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Luncheon with Prime Minister Noboru Takeshita of Japan, February 2, 1989 (3 of 3)
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428079829
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Luncheon with Prime Minister Noboru Takeshita of Japan, February 2, 1989 (3 of 3)
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Records of the National Security Council (George H. W. Bush Administration)
Presidential Memcon Files
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1989-02-02
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1989
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ECRET
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
0438
SECRET
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
SUBJECT:
Luncheon with Prime Minister Noboru Takeshita
of Japan (U)
PARTICIPANTS:
U.S.
The President
James A. Baker III, Secretary of State
Nicholas Brady, Secretary of the Treasury
Robert Mosbacher, Secretary of Commerce
Carla A. Hills, United States Trade
Representative
John H. Sununu, Chief of Staff
Brent Scowcroft, Assistant to the President
for National Security Affairs
Robert M. Gates, Deputy Assistant to the
President for National Security Affairs
Michael Armacost, Under Secretary of State
for Political Affairs
Gaston J. Sigur, Assistant Secretary of State
for East Asian and Pacific Affairs
James A. Kelly, NSC, Notetaker
Mrs. Fumiko Gregg, Interpreter
Japan
Prime Minister Noboru Takeshita
Sousuke Uno, Foreign Minister
Tatsuo Murayama, Minister of Finance
Ambassador Nobuo Matsunaga
Ichiro Ozawa, Deputy Chief Cabinet Secretary
Takakasu Kuriyama, Deputy Foreign Minister
Tatsuo Arima, Director-General for North
American Affairs, MOFA
Terusuke Terada, Private Secretary of the
Prime Minister
Yukio Okamoto, Director, First North American
Affairs Bureau, MOFA
Shinichi Nishimiya, Interpreter
DATE, TIME
February 2, 1989, 12:22-1:25 p.m.
AND PLACE:
Family Dining Room, The Residence
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The luncheon began with the President again welcoming the Prime
Minister to the White House. The President commented on the
departure after a remarkable period of service of Ambassador Mike
Mansfield and the presence of his designated successor, Under
Secretary Mike Armacost. He appreciated the prompt agrement that
had been granted by the Government of Japan, and noted that
Ambassador Armacost had worked for many years on problems of
Japan and Asia. The President expressed high confidence in Mr.
Armacost's ability to do a good job. (U)
The Prime Minister responded that Mr. Armacost's appointment had
generated large headlines in Japan and that the reaction was most
agreeable. (U)
The President then introduced other Americans at the table,
particularly commenting on the experience and background of
Secretary Mosbacher and Ambassador Hills. Following these
introductions, the President introduced the subject of relations
with the Soviet Union. He asked the Prime Minister to express
his own views -- whether he was relaxed or tense and how he saw
the changes that are developing in the Soviet Union. (f)
Prime Minister Takeshita replied that he was trying to bring
President Gorbachev to Japan and that had been the focus of
Japanese efforts so far. He noted that Japan had not concluded a
peace treaty with the Soviet Union, and that this was an
important objective. Foreign Minister Uno had visited the Soviet
Union the previous May. With respect to perestroika, the
Japanese welcomed this restructuring but had felt little of it SO
far. The Prime Minister pointed out that it did not seem to be
aimed in Japan's direction, even though a breeze seemed to be
blowing. He asked Foreign Minister Uno to explain further. ($)
Foreign Minister Uno noted that since 1945 four prime ministers
of Japan had visited the Soviet Union, but there had been no
equivalent visit from that country to Japan. He said if the
Soviets want reductions in tensions and want real progress in the
relationship, it is their turn to come to Tokyo. The Soviet
Union is an important neighbor with which Japan would like to
have improved relations. The first priority is the peace treaty,
but to obtain that peace treaty it is necessary for Japan to get
back the Northern Territories. Those islands are inherent
Japanese territory, the Russians are told this on every occasion.
