charge and inform him that unless substantial
offers should be made immediately by the Canadian companies the legis-
lation would be proceeded with, Mr. Phillips' purpose being to afford
the Canadians one final opportunity, should they desire to have it,
to make offers in compromise of the Government's claims against them.
Mr. Phillips was advised that there would be no objection on the part
of the Treasury Department and the Department of Justice to this
course of action.
On Tuesday, May 5, the State Department (Mr. Hickerson) advised
the Treasury (Mr. Graves) by telephone that, as the result of the
representations made to the Canadians by the State Department pursuant
to the foregoing, the Seagram Company desired to reopen negotiations
for settlement.
To-day's conferences with Seagrams and Hiram Walker followed,
with the results below indicated:
Seagrams.
Mr. Phillips, counsel for the Seagram Company, stated that at his
meeting with the Government's conferees on Monday, May 4, he had not
Regraded Unclassified
Memo. for the Secretury-2.
118
intended to be understood as submitting final offers on behalf of his
company; and that he regretted very much that the Goverment's conferees
had so understood him. He said that the Canadian Government was now
about to fasten the responsibility for the breakdown of negotiations
and for the determination of this Government to proceed with the legis-
lation, upon him and upon his company; and that he did not desire to
take such 8. responsibility. Be said that he was, therefore, prepared
to enter into further discussions with the Government. He submitted
the following offer in settlement of the Government's claim:
The sum of $1,200,000, to be paid in full on or before
January 1, 1937, instalments to be paid at the rate of
30 cents per gallon on all spirits imported into the
United States by the Seagram Company, any outstanding
balance which might exist on January 1, 1937, to be
paid in cash on that date.
Mr. Phillips was careful to say that this was not necessarily the
final offer of his company, and that in the event this offer should
not be acceptable, he desired to proceed further with the negotlations.
On behalf of the Government, Mr. Whitaker advised Mr. Phillips
that his offer was not acceptable, and that it would have to be sub-
stantially increased before it could be given favorable consideration.
Mr. Phillips was told that the Government's conferees would re-
ceive him at any time up to Monday, May 11, for further discussions;
and he asked for, and was given, an appointment for 3:30 to-morrow
afternoon (May 7).
At this morning's conference, Mr. Phillips again stated that his
company did not consider it practicable to make anyoffer on alternative
No. 2 (jurisdiction and security).
Hiram Walker.
Mr. Lash, for Hiram Walker, repeated to the Government's conferses
that his company differed with the Government as to both the facts and
the law of the Government's case; and that his company WAS convinced that
it was not in fact liable for any part of the amount of the claim which
had been asserted. Mr. Whitaker, on behalf of the Government, agreed
that these differences of opinion existed, and suggested to Mr. Lash
that for this reason it was the Government's preference that the Walker
Company should submit itself to the jurisdiction of our courts, so that
there might be a judicial determination of the issues which were involved.
He stated that but for the earnest desire of both Governments to avoid
objectionable legislation this Government would have insisted upon such
a judicial determination; and he suggested that in view of the position
now taken by the Walker Company, the best thing which could be done in
the interest of both parties would be for the company to agree at this
Regraded Unclassifie
119
Memo. for the Secretary-3.
time to submit to the jurisdiction of our courts, and to give security
for the payment of any judgment which might be obtained as the result
of litigation.
Mr. Lash replied that his company must definitely decline to enter
into any such arrangement, but that it was willing to tender an offer
in compromise of the claim. He tendered such an offer, as follows:
$800,000, of which $200,000 would be paid in cash, the balance
to be paid in instalments at the rate of 20 cents per gallon
on all spirits imported into the United States by the Hiram
Walker Company until full payment had been made.
Mr. Lash was advised that his offer was unacceptable.
While Mr. Lash did not indicate that his company would desire to
make a further offer, it is considered likely that this will be done.
GRAVES.
Regraded Unclassifie
per By 120
COMPTROLLER OF THE CURRENCY
WASHINGTON
May 6, 1936.
Dear Henry:
I was rather surprised yesterday when you
advised me in your office that I had violated a rule
laid down by the President that all bills should be
cleared through the Director of the Budget and that I
had introduced bills which had not been cleared.
I am enclosing herewith copies of letters re-
ceived from Honorable Wayne C. Taylor, Under Secretary
of the Treasury, one dated April 20th in which Mr. Taylor
cleared two of my bills and gave me permission to intro-
duce them, reserving the right of the Treasury later to
object, and an undated letter from Mr. Taylor in which
he cleared all of the other bills and returned the drafts
of the legislation on the same conditions.
I called Mr. Bell, Director of the Budget, and
asked him to give me the number of the bill which was
introduced by me without the Budget's approval, and he
said that several bills were introduced without the Budget's
approval. I told him of my conditional clearance from
Under Secretary Taylor, and Mr. Bell said that Mr. Taylor,
being new, probably was not familiar with the rule. I told
Mr. Bell that of course I felt that when I got a clearance
from the Secretary's Office, that was as far as I should go.
I am sure you will be glad to correct your records
to this extent.
1
Cordially yours,
the talket mrst
personal File
J. O'CONNOR
Comptroller
Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.
Secretary of the Treasury
Washington, D. C.
121
COPY
Apr. 20, 1936
My dear Mr. O'Connor:
I am returning the drafts of legislation which
you forwarded with your two letters to the Secretary of
April 16.
If you wish to submit these drafts to Congress
at the present time, I shall not object to your doing so,
although I am not now in a position to assure you that
either of the proposals can be given the Department's appro-
val.
Very truly yours,
/s/ Wayne C. Taylor
Acting Secretary of the Treasury.
Hon. J. F. T. O'Connor
Comptroller of the Currency
122
COPY
My dear Mr. O'Connor:
I am returning the drafts of legislation which
you forwarded with your letter to the Secretary of March 31.
If you wish to submit these drafts to Congress at
the present time, I shall not object to your doing so, although
I am not now in a position to assure you that all of the propo-
sals can be given the Department's approval.
Very truly yours,
/s/ Wayne C. Taylor
Acting Secretary of the Treasury.
Hon. J. F. T. 0'Connor
Comptroller of the Currency.
Inclassific
123
MEMORANDUM RELATIVE TO S. 4513, 4 BILL TO AMEND THE ACT ENTITLED "AN
ACT TO PROVIDE A NATIONAL CURRENCY SECURED BY A PLEDGE OF UNITED
STATES BONDS AND TO PROVIDE FOR THE CIRCULATION AND REDEMPTION THEREOF."
This bill provides as follows:
1. The Comptroller of the Currency 1a given unlimited power to make
such rules and regulations as he deems necessary for the performance of
duties imposed on him by the provisions of laws relating to national banks.
2. "Notwithstanding any other provision of law, the Comptroller of
the Currency, in fixing the salaries of Deputy Comptrollers of the Currency.
and of other officers and employees who are now or hereafter may be under
his direction by virtue of any provision of law, and whose salaries are
payable from funds under his control and supervision derived from assess-
ments levied by him or as otherwise provided by law, may apportion their
salaries among said funds where they render services in connection with
more than one administrative division or branch of the duties and functions
imposed by law upon him in any capacity."
Comments.
The provisions conferring unlimited power to the Comptroller relative
to the issuance of regulations and rules warrant careful consideration for
the following reasons:
1. The Comptroller of the Currency has not previously been given
blanket power to issue regulations incident to the performance
of his duties. Previous law has authorized him to issue regu-
lations in the following specific cases:
as In the case of a national bank acting as an in-
surance agent or broker.
be For the computation, assessment, and collection
of expenses of examination.
Co In connection with banks in conservatorship
under the provisions of Section 211 of the
Bank Conservation Act.
d. In connection with dealing in investment
securities by national banks.
" For the purpose of defining "investment securi-
ties."
to Providing for the destruction of obsolete plates
and type for national bank notes.
Regraded
124
- 2 -
8. If this proposed bill were passed it would tend to give legal
effect to regulations previously issued by the Comptroller of
the Currency without authority.
3. The position of the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation in
its attempts, in the interests of efficiency, to persuade the
Comptroller to relax certain of his existing rules pertaining
to liquidation of closed banks would be considerably weakened.
4. The natural effect of the passage of this bill would be to
increase considerably the regulations issued by the Comptrollar.
5. The proposed bill is probably not constitutional in that it
does not lay down any standards that would serve to define the
limits of the regulations that might be issued, that is, it
constitutes a delegation of an unlimited authority to the
Comptroller of the Currency.
While the provisions relating to the distribution of salaries of
officers and employees under the direction of the Comptroller among vari-
ous divisions or branches ostensibly apply only to officers and employees
actually on the rolls of the Office of the Comptroller of the Currency
they may, in fact, be much more far reaching than that, if the Comptrollar
is able to substantiate his claim that agente of the Federal Deposit In-
surance Corporation acting for the Corporation in connection with the
liquidation of closed banks are, in fact, agente of the Comptroller of the
Currency, the salaries of these employees would in all probability be made
subject to the provisions of this law. If it is determined that the Federal
Deposit Insurance Corporation 18 an independent contractor having jurisdic-
tion over its own employees or agents rather than an agent of the Comp-
troller of the Currency in the liquidation of closed national banks, them
this law would probably in no way affect employees of the Corporation.
If these provisions relating to the fixing and distribution of sale-
ries actually are intended to apply only to employees on the rolls of the
Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, it would appear that this pro-
posed bill is unnecessary, since such 6 distribution of expenses should be
purely an administrative matter and should not require a law similar to
the one proposed.
It appears highly desirable that in order to avoid further conflict
between this Corporation and the Comptroller of the Currency, and to
eliminate the possibility of additional confusion in the matter of liquida-
tion of closed national banks that the proposed law in its present form
not be passed.
Regraded Unclassifie
C
125
0
P
Y
FARM CREDIT ADMINISTRATION
WASHINGTON, D. C.
April 28, 1936
The Honorable,
The Secretary of the Treasury.
Dear Henry:
The Farm Credit Administration has no convenient garage
facilities for its official cars, four of which are kept at
Second and Canal Streets and two at Thirteenth Street and
Constitution Avenue.
If the building at 406 Thirteenth Street, N. W., which
is adjacent to our offices, should become available it would
afford very convenient garage facilities, as well as storage
space on the upper floors for reserve equipment now stored
in Temporary Building F, and for inactive files and miscel-
laneous supplies now inadequately stored in our office
building.
I will very much appreciate your consideration of our
needs should the building referred to be vacated.
Sincerely yours,
/s/ W. I. Myers
Governor
Regraded Unclassified
126
Preliminary memorandum on bills recommended by Comptroller of
the Currency.
1. S. 4511, To increase examination fees of District of Columbia
Credit Unions: The effect of this proposal would be, certainlywith
respect to small credit unions, to charge fees greater than the credit
unions could stand. I am informed by Farm Credit that the actual cost
of examination will run from $30 to $50 per examination, an increase of
many times over the present average fee of $5.48, and that no credit
unions smaller than $15,000 could stand this charge.
2. S. 4513, Authorizing the Comptroller to make rules and regula-
tions and to apportion salaries of his employees: The rules and regula-
tions are not subject to approval by the Secretary and the effect of
apportionment of salaries while ostensibly designed to permit the cost
of the Chief Deputy to be allocated to closed banks on which he is now
working exclusively, would actually be to permit the allocation to going
banks of the expense of the entire insolvent bank section, the work of
which is probably tapering off and will soon be negligible in view of
the winding up of receiverships and the activities of Federal Deposit
Insurance Corporation.
3. S. 4515, Referring to conversions of state banks into national
banks. This amendment would accomplish two things; first, to permit
state banks to become national banks with less than the required amount
of prescribed capital where they have outstanding capital notes or
debentures given to the Reconstruction Finance Corporation, if they give
Regraded Unclassified
- 2 -
127
assurances satisfactory to the Comptroller that they will increase their
capital after charter to the required amount and retire their capital
notes or debentures; and, second, to abolish double liability on their
shareholders when they have 80 converted. The success of the first
proposal will be dependent largely upon the cooperation of the Reconstruction
Finance Corporation and we have not yet been advised of their attitude;
and the second suggestion has the disadvantage that it unduly encourages
state banks to convert since a state bank organized prior to 1933 could
by conversion relieve its shareholders of liability, a course not open to
a national bank chartered at the same time.
4. The remaining three bills - S. 4510, S. 4512, and S. 4514 are
being revised and we have not yet been furnished with the ultimate revision.
Regraded Unclassified
WALL STREET JOURNAL - May 6, 1956.
128
O'Connor's Bank Bills
Opposed By FDIC;
Hearings to Reopen
Long Standing Conflict Renewed on
Comptroller's Jurisdiction in Re-
ceiverships
From Tas WALL STREET JOURNAL Washington Bureau
WASHINGTON-The long standing conflict
between the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp.
and the office of the Comptroller of the Cur-
rency for increased jurisdiction over the na-
tion's banking system Tuesday showed promise
of breaking into the open before the end of
the week,
A. general reopening of this issue which has
smouldered with intermittent outbursts since
the inception of the Deposit Insurance Corp.
was pointed to when the House Banking and
Currency Committee announced that, at the re-
quest of the FDIC, it will reopen hearings on the
banking legislation recommended by Comp-
troller J. F, T. O'Connor.
The banking bill, which would give the
comptroller new and increased powers over
banks in receivership, was ordered reported to
the House last week by the committee. The
committee's decision to reconsider the measure
is tantamount to & rescission of its favorable
report on the measure.
Members of the committee said that the
FDIC has raised objections to & provision which
would give preferential treatment to those
shareholders in banks in receivership who have
paid up their assessments and permit them at
the discretion of the comptroller to select an
agent to replace the receiver after all claims
have been settled. The FDIC, It was said, feels
that unless special provision in made its claims
against residual assets might be jeopardized by
such treatment.
There in some sentiment in the committee
to revise the legislation to give the FDIC power
to examine national banks. Under existing
laws, the office of the comptroller is the only
agency with this power. The FDIC feels that
since it insures these banks and carries the
risks, It. should have & part in determining
when failing banks should be closed and should
be permitted to make examinations.
The committee plans to reopen the hearings
on Wednesday or Thursday. Leo T. Crowley,
chairman of the FDIC, and Comptroller of the
Currency O'Connor are scheduled to appear.
Whan the hearings were Arst held, Mr.
d'Connor was the only witness to testify before
the committee. with the FDIC being left out
completely.
WALL STREET JOURNAL - May 5, 1936.
129
Major Banking Law Changes Not Expected
To Be Made by Congress at This Session;
O'Connor Offers Committee Five Minor Bills
BY CARLTON SKINNER
chairman of the Banking & Currency Commit-
WASHINGTON-Statements by the two
tee, said he saw no reason for banking legisia-
senators with a large degree of control over
tion, although he had no objection to passage
banking legislation indicate that no changes
of five small bills submitted to the committee
will be made in banking laws at this session of
by Comptroller of the Currency O'Connor,
Congress.
One bill would permit national banks to de-
Benator Carter Glass, (Dem., Va chairman
clare dividends on common stock at any the
of the suboommittee on monetary policy, bank-
instead of on a semi-annual basis as la now
ing and deposit Insurance of the Senate Bank-
required.
ing and Currency Committee, declared there in
Another would require national banks to
a "decided probability" that no banking bills
transfer earnings to surplus every aix months,
will be passed by the Senate. Referring critic-
whether or not any dividends are declared, until
ally to his experience in the last few gessions,
surplus equals 100% of common capital.
Glass said, "They no sooner get the Ink dry on
A third would allow the Comptroller of the
one bill than they start to write another." He
Currency to treat capital notes and debentures
said there were no important bills before his
of state banks as preferred and common stocks
subcommittee nor was there any need for a
not subject to double liability in cases in which
banking bill this year.
the mate bank in converted into a national one
Senator Duncan U. Fletcher, (Dem., Fla.)
provided an exchange la effected after conver-
sion in completed.
A. bill which might induce state banks te
enter the national system is one allowing con-
verting state bank to be treated as newly.
chartered institutions, with its stock not sub-
ject to the double liability.
The final proposal would give preferential
treatment to shareholders in closed national
banks who have paid stock assessments levied
by the comptroller in cases where liabilities ex-
ceeded assets.
The five bills did not go through the Treas-
ury channels. A report is still to come from
Secretary Morgenthau and there is As yet no
indication whether or not It will be favorable.
At the only hearing on them to date, Robert
V. Fleming, president of the American Bankers
Association, recommended minor changes in
phrasing, which would make them setisfactory
to him.
Regraded Unclassified
129A
Wednesday
May 6, 1936
Leo T.
Crowley: Yes
HMjr:
I got a message from your office and then I spoke to
Jesse Jones about your being over there at eleven.
C:
Yes
HMjr:
I called up McIntyre and McIntyre said he'd rather that
you didn't come but that you hold yourself in readiness
at the office, see?
C:
Thank you, I'll do that, Mr. Secretary.
HMjr:
If you'd stay around your office from eleven until
twelve in case we'd want you, but he said he'd rather
first sit down with Jones and O'Connor and myself.
C:
That's perfectly all right. I want you to keep this
in mind, Mr. Secretary, of course, that that gives that
fellow a chance to make a lot of accusations that puts
me more or less in a position that I have to substantiate
everything he says, but I know you understand that.
HMjr:
Well, this is the way McIntyre wants it.
C:
Sure, I know that.
HMjr:
And -
C:
I'll be very happy and I'll be at the office - if you
want me call me.
HMjr:
All right.
C:
Thank you.
HMjr:
Thank you.
Regraded Unclassified
129B
Wednesday
May 6, 1936
HMjr:
Hello - hello - hello -
Operator:
Secretary Morgenthau, Mr. Jones -
HMjr:
Put him on, please.
Operator:
All right, he's on.
HMjr:
Hello
Jesse
Jones:
Henry?
HMjr:
Yes
J:
What do you think about meeting in your office?
HMjr:
Well, I think McIntyre wants us over there, doesn't
he?
J:
All right - I just hadn't any choice - I thought
maybe -
HMjr:
Well, we could - I go in the back way so they don't
see me.
J:
You go in the back way?
HMjr;
Do you know how to do that?
J:
What?
HMjr:
Do you know the way to go in through the back?
J:
No - is that - how do you do that?
HMjr:
Well, if you'd come over to my office we'll walk over
together.
J:
All right. I'll tell you what -
HMjr:
And then nobody sees you. You can get to the Cabinet
room from the Treasury without anybody knowing it.
J:
I see. Then I'll tell you, I'll come to your office -
at what time are we leaving?
HMjr:
Five minutes of eleven -
J:
All right, I'll be over there at five minutes of eleven.
HMjr:
And I spoke to McIntyre and he said he distinctly does
not want Crowley there.
Regraded Unclassified
129C
-2-
J:
He did not want him?
HMjr:
No
J:
So -
all right.
HMjr:
I've had a call in for Crowley. He's stepped out, but
I am going to tell Crowley.
J:
All right.
HMjr:
See?
J:
All right.
HMjr:
If you'll be here at five minutes of eleven we can
walk over and then nobody sees us.
J:
All right.
Regraded Unclassified
129D
Wednesday
May 6, 1936
HMjr:
What's all this telephoning that you are doing about
Crowley?
M. J.
Fox:
Well, I hope I'm not messing anything up.
HMjr:
Well, - why are you in it at all?
