Ask the Scholar

{
    "localId": "1672401",
    "label": "Meet the Press, 8/24/75 - Indira Gandhi",
    "core": "doc",
    "dtoType": "document",
    "citationUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1672401"
}

{
    "id": "1672401",
    "sourceUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1672401",
    "contentType": "document",
    "title": "Meet the Press, 8/24/75 - Indira Gandhi",
    "citationUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1672401",
    "collections": [
        "Ron Nessen Files (Ford Administration)",
        "Ron Nessen's Sunday Interview Show Transcripts"
    ],
    "subjects": [
        "India",
        "Human rights"
    ],
    "iiifBase": "https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/ford/grf-0151/644773/1672401.pdf",
    "thumbnailUrl": "https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/ford/grf-0151/644773/1672401.pdf",
    "largeImageUrl": "https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/ford/grf-0151/644773/1672401.pdf",
    "imageCount": 1,
    "hasImages": true,
    "source": "import",
    "hasTranscription": false
}

{
    "url": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1672401",
    "naId": 1672401,
    "coverageEndDate": {
        "day": 24,
        "logicalDate": "1975-08-24",
        "month": 8,
        "year": 1975
    },
    "coverageStartDate": {
        "day": 24,
        "logicalDate": "1975-08-24",
        "month": 8,
        "year": 1975
    },
    "levelOfDescription": "fileUnit",
    "recordType": "description",
    "ocrSource": "nara-archive"
}

{
    "seq": 1,
    "pageIndex": 0,
    "type": "document",
    "url": "https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/ford/grf-0151/644773/1672401.pdf",
    "mediaId": "1d8c8a05fe949fd9",
    "ocrText": "The original documents are located in Box 70, folder \"Meet the Press, 8/24/75 - Indira\nGandhi\" of the Ron Nessen Files at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library.\nCopyright Notice\nThe copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of\nphotocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. Gerald R. Ford donated to the United\nStates of America his copyrights in all of his unpublished writings in National Archives collections.\nWorks prepared by U.S. Government employees as part of their official duties are in the public\ndomain. The copyrights to materials written by other individuals or organizations are presumed to\nremain with them. If you think any of the information displayed in the PDF is subject to a valid\ncopyright claim, please contact the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library.\nDigitized from Box 70 of the Ron Nessen Files at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library\nPLEASE CREDIT ANY QUOTES OR EXCERPTS FROM THIS NBC RADIO AND\nTELEVISION PROGRAM TO \"NBC'S MEET THE PRESS. \"\n12:30 PM EDT\nhold FOR - - RELEASE - -\nSUNDAY, - AUGUST 24\nMEET THE PRESS\nProduced by Lawrence E. Spivak\n-\n-\nSUNDAY, AUGUST 24, 1975\nGUEST:\nINDIRA GANDHI - The Prime Minister of India\nMODERATOR:\nLawrence E. Spivak\nPANEL:\nJames L. Greenfield - The New York Times\nElizabeth Drew - The New Yorker\nCarl T. Rowan - Chicago Daily News\nJim Laurie - NBC News\n- - -\n- - -\nThis is a rush transcript pro-\nvided for the information and\nconvenience of the press. Accu-\nracy is not guaranteed. In case\nof doubt, please check with\nMELT THE PRESS\n2\nNR. SPIVAK: From New Delhi, India and Washington, D. c.,\nMEET THE PRESS Brings you today an interview with the Prime\nMinister of India, Indira Gandhi. It will be two months next\nTuesday that her government declared a national state of\nemergency.\nThe Prime Minister is in a television studio in New Delhi.\nWith her is NBC correspondent Jim Laurie.\nThe other questioners on our panel today in our Washington\nstudio are Elizabeth Drew of The New Yorker, James L.\nGreenfield of the New York Times and Carl T. Rowan of the\nChicago Daily News.\nMadame Prime Minister, I would like to start the\nquestioning.\nIn your address on the State of Emergency you said, \"The\nActions of a few are endangering the rights of the vast majority.\"\nWhat rights of the majority were being endangered?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: A few people had created a\nsituation of indiscipline which was leading to us great\nproblems of law and order and had they continued I think we\nwould have had anarchy in this country.\nUnfortunately these movements which started quite some\ntime ago, they declared a plan of action on the 25th of June,\nwhich would have aggravated the situation.\nMR. SPIVAK: A New York Times story says that although\nyou insisted you were responding to a threat to internal\nstability, that there were many who believed that the only\nreal threat was to your own political power and future. How\ndo you answer that?\n3\nPRIME MINISTER GANDIII: I don't see any truth in that\nat all because everybody knows what has been happening here\nin the last year or so, We had a movement in the state of\nGujaratt, we had a movement in the state of Bihar and in\nGujaratt the members of our legislative assembly were threatened\nand intimidated and forced to resign. There was violence.\nStudents were not attending college. We had strikes. In fact\nat all levels there was such indiscipline that even government\nfunctioning was becoming extremely difficult.