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January 8, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger
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January 8, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger
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Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)
Ford Administration Memoranda of Conversations
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Soviet Union
Monetary systems
Jews
Middle East conflicts
Energy policy
Arms control
Petroleum
United States-Soviet relations
Vietnam War, 1961-1975
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1975
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1975-01-08
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File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
MEMORANDUM
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958 Sec. 3.6
SECREF/NODIS/XGDS
MR 01-125, #3: st ltr 2/12/02
By due NARA, Date 3/11/02
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
PARTICIPANTS:
President Gerald R. Ford
Dr. Henry A. Kissinger, Secretary of State and
Assistant to the President for National Security
Affairs
Lt. General Brent Scowcroft, Deputy Assistant to
the President for National Security Affairs
DATE AND TIME:
Wednesday, January 8, 1975
9:24 - 10:48 a. m.
PLACE:
The Oval Office
Kissinger: Clements is not an intellectual, but he is a square shooter.
We used to have fights, but he never bore grudges or leaked. I like him.
President: Let's talk to Don about it.
Kissinger: I have drafted a letter to Brezhnev. I made it general so
that if he refuses, he is not rejecting you. State can then tell Dobrynin
what has to happen.
The more I think about it, the better I think a Soviet rejection would be
good. Byrd thought that a rejection would hurt Jackson. I told him the
consequences -- they'd get credits from the Europeans -- and he said,
"if you can get that across to the public, many Senators will breathe a
sigh of relief."
Perle is a psychopath. You know the emigration issue will be a running
sore. Even if Brezhnev's intention is good, you know there will be
discrimination.
President: If they reject it, what will Jackson do?
FORD
&
Kissinger: He will try to cut the unused credits and claim it is a gigantic
GERALD
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swindle.
CLASSIFIED BY HENRY A. KISSINGER
EXEMPT FROM GENERAL DECLASSIFICATION
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
SCHEDULE OF EXECUTIVE ORDER 11652
EXEMPTION CATEGORY 5 (b) (3)
AUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED ON Imp. to Det.
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
2
President: How about the Jewish Community?
Kissinger: They won't take the blame. They will be shocked and begin to
blame us. The leaders who meet with you were already making demands
on when the restriction would be lifted. It can't happen fast. If you had
$2 billion in credits to offer them, the Soviets might push, but not for
$300 million.
I said all along that the word "assurances" would get us into trouble.
We will come under attack but I think we can easily turn it.
President: This is all involved in Democratic politics and personal
ambi tions.
Kissinger: I got the impression that Byrd is no great friend of Jackson.
The letter to Brezhnev just restates the detente policy, really.
President: Go ahead and send it.
Kissinger: Jackson wants to have hearings on the Vladivostok agreement.
He wants to cover
[reads from paper].
My point is, first, this is a total invasion of Executive authority. The
Congressional function is to approve treaties, not to participate in
their negotiation.
President: We can't do that. He would want the notes of the NSC meeting.
Kissinger: He wants to know every bureaucratic position and why you
made the decisions you did.
President: I think our strategy should be -- if Jackson comes up with
a renegotiated resolution we should get our friends to add a clause that
if we tried and the Vladivostok agreement failed, the supporters would
vote for additional funds for defense.
Kissinger: Mondale and Kennedy have a resolution that is good. It
puts the additional negotiation after the agreement is signed. I think
you should put out firm instructions to all witnesses as to what they
can say.
FORD
A
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
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President: Would you draft them?
Kissinger: You may have to do it orally -- but maybe it should be in
writing and confront the issue. If we don't do this, Jackson will
unravel the whole thing. Jackson will rake us over the coals. [Described
his experience.
President: Let's do it by letter.
Kissinger: The witnesses shouldn't testify to anything but the final
agreement, not internal positions or other options presented to the
Soviets.
On air-to-surface missiles, I disagree with Schlesinger. You can't
preempt Jackson this way. And if we try to change air-to-surface, the
Soviets will ask for inclusion of subsonic cruise missiles. Maybe that
is good, but my people think we are ahead in that.
President: I told Schlesinger that cruise missiles only survived because
you insisted.
Kissinger: If we need cruise missiles for bomber penetration, they can
be on ships and submarines timed to penetrate simultaneously. If we
have to show how we screwed the Soviets, Jackson could sink the
Vladivostok accord.
Now on the financial issue in the paper. This could be a disaster.
Truman was dealing with a different generation with the Marshall Plan.
