Ask the Scholar
Document scope · 1 page
Scholar
Ask about this object, its catalog metadata, its source description, or the page inventory.
For page-specific OCR and visual context, open one of the page chats.
Source Description
This file contains interview concerning his law work with Ford, 1946-1948, his participation in the 1948 congressional campaign, and his association with Gerald Ford.
Scholar Source Context
Document identity
localId
1536972
label
Weathers, Niel A. - Interview, 1/28/80
core
doc
dtoType
document
citationUrl
pageCount
1
Source metadata
id
1536972
sourceUrl
contentType
document
title
Weathers, Niel A. - Interview, 1/28/80
description
This file contains interview concerning his law work with Ford, 1946-1948, his participation in the 1948 congressional campaign, and his association with Gerald Ford.
citationUrl
collections
Grand Rapids Oral Histories Collection
Interview Transcripts
subjects
Grand Rapids (Mich.)
Congressional elections
Presidents
imageCount
1
hasImages
yes
source
import
hasTranscription
no
Source extras
naId
1536972
coverageEndDate
logicalDate
1948-12-31
year
1948
coverageStartDate
logicalDate
1946-01-01
year
1946
levelOfDescription
fileUnit
recordType
description
ocrSource
nara-archive
Single page context
seq
1
pageIndex
0
type
document
mediaId
461625ef055b8a1a
ocrText
Scanned from Grand Rapids Oral History Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library (Box 1)
RECORDS AND ARCHIVES ADMINISTRATION
Gerald R. Ford Library
1000 Beal Avenue Ann Arbor, Michigan 48109-2114
1985
NIEL A. WEATHERS
Oral history interview concerning his law work with Gerald
Ford 1946-48, his participation in the 1948 congressional
campaign, and his association with Ford thereafter.
A Presidential Library Administered by the National Archives and Records Administration
10 1980
GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION
NATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS SERVICE
GERALD R. FORD LIBRARY
Legal Agreement Pertaining to the Oral History Interview of Niel A.
Weathers.
In accordance with the provisions of Chapter 21 of Title 44, United
States Code, and subject to the terms and conditions hereinafter set
forth, I, Niel A. Weathers, of Grand Rapids, MI, do hereby give, donate
and convey to the United States of America all my rights, title, and
interest in the tape recording and transcript of a personal
interview conducted on January 28, 1980 at Grand Rapids, MI
and prepared for deposit in the Gerald R. Ford Library. This
assignment is subject to the following terms and conditions:
(1) The transcript shall be available for use by researchers
as soon as it has been deposited in the Gerald R. Ford Library.
(2) The tape recording shall be available to those researchers
who have access to the transcript.
(3) I hereby assign to the United States Government all
copyright I may have in the interview transcript and tape.
(4) Copies of the transcript and the tape recording may be
provided by the Library to researchers on request.
(5) Copies of the transcript and tape recording may be
deposited in or loaned to institutions other than the Gerald R.
Ford Library.
niel a. weathers
Donor
Aug. 12, 1980_
Date
acting
Archivist Janes of the United E.Oheill States
Date
august 22,1980
This interview is being conducted with Mr. Niel Weathers at his
office in Grand Rapids, Michigan on January 28, 1980. The
interviewer is Dr. Thomas Soapes. Present for the interview are
Mr. Weathers and Dr. Soapes.
SOAPES:
Mr. Weathers, are you a native of this area?
WEATHERS:
No, I came here in 1946 from New Jersey.
SOAPES:
And you've been practicing law here ever since then.
WEATHERS:
Yes.
SOAPES:
What was the first contact that you had with Ford?
WEATHERS:
Well, I was hired by Butterfield, Keeney, and
Amberg approximately six months after Jerry Ford had been hired
by them. He started work in about February '46, and I was here
in May - - maybe it was a little earlier.
SOAPES:
Phil Buchen was in that firm too, wasn't he?
WEATHERS:
Yes. Phil was a partner. Jerry and I were associates,
hired staff attorneys.
SOAPES:
What were the principal characteristics of Ford as
a person that you recall?
WEATHERS:
Friendly, energetic, and hard working. That guy
would get down here at seven in the morning or earlier. He knew
everybody in town. He was most friendly to me. I came out here
as a bachelor and a stranger in the area, and he was a good friend.
He took me around with him and, incidently, involved me in the
Republican county committee fairly early in the game. He was very
active in community affairs and in Republican politics, meetings,
committees, fund drives, "Young Man of the Year" once for the
Junior Chamber of Commerce.