\nWhen this campaign was announced, they said that the\nmotive was to paralyze the central government. Earlier\nthey tried to paralyze the government of these two different\nstates which I mentioned, Gujaratt and Bihar. But it is\nobvious that if this happened on a nationwide scale - and this\nwas what was announced -- there would have been wide scale\nviolence and in this period of international uncertainty and\ninternal economic difficulty, I think there was grave internal\ndanger to the country.\nMR. SPIVAK: One final question, Madame Prime Minister.\nThe Saturday Review quotes you as saying in your recent\ninterview with them, \"What has been done in India is not an\nabrogation of democracy but an effort to safeguard it.\"\nNow how can you safeguard democracy if you abandon the\nvery essence of democracy, free press, free speech and the\nright of dissent?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: Democracy has two obligations.\nThere are obligations on the government that it should allow\nfree press, free speech and association and so on but it also\nhas an obligation on the others to observe the rules of the\n4\ngame, if you like, but that was not being done, and this was\nwhat was resulting. This was a very small minority. It was\nnot a question of the entire country wanting something. It was\na small minority. Elections were only a few months to go and\nhad they waited they would have had the verdict of the people.\nBut one of the opposition leaders said, \"This will have\nto be fought out on the streets.\"\nAnother one said, \"There has to be total revolution,\" and\nhe tried to incite not only the industrial worker but the\nArmy and the police.\nNow this could not have strengthened democracy in any way.\nIf the people feel that their needs are not being met and\ntheir lives are being constantly disturbed, and I mean the\nmass of the people, then that poses very grave danger to the\nsystem.\n- -\nMRS. DREW: Mrs. Gandhi, when will you restore the\ncivil liberties which have been suspended?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: It is very difficult to give a\ndate. Naturally, this is not a permanent situation. There\nare many different types of people involved. They are the recog-\nnized political parties, there were certain groups with whom\nthey had combined which said they were not political, which\ndidn't believe in democracy, never said they believed in\ndemocracy, and this was the major danger.\nNow if those who genuinely believe in democracy are\nwilling to observe the rules of democracy, then this whole\nprocess could be expedited.\n5\nAs you know, although we have censorship of the press\nand some people are under detention, the whole opposition is\nnot under detention. In fact, most of them are out. Most of\nthose who are in prison are not political people, Some of\nthem are what you call bad elements which the police have on\ntheir list, and others are of these parties which we have\nbanned and, as I said, the parties banned are not political\nparties but are those which had plans for violence and had\ncommitted violence in the past.\nMRS. DREW: But Madame Prime Minister, with something like\n60,000 people in jail and the opposition silenced and the\npress censored, how can any free decision be arrived at as to\nwhen there is order and when there could be civil liberties\nreturned? Is it not just subject to your own decision?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDIII: No, it isn't. I am afraid you\nhave a very wrong view of what is happening, here.\nFirstly, the number that you have mentioned is out of all\nproportion with the truth. It is nothing like that, at all.\nPeople are already being released almost every day.\nThose decisions taken are not taken by a person, they are\ntaken, as they were taken before, by a cabinet, by various\ncommittees and at various levels.\nThe government is functioning as it was functioning.\nI have no powers than I had before, Our emergency asyou know is\nunder the Constitution and we had to ratify it in Parliament\nand even though some members of Parliament are in prison,\nsome opposition of all parties did attend that session and\nthe small number who are under detention would have made no\n6\ndifference to the two-thirds majority even if they had\nbeen out. This was done under the Constitution.\nMRS. DREW: Will you give any pledge that you will in\neffect lift the State of Emergency?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: I can assure you that I do not\nwant this to continue indefinitely. In fact I can also\nassure you that I am deeply committed to democracy. Not\nmerely because it is a good idea but because, for a country\nof India's vast size and great diversity, I think democracy --\nthat is, the people's participation --- is the only way to\nmake it function.\nMR. GREENFIELD: Madame Prime Minister, I think one of the\nproblems is that we still don't clearly, at least in this\ncountry, understand just what crisis you did face. We see\nyour strength in India. You outnumber the opposition in\nParliament two to one. Out of twenty-two states, you control\nall but three.\nMuch of your opposition is vocal. Jai Prakash Narain\nsays he is nonviolent. You, yourself, say this is a small\nminority. Why did you really have to move in the extreme way\nyou did? We simply cannot see that it was a national emergency.\nI wonder if you would elaborate on that.\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: Well, perhaps you are just too\nfar away. I have tried to explain that although the numbers\nof people involved in the agitations were not large, we all\nknow that, although the work of construction needs hard\nlabor and needs time and people, the work of destruction needs\nvery, very little time or people or energy.