($)
Foreign Minister Uno continued that in his talks with Foreign
Minister Shevardnadze, they had spent hours in reviewing the
history of the territorial issue. History books bore out that
only during the Stalinist period had the ownership of these
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islands changed hands. As a matter of fact, the Soviet Union had
come to the islands after August 15, 1945, even after World War
II had been concluded. Uno noted that Shevardnadze's view of
history doesn't agree with that of Japan's. Shevardnadze says
that the Soviet Union is ending its isolation and he places the
emphasis on economic cooperation. He wants the islands
forgotten. Uno noted that Japan and the Soviet Union are not
unengaged, that talks continue and that at the end of March he
expects to have a working group convened at the vice ministerial
level. Deputy Foreign Minister Kuriyama will be the interlocutor
for the Japanese side. After that, Uno expects to meet
Shevardnadze again during May. ($)
Secretary Baker recalled that in an earlier meeting with the
Prime Minister on the edges of an OECD meeting, that he had
commented that the Soviet request for economic cooperation
essentially was dependent on resolution of the Northern
Territories issue. He asked if that was still the situation. ($)
The Prime Minister said that it was. (U)
The President commented on the changed public perception of the
Soviet Union, particularly noted in Europe. People there seem to
be more trusting of Gorbachev, and look at the United States in a
less trustful manner. He asked how the Prime Minister saw this
with respect to Japan. ($)
Prime Minister Takeshita said that he is aware that an improved
mood toward the Soviet Union does exist. But beyond the matter
of mood, he felt that perestroika had not changed very much. His
impression was that people see Gorbachev as a different person
than his predecessors. They are looking carefully, however, to
see that the image becomes policy. Takeshita said Japan's
private and industrial sector is, of course, very familiar with
Siberian interests. But there is a great deal of business
uncertainty with respect to actual prospects. There are doubts
about investments in a socialist country, doubts about the
exchange value of the currency, and concerns for legal rights.
As a result, Japanese industry views of business prospects in
East Asia are not particularly optimistic. Without even a
currency that can be converted, it is not easy to have such a
complex relationship and it is a task to improve the situation. ($)
Foreign Minister Uno interjected concerning the Northern
Territories. Etorofu, the largest of the islands, is only about
the size of Shimane, the prefecture from which Takeshita came.
He said Kunishiro, the second island, is somewhat bigger than
Okinawa, and the four together are roughly equivalent in size to
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Chiba Prefecture, an area near Tokyo. (U)
President Bush asked about the demographic mix of population on
the islands. (U)
After some reflection, Deputy Foreign Minister Kuriyama commented
that this consisted of 40,000 Soviet troops. There were 10,000
persons on the islands in 1944, 99% of whom were Japanese.
However, with the Russian occupation, all were repatriated to the
Japanese mainland, and there are only Russians and Russian troops
there now. (c)
Foreign Minister Uno continued vigorously. He noted that in
1855, Japan had much of the Russian Far East, and that an
agreement had swapped the Kurile Islands and Sakhalin. The
agreement did not include, he pointed out, the Northern
Territories. Uno had pointed out to the Soviet leadership that
if the present regime of President Gorbachev is critical of
Stalinism, that this can be rectified by return of the Northern
Territories to Japan. ($)
Prime Minister Takeshita noted that Sino-Soviet relations were
also significantly improving but he did not envision anything
approaching what had been the relationship of the 1950's. He
pointed out that the President knows much more than he does about
China and that he believes it is a very good thing that the
President is going to China and Korea. The Prime Minister noted
that he had traveled to China last summer and he felt that there
was a real commitment to economic reform. ($)
The President replied that he appreciated very much the Prime
Minister telling him that he approved of the visit to China. The
President did not want to send any signal which would diminish
the importance of his visit to Japan or affect the solemnity of
the occasion. Therefore, he appreciated these remarks. The
President continued that he wanted to express the proper respect
of the United States and was happy to hear that his visit to
China would not detract from that feeling. ($)
The President spoke about China, noting that its reforms cannot
and must not be reversed, and that he felt his visit would simply
be another point of encouragement to the Chinese. It would be
very much against the interests of Japan and the United States if
China and the Soviet Union ever returned to the relationship they
had in the Kruschchev era, an event he considered most unlikely.
