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Originally Processed With FOIA(s): FOIA Number: S FOIA MARKER This is not a textual record. This is used as an administrative marker by the George Bush Presidential Library Staff. Record Group/Collection: George H.W. Bush Presidential Records Collection/Office of Origin: Speechwriting, White House Office of Series: Snow, Tony, Files Subseries: Subject File, 1988-1993 OA/ID Number: 13897 Folder ID Number: 13897-010 Folder Title: [Pan Am Flight 103-News Stories, 1991] Stack: Row: Section: Shelf: Position: G 18 29 2 5 Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 2 2ND STORY of Level 1 printed in FULL format. Copyright (c) 1991 Reuters The Reuter Library Report February 20, 1991, Wednesday, BC cycle LENGTH: 318 words HEADLINE: U.S. SENATE VOTES FOR DEATH PENALTY FOR TERRORIST MURDERERS DATELINE: WASHINGTON, Feb 20 KEYWORD: USA-TERRORISM BODY: The Senate voted on Wednesday to amend U.S. law to allow the death penalty for terrorists who murder Americans either abroad or in the United States. An attempt by opponents of capital punishment to kill the proposal was defeated by a 74-23 vote. The legislation, attached as an amendment to a bill revising export control law by Pennsylvania Republican Arlen Specter, builds on current law extending the reach of American justice overseas where Americans come under terrorist attack. Current law imposes life imprisonment for terrorist murder. Specter recalled that many Americans had died in extremist acts abroad in recent years, including 189 Americans among the 259 passengers killed in the Pan-Am 103 bombing over Lockerbie, Scotland, in 1988. He noted that the extraterritorial reach of U.S. law had been used when FBI agents apprehended an alleged terrorist on a boat in the Mediterranean and brought him to the United States to face trial. Earlier the U.S. Senate approved a Specter amendment that would provide for criminal and civil penalties for foreign persons who produce, transport or use biological or chemical weapons that kill, maim or injure U.S. nationals abroad. The parent bill imposes sanctions on countries that have used chemical or biological weapons in violation of international law and individuals who help these nations to acquire or use such weapons. Chemical weapons were used by both sides during the Iran-Iraq war. The bill was identical to one President George Bush vetoed last year, saying it did not give him enough flexibility in enforcement of the sanctions. The veta came during the congressional adjournment 50 Congress had no opportunity to try to override. The House of Representatives had passed the measure by a majority well in excess of the two-thirds needed to override a veto. In the Senate 79 members had urged Bush not to veto the legislation. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXISNEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 20 3RD STORY of Level 1 printed in FULL format. Copyright (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation; Federal News Service NOVEMBER 14, 1991, THURSDAY SECTION: STATE DEPARTMENT BRIEFING LENGTH: 7149 words HEADLINE: STATE DEPARTMENT REGULAR BRIEFING BRIEFER: RICHARD BOUCHER BODY: MR. BOUCHER: Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Again, thank you for your patience and for waiting. Unless somebody wants me to do something else, I thought I'd start off talking about Pan Am 103. Q -- the government's theme today, so go ahead. MR. BOUCHER: I think it's your theme, too, Ralph. You've seen the briefings by the Justice Department on the indictments and the criminal responsibility for the bombing of Pan Am 103. We've made available to you and have in the press office the indictment itself and a paper on the Libyan government's continuing support for terrorism. I want to run through some basic facts about the bombing and how it was organized. I want to make some things clear from the outset. The bombers were Libyan government intelligence operatives. This was a Libyan government operation from start to finish. We hold the Libyan government responsible for the murder of 270 people over Lockerbie, Scotland, on December 21st, 1988. Today, Scottish authorities and the US Department of Justice charged two Libyan officials with carrying out the December 1988 bombing of Pan Am 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people aboard the aircraft and 11 people on the ground were killed. The charges are based on evidence that directly and conclusively links Abdel Al-Basset Al-Megrahi, a senior Libyan intelligence official, and Lamen Fhimah, the former manager of the Libyan Airlines office in Malta, and other unidentified co-conspirators to the suitcase containing the bomb and to its insertion into the baggage system leading to Pan Am flight 103. The evidence also directly links Al-Megrahi to the Swiss company that manufactured the sophisticated electronic timer used in the attack. The timer is unique; it's produced solely by a single Swiss firm. And the entire production lot was delivered to the Libyan external security organization. Two intelligence operatives were indicted. But don't mistake this. The bombing of Pan Am 103 was not a rogue operation. An operation of this magnitude, involving people so close to the Libyan leadership, could only have been undertaken with the approval of senior Libyan officials. That is the pattern of past Libyan terrorist operations. That is the pattern of the Pan Am 103 attack. Al-Megrahi is a well-connected senior Libyan intelligence official whose extensive experience in the field of civil aviation, cargo movement, and small business operations helped him stage the Pan Am 103 bombing. Al-Megrahi works closely with his first cousin, Said Rashid (ph), a leading architect and implementer of Libya's terrorist policies and a powerful member of Libya's inner circle. It was Rashid (ph) who earlier purchased the timer. Abdullah Al-Sinusi (ph) was Al-Megrahi's immediate supervisor in the external -- the external security organization in the fall of 1988. French judicial LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 21 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 authorities have lodged criminal charges against Al-Sinusi (ph) for the September 1989 bombing of UTA-772. Ibrahim Al-Bishari, currently Libya's Foreign Minister, used Al-Megrahi's office at the Swiss firm as an accommodation address in Zurich and claimed that Al-Megrahi worked directly under him as director of the Center for Strategic Studies. The terrorist case against the Libyan regime does not begin or end with the destruction of Pan Am 103. We've seen a consistent pattern of Libyan-inspired terrorism that continues to the present. The charges made today, however, are based solely on the evidence gathered during the criminal investigation. The Libyan government is responsible for this monstrous act, the murder of 270 citizens of 21 countries in the bombing of Pan Am 103. We're in touch with our friends and allies regarding steps the international community should take to ensure that action is taken to punish the government of Libya in a way which will deter others. With that -- Q Richard, are alleging that Libyan leader Mu'ammar Qadhafi was personally responsible, that it has reached the highest offices of the Libyan government? MR. BOUCHER: I think 1 said to you, Frank, that we don't think that an operation of this magnitude could have been carried out without approval and consent of the senior Libyan leadership. I have named names of people against whom we have clear and compelling evidence of having conducted the bombing. Q Richard, as you -- MR. BOUCHER: We'll probably hear an opening statement when we're done with this briefing. We'll have to clean it up, but we'll make it available as soon as possible. Q As you know, the families are extremely unhappy with certain aspects of this indictment because there is no mention of Syria, Iran, Ahmed Jibril, the PFLP-GC, so on and so forth. And they accuse the US government of being so interested in getting Syria engaged in the Gulf war, 50 interested in getting Syria to the peace process, that the US is no longer interested in pressing the case against Syria's active involvement in support of terrorism. How do you respond to their accusations? MR. BOUCHER: John, that's not the case. There was no political influence over this indictment. We followed the evidence where it led, and let me describe to you where the evidence - the ways in which the evidence did not lead to the PFLP-GC. You have to bear in mind that the indictments have to be based on clear evidence, not supposition. In this case, there is no evidence linking the PFLP-GC to the bombing of Pan Am 103. The possibility that the PFLP-GC was responsible for this particular act was exhaustively investigated. It's clear that in the fall of 1988, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine General Command planned a series of terrorist attacks targeted at civil aviation. As you know, that organization has historically operated from Syria. In 1988 the organization began to receive significant operational support from Iran. Our conclusion, as fully reflected in the indictment, is that all the evidence shows the culpability of Libyan officials for this specific act. The strongest evidence in that regard is the timer in the Pan Am 103 bomb. It was unquestionably a Libyan timer, a clear Libyan signature. The PFLP-GC radio bomb was significantly different from the bomb used in Pan Am 103. It's also our conclusion that the arrest of the PFLP-GC operatives in Germany in the fall of 1988 derailed that group's efforts to attack civil aviation. As in any criminal matter, however, the possibility remains of additional evidence and additional information. And I can state categorically that any such information would be pursued aggressively. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 22 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 Q It is also believed by some intelligence officials that once the effort in 1988 in Germany was derailed, that they handed over information and intelligence to the Libyans so they could proceed. You have found no such link? MR. BOUCHER: We considered the possibility, particularly the possibility that the timer might have been borrowed from Libya. However, there's just no evidence to support that kind of speculation. All the evidence in the case conclusively demonstrates that the operation that destroyed Pan Am 103 was carried out by Libyan operatives. Q Is Syria still on the terrorist list? Are you debating removing Syria from that list? And what is the bill of particulars regarding Syria and its support of terrorism? Do you still believe they support -- actively support terrorist groups? MR. BOUCHER: The -- first, Syria is still on the terrorism list. No, there's no consideration being given to taking it off. You'll see in our previous reports on the pattern of global terrorism the involvement that leads there. And I think one of the particulars that I would cite is the -- that the PFLP-GC, which I said was involved in terrorist planning back then, we continue to see them as a dangerous terrorist organization that's still a functioning international terrorist organization. It has its headquarters in Syria, and it has ties to Iran, as I just mentioned. Q Speaking of the report on global patterns of terrorism, there hasn't been one issued yet this year. Will it be issued or has a decision been made that this paper substitutes for that and eliminates the other? MR. BOUCHER: I assume this will. I'm trying to remember when it usually comes out. Isn't it early in the year? (Cross talk.) MR. BOUCHER: It comes out early spring, right? Q I thought it comes out in the fall. Q Spring. MR. BOUCHER: I think it comes out in the spring for the previous calendar year. And the one for this year has already been issued. Q Richard, you said that there's a consistent pattern that suggests that these Libyan activities continue to the present. Could you be more specific? MR. BOUCHER: Let me first of all refer you to the paper that we're pulling out, a little booklet that describes Libya's continuing support for terrorism. And then let me hit a couple highlights of that. Going back, to some extent you'll remember some of the incidents that Libya was specifically involved in. In the early '80s they provided passports to the Abu Nidal organization. They conducted the attack on an El Al ticket counter in Vienna Airport, December '85. Libya also sponsored the bombing of the La Belle Disco. I think you're aware of Libya's involvement with the attack -- the attempted attack on Israel in May of 1990. That was what we called the Tiny Star incident, when we put out information on that. Libyan involvement in terrorism today remains extensive. Tripoli is one of the largest financers of terrorists worldwide and it continues to permit terrorist groups to operate at camps throughout Libya. In the booklet you'll 525 a list of the major camps and who works there. In addition, Libya provides terrorist support to various organizations, Abu Nidal organization which is headquartered in Tripoli. Libya provides major training facilities and several hundred million dollars annually. They provided well over one million dollars in 1990 to the PFLP-GC which was