F:
Well, because, I thought if there was anything there
that you want to know you'd have an opportunity to go
over this statement. You told me once before you
had an opportunity to go over the statement.
HMjr:
Well, what statement?
F:
That statement of the Legislative
- between
O'Connor and
HMjr:
But Tim, why do you interject yourself into this thing?
F:
I didn't want to.
HMjr:
Well, were you asked to?
F:
No - no
HMjr:
You were not asked to?
F:
No
HMjr:
Well then for heaven's sakes use a little sense.
F:
All right.
HMjr:
I mean, if you weren't asked to, keep out of it.
F:
All right, sir.
HMjr:
And if Crowley wants to talk to me let him call me.
F:
All right.
HMjr:
But use a little horse sense will you please?
F:
Well, I asked him to call you and he won't do it.
HMjr:
Well, all right
F:
All right -
HMjr:
Use a little horse sense.
-2-
F:
All right.
HMjr:
All right.
Regraded Unclassified
May 7th 1936
130
Saw the President about the CCC camps. I strongly
urged the President not to raise the limit of families with
incomes of $500, first, because that would take away his best
argument that employment is decreasing in the country and,
second, because I was most fearful that he would extend the
qualification for what is an unemployed family generally.
He promised me he would not do 1t.
On Hopkins being out of money - I showed him Bell's
figures that Hopkins would be short $23,000,000 on July 1
(statements attached herewith) I suggested that he take 5%
of the unobligated funds which would produce a little over
$30,000,000. He balked quite hard at this and said, "it might
do a great injustice to the CCC camps where they set aside
unobligated funds to buy food". I said, "well supposing they
have, you will have a leeway of $7,000,000 and you could
reallocate some of this money to any agency where you have
done them a grave injustice by taking the money away". He
said, "that is right". I said, "shall I have Bell draw up
the letters" and he said, "yes" so I asked him whether Hopkins,
Bell and I could see him after Cabinet and close the whole
thing up at that time. He said, "yes".
I did not give him the letter which I had prepared
for his signature and which was addressed to me taking off the
red tape on the Hopkins obligations because I wanted him to
sign it this afternoon simultaneously when he signed the letters
to the agencies taking away the 5%.
He said, "tell Bell that I would like him to make a
study of all the unobligated funds in the regular departments
as they exist to-day in the present fiscal year just as we
did in Albany". I also told Bell to make recommendations to
the President as to what unobligated funds in the regular de-
partment I can cancel.
I again spoke to him about the tremendous importance
of his being able to say on July 1st that he had not touched
one single cent out of the billion and a half and I have him
now completely sold on this idea. He likes it.
I said to the President, "I am being pushed a little
bit hard this week" and he said, "so am I because I have had
too many conferences and I am just a little tired".
# See diary of May 8th for attachments.
Regraded Unclassified
131
May 8, 1938
HM,Jr. today had a meeting with Hopkins and Bell.
The Secretary said to Hopkins, "I told you the other
day, Harry, that I considered it very important that not
one cent of the $1,500,000,000 be obligated or spent before
July 1. The President is now completely sold on that.
Bell tells me that after you left here, you and he were
$25,000,000 apart. I do not want to say that you should
spend $25,000,000 less, so in order to get this money for
you I gave the President a scheme and he 1s going to sign
a letter to every agency taking 5% away from them of their
unobligated funds, which will give you $30,000,000. (The
unobligated balances are $615,000,000, 5% of which is
$30,000,000.) I want you to give me your word of honor
that if we do this, you will not come back to me and say,
You must give me part of the $1,500,000,000." Harry said O.K.
HM,Jr. said to Mr. Hopkins, "This is what I do not want --
50,000 men at work in the last two weeks in June who will be
paid out of the $1,500,000,000 after July 1." To which Mr.
Hopkins replied, "What you are talking about are the obliga-
tions. On June 30, you have obligated the payroll to July 15
so it 18 into the next fiscal year." Bell said, "You want to
run up to June 30 on the 4 billion 8 money, but he cannot go
out before July 1 and buy materials. He has to put in his
order prior, but the President can say no material has been
taken delivery of and no people have worked or have gotten one
cent out of the $1,500,000,000 before July 1."
Mr. Hopkins then asked Mr. Bell the following: "Dan, tell
me how much money we will get before I make & definite promise
to Henry. I am to get the $5,000,000,000 which Dan is holding
for me out of the $47,000,000 and the $23,000,000 more which
will take me through to June 30? If Dan can promise me that,
I am prepared to say that I will not use a penny of the
$1,500,000,000."
HM,Jr. then said, "Then we will have no more discussion
and this ends it." Hopkins stated to the Secretary, "I will
say that this will be done and the unemployed will not suffer.
This is my responsibility and not Gill's and I will do it. I
agree that none of this money shall be taken out of the
$1,500,000,000."
Regraded Unclassified
132
WORKS PROGRESS ADMINISTRATION
Unobligated
Unexpended
Balances as of April 20, 1936
-----
$295.1 M
$503.3 M
In process of transfer-
47.
47
Available
$342.1 M
$550.3 M
Estimated requirements:
For
For
obligation
expenditure
April 20-30 ...
$55 M
$65 M
May
160
170
June-
150
160
365.
395
Short for obligation
$23.1 M
Available for expenditure June 30
$155.3 M
DuB
Regraded Unclassified
Kimp
133
UNOBLIGATED AND UNEXPENDED BALANCES OF $4,880 M, EXCLUDING
WORKS PROGRESS ADMINISTRATION, AS OF APRIL 20, 1936
5%
4%
3%
2%
Unobligated balances
$615.7M
$30.8
$24.6
$18.5
$12.3
Unexpended balances
1,379.5
69.0
55.2
41.4
27.6
DWB
Regraded Unclassified
1.7w example aty servers-
n.i.R. n. mmy DOB vaisius from
I okes - also loans from sale of
securities by Ickes 20 -
8.016
0.00
0.32
0,000
Kaditalad
8.91
balk
9.00
0.00
normalad Description
/
THE WHITE HOUSE
COPY
WASHINGTON
134
May 7 1936
CONFIDENTIAL
My dear Mr. Secretary:
Pending the availability of additional funds, to be provided
by the appropriation now before the Congress, to carry on the Works
Progress Administration program it is necessary to obtain a sub-
stantial amount from funds previously allocated from the appropria-
tion contained in the Emergency Relief Appropriation Act of 1935.
It is requested that you immediately make available for re-
transfer to said appropriation an amount equal to 5% of the aggre-
gate of the unobligated balances, as of April 30. 1936, of all
allocations heretofore made from said appropriation for work coming
under your jurisdiction, including funds allocated for administra-
tive expenses.
Please advise me in detail not later than May 11, 1936, the
amount which will be available for this purpose. Your reply should
indicate the exact amount to be taken from each project, designated
by the official project number assigned in the letter making the
original allocation, and should contain the statement that the amount
under each project is unobligated and unencumbered, and available for
transfer back to the original a ccount.
Sincerely yours,
(Signed) Franklin D. Roosevelt.
The Honorable,
The Secretary of the Treasury.
The above letter was also sent to the following:
Secretary of Agriculture
N
II Commerce
#
= Interior
Attorney General
Secretary of Labor
Secretary of the Navy
Secretary of War
Chairman, Dwelling Auth. for D.C.
Chairman, U.S. Employees' Compensation
Comptroller General of the U.S.
Director, Emergency Conservation Work
Administrator, Federal Emergency Ad. of P.W.
(Actg. Executive Director, National Emergency Council
Chairman, National Resources Committee
Chairman, Prison Industries Reorganization Administration
Administrator, Resettlement Administration
Administrator, Rural Electrification Administration
Administrator of Veterans Affairs, Veterans Admin,
Regraded Unclassified
THAN DELANT
135
Eashington
Office of
The Secretary
May 8, 1936
CONVIDENTIAL
To Hoads of Buronus and Offices Having Allotrants
Under The Shorgency Appropriation lot of 1935,
The President under date of Key 7, 1933 requested that the
Secretary of the Tronsury make available for retransfer to the
appropriation contained in the Provency Halief Appropriation Act
of 1935, an amount equal to five per-sens of the aggregate of the
unobligated balances as of April 30, 1036 of all allocations here+
tofore mudo from the said appropriation for work occing malor his
jurisdiction, including fundo allocated for administrative expense,
to carry on the Norks Program Administration program pending the
availability of additional funds to be providoû by the appropria-
tion now before the Congress.
You are requested to adviso the Bulgot Officer not later than
May s, 1936, the amount which will be available for this purpose
from the allotment made to your office from the above montioned
appropriation. Your reply should indicate the exact amount to be
taken from each project designated by the official project number
assigned in the lotter making the original allocation, and should
contain the statement that the amount under oach project is un
obligated and unensumbored, and available for transfer back to the
original account.
By diroction of the Geeretary:
Very truly yours,
time E. MORKYHOLDS,
Addinistrativo Assistant
to the Secretary.
Regraded
Unclassified
136
May 7, 1936
HM,Jr. talked to the President at 9:15 and said, "I
have been unable to get Paris. Things look a little bit
quieter. The Bank of France put their discount rate up
to 6%, which is the orthodox defense of the gold standard.
Sterling is a little bit steadier. It is 4.96."
He reported to the President that the Federal Reserve
Bank of New York had turned over to the Treasury a copy of
cable which the Bankers Trust Company of New York had furnished
to the Federal Reserve. This cable came from the London office
of the Bankers Trust and asked whether gold could be shipped
from the United States to Great Britain by new regulations
of the Secretary of the Treasury or whether further legisla-
tion would be necessary to permit such shipments. The Treasury
opinion, he told the President, is that regulations could be
promulgated without further legislation, but, he added, "This
is very significant."
He also reported to the President that the Federal Reserve
Bank of New York had received a call direct from the Bank of
England in connection with our standing order with them to buy
gold at $34.77 an ounce, whether we would be interested -- in
order to divert some of the present flow from Europe to New
York -- in having the Bank of England buy gold for United
States account in Paris at $34.77 plus cost of shipment from
Paris to London, or a total of $34.80 an ounce, this gold to
be held in London for U.S. Account. HM, Jr. told the President
that our answer was "Our price is $34.77 and we do not care
whose gold it is. If we paid $34.80 it would cost us over
$35.00 delivered in New York." (Report of Mr. Knoke, of the
Federal Reserve, covering the telephone conversation with the
Bank of England is filed under date of May 5.)
HM,Jr. said to the President, "In one day, we had those
two feelers. In other words, they are looking which way to
turn in case France goes off gold,"
The President then said to HM,Jr.: "On that 1933 London
Economic Conference file, I have gone over it and I have de-
cided that I should not let these files out of my hands. I,
therefore, suggest that you come over sometime and read it
here." HM,Jr. replied, "I now have a confidential file that
Woodin handed to Bell when he left here which is full of in-
formation in regard to Warburg and Douglas."
Regraded
Unclassified
136 A
-2-
HM,Jr. asked the President to give him an appointment
tomorrow morning. "I would like you to give me a final
yes or no on the amount of Chinese silver that we are going
to buy," he told the President.
HM,Jr. also told the President that he saw Harry Hopkins
yesterday and "if we took off all the red tape he is short
$80,000,000. He would need $80,000,000 more to go to July 1.
He would have to take $80,000,000 out of the $1,500,000,000.
Harry has come down to being short only $25,000,000 and he
is coming back again tomorrow. Before we agree to take off
the limitations, he will have to say that he has enough money
out of the $4,800,000,000 to last him until July 1."
Regraded Unclassified
136B
COPY
CABLE RECEIVED FROM BANKERS TRUST COMPANY, LONDON
London, England,
May 5, 1936
COULD BANK OF ENGLAND BE INCLUDED FOR GOLD SHIPMENTS
FROM AMERICA BY SECRETARY TREASURY REGULATION OR IS AMENDING
LEGISLATION NECESSARY?
Regraded Unclassified
137
May 7, 1936
The Mexican Ambassador, Mr. Najera, came in today to
discuss with HM, Jr. the proposal of the Mexican Secretary
of the Treasury, Mr. Suarez, transmitted to Secretary Mor-
genthau in Mr. Najer's's letter of April 30. Mr. Suarez'
memorandum and Mr. Najerá's letter are attached. Taylor and
Lochhead were present.
The following conversation took place:
HM,Jr.: Mr. Ambassador, I got your letter from our
good friend, Mr. Suarez, and I have been & little slow this
time, for two reasons. The last time we talked and we
entered into this agreement, which so far has worked very
nicely, I kept bringing to Mr. Suarez' attention that I
thought Mexico, as the biggest producer of silver in the
world, should do something for silver inside of Mexico.
Up to today, nothing has happened.
Ambassador: He wants to do.
HM.Jr.: He wants to do if we do something more. But
I sort of feel that on the agreement which we made -- the
first agreement -- that that ought to have been enough help;
that he should have shown some move on the part of the Gov-
ernment that they were going to do something to use more
silver in Mexico. Up to date, nothing has happened and
I think before we go into another conference it might be
nice if the Mexican Government showed that besides selling
silver, they were interested in using it.
Ambassador: He 18 going to put in circulation now more
quantity.
HM,Jr.: He spoke of that the last time he was here;
that he would take it under advicement, and I brought it to
his attention that they might again coin some new silver
pesos on a new basis and, as I understood, they still have
100,000,000 old pesos out which the people did not want to
give up in place of money and that they might be exchanged.
for new pesos. I think they don't need help from anybody.
Ambassador: These old pesos are in circulation in
Yucatan; not possible to exchange them.
HM,Jr.: I have not looked it up recently, but you had
138
-2-
200,000,000 paper pesos in circulation and we kept taking
and taking, and all I can do is to suggest, but it would
be nice if the biggest producer -- Mexico, would show the
world that they had some use for silver because they keep
telling me that Mexico has paper money and Mexico does not
use silver and why should anyone else?
Ambassador: I think it 18 possible to do that.
HM,Jr.: But I would like them to show at little inter-
est; help me to carry the burden of the world silver.
Ambassador: Well, I will talk to him.
HM,Jr.: Suppose you have a talk with him and say I
am a little disappointed because I think it would be & great
mistake if he came here and then it was a failure.
Ambassador: Yes. I was talking with him day before
yesterday and he said that he is supposed to come about last
ten days of this month, if it 1s possible to do something.
HM,Jr.: Why don't you tell him of this conversation?
Ambassador: I want to do that.
HM,Jr.: Tell him I am 8. little disappointed.
Ambassador: All right.
HM,Jr.: I had hoped that something would have been done
before this.
Ambassador: What do you suggest? I think he will ask
for further suggestions.
HM,Jr.: I don't know what to suggest. I just left it
this way when he was here, that the Mexican Government should
show sufficient interest in silver that they should increase
the use of it internally. How they should do it, I did not
want to suggest to them.
Ambassador: I sec. He wants to do, but he can't.
HM,Jr.: I can't make him do it. I don't want to go
139
-3-
BO far as suggest.
Ambassador: I want to talk with him and I will tell him
what is your opinion and that if he can find something to --
then if not, this is not the opportunity for him to come now.
HM,Jr.: Not unless he can give me some indication, be-
cause he has had three or four months to think this thing over
and nothing has happened. You remember, we brought it up
and made them a loan on 11,000,000 ounces, but let Mexico show
8. little interest.
Ambassador: I don't know what the situation 1s down there.
HM,Jr.: But it would be much better for us to have these
preliminary conferences than to have him come here and the
newspapers would ask you and ask me to Bay what happened and
we would say, Nothing has happened. The friendship between
the two countries is at stake and it's too big 8 risk to take
to have him come up until we know more what he can do. I
don't want to take that responsibility, because when he left
everything was fine. Everything is fine now. And he comes
up and he has certain ideas and we can't meet them and then
it would be unfortunate.
Ambassador: I am going to talk to him right away and
see what, after this conversation, he is going to do.
HM,Jr.: Yes;see what he can do.
Ambassador: He is anxious to do something, but I think
he cannot.
HM,Jr.: Then, if you will give me a ring, I will be
delighted to see you again.
Ambassador: All right. After I talk to him, I will
see you.
Regraded Unclassified
140
PERSONAL.
bajada DE MEXICO
Washington, D. C.,
April 30, 1936.
Hon. Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,
Secretary of the Treasury,
Washington, D. C.
My dear Mr. Secretary:
I take pleasure in sending you herewith a
memorandum, written in Spanish, which your colleague
and friend, Secretary of the Treasury Suarez, has
asked me to bring to your personal and friendly atten-
tion.
I take the liberty of enclosing & translation
of said memorandum, made by this Embassy; but you may,
of course, have your staff make another translation of
same document, for greater accuracy.
It is useless to say here that Secretary
Suarez, speaking in behalf of my government, concedes
to this matter an unusual importance.
Secretary Suarez wants me to tell you, fur-
thermore, that in case you be interested in this pro-
position, he himself, or the Director of the Banco de
Mexico, would be glad to come to Washington, in order
to make any final arrangements.
Thanking you, once more, for the friendly
interest with which you have followed, since the begin-
ning, the development of this matter; and thanking you
also for the attention you might give to this particular
proposition, I remain, my dear Mr. Secretary,
Very cordially yours,
Francisco
Ambassador. Castillo Nájera,
Regraded Unclassified
141
141
BAJADA DE MEXICO
MEMORANDUM
1) As a result of high silver prices in
the world markets recorded a year ago, the Mexican
Government had to retire by law the silver currency then
in circulation, to replace it with other coins that would
not be subject to the danger of being melted and
exported by private individuals.
2) Such measure, obviously a necessary
one, meant the demonetization of appreciable quantities
of silver and their incorporation into the reserve that
the country has to regulate foreign exchange.
3) These two steps have resulted in
evident difficulties, which the Government of Mexico
should like to eliminate by reorganizing on a better
basis both the monetary system and the Institution
acting as the Central Bank of the Nation. In this
manner it would be possible to give to silver its
monetary use, in harmony with the practices that are
being accepted as the only ones compatible with the
requirements of a Central Bank capable of exercising
its functions as to exchange and a well proportioned
and adaptable circulation.
4) For this purpose, the Mexican Govern-
ment plans:
a) To mint again One Peso silver coins
to take the place of present One Peso certificates;
141A
BAJADA DE MEXICO
-8-
b) To issue Five Peso silver certificates
that would replace present Five Peso notes. These
new bills would represent coined or bullion silver
deposited at the Bank of Mexico, and the issue of
paper currency in denominations under ten pesos
would be forbidden;
c) To substitute present 50 € coins
containing 3.3488 grammes of pure silver (0.420),
by new ones with a higher silver contents; and
d) To allow coined or bullion silver
to form part of the Reserve of the Central Bank.
The latter would be authorized to acquire silver
up to 25% of its gold and foreign currency in stock,
plus fifteen million Pesos additional.
5) So that the new silver coins and the
silver backing the certificates may be protected from
another appreciable rise in the price of the metal, the
monetary relation selected for the minting of the coins
and the issuance of the certificates would be that of
eight grammes of pure silver per Peso, Mexican currency.
This would bring the "silver melting point" up to a
level commensurate with silver prices higher than
$1.07 U.S.Cy. an ounce, as long as the present rate of
dollar exchange is maintained for the Mexican Peso.
