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    "label": "September 29, 1973 - Nixon, Kissinger, FRG Chancellor Willy Brandt",
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    "title": "September 29, 1973 - Nixon, Kissinger, FRG Chancellor Willy Brandt",
    "citationUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1552614",
    "collections": [
        "Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)",
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    "ocrText": "File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library\nMEMORANDUM\nTHE WHITE HOUSE\nWASHINGTON\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nMEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION\nPARTICIPANTS:\nPresident Nixon\nDr. Henry A. Kissinger, Secretary of State and\nAssistant to the President for National\nSecurity Affairs\nMaj. General Brent Scowcroft, Deputy Assistant\nto the President for National Security Affairs\nWilly Brandt, Chancellor of the Federal Republic\nof Germany\nGuenther Van Well, Political Director\nAmb. Berndt von Staden, FRG Ambassador to\nthe United States\nDATE AND TIME: Saturday, September 29, 1973\n11:00 a. m.\nPLACE:\nThe Oval Office\nKissinger: The Chancellor has had a hectic week.\nE.O. 12958, SEC. 3.5\nNSC MEMO, 11/24/96, STATE DEPT. GUIDELINES State leview 3/8/04\nPresident: I thought you would take Saturday off.\nNARA. DATE 3/3/04\nBrandt: It's a very nice place.\nPresident: Where are you going from here?\nDECLASSIFIED\nBrandt: Trout fishing tomorrow, maybe.\nKissinger: The Chancellor gave a powerful speech at the UN.\nPresident: Did all these [press] come with you?\nGENALD FORD\nBrandt: Not all of them.\nBY\nCLASSIFIED BY HENRY A. KISSINGER\nSCHEDULE OF ENECUTIVE ORDER 11:52\nEXEMPT FROM GENERAL DECLASSIFICATION\nEXEMPTION CATEGORY 5 (b) (1,3)\nAUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED ON Imp. to det.\nSEGRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSECREF/NODIS/XGDS\n*\n2.\nPresident: How did you feed them?\nWhat, another group of press? This is more than Gromyko.\nBrandt knows this country as well as we do.\nBrandt: Not so well. I've been in the West only twice.\nKissinger: Are you going to Florida?\nPresident: It's too late. I stayed for you.\nWe have to have something important come from this meeting,\nall this attention.\n[The press leaves. ]\nPresident: As you know, you're always welcome. I'm glad you could\nstop here. We could go into any subject you would be interested in:\nEurope; bilateral relations. Henry has been so busy he didn't give me\na paper to memorize.\nBrandt: On Europe. Some progress toward unity has been made, but not\nas fast as should. We are working in NATO. A group of the Nine are\nmeeting today to work out some of the problems. It could be worked out\nsoon, but we could take more time.\nPeople in Europe raise the question when will you make your trip?\nWe shouldn't interfere; that should be your choice -- whenever you think\nis the right time. I would prefer a trip this year, but whenever you\nthink the time is right.\nPresident: The constructive attitude of your government on European\nproblems has been most helpful when other European governments are\nnot as enthusiastic or are opposed to the idea of the Year of Europe.\nWe raised it, but the idea that we are forcing it on Europe as an American\nidea is not our intent. The major countries must play a major role, but\nwe welcome the views of all countries in Europe. We want to disabuse all\nof them that we have the idea of objecting to Europe talking it through like\nthis great new element we brought about.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n3.\nWhich brings me to a major aspect. When major meetings are\nrecommended, we should know beforehand how they will come out. We\nneed substance, not just atmospherics.\nThat is why preliminary discussions are so important. (1) To get\naway from the idea of a dominant U.S., and (2) to pave the way for a\nsubstantive declaration of our mutual interests.\nI tried to work out for Henry to go on a short trip to Europe the\nmiddle of October. You are going to Bonn.\nKissinger: I am still working it out with the Foreign Minister. There\nis a Council of Ministers meeting in London and I could go for that\npurpose.\nPresident: I appreciate your interest in a trip this year. The timing\ndepends on how the substance goes. The meetings should be highly sub-\nstantive. There should be a new spirit of cooperation in the Alliance.