This generation is a group of petty narrow politicians. The Europeans
snipe at everything we try -- they object to being screwed.
The Europeans have now accepted Witteveen's second plan. We have
resisted because it puts the Arabs in the driver's seat. IMF voting is
proportional to the contribution. The Europeans like this because it
relieves them of responsibility.
The Europeans will agree to our facility too. We have to keep the
Witteveen fund small enough. It is useful only for small and medium
countries who are moderately affected. If we could keep it at $5 billion,
it would be useless for the industrial countries or the basket cases.
We must keep it at 5-6 and conditional on acceptance of our fund.
FORD
a
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4
President: What leverage do we have?
Kissinger: It can't happen without us. Also we can reject the consumer-
producer meeting. Simon agrees, but he won't stick with it. You should
meet with us and tell him he can't yield without your approval.
President: Who will meet with
Kissinger: Five, ten, twenty -- a whole week. Simon agrees. But he
talks tough before the meeting and caves in at the meetings.
President: The paper says this is a British [Healey] proposal.
Kissinger: Yes. The Brits need the money now. Britain is a tragedy - -
it has sunk to begging, borrowing, stealing until North Sea oil comes in.
We gain nothing by this facility. It is only to give the West the feeling
it can master its destiny. That Britain has become such a scrounger
is a disgrace -- but Britain will support us.
President: All this argues why we must be tough in the energy program.
Kissinger: I agree. Incidentally, that alleged threat of famine -- the
Saudis called their Ambassadors in to say that no European country
would be cut off -- just maybe the U.S. No European has told us that.
It is okay for us because it will get Europe off our back in a war.
President: Will you give me a talking paper to talk with Simon?
Kissinger: If he can say he has no authority to give, he will be okay.
Sadat says I should go out on 3 February and stay there until it is finished;
in the meantime we should send him our proposal. I am reluctant to do
that. He looks desperate we could wake up and find him overthrown.
If we give him a paper, he may say it is insufficient and publish it or he
may accept and we may not be able to sell it to Israel.
If I go to Cairo on the 3rd in this circumstance
It also is a sign of the times that Fahmy can go to Moscow but not here.
Allon will give us nothing new. But I think we must tell him the U.S.
FORD
a
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
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5
relationship depends on making a deal with Egypt. I think we have to
tell them we need a promise of the passes and oil fields and rely on
me to get what I can.
We need an agreement so that when Geneva reconvenes it won't be a
two-bloc situation. We must also back Sadat and let him show that his
method gets results.
Third, if we get a deal, it will take six to nine months to implement.
This gives us 1975 to build our energy and economy. It doesn't solve
our problems, but it gives us time and shows that those who work with
us can make progress.
If we could get five kilometers on the Golan, we could keep it going for
five years.
President: Should you tell Allon that we cannot approve the long-term
authority if they don't go along?
Kissinger: Absolutely. And if the leaking doesn't stop, we will have
to adjust our foreign policy. Maybe you should do it as well as I, so
they really know.
Good news -- the political talks have started on Cyprus.
President: One quick thing on Vietnam.
Kissinger: We had a WSAG. Here is the situation. The cuts last year
put them on static defense. You know that the GVN needs mobility and
firepower to survive. If we don't get a supplemental, the WSAG think
it will unravel.
President: Let's ask for one.
Kissinger: And I would mention in the State of the Union that here is a
people who agreed to peace on the assumption of our support.
The only thing North Vietnam knows is massive brutality. There are
signals we can give, but all it would cause is a little hell here. B-52's
to Guam or Thailand. The problem in Thailand is elections -- I don't
agree. We could put a carrier into the Tonkin.
FORD
&
SEGRET/NODIS/XGDS
GERALD
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SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
6
The Pentagon should stop signalling carrier moves. We could move
F-4's to Clark.
Another problem is that South Vietnam doesn't have mines. They
could mine if things get out of control. But the DOD lawyers oppose
it on the basis of Article 7 of the Paris Agreement. That is insane.
North Vietnam hasn't obeyed Article 7 at all. My people want to be
able to claim we have obeyed Article 7.
President: I think we should do it.
Kissinger: One other thing. State wants a contingency paper in case
we don't get the Supplemental, and we will face negotiations. But
negotiations are useful only if there is a real military stalemate. [He
described the "Ducky" example. ] They are the toughest in the world to
deal with.
SECRET/NODIS/XGDS
FORD a LIBRARY'S LIBRARY OERALD
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GERALD
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GERALD ? FORD