responsible for the bombings of two US military trains in Germany in 1987 and 1988. The PLF elements remain based in Libya. This group has a long history of terrorist attacks including the Achille Lauro and as I mentioned the Tiny Star. The provisional IRA continues -- Libya continues to maintain ties with that LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 23 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 group. Libya has ties to the PKK, the Kurdish separatist group that has carried out numerous attacks on Turkish targets. In addition, there is evidence of Libyan providing at least $7 million since 1987 to the Communist Party of the Philippines and the New Peoples' Army in the Philippines, and the book also mentions ties to the Haitian Liberation Organization, an organization in Costa Rica, the Tupac Amaru in Peru, and the Manuel Rodriguez Patriotic Front in Chile. Q Richard, coming back for a moment to something you said earlier, and I don't -- I wasn't able to write down everything you said about Syria, but when asked about Syria, you talked about our conclusion being that all of the evidence shows the culpability of Libya. Is there any evidence in this case of involvement by Syria? MR. BOUCHER: I think in this particular bombing, not that I am aware of. I think Justice may handle that in more detail at some of their briefings, but the point that I was making was that the PFLP-GC, which is headquartered in Syria, was planning to attack civil aviation. We believe that the arrests by the Germans disrupted those plans, and that this bombing of Pan Am 103 was conducted separately by the Libyans. Q I guess what I am trying to get at is a minute ago you said that $100 million was paid by Libyans to the PFLP-GC in -- MR. BOUCHER: One million. Q I'm sorry, one million, okay -- to the PFLP-GC as recently as 1990. I going to have to go back and see what you actually said. But -- so my question is, if they are continuing to fund the PFLP-GC, is the US government satisfied that the financing aspects of the Pan Am 103 bombing was not in any way tied to Syrians or for that matter -- MR. BOUCHER: No, that's not the point. The point was PFLP-GC has its headquarters in Syria, has ties to Iran, gets funding from Libya, and was planning some attacks on civil aviation. It's just that they didn't do this one. Q You said that you and the international community would be looking at ways of dealing with Libya. Such as? I mean, you already have an embargo. What else can you possibly do to Libya to ostracize it yet further than it's already been ostracized? MR. BOUCHER: Jan, all options are open to assure that those responsible are punished and to deter others from carrying out such attacks. No decisions have been made. Q Richard, the Secretary, during the process of trying to put together a Middle East peace process, extended an invitation to Libya to join in the talks. Is that invitation still open? (Pause.) Q It's a serious question; I'm not joking. MR. BOUCHER: I know it's a serious question, Mary. I don't have any change in that. I have not seen any interest on the part of Libya in participating, either. Q The invitation still stands? MR. BOUCHER: Our invitation to the Arab Maghreb Union and the countries thereof to participate in the peace process if they were interested still stands. And I think you're aware of the countries that have expressed some interest in participating. Q Is there any indication that the intentions of the Popular Front, the PFLP-GC, have changed since the, oh, dozen or so trips the Secretary of State has made to Syria before and after the war? MR. BOUCHER: I guess, Saul, the answer to that is we still see them as a functioning terrorist operation. We, as you know, have had a number of LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 24 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 exchanges with the Syrian government on the subject of terrorism. Q I'm trying to find out whether they've done any good. MR. BOUCHER: Well, let me sort of review the record on this. We've had some frank exchanges with the government of Syria on terrorism matters, including the continuing investigation of Pan Am 103, although the investigation was conducted independently of diplomatic contacts with foreign governments. Syriam officials at the highest levels informed the US that they had conducted their own investigation and had no evidence that Jibril's group did the bombing of Pan Am 103 and the US has no evidence to the contrary. Further, Syrian officials have stated that if they were given such evidence, they would take action against the perpetrators, including the PFLP-GC if that was the party responsible for the bombing. Q But Richard, that's not the point. The point -- okay, so they're not involved in 103. But as you say, they were getting ready to do some other things and presumably they have the same intent. Now I mean, the intent has not changed. They're still a dangerous terrorist organization that had an interruption because of the arrests in Germany. I'm trying to find out whether as a result of our dozen trips to Syria whether Syria has restrained this group in any kind of way 50 that they would not be involved in future 103s. MR. BOUCHER: I guess the only answer I can give to that, Saul, is that we've had a number of exchanges with the Syrian government. AS you know, the Secretary has discussed this during his meetings in Damascus. We, I think, have described before for you the differences that we have over the issue of terrorism with the government of Syria. It's an issue that we continue to pursue, but I don't - you know, I don't have any resolution at this point. Q Has anyone from the US government attempted to deliver to the Libyans at the UN, for example, indictments, warrants, requests for extradition and any of the normal legal, gobbledygook that you have to do to try and get your hands on these guys? MR. BOUCHER: We don't have an extradition treaty with Libya. Q I know, but you would still go ahead and try to --- MR. BOUCHER: We are looking at a range of options as far as possibilities of gaining custody of these people for prosecution. At this point, we have not communicated with the Libyan government. Q You have not communicated with them. MR. BOUCHER: No. Q And would you care to discuss the other possibilities The long arm of the law statute and all of that sort of stuff? MR. BOUCHER: I'm afraid I would not. Q You would not care to. Q The US has a record now of at two cases of using attempting extradition without the permission of the country involved. One in the case of Eygpt, I believe, and then one in the case of Panama. And that's right. There are other cases. That's right. Are those among the options that are open for consideration or are you ruling any of those things out? MR. BOUCHER: We are exploring the entire range of options. We do not however have an extradition treaty with Libya. And there are alternatives to formal extradition. As you point out, our general feeling is that Libya cannot hide behind its internal law as any excuse for avoiding its international obligations. Q Would you the US go so far as to -- as it has in the past to kidnap an individual in mid-air in an attempt to bring them to justice, in the phrase of the US government at the time? MR. BOUCHER: Ralph, I'm not going to talk about particular options at this point. We're exploring a full range of options. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 25 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 Q I don't recall whether you said - I think you said there were consultations with allies. Now that we're accusing the government of Libya of murdering 270 people, I just wondered whether there is going to be some request to the UN to do the same kinds of things economically that the United States did when Kuwait was invaded, whether those are among the options we're considering. MR. BOUCHER: Saul, at this point I'm afraid I just have to tell you that we're discussing a full range of options, we're considering a full range of options. We're starting the process of talking to countries about what the next steps are. We have the evidence and the information that we're sharing with foreign governments. But I don't have anything further to try to examine or explore specific steps at this point. Q Would the United States like to see Libya sort of declared an outlaw state that we think it is? MR. BOUCHER: Again, exactly what form our response and the international response is going to take is something that I'm just not going to speculate on at this point. Q Richard, one of the men you were talking about as being linked to the senior of the two men who was indicted today was - had been -- was indicted 15 days ago or whatever by the French. And you mentioned a number of other people who have not been indicted in this case but who are high officials. Is there any link between the French indictments two weeks ago and these today? MR. BOUCHER: These were independent investigations. Both investigations have independently identified Libyan officials as responsible for the bombings. Our investigation of course continues, and there's some aspects I can't discuss in detail. The French magistrate issued warrants for the arrest of four Libyan officials on October 30th, and we of course respect the independence and judgment of those in the French judicial system. And while the investigation into the bombing of UTA 772 is a separate matter in the hands of French officials, US investigators have been in contact with their French counterparts. I think in a specific sense, the bombers and the individuals who were indicted or charged in these cases were separate. In a more general sense I think you see the Libyan intelligence organization involved in both cases. Q Richard, do you have any new information about the chemical plant which the Libyans are building - Rabta? MR. BOUCHER: Rabta - not I don't, I'm afraid. Q What was the last - Q (Off mike) -- for a while? Q Not yet, not yet. Q In the old days, Libya's principal supplier was the Soviet Union. Do you know anything about the Soviet role, if any, in Libya nowadays? And if the Soviets aren't up to very much, where is Libya getting its military equipment and military technology and that sort of thing? MR. BOUCHER: It's not something I checked on today, George. I really don't have an update. As far as the Soviet relationship with Libya, you'll just have to check with them. Q Just to clear it up, I assume that in saying that there's no evidence of Syrian involvement, that we're also saying there's no evidence of Iranian involvement, indirectly or directly, in 103? Is that -- can you -- MR. BOUCHER: The evidence is in a lengthy indictment and lengthy briefings by the Justice Department. I'm not going to try to rehash everything that's in there. The ties to the PFLP-GC by Syria and Iran are clear, but the involvement -- there's no evidence to say the PFLP-GC was involved in this bombing. Q And there's no evidence that the Libyans were doing this at the behest of Iran. MR. BOUCHER: Yeah, that's not part of the evidence. EXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 26 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 Q Is the US considering anything with regard to the World Court on dealing with this, or is that not -- MR. BOUCHER: Well, I'm afraid I'm just not going to speculate on the future response and the next steps. Q Where there's murder, there's motive. What is the motive? What's the allegation? Why would Libya consider and execute, indeed, as you've charged, such a heinous crime? MR. BOUCHER: I guess there's just a few things to say about that. First, that there's just absolutely no justification for this kind of murder, whatever claims people might make about their motives. We haven't examined Libyan motives, haven't reached any conclusions for that. I would just point out that Libya has a consistent pattern of using terrorism and that this case fits that pattern. Q Richard, when you say that the United States is in touch with French officials and other governments, sharing the information and so on, is the United States doing the same thing with the United Nations in any way? MR. BOUCHER: I'm not aware that we've done anything specifically at the United Nations overnight. Of course, we're in touch with a number of other governments and they are UN members. Q Is the US using the UN as a mechanism in any way to pursue -- well, I mean, you're -- MR. BOUCHER: Ralph, you keep trying to draw me into what we're doing about the next steps. Q Only because you said that you were consulting with other governments. MR. BOUCHER: I said we're in touch with other governments. I'm not aware that overnight we've done anything at the United Nations, and I'll stop there. Q Can you tell us about how many other governments you've been in touch with overnight on this case, or which other governments? That might be enlightening. MR. BOUCHER: No, I'm not in a position to specify (the list ?). Q Is it limited only to the other governments that are directly involved, i.e., those who had nationals on board Pan Am 103, or are there governments that are not directly involved with the bombing? MR. BOUCHER: As we said, there were 21 countries that had nationals on board Pan Am 103. I haven't gone