\nIt is important, now that we and you and others are committed to\ndetente. This is a good period, not a dangerous one. Premature moves\ncould undercut detente. We see no moves that they are cutting back\nbut on the contrary, they are stepping it up.\nWe must move diplomatically, economically, politically, etc., to\nconfirm our solidarity and sense of purpose. The FRG agrees with this.\nIf we followed what some people want -- 40% troop reductions -- you\nwould be sitting there alone.\nBrandt: I agree that the tone should be substantive but symbolism also\nplays a role.\nIt is important that if you meet with Brezhnev next year, I meet\nwith him, Pompidou, and Heath now. Since we are having these contacts,\nwe need to demonstrate getting together in the West. If I am asked, can\nI say the President has a trip under consideration for the time that is best?\nPresident: You could say a trip would be useful when we have made\nsufficient progress. My plan upon that could be near the end of the year\nor early next. Henry?\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n4.\nKissinger: When you set a date, you are against a wall. The Chancellor\ncould say that in our meeting today, we are making progress.\nBrandt: We could say it after Henry's discussions in Europe.\nPresident: And when he meets with the Foreign Ministers, he will report\nto the President. We will analyze it and make definitive plans at that time.\nBrandt: I like this formula of deciding after Henry's trip so it gets out of\nthe idea of bilateralism. I might get out in front of Pompidou, etc.\nWe hope you will visit more than one capital; we understand the\nMayor of Berlin hopes for a few hours.\nPresident: That is easy.\nBrandt: We have the alliance and relations between the Economic Community\nand the U.S. and Canada.\nAs for the alliance, I raised it with the others the other day. France\nhas a special problem with the alliance. It is in our interest to bring them\nin as much as possible. I would propose that Pompidou ask for a meeting\nof the heads of the alliance for a meeting in Paris even though the alliance\nis in Belgium. I would send a letter today. Under the common chairman-\nship of France and the United States. I will try to convince him and I think\nhe might accept.\nKissinger: I have the impression they are looking for a way out and would\nwelcome it.\nBrandt: I understand there is a Canadian draft of the declaration in which\nyou and the French are not committed but I do not think it is a reasonable\nbasis.\nI think we should not dwell too much on principles of democracy. If\nwe take in too much of this, we get into a discussion of Portugal, Greece,\nTurkey. If we concentrate on security, and not repeat the same things we\nhave already said, but avoid this.\nKissinger: We will submit a U.S. position on NATO in a week or so.\nI don't know if it will be the French position but I think France will not\nobstruct. So we can make progress. I asked the Dutch not to pontificate\nso much.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n5.\nIt is enough to tie detente to security, MBFR, etc. But as few\nideological points as can get away with. I will have a draft for the\nPresident Monday or Tuesday.\nBrandt: This is a fine line. You can't categorize Portugal, Greece,\nTurkey.\nKissinger: That is their purpose.\nPresident: Yes, but there has to be some idealism. We can't just talk\nhardware but we must find drafters who can put it in without antagonizing\nthose who have none.\nKissinger: We can put some in the EC declaration where it would be easier.\nBrandt: Another problem would be having Papadopoulos at the meeting.\nPresident: Do you know him?\nBrandt: No.\nThen if I could say a few words on the EC declaration. We are both\ncompetitors and cooperators. If you visited the Economic Community in\nBrussels, perhaps after the Paris meeting, you would be welcomed by\nthe Prime Minister of the country that is chairman, the President of the\nCommission, and the Foreign Ministers of the others. You know the draft\nwas prepared in Copenhagen. Henry thinks it is rather weak, but I think\nit is not too difficult to add to it. Perhaps we have made progress today.\nSince we got an interesting document, the Canadians are worried they will\npull out of it.\nKissinger: They will be in the NATO part.