142
BAJADA DE MEXICO
-3-
6) Adoption of the above plan would
enable the Mexican Government to turn back in a short
time to its former monetary use some fifty-eight million
ounces of silver, which is all circulation itself could
absorb for the time being, for that means currency
amounting to approximately 225 millions of Pesos in 506
and One Peso coins and Five Peso certificates. Further-
more, after completion of the silver sale transaction
outlined below, the plan would make it possible for the
Bank of Mexico to include about 35 million ounces in
its Reserve.
7) The very nature of the above measures
and of those to perfect the plan, demands a more solid
Reserve, i.e., a readjustment of present proportions
between gold and foreign currency on the one hand, and
coined or bullion silver in such Reserve on the other;
that readjustment to be made by selling the silver
surplus. Besides, unless this last step is taken, the
Bank would find it difficult to attempt to retire old
silver coins that are still in circulation, for
remonetization thereafter.
8) These are the reasons for the Govern-
ment of Mexico to propose to sell some 60 million ounces
of silver, in such 8. way as not to hurt either the
market or present agreements and measures to regulate
and support it. On the other hand, it is the belief of
143
mbajada DE MEXICO
the Government of Mexico that the reorganization of its
monetary system, as per the ideas outlined above, will
not fail to result in influencing favorably the
possibilities of stabilization of that market and even
its recovery, partially at least.
9) The Balance of Payments of Mexico
often 18 highly unfavorable, particularly in times of
depression, due to the nature and sources of its trade
as well as to its position as a debtor nation. This
makes imperative the necessity of a solid Reserve,
B0 constituted that without any appreciable loss the
Central Bank may at all times dispose of important
amounts out of the resources of said Reserve. To attain
this purpose, and in view of present silver market
conditions, purchases of the metal by the Bank of
Mexico would have to be limited to the minimum, unless
the Bank were to have a special fund in order to absorb
the losses caused by the adjustment of its Reserve to
legal proportions between its gold resources and its
silver stock, should a heavy drainage occur.
10) The above explains why in order to
carry out this plan it 18 necessary to sell the silver
surplus at a price that would furnish the Mexican Govern-
ment with the means to establish the special fund in
question. The Government of Mexico looks forward to
144
mbajada DE MEXICO
-5-
securing a price considerably higher than those
prevailing today in the international markets, both,
due to the above, as well as in view of the improve-
ment bound to result from these measures for the
conditions of said markets.
EA.
Regraded Unclassified
145
MBAJADA DE MEXICO
MEHORANDUM.
1.- Debido a los altos precios que alcanzo la plata
hace un año en el mercado mundial, el Gobierno de México
tuvo que decretar el retiro de las monedas de ese metal
que se encontraban en circulacion, para substituirlas por
otras que no estuvieran expuests al peligro de ser fun-
didas y exportadas por los particulares.
2.- Dicha medida, necesaria a todas luces, se tradu-
jo en la desmonetizacion de importantes cantidades de pla-
ta y en su incorporacion a la Reserva de que el pais dis-
pone para regular sus cambios sobre el exterior.
3.- Ambas consecuencias presentan, inconvenientes ob-
vios, que el Gobierno de Mexico desearia remover, reorga-
nizando, sobre mejores bases, el sistema monetario V la
institucion que funge como Banco Central de la Nacion, pa-
ra dar cacida a la utilización monetaria de la plata con-
forme a las practicas que tienden 8 ser consideradas como
las unicas compatibles con 1as exigencias de un Banco Oen-
tral capacitado para atender su función, cambiaria, y de
una circulacion bien pro orcionada y elastica.
4.- Al efecto, el Gobierno de México proyecta: (1) la
reacumacion de monedas de un peso, en substitucion de los.
actuales billetes de esa misma denominacion: (2) 18 emision
de certificados-plata con valor de cinco pesos, que vendrian
B. reemplazar a los billetes de igual importe y que represen-
tarian plata amonedada o en barras depositada en el Benco de
México, quedando prohibida la emision de billetes con deno-
minacion menor de diez pesos: (3) la substitucion de las mo-
nedas de cincuenta centavos con contenido de grms. 3.3488 de
plata pura y ley de 0.420, por piegas de ley mas fina y ma-
yor contenido de plata: y (4) la admision de plata amoneda-
de 0 en barras como parte de la Reserva Cambiaria del Banco
Central, el que quedaria autorizado para adquirir plata por
valor hasta de un veinticinco por ciento del de sus exis-
tencias en oro y divisas reunidas, libres de gravamenes, y
quince millones de pesos mas.
5.- Pare que 1as nuevas piezas de plata y la plata re-
presentada por certificados queden a cubierto de otra alza
fuerte en el precio de ese metal, la relacion monetaria es-
cogida para la acuñación de las primeras y la emision de
108 segundos 68 de ocho gramos de plata pure por cada peso,
moneda
Regraded
146
MBAJADA DE MEXICO
-2-
moneda nacional, 10 que elevaría el "melting silver point"
al nivel correspondiente a precios superiores a Dle, 1.07
la onga troy de fino, mientres se mantenga el tipo de cam-
bio actual del peso, moneda de (éxico, respecto del dolar
moneda americana.
6.- La adopcion del plan expuesto permitiria al Gobier-
no de México devolver en poco tiempo su uso monetario ante-
rior B unas Oz. 58.000,000 de plata, que es todo lo que por
ahora podría absorber la circulacion propiamente dicha, pues
representa signos de cambio por valor de unos $ 235.000,000,
en 188 especies correspondientes, 2 Bea en nonedas de cin-
cuenta centavos y un peso y en certificados de cinco pesos.
Además, con el complemento de la operacion de venta de pla-
ta que despues se menciona, dicho plan pondria al Banco de
Mexico en condiciones de incluir en su Reserva Cambiaria 81-
rededor de Oz. 35.000,000.
7.- La indole misma de las medidas anteriores y de las
destinadas a completarlas exige una mas solida Reserva Cam-
biaria, o lo que es igual un reajuste de las proporciones
que actualmente guardan entre si el OTO y 188 divisas libres
de gravamenes, por una parte, y por otra la plata amonedada
o en barras pertenecientes a dicha Reserva, mediante la ven-
ta de 1a plata sobrante. Sin esta últime medida, adents,
resultaria inconveniente para el Banco intenter el retiro,
para su ulterior remonetización, de las ciezas antiguas de
plata que todavia se encuentran en circulación.
8.- Esas son las razones por las cuales el Gobierno de
México pretende vender unas Oz. 60.000,000 de plata, en for-
ma que lesione lo menos posible la situación del mercado
respectivo y los arreglos y medidas destinados a regularlo
y sostenerlo, Oree por otra parte dicho Gobierno que 18
reorganización del sistema monetario de México, conforme e
las ideas arriba consignadas, no dejara de producir una in-
fluencia benefica en las perspectivas de estabilizacion, y
aun de recuperación por 10 menos parcial, de ese mercado.
9,- La Balanza de Pagos de México suele arrojar fuer-
tes saldos desfavorables, sobre todo en epocas de crisis,
debido tanto a 1a indole y direccion de Bu comercio como 8.
su posicion como país deudor. Eso impone la necesidad de
una solida Reserva Camciaria y obliga a constituirla de no-
do que en todo tiempo pueda el Banco Central realizar sin
perdida apreciable una parte importante de los recursos de
dicha Reserva, Para conseguir este ultimo resultado, y da-
da la situacion actual del mercado de la plata, seria indis-
pensable limitar mucho las compras de ese metal por el Ban-
00 de Néxico, a menos que el mismo dis pusiera de un fondo
destinado
147
Embajada DE MEXICO
-3-
destinado a absorber las perdidas ocasionadas por el ajus-
te de su Reserva Cambiaria a las proporciones establecidas
por la ley entre sus recursos en oro y sus existencias en
plata, en el caso de un fuerte drenaje cambiario.
10.- E1 anterior es el motivo por el cual la aplica-
ción del plan expuesto arriba exige la venta de la plata
sobrante a. un precio capaz de proporcionar al Gobierno de
Mexico los medios necesarios para constituir dicho fondo
de prevision, y tal Gobierno espera obtener un precio sensi-
blemente superior a los que hoy prevalecen en el merçado in-
ternacional, tanto en esa virtud como en consideracion a la
mejoria que no pueden menos de producir en las condiciones
de dicho mercado las medidas previstas en aquel plan.
May 7, 1936.
148
Shortly after 5 P.M. the Secretary and Mr. Upham joined a
conference in the office of Senator Harrison, Room 217, Senate
Office Building. Others present were Senator Harrison, L.H. Parker,
Chief of Staff of the Joint Committee on Internal Revenue taxation,
Guy T. Helvering, Commissioner of Internal Revenue, Herman 011phant,
General Counsel and George C. Haas, Director of Research and Statis-
tics.
Senator Harrison explained that the last few days of the public
hearings on the Revenue Act of 1936, closed today, had produced
effective testimony against the House B111 and that many members
of the committee were insisting upon definite modification of the
proposed tax on undistributed earnings of corporations. He feared
that it would be next to impossible to get the House Bill through
the Senate Finance Committee. He expressed a wish to keep control
of the situation in his own hands and in the hands of the Adminis-
tration by being prepared to offer an acceptable compromise rather
than losing control of the situation to others of the committee
through uncompromising insistance on the House Bill. He was of the
opinion that it might be profitable to investigate the possibilities
of keeping a flat rate tax on corporation income as at present, thus
assuring the collection of a substantial amount of revenue and super-
imposing upon it a graduated or flat tax on undistributed earnings.
The figures he used were a 15% flat tax and a 15% super tax. Senator
Connally is proposing a 121% flat tax and a 121% super tax. Others
have an idea of a graduated super tax on undistributed earnings.
Senator Harrison is of the opinion that such a plan would keep
the principle of the President's proposal without running the risks
149
to the revenue and to the corporations which are involved in the
House B111.
Commissioner Helvering seemed willing to give consideration
to the compromise bill.
Mr. Parker was of the opinion that there was some advantages
to taking the President's proposal for a tax on undistributed
earnings on corporations in "two bites", and expressed the viewpoint
that there are a great many uncertainties about the present bill
which must remain uncertainties and cannot be defini tely forecast.
Mr. Haus agreed that the compromise proposal would produce
revenue.
Mr. Oliphant argued against abandoning the tax on undistributed
earnings and reiterated his position that the area of taxation which
should be exploited is the income of corporations which are owned
by persons who would have to pay a personal income tax in the high
bracket on such corporate earnings if they were distributed. He
referred to the present holding companies and incorporated pocket-
books and to the fact that the Pecora investigation and others had
brought to the notice of the country that a great many exceedingly
rich men paid no income tax and give no support to the Government.
As he put it, the pending bill does not increase taxes; it stops
tax avoidance. Many of the small taxpayers will pay less taxes and
many corporations will pay less taxes or nothing at all.
Mr. Oliphant also referred to the propaganda which plays up a
large percentage of tax under the House bill to the retained portion
of earnings. He demonstrated that even greater percentages of tax
to retained earnings exist under the present law.
Mr. Oliphant was further of the opinion that the President and
Regraded Unclassified
150
the party are now so committed to a tax on tax avoiders through
a forced distribution of corporation earnings that to abandon it
at this stage would give political opponents an opportunity to
denounce and ridicule the President for having abandoned a major
principle of merit.
Senator Harrison said that he was not worried about the political
aspect of that and remarked that he could use on the floor of the
Senate, in support of the modified plan, the identical arguments used
by the President in favor of the proposal embodied in the House Bill.
Mr. Morgenthau excused himself from the conference after half
an hour stating that hewas too exhausted physically to be able to
contribute much to the discussion, but expressing his readiness
to discuss the matter further at et later time and accompany Senator
Harrison to the White House for a decision. (Mr. Morgenthau later
stated to the Treasury group that he had been unwilling to indicate
by "even the flicker of an eye lash" his reaction to the Harrison
suggestion prior to further discussion with the Treasury group and
with the White House. It was for that reason that he prefered to
postpone his discussion of the matter until later).
The rest of the group continued the discussion for some time.
Senator Harrison expressed doubts about the amounts that would
be collected under the windfall tax.
Senator Harrison said that Secretary Wallace would appear before
the Committee on Monday.
Senator Harrison asked for Treasury estimates on revisions of
the House Bill. He suggested that the testimony of certain witnesses,
particularly Mr. Ballantine, Mr. Sargent and Mr. May be reviewed by
the Treasury for the presentation of answering arguments in the
Executive Sessions of the Committee which begin on Monday, May 11th.
Regraded
Return to Room 285
151
May 7. 1938
My dear Senator:
Yesterday, part of the statement which I
made before your Committee on April 30 was
challenged. The particular part of the state-
ment was the following:
"The Department has also esti-
mated that under the present law
more than four and one-half billion
dollars of corporation income in
the calendar year 1930 will be
withheld from stockholders and that
if this income were fully distri-
buted to the individual owners of
the stock represented in these cor-
porations, the resultant yield in
additional individual income taxes
would be about one billion three
hundred millions."
I can see that the phrase "withheld from
stockholders" was possibly open to misunderstand-
ing inasmuch as the figure $1,300,000,000 was
arrived at after we had deducted from the
$4,500,000,000 an amount equal to the existing
corporation taxes.
what I have just said about a possible ambiguity
in the use: of this term relates to one of my argu-
ments on the merits of the proposed corporate tax,
not at all to my statement of the Treasury's estimate
of what this tax would yield. That estimate 1s
623 million dollars additional revenue.
Sincerely yours,
secretary of the Treasury.
Honorable Pat Harrison,
Chairman, Senate Finance Committee.
152
DRAFT
(first)
My dear Senator:
Yestergey, part of my statement which I gave before
your Committee on April 30 was challenged. The particular
statement was the following:
"The Department has also estimated that
under the present law more than four and one-
half billion dollars of corporation income in
the calendar year 1936 will be withheld from
stockholders and that if this income were fully
distributed to the individual owners of the
stock represented in these corporations, the
resultant yield in additional individual income
taxes would be about one billion three hundred
millions.'
The statement phras "willabe-withheld from stockholders" I can
see was possibly open to misunderstanding inasmuch as the
figure $1,300,000,000 was arrived at after we had deducted
from the $4,500,000,000 the present corporation income tax
which amounts to $1,100,000,000.
I believe that this will clear up any possible misunder-
standing as to the use of the term "withhold from stockholders."
Sincerely yours,
Regraded Unclassified
153
What I have just said about & possible ambiguity
in the term I used in my statement to your Committee
relates to 9thley one of my arguments on the merits of the
proposed corporate tax, not at all to my statement of the
Treasury's estimate of what this tax would yeald. That
estimate is 623 million dollars additional revenue,
First
154
DRAFT
My dear Senator; Harreson the
made
Yestergay, part of statement which I gave before
your Committee on April 4 30 was challenged. The ^ particular hart
the
statement was the following:
"The Department has also estimated that
under the present law more than four and one-
half billion dollars of corporation income in
the calendar year 1936 will be withheld from
stockholders and that if this income were fully
distributed to the individual owners of the
stock represented in these corporations, the
resultant yield in additional individual income
taxes would be about one billion three hundred
millions.
Ican
that Where
"
se
The statement "will be withheld from stockholders" I can
N A
see was possibly open to misunderstanding inasmuch as the
figure $1,300,000,000 was arrived at after we had deducted
from the $4,500,000,000 the present corpor tion income tax
which amounts to $1,100,000,000.
I believe that this will clear up any possible misunder-
standing as to the use of the term "withheld from stockholders."
Sincerely yours,
I
& of 10,
v
f.
10
an ant
155
this
What I have just said about a possible ambiguity
in the term R used in my statement to your Committee
in of the use
relates to only one of my arguments on the merits of the
proposed corporate tax, not at all to my statement of the
Treasury's estimate of what this tax would yield. That
estimate is 623 million dollars additional revenue.
156
May 7, 1936
PRESS CONFERENCE
Q.
Mr. Secretary, there are reports that the Treasury
plans to utilize the silver profits for payment of some of
this bonus. Wall Street is talking about it.
A.
They are always right! No; you will Just have to
charge that off to another Wall Street rumor, I guess.
Nothing in it.
Q.
Does it look like you are going to get the job done
by the scheduled date?
A.
Yes, I am quite sure everything will go out on time.
I have seen the figures on what the lag 16 and each week
we are getting nearer and nearer up to date with the number
of names which are furnished us by General Hines.
&
Will you make any comment on Mr. May's charge that
the Treasury has underestimated?
A.
There 1s a letter in preparation which I am sending
up to Senator Harrison today and it ought to be up there
by noon and Senator Harrison said he would give it out up
there.
a.
Off the record, can you give us a general idea, with-
out using it until he gets it out?
A.
I think, off the record, he did not read all of Mr.
Helvering's statement. He took the part which he liked
best.
Q.
That's in reference to the $4,500,000,000?
A.
Yes. And my figures on the revenue and Mr. Helver-
ing's check. There is no difference.
Q. whether or not there are misstatements?
How about the underestimates, without regard to
A. we estimate our revenue we estimate very closely on the
We don't do that. All we have ever done 1s, when
conservative side. Our figures over the last two years
Regraded
Unclassified
157
-2-
prove that our estimates have been as near correct as any
human being can make them and -- this is all off the record -
I have never faked any figures since I have been here and
you boys know that I am not going to fake them to get a tax
bill or anything else.
&
On this recovery. That was not counted in.
A.
No, we took in recovery. They think we have nd al-
lowed for business recovery, but we have, absolutely, and
our estimates have been within one percent of being right.
Let's be practical -- when we made this estimate, last De-
cember or last November, no one could guess that Congress
would throw this thing out and no one knew we would have
the bonus and I sat back and looked into the crystal and
knew they would be thrown out. We have to go on the as-
sumption that we faked them when we made them up last Decem-
ber, which is perfectly cock-eyed. The figures are just as
correct as anybody could make them. After all, the one
thing here is we have to keep the confidence of the public
and when the Treasury saye something they mean what they say
and in order to get a tax bill or anything else I would not
fake any figures. We can make honest mistakes. We all
make mistakes. Certainly Mr. Mills had to go back on the
Hill three times to correct his figures. I have no doubt
his mistakes were honest ones, but he had to go back three
times, and Mr. Mellon, I think, undershot the mark one year;
was off 50%. I am not saying he did it for political
reasons. I am saying somebody made a mistake. We have
been lucky and our figures are extremely accurate, but don't
forget they were made last December.
bill Q. will raise more money than existing law?
Does it still stand that the Treasury feels the tax
A. get the letter. If Mr. May had read all of Mr. Helvering's
It still stands. Still off the record -- you will
statement through, he would have seen that his statement and
mine jibe.
Q.
Do you still expect this year's deficit to be
$5,786,000,000?
A. of the Treasury to make me change that figure.
Nothing has been brought to my attention, in or out
Q.
That letter isn't up there yet?
Regraded Unclassified
158
-3-
A.
No, it is not finished and it will be 12 or 1 o'clook
before it goes up there.
Q.
Would it not be necessary to increase the rate of ex-
penditure -- that 1s, leaving the bonus out of consideration
entirely -- to almost double the rate of other monthly ex-
penditures to reach such a deficit figure?
A.
I have not any notes here, but as I explained to Bob,
the other day, the difference between these estimates is --
the bonus goes on the books of the Treasury as a charge. It
does not mean all 2,300,000,000 are going to be cashed, but
once they leave our possession they become a charge ...
ci
But I mean other expenditures. General and recovery
expenditures at the present monthly rate, if continued during
the next two months, would make for & deficit considerably
smaller, would it not, than your estimates of last week?