through and compared the lists. We were in touch with a number of other governments overnight. Obviously, we've been in touch -- working closely with British officials and the Scottish authorities throughout this. We've been in touch with the French during the course of their investigation that had similar links to intelligence, Libyan intelligence services. That's about as far as I can go for the moment. & You don't know if you plan a Dilateral effort By the United States in dealing with Italy and France, fur example, about, unce ayain, trying tu yet them to pull back their commercial ties to Libya? You have no particular diplomatic plan at this point to further isolate them? MR. BOUCHER: John, at this point, I have no particular diplomatic plan to announce to you. Q Richard, are you contemplating a -- such -- is the State Department - I know you aren't --- but is the State Department contemplating further action against Libya of that nature, trying to isolate? MR. BOUCHER: Once again, I'm not in a position to get into the next steps -- what we might be contemplating, what we might be planning. We're in touch with other governments, we're talking to them about next steps and what we might do together, and I'm sure the information will come out at the appropriate time. Howard? Q I just find it a little strange why you're not in a position to get into next steps. You have a glossy, white paper with nice, hand-drawn pictures and it's LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 27 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 a real PR campaign, it seems, with the public reading of the indictment and everything. And it would seem that steps would have been prepared, there would have been a certain intent in which direction to go, and I don't understand why you can't communicate that with us. MR. BOUCHER: Howard, I don't know how to answer your question, really. We have - WE now have indictments that were just handed down and announced. We now have evidence and information, voluminous evidence and information, and a large indictment that we can make available to you and to other governments for them to digest and to look at. And we are muw, at that puint, treyinming tu draw the conclusions with other governments on what the future steps should be. Q Well, let me put it another way -- I mean, obviously, because of the narrowness of the indictment, we'd like these people brought to justice, right? MR. BOUCHER: Yeah. & But what would -- but, diplomatically, politically, what would the United -- the United States is accusing Libya uf murdering these people. I mean, that's what you're out here to do. So what would the United States like to see the world do with a government that has murdered 270 people aboard an airliner? MR. BOUCHER: In a general sense, Saul, do exactly what I said before. First of all, obviously --- Q Well, I mean, would you like to see them -- would like to see the rest of the world - would you like -- MR. BOUCHER: -- we want to pursue the judicial process and judicial justice, generally. Q Yeah, I know, but - MR. BOUCHER: Second of all, I said we were talking to other countries about appropriate further steps that would punish Libya for its responsibility and would deter others who might want to do something like that. Q But you're not -- but you're not saying what specifically we'd like -- MR. BOUCHER: I'm not going to specify those steps at this point. Q -- we'd like to see these people do, these countries do. MR. BOUCHER: We're going to talk about those and 52e what we can work out with the other countries. Patrick? Q Richard, American oil companies are still allowed to deal with Libya in the interest of national security, are they not? MR. BOUCHER: I haven't checked on that, I presume that's -- you can get that from the Treasury Department. It's under their regulations. Q I assume you'd like to see the Swiss company stop selling timing devices to Libya, right? MR. BOUCHER: Saul, you can make all kinds of assumptions at this point. When I have a catalog of next steps, or somebody else has a catalog of next steps to announce, we'll just rush up here and tell you right away. Q There's one thing that is missing from this White Paper, and that is any report of any Libyan terrorist activity for the last 15 months. Now, if there hasn't been anything, to what does the United States attribute the sudden quiet on the side --- part of Libya? In '90 is that last thing that's reported in this White Paper. MR. BOUCHER: Somewhere in here - no, I'm not looking for the White Paper, I'm looking for the way to give you the better answer on that. (Pause.) Well, somewhere in here it instructs me to tell you that while we don't have any clear evidence of direct involvement by Libya in terrorist acts for about the past year, we have to remind you first of all that sometimes it takes many years, as it did in this case, to develop that kind of evidence --- and second of all, to point out what is in the booklet -- that Libya continues to operate training LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS`NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 28 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 camps, it continues to offer financial support, and it continues to host a number of terrorist groups. Q Anything to update us on the Haitian refugee question? MR. BOUCHER: I think the Pentagon has gone through this somewhat already, and I'm sure you can get probably more up-to-date information from the Coast Guard on the exact status of the people. Yesterday afternoon, about 480 Haitians were brought ashore from Coast Guard vessels to the US naval base at Guantanamo to receive temporary humanitarian assistance in the form of medical care, food, and lodging. There are over 200 Haitians, many of whom were picked up yesterday, on Coast Guard vessels at sea. We continue to work with the UN High Commissioner for Refugees and a number of other countries to find a solution to this problem. INS personnel aboard the ships continue to conduct detailed interviews with the Haitians. We are doing this with a view towards taking in those who would qualify for asylum. Q Are there any other countries besides Belize that have expressed in interest in keeping some of them? MR. BOUCHER: At this point, I think Belize is the only one that I've seen a public statement from, and I'm not at this point in a position to name other countries who might be interested. Q I'd like to know what's the US policy in relation to the sale of nuclear blasts by a Soviet private company called Cheta (ph) as published by the New York Times last week. MR. BOUCHER: Yeah, I think last week -- let's see. We're in luck. The provision by nuclear weapons states to non-nuclear weapons states of potential benefit to peaceful nuclear explosions is explicitly controlled by Article V of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty. Such benefits are not freely available -- I think the Article said something about to anyone with cash -- (laughs) -- rather the treaty dictates stringent conditions and procedure that would have to be followed. The NPT prohibits the actual transfer of control of any nuclear explosive device to a non-nuclear weapons state. The USSR is a party to the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty and the US government is confident that it fully recognizes its obligations. The US and the USSR are also parties to the Peaceful Nuclear Explosives Treaty which controls such explosions. For our part, the US abandoned its own nuclear -- peaceful nuclear explosion program as uneconomic. However, the USSR has continued to explore applications for such explosions. I don't think I can comment on technical credibility of the idea that was in the report, but we would share some of the concerns expressed about political and environment matters. It is of course essential that any nuclear cooperation with non-nuclear weapons states not contribute to nuclear proliferation, and it would (have?) to follow, if such a thing were to occur, very, very closely these requirements that are stringently laid out in the treaty. Q We have learned - just to be Latin American alone -- that nationals of Brazil, Argentina, Colombia, and Cuba have made business contacts with this Cheta (ph) Company in Moscow. Could you confirm that? MR. BOUCHER: No, I don't have any information on that Q Richard, staying on the Soviet Union, do you have anything further on the hunt for the missing US POW? The American Embassy in Moscow told the BBC this morning that they had not received any orders to send an officer to Kazakhstan and that what you suggested then wasn't true. MR. BOUCHER: My Embassy? (Laughs.) Q Your Embassy in Moscow told us that, yeah. (Laughter.) MR. BOUCHER: Do you have any names? Q (Laughing) -- I can get them for you, Richard, afterwards. MR. BOUCHER: Okay, let me run down at least what they tell us they are doing, LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXISNEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 29 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 which I hope is more authoritative than what you're reporting, Jan. We've obviously been in touch with our Embassy in Moscow. First of all, we don't yet have any confirmation of the claims in the November 3rd "Kommersant" (ph) article. The claims are being investigated fully by the Embassy. For the moment, the Embassy is investigating this report in Moscow with Soviet authorities, and they expect to send an officer to Kazakhstan shortly. So, that's exactly where they stand on this. Q Do you have anything more on this upcoming meeting here at the State Department with a team of Soviet officials? Could you tell us who they're going to be meeting with, and what exactly they're going to be doing? MR. BOUCHER: Okay. The meeting next week will be in Washington on November 20 and 21. This will be the first meeting of the newly formed US-Soviet working group on the future security agenda. The group was first proposed in a speech by Secretary Baker. The purpose of the working group will be to promote greater mutual understanding of the rapidly changing international security environment and of the security challenges each side will be facing in that environment. It will be an informal future-oriented discussion group, rather than a negotiating body dealing with operational matters. The US delegation, which will include US government officials in the security area, will be led by Dennis Ross, Director of the Department of State's Policy Planning Staff. The Soviet team will be led by Aleksandr Yakovlev, a member of President Gorbachev's Presidential Consultative Council. Q Richard, when you say security issues, can you be any more specific at all about what I mean, what -- as far as the United States is concerned, what's on the agenda? MR. BOUCHER: Mary, this is a broadranging group to discuss broad things like changes in the international environment. It's informal. It's future oriented. It doesn't have a specific agenda that I'm aware of of negotiating points or things that have to be worked out. Q Do you have an update on the situation of the -- Q I'm sorry. I'm really sorry. Q Do you have an update on the results of the OAS mission to Haiti? MR. BOUCHER: The mission returned to Washington early this morning. They made an announcement yesterday in Port-au-Prince that I can detail with you. They'1 report to a closed session of the OAS permanent council this afternoon at 3:30. The mission consulted with a wide range of Haitians. They reached an agreement that was announced in Port-au-Prince last night. Briefly, the agreement provides for several things. It provides for talks to take place next week outside of Haiti between Haitian legislators and representatives of President Aristide's government with the objective of reaching a solution to restore constitutional order. It provides for an OAS mission to assess the human rights situation in Haiti and for an OAS team to assess Haiti's humanitarian needs. We applaud the mission for its important accomplishment, and we urge all parties to work constructively to resolve the current crisis. Q Also, does the US have any direct contacts with Cedras, the coup leader? MR. BOUCHER: That's a question I'll have to look into. I'll have to check. Q Do you have anything on the effects of the embargo on Haiti? MR. BOUCHER: Not at this point, no. I think if you look at some of the statements that we've made, I think we've put up copies of statements by our ambassador about the concerns that the embargo is having an effect. Q Has the coup leader signed off on this agreement that these talks will take place next week? MR. BOUCHER: Who has specifically signed off on it down there, I don't know. The OAS mission, as I said, did talk to a wide range of Haitians, both inside LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 30 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 and outside the current regime, and this was the agreement that they reached. Q If it's nobody inside the regime, it doesn't really -- MR. BOUCHER: I assume it is, Chris, but I don't know who signed off on it. The agreement was that talks would take place between the Haitian legislators and representatives of Aristide's government. Q Has the US offered its good offices to host those