\n7\nThis is what was happening. In Parliament, itself,\nthere was obstruction. Government business could not go on\nand many important subjects -- economic, education and so on --\njust couldn't get to a discussion, because a very few people,\na handful of people, were disrupting it.\nBut something much worse happened in these two states, as\nI just said. That the Gujaratt Assembly was dissolved merely\nthrough the agitation of some people. And at one point they\nsaid they should have the right to recall. Now I don't think\nthat your Congress has any such thing.\nAnd who were the people asking for recall? Not those who\nhad elected the member but some students from the city who had\nno idea about his constituency, about his work, about his\nreputation. So this was the sort of thing that was happening.\nAs I said, that, worse than the actual things -- I mean we don't\nhave the time to go into the details of these matters, but worse\nthan this was the general atmosphere of irresponsibility.\nEverybody said that this was a time to get what they could for\nthemselves, and nobody bothered about the country.\nNow in a developing country you simply cannot continue in\nthat way. And the very announcement of the emergency did\nbring about this discipline and I can assure you that if you\nwere here and could go about, you would see that there is no\nfear, at all, There is calm. People are going about their\nbusiness in a much more effective way. Whether it is the House\nfight, whother it is the student people, the students who were\ngiving up exams, who were threatening the supervisors, they\nare now peacefully studying. And this is happening in all of\n8\nthe spheres of activity. This is democracy in a way. That\nthe people should feel that this is not government business\njust to run the country, it is their business.\nI personally believe in a greater decentralization but\nit needs also a strong center which will keep the country\ntogether.\nA prime minister's primary duty is really to keep the\ncountry's unity and integrity. If you lose that, then how\ndo you keep democracy or anything else?\nMR. GREENFIELD: I agree with much of what you say and\nif it is true and if you want to tell the world this, why not\nput the people on trial? You have a good court system. Why\nnot let the world know what they were about to do?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: How would the world know what\nthey were going to do?\nMR. GREENFIELD: I think if you had trials and you\ntried them and it was explained that they were threatening\nto endanger your country. But none of that is available.\nThere is not a gfree press now in India, even to reporters.\nI think if you had a free press or allowed information to get\nout and put people on trial they would understand your\nproblem more. Do you agree? Why not a free trial?\nPRIME MINISTER AGNDHI: Court cases go on for years and\nyears and it is very difficult to prove anything. If a\nperson has not personally indulged in arson or whatever, you\ncouldn't convict him. What we have done in a large number of\ncases is preventive detention, because we had information\nthat this might happen, Not that the particular individual\nmight do it but that a situation was being created which\n9\nwould lead to violence.\nNow this is not merely guess work. We came to this\ndecision after the experience of these things happening in\ndifferent parts of the country and at different times.\nMR. ROWAN: Madame Prime Minister, there has been some\ntalk that you are moving toward one-party rule in India. Are\nyou moving toward one-party rule, or not?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: No. I don't think it would work.\nAnd we have not banned our parties.\nMR. ROWAN: Now one of the things that your Congress\nParty has done in this emergency is to reduce substantially the\npower of the courts. You say at some point you are going to\nlift the emergency. Can you ever restore a situation\nwhere the courts play the role they were playing prior to\nthis situation?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: All countries have had to change\ntheir constitutions from time to time, including the United\nStates of America. There is no conflict between the judiciary\nand the parlianent. Neither of these is higher than the other.\nThey are supposed to be equal, The executive power lies with\nparliament in a parliamentary system, which is what we have.\nMR. ROWAN: Your parliament, though, has passed a retroactive\nlaw declaring you not guilty of any kinds of election violations.\nNow I understand your supreme court on August 25 is going\nto make a ruling as to whether that constitutional amendment is\nvalid.\nIf the Supreme Court says it is not valid, will you accept\nthe judgment of the Supreme Court?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDIII: That is a hypothetical question.\n10\nI don't want to comment on my case because it is not allowed,\nhere, while such matters are in court.\nMR. ROWAN: My question is very simple, Madame Prime\nMinister. It is whether or not you believe the Supreme\nCourt of India has still the authority to decide whether this\nconstitutional amendment is legal.\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: The Supreme Court does have the\nright to decide but as I said, here, the essence of\nparliamentary democracy does make parliament supreme, in so\nfar as all executive action is concerned.\nMR. LAURIE: Madame Prime Minister, you say you are still\ncommitted to parliamentary democracy. Elections are due in\nthe first of the year, in February. Will they take place?