A.
Not according to the people in the Treasury who are
responsible for those figures and who have been following
them every day. These men have been here since I have
been here. I have never once given out any fake figures
in the Treasury to try to influence any legislation or po-
litical situation. I have not done it once and the men
who have been here know it is SO. I have never intention-
ally given out any wrong figures. In the first place, it
would be most stupid thing I could do and, without trying
to make a stump speech, the reason the bond market has gone
up and our credit has gone up 16 that when I make a statement
on figures people who put their money in Government bonds
have confidence in the Treasury. We all make mistakes,
but 80 far I haven't. The reason the bond market 1s BO
healthy is that the figures that have come out since I have
been here have been correct and not for some ulterior motive.
Q. $6,000,000,000 and if you were going to have a deficit, in-
On the first of May the total expenditures were about
cluding a deficit as large as $5,600,000,000, you would have
to spend in addition to the bonus something like $1,000,000,000
a month if your revenue estimates are correct.
A. in spending is Agriculture where they have not spend theirs
You are getting down to spending. The big difference
on AAA. I don't know when Wallace will suddenly open up and
pay, but the shortage 1s in AAA, but if Wallace would suddenly
159
-4-
pays the money to farmers on past contracts -- not future --
that thing could Jump to within that figure. The amount
that Wallace has paid on all AAA contracts is almost nil
and that's where the difference 18 and I can't tell and no-
body else that Wallace may pay the checks tomorrow. I don't
think he has spent over 30 or 40 millions. That's where the
difference is. Wallace may decide that he will pay that
money tomorrow. I think the estimate was around $500,000,000
on all propositions and he is behind that much in his payments.
That is the explanation and I did not want to say it because
it brings in Wallace, but we are talking here among ourselves.
Does that explain it?
Mr. Gaston: The boys are to get it for themselves and from
Wallace's card records and it 18 not to come from you.
HM,Jr.: My guess is that less than $50,000,000 has gone out.
I don't know what I have said on the record and what
I haven't. You have gotten under my skin & little -- at
least you haven't, but Mr. May has. But I think everything
I have said up to now is off the record until you get the
letter. It 18 getting down to my integrity and I value
that rather highly and I won't let Mr. Mary or anybody else
besmirch it.
Q.
Would you permit the earmarking of gold in New York
for English account for the same purposes as China gold 16
earmarked?
A.
I am sorry, I don't wish to answer that.
d.
Are you ready to tell us anything more about the
Chinese?
A.
No. But our progress is accelerating. Is that a
good word?
&
Yes.
When we get this letter from Senator Harrison, could
we make this background?
A.
What do you think, Herbert?
Mr. Gaston: I think it will all be in the letter -- all that
is necessary.
Regraded
160
-5-
Q.
Just some personal touches?
A.
That's all right. I feel very keenly about it. I
don't mind your using it for background. If anybody could
point to any group of figures I have given out since I have
been here that have not been on the "up and up", I would
like to know about 1t.
Q.
Anything on the international money situation today?
A.
No. The situation is still a nervous one.
&
Is there any particular official reason why there should
only be two New York banks very actively in the market?
A.
No. That's purely up to them. It is a private com-
mercial transaction and any New York bank can or cannot do it,
as they wish.
d
One in the past has been very closely identified with
the activities of the Federal Reserve Bank.
A. they want to invest in gold and bring it over and they may not,
It is purely voluntary on their part and they may think
but it's purely voluntary. They make their own decisions
without any guidance or hints from us.
Q.
Is Senator Harrison getting more than one copy of this
letter?
A.
Yes, he asked me to send up enough copies.
Q.
Would you care to say that the British are involved
in this Chinese thing?
A.
The Chinese Government sent these people over to see
the United States Treasury.
The reason I asked 18 the British have had a financial
Q. mission out there for sometime and since the Chinese work
pretty closely with the United States and England I thought
it reasonable they might be connected here.
A. States Treasury. I hear the Japanese have some interest in
I again say, the Chinese came over to see the United
Regraded Unclassified
161
-6-
China, too!
&
You did not hear that directly from the Japanese who
came in to see you, did you?
A.
Listen! Go on! No; this is a Chinese-United States
situation; just between the two Governments; nobody else is
in on it.
o0o-o0o
Regraded Unclassified
May 8, 1936
162
h
dear Senator:
Senator King requested from the Department
estimates of the yield of certain tax proposals,
and I assume it is appropriate that I transmit
them through the Chairman of the Committee.
They are attached.
Very truly yours,
Secretary.
Homerable Pat Harrison,
Chairman, Senate Committee on Finance,
United States Senate
Inclesure
Mis 5/8/36
Regraded Unclassified
163
Estimated increase in revenue from income taxes under Senator Eing's
proposals, as compared with estimated revenue under the Revenue Act
of 1935, based on calendar year 1936 incomes.
I Increase
I
in
I revenue
: (In millions
10f dollare)
Corporate income tax:
Rates graduated from 15 percent to
18 percent applicable to the same net
income classes as under the Revenue Act
of 1935
208
Individual income tax:
Normal tax rate increased to 6 percent;
personal exemptions reduced to $800 for
single returns and $2,000 for joint 70-
turns; surtax rates increased in surtax
net income classes below $62,000 2/
320
Total increase in revenue
528
2/
Corporate tax schedule - upon net incomes not in excess of $2,000,
15 percent; in excess of $2,000 and not in excess of $15,000,
16 percent; in excess of $15,000 and not in excess of $40,000,
17 percent: in excess of $40,000, 18 percent.
Surtax rates begin at 6 percent on surtex net incomes in excess
of $4,000, are graduated more steeply in the surtax net income
brackets up to $62,000 than under the Revenue Act of 1935, and
remain the same on surtax net incomes above that amount reaching
a maximum rate of 75 percent on surtex not incomes in exesse of
$5,000,000.
5/6/36 GAill SenathKing
Regraded Unclassified
164
By deer Senators
Senator King requested from the Department
estimates of the yield of certain tax proposals,
and I assume it is appropriate that I transmit
them through the Chairman of the Committee.
They are attached.
Very truly yours,
Secretary.
Homorable Pat Herrison,
Chairman, Senate Committee on Finance,
United States Senate
Enclosure
GAT
WO
HOIS 5/8/36
Regraded
165
the dear Senator:
Senator King requested from the Department
estimates of the yield of certain tax proposals,
and I assume it is appropriate that I transmit
them through the Chairman of the Committee.
They are attached.
Very truly yours,
Secretary.
Homerable Pat Harrison,
Chairman, Senate Committee on Finance,
United States Senate
Inclesure
-
Miss 5/8/36
Regraded Unclassit
be released for Monday morning papers -
Montay, May 11th, 1936.
166
May 8, 1936.
anorable Henry Morganthau, Jr.,
Boretary of the Treasury,
ashington, D. Ce
dear Mr. Secretary:
It has been stated that many of our financially strong corporations,
specially those of substantial size, will pay little or no taxes to the
ideral Treasury if the pending bill is passed, I am checking the accuracy
these statements, and I am likewise interested in the opportunities that
be afforded such corporations by the bill to avoid the payment of taxes.
We must guard carefully against giving these large corporations B.
reater advantage and perhops a stranglehold over their present smaller oom-
Retitors. Frankly, I am concerned about the application of the proposed tax
blicies to those corporations which now have large surpluses and a strong
ash or credit position.
We must make certain that legislation does not prevent the healthy
rowth and expansion of our smaller businesses by imposing a penalty upon
hem if their financial position and their business opportunities do not per-
It the payment in dividends of substantially all their profits. I want your
ssistance in appraising the situation.
I have selected from Moody's Manual e few of the largest corporations,
1th a view to determining the rate of tox which would be imposed upon them
the pending bill should be ennoted. The only statistics I have available
re for 1934. I should appreciate it very much if you would cheok the list
give you and let no have a similar list for 1935, if statistics are avail-
Able to you.
A FEW OF THE CORPORATIONS WHICH WOULD
PAY NO TAX, BASED ON 1934 RETURNS.
(Now Pay 15%).
Net Income
Dividends
lompany
After Tax
Paid Out,
American Tel. & Tel.
$121,748,729
$167,960,475
Memerican Tobaoco Co.
24,084,280
26,590,858
ther.Smelting & Refining
7,583,202
7,875,000
Ileneral Electric Co.
19,726,044
19,881,453
Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co.
4,287,684
4,508,907
International Harvester
3,948,637
8,264,040
Watl. Biscuit Co.
11,597.573
19,939.342
Natl. Dairy Products Co.
6,551,930
8,197,573
Ohio 011 Co.
5,411,924
6,294,728
R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Co.
21,536,894
30,000,000
Texas Company
5,545,205
9,348,820
The above list of financially strong companies that can completely
avoid taxation can be greatly expanded.
Regraded Unclassified
2
CORPORATIONS WHICH WOULD
1E7
PAY LESS THAN 5 PER CENT:
Net Income
Dividends
Tax under
After Tax
Paid Out.
New Bill.
apany
Reduction
4,145,416
3,737,142
2.82%
lied Chemical & Dye Corp.
17,548,355
15,703,374
3.00
rn products Refining Co+
9,702,696
9,294.750
1.20
rtis Publishing Co.
5,906,326
5,400,000
2.45
I. dupont
46,701,465
40,788,914
3.50
restone Tire & Rubber
4,254,656
3,572,193
4.00
neral Foods
11,143,876
9,452.614
4.40
leat Western Sugar
5,761,727
5,370,000
1455
sperial Oil Co.
14,101,561
13,415,169
1.40
ggott & Myers Tob. Co.
20,086,691
17,200,227
4.16
rke, Davis & Co.
8,719,368
8,232,480
1.50
nnsylvania Railroad Co.
13,377,899
13,214,946
.30
S. Smelting & Refining
6,052,968
6,000,129
.25
CORPORATIONS WHICH WOULD PAY
LESS THAN 10 PER CENT
merioan Can Co.
19,522,945
15,256,321
6.63%
hmour and Co. (Del)
8,235,835
5,899,830
8.84
astman Kodak Co.
14,503,247
10,499,086
8.54
oneral Motors
94,769,131
73,621,710
6.78
reat As & P. Tea Co.
20,478,190
16,430,796
5.72
aternational Shoe Co.
8,967,024
6,671,742
7.78
- C. Penny Company
16,147,315
11,307,108
9.37
hillips Petroleum Co.
5,757.309
4,153,008
8.30
roctor & Gamble
14,370,067
10,512,866
8.30
econy-Vacuum Oil Co.
24,121,297
18,652,561
6.90
tand.011 Co. (Calif.)
18,347,807
13,069,479
8.95
15,371,229
5.63
tandard 011 Co. (Ind.)
18,949,680
tandard 011 Co. (N-J.)
67,882,271
54,204,193
6.08
exas Gulf Sulphur Co.
6,958,476
5,730,000
5.22
Inited Fruit Co.
12,049,300
8,717,985
8.60
W. Woolworth Co.
32,142,363
23,288,676
8.54
I also ask that you furnish me with the names of all corporations which,
for the last year for which the statistics are available, had a net income, be-
fore Federal taxes, of more than $1,000,000, and, based upon the actual distri-
butions for the year, will receive a tax reduction of fifty per cent or more
under the pending bill.
You will appreciate that the fundamental purpose of my inquiry involves
not only competitivo advantages to the strong corporations, but the restraints
of heavy taxes upon small and medium sized enterprises upon which we must de-
pend 80 largely for re-employment of labor, and for healthy business growth.
It is unnecessary for me to add that the data must be available prompt-
ly if it is to serve a useful purpose. I shall apreciate very much your
assistance and oooperation.
Cordially yours,
(Signed)
HARRY F. BYRD
Regraded Unclassified
1S8
May S, 1938
HM,Jr. had the following meeting with him in his office
today: Upham, Hase, Bell, Taylor, Geston and Oliphant.
The Secretary said, "I have two suggestions to make.
(1) This fellow May ranks &B B. No. 1 accountant and has
great standing and reputation among business people, and
I think it would be 8 very smart move if we could get some-
one of equal standing to check the Treasury's estimates and
tell us whether we are correct. Heas' reaction was, "It
18 not en accountant's job. It is not in his field. I
could lose him if I wanted to." HM, then asked him,
"Well, who would have?" And Haas replied, "It happens to
be my responsibility and I am leaving myself out of it, but
as I see the whole thing, they must attack something and
they are attacking the estimates. It is a sign of weakness
to have somebody come in a. recheck our figures. Estimates
can't be checked. The thing to do is to sit tight.
HM,Jr. inquired of Heas, "So you rely entirely on McLeod?"
and Heas answered, "No. We have others who go over his
figures." HM,Jr. reminded Heas that the same mistake WSB
made in the President's speech and, he said, "You had two
months to find that out, but you didn't."
Turning to Bell, the Secretary said, "You have the
background of the Treasury. How would you feel if I brought
somebody down? Inasmuch as our figures have been questioned,
I want them double checked and analyzed." Bell's reply was,
"I do not think it 1e B. sign of weakness to ask somebody from
the outside to recheck our figures. The trouble 18 to get
someone who 1s fair and who afterwards would not go out and
seek a lot of publicity.' In answer to that, HM,Jr. said,
"I have had people in to talk to me from time to time and no
one knew that they were down here. On the question of gold
devaluation, I had Parker Gilbert down here. He has never
told a living soul that I know of."
Continuing, HM,Jr. said, "I don't want to answer May
publicly. I will ask the man to come down with the dis-
tinot understanding that I may or may not use his figures,
but I want him to come down in 3. confidential capacity, in
the same relationship that exists between a doctor and 8.
patient." Hass remarked, "on! On that basis, that's dif-
ferent. Then I am in agreement. But I still don't think
you ought to get an accountant." Bell remarked that "May 1s
an actuary, an accountant and an economist."
Regraded Unclassified
1S9
-2-
Speaking to the whole group, HM, Jr. said, "Well, I
wish tnat you would all think about it and bring in some
suggestions and meet again at 12 o'clock. I would say
that for my own satisfaction, I want to have these figures
rechecked; that if we have slipped, I want to say SO. I
am big enough to say 60, if you don't mind my saying so.
After reading my statement in the papers this morning, I am
perfectly satisfied. It was the clean-cut, manly thing
to do."
He said to the group, "Tne second suggestion that I
have to make is that I mentioned the names of Professor Hague
of Columbia, to the President and he sold 'thumbs down'. My
1dea was to nave this man check what we are doing on the
policy of the bill. I am not worried about the bill draft,
but I want a fresh mind on the policy." Oliphent said that
ne did not know Professor Hague.
HM, Jr. again spoke to the group or the suggestion that
it mignt be well to keep the flat rate on corporation income,
and in tnis way assure the collection of B substantial amount
of revenue, and then and 60 that flat tax 8 graduated or
enother flat tax on undistributed earnings. The figures
suggested were a 10% Ilat tax and 8 10% supertex. He said,
"By getting all this revenue from the ricn corporations we
could possibly reduce the tax for the small man who has an
income of $2500." Olipnant said, "If we change the bill now,
we will have no bill, to which HM, Jr. said, "Suppose we do
get up against B. stone wall. Then what? I, therefore,
suggest that we have an alternative bill in our vest pocket.'
Haas ned une following to say: "Our estimates have
been made on the assumption that all this income would be
subject 60 Lax, If it leaks through this person you will
bring down, then you will not get the revenue." Oliphant
said, "I worked on the theory that Hase' estimates were
correct. I have every confidence in une basis on which
McLeod made nis estimates. If any of you know of any loop-
holes, I wish you would talk about them." Hass added, "If
there are any loopnoles, I can't tske the responsibility."
HM, Jr. wanted to know if Olipnant took une responsibility
of the loopnoles, and Olipnant answered, "Yes, I do." Upham
stated, "The people on the Hill are not as confident that tne
leaks have been filled BE Mr. Oliphant 18."
HM, Jr. then said to the group, "Well, I tnink this nas
Regraded Unclassified
170
-2-
been a good meeting. First, we are trying to get a man like
May to advise the Treasury in a confidential capacity on the
mathematical end and, second, we are trying to get an outside
person, like Magill, who is not in private practice to get nis
views on the policy. If I do this, nobody can ever say that
the Treasury left a stone unturned to see that this bill will
do waat we say it will do."
Gaston offered the following suggestion: "What would you
think of the suggestion tnat we send up our estimates on the
Hill and say that this 18 how we arrived at our figures."
Haas' reaction was, "I think we first ougnt to get the account-
ant, whom you are bringing down, to check our estimates and
then if they are sweet, send tnem up." HM, Jr. thoroughly
agreed with Haas.
Regraded Unclassified
171
May 8, 1936
At 12 o'clock today, Oliphant, Upham, Taylor, Gaston,
Bell and Haae met with the Secretary.
HM, Jr. said, "Someone has suggested Professor Mills
of Columbia. Oliphant said he did not know who he was
and Heas said he did not think well of him. The Secre-
tary asked Oliphant to check up on Professor Mills and
said, "I understand that Professor Mills has written E.
book on sources of income and I had him in mind to advise
us on the policy of the bill." Oliphant's comment W&B,
"I do not know of anyone better than Viner," but HM,Jr.
disagreed, saying "No, not on this thing."
Continuing, the Secretary said, "A Mr. Niven, of Touche,
Niven & Co., has been suggested 88 an accountant and Mr.
Staub, of Lyhand, Rose and Montgomery." Taylor said, "I
would like to suggest the name of Arthur Anderson as the
accountant. He 18 outstanding in every way." Upnam
thoroughly agreed with Taylor and Mrs. Klotz reminded HM, Jr.
that Earle Bailie, in his telephone conversation with the
Secretary this morning, had mentioned the name of Anderson.
The Secretary immediately put in a long distance call for
Arthur Anderson, but was unable to get him before he left
the office at one o'clock.
At this meeting, Mr. Taylor suggested an alternate
plan and Olipnant asked him to make copies available to
the group and they would look into it.
Regraded Unclassified
172
In elaboration of the suggestion which I made at the meeting held
in your office on Friday, May 8, 1936, I am listing below certain modifi-
cations which might be made in the proposed tax bill:
1. Differentiate between "business income" and income from
"investments".
2. Place "business" whether conducted by individual, partm rship
or corporation on same tax base.
3. Retain principle of graduated rates for business income, based
on ability to pay. Give favorable treatment to or exempt "business
income" in low brackets.
4. Place "investment income" whether received by individual,
partnership or corporation on same tax base, if retained.
5. Tax investment income paid to foreign individuals at flat
rate, tax to be withheld at source. Tax investment income paid to
foreign corporations at higher flat rate, tax to be withheld at source.
6. Place banks, insurance companies, bona fide investment trusts
and other financial institutions which obviously must depend on income
from investments in special category when considering income from
investments.
7. Exempt investment income from wholly owned subsidiaries
operating in the same "business" classification from "investment income"
graduated tax but include in "business" earnings of parent company.
8. Possibly place public utility and railroad investment income
from controlled but not wholly owned subsidiaries or affiliates in
a special category.
Regraded Unclassifi ed
- 2 -
173
As you know, my only purpose in suggesting these modifications is
in order to provide some secondary plan if the extant proposals encounter
insurmountable difficulties. You will notice that most of the basic
principles are retained but their application is altered.
My impression is that the gamble on the amount of revenue is reduced
and that we would be dealing with fewer unknown factors.