SOAPES:
Now Phil Buchen, how did he strike you?
WEATHERS:
Well, Phil was then a partner, the youngest partner
of the three, and a tremendously able young lawyer.
SOAPES:
Was the firm involved in the general practice of
law or did they have a specialty?
WEATHERS:
Well, it didn't have a specialty but there were
some things that it did not do much of such as personal injury
litigation, divorces, criminal work, no patent work. But you
might call it a general business practice. Julius Amberg was
a very good litigator, commercial cases.
SOAPES:
And Ford's activities, did it mirror the firm
or did he tend to go to one type of case?
WEATHERS:
Well, he was somewhat independent. He built an
independent practice of his own within the firm, and he dealt directly
with a lot of clients. And being a young man, they tended to be small
clients.
SOAPES:
What kind of a reputation did he have as a
litigator?
WEATHERS:
Well, he had only been here a few months when I came
so he didn't have any reputation. Now as he went on he handled some
court work, but I wouldn't say that was his reputation. He was just
an all-round lawyer on pretty much an independent practice of his
own within the firm. Not that he didn't help. He was assigned to
help on some work of Mr. Amberg's and Buchen's wrote memoranda. I
-2-
remember him giving me some help on how to structure memoranda for
the firm, how they liked to do it.
SOAPES:
You said that he began to get you involved in
Republican politics. Was this going to meetings, or did you get
involved in some of the leg work of politics?
WEATHERS:
Well, he had a lot of that too. He took me to
meetings, and there was a vacancy on the county committee and he
got me appointed to fill it. I can't remember going to any meetings,
but I can remember pounding the streets and ringing door bells.
SOAPES:
Doing some canvassing?
WEATHERS:
Right. That might have come a little later, I
can't remember. But Jerry was a very enthusiastic, warm magnetic
guy. And if he said, "Let's do this," or "Would you like to help
me?" your immediate tendency was to say yes until you got in so deep
you had to call a halt to it. So I didn't go on with politics; it
wasn't my particular bent.
SOAPES:
Did you get involved with any of the "Home Front"
activities that were working against the [Frank D.] McKay machine?
WEATHERS:
The "Home Front" group were in the saddle by the
time I arrived; so they were the county committee essentially. McKay
had been defeated and the "Home Front" was Paul Goebel, Jerry Ford,
Senior, Dr. Bill Ver Meulen - - they were the top influential people
in the county organization.
SOAPES:
Did you have much personal contact with Jerry Ford,
Senior?
-3-
WEATHERS:
Yes, quite a bit. I visited in their home and
after Jerry went to Washington I kind of inherited the Ford Paint
and Varnish Company work. He was still the president, Mr. Ford,
Senior. Yes, I felt I knew them quite well. We were members of
the same church, Grace Church, Episcopal.
SOAPES:
What were the principal traits of Ford, Senior
that you recall.
WEATHERS:
Stern looking man, very good-hearted, friendly
man, very much respected in the community, public spirited, good
churchman, moderately successful businessman. Company ran for years
after that, Ford paint business. Tom Ford was the president after
his father died. Then when he went to Lansing, Dick Ford became
the president, and more recently it has been sold to some larger
organization.
SOAPES:
What about the other people who were the leaders
of the "Home Front," Dr. Ver Meulen, how did he strike you?
WEATHERS:
Well, to me he was just a friendly guy who was
much respected. From what I heard about him he had a lot of guts.
He had great courage in the early stages when he tackled McKay and
his organization. I don't remember him as being chairman of the
county committee, he may have been, just a very much respected
veteran of the war - - the war with McKay.
SOAPES:
Were they still carrying the torch of the campaign
against McKay?
-4-
WEATHERS:
Oh yes, a lot of people were. Some of the old
McKay henchmen were still around - - the congressman, Bartel Jonkman,
was a McKay man and some few functionaries in the county government.
So there was a strong feeling, it was that recent.
SOAPES:
And when elections came along, the McKay image was
still something they were still battling against?
WEATHERS:
Oh yes. In fact, McKay was fighting back at about
that time. He was trying to regain his control of the county commit-
tee, I guess, or county convention. And it was some friends among
returning veterans that set up a rival organization, canvassed and
organized and tried to win elections - - didn't really succeed.
SOAPES:
There was another reform group, the "Citizen's
Action," that Mrs. Siegel Judd was involved in.