talks? MR. BOUCHER: I don't have a location for you. The OAS would have to put that out. But I haven't heard if Washington ís being mentioned Q (Off mike.) MR. BOUCHER: Or the United States. I'm not aware that we have, Ralph, or that we've been asked. Q Could you update us on the massacre in East Timor do you have any figures at the moment? MR. BOUCHER: I don't have any new figures. What we've seen is the Indonesian government has announced its intention to launch an investigation into the tragic events in East Timor. We're gratified to see that announcement. We're making our very serious concern known to the government of Indonesia in Jakarta, and by calling in the Indonesian ambassador here in Washington this afternoon. We're urging a prompt and complete investigation, followed by appropriate disciplining of those determined to have used excessive force. In addition, our embassy in Jakarta is sending a team to East Timor early tomorrow to assess the situation. We believe that nothing that may have taken place could justify a military reaction of this magnitude, resulting in such a large loss of life by unarmed civilians. Q Who is their ambassador in DC? MR. BOUCHER: It's - Ambassador Ramly will be meeting with Deputy Assistant Secretary Kenneth Quinn at 2:00 pm. Q Richard, on another area - Q No, before you go to another area, do you have any readouts on the meeting here yesterday of the Portugese Ambassador and the State Department. MR. BOUCHER: No. Q And do you have any comment to the initiative by Senator Claiborne Pell on cutting aid --- military aid to Indonesia, in his words, as a "credible response* to this atrocity? That's what I think the New York Times -- New York Times said. MR. BOUCHER: We -- first of all, we agree with Senator Pell's condemnation of the killings. We share his concern about the situation there. And WE would agree with the sense of the Congress resolution expressing that condemnation. Our military assistance program is -- in fiscal year 1992 is a request for $2.3 million. It's entirely for the training and education of Indonesian military personnel. And we think that a continued and well-focused military assistance program for Indonesia can contribute to the professionalization of the Indonesian military, and these kinds of programs expose the trainees to democratic ideas and humanitarian standards. Q Is there anything you care to tell us about Middle East peace bilateral, multilateral talks? MR. BOUCHER: Nothing new today. Q Any announcements you'd like to -- MR. BOUCHER: Nothing new today. Q -- flood us with? Q Your consultations haven't produced any results at this point? Is that correct? MR. BOUCHER: I think the Secretary, when he talked about it, said we'll give them a period of time more or less on the order of two weeks. We haven't done anything new at this point. LEXIS NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 31 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 14, 1991 Q Richard, what prompted the decision to give Bulgaria MFN? MR. BOUCHER: I have something that I think was just taken from a White House announcement. The President signed a joint resolution extending MFN (tariff ?) treatment to products of Bulgaria pursuant to our bilateral trade agreement. The President said, "In part this resolution is a milestone in our rapidly evolving relations with Bulgaria. My signature on the resolution represents American support of the Bulgarian people's historic decision for democracy, a free market economy and the rule of law." Q How close are you to doing the same for Romania? MR. BOUCHER: I have nothing new on MFN for Romania. I think we expressed last week after -- let's see, after Eagleburger met with Reverend Tokes (sp), I think some of our concerns about the situation in Romania and how that affected MFN. Q Martin Lee of Hong Kong was in town last week and he is sort of requesting United States help in getting democracy for Hong Kong, and he is also questioning why six million people from Hong Kong should be turned over to Communist rule in 1997. He is sort of questioning the whole accord, the British-Chinese accord. Is there any indication that Mr. Baker is going to bring this up with the Chinese and -- that the United States will assist in the democratic minority, politically, in Hong Kong? MR. BOUCHER: I am not familiar with all these statements, so there is really no way I can comment on them. As far as what the Secretary is going to raise in China, I'll leave that for him and the party. Q There is another Asian leader, minority leader, Mr. Sen Wen (sp) of Burma, he is leader of a coalition government in exile, he is the cousin of Ong San Suu Gee (ph) and he is in town today and he is also asking for United States help in getting help for the democratic forces in Burma against the miltary government there. Have you any comment on this or any -- MR. BOUCHER: Again, I didn't know that this gentleman was visiting, I'll try to check and see if we have any meetings scheduled with him. Q Two other tidbits, Richard. First of all, do you by any chance have the name of this alleged US POW who exists in the Soviet Union? Is that published or does the US government have it from talking with the Soviets? MR. BOUCHER: I don't know if that was published or not, Ralph, I'll see if we have the full article that we can make available to you. Q And the second thing is, I am not sure if you already answered this -- sorry? Q (Inaudible) -- in English please. Q I am not sure if you answered this question earlier or not, does the US -- among the nations the US is consulting with on sharing information on the Pan Am 103 indictment, is Libya among them? Is the United States going to in some way interlocute with Libya to either share the information or conduct some discussion about its terrorist role? MR. BOUCHER: Ralph, I think I told John a little while ago we have not communicated with the Libyan government. I don't think there is any point in our telling them what they did, they know what they did. Q (Off mike) -- as a matter of course, wouldn't you simply through some third party ask the Libyans -- MR. BOUCHER: Again, what we may do in terms of next steps, directly or with other governments, I am not going to try to explore with you at this point. At this point we have not communicated with the Libyan government. Q (Off mike) -- communicate with Libya through a third party? MR. BOUCHER: We have Belgium as our protecting power there. Q But the US has not filed a protest through the Belgians with the Libyans or anything like that? MR. BOUCHER: We have not communicated with the Libyan government. Q Thank you. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 38 5TH STORY of Level 1 printed in FULL format. The Associated Press The materials in the AP file were compiled by The Associated Press. These materials may not be republished without the express written consent of The Associated Press. November 14, 1991, Thursday, PM cycle SECTION: Washington Dateline LENGTH: 1273 words HEADLINE: Two Libyans Indicted in Airliner Bombing BYLINE: By JAMES ROWLEY, Associated Press Writer DATELINE: WASHINGTON KEYWORD: Pan Am 103 BODY: Two Libyan intelligence officials have been indicted in connection with the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, which killed 270 people, U.S. and Scottish officials announced today. The White House raised the possibility of retaliatory action against Libya. Spokesman Marlin Fitzwater said it was clear that "higher ups" in Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi's government provided support for the bombing. Scottish officials said the two suspects had been charged with murder and conspiracy. Similar but separate charges were filed in the United States. Scotland's Lord Advocate, Lord Fraser of Carmyllie, said the two are presumed to be in Libya and are unlikely to be "arrested in the normal way." But he said Libyan authorities would be pressed to turn them over for trial. Acting Attorney General William Barr alleged in Washington that the two "planted and detonated the bomb," acting in concert with other unnamed co-conspirators. The two suspects were identified as Abdel Basset Ali Al-Megrahi and Lamen Khalifa Fhimah. Barr described them as "fugitives from justice." The first criminal charges in the case were filed nearly three years after the act of international terrorism horrified the world. The bomb killed all 259 people aboard the Boeing 747 jetliner and 11 on the ground. Pan Am 103 originated in Frankfurt, Germany. The victims, were from 21 countries, and included eight families of four and 16 infants sitting on the laps of their parents. There were 188 Americans. President Bush praised the "very good work" that went into obtaining the U.S. indictments. He said the charges weren't "some quick hit, quick fix on trying to find the answer." LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 39 The Associated Press, November 14, 1991 Asked about the possibility of military action against Libya, Fitzwater said Libya's "consistent pattern or terrorism" under Gadhafi cannot be ignored. "We are considering action and I'll leave it at that," he said. "We don't rule out any option." He said the White House will consult with British Prime Minister John Major and other world leaders "to fashion together the cooperative international response to this latest terrorist atrocity by Gadhafi's government," he said. Saeeb Mujbar, Libya's ambassador to France, called reports of Libyan involvement "a very serious lie." "But there is no proof of it whatsover," he said in a BBC radio interview shortly before the announcement. "We are victims of terrorism and not perpetrators of it." There was no immediate comment from the Libyan Foreign Ministry in Tripoli. Relatives of those killed by the bomb blast called the indictment a good first step but criticized the Bush administration's continued dealings with Syria, which many survivors believe masterminded the plot. "It's great that they've got the gun and the gunman, now who bought the bullets and who masterminded it?" said Kathleen Flynn of McLean, Va., whose son John Patrick, a Colgate University junior, was killed in the blast. Fitzwater said there was no evidence linking Syria or Iran to the bombing and State Department deputy spokesman Richard Boucher stressed: "This was a Libyan government operation from start to finish." Boucher denied suggestions by family members of some victims that the United States decided to exonerate Syria of culpability because of the administration's interest in improved U.S.-Syrian relations. "There was no political influence over this indictment, = he said. Barr described how the bomb was allegedly placed aboard the plane inside a radio, which itself was inside a suitcase shipped as unaccompanied luggage. He described an extraordinary international criminal investigation of "incredible complexity" including analysis of a fragment of plastic explosive "smaller than a fingernail." The announcement of indictments was made with fanfare in Washington, where Barr, FBI Director William Sessions and several of his lieutenants hailed the cooperative investigation with Scottish officials. Barr said he had spoken by telephone with some of the relatives. "The international community must protect itself from this uncivilized terrorism," he added. Authorities in both countries said the investigation was continuing. Barr said it would "be pursued unrelentingly We have the resolve and we have the ability to track down ... those responsible for terrorist acts against Americans." LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 40 The Associated Press, November 14, 1991 In London, British Foreign Secretary Douglas Hurd told the House of Commons, "We expect Libya to respond fully to our demand ... The interests of justice require no less. This was a fiendish act of wickedness." "It is alleged that Megrahi is the senior officer of the Libyan intelligence services, holding positions with Libyan Arab Airlines and was director of the Center for Strategic Studies in Tripoli at the time of these offenses," said Scotland's Fraser. "It is alleged that Fhimah was also an officer of the Libyan intelligence services, holding a position as station officer with Libyan Arab Airlines in Malta," he said. The New York-bound luggage, including the suitcase with the bomb, was transferred to another plane at London's Heathrow Airport before the flight left for the United States. U.S. officials believe the two Libyans' positions with the Libyan airliner enabled them to smuggle the bomb aboard the plane. The airliner has long been known to counter-terrorism officials as a support tool of Libyan terrorist operations. Another relative, Victoria Cummock of Coral Gables, Fla., who lost her husband, John, a marketing executive, said she was uncertain as to whether those indicted could be brought to trial. But if there were a trial, "I don't care where it would be held, I would be there." She was critical of the government for not moving faster. "I think it's amazing that we can sit down at a Mideast peace conference and the murder of 270 people, most of them Americans, is not even on the agenda," she said. In Britain, the leader of a group of relatives of British victims welcomed reports of pending charges but said that "a couple of Libyans are only likely to be small minnows in a very large pond." "What we want to know is why they did it and who put them up to it," said Jim Swire, whose 24-year-old daughter died in the bombing. The worldwide investigation originally focused on the Syria-linked Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, led by Ahmed Jibril. The CIA concluded that Jibril conspired with Iran to attack a U.S. airliner in revenge for the accidental 1988 downing of an Iranian jetliner by the USS Vincennes in the Persian Gulf. The plot was thwarted when Jibril's group in Germany was penetrated by informants and arrested by German authorities in October 1988, said the CIA's former counter-terrorism director Vincent Cannistraro. Jibril appears to have passed on the project to the Libyans in return for a renewal of the subsidy he was getting from them, Cannistraro said. U.S.