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHII: I can't give a definite answer\nat this point because naturally much depends on how the\nsituation is. We must be able to ensure fair elections.\nMR. LAURIE: What are the contingencies, here? What\nwould influence you to have elections in the early part of\nthe year?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: It is too early to say this.\nThe emergency has only been there for two months and many\nthings have taken place since then.\nMR. LAURIE: But you seem to have things well in hand,\nfrom my observations at least here in India. Is it not\ntime for some sort of relaxation?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: This is a difficult question to\nanswer. Not because there isn't an answer but these things\njust can't be announced. There is no doubt that one must\n11\nchoose a time for relaxation but there is also the question\nthat the other side must be willing, also.\nMR. LAURIE: Returning to that question of the other side,\nwhat would the political detainees have to do to gain their\nrelease? Is there any possibility of having some of these\npolitical prisoners be released, at this time, or in the near\nfuture?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: As I said, that they should observe\nthe rules of democracy. That is, you speak in Parliament,\nyou defeat the party in the elections but you don't take it to\nthe streets and you don't intimidate people to resign their\nseats in between.\nMR. SPIVAK: Madame Prime Minister, in your address on the\nState of Emergency you said, \"Certain powers have gone to\nthe length of exciting our armed forces to mutiny.\" How much\nreal danger was there that the armed forces would mutiny?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: I don't think there was a real\ndanger but this sort of thing, it causes confusion in the minds\nof people, in the masses of the public as well as amongst the\narmed forces. I have no doubt at all that the armed forces and\nthe police would stand firm but that a person would say this\nsort of thing and say, let me be tried for treason, I don't\nthink that is a good situation in a country which is just\ndeveloping and is at a very difficult stage of development.\nMRS. DREW: You speak of the necessity of discipline and of\nthe irresponsibility of the opposition. Are you saying that\nit is possible that a country with the size and the problems\nof India that there are situations, and we might be facing one,\nthat democracy might have to give way in order to make progress?\n12\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHII: No, I don't think so,\nMR. GREENFIELD: Just eight months ago, Madame Prime\nMinister, in your New Year's address you said, \"Some\ntotalitarian systems have put all their people to work, have\n?\neliminated flies and also the dissenters, but many dictator-\nships have failed to solve the basic problem. When this\nproblem was opened to us we deliberately chose the democratic\nsystem although we knew it was slower.\" Was it too slow?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: No but it was --- you see the\nlast two years have been extraordinarily difficult years\neconomically speaking for nearly every country in the world,\nso there was a special situation which was exploited by the\nopposition.\nMy case is not really relevant except that it gave\nanother cause for escalating this sort of campaign and there\nhas been a campaign of hate and calumny against me personally,\nagainst those who support me, against my family. Not just\nnow when this emergency is taking place but for a year or more\nbefore.\nMR. SPIVAK: We have only two minutes left.\nMR. ROWAN: Madame Prime Minister, recently some of\nyour Congress Party supporters were outside the U. S.\nInformation Agency offices shouting, \"Shame on the CIA.\"\nDo you know of anything done by the CIA or any other U. S.\nGovernment agency that caused you these difficulties, or that\nyou can construe as an effort to undermine your government?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: I can only say that what has been\nappearing in your own press and the media has disturbed many\n13\nwithin your country and many people in other countries,\nincluding India. Sometimes there are presences which you cannot\nprove.\nMR. LAURIE: Madame Prime Minister, what do you think\nyour emergency has achieved that could not have been achieved\nin a less radical manner?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDHI: The people have had a shock and\nthey have realized thut they have certain obligations to\nthemselves, because this is not for us, for the government,\nit is for themselves. If the country doesn't develop or the\nstudents don't study, it is they who suffer, not the government.\nSo this new feeling --- it is even enthusiasm, it is not just\ndiscipline -- this can involve people, which is a very impor-\ntant step in democracy, the participation of people at all\nlovels.\nMR. LAURIE: If there is enthusiasm, though, in some areas,\nin other areas I detect, at least among intellectuals, some\nfear, fear of being arrested. Doesn't this kind of poison\nthe climate here a bit?\nPRIME MINISTER GANDIII: I think that this is very limited.\nThere is some fear amongst those who were indulging in black\nmarketing and hoarding and smuggling because we were taking\nsevere measures against them.\nMR. SPIVAK: I am sorry to interrupt, Madane Prime\nMinister, but our time is up. Thank you, Madame Prime Minister,\nfor being with us today on MEET THE PRESS.\n- - -"
}