WEATHERS:
Yes. Julius Amberg was the head of that. I think
they made him the head after they'd kicked off the battle for the
city government. George Welsh and his crew, a big blowup over the
appointment of assessors, tax assessors for the city. Welsh was
very insistent on his man. And there was suspicion or evidence
that it was being used to reward friends and punish enemies of the
old organization. So it was made a big issue, and I guess they
thought Welsh and his majority of the city commission and some
of the improprieties in regard to this appointment, made an issue
of it and campaigned for the mayor's office. Paul Goebel won and
was in for a term or two as a reform mayor. There was litigation
-5-
that went to the Michigan supreme court, one aspect of it. I
think Welsh sued to have his man appointed or have his action
recognized or something, I can't remember. That's when Julius
Amberg was asked to come in and head the group and he did, and
his main function was this law suit. This was all after Jerry
was gone. As I remember, it was '48 and '49.
SOAPES:
Right, '49 was the recall on the mayor. Was the
law firm that you were with known as a political law firm?
WEATHERS:
No, it was not. See Jerry was a very active
Republican. Julius Amberg was a well-known Democrat, although
he never ran for office. But Julius endorsed Jerry in his campaign
for congressman. In spite of the fact that he valued his standing
as a Democrat, he had enough faith in Jerry that he publicly en-
dorsed him. He backed him up too on the - - do you know the
incident about the campaign headquarters?
SOAPES:
Yes.
WEATHERS:
Julius backed him on that. I can remember him
saying, "Fred Schoeck of Wurzbergs called me and said to tell Jerry
to pull off that lot. But if Jerry doesn't want to do it, I'm not
going to do it. We might lose Wurzburg as a client but I don't
really think so; they have other reasons for keeping us." So he
stood his ground, and we didn't lose Wurzburg. Julius was not a
man to back away from a fight.
SOAPES:
Did you get involved in Ford's campaign in '48?
-6-
WEATHERS:
Well, I think my function was to dig out infor-
mation. I can remember studying census figures in the library and
distribution of population. There was a group of young men, we used
to meet in the University Club and parcel out work and take on
projects.
SOAPES:
So you were doing some background research, classi-
fying areas of the city for the campaign.
WEATHERS:
Trying to furnish useful information to him in
planning his campaign: How many farmers are there in Ottowa County?
How many people live in the cities, like that.
SOAPES:
Were you just giving him raw data, or were you
trying to intrepret this into strategy?
WEATHERS:
Interpret.
SOAPES:
Do you recall suggesting strategy to him: Here's
a group of farmers out here. You could make this kind of appeal
to them.
WEATHERS:
Well, the only thing I remember on that - - Ottowa
County was regarded as agricultural and the figures showed that the
majority lived in the cities. That was the sort of question we
needed to have the answer to.
SOAPES:
What I recall from what I've learned about the
McKay machine was that it was very strong with the east European
ethnic elements around Grand Rapids, the Lithuanian, Polish elements.
The Dutch, however, were somewhat outside the orbit. Was this some-
-7-
thing that Ford was able to play on, build a base in the Dutch
community?
WEATHERS:
Well, I don't know the answer to that. It may be
true; it sounds reasonable. McKay was strong on the west side
which is Polish and European and Lithuanian. Jonkman was strictly
Dutch. Jerry had VerMeulen, Milanowski, and probably Wally Waalkes,
later a judge. So I don't really know that you could divide it on
those ethnic lines.
SOAPES:
Did Ford discuss his decision to run with you?
WEATHERS:
No.
SOAPES:
Do you know who it was that he might have discussed
that decision with?
WEATHERS:
He was very close to Jack Stiles, and Jack managed
his campaign. I would guess he would, I don't know.
SOAPES:
I think Phil Buchen was the one who had put him on
to Jack Stiles.
WEATHERS:
I don't know whether he was or not. They were all
members of the DKE [Delta Kappa Epsilon] fraternity, University of
Michigan. Jerry was a little older, couple years older than Phil.
The Stiles brothers, I guess, were contempories of Phil's, so that
could be SO. But the Stiles were an old Grand Rapids family too,
and it may have come about that way.
SOAPES:
One pattern that I've noticed in talking with
people about both the "Home Front" campaign as well as Ford's is
-8-
old-line, respected families, that this was a strategy that they
seemed to employ, getting some major community names on their list
of supporters. Was this a conscious strategy they seemed to be
following of getting some good old-line names behind us.