-Libyan relations had been further eroded by the 1986 U.S. bombing on Tripoli carried out previous acts attributed to Libya. Evidence found in the wreckage led investigators to conclude that the bombing was the work of Libyan agents. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 41 The Associated Press, November 14, 1991 Clothing from the suitcase that contained the bomb was traced to a clothing store on Malta. A fragment of a circuit board found in the bomb wreckage was traced to timing devices that were made for the Libyan intelligence service by a Swissd company in 1985. The fragment was similar to electronic timing devices seized in February 1988 from Libyan agents traveling in Senegal, officials said. Senegal released the Libyan agents in June 1988 without ever formally charging them. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 5 1ST STORY of Level 1 printed in FULL format. Copyright (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation; Federal News Service NOVEMBER 15, 1991, FRIDAY SECTION: SPECIAL TRANSCRIPT LENGTH: 5399 words HEADLINE: THE MCLAUGHLIN GROUP" WITH HOST JOHN MCLAUGHLIN JOINED BY ELEANOR CLIFT, MONA CHARIN, MORTON KONDRACKE AND FRED BARNES FOR BROADCAST: WEEKEND OF NOVEMBER 16-17, 1991 KEYWORD: MCLAUGHLIN GROUP-11/15/91 BODY: ANNOUNCER: From the nation's capital, the McLaughlin Group, an unrehearsed program presenting inside opinions and forecasts on major issues of the day. Sponsored by GE. GE, from satellites to medical systems, at GE we bring good things to life. Here is the moderator, John McLaughlin. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue one, the Libya connection. Libyan terrorists planted the bomb onboard Pan Am Flight 103 that exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland, three years ago, killing 270 persons including 188 Americans, so says Scottish police and the US Justice Department this week, both of whom issued warrants for the arrest of two Libyan intelligence agents who are accused of having acted with the full knowledge and the full consent of Libyan leader Mu'ammar Qadhafi, thus making this heinous act a terrosim -- state sponsored act. (Begin videotaped segement) STATE DEPT. SPOKESMAN RICHARD BOUCHER: A Libyan government operation from start to finish. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Libya denies the charge and says it will not hand over the suspects. LIBYAN AMBASSADOR TO FRANCE: Nobody surrenders his own nationals and this way, surrenders his sovereignty. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: In Washington the White House is working to forge an international response and did not rule out military retaliation. Some of the victims families are also demanding military action, especially as a last resort. BURT AMMERMAN: There is an agreement amongst ourselves that military action is a viable option that must be used, especially if all other options fail. WHITE HOUSE SPOKESMAN MARLIN FITZWATER: We don't rule out any options. We are considering any number of international responses. (End videotaped segment) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Assuming extradition efforts fail and Qadhafi continues to refuse to cough up the terrorists, what action should the United States take? 1 ask you, Mona Charin, and by the way welcome to the program, Mona. That chair has launched a presidential campaign. It will undoubtedly --- (laughter) -- do wonders for you. MS. CHARIN: Maybe it'll launch me into your chair, John. (Laughter) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Another plan of a palace coup. (Laughter) MS. CHARIN: There are two problems with this episode. The first is that LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 6 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 foreign policy is not police work. The second is that the Bush administration has been incoherent in its anti-terrorism policy. On the one hand they have been making kissy-face with the chief terrorist in the world, Hafiz Assad, and at the same time they have the Justice Department indicting the convenient Libyan terrorists. It won't work. The United States should have a policy like Israel has, which is whenever an American is hurt by terrorists, we retaliate instantaneously. There should --- you know, three years later to issue an indictment will scare no one. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Hafiz Assad, by the way, is the leader of Syria, and George Bush has said that Syria had taken a bum rap by having been charged with this terrorist act involving Pan Am 103. Interesting, wouldn't you say? MR. BARNES: Well, that is interesting. Bush is trying to get something out of Syria in the Middle East peace talks, doesn't seem to be getting it, but he still has tried to WOO Assad much more than he should be. I agree with Mona that we need to have a firm terrorist policy that we deal with it swiftly and surely and militarily if necessary. There are other avenues that you can try this time. Now there is a country that used to be the patron and is still very close to Libya and they are supposed to be our buddies now. You know Mikhail Gorbachev, the guy whose altar you worship so frequently, John? MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yes. MR. BARNES: Why not Bush is still propping this guy up, why doesn't he see if he can't get Mikhail Gorbachev to lean on Colonel Qadhafi and get these guys extradited? MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah. I notice you're a little haughty here today, Fred. MR. BARNES: Thanks a lot, John. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You are not intimidated by this Thelma and Louise on my left, are you? I am, Eleanor. MS. CLIFT: Right, yeah, it's hard to be the first anything these days, anymore, but I am pleased to be part of this historic occasion. I had never thought of you as a gender setter but here we are. MR. BARNES: It can't last. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Who knows? MS. CLIFT: Who knows. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: We may have a vacancy for a period, right? MS. CLIFT: Okay, but I do disagree with Mona, well, she might be Pat Buchanan in drag and I am Jack Germond in drag, it's a lot of work, but our views are different, clearly. It seems to me this notion of swift, sure, retaliation is really just very simplistic. I mean you don't know who to respond against. What you do is just set off an endless, perpetual chain. It seems to me it's really foolhearty. I think it is too politically convenient for the Bush administration suddenly to decide that the Syrians are innocent and they are going to get a couple of Libyan hitmen. And to announce the extraditions and then say, "Oh, by the way, we are also thinking about bombing," that's not justice, that is political desperation and this is George Bush trying to prop up an enemy in case he needs him next year. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think Eleanor, it might take about 11 months to show that extradition is impossible, and then come October it might be necessary to take military action? MS. CLIFT: That's quite possible that we could have the makings of another October Surprise scare. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Morton? MR. KONDRACKE: No, what a cynic. I agree with you partly. Who are you going to bomb? If you bomb Syria when you think it's Syria and it turns out to be Libya, then you bomb the wrong person LEXIS'NEXIS`LEXIS`NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 7 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 and then you only encourage another attack. I think this is done correctly. Forensic evidence, you get the people who did it, you indict them in a system of laws and you ask for extradition. You try to get your allies together to impose economic sanctions, which is what the administration is going to do, and then it's going try to isolate Libya, and they are going to try to get all terrorist groups removed. They are going to put the same kind of heat on Libya that has been put on Iraq after the war, and as a last resort, if nothing happens, they will try some kind of military action. MR. BARNES: Mort -- let me say something to Mort and Eleanor. Sometimes you do know who to bomb. Now you don't -- (Cross talk) MS. CLIFT: Name one, Fred. MR. BARNES: In this case you do. MS. CLIFT: No. (Cross talk) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor, Eleanor. MS. CLIFT: What would be -- MR. BARNES: -- intervene militarily -- let me finish -- intervene militarily -- MS. CLIFT: He's pointing to me. MR. BARNES: He's always pointing to somebody -- (laughter) - intervene militarily if we need to because we know who the perpetrator is. We don't know in other cases. (Cross talk) MS. CHARIN: If you supply a standard - MS. CLIFT: (Inaudible). MS. CHARIN: Eleanor, Eleanor, if you apply a standard of legality toward international affairs, then you are going to have the exact same crime control on an international level that we have domestically -- MR. KONDRACKE: Are you saying -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Wait a minute, wait a minute, let her finish. MS. CHARIN: -- and look how successful we are being against crime here. MR. KONDRACKE: Are you saying that we are supposed to go shooting people in the streets of Washington, DC because we should apply the same standard to our domestic affairs as we do to international affairs -- (Cross talk) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor. MS. CLIFT: If the bombing of Pan Am 103 was in response to the bombing of Tripoli and we have had relative calm since this period, what would be the point of going in and leveling the airport in Tripoli and inviting further terrorist attacks?: MR. BARNES: I'll explain it to you. It is very -- MS. CLIFT: It is totally pointless. MR. BARNES: It is very simple. The Libyans are guilty of mass murder, 270 people, premeditated mass murder. MS. CLIFT: You want to invite them -- MR. BARNES: They need to be punished for that, it's as simple as that. MS. CLIFT: --- to mass murder more people? (Cross talk) MR. BARNES: Just to be clear, just to be clear -- MS. CLIFT: Let's let justice work through the courts. MR. KONDRACKE: Hey Eleanor --- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: We've got to get out. MR. KONDRACKE: - if it doesn't work through the courts then you do need to use military force. You should do it the legal way first, but if that doesn't work you have got to use the guns. LEXIS NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 8 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 MS. CLIFT: And what would your time limit be? MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I want to make couple of small points. MS. CLIFT: Eleven months. MR. KONDRACKE: Jump in any time, John. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Number one, the intelligence reports showing that indeed Syria and Iran played a role in Pan Am 103 and that will shortly be revealed -- MR. KONDRACKE: Inside joke, right John? MR. MCLAUGHLIN: -- okay, you've got a scoop here. Secondly, the majority of the families of the victims want an economic stranglehold but not military force applied in this instance, namely to cut out any landings -- airplane landings in Libya and to prevent Libyan aircraft from landing on any foreign soil. Exit question: on a probability scale of zero to 10, zero meaning zero probability, 10 meaning metaphysical certitude, what is the probability of these two accused Libyans being tried? Mona? MS. CHARIN: Two. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Freddie? MR. BARNES: It's about right, about a two. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor? MS. CLIFT: Three. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Mort? MR. KONDRACKE: One. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: The answer is one. We'll be right back with the Buchanan bombshell. (Commercial break) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue two: Beating the Bush. Is George Bush beatable, realistically beatable? Apparently Patrick J. Buchanan thinks he is. Pat will announce within three weeks that he is taking on George Bush for the 1992 Republican presidential nomination -- so says Pat's sister and close political confidant Angela Buchanan. Then, within three months, February the 18th, Mr. Buchanan will enter the New Hampshire primary. Buchanan's platform is likely to parallel that of David Duke, but without the fascist and excess baggage. PAT BUCHANAN: (From videotape) Bush -- (inaudible) -- he has walked away from all this valid conservative terrain. And David Duke's issues -- I saw him for one hour on (your/this?) show. There's not a thing he said a conservative could disagree with. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: This is the conservative terrain that Buchanan is talking about: One, opposition to new taxes; two, getting the able-bodied off the welfare rolls; three, ending reverse discrimination, whether through quotas or setasides; four, curtailing gun control; five, halting illegal immigration; six, cutting foreign aid; seven, getting tough on crime. In other words, Buchanan will be an outsider carrying the flag of "America first" -- an economic nationalist filling the vacuum created by the two major parties which have both dismissed the white backlash as a fluke. Pat Buchanan: editorial writer, columnist, author of three books; councilor to three presidents; and television personality, where on the McLaughlin Group he climbed to the all-time acme of his career -- (laughter) --- readying himself in this gladiator's boot camp for any destiny, any calling, howsoever heroic. Kindly assess Pat Buchanan as a candidate for president of the United States. I ask you, Fred. MR. BARNES: We should have known when Pat got rid of that mortician's blue suit that something was up -- (laughter) -- when he got that bright orange thing that he had on last week whatever you want to call it! MR. KONDRACKE: It was a rug! (Laughter.) MR. BARNES: Pat right now is a one-state candidate. It's all geared around LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 9 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 New Hampshire, an anti-tax state, a state that's -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: A pro-life state. MR. BARNES: A pro-life state. A state with a tradition and a zest for messing with incumbent presidents running for reelection. It happened to Lyndon Johnson and others. But you have to remember one thing about Pat, he is not representative of American conservatives. He's an isolationist, he's a nativist, he's a protectionist; most conservatives aren't. But Pat will have in New Hampshire, and if gets beyond that, elsewhere, a better primary voter message than George Bush will, and it's the number one issue you have -- taxes. That's a great issue. MS. CLIFT: The job openings he's created on television alone may help turn around the economy! (Laughter.) He is David Duke with a word processor and without the sheet, although sometimes he comes close to putting on the sheet. His views on immigration - he talks about it as suicide of a nation -- where he talks about the hoards of immigrants coming to dilute our Western civilization, to me, is thinly veiled racism. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Mona, are you going to sit there quietly and endure this? MS. CHARIN: (Laughs) No, there needs to be a right-wing challenge to George Bush because George Bush is making the Republican party incoherent. George Bush has abandoned all of the conservative principles on which he was elected in 1988. That Pat doesn't fully represent the right wing is the problem. He has become, in the last couple of years, a little idiosyncratic on some of these issues. MR. KONDRACKE (?): A little? (Laughter.) MS. CHARIN: And people on the Hill are concerned that he won't run a pro-growth campaign against Bush, the kind that, say, a Kemp would run. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Have you heard that the White House is urging Patrick to back off -- MR. KONDRACKE: Actually, I haven't -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: - and may be cutting a deal with Patrick? MR. KONDRACKE: Oh, really?! (Laughter.) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeeess! MR. BARNES: Oh, John! The inside (jump?) --- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: There may be a little modification of George's agenda. MR. KONDRACKE: What, he's going to dump Quayle? MR. BARNES: And what would they -- what would they buy him off with? MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, I don't know. Maybe it's gun control, who knows? MS. CLIFT: No. Pat would do the voice-over for the Bush campaign commercials. MR. KONDRACKE: Patrick profoundly believes that people in this country want to close down all the bridges to the rest of the world and hide under a rock, that we've stopped wanting to be international leaders -- the first nation among all nations -- and just forget about the world. He's wrong, and he ought to have a chance to test this message of his against the rest of the --- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Don't you think that Pat is doing what Reagan did in '76? He's laying the groundwork for '96. Don't you think so? MS. CHARIN: Yes, yes. That is absolutely right. Pat Buchanan is not doing this to move George Bush to the right. He really wants to be president some day, and he's doing this now in preparation for 1996. MR. BARNES: That's true. But wait a minute, comparing Pat Buchanan, who is a great television commentator and a good columnist and a friend of mine, with Ronald Reagan, who was larger than life and one of the greatest political candidates ever, is ridiculous. MS. CHARIN: Somebody once said the presidency is not an entry-level position. MS. CLIFT: The nicest thing I can say about Pat Buchanan is that he's not doing this to boost his lecture fees, he really believe this stuff! (Laughter, LEXISNEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 10 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 cross talk.) MR. KONDRACKE: Pat has zero political experience. He has never run anything except his own computer, you know. MS. CLIFT: Yeah. If he's going to embarrass George Bush in New Hampshire and then he's going to play tag-team with David Duke, who takes over the South, and if Duke runs third party, he can do for the Democrats what George Wallace did for the Republicans, and that is make it possible to win in the South. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think Pat will do in New Hampshire voter-wise? Do you want to give me a percentage? MR. BARNES: I'd say - look, to make a dent you need to get just 20,000 votes. It's a 100,000-vote field. I'd say he'll get about 20 percent. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Twenty percent? Is that all? What do you think he'll get? MS. CLIFT: I'll give him 30. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think? MR. KONDRACKE: I'd give him 30, too. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think? MS. CHARIN: Twenty-five. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I'd give him 30 percent. Did you hear that the Democrats are pouring into Buchanan coffers checks from all over the country? (Laughter.) MR. KONDRACKE: No, John, I haven't heard that. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Especially the liberal Democrats. They think this is great! MR. KONDRACKE(?): (They're all ?) supporting David Duke, too. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: No, they're supporting -- they're anxious to see the impact on George Bush. MR. KONDRACKE: Yeah, Republicans -- MS. CLIFT: Given the choice between Pat Buchanan and Ralph Nader on a write-in, I think liberal Democrats will go with Nader. (Laughs.) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Has anyone explored whether or not Gordon Humphrey is actually going to be the general campaign manager? MR. BARNES: I think not. But Republicans are putting all their money in Jerry Brown's campaign. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: He reported to my staff that he is not backing Pat Buchanan. Can you speak to this, the former Senator from New Hampshire? MS. CHARIN: The rumor was that Humphrey's hostility to John Sununu was so great that he would support Pat Buchanan. But he has -- as you say, he's been a little bit MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Whose Pat's running mate going to be? (Laughter.) MR. BARNES: Pat's not going to get nominated! MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Are you going to join his Cabinet? MR. BARNES: He's not going to get nominated! MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you want to be, Secretary of State? MR. KONDRACKE: I want to be -- I'm going to be -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you want to head the Buchanan Environmental Protection Agency? MR. KONDRACKE: I'm going to be in the "amen corner." (Laughter.) MS. CLIFT: I have a nomination. Jane Fonda. And they can do the -- (inaudible) --- together! MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Pat Buchanan may have an Achilles heel, namely the Persian Gulf War, which he opposed. In fact, the Group here ragged Pat about the Buchanan-McGovern-Fondal axis during that war. Come November '92, George Bush and Republicans may try to portray Democrats and, conceivably, Pat Buchanan, if he's still around, as soft on Iraq and soft on Saddam Hussein. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 11 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 Pat should know this. In his home state of Virginia just one week ago, on November the 5th, voters got a taste of that strategy. In the contest for Virginia's 7th District congressional seat, GOP candidate George Allen defeated Democrat Kay Slaughter by a whopping 62 to 35 percent with the help of this Persian Gulf War commercial, which commercial did a lot to pull Allen out of a dead heat with his opponent. (Begin videotape) NARRATOR: For Congress it's a question of judgment and leadership. Kay Slaughter, and the liberals in Congress, opposed fighting Saddam Hussein. Kay Slaughter opposed President Bush and joined anti-war protestors while our troops were at risk in the Persian Gulf. George Allen supported the decision to fight Saddam Hussein and strongly endorsed Virginia's resolution to back the President and our troops. George Allen and George Bush -- judgment and leadership we can trust. George Allen -- experienced conservative Republican. (End of videotape.) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Let's exit on this. Do you think that the Persian Gulf War will have enough political life in it so that it cna be said that it will have a cutting issue value in the presidential elections in 1992? Mona Charin? MS. CHARIN: Yes. But only because it gives George Bush the aura of leadership. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think? MR. BARNES: No, no. It does that, but it also allows -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: This is a national cutting edge issue. MR. BARNES: Yeah, I gotcha. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: All over the country, not just conservative districts. MR. BARNES: Is there an echo in here? (Laughter.) The fact is it will be, because it lets Bush tag his opponents as liberals, and a liberal can't win. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think? MS. CLIFT: I say no. George Allen is a "war potato" trying to capitalize on this war sitting on his couch. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Did you see the way he did it? MS. CLIFT: Oh, you know, that's not going to work a year from now. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You don't think so? MS. CLIFT: The country is closer to Pat Buchanan's "America first" agenda than it is -- THE GROUP: Ohhh! (Laughter.) MS. CLIFT: -- than it is to remembering a war that will be two-years old and very frayed and tattered. MS. CHARIN: Eleanor, everyone disagrees with you about the war! MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor, it's so good to (have?) you straightening us out! (Laughter.) What do you have to say? MR. KONDRACKE: I mean, it all depends on who his opponent is. If it's -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: On the one hand, on the other. Give me an answer! MR. KONDRACKE: If it's Bob Kerrey or Mario Cuomo, of course it's going to be a major issue. If it's Clinton, it won't. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Answer: Minor value in the presidential elections of 1992. Issue three: Doonesbury's doomsday. Vice President Dan Quayle was investigated for cocaine usage when he was a US Senator, and the Drug Enforcement Administration, the DEA, covered it. So says cartoonist Gary Trudeau in his Doonesbury comic strip. The allegations are phony. They were made by a convicted drug dealer who later recanted saying he made the whole thing up. The DEA and the Department of Justice both dismissed the charges as totally groundless. Quayle himself NEXIS® Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 12 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 denounced the allegations calling them, quote/unquote, "outrageous garbage." Marilyn Quayle described the matter as a media vendetta. Meanwhile, the comic strip has triggered a storm of critiques. Pat (sic) Oliphant, columnist for the Boston Globe, calls the behavior of the press in this instance, quote/unquote, "the great American scandal machine which treats rumor and fact indiscriminately." Oliphant adds, quote, "It's bad enough that Quayle has been slandered in a comic strip. What is incomprehensible is that the press has compounded the slander by treating it as news," unquote, thus legitimizing Trudeau's bogus account. A number of newspapers have refused to run the strip, including the Chicago Tribune, the Atlanta Journal, the San Jose Mercury News, the Orlando Sentinel, the Providence Journal Bulletin, the Dayton Daily News, and the Stanford Advocate and the Buffalo News. Is Oliphant right? Is the media way out of line? And what about Gary Trudeau, the Doonesbury cartoonist? I ask you, Mona? MS. CHARIN: Well, now we're participating in this very press behavior that Oliphant decried. Look, people can tell the difference between an investigative journalist report and just hunting for sleaze. We learned that in the Hill/Thomas affair. So this episode makes Gary Trudeau look like a McCarthyite, and it makes Dan Quayle look good. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: What do you think, Fred? MR. BARNES: Well, in fact, that's right. There has been a backlash. Already Quayle was picking up popularity and respect around the country. For the first time there was a poll last week that showed that a majority of Americans now, a narrow majority, think he should be on the ticket. Now that may not sound like much, but for Quayle it's a big advance. MS. CLIFT: I'd like to point out it's Tom Oliphant not Pat Oliphant, so we don't perpetuate another wrongdoing here. Clearly, Trudeau is dancing on the ethical line here. But it is a comic strip. It's a satirical comic strip. It's not his best work. He's going to be hurt by this. I like it better -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Why? Why is he going to be hurt? MS. CLIFT: Because he's made Quayle into a sympathetic figure. Nobody is going to vote against Dan Quayle because they think he's a crackhead. MR. KONDRACKE: Hey, Eleanor! MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You don't think it's a cheap shot? MS. CLIFT: I think it's not terribly funny. MR. KONDRACKE: Oh, Eleanor! MS. CLIFT: The medicine is far worse than the illness. I'm not for censorship of this kind of -- (Cross talk.) I like it better when Gary Trudeau goes after George Bush. When he talked about Bush putting his manhood in a blind trust, that was good satirical humor. This is not that good. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Eleanor -- gee, I think you're swell, Eleanor. Let me ask you this follow-up question. What about Tom Oliphant's -- apologies to Tom; calling him Pat -- what about Tom Oliphant's other point, that the press compounded the wrongdoing -- we'll call it that for the sake of the conversation -- the wrongdoing of Trudeau by making it a news item, thus giving it legitimacy? MS. CLIFT: I disagree with that, because by making it a news item most journalists condemned it on all the editorial pages -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Trying to straighten out the record. MS. CLIFT: Yeah. Who wins in this? Dan Quayle is the clear winner. MR. KONDRACKE: Eleanor, if this were a liberal Democrat who were the target of LEXIS® Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 13 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 this, by some right-wing cartoonist, you would be outraged - MS. CLIFT: No, I wouldn't. MR. KONDRACKE: -- that they were dredging something up, that it was sleazy and rotten. MS. CLIFT: I think it was typical right-wing behavior. (Laughs.) MR. KONDRACKE: It was sleazy and rotten on the part of Gary Trudeau and he ought to know better. I ask you because I know that you are a sympathizer of Dan Quayle's, if that's the right word to use in this regard -- MR. BARNES: I think he has got a bad rap. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think that Quayle -- Quayle really decided to make this an issue, trade off it, try to build himself by making this all public before the Doonesbury cartoon appeared? MR. BARNES: He really hasn't made this a big issue. It has been a big issue on its own and he hasn't asked newspapers not to run the strip. The problem with saying it's just a satirical comic strip, Eleanor, is this. The press syndicate that sends around this column has defended it as serious journalism, breaking a story that has been covered up in Washington. They can't have it both ways. MS. CLIFT: But everybody else knows better. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Is it safe to assume that we all feel that Gary Trudeau is coming out as the big loser in this affair? Is that correct? You all nodding your heads? Great. You know, I feel like a chaperone here, girls on one side, boys on the other. A high school dance. be right back with predictions. (Commercial break) MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Predictions, Mona Charin. MS. CHARIN: The Republicans in the House are going to revolt when RTC refinancing comes up next week -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Resolution Trust Corporation. MS. CHARIN: Exactly ----- because they are going to demand a pro-growth package in exchange for voting for the refinancing of the RTC. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well that's a very exciting prediction. What do you have to say, Freddie? MR. BARNES: Maybe they are responding to the courageous advice of Jack Kemp, of course George Bush isn't. You are going to see a new revisionism beginning about the Reagan presidency in which Reagan gets a lot of credit for winning the Cold War, he deserves the credit. You see some of that revisionism in a new book called "The Turn" by Don Oberdorf of the Washington Post. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well thanks for sharing that Fred. MS. CLIFT: Yeah --- MR. BARNES: I thought you'd like to hear it. MS. CLIFT: -- I think we have two members of the Kemp for President Committee here, '92, '96 or 2000. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Yeah? MS. CLIFT: It's better than even odds that the Iowa State Committee, when it meets next month, will vote for secret ballots in the Iowa Caucus, thereby making it more of a contest and undercutting Tom Harkin. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Quickly. MR. KONDRACKE: Bush will have a growth package and he will announce it in the State of the Union message in January. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Pat's career as presidential runner will last for three-and-a-half months. He will pull out after Super Tuesday, which is March the -- MR. BARNES: Tenth. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS NEXIS LEXIS® Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 14 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Tenth. Next week, Israel's Yitzhak Shamir tours America, New York, Baltimore, Boston, Los Angeles and Washington, DC, where he will meet with George Bush. Bye, bye. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Issue four, condom conundrum. Should condom ads be televised? Fox TV says yes, making it the first television network to accept condom ads. CONDOM COMMERCIAL: I never thought having an intimate relationship would be a matter of life or death, but because of AIDS I am afraid. AIDS isn't just a gay disease, it is everybody's disease and everybody who gets it, dies. The Surgeon General says proper use of condoms can reduce your risk, so you'd be crazy not to use them. The condoms I buy are called "Lifestyles." I'll do a lot for love but I am not ready to die for it. MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Currently networks show ads for contraceptive sponges but not condoms, and they have demonstrated condom use on network shows -- news shows. But some worry that promoting condoms will encourage promiscuity. Should networks run the kind of condom ad that we have just seen? I ask you, Fred. I think you could bring some expertise to this. MR. BARNES: Expertise? I hope they don't show them on Saturday mornings on the kids cartoon shows, but -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Did you find that condom ad offensive? MR. BARNES: I didn't find it offensive, I found it -- an argument that is not going to be effective. I mean people aren't going to be buying a lot of condoms for health reasons. That is not why people use them, John, maybe (you'd heard ?). MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Do you think that this kind of advertising legitimizes sex in some way? I ask you, Eleanor. MS. CLIFT: No. It doesn't legitimize or encourage. It acknowledges the real world that is out there, and it seems to me that in an era when having sex can be a death sentence, that this is an appropriate way to deal with it. The ads they are going to do are going to be more clinical than the one we just saw, and the steamy stuff that invites people to have sex goes on in prime time programming of every other kind. MS. CHARIN: Well, Eleanor, the clinical stuff is what we need, she is right about that MR. MCLAUGHLIN: About what percentage -- MS. CHARIN: But the TV programmers broadcast invitations to sex every night on prime time television. But the fact is that liberals want to believe that condoms are the answer to the AIDS crisis and that they can still have the sexual revolution and the complete libertinism regarding sexual matters if you just use a condom. It is not that simple. It is not a solution to sexually transmitted diseases. Nobody even really knows if condoms succeed in reducing the incidence of AIDS. The only -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: Well, Eleanor wants to see condoms dropped from airplanes, don't you, Eleanor? MS. CLIFT: No, I think they should come with the ammenities package in every high school, why not? We are saying it facetiously but they should -- MR. MCLAUGHLIN: You know that in New York City, 80 percent of the young people have had sexual intercourse by the age of 19, 80 percent. So does that not inspire you to think that it's better to distribute the condoms? MR. KONDRACKE: Look, I think on television, tasteful advertising -- that was sort of semi-tasteful, I thought, not clinical, not the kind of thing that I am surprised you actually didn't put on, the demonstration of how you put a condom on, but in any event, if it's done tastefully it's okay. In school there ought to be some lessons -- LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXISNEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 15 (c) 1991 Federal Information Systems Corporation, November 15, 1991 MR. MCLAUGHLIN: I want to point out that 79 percent of condoms break over a course of 18 months according to heterosexual couples who have used them. So contraceptives like condoms are not safe completely by any means. MR. BARNES: Is that right? MS. CLIFT: No, but they are better than nothing, and with Magic Johnson, all his endorsements out there, I think we are going to see Nike and Converse and everybody else doing public announcements for condoms. That's a good thing. LEXIS'NEXIS`LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 16 2ND STORY of Level 1 printed in FULL format. Copyright (c) 1991 Newsday, Inc.; Newsday November 15, 1991, Friday, ALL EDITIONS SECTION: NEWS; THE LOCKERBIE INDICTMENTS; Pg. 5 LENGTH: 1397 words HEADLINE: Blaming Libya; U.S. considers military response to '88 jet bombing BYLINE: By Stephanie Saul. WASHINGTON BUREAU. Susan Page, Saul Friedman and Glenn Kessler contributed to this report. DATELINE: Washington KEYWORD: QUOTE; RICHARD BOUCHER; COVER; PAN AM; ACCIDENT; AIRPLANE; SCOTLAND; PAN AM; LIBYA; MOAMMAR GADHAFI BODY: The United States is weighing punitive action - including the option of military force - against Moammar Gadhafi's Libyan regime in retaliation for the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103, officials said yesterday. The threats followed the Justice Department's release yesterday of an indictment against two Libyan intelligence operatives, accusing them of planting and detonating the explosive device that resulted in the deaths of 270 people. A senior White House official said President George Bush is weighing whether to order military action against Libya, and officials would not rule out an attempt to kidnap the accused agents. The president is now consulting with British Prime Minister John Major and other foreign leaders about concerted international action. "Obviously, we are talking about the full range of matters that are available to countries in terms of their authorities - the diplomatic, civilian, military, across the whole gamut - but we will not discuss any specific options," White House spokesman Marlin Fitzwater said. "This was a Libyan government operation from start to finish," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said in a statement that had been cleared with the White House. "We hold the Libyan government responsible for the murder of 270 people." Boucher said the United States was "in touch with our friends and allies regarding steps the international community should take to ensure that action is taken to punish the government of Libya in a way which will deter others." The ill-fated flight, bound for New York's Kennedy Airport from London, exploded 31,000 feet above Lockerbie, Scotland, on Dec. 21, 1988, killing all 259 people on board and 11 on the ground. Of the dead, 189 were Americans, many of them homeward bound for Christmas holidays. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 17 (c) 1991 Newsday, November 15, 1991 The indictment, returned Wednesday and released yesterday, charged Abdel Basset Ali Al-Megrahi, 39, chief of airline security for the Libyan intelligence service, and Lamen Khalifa Fhimah, 35, a Libyan intelligence operative who worked as station manager and representative for Libyan Arab Airlines at Luga Airport in Malta. Boucher described Abdel Basset as a well-connected senior Libyan intelligence official who reported directly to Gadhafi's brother-in-law, Abdullah Sanussi, the head of Libyan intelligence. The indicted men are fugitives, the Justice Department said. Because the United States has no diplomatic relations or extradition arrangements with Libya, they cannot be apprehended through normal channels. And in an interview yesterday with the BBC in London, Saeeb Mujber, Libyan ambassador to France, ruled out the surrender of the two agents to the United States or Great Britain. The indictment alleged that the two, conspiring with others, worked to develop plastic explosive devices for use in international terrorism and specifically planned to bomb a U.S. airliner. U.S. officials would not speculate about their motivation, but in the past, officials have said it was retaliation for the 1986 bombing of Tripoli by U.S forces. Gadhafi's adopted daughter was among about 40 people killed in that raid. In the summer of 1988, Fhimah stored plastic explosives in his office in Malta, the indictment said. With codefendant Abdel Basset and others, he constructed a bomb using the explosives and a Swiss-made digital timer. The bomb was concealed in a Toshiba radio-cassette player. The two defendants, and other conspirators who weren't named in the indictment, placed the radio-cassette player in a hard-sided Samsonite suitcase, the indictment charges. Using stolen Air Malta baggage tags, they checked the bomb-rigged suitcase on Dec. 21, 1988, on Air Malta Flight KM-180 in Malta. The plane flew to Frankfurt Airport. There, the suitcase was transferred to Pan Am 103A, bound for London. The case was transferred through normal airline baggage handling to the doomed Pan Am Flight 103. At about 7:03 p.m. Greenwich Mean Time, the plane broke apart. The indictment charged the men with 193 counts, including one count of killing a U.S. national for each of the 189 Americans killed on board the flight. The indictment charged that the men "utilized the resources and facilities of the nation of Libya to carry out their scheme " A similar indictment was released yesterday in Scotland. U.S. officials credited Scottish authorities with developing much of the case and said the investigation involved unprecedented international cooperation. "Pieces of the jetliner were scattered over an area of 845 square miles," Acting Attorney General William P. Barr said. "Scottish authorities immediately started conducting the most extensive crime scene investigation ever carried out. They searched the entire 845-square-mile area inch by inch, month by month, fields, forests, lakes and towns." LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 18 (c) 1991 Newsday, November 15, 1991 The search led to the discovery of evidence that forensic experts were able to use in piecing together the crime - including a minute part of the timing device used in the bomb, which was traced to a shipment of 20 such devices manufactured by a Swiss company for the Libyans. Investigators also traced clothing in the suitcase carrying the bomb to a retail store in Malta located 300 yards from a hotel where Abdel Basset had stayed and learned that Fhimah made entries in his diary describing aspects of the operation. Yesterday's U.S. indictment, returned by a grand jury here, was not as broad as charges brought by French authorities last month against Libyan terrorists in connection with the bombing of a French airliner. On Oct. 30, a French magistrate filed arrest warrants naming intelligence chief Sanussi in that case. Three other men, including Ibrahim Naeli, a Libyan intelligence officer, are being sought in that case. The Union de Transports Aeriens (UTA) flight exploded over the Sahara on Sept. 19, 1989. Forensic evidence in the two bombings is similar, and higher officials in the Libyan government also are believed to have been involved in the Pan Am Flight 103 case. Justice Department officials said their own investigation is continuing. "We will not rest until all those responsible are brought to justice, and we have no higher priority," Barr said. The disaster was originally thought to be the work of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command, a terrorist group with close ties to the Syrian government. Yesterday, U.S. officials said there was no evidence linking that group to the bombing and also discounted any involvement by Syria or Iran. In a brief mention of the bombing yesterday during a visit by Hispanic educators, Bush said, "A lot of people thought it was Syrians. The Syrians took a bum rap on this." Syria, which cooperated with the United States in the Persian Gulf war, has denied involvement in the Pan Am 103 bombing and has sought to be removed from the list of states that the United States says has sponsored terrorism. Officials also discounted early speculation that there was complicity by baggage handlers in Frankfurt or that a passenger aboard the plane had been involved in the bombing. The Flight 103 disaster prompted calls for improved airport security and also led to the dramatic shrinking of the country's unofficial flagship airline, Pan American. Suffering from years of losses, the airline was widely regarded to be on the road to recovery when the terrorist bomb blew up the 747 jet. Pan Am officials said that the resulting publicity - and a growing reluctance by American citizens to fly U.S. airliners - led to a $ 260-million decline in revenues for the airline's Atlantic business in the year after the incident. Pan Am ultimately was forced to file for bankruptcy this year. The Federal Aviation Administration in 1989 fined Pan Am $ 630,000 for security violations uncovered after the bombing, including a failure to fully screen passengers on the ill-fated flight. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS`NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 19 (c) 1991 Newsday, November 15, 1991 The Alleged Bombers Abdel Basset Ali Al-Megrahi Aliases: Abd A1 Basset Al Megrahi, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed Al Megrahi, Abdelbaset Ali Mohmed, Mr. Baset, Ahmed Khalifa Abdusamad Born: April 1, 1952, in Tripoli, Libya Occupation: Former chief of airline security section Lamen Khalifa Fhimah Aliases: Al Amin Khalifa Fhimah, Mr. Lamin Born: 1956 in Suk Giuma, Libya Occupation: Station manager, Libyan Arab Airlines LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 33 1ST STORY of Level 1 printed in FULL format. Copyright (c) 1991 The Christian Science Publishing Society; The Christian Science Monitor November 18, 1991, Monday SECTION: THE U.S.; Pg. 4 LENGTH: 954 words HEADLINE: US Seeks Means to Justice In Bombing of Flight 103 BYLINE: George D. Moffett III, Staff writer of The Christian Science Monitor DATELINE: WASHINGTON KEYWORD: Stats HIGHLIGHT: Indictments charge two Libyan intelligence agents with crime BODY: THE United States is discovering again that, when it comes to dealing with terrorists, there are no easy answers. On Friday, the Bush administration demanded that two Libyans indicted last week for the 1988 bombing of Pan American Flight 103 be brought to the US for trial. But the means available to get them here are fraught with diplomatic complications: Military force. The US retaliated with air strikes in 1986 when Libyan terrorists bombed a Berlin cafe, leaving three Americans dead. But the use of force against an Arab state could have an adverse effect on the Middle East peace process, which is now at a delicate stage. Kidnapping. US law permits kidnapping to bring accused terrorists to trial. But with Libyan security on alert and the suspects in hiding, covert operations would be difficult. Economic sanctions. Libyan oil is highly vulnerable to an embargo. But with little or no excess capacity in the world market, keeping Libya's 1.4 million barrels-per-day exports bottled up could drive world oil prices up, at least for the short term, and could further slow recovery from recession at home. A final option, doing nothing, would almost certainly be unacceptable to a large segment of the American public, especially in the aftermath of President Bush's decisive response to Iraqi aggression in Kuwait which cost no American lives. "There is no good way to respond to terrorism, because all of the options have an unattractive side," concludes Henry Schuler, an energy and Middle East specialist at the Center for Strategic and International Affairs. To be effective, economic sanctions would have to be backed by Libya's main European trading partners, including Italy and France. The US and Britain already boycott Libyan products. A call for broader sanctions, such as closing down Libyan embassies around the world, could gain the critical support of France, which has also been a LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 34 (c) 1991 The Christian Science Publishing Society, November 18, 1991 victim of Libyan terrorism. Angered at Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi's open support for last August's coup attempt, Soviet President Mikhail Gorbachev could also be a willing partner. The end of the cold war could also facilitate another US response: a unilateral naval blockade of Libya's oil terminals. The idea was considered during the Reagan administration but rejected because of the risk of a superpower confrontation. With the Soviets out of the picture, a blockade could be attempted with impugnity, diplomatic analysts suggest. Indictments issued The US handed down indictments Thursday against two Libyan intelligence agents, Abdel Basset Ali Al-Megrahi and Lamen Khalifa Fhimah. Investigators say the two placed a plastic bomb contained in a portable radio into a suitcase. The bomb was connected to a tiny Swiss-made detonating device that may have been one of 20 purchased by Libya in 1985. Using a stolen luggage tag, the bag was placed on a flight from Malta to Frankfurt, then routed aboard a Pan Am flight bound for London where it was transferred to Pan Am 103. On Dec. 21 the bomb exploded over Lockerbie, Scotland. The Pan Am jumbo jet was carrying 259 passengers, including 188 Americans. All were killed, as were 11 residents of Lockerbie. The indictments culminate a three-year, $30 million probe in which investigators searched for fragments from the crash and interviewed 14,000 people in 40 countries, including witnesses, suspects, and relatives of the victims. The indictments come just two weeks after French authorities announced criminal charges against four other Libyans, including the brother-in-law of Libyan leader Muammar Qaddafi, in connection with the 1989 bombing of a French airliner. The UTA flight, carrying 171 passengers, was en route from Brazzaville, in the Congo, to Paris and exploded over the Sahara desert. French authorities say they have evidence that the Pan Am and UTA bombings were both discussed at a September 1988 meeting in Tripoli that was attended by Libyan intelligence agents. Investigators are now convinced that the attack was perpetrated by Libya in retaliation for the 1986 US air attack and that the intelligence officers indicted were operating under direct authorization from Qaddafi. "This was a Libyan government operation from start to finish," State Department spokesman Richard Boucher said last week. "An operation of this magnitude could only have been undertaken with the approval of senior Libyan officials." One theory that was abandoned by the investigators but is still pressed by some terrorism experts is that the Pan Am bombing was the work of a Syrian-based terrorist group acting to avenge the accidental shooting down of an Iranian airliner by the US over the Gulf in 1988 The indictments will be transmitted to Libya within a few days, Mr. Boucher said Friday. Libya denies that its agents were involved in the Pan Am incident and said it was prepared to defend itself against the charges in an LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS Services of Mead Data Central, Inc. PAGE 35 (c) 1991 The Christian Science Publishing Society, November 18, 1991 international tribunal. Relations marred The bombing of Flight 103 was one of several exchanges that have marred relations between the US and Libya since the early 1970s. Relations first turned sour after a Watergate-besieged President Nixon, eager not to jeopardize ongoing Middle East peace negotiations, refused to condemn Israel for shooting down a Libyan passenger plane over the Sinai Peninsula in 1973. "The incident convinced Qaddafi that there could never be acceptable relations with the US because US policy was 50 one-sided," says Schuler, author of a forthcoming book on Libya. Subsequent acts of Libyan terrorism eventually led to US economic sanctions on Libya and, in 1986, the air attack that killed dozens in Benghazi and Tripoli, including Qaddafi's adopted daughter. LEXIS'NEXIS'LEXIS'NEXIS