I particularly direct your attention to the fact that profits from
business if retained for reserves must either be invested in tax-exempt
securities, or the income from taxable securities must be distributed to
stockholders, if high surtax rates are to be avoided. The effect of
this provision on personal holding companies and on the investment by
business corporations in speculative securities unrelated to their own
business is obvious, and means legitimate reserves will be invested in
short-term Government's or other tax-exempt securities. This is certainly
sound practice, as in the past far too many corporations have dissipated
earnings as EL result of ill-advised investments in speculative market
securities with a consequent loss to the stockholders as well as loss of
revenue to the government.
The suggested treatment for foreign individual and corporate holders
might well be considered without reference to the other suggestions as it
meets in part the problem of personal holding companies incorporated in
Canada and elsewhere.
I believe that the differentiations between business income and
investment income will stimulate private productive enterprise, and that a
slight discrimination in favor of unincorporated individual enterprises is
not only justified but a step to be encouraged.
Regraded Inclassified
NEW YORK TIMES - May 8, 1916.
174
SENATE BACKERS WAVER
Childe The séles in the tower and
middle brackets, and a higher MID:
porate Income levy.
Favor $420,000,000 Nore Tield
ON ROOSEVELT TAX PLAN;
While all of these developmente
indicated nothing GOFF than possi-
life future atops, members of the
committee Talt, generally, that (f
bey could find 6. tax that would
HARD FIGHT IN PROSPECT
yield the $420,000,000 to parmanent
anoual now revenue sought by the
President the undustributed profits
NEW PROPOSALS IN MIND
Benater Cousens, Independent Re-
tax might be scrapped -- readom
publican, who at the etact had
mended by every representative of
been counted upon to favor the bill,
business who has appeared at the
was reported to have changed bis
hearings
position in light of the testimony
The only qualification to such .
of the last three days. Sepator Con-
prediction was the feeling that If
Connally Maps Tentative
nally, until today a friend of the
the administration made & deter-
undistributed corporate profits tax
mined right for the President's
plan It might win in the long run,
Plan, Basing It on
embodied in the House bill, began
particularly since the House has
working in earnest on a plan of his
adopted the plan by a. majority of
own.
nearly three to one.
Present Law.
Estimates on Other Plans Sought
There was no definite Indication,
however, as to what the adminis-
The tentative proposal of Senator
tration's attitude would be in case
Connally, who, incidentally, has
the program were so modified,
DEFENSE BY MORGENTHAU
written more amendments into
Some Senators said they baid It
revenue bills during the last four
on good authority that If & plan
were evolved which would promise
years that perhaps any other Sen- the desired additional revenue and
ator, involved retention of the pres- at the same time maintain a Yel-
Possible Ambiguity in Phrasing
an: corporate income tax and the tige of the proposed levy on undia-
superimposition of IL moderate levy
tributed
corporate
profits;
the
Does Not Alter Estimate of
on undisturbed profits along the
President would accept It gladly,
rather than hazard a long session-
Yield, He Replies.
main lines suggested in an editorial and fight with Congrees in an elec-
in This New YORK TIMES of May 4. tion year,
Senator Connaily asked Treasury Morgenthau Writes to Barrison
experts
for
estimates
on
the
proba-
The only representations made to
ACCOUNTANTS ASSAIL BILL
ble additional revenue yield from
the
committee
by
the
Treasury
such a combination, with a flat since it completed its testimony last
porate income tax rate of 124 per week, or the only answer to any of
cent and an undistributed profits
the attacks, was a letter addressed
Through V. H. Stempf They
surtax of 12% per cent. He ex-
to Chairman Harrison today by
Secretary Morgenthau in which he
Say Future of Medium-Sized
plained that this proposal was only replied to the assertions made yes-
tentative, and that he bad asked terday by George O. May, senior
Companies le Jeopardised.
the estimates only as & banks for partner of Price, Waterhouse & Co.,
further perfection of bis plan.
certified public accountants, that he
had uttered . "serious minstate-
"I believe, however," he said, ment" in his teatimony la support
By TURNES CATLEDGE
"that we can work out something of the House bill.
Special to the New Your Trues,
along this line."
Mr. Morgenthau had sald that
WASHINGTON, May 7.-A week
Meanwhile, Senstor King asked
"under the present low" $4,500,000,-
of constant bombardment by bust
for estimates on the full plan pro-
000 of corporate income would be
DONN and Industry against Presi-
withheld from stockholders during
posed by THE New York Truss, In-
the calender year of 1936, with #
dent Roosevelt's saw tax program cluding, first, retention of the oor-
resultant loss to the government of
apparently was beginning today to purate Income tax at a flat rate
about $1,500,000,000. A prerequialle
have effect upon the Senste Finance
of 15 per cent: second, Imposition
to this figure was the repeal of all
Committee, and Indications WEDE
existing corporation taxes whereby
of the full normal and surtex rates
developing fast that the administra-
corporations would not have to pay
on corporate dividends in the hands
about $1,100,000,000 la reventis to
tion will have the fight of the year
of stockbolders, and, third, an ad-
the government,
If It holde out for the plan. par-
ditional levy OD undistributed prof-
Mr. May asid this Goostitutes #
ticularly the proposed Degr enrpo-
its, starting at 4. per cent on the
"misstatement" because in estab
rate levy based solely on undia-
lishing the figure of $4,500,000,000
first 20 or 25 per cent of corporate
tributed profite.
Mr. Morgenthau had not stated
income withheld from distribution
that the $1,100,000,000, or practically
Of a. total of nearly 100 without
and at graduated tax of from 5 to 25
one-fourth of the amount, would
who appeared before the commit-
per cant on withholdinge in excess
accrue to the corporations Decause
bee, only the Treasury spokesman
of that percentage, with specific as-
of repeat of the present corpora
had thus far supported the pro-
Doe tax laws.
emptions from this levy for amounts
possis M enacted by the House, and
In reply, Mr. Morgenthau said
withheld for plant expansion and
there was & "possible ambiguity"
diamittes members who baretofore
bed boto regarded as invorable
replacements,
In the terms as be used (bem, but
Sensior King also asked for exti-
Instated that It, did not in any way
ware either dropping away or be
affact the Treasury's estimate of
glaning to water. of Innet in the
maces on . plan of bis own to PP
the probable yisld from the
attant of courting other plans of
dute the personal exemptions from in
texation.
the individual Income tax and in-
175
THE MORGENTHAU LETTER
the committee on Federal
seem toglest That the larger like
Necretary Morgenthan's letter to of the American Institute of Ae-
rate of drawback' the greater
Benater Harrison follows:
countants.
would be the Incentive to increased
"My dear Senator
Mr. Stempf avoided a. discussion distribution of dividends within
"Yesterday, part of the statement
of any of the social questions In-the limits of enued Reserval prece
which 1 made before your commit-
volved in the proposed new corpo-tico) resulting in . greater yield
Lee on April 30 was challenged, The
rate Tex: Be confined birgraff from the surlas en individual in
particular past of the watement
strictly to texation from as BIR comes."
was the following
counting view. In the connection
The department has also entl-
he clied OBA reason after another
Opposes Non-Residental Lavy
mated that under the present law
for abandoning the pending bill.
Paul P. Cahen of Niagara Falls,
more than $4,500,000,000 of con
He filed & memorandum with fbe.N, Y., representing F. N. Bort
poration Income in the calendar
committee setting forth In Company, Ltd.. of Butteio, and
year 1936 will be withheld from
the objections of the accountants. Toronto, and Butfalo Investors in
stockholders, and that If this to
"The committee (the accountants' Canadian Companies, appeared in
come were fully distributed to the
taxation committee) believes it o-opposition to the levy of 10 par cant
Individual owners of the stock rep-
sound to Jeopardise the future afjupon the Income of non-reaident
resented in these corporations, the
the great number of medium-sized
aliens from sources within the
resultant yield In additional Indi-
corporations which are struggling
United States as carried in the
vidual income taxes would be about
back to sound financial condition
House bill.
$1,300,000,000.'
by relieving corporations of the
Mr. Cohen warned that the pro-
"I can see that the phrase "with-
present tax on Income to the extent
posal would more (licely result in -
held from stockholders' WILLS pos-
distributed and substituting & of revenue than an Increase.
sibly open to misunderstanding in-
basis of taxation at high rates, He argued, too, that It. was basical-
nemuch as the figure $1,800,000,000
which must contain, inevitably. ly unfair to many small Canadian
was arrived at after we had des
new field of accounting difficulties Investors in American securities.
ducted from the $4,500,000,000 an
and complexities of corporate fi- He asked that the levy be reduced
amount equal to the existing cor-
nance," the memorandum said.
to 5 per cent on Canadian real-
poration taxes,
Many details were cited of actual dente.
What I have just said about a
difficulties in computing taxes un- "If the lax Imposed by the Unit-
possible ambiguity in the use of
der the proposed new law. It was ed States upon dividends and in
this term relates to one of my argu-
"quite evident from an examina terest received by Canadians from
ments on the merits or the proposed
Lion of the provisions of the pro their American investments is not
corporate tax, not at all to my
posed law that simplification has fixed at . rate la excess of 5 per
statement of the Treasury's eati-
not been attained or even ap cent, It la out unlikely that the pres.
mate of what this tax would yield.
proached."
ent provision of the Canadian law
That estimate is $623,000,000 addi-
Would Retain Present Pollcy
highly favorable to American in-
tional revenue,
vestors and to the United States
"Sincerely yours.
The recommendations presented
Treasury. will continue unchanged
"HENRY MORGENTHAU. JR.,
by Mr. Stempf Included:
-at least for the present." he said,
"Secretary of the Treasury."
Retention of the present corpo-
"Tbe tax that the United States
rate income tax at higher rates itwould collect upon the $58,000,000
Manufacturers Oppose Bill
received by Canadians from their
The business attack against the
necessary. A reduction in parsonal exemp-Investments here would then just
corporate profile tax was continued
tions to the personal income tax in about equal the tax imposed by
today by the National Association
order to broaden the base, of that Canada upon the presently taxable
of Manufacturers. Noel Sargent,
the same result be obtained by une-fourth of the $220,000,000 re-
economist, and James A. Emery,
irrecoverable withholding at the colved by American investare from
general counsel of the Manufactur-
source in respect of fixed or deter-Canadian sources.
ers Association, repeated substan-
minable Income of the character
"If, bowever, the United States
Hally the testimony given by the
required Lion returns to be under included the existing in law. terest and dividends received by
Informa-imposes
a.
10
per
cant
las
upon
In-
organization's spokesman to the
Ways and Means Committee in the
Increase in the normal income Canadians from sources in the
initial consideration of the plan, to
tax rate and Its application to
cor-United States, and Canada follows
the effect that It would be orip-
porate dividend If necessary.
with a similar tax of 10 per cent
pling to business and of doubtful
Application of the principle of the
(upon Americans), the result will
revenue advantage.
undistributed corporate profits tax,
be not to Increase the revenue of
"The measure le not merely a tax
but at a low rate on a fixed base by
the United States, but to diminish
propossi," Mr. Sargent said. "It
subjacting to this form of supertax
it by approximately $16,200,138."
must be considered 8. regulatory
the excess of "adjusted net Income"
Calle Bill Too Complicated
measure and as a form of dellb-
over, first, the corporate Income
erate national economic planning.
tax on such Income and, second,
Appearing as one of the Manufac-
It is 6 further step toward govern-
dividends paid during the taxable
turers Association witnesses, will
ment regulation and regimentation
year.
H. Mooney of Cincinuali, president
of business."
As an alternative of the undistrib-
of the American Oak Leather Com-
Mr. Sargant urged that the
uted profits tax, and SA an incentive pany. said the proding bill was no
Finance Committee discard the bill
to increased dividends, Mr. Stempf complicated and contained DO many
and that 1 special committee of
proposed the following:
provisions of doubtful constitu-
Congress, the Treasury, business
"In conjunction with a higher (lonality "that It contradicia the
and Independent Lis sconomista be
corporate Income tax rate (applied
primary reasons for Its advocacy."
net up to atudy a fundamental re-
directly to the tixed or determine-
I. R. Glass of New York. econo-
vision of the Federal revenue
ble base of adjusted bet income as
mist of the Tenners Council of
structure.
benetofore) a drawback at fixed
America. and the MII would dam-
Mr. Emery and the bill would
rate (applied directly to the amount
age If not destroy many corpora-
further complicate the tax systems
of dividends paid during the taxa-
tione
in
the
tanning
industry
t
and retard business ploneering,
his year) may be allowed as 4 credit cause of the fluctuations in laven
which must proceed if recovery is
the corporate Income tax. sory values due to prices. A com-
to come and stay.
This besis also gyoids the maths pany, THE anid, might frequently
Substitute Play Suggested
matical complications, of . variable have a paper profit on its books being
into on - variable bese. It would cause of inventors values which
A substitute for the pending NUL
including a broader Income-(x)
base and a moderate levy on un-
distributed corporate Income, was
proposed to the committee by V. 11
Stempf of New York in behalf XXZ
176
could not be shown or paid in cash,
of estate, Inheritance and other
although this profit would be sub-
death dues. Senator Lonergan 403.
ject to the full weight of the levy
Connecticut, member of the com-
on undistributed earnings.
mittee, subsequently announced that
A special plea on behalf of the
he would sponsor such an amend-
mining industry for abandonment
ment.
of the proposed profits tax was
L. W. Taliaferro of Detroit, rep-
made by Julian D. Conover of
resenting the Hammond Standish
Washington, secretary of the Amer-
Company, continued the plea of In-
lean Mining Congress; A. G. Mae-
dependent backers for relief from
Kenzie of Salt Lake City, repre-
the "windfall" levy to recoup for-
senting the State Association of
merly impounded or unpaid proc-
Metal Mine Operators and Donald
essing taxes.
A. Callahan of Wallace, Idaho, rep-
H. W. Storey of Milwaukee, rep-
resenting the Idaho Mining Asso-
resenting the Allis-Chalmers Manu-
clation. They argued, in effect,
istrator, asking that revisions be
that the hazards and fluctuations
made to protect national mortgage
of the mining business would
associations, set up under the
render them special victims of such
facturing Company, made a frontal
a tax.
attack on the whole bill. He said It
M. E. Peloubet, member of the
created more inequities than in ex-
firm of Pogson, Peloubet & Co.,
Isting law, and further that It fixed
certified public accountants of New
a dividend policy for a corporation
York, also representing the Ameri-
without any regard for its needs.
can Mining Congress, suggested an
He related that his own company
administrative amendment relating
had re-employed 1,800 men since
to inventories which, he said, would
Jan. 1, but that If it could not keep
make it possible for taxpayers to
sufficient of Its earnings for re-
report as taxable income the In-
serves it could not employ more or
come which is "realizable," rather
keep those now on the payrolls at
than the income which is the result
work.
of arbitrarily writing up or writing
A brief filed with the committee
down assets,
by C. H. Mylander of the Ameri-
can Bankers Association urged re-
For Life Insurance Amendment
vision of the bill to continue the
Lawrence A. Baker, general coun-
present exemptions of dividends
nel for the National Association of
paid on bank stock from the nor-
Life Underwriters, asked the com-
mal Income tax rate. He urged that
mittee to amend the bill to exempt
the other special treatment or
the proceeds of life Insurance
banks as carried in the House bi
policies applicable to the payment
be retained.
Regraded Unclassified
NEW YORK HERALD TRIBUNE May E, 1936.
177
willinsid from will Was
Anti-Tax Bill
If this THE many distribution
Eing to Iffer tea Plane
vs Live individual of Che ALOVE There euro attor plans unlier dan
remission to These corporations William D Eing
resultant Fletz too additional Individ-Dement, of Vish, will ten
Democrated
credit Income inkes words - about to readise wishing corporation
saree bundred millions
taxes and Tales and the allow
"I cap - that the phrse withheldo stupt an undistribuies (sunome tas
Force Revision
from stankholders' was possibly operaty M . low-pate experimental NE
to transmich M propost bettose the cominit-
name $1,200,000,000 FM arrived to to dicrease the vales or She
Home bill runsing to 48% -
Corporation Levy Proposal
Day in Congress
cent by substituting a smale
downward trom 25 to IS per onl of
scarded Surtax
total net Income. with the Times
rates obtained if Income La distributed
Planned as Substitute
From the Rerald Tribuine Burden
Bensior Harrison in min working PAY
WASHINGTON, May The
6 revision of the Bruse bill WITD. the
purpose of zu was -
Morg nthauReply to May
activities IN Congress today were:
parted that be was disturbed or the
SENATE
insurgency of bills colleagues.
Mes at noon
Opposition to the bill intensified
Admits Possible Impignity
Adopted conference report on
today with is comprehenatve STANCE by
the Army appropriation bill.
the National Association of
in Statement du Revenues
Includers. Noel Surgert ecountat.
Adopted conference report en
or the association, and James A.
the appropriation bill for death,
From Trün Durves
justice, commerce and de-
Emary. gearral counsel, sttack whe
"deliberate acondrato planning"
partenents.
WASHINGTON. Me A major
Dehated the Navy appropriation
the regimentation" of the new pr
revision the Adm) pro-
bUL
possi. They protested 156 comply
Brotted at 4:10 until DROB to-
cated character, is increase of tall
grem lay an Hbuted In-
forquities and Its uncertainty BQ
come Mr of corporations appeared to
portow,
ROUSE
revenue procesds.
be approching realization today,
when there were very definite indica-
Mes at 11:30 & m.
Gels Benkers' Views
time that G. bloc of Democrate of the
Began dishate on the relief ap-
The Senate committee today N-
Gensie Finance Commmittee were in
propriation bill
celved the first of the
revolt against the House tax bill and
Adjurrned 41 5:20 und 11 m,
American Banking Association on the
were discussing 4. variety of substi-
tomorrow.
pending tax bills The A. B. A. de-
tute plans.
claim in (avor of the 15 per cent
These democratio members of the
after us had deducted from the
preferential tax rate which the
committee, Including principally those
gives to backs, but asked that the
Isbeled "conservative," were trank to
$4,000,000,000, an emount equal to the
bill be reflued to esempt bank divi-
say that a. week of solid business existing corporation treas.
avida from the normal individual SAN
opposition so the House bill wes hav- "What 1 have just said about ant 4 per cont.
Ing its effect. While they declined to possible smoliquity in the use of this The A. 3. A. potated must that the
executive sessions, septiment has been on the merito of the proposed $378,000,000. and that this sum could
publicly go on record until after terru relates Lo one of my arguments country's banks owe the government
crystallized for tempering the revolu- juctice tax. not at all to my statement be paid only through secumulated
timpary TAX plan, either by imposition of the Treasury's estimate of What earnings or through nate of stock to
of an undistributed corporate Income this tax would field. That estimate residents of operate. the community Because of in the which IOW
tax only 12 an experimental surias
is $623,000,000 additional revenue"
or by scrapping the new proposal and
Mr. May "cought up" the secretary's earnings the bank of the sale of bank stock
resorting to Increases in present cor-
statement before the Senate commit- was difficult the A. a A. asid. Every-
poration tages to obtain additional
Les by pointing out that Commis-thing should be done, the bankers de-
sluner of Internal Revenue Guy clared, to make bank stacks attrac-
revenue.