WEATHERS:
I don't know, Tom. Jerry had a pretty broad base
of support. I remember he used to like to go out to Kent City and
Sparta because he had lots of good friends there, the Saurs and
influential country people. Jerry had contacts in the black
community, had some black clients, whom I inherited from him when
he left. He cultivated that, he cultivated everywhere and I suppose
the leading families, I just wasn't conscious of this being the main
objective of the campaign, and the "Home Front" campaign, of course,
was before I arrived here.
SOAPES:
That's interesting that he had built himself a base
throughout the community with blacks and with other ethnic groups as
part of his law practice.
WEATHERS:
I really think that Jerry had political ambitions
from the earliest time I knew him, and his law practice was a means
to an end. And he did very much cultivate a very broad variety of
people, geographically and economically and socially. He was a
very gregarious, friendly guy. I've never seen a fellow more at
ease with all kinds of people.
SOAPES:
Then after the campaign, you kept up a personal
friendship with him, didn't you?
-9-
WEATHERS:
Yes, to the extent you can with a person in
Congress. Jerry kept a place in the firm, and when we young
fellows were admitted to the partnership he asked to be admitted
too, in case he should lose his election or for some reason
want to come back to law practice. So he was nominally a partner
in the firm for several years, although he didn't do any work or
draw any compensation. When he came back I tried to visit with
him; he had a pretty busy time and sometimes he'd have dinner with
us out at the home, out at the beach in the summer. Jerry, he was
just great with his relations with people. My wife and I went down
to Washington to hear the argument in a Supreme Court case we were
interested in, took our young son with us. I wrote to Jerry
several weeks before saying we were coming down and I would like
to drop in and see him. We got down there and we were busy and
we didn't make a contact and I got a call at my hotel. Jerry had
traced back to here and gotten my address where I was staying and
called me at the hotel and took my family to lunch at the House
restaurant. But Jerry was so very busy and such a worker that
you had to share just small pieces of his time.
SOAPES:
Do you remember of him commenting on his reaction
to being a congressman, to the job, of things that surprised him
or things that he didn't like about the job?
WEATHERS:
No, I think he loved it from the word go. I think
he was one of the first to have a mobile office that would go
-10-
around the district and spend a few days here and there. I think
he may have been one of the first to send out a newsletter to his
constituents. Everybody does it now, but he started it right early.
SOAPES:
Do you remember what the local press reaction to
his service was? Did he get a lot of press coverage once he was
in office?
WEATHERS:
We had two newspapers at the time, the Grand Rapids
Herald and Grand Rapids Press. I think the Press endorsed him for
nomination to congress. I don't think they always agreed with his
votes, or what he did - - Jerry was pretty much a conservative,
party-line Republican. He took some positions that the press didn't
go along with - - this is a general recollection, I can't name the
specifics. He was, of course, in the minority party when Truman
was in office. He was outspoken in the attacks on Dean Acheson
and some of the Truman administration actions which the local
Democrats didn't like, including Julius Amberg. And there were
other things they did like.
SOAPES:
Did Amberg continue to support him when he came
back for re-election?
WEATHERS:
Amberg died in January of '51. I don't know what
position he took in the 1950 election. It wasn't open or active
I guess. I would guess that Julius went back to his regular Democratic
affiliation. He helped Jerry get in, and I don't think he felt he had
to stay in the Republican ranks any more.
-11-
SOAPES:
Did you get to know Betty Ford very well?
WEATHERS:
Not well. When they were engaged I remember being
out with them one evening and seeing them around. I had not known
her before. She was always a very gracious hostess. That time we
were in Washington, Jerry was busy and she was really the hostess
of the luncheon. Came all the way in from Alexandria, busy as she
was. I knew her by reputation. She was a Grand Rapids girl and
my friends and my wife had known her when she was young. So I
feel as though I know her, but personally, I've had very little
contact with her.
SOAPES:
Do you recall anytime during his service in congress
that he was in any sort of hot water back home? Controversies,
problems, questions raised that were in any way threatening to
his standing?
WEATHERS:
I don't think so, Tom. There was a big challenge
to him after he had been in about three terms by a Democrat. I've
forgotten who they ran, but the UAW [United Auto Workers] and the
unions got strongly behind some candidate in the area - - Bob Kleiner,
I can't remember who. And they weren't able to dislodge him - -
he rolled up a better vote than before. You might call it a
threat but it never did succeed.
SOAPES:
He kept his fences very well mended throughout his
tenure?