He said that China, as the Prime Minister knows, states that its
relationship with the Soviet Union will improve, but considers
impossible any return to the earlier kind of relationship with
the Soviet Union. The President noted that he had no concern for
Gorbachev visiting China in May of this year. There was nothing
to the detriment to the United States or Japan interests that
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would result from such a visit. ($)
The Prime Minister responded that he very much agreed on China;
that among other elements the vast reservoir of overseas Chinese
helped to make China much more adaptable to reforms than the
USSR, and more adaptable to a market system. But even with that
said, there are still very serious problems in moving toward a
market economy. For example, inflation has become a most
contentious issue in China.
Prime Minister Takeshita said that the President may have heard
of his "International Cooperation Initiative" plan for economic
cooperation which has three pillars. The Prime Minister
described the first pillar as cooperation for peace, including
such items as financial contributions to the United Nations for
refugee relief, and the use of Japanese nationals as well as
financial assistance to facilitate peacekeeping. (f)
The second pillar is cultural cooperation. This reminded him to
express deep thanks to the United States for the effort it had
made in the past with respect to Fulbright scholarships. The
Prime Minister noted that at the Toronto Summit he had been
assisted by two senior officials, the Vice Minister of Finance
and the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs, who was now the
Ambassador to Canada. Each had been Fulbright scholars whose
work had made the Prime Minister's poor mind "fully bright. " The
Prime Minister said that there was much more emphasis now in
Japan on receiving visiting students, particularly from other
Asian countries, including substantial numbers from China. He
had seen some last year in the western part of China who were
putting their educations to good use. (U)
The third pillar of the International Cooperation Initiative,
explained the Prime Minister, is the increase in ODA, or Overseas
Development Assistance. He had recently announced a 7.8 per cent
increase in the ODA budget as part of the five-year plan which
will double the overall budget for ODA to about $50 billion.
Much of the Japanese assistance, said the Prime Minister, had
been to countries such as the Philippines and Indonesia, but
there is a new effort to reach beyond Asia. He said he would
consult closely with the United States on the reach of Japanese
financial assistance into Latin America, and into Africa. The
Prime Minister saw these efforts as being in return for the
assistance that used to be provided to Japan. Now as a creditor
nation, certain roles and responsibilities were the kind of thing
that a creditor nation must bear. This third pillar of
cooperation includes not only direct aid, but recycling of funds
from the trade surplus for work on the debt problem, some of
which would be touched upon in the G-7 meeting, which was to
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convene later on the same day. Finance Minister Murayama will
continue to consult on these questions.
President Bush responded that as he had mentioned previously, the
ODA increase is impressive indeed. He well remembered the
importance of this announcement when it was made at Toronto at
last year's economic summit. But, the President continued, it is
critical that much of this aid not be tied to commercial projects
where it will not help to resolve the trade imbalances which
continue to exist. (
The Prime Minister said that the Foreign Minister is looking
towards untied aid. As a result, part of such discussions, in
areas of the world in which Japan does not have first-hand
expertise, would be channeled through multinational
organizations. This would help to keep this aid untied. (f)
The President asked the Prime Minister what Latin American
countries he expected to visit on his trip later this year. (U)
After much discussion on the Japanese side, the Prime Minister
said that Mexico was of particular interest to him, but that the
others had not yet been fully decided.
(c)
The President said that the Prime Minister's interest in that
side of the American border would be very well received. (U)
Prime Minister Takeshita noted that the meeting and lunch had
been frank, and were a wonderful exchange of confidences.
Various issues had been touched, including Third World debt
problems and drugs. It would be a good idea, the Prime Minister
said, if the two leaders designated Minister Uno and Secretary
Baker to oversee the work of the two governments on these and in
various fields. They could pursue new initiatives. (U)
The President said that he agreed. (Note: The context does not
suggest agreement to a new or separate framework of talks.) The
President continued that this is the first visit of Prime
Minister Takeshita to Washington. He hoped he felt the warmth
and the importance of this relationship. (U)
Prime Minister Takeshita thanked the President very deeply for
inviting him so soon and expressed pride at being so thoughtfully
received. He hoped that the President could, before too long, at
any time of his choosing, make a state visit to Japan. He
officially invited him. (U)
The luncheon concluded and the two leaders moved outside for the
departure statements. (U)
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