Balvering had said that the distribu-tive ID order that the government
Morgenthan Answers May
una of $4,500.000,000 vu conditional might be repaid for the stock The
Talk of extensive changes in the
DEL repeat of existing corporation conclusion wes that initial Impost-
tax bill came as Henry Morgenthau
1A200- Treasury officials in discussing of Use normal income w on
Jr., Secretary of the Treasury, in a
MI. Morgethau's letter explained bank dividends would be undestrable
letter to Benator Pat Harrison, Demo-
that
the
$T,300,000,000
of
additional
The
Bankers'
Associations
also
pro-
trat, of Mississippi, chairman of The
Income TAXIM vas figured by the Bec-
she
asvere
THE
relet
of
she
committee, admitted that a statement
retary
on
the
of
&
prevision
&
the
which he made before the Senate
000,000. distribution It of was approximately admitted, however. $7,500- holding pending bank but, company holding polating companies out that DAVIDE there
committee may have Included an am-
biguity. Mr. Morgenthau was #0-
that MY. Morgenthaus imply that statement the addi- deposite were of $5,000,000,000. These to relain Bold-
awaring . charge by George O, May,
could be read to had been computed on mg companies are required under
nationally known statistician. that
the deduction basis of of extrating taxes. This had estating Federal regulation.
tional revenue $4,500,000,000, or without . certain amount of net income a was
the Secretary of the Treasury bad
been guilty of an "obvious and nert-
been the point rathed by Mr. May,
pointed out. and the A. B. A. ce-
ous misstatement of fact."
Although Benate committee mem-
quested that the Income of bank
While reportere had been given the
berry were not quite ready to discuss
holding companies, required to by
impression that the Secretary of the
revisions of the bill indicated, Benetor
withheld by law, be As dide
Treasury would make comprehensive
David 1. Walsh, Democret, of Mai-
tributed Income The Pederal Book
asser to Mr. May's contantion that
aschunetts said: "After impring to
10g Anministration also made & services
the pending tax bill would not ID-
the if a my personal opin-
what simusr required with regard 16
crease the yorenue that might be EX+
nationals -
ton that the bill will neve the be ex-
pected under existing law, Mr. Mur-
constraly and materially redrafted. T
genthau's letter simply reiterated that
think & good many of my colleagues
the Treasury estimate ves that $023.-
en the committee (ee) the name was."
000,000 of additional revenue would
be obtained under the proposed new
Sepator Tom connaily, Democrat. of
Texas * statements Administration 40p-
us.
purter. - pressing for approval of
Letter In Barrison
the undervibuted corporate Income
The Suretary of the Treasury wrote
tax as . quetas. The Senator an-
to Senstor Harrison M follows:
nouneed that under bis preliminary
"Testerday part of the statement
plan, corporations world to subjected
which I made before your commit-
to 6. flat 12% per cent last ou net 10-
Com on April ao was chellenged. The
come, the type of caretion of existing
particular part of the statement was
Isw. The would also lie eight
the following: The department Las
jested to . 12% per rent tax on that?
Name estimated thes under the pres-
income. This would
eat lew шоге than four and one-hall
and DU . 12% per atet use 00 the
otlinn dollars of corporation Income
CODE that le distributed and 9. 28 per
to the extender par 1928 will be
cebt us m Income retained
COPY
178
UNITED STATES SENATE
Committee OR Finance
May eighth,
1936.
Honorable Henry Morgenthau, Jr.,
Secretary of the Treasury,
Washington, 3. c.
My dear Mr. Secretary:
It has been stated that sany of our financially strong corpor-
ations, especially those of substantial size, will pay little or no
taxes to the Federal Treasury If the pending bill is passed. I as
checking the accuracy of these statements, and I an likewice interest-
ed in the opportunities that may be afforded such corporations by the
bill to avoid the payment of taxes.
Re must guard curefully against giving these large corporations
a greater advantage and perhaps A stranglehold over their present smaller
competitors. Frankly, I an concerned about the application of the pro-
posed tax policies to those corporations which now have large surpluses
and a strong cash or credit position.
We must nake certain that legislation does not prevent the healthy
growth and expansion of our smaller businesses by imposing & penalty upon
them if their financial position and their business opportunities do not
permit the payment in dividends of substantially all their profits. I
want your assistance in appraising the situation.
I have selected from Moody's Memual & few of the largest corpor-
ations, with a view to determining the rate of tax which would be imposed
upon then 15 the pensing tax bill should be enacted. The only statistics
I have available are for 1934. I should appreciate it very auch 1f you
would check the list I give you and let ne have a similar list for 1935,
if statistics are available to you.
A FEE OF THE CORPORATIONS WHICH WOULD PAY NO TAX,
BASED ON 1984 RETURNS - (Nov DAY 15%)
Company
Net Income
Dividends
After Tax
Paid Out.
American Tel. & Tal.
$121,748,729
9167,960,475
American Tobacco CS:
24,084,260
26;595;858
Aver. Smelting & Refining
7,585,202
7,875,000
General Electric Co.
19,726,044
19,881,453
Goodyear Tire & Rubber Co.
4,207,684
4,508,907
International Harvester
3,948,637
6,264,040
Natl. Biscuit Co.
11,597,573
19,939,342
Natl. Dairy Products Co.
8,551,930
6,197,575
Ohio 011 Co.
5,411,924
6,294,728
R. J. Reynolds Tobacco Co.
21,556,894
50,000,000
Texas Company
5,645,205
9,346,820
179
- = -
The above list of financially strong companies that can 022-
plotoly avoid tention can be groatly expended.
CORPORATIONS VACION WOULD
PAY 1283 5 MR CENT.
Tax Under
llow DELLA
Mr Reduction
4,245,416
3,757,142
2.02%
Allied Chemical & Dye Corp.
17,048,586
15,705,374
3.00
Corn Products Refining Co.
9,702,696
9,294,700
1.80
Custlin Publishing Co.
5,000,326
5,400,000
8. I. du Pont
46,701,408
40,758,914
3.60
Pirostono Tiro & Rubber
4,204,056
5,572,193
4.00
General Foods
11,113,076
9,452,614
4.80
Groat Western Sugar
5,701,727
5,370,000
1.55
Imporial 011 Co.
14,101,501
15,415,169
1.40
Liggett & Myors Tobe Co.
20,086,091
17,200,227
4,16
Partics, Davis & Co.
8,719,368
8,232,480
1.50
Ponnaylvania Railwood Co.
13,577,839
13,214,946
&SQ
U. B. Smelting a Refining
6,052,968
6,000,129
CORPORATIONS vaca WOULD PAY
10 PER Carl
Not Income
Dividends
Tax Percember
Commy
After 2az
Paid Out
Applicable
019,582,045
$15,256,521
8.84
American Can Co.
9,235,835
5,800,000
8.56
Amour and Co. (Dole)
Bastman Rodak Co.
14,505,247
10,400,086
6.20
94,760,151
75,621,710
5.72
General Hotors
20,478,190
16,430,790
7.78
Great Asb P₂ Tea Co₂
International Shoo Co₂
3,967,024
6,671,742
9.37
J. 0. Pomy Company
16,147,315
11,307,108
0.30
5,707,500
4,155,008
8480
Phillips Potroloun Co.
14,570,007
10,512,806
Cabo
Proctor & Gamble
24,121,207
18,052,561
0.98
Oil Co.
Stand. Oil Co. (Calif)
18,347,807
13,000,479
5.00
18,960,600
15,371,229
8.00
Standard 011 Co₂ (Inde)
67,4 1271
54,204,103
0.22
Standard 011 Co. (HeJ.)
Toxas Gulf Sulplar Co.
6,193,476
5,730,000
0.00
United Fruit Co₂
12,040,300
8,717,985
8.56
32,142,365
25,235,676
Fe We Wookworth Co.
Regraded Unclassified
180
I also ask that you furnish me with the names of all corporations
which, for the last year for which the statistics are available, had a net
income, before Federal taxes, of more than $1,000,000, and, based upon the
actual distributions for the year, will receive a tax reduction of sisty
per cent or more under the pending bill,
You will approciate that the fundamental purpose of my inquiry in-
volves not only competitive advantages to the strong corporations, but
the restraints of heavy texos upon smil and modium sized enterprisos
upon which we must depend DO largely for re-seployment of labor, and
for healthy business growth.
It is unrecessary for me to add that the data caust be available
promptly if it is to serve & useful purpose. I shall appreciate very
much your assistance and cooporation,
Cordially yours,
(Signed) Harry 7. Dyrd
Unclassi
MISC
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
OF NEW YORK
181
OFFICE CORRESPONDENCE
DATE May 8, 1938.
CONFIDENTIAL FILES
SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION
Regraded Unclassifie
TO
L. W. Knoke
WITH BANK OF ENGLAND.
FROM
I called Mr. Bolton at 12:12 D. n. today. He reported that
in Pain
the day had not been quite as bad as yesterday, when there had prac-
tically been a penic; the Bourse was a trifle quieter but the export
of capital was proceeding at much the same pace. There had been a very
distinct weakening this afternoon of the position of the Dutch and the
Swiss currencies, probably because everybody seemed to expect that some-
thing would happen in France over the weekend. Personally, he did not
share that opinion. Weakness of the guilder, he thought, could in part
at least be blamed upon the slow mechanism of the Netherlands Bank when
it came to deliver gold; also upon the fact that the Dutch bank closes
at 8 o'clock and nothing in the world will induce it thereafter to do
anything until the following morning. Meanwhile the pressure on the
franc continued and the question was how long the French could hold out.
I referred to the rumor circulated here that future dealings
in foreign exchange had been suspended on the Paris Bourse. Bolton
said that although he had heard of it he did not believe it to be true.
What had probably happened in Paris was that, owing to the scarcity of
cash, the speculators had found it difficult to scrape the necessary
cash margin together and were consequently compelled to reduce the volume
of their operations.
I asked him whether the much talked of squeeze of the shorts
seemed as imminent as some of the reports indicated. Bolton thought that
there was undoubtedly an enormous amount of speculation going on, ⑉
pecially in Amsterdem and Paris, but did not believe that the demand for
francs from this source, once the gamblers were compelled to run for
use 1,1 60M 10-35
FEDERAL RESERVE BANK
181 A
OF NEW YORK
OFFICE CORRESPONDENCE
DATE May 8, 1936.
©CONFIDENTIAL FILES
SUBJECT: TELEPHONE CONVERSATION
L. W. Knoke
WITH BANK OF ENGLAND.
FROM
6 2 -
cover, would be strong enough to reestablish public confidence. As he
put it, confidence would have to come first. Needless to say, they
would like nothing better than to see a few of the speculators run.
I inquired as to the size of his operations today and Bolton
replied that they had been about the same as usual. (We have since
learned that they are estimated to have been in the neighborheod of
250,000,000 francs.) Engagements for New York, he estimated at about
$10,000,000. (Total reported to us by New York banks is $10,895,000.)
The demand for gold in London, Bolton said, continued to be tremendous,
both sovereigns and eagles being quoted at quite a premium. The London
price for gold bars had risen from 140 shillings and 5 pence halfpenny at
the fixing to 140 shillings and 7 pence late in the afternoon. The
latter figure works out about $35 per ounce delivery in London.
Everybody, Bolton thought, had the jitters this weekend.
LWK:KMC
Regraded Unclassified
182
May 8, 1936
This was prepared by the Secretary, but it was not
necessary to give it to the President.
183
DRAFT
During & discussion on Housing yesterday, you casually
mentioned the fact that you were having difficulty in bring-
1ng CCC camps to the full enrollment. You further dropped
the remark that you might have to go outside of the relief
families for future candidates for the CCC camps and might
take boys from families whose income did not exceed $500 a
year.
It seems to me if this principle were applied to the
CCC boys, it would not be very long before we would be giving
work to families from the same class and the chances of our
reducing the annual expenditures for unemployment would go
out the window.
I believe I am right in saying that the reason you are
having difficulty in getting more CCC boys 18 because they
are finding employment and that 18, of course, what we want.
If we extend this opportunity to boys coming from families
who have some income, I just cannot see any end to the road
of deficits.
Up to now, I have been entirely satisfied with the fiscal
picture and I can see a balanced budget coming before we will
have to resort to the printing press, but once we begin to
use Federal funds for families who are not in need I really
Regraded Unclassified
184
-2-
would become alarmed over the future of the fiscal founda-
tion of your Administration.
Regraded Unclassified
185
May 8, 1936
I called the President at 9:15 this morning.
I told him that Cochran, in our telephone conversation
this morning, had said that the market in Paris was very
nervous; that Parker Willis had sent a cable over that we
had entered into an agreement with England on stabilization;
that Cochran had asked what he should answer them and I
facetiously said, "Say that he 18 Just another professor."
The President suggested putting someone on Parker
Willis' statements with the idea that someone ought to make
a radio talk -- not he, the President, nor I -- and talk
about misinformation by some Americans, disloyalty of some
Americans, to their own Government; that one American sends
information to Paris who Just in a short space of a year has
made BO many false statements that he has seriously hurt the
position of the country. "I think it would be interesting
to do this, the President said.
I then told the President that I had asked the men in
the Treasury to set up all of Parker Willis' statements to
date. They will put these on one page and on another page
prepare another statement showing how incorrect his state-
ments have been.
I also had the following to tell the President: I B&W
Pat Harrison and he is going to want to see you and wants
to change the whole bill. Before he sees you, however, I
think the Treasury boys and I ought to have a 'dress rehearsal'
with you. I said to Pat, 'I have not talked to the President
about the bill since you and I talked together and I do not
want to change my position before you and I see the President
again.' I told him that because I was afraid that if I
talked too much about it, he might quote me. I also told
the President of Pat Harrison's suggestion that in addition
to the present flat rate on corporate income, there be an
added flat tax on undistributed earnings. The figures Pat
used were a 15% flat tax and a 15% supertax unless more than
30% of the corporation earnings were withheld, in which case
he would recommend a graduated supertax on the withheld earn-
ings.
I also said to the President, Pat Harrison also told
me that Gifford, of A.T. &T., had said that if this bill
went through, he would pay no tax 8.8 against paying $30,000,000
now. Pat's suggestion would make him pay something. I am
Regraded Unclassified
186
-2-
thinking of bringing down a national accountant, I told the
President, to analyze our figures in order to answer May.
I asked him, "Do you know Hague of Columbia? Do you think
well of him?" and the President replied, "No; I do not think
well of him. I put him on the original St. Eawrence Investi-
gatory Board. He brought in & very wishy-washy report and
I finally had to swing over the way way. He did not stand
up."
186A
Friday
May 8, 1936
HMjr:
Strange as it may seem I'm in a very good humor.
Earle
Bailie:
Good!
HMjr:
Because I think that I made a straight-forward answer
to Mr. May where everybody sort of wanted me to kind
of duck it.
B:
I think you were a hundred percent right.
HMjr:
And, I gave - I mean I made a perfectly honest answer.
Well, didn't you feel that way?
B:
Yes, I felt exactly that way. In fact I said exactly
that thing at the table this morning when I was reading
it.
HMjr:
And I think that if we do make a mistake that the people
have far more confidence in the Treasury if we say SO.
B:
Absolutely!
HMjr:
Yes
B:
I mean there's no patent on perfection any place.
HMjr:
No
B:
Even Mr. May's article I think in one or two places
was --
HMjr:
Oh, yes, now - that leads me up to what I want to ask
you in confidence - I thought that I might want to
bring down whoever the head of Ernst & Ernst is and let
them look at our figures and then tell us whether our
bases for our estimates are right or wrong. What would
you think of that?
B:
Well now, I don't know about that firm.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Let me tell you, I mean I don't know about their recent
standing.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
I do know that in the pre-depression day -
HMjr:
Yes
Regraded Unclassified
186B
-2-
B:
- in 1928 and 29 they were connected with a couple of
rather phony situations and got criticized for it.
What their standing now is, it must
HMjr:
Yes
B:
In other words if you're going to do this you want to
do this with somebody who's - who is -
HMjr:
The top of the heap.
B:
Exactly. Well now, they aren't.
HMjr:
Well, who is?
B:
Well now, of course Mr. May is.
HMjr:
I know, but I -
B:
But I mean - I mean I'll just start with that.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
He is without any doubt recognized every place as the
top man.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Now there are four or five others, Rexford first -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
The trouble is that most of them have rather an English
flavor to them. In other words, take for instance the
people who do the - have done the work for us in the
companies for so long - the Lloyd Printer Gibbons and
Company -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
They have an excellent reputation.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
And yet there is nobody in that group, broad-gauge man -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- who could possibly stand up against the type of man
that May is.
HMjr:
Yes
Regraded Unclassified
186C
-3-
B:
Now Arthur Andersen and Company are another excellent
firm. But I don't know --
HMjr:
Well, Earle, may I ask this? Has Ernst and Ernst possi-
bly gone through a reorganization in the last two or
three years?
B:
Well now that's - that I can find out. That's what
I'll make my business to find out right away.
HMjr:
And is - possibly they've got a new president.
B:
It may well be - that may well be - that - I've
really put them out of my mind seven years ago and
haven't looked at them since just because of the - of
the criticism at that time which was well founded.
HMjr:
Well --
B:
On the other hand, you know, even the great firm of
Price Water House -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- advised on the Lord Kilphan balance sheet -
HMjr:
On the what?
B:
On the Lord Kilphan balance sheet in England. And the
Parker of Price Water House was indicted and tried over
there.
HMjr:
Who did they advise?
B:
Lord Kilphan, who was the shipping man who was sent to
jail.
HMjr:
I know, Lord Kilphan?
B:
Yes
HMjr:
And it was Price Water House advised them?
B:
The English Office of Price Water House advised them.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
I just point that out so as to show you that even God
has specks on him You get my point?
HMjr:
Yes, but this fellow isn't God.
Regraded Unclassified
186 D
-4-
B:
(Laughter) No, but he sometimes thinks he is. It's
rather his
:
HMjr:
Yes, as a matter of fact, I could pull some of his testi-
mony apart.
B:
Well, I thought you could too.
HMjr:
But that --
B:
But I don't think it's productive.
HMjr:
It isn't up to me.
B:
Yes, I quite agree with you.
HMjr:
Now listen, Earle, if you've got a half an hour would
you mind phoning around - ?
B:
I'll get right to work on it and I'll spend the rest of
the morning on it.
HMjr:
And then will you call me back?
B:
Yes, I'll - what I'll try to find out is first about
Ernst and Ernst -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Second, I'll see if - if I don't get a good answer
there I will try to see if there isn't some outstanding
accountant in one of the big firms whom I could heartily
recommend to you as an independent person.
HMjr:
That's right.
B:
Now, I'll go right at it.
HMjr:
Now, there is an advantage of having a firm that is
nationally know.
B:
Exactly.
HMjr:
Now, the firms that you mentioned mean nothing to me.
I never heard of them. Now that -
B:
Yes, I get you. Well,- Lybrand Ross and Montgomery is
another nationally known firm.
HMjr:
Yes
- You see, to me Price Water House and Ernst and
Ernst - I've heard those names over and over again.
B:
Yes - well, now at the present time
- I don't
hear. I mean, they don't convey that to me. But -
Regraded Unclassified
186E
-5-
HMjr:
No, but I'm the !man on the street', you see?
B:
I get you.
HMjr:
And I suppose - and now I don't want to - you, you,
if you would, go to work on it and call me back?
B:
I've got your problem, Henry, and I'll go right at it.
HMjr:
Because, here's the way I feel, as problem number one,
- Are our estimates of revenue correct?