\nPresident: They can't have it both ways. They want to pull out and yet\nnot.\nBrandt: But if it is a common declaration, the Canadians may want the\nJapanese in, which is a little more difficult. But they are coming to Bonn\nnext week.\nKissinger: I think you will find the Japanese are not prepared to sign\nanything very specific, maybe a third declaration.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nis\nGENALD\nSEGRET/NODIS/XGDS\n6.\nPresident: We can't let them feel left out.\nKissinger: We will give the Germans the Japanese draft they did.\nPresident: Henry, what is your reaction to a meeting with the Community?\nI don't stand on protocol, but the problem is more fundamental. I don't\nthink we can do anything which puts the Economic Community here and the\nU.S. here -- as you say, as competitors.\nI know the commission expressed the view that I wouldn't see the\nForeign Ministers. That is not the problem -- it is whether in doing it we\nhave a common position, whether it's here or over there.\nKissinger: The position you instructed us to take, Mr. President, is that\nwe not be confronted with a position we didn't help formulate and then\nconfront us with an instructed declaration. This was avoided by this\nmeeting today. If the NATO meeting is as I described, then I think the\nChancellor's idea would meet requirements, because we would have\nnegotiated the document beforehand. Personally, I think we could accept\nit if the NATO meeting is a summit.\nPresident: How does that sound?\nBrandt: We think there should always be bilater al contacts. But you must\nbe aware that as Europe grows, there will be some things that will be more\ndifficult than before. If we didn't attempt to work out a common position,\nthere is no reason for a united Europe. But in the interest of cooperation.\nPresident: In the United States there is the growing feeling of isolation.\nSenator Percy was here today. Henry said to me he never voted against\nwhen we asked him to, if we hold him to it. Is that right?\nThey say it is a peace policy. We are talking with the Soviets, the\nChinese, so we can relax. We mustn't get the feeling in Congress that\nEurope is ganging up; there will be terrible price to pay.\nThe EC we know will be in competition but it would not be a political\nconfrontation. The world is too small for an American bloc and a European\nbloc. That is why we had Jackson here.\nBrandt: I don't understand.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n7.\nPresident: He represents the view that the burden is too big. Henry, do\nyou want to add anything?\nKissinger: The Chancellor asked that Mansfield be at lunch; he will be.\nBrandt: I didn't ask, but it's a good idea.\nKissinger: Be that as it may, if he gets into it, you will see a strong\nblind urge to cut forces.\nWe are doing our best to stem it. That is why we want to show\nsolidarity with Europe to offset this.\nOn offset, you have Symington and Mansfield who say it's a heavy\ndrain. With Mansfield, it's a philosophical position.\nWe will have a public campaign against this. You will see high\nposture.\nPresident: I will back a cut, too.\nSome of the more thoughtful partisans see the danger of turning to\na fortress America concept in a day when it makes no sense.\nThe idea of a collective approach to the problems came during the\nDemocratic administration, and now a number of them are objecting to it.\nKissinger: The older politicans are for us; all the younger ones are\ndoing it politically. I think we can defeat them when we get on the\noffensive. When I am in New York, I will be getting a group together on\nthis and on defense issues to talk on this.\nThe more offset we can get, the more it will help.\nBrandt: Yes, Shultz will be in Bonn next week. I hope my American\nfriends will realize we have been helpful on the military side.\nPresident: We completely understand. It is just a political problem here.\nIn the larger context, the Year of Europe will help. People must be\nreminded what NATO does and show it must be changed. Reeducate the\npeople.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n8.\nKissinger: I can be candid. American newsmen go to Europe and have\ninterviews and come back and write articles saying Europe is repudiating\nus, etc. To the extent we can show solidarity, the better off we are.