WEATHERS:
Immensely popular guy. And he did a lot in serving
-12-
individual constituents. His office staff was very good about
helping people who had trouble with the government. Everybody
does that now too, but Jerry did it particularly effectively.
I think maybe if there had been a threat the only real basis would
have been that he was too conservative. This area has been now
labeled Republican for a long time, sometimes Democrat, like
when [Richard] Vander Veen made it. Michigan as a whole is
Democrat, in spite of Governor [William] Milliken. So they don't
like conservative Republicans like Jerry Ford. They don't dis-
like him as a man, but they would have liked to beat him, I'm
sure. And the press, it tried to be more liberal or middle of
the road, so it takes issue sometimes and I'm sure they took
issue with a lot of Jerry's stands. This is my general impression.
SOAPES:
Several times during the 150s I've noticed in
reading some of the newspaper clippings that it was suggested
that Ford run for the Senate or run for governor.
WEATHERS:
Yes, I remember.
SOAPES:
Did that get much attention or cause much
excitement?
WEATHERS:
Well not among people like me who weren't in
the intra-party counsels. Republicans badly needed a vote-getting
candidate for those offices. So they would have really liked to
have Jerry. I thought he was very wise not to - - he had it made
in the House of Representatives. And Jerry was not a rich man.
-13-
I don't know how a guy can run for senator unless he's a rich
man or he's got a ready made fund-raising organization. Jerry
lived very modestly.
SOAPES:
Did your personal relationship grow closer to
him as the years went on?
WEATHERS:
No, more distant. Jerry got busier and busier
and he was raising a family in Washington. But I never felt any
estrangement when he's been here, you know, he's always been most
friendly. Then I have some reluctance to impose on the time of
a man like that unless I've got some good reason to.
SOAPES:
Do you remember the reaction of the local
community here when he moved up to leadership positions in the
House of Representatives? Many times other people, as they move
up, tend to come under more criticism at home of spending too much
time in Washington - - they are a national figure and not paying
too much attention at home. Did that question begin to arise?
WEATHERS:
Not aware of anything like it. As far as I
know he still served his constituents in the same way. He had
a good staff at his local office and a good staff in Washington.
SOAPES:
The reaction here when Nixon appointed him Vice-
President, what was the general reaction around here?
WEATHERS:
Well, kind of hard to believe that the local boy
could go so high. Not really surprising, we knew about his friend-
ship with Nixon. We could see the political reasons for choosing
him and sure were glad to have an honest man in there.
-14-
SOAPES:
Was there some reaction like: Jerry's a nice
guy but he's getting too close with that guy Nixon about whom
we have a lot of questions?
WEATHERS:
No, I can't really remember anything about that.
It didn't bother me because I knew that Jerry was friendly with
everybody and they'd served in congress together. One of Jerry's
big attitudes was loyalty to his friends.
SOAPES:
Then when he's elevated to the Presidency, a lot
of the national press reacted: Here is a guy who has never won an
election outside of two county congressional district - -
WEATHERS:
Never lost an election either.
SOAPES:
And he's generally thought of as not too bright
in Washington - -
WEATHERS:
Is that the way they thought of him?
SOAPES:
That's the way that a lot of the press began to
characterize it. They brought up the old Lyndon Johnson quote,
"He played football too long with his helmet off."
WEATHERS:
Yes, I remember that.
SOAPES:
And they began to talk about Grand Rapids as a
very small kind of isolated place, not very cosmopolitan.
WEATHERS:
I came from the East so I know the attitude.
SOAPES:
I was wondering how the local community here
responded to those kind of comments.
WEATHERS:
Well, there was tremendous pride. Signs were
-15-
all over at the airport, freeway, Gerald Ford Building - - "This
is the home of Jerry Ford." I guess the feeling of people I had
contact with was that Jerry might not be the greatest idea man, but
he was the guy who could get things done. He could put things across.
He knew people; he knew how to organize people and get them to work
together. I think people had great faith in the staff, the people
who advised him, Phil Buchen, Bill Seidman - - local people we
knew - - and of course the Washington people who we knew by reputation.
I think Jerry was great on tapping resources of the right kind and
making decisions and then making them work.
SOAPES:
Once, he was out of the presidency he decided
not to move back here and instead moved to Southern California.
Was the local community upset about that move?
WEATHERS:
I wouldn't say upset. It would have been nice if
he had come back and yet with Betty's health problems, we could
see the reason. And this was the reason, it was for Betty's health.
-16-