B:
Right
HMjr:
If we can satisfy ourselves as to that that's fifty per-
cent of the question.
B:
Right
HMjr:
Isn't that right?
B:
Yes, I think it is.
HMjr:
That's fifty percent. The other - other problem, see -?
which I may talk to you later over the week-end.
B:
Right
HMjr:
But if you could do this for me?
B:
Well, I've got - I've got some further ideas on that
and I'd like to talk on the telephone with you over the
week-end about it.
HMjr:
I will.
B:
Where are you going to be, Hen?
HMjr:
Right here.
B:
Righto
HMjr:
Right
B:
All right, you'll hear from me in an hour or two.
HMjr:
Thank you.
B:
Goodbye.
186F F
Friday
May 8, 1936
HMjr:
Hello
Earle
Bailie:
Hello, Henry
HMjr:
Hello, Earle
B:
Henry, I've got the following things to suggest.
HMjr:
Please
B:
In the first place I'd like to make a very radical
suggestion which I think would be excellent policy
and a good thing to do.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
It's not an exclusive suggestion, it's part of a general
suggestion so hear me through before you express a view.
HMjr:
That's all right.
B:
I would send for George May -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
and I would ask him to come and sit down with me. I'd
say to him that you-each of you had only one thing at
heart you felt sure and that was the soundness of what-
ever measure went through and you wanted him to look at
your figures and see - point out to you personally
where they were wrong if they were wrong.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
You want to know what the facts were. I think, from
the point of view of getting advice you'd be talking
to the best man in the country; from the point of view
of spiking the enemies' gun, you'd make it almost im-
possible for him to be an effective weapon from that
time on against you.
HMjr:
I see.
B:
Now, that's a low point of view -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
But I see it combines several rather attractive features.
HMjr:
Yes
156G
-2-
Bt
Now then, I wouldn't see him alone. I would ask down
one of the two following persons, Mr. Niven, of Touche
Niven -
HMjr:
Mr. who?
B:
N-1-v-e-n
HMJr:
N-1 - ?
B:
v-e-n
HMjr:
Niven?
B:
Niven of Touche Niven
HMjr:
of Touche
B:
Niven
HMjr:
Touche Niven, yes
B:
Now then, I don't know him personally, but two men whom
I - - of whom I have the highest regard and who work
with accountants constantly, tell me that of the ac-
countants -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- in this country, that second to May -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- he's the kind of a fellow who stands on his own feet,
who would not be overwhelmed by May at all.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
I mean, if he thought he was right the devil couldn't
keep him from saying SO.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Now if you couldn't get him or if he couldn't for some
reason or other sit in - of course I don't know any-
thing about politics or --
HMjr:
No, I don't - I don't care.
B:
Well, neither did I. I knew you didn't, but I mean I
did want to say that. I haven't had time --
HMjr:
Yes - is Mr. Niven the head of the firm?
186H
-3-
B:
Well, I think Mr. Touche has died.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Mr. Niven is the active leading man.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Now there's - the other man is a fellow named Staub,
S-t-a-u-b.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Of Lybrand, Ross and Montgomery
HMjr:
Of what?
B:
Lybrand -
HMjr:
Library?
B:
L-y-b-r-a-n-d
HMjr:
Lybrand?
B:
Lybrand, Ross and Montgomery
HMjr:
Ross?
B:
Yes
HMjr:
Yes
B:
and Montgomery.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Now, both Touche Niven and Lybrand, Ross and Montgomery
are A-1, very prominent firms.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Their names, to anybody who is a student of that school
at all would stand just aces high.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
So either one of those fellows would be useful but it's
only fair to say that I couldn't find anybody who said
that George May had any second in his field.
HMjr:
Any which?
186
-4-
B:
Any second -
HMjr:
Second?
B:
In other words George May is the first man in his field
and he is the second man in his field according to the
public opinion.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Now this - here is the other suggestion that I have to
make. There is a man named Frederic Mills, M-1- double
1-s, professor at Columbia -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- who has published over a period of the last three or
four years -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- studies on the sources of income in the United States,
from various points of view including the tax point of
view, -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- which are the best things of their kind that have ever
been written.
HMjr:
I see.
B:
And he probably knows more about the sources of the income
in this country -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
than any other single individual.
HMjr:
I see.
B:
And I think that that fellow -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
I don't know whether you could get him or not -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
But if you could get him - and he told me that a set
of figures were right -
Regraded Unclassified
1865
-5-
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- from the business point of view, because after all
that's - you're just as much interested in that -
HMjr:
That's right.
B:
I would believe him.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
I'd absolutely believe him.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
Now that's about the story, Henry.
HMjr:
Well that's very very helpful.
B:
I think my, - don't dismiss my May suggestion lightly.
HMjr:
Pardon me?
B:
I say, don't dismiss my --
HMjr:
I - I don't want to sound Rooseveltian, but I did have
it in mind.
B:
(Laughter) 0. K.
HMjr:
All right
B:
All right, sir
HMjr:
All right
B:
I know that man well enough to know, -
HMjr:
Yes
B:
- that he'd never take advantage of you.
HMjr:
Yes
B:
I mean, he's that kind of a fellow.
HMjr:
Well, that's nice, but I take advantage of so easy.
B:
I think you could take advantage of him.
HMjr:
(Laughter)
Regraded Unclassified
186 K
-6-
B:
Right
HMjr:
All right
B:
All right, I'll be hearing from you over the weekend.
HMjr:
Yes, that's right.
B:
Goodbye.
HMjr:
Goodbye.
****
HMjr:
Get me the University of Chicago.
Operator: All right.
Friday
May 8, 1936
187
Operator: Here you are -
HMjr:
Hello -
H. M.
Cochran:
Hello - hello, Mr. Morgenthau -
HMjr:
Good morning - hello, Cochran -
C:
Mr. Morgenthau?
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Do you hear me?
HMjr:
I hear you.
C:
You can hear me?
HMjr:
Yes
C:
The market is a little nervous today -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
The turnover is not nearly so large as yesterday.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
At two forty-five this afternoon Guaranty had done
three and one half million dollars.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
The Control is in at seventy-five point sixty-two
having - with a little more business done over London -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
for New York.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But still today it's not nearly so nervous as yesterday.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
The market seems rather bare of francs.
HMjr:
Bare of francs?
C:
That's right. And the big French banks have stepped
out of the forward markets.
Regraded Unclassified
-2-
188
HMjr:
Yes
C:
So that's the situation a little bit.
HMjr:
Well now, would you say that there was - that it's
better or worse?
C:
It looks better today.
HMjr:
Better today?
C:
Yes
HMjr:
Better today?
C:
Beg pardon?
HMjr:
Is the situation better or worse today?
C:
It's better today.
HMjr:
Better today?
C:
Yes - The stock market opened rather badly with the
Bank of France shares down and the
down.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Improving since the opening -
HMjr:
I see.
C:
The situation is not good yet.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But still it is better than yesterday.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
Considerably better.
HMjr:
All right, now your cables are very helpful.
C:
I departed
that visit yesterday morning.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
I was out there at eight-thirty.
HMjr:
Is that right? - Now, Cochran -
Regraded Unclassified
-3-
189
C:
Yes
HMjr:
You needn't send any more cables across the Channel.
C:
No?
HMjr:
No - you can stop that.
C:
Beg pardon?
HMjr:
Stop sending any more copies of your cable across the
Channel.
C:
I see.
HMjr:
Do you know what I mean?
C:
Yes
HMjr:
I mean I make it specific, you needn't send anymore to
Butterworth.
C:
Beg pardon?
HMjr:
You needn't send copies of your cables to Butterworth.
C:
I understand.
HMjr:
You haven't gotten any more from him, have you?
C:
No, I haven't for a while.
HMjr:
No, well then you stop sending him cables.
C:
I see.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And - did you hear about the Parker Willis article in
the "Agence Economique" this morning?
HMjr:
No
C:
I wired it to you in its entirety.
HMjr:
What does - what does my friend Parker say this morning?
C:
He said that it was generally admitted that an important
agreement had been concluded between the British and
American authorities -
which is due to the present
relation of dollar and pound.
HMjr:
Wait a minute, say it again.
-4-
190
C:
Really due -
HMjr:
I say, start from the beginning.
C:
Yes - I'll read it verbatim.
HMjr:
Is it very long?
C:
No -
HMjr:
All right
C:
-
'It is generally admitted that an important
agreement has been concluded between British and
American authorities which is due to maintaining the
present ratio of dollar and pound in face of monetary
dangers in Europe.'
HMjr:
Yes
C:
'When Mr. Morgenthau
as to
whether its ratio would permit that any stabilization
bond could forego in New York against the dollar sale
or eventual export, declared that he did not wish to
discuss it. This answer has been interpreted as con-
firming actual conclusion of an Anglo-American Agreement.
According to other information straight from unofficial
sources the agreement has already entered into effect.'
HMjr:
Yes
C:
'It appeared that the rate for conversion of pound into
dollar
of about the present level with allowances
made for the ratio
periodically
within the limit of terms outlined by British monetary
authority.'
HMjr:
Yes
C:
'The
of the American authorities has been
attributed by this act as its arrangement
conclusion of a stabilization agree-
ment with Great Britain. And yet only a few months
ago the creation of such a state of affeirs was de-
clared improbable by both parties.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
high officials of the
Treasury
some irritation
at the Treasury in the matter of
monetary policy operates on a twenty-four hour basis.
Regraded
191
-5-
I think this has attracted quite a bit of attention
over here.
HMjr:
What's that?
C:
This has attracted considerable attention.
HMjr:
Well, your comment can be that he's just another pro-
fessor.
C:
(Laughter) Well, I won't make any, but I want you to
have the full text -
HMjr:
All right -
just another professor
C:
I see our friend tomorrow -
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And they meet on Sunday and Monday.
HMjr:
Who does?
C:
The Bank meets - the B. I. S.
HMjr:
Oh, yes.
C:
So I'll be back Tuesday morning.
HMjr:
All right.
C:
And Tannery is going also.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
And so we expect nothing - no turnover of any kind here
this week.
HMjr:
I see.
C:
Although the Left is urging Sarraut to get out and make
way for Blum.
HMjr:
Yes
C:
But if the situation doesn't get any worse why that's
unlikely.
HMjr:
Yes.
All right, thank you.
Good -
C:
I'll wire you Tuesday and I'll have my assistant wire
you probably Monday.
-6-
HMjr:
All right -
192
C:
Goodbye
HMjr:
Thank you.
193
May 8, 1936
Meeting held in Secretary Morgenthau's office at 10:30 on Housing
Present:
Secretary Morgenthau,
Jesse Jones
James B. Alley, General Counsel RFC
Mr. Bell
Mr. Opper
Mr. Jones: Read off items one and two.
Mr. Jones: No. 3 provides the right to borrow from
the RFC 100 million without security.
Mr. Jones: No. 4 - Right to issue notes guaranteed by
the government for the next three years.
Mr. Jones read on and after he had read the sentence,
"the grants may be in the form of annual subsidies" he said,
"that may be any direct grant."
Mr. Morgenthau: Have you some ideas about it.
Mr. Jones: Have a good many ideas about it but it is
hard to take the bill and show what it will do.
Mr. Morgenthau: Let's take it from the money standpoint.
He said between 8 and 9 million.
Mr. Bell: What is that for?
Mr. Jones: I don't know.
Mr. Morgenthau: He had a direct appropriation of
51 million.
Mr. Bell: That is right.
Mr. Jones: I have not been able to find out from
Colonel Hackett or Clas or get an estimate of what they thought
they could spend or should spend within a fiscal year but that
9 million was really to pay that extra rent - the subsidy.
Regraded Unclassified
194
- 2 -
Mr. Bell: The money made available for the grant
over and above --
Mr. Jones: Yes - instead of giving them 45% we will
let them pay their rent.
Mr. Opper: It was to give them everything over $6.00
rent for 45% of the balance - 45% of the $6.00.
Mr. Morgenthau: You mean 45% of the $6.00?
Mr. Opper: That's right. I got that through Oliphant.
Mr. Morgenthau: Let's say the building costs 1 million.
As I understand it the New York Housing Authority builds a build-
ing for 1 million and I understood it that $550,000 is raised
in the State of New York and that $450,000 will be loaned by the
federal government and then the fellows pay less so the rooms are
worth $10.00. The tenant pays $6.00 and the federal government
pays $4.00 - is that wrong? Is that the way it is in the bill?
Mr. Opper: In the bill it is different again. Regardless
of what the cost of the project is as compared to the rentals they
can get they can grant up to 45% of the total cost.
Mr. Morgenthau: Is it true that we can only lend money
to the State Housing Authority?
Mr. Opper: You can lend it to a Mortgage Dividend Company
under the bill.
Mr. Morgenthau: Well don't they raise any money?
Mr. Jones: No requirements on this bill.
Mr. Opper: Can I give you the pattern of the present
bill. The Housing Authority, under the Wagner Bill, can grant
45% of the total cost regardless of how much is received in rent.
They give them 45% and never get it back and they can rent all of
the rest. In the case of a Limited Dividend Company they can't
make any grant but can lend up to 85% of the cost. The rent stuff
was injected for the first time in the new proposal - not in the
bill.
Mr. Morgenthau: Isn't that in the bill?
Mr. Opper: That is with respect to the amount of money
that the government will give.
Regraded Unclassified
- 3 -
195
Mr. Alley: This grant may be in a lump sum or
may be in fixed contributions over a period of 60 years.
Mr. Opper: You start out with a grant - you can
either give 45% in a lump sum or capitalize it on an annuity
basis and pay off 1/60th each year but total amount is only 60%.
Mr. Morgenthau: My father made money out of real
estate and so did Jesse.
Mr. Jones: Yes I made money and lost too.
Mr. Morgenthau: Give them the $450,000 and get
through with it.
Mr. Jones: That's all right, Henry, except you
don't get ---
Mr. Morgenthau: I know but if you give them that
then you are through because at the end of the 50th year
we would have to build.
Mr. Jones: You are never going to get through as
long as you have Congress. If you give them 45 this year
you will have to give them part of the 55 next year. I want
to explain this. If that room ought to rent for $10. in order
to pay 85% on the investment and a fellow can't pay this we
have to give him this $4.00 some way. You will give him the
450 but the only grant to pay is rent. You don't do both - you
do one or the other.
Bell: Section 9 provides for a grant.
Mr. Morgenthau: Let's think out loud for a momement.
Up to now we have taken the position, unless something happened
last night, that anything that is not in the budget is out.
Mr. Jones: This is not in the budget is it no part
of it?
Mr. Bell: No part of it.
Mr. Morgenthau: Now what will it do then? That seems
to be in the President's mind that you have to have some grant.
I think he said they are asking for 51 million but they are not
going to spend it but hell it shows up. If you give them 51
they spend 52.
Regraded Unclassified
196
- 4 -
Mr. Jones: But Wagner - I think you have to find
some way to give him some grant for the first year.
Mr. Morgenthau: I have a radical suggestion to make,
Everybody admits that the housing that Ickes has done is
nothing but slum clearance - is that right Jesse?
Mr. Jones: That is right.
Mr. Morgenthau: The suggestion I will make is that
if I take this bill I would have to take anything Ickes has
planted in his low cost housing organization - so many millions
of dollars.
Mr. Bell: I don't know how much 170 or 140 million -
some is obligated and some spent but very little has been spent.
Mr. Morgenthau: Why don't we say to this organization -
stop this building of low cost housing. Low cost housing does
compete with private capital and let's do what we all talked
about - make Ickes' organization into a real slum clearance
organization and change the rules and regulations so that it
is really a slum clearance organization.
Mr. Jones: At first blush that sounds good. That
would get over your immediate grants but you have a good many
hurdles to go over with Wagner. I think you can get your first
money out of this business here - this 140 million but I think
you would have a hard time to satisfy Wagner with just that,
Mr. Bell: What chance has this bill - you only have
a month of Congress left.
Mr. Morgenthau: I am not going to say you don't need
slum clearance but I am going to say the money is there.
Mr. Jones: I have been talking along that line with
Hackett. You go to Atlanta and build a nice building. Con-
gress is thinking about slums of New York, Pittsburgh, Chicago.
You don't need it in St. Louis, Dallas, etc.
Mr. Jones: I am not going to get into an argument but
how much has Ickes got left? Could you give us some idea as
to how much of this 140 is available and so on and then I
will work out a program and come back here Monday or Tuesday.
Mr. Morgenthau: Are we thinking alike?
Mr. Jones: Yes absolutely.
Regraded Unclassified
- 5 -
197
Mr. Bell: It is the same old story you will run up
against - only 30 or 40 million actually obligated. It is all
committed and they may have gone out and let contracts for the
foundation. We will say they have not let contracts for the
foundation so to that extent the money is committed but it is
not actually obligated.
Mr. Morgenthau: What is the total sum he has for low
cost housing?
Mr. Bell: He had a little over 100 million.
Mr. Morgenthau: Opper was in this low cost housing
in New York - - he knows all about it.
Note: While Mr. Morgenthau was telling Mr. Jones that
Opper knew all about this low cost housing, Bell was checking his
book for the total sum which Ickes had for low cost housing.
Mr. Bell: 101 million allocated out of the 4 billion 8
by the President for housing. 27 million of that is obligated
and 13 million 800 thousand has been spent.
Mr. Morgenthau: Yes but Dan back of that was the old
3 billion 3.
Mr. Alley: What date is that?
Mr. Bell: April 20th.
Mr. Jones: I think we can check this thing and work
out a plan and I will get it back here. There is no hurry as
Wagner left for New York and won't be back until after Monday
or Tuesday.
Regraded
198
WAGNER BILL
Capital Funds
1. Transfer of property now belonging to PHA of the approximate value
of $140,000,000.
2. Federal appropriation of $51,000,000 for the first year
$75,000,000 for the second year
$100,000,000 for the third year
$100,000,000 for the fourth year.
30 Right to borrow from the RFC $100,000,000.
40 Right to issue notes guaranteed by the U. S. Government,
$100,000,000 for the first year
$150,000,000 each for the next three years
Bill provides for a Board of 5.
No limitation placed on type of demonstration projects to be wholly financed
by Federal Government.
Authority is authorised to make greats up to 45% of the cost of land and
buildings to public housing agencies, and may loan to limited dividen@
corporations up to 85% of the cost of land and buildings, to the amount
of $25,000,000 per year for four years.
The grants may be in the form of ennual subsidies
Loans say be made for as long as 60 years.
Regraded Unclassified
INDEX
NEW ORLEANS CASES
200
May 8, 1936
Memo from Irey, attaching report from Special Agent in
Charge Buford, advising of disposition of five cases in
New Orleans.
May 19
Memo from Irey reporting further on disposition of New
Orleans cases.
May 20
Memo from Irey and attached report from Burford. Irey
says Jackson trying to arrange conference to discuss the
handling of New Orleans cases.
May 22
HM, Jr. called Bob Jackson to raise question with him, of-
ficially, as to whether or not Viosca was fit to try the
New Orleans cases.
May 23
HM, Jr. spoke to Attorney General about Viosca and inquired
of him if he was not disturbed. Attorney General said
no; nothing to get really disturbed about.
June 1
HM, Jr. spoke to the President ; told him Viosca's name
was going to be recommended for District Attorney of New
Orleans and that under no circumstances should his name
be sent up for confirmation.