\nBrandt: Sometimes it is difficult. I had with Pompidou the best talk\never in June, but the press turned it to a confrontation. When I was in\nChicago Thursday, I discussed the alliance with the Council on Foreign\nRelations and they were very positive.\nPresident: We need more spokesmen like you.\nBrandt: Your country is too big!\nKissinger: The prestige of the Chancellor here is tremendous.\nPresident: Yes, you have a big following here.\nAll this brings us back to the fundamental problem this year of\ndanger and promise. If we can put it together, we can have another 25\nyears to discuss it.\nIt is good to find that Chou En-lai urges us to stay in Europe.\nWhy is that, Henry?\nKissinger: He wants us to tie down Soviet troops in Europe.\nBrandt: The Chinese ambassador said very good what you said about\nGerman unity.\nKissinger: They are good supporters of NATO and the EC.\nPresident: We appreciate the constructive role which your government\nhas played. You have to stay close to France and Britain but we appreciate\nyour cooperation. Our goals are very much together. You know we have a\nGerman-speaking Foreign Minister. How's his German?\nKissinger: I speak no language without an accent!\nBrandt: You are becoming an honorary citizen of Fuerth.\nPresident: Where is it?\nKissinger: It's the same relation to Nuremburg as Brooklyn is to New York.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n9/28/73\nPres/Bundt/ HR)\nK\nCb bad herting arout\nP\nThrought you and tab SNT of\nB\n- Very unis Mare\nP\nwhere for him\nB\nT unt fashing Insurance anyth.\nK\nP\nB good powerful you 2 at UN\nam thre (pread) Lane you\nB\nhrt all\nP\nHmr food them?\nwhat smother gery from\nKenr there this arrompto\nP\nB known This cruntry as well as an\nB\nnot to and for west only time\n4\nGring F bridn\nP\nToos lnts. Staget for you. K amout to gt argusts\nus/ State.\nP\n1107\nHand't to have screating ingotent cane from sity, Mth's attention\nProvat\nQ gm Bern atmop Grad Jun cmll stay cared /\nyo instron enhet. Europe; K has so\nberry years me a f you\nB\n-\nan F mups, Sand progonos, not as fost as should\nformy Working MINATO. Energy of 9 maty Forty\nto work and sorvey prochure. & exclarg criml\nbe werbs dont soon, inture cauld tabe need Uni.\nPeople in Em vase prosting win will 1gr\nwere your Try. We shouldn't interfice that\nyour chaice, your this right Thing\n2 Lomit prefore this year, but\nthink time is inght\n/\nather de of gone gent on Em\nproblems has here const hough when atter\nEarr galts but withing oppoints\ncha that Year of [ on wt rancel intian\nis an ammun eiha are priving on Een\nea ant am intent. major constries\nDECLASSIFIED\nE.O. 12956, SEC. 3.5\nN9C MEMO, 11/24/96, STATE DEPT. GUIDELINES state Rev: cw 3/8/04.\nGERALDY\nBY_lay laby\nNARA DATE 8/3/04\nunit lm inger mk but and whome nine\nfall- W ant to all that M have\nretra R jumit to E hr thing Then have this\ngreat him\nwhich hings met anger april, when neger\nmostings rean um should human befrehard hom\nthey will consont, all need subtoner not\njust atrophises\nthat why pt public disease 10 injustry\nI\nTog it army por then of definit US E 2 Do\nyou intenest the way for 6 subs, fruntine\nTrut to work out to KTo go short Trip GEW\nK\nstill withing ant N/FM. of m inty in\nunder Oct. your gerry 5 Bran to\nhandm + spart i program.\nP\nyorna interest in tip this year.\nthing byends on how substion pots\nmap should hr high subtrations Should\nof her just of cug of allince.\nImportant now a me -ond an rothers\nmood uned to anti, This 20 good person\nthat Prevactive more could mm event\nWhat Wa HR unmants that they one enthing\nsmk- sp.\nwe must nind dy led, pol etc to\nindicate am + verse of purpor.\nFAG apera this If ind follment what\nSon. conto-48% your month\nsitting them alone.\nB\nagen that time he drub. but\noso plays a rate\nSing attent that if your nont w Bng myt epain,\nI ment w/hrin H with no.\nSmil and have thise untims we much\nGERALD\nRist Jones\nis\npetting Tryllur in C anby\nIf one cm & say P has ench ensidence\npertine best\nP\ntig worfor when one bank\nthat he mas end of your on early\nmade soff around progress my plurar you\nmind. when set K? alah, engansted will\nR\nB carellary. 10 only Today, mt making\nB\ncomed progress & 4g cother often K Lmg Commin É are\nP\nmnt I IFM'd be will seport AP. am\nwill analyzes make deprestion planes at\nthat This\ny\nShrether formata of eventing pln trip No\ngebort of inhe findation I me pet\nany in paint f. 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