August 10
Letter prepared by Gaston to Editor, BY Herald-Tribune
contradicting information contained In their editorial
of August 8.
August 11
.t lunch with stty. Genl., HM,Jr. said he thought it
would be mutually advantageous to have Bob Jackson
try the Louisiana tax cases. Jackson's secretary said
he did not want to, but Cummings will personally get in
touch with him. Atty. Genl. advised against sending
letter to NY Herald Tribune saying Treasury was "in the
clear."
Regraded
BUREAU OF INTERNAL REVENUE
OFFICE OF
201
CHIEF, INTELLIGENCE UNIT
May 9, 1936.
MEMORANDUM FOR THE SECRETARY:
Attached 1a a communication from Special Agent
in Charge Burford at New Orleans, in which he advises
that on May 6th Rudy O'Dwyer, George O'Dwyer and C. A.
Kenney appeared in court before Judge Rufus E. Foster,
senior member of the Circuit Court of Appeals, and
entered pleas of guilty to all counts in the indict-
ments against them. They were fined, respectively,
$4500, $3500 and $1500 and were required to pay the
taxes and penalties charged to be due. The total of
these taxes and penalties was $85,401.00, which, to-
gether with the $9500 in fines, made a total of
$94,901.00.
Last evening I received a telegram from Mr. Burford
advising that yesterday afternoon Manasse Karger and
Marks Karger appeared before Judge Foster, plead guilty
and were fined $1,000 each. They, likewise, were re-
quired to pay their taxes and penalties which totaled
$20,380.00.
There was, consequently, received from the five
defendants in taxes, penalties and fines a total of
$116,880.
of the seven cases now disposed of in New Orleans,
one (Joseph Fisher) resulted in conviction and sentence
to eighteen months in the Penitentiary; five (those
enumerated above) resulted in pleas of guilty; and
one (Abe Shushan) resulted in an acquittal, or a total
of six cases won out of seven disposed of.
There are remaining in this series of cases indict-
ments against Joseph Haspell (recognized as an anti-Long
man); Jules Fisher (a member of the State Legislature and
a relative of Joseph Fisher, already convicted); Seymour
Weiss, Nick Fernandez, The Hartwig Moss Insurance Agency,
which is a conspiracy charge involving Joseph Myers,
Seymour Weiss and Mike Moss; the Louisiana Cuarry Company,
which is a conspiracy charge involving R. S. Wilson,
Seymour Weiss, c. D. Nichols and H. S. Schiff; and the
Mississippi Valley Company, which is a conspiracy involving
202
-2-
John P., Harry B. and 1. N. Nelson.
The Louisiana Quarry Company case and the Mississippi
Valley Company case are set for trial in June before Judge
Borah, and the agents, with the United States Attorney,
are busily engaged in preparing these cases for trial.
Mr. Burford tells the on the telephone this morning that
there are rumors around that Haspell, Fisher and Fernandez
may possibly plead guilty. If this happens and the two
cases set for trial in June are disposed of, that will
leave one conspiracy case (The Hartwig Moss Insurance
Agency) and the individual charge against Seymour Weiss,
to be disposed of.
JA
TREASURY DEPARTMENT
203
INTERNAL REVENUE SERVICE
INTELLIGENCE UNIT
Dallas
New Orleans, Louisiana, May 6, 1936.
(Name of Division)
SI-10513-F
AIR MAIL.
SI-10514-F
SI-10397-F
Personal and Confidential.
Chief, Intelligence Unit,
Bureau of Internal Revenue,
Washington, D. C.
Dear Mr. Irey:
In re: Rudy O'Dwyer,
George O'Dwyer,
C. A. Kenney.
As related to Mr. Woolf by telephone, the three above-
named parties appeared in court and entered pleas of guilty
to all acounts in the indictments and were fined as follows:
C. A. Kenney
$ 1500
Rudy 0'Dwyer
4500
George O'Dwyer
3500
I was advised by United States Attorney Viosca yester-
day afternoon, May 5th, and asked to treat the same in confi-
dence, which I did, that he had been advised by Judge Rufus
E. Foster, senior member of the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals,
that he had been approached as to receiving pleas of guilty
from the gamblers. This morning, just prior to ten thirty,
I was in communication with Mr. Viosca on another matter,
and he advised me that Judge Foster had just sent for him and
asked that I come over. Upon my arrival, the Judge had just
taken the bench, and former United States Attorney Edmond B.
Talbot, who is now occupying the position of Referee in Bank-
ruptcy, and his brother, Harry Talbot, counsel for the above-
mentioned parties, made the statement that they wished to
withdraw their former pleas of not guilty and enter pleas
of guilty to the respective indictments.
- 1 -
Regraded
Unclassified
SI-10513-F; SI-10514-F;
SI-10397-F
204
The United States Attorney asked the Court if he desired
to hear evidence from the agents as to the facts, and he stated
that he did not care to hear such evidence either from the
agents or the United States Attorney, and that the indictments
spoke for themselves. He then said to counsel that he pre-
ferred not to consider sentence until he knew what disposition
they proposed to make of the "unpaid taxes" (this was his
exact language) referred to in the indictments. He made other
references to the charges as failure to pay their taxes.
The Court's attention was then called by the United
States Attorney to the fact that in addition to the taxes
where fraud was alleged, a civil evasion penalty of 50% was
applicable. The Court then stated that that amount should be
added to the tax as shown in the indictment, and that those
sums should be placed with the clerk of the court for the
account of the Collector of Internal Revenue in the form of
certified checks, and that if such was done he had in mind
the imposition of fines. The court was then adjourned for B.
few minutes to afford the defendants an opportunity to carry
out the Judge's expressed wishes. When this was done, he
imposed the sentences above related and committed the defend-
ants to the custody of the Marshal pending the payments of
the fines, which were immediately accomplished.
It has been the practice on occasions, so I am in-
formed, for Judge Foster to hear pleas of guilty during the
absence of Judge Borah, who is at present away on his wedding
trip, and I am informed that a day or two prior to Judge
Borah's departure, at a conference between the United States
Attorney, Judge Borah and Judge Foster, Judge Foster had
stated that he would take care of pleas during Judge Borah's
absence.
It was observed by one of our employees on May 4th that
Attorney Talbot was in conference with Judge Foster, and we
also know that Judge Robert Rivarde, Judge of the 24th Judicial
District of the State of Louisiana, was in conference with
Judge Foster prior to the entering of the pleas. Judge Rivarde
was referred to by others under investigation sometime ago as
having advised them to file amended returns when the investi-
gations were instituted. His district includes Jefferson Parish,
- 2 -
205
SI-10513-F; SI-10514-F;
SI-10397-7
where the O'Dwyers operate their gumbling institutions, and
he is known to be on good terms with them. Upon leaving
the Court, after sentence was imposed, he waved his hand to
Judge Foster, who was then on the bench, and very affably
said "good bye".
Judge Foster stated in connection with the certified
checks which were placed with the clerk of the court that
it was to be understood that the payment of this amount of
money was not to prejudice the taxpayer's rights to secure
an abatement, or refund, of the taxes, or the Government's
right to assert additional taxes, interest and penalties,
in appropriate civil actions. This, of course, was most
unusual, and I suggested to the Assistant United States
Attorneys handling the matter (the United States Attorney
had to leave to take care of private litigation in the State
Courts) that it might be well to discuss that provision
with the Court as it was not making a clean out issue of the
payment of the taxes and was likely to be the basis for
unnecessary civil litigation, but in view of the Court's
stated attitude, they were not inclined to make any mention
of it to him, and did not do so. He stated that judgment
should be prepared accordingly, and there are attached hereto
copies of the receipts given to the defendants in exchange
for these payments, which incorporate that provision, BO far
as the defendants are concerned.
Personally, and without insinuations to anyone, I have
the private opinion that the action which took place today
was in the making agmetime ago.
As an interesting side light, Herman B. Deutsch, a
feature writer for the "Item-Tribune", told me that during
the adjournment while the Court was awaiting the return of
the defendants, with their certified checks, Kenney approached
him with a 350 bill in his hand end attempted to got Deutsch
to accept it as a fee for not giving him a bad write up. This
made Deutsch very furious, but he asked me to treat the matter
in strict confidence.
It is not known whether other defendants will appear
and enter pleas before Judge Borah's return, but you will be
kept advised promptly of any developments
Respectfully,
A. D. Burford,
ADB-em
Special Agent in Charge.
- 3 -
Regraded Unclassified
RED
NEW ORLEANS STATES
COMPLETE
MARKETS
VOL 57-NO, 107-
NEW ORLEANS, LA., WEDNESDAY EVENING, MAY 6, 1936
3 CENTS
FLASH
2 O'DWYERS GUILTY. FINED
Hold Hunter for Harboring Karpis; Bail $200,000
The O'Dwyer brothers valid brandly Wednesday after they hade
pireted milly in violation of the income tax laws and received . fise
at the tandi of Federal Julge lisha R. Forter. In the picture, from
left to right are GEORGE O'DWYER, JUDGE L HOBERT RIVARDE
O'Dwyer Brothers, Their Friend Judge Rivarde
of Jefferson parish, and RUDOLPH by
the New Orisans States).
2 O'DWYERS, KENNEY
PLEAD GUILTY IN U.S.
TAX CASES, PAY FINES
Rodulph and Garge L O'Dwyer,
fail when they glood milly imims a
Interests gettiblers, and
and Julip
Country A. Kenney, Bt. Dermant
Fuster.
would
2
disposed
#
in-
perside punkler, charged with mulia
I
fines
railber
than
of Income Taxes for the year on
30-31, appoared before Federal Julier
What Each Mast Pay
Efford
M
Refue E. Fonten Websiter mining
Tallet,
attorney
for
and pleased gillty in the charges.
the three - was instructed by
The plan of pilty radie as a -
Tube Forter M childs certified
pleta surgettee 44 the trial of Kenny
checks for the ements due the
had month been purposed because
and present them in
must,
at the sisence of Federal Zidge
Wayne G. Break, who la - his -
The emerante - $0,701.82 to
enera Judge Fater, a mander
$20,541.29 fir
et
the
(Prilt
mont
=
George L O'Diwyer, and BRITEN
appeale,
as-
insured
that
for Courtney A.
the
pine
of
analy
would
I
accepted
O'Dwyer was finid less,
is
parment
of
the
-
which
tale herther, Genege, - and
the
pressured
My,
darge is doe the - plan
a se - - penalty.
The Name von paid with
I devi Intere to withing THAN a
Continued
Page
Two
/ : E
Courthey A. Kenney. operator of
the Arabi C/UB In St. Bernard par-
Mills, TM Indicted by federal grand
Jury on November 15, 1994. on
ANS STATES
charges of sttempting to evade In-
come taxes of 65076.64 in 1999. 1930
and 1981 According to the Indict-
ment, in 1929, Kenney reported gross
O'DWYERS, KENNEY
b
income of $9000, net of 50026, on
which he paid an income tax of
$48.65: wherese gross was $15,980.15,
net $17,736.30, tax due $479.67: in
'GUILTY,' ARE FINED
1930. he reported grown of $6520, net
of $0723.24, paid $27.73; whereas
gross was $45,261.23, net $45,002.76.
tax due $4004.85; in 1931, be report-
ed. A gross community income of
Pay Full Levies Demanded
$15,100, paid $101.82 and same
Amount for his wife; whereas gross
by U. S., Plus 50 Per
Was $59,601.28, net $56,140.50, tax
due from each $1834.35.
Cent Penalty
Rudolph T. O'Dwyer and George
Dwyer, operators of the Original
Club, were indicted by
Continued from Fly Sheet
Interal grand jury on February 13.
1904, on charges of attempting to
checks and the fines with personal
evado income taxes for 1929, 1990
checks by the men.
aivil 1931 of follows: Rudelab. 429.-
There was a spirit of levity prev-
20167; George, $22,300.02 According
alent throughout the pleading of
" the indictment:
guilty by the three men.
Mudolph O'Dwyer, in 1929, report-
mail gross of $10,461.19, net of $0386.19,
When the offer of a plea of guilty
paid $02.60; wherese gross was $02,-
was made by Mr. Talbot to Judge
$23,51, net $90,254.50, the due $12,-
Foster he was teld to "@0 out end
$25.15) in 1930, he reported gross of
draw certified checks and I will Im-
$14,810.81, net of $13,735.51, paid
pose sentence."
$376.07: whereas gross was $77,688.24,
"These cases could have been
net $73,457.41, tax due $9639.46; in
compromised after Indictment," add-
1931, be reported gross of $14,834.10,
ed Judge Foster. "Are you prepared
net of $12,803.29. paid $641,75: where-
to make payment?"
as gross was $63,631.12, net $60,-
"Yes, sir, we can give bona fide
654.06, tax due $7041.
checks right now," replied Mr. Tal-
George O'Dwyer in 1929 filed no
bot.
return: whereas gross was $41,-
"Yes, but you could stop payment
774.88, net $43,791.59. amount due
pn those checks, though I don't say
9550.92 and an equal amount from
you would," replied Judge Foster.
wife, on community return basis; in
"Ed, you get those checks certified
1930, he reported gross of $16,687.
and come back here. I will be here
net of $16,317. paid $658,41: where-
all day because I have to remain in
as gross was $61,68. net $58,889.74
court."
tax due $6685.59; in 1901, he reported
Mr. Talbot, accompanied by his
gross of $14,366.90. net of $14,214.90,
clients, Immediately left the build-
paid $727.13: where gross was $96.-
Ing to have the checks certified and
602.31, net $94,292.05, tax due $14.-
returned & short time later.
670.76.
Karger Brothers Cases Pend
The checks are made payable to
the order of the court and will be
deposited In the registry of the court
and held for the collector of inter-
nal revenue for the eastern district
of Louisiana.
"Am I to understand that we still
reserve our civil rights?" asked Mr.
Talbot.
"Certainly. you could naver waive
that right," replied Judge Foster.
The Dwyers and Menney were in-
dicted some time ago on charges of
sttempting to evade payment of In-
come tax. Mars and Manasse Kar-
ger, also Jefferson parish gamblers,
who at one time were partnera of
the O'Dwyers, are also under Indict-
ment on similar charges.
THE NEW ORLEANS ITEM
fty-Ninth Year-331
Wednesday Evening, May 6, 1936
Price 3 Cents
C
Baton Rouge Bridge C
D'Dwyers, Kenney Plead Guilty; Fined
Regraded Unclassifi
Gamblers
Gamblers Go To Court; Walk Out Free Men
Freed In
Tax Fraud
Three Pay U.S.
On Evaded
Levv
Courtney A. Kenney, operator of
the Arabi club in St. Bernard par-
ish and Rudy and George O'Dwyer,
or the Original Southport Inn. all
prominent New Orleans gamblers
pleaded guilty before Federal Judge
Rufus E Foster today, agreed to pay
government their delinquent In-
e taxes plus all penalties. and
were assured of no Jall sentences
by the court.
Kenney was the first to pay off
his debt to the government and
stood before the bench awaiting
sentence.
"We don't want to put this on B
gerentage basis, Mr. Kenney." said
Judge Foster, a twinkle in his eye.
1 guess $1.500 will be enough.
that's the fine."
George O'Dwyer who next pre-
tried his certified check to the
Yist received a fine of $3,500. His
Reginer. Rudy, followed. and was
AS
$4,500.
AM the fines were paid. and the
Whe walked out of court free of
all charges.
Foster Hears Pleas
The three gamblers were repre-
by Edmond E. Talbot, referee
unicruptes and former U. S. At-
here Judge Foster heard the
m the absence of District
Pulice Wayne G. Borah who is
on his honeymoon
Han the pleas had been entered.
a Faster said:
There cases could have been
Promised even after an indict-
1 do not believe in jail sen-
us tax cases where the
and sought by the government
submily paid to the collector.
A Laugh Brought Out
Candid camera shots when Judge Rufus E.
over a certified check for back taxes plus
Talbot then announced that
Foster (ined Courtney Kenney, Rudy O'Dwyer,
$1500 fine. AL the right, GEORGE O'DWYER,
were ready to turn over
and George O'Dwyer, after the latter had
surrounded by attorneys, as he stood before
checks to the registry of
for the taxes owed plus
pleaded guilty to charges of Income tax
the bar. Below, left to right, GEORGE
Defullies, pointing out at the
exasion. Above at the left, COURTNEY KEN-
O'DWYER, JUDGE ROBERT RIVARDE. of the
No time that each defendant was
NEY. standing beside his attorney. EDMOND
Jefferson district. and RUDY ODWYER. leave
filled to credit for sums paid to
TALBOT, before Judge Foster. as he turned
ing the Federal building.
CONTINUED ON NEXT PAGE
Regraded Unclassified
#RD,UOU,
Gamblers Plead, Fined And Freed
(CONTINUED FROM PAGE ONE)
concealed an income amounting to
come tax evasion was handed down.
approximately $88,000. He operated
Rudy O'Dwyer was charged with
the collector since the investigation
the Arabl club for 15 or 18 years
evading payment of a tax of $29.-
began.
and was in charge of the club at
280.07 on an alleged gross income
"Well," drawled the court, "you
the time the late Huey P. Long
of $233,525.17 and his brother,
could stop payment on checks, you
made his sensational gambling raids
George, with evading payment of
know: but then I guess you wouldn't
in St. Bernard parish. Among gamb.
$22,333.32 In income taxes on a gross
do that."
ling patrons he has many warm
Income of $204,918.78 for 1929, 1930
In the laughter that followed he
friends who vouch for him M being
and 1931.
added: "Go shead and get the
"on the aquare."
The O'Dwyers were associated
checks certified. Make them pay-
The O'Dwyer brothers were in-
with the Kargers in the operation
able to Rufus W. Fontenot and
dicted last February. the true bill
of Club Forest in Jefferson parish,
then we'll talk about sentences."
being returned on the same day
and for years before Club Porest
What They Are Paying
that the indictment charging Ma-
opened, operated the Original
With the penalties Included each
name and Marks Karger with in-
Southport Inn.
of the three defendants paid In ad-
dition to the fines:
Kenney-$10,117.78.
Father Goes To See Son
British Red Cross
Rudy O'Dwyer-$42,741.93.
George O'Dwyer-$32,541.29.
First Time In 40 Years
Leader Dies Of Wounds
Kenney was scheduled for trial on
(By The Associated Press)
(By The Associated Press)
June 1, just as soon 35 Judge Borah
RONAN, Mont. May 6-A Mr.
LONDON, May 8.-Dr. A. J. Melly,
returns from his brief vacation.
Noble arrived from Sac City, Iowa,
leader of the British ambulance
Their pleas of guilty are the first
and immediately asked the post-
such pleas since government agents
master If be knew a Ronan citizen
unit in Ethiopia, who was wounded
began their sweeping investigation
named R. C. Noble. The postmaster
Bunday during native riots in Addia
of Income tax evasions in Louisiana.
did, and would take him to his home.
Ababa, died last night in the Brit-
Has Many Friends
When he SAW the Town visitor R.
ish legation, his relatives were in-
Kenney was indicted In Novem-
C. Noble exclaimed: "Why dad.
formed officially today.
ber, 1934, the true bill charging eva-
where did you come from?"
Dr. Melly was shot in the lungs
tion of $8,076.84 in income taxes
It was their first meeting in 40
Sunday afternoon while dragging
during 1929, 1930 and 1931, that he
years.
wounded in from the streets.
Regrade