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    "localId": "1553546",
    "label": "September 28, 1976 - Ford, Kissinger, FRG Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich Genscher",
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    "title": "September 28, 1976 - Ford, Kissinger, FRG Vice Chancellor Hans-Dietrich Genscher",
    "citationUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/1553546",
    "collections": [
        "Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)",
        "Ford Administration Memoranda of Conversations"
    ],
    "subjects": [
        "Soviet Union",
        "Germany (West)",
        "North Atlantic Treaty Organization. (4/4/1949 - )"
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    "ocrText": "File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library\nMEMORANDUM\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS THE WHITE HOUSE\nWASHINGTON\nMEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION\nPARTICIPANTS:\nHans-Dietrich Genscher, Vice Chancellor and\nMinister for Foreign Affairs, FRG\nAmb. Berndt von Staden, FRG Ambassador to the US\nDr. Heinz Weber, Ministry of Foreign Affairs (Inter-\nDr. Guenther Verheugen, Special Asst.\npreter)\nto Foreign Minister\nPresident Ford\nDr. Henry A. Kissinger, Secretary of State\nBrent Scowcroft, Assistant to the President\nfor National Security Affairs\nDATE & TIME:\nTuesday - September 28, 1976\n2:25 - 3:27 p.m.\nPLACE:\nThe Oval Office\nPresident: We wish you the very best. Please give my very best to the\nChancellor.\nKissinger: How does it look?\nGenscher: Over the last two weeks we have made headway and we expect\na majority of 2-3 percent, with some loss for the SPD and a slight gain\nfor the FDP. One institute predicts 9.5 percent for us.\nPresident: We started about 32 points behind, then it narrowed to 10 points.\nThen it fell back. Now we are behind 1-2-3 percent, depending on the poll.\nWe are ahead or even except in the South and he is in some trouble there.\nSo it will be a real horse race.\nGenscher: It is still true what the Chancellor told you before. He expressed\nhis best wishes and he said if we could do as well in the television debate as\nthe President did, we will be fine.\nCLASSIFIED BY Brent Scowcroft\nEXEMPT FROM GENERAL DECLASSIFICATION\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSCHEDULE OF EXECUTIVE ORDER 11652\nEXEMPTION CATEGORY\n5 (B) (3)\nDECLASSIFIED\nAUTOMATICALLY DECLASSIFIED ON Imp. to Det.\nE.O. 12958, SEC. 3.5\nNSC MEMO, 11/24/98, STATE DEPT. GUIDELINES state Review 3/13/04\nBY lot\n.\nNARA DATE 7/29/OH\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n- 2 -\nPresident: Is it an interview or direct questioning of each other?\nGenscher: It is direct. It's Schmidt and me, Kohn and Strauss. We have\nhad individual ones which we think we won.\nPresident: They are a pain in the neck, but they can be helpful.\nHow did your UN speech go?\nGenscher: I hope it went well. I hope my remarks about Germany will\ninduce the GDR to respond. I met yesterday with Gromyko and perhaps\nI could discuss that.\nPresident: Please.\nGenscher: I discussed our proposal for a court of human rights. We had\na sharp exchange on it. It isn't directed at the GDR but really\nGromyko\nopened by expressing disappointment in the FRG's attitude toward the Soviet\nUnion, especially regarding their initiative on disarmament, MBFR and\ngenerally. He very strongly tried to show us the opportunities which we\nmight have if we didn't so closely follow the United States. Never have they\ntried so hard to drive a wedge between us. He said the Soviet Union is\ninterested in improving relations but that would depend on an increase of\nflexibility on our part. He mentioned MBFR, but generally. I told him\nthat we would in no field go it alone, but in every case would work in con-\njunction with our allies. It is the same tactic of promising things generally\nin response to different behavior.\nPresident: Was he in a good mood?\nGenscher: Yes, but businesslike in the formal talks.\nPresident: I can't say anything will come of our talks with him. We may\ndiscuss SALT but I don't expect anything to come of it before our election.\nWe have just been too preoccupied.\nHenry has been, of course, very busy with our African initiative. I guess\nhe has told you about it. We are getting surprising domestic support for\nwhat we are trying to do.\nGenscher: In Germany there has been a big change about South Africa. In\nApril I was attacked for supporting Secretary Kissinger's Lusaka speech.\nNow there is a realization of the real nature of the threat there.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n- 3 -\nWhat do you think is behind the sharp Soviet attack on our African policy?\nPresident: I don't think they thought we would respond the way we have\nafter their success in Angola. I think they are very upset that their\nprogress has been thwarted.\nThe sentiment in this country has changed substantially over the past few\nmonths. Our Congressional leadership was supportive. Of course they\na sked about the nature of the financial element. I said we would contribute\nbut it was multilateral and the Europeans would have to help.\nGenscher: I think this initiative has counteracted the Soviet strategy to\nincrease its position in South Africa.\nKissinger: If the Soviets take the very radical leaders, and the black\nleaders take less radical positions, the Soviets can embarrass them\nwith their people. And the Soviets can bury some of the leaders.\nGenscher: How about the Chinese?\nKissinger: They are warning against the Soviets, which operationally\nmeans they are supporting us. But it is clear they (the Soviets) have suffered\na setback or they wouldn't have reacted so sharply.\nGenscher: Gromyko played the Berlin question easily. There was no mention\nof Berlin and the direct election of the European Parliament. He said they\nare interested in keeping Berlin free of great power involvement. If you\ncould mention Berlin to Gromyko it would be helpful to us. We are susceptible\nto pressure on Berlin and any statement by you would help.\nPresident: I would be pleased to do so.\nI had a good meeting with the NATO Perm Reps recently. I had a good\nfeeling about the state of the Alliance. I think things are going well on the\ntank program. Defense plans to award a contract in November, but I\nunderstand we have made great progress on communality.\nGenscher: Leber reported on the arrangements with great satisfaction.\nI agree with your comment on the Alliance. Once the elections in various\ncountries are over, we can get things going again.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n- 4 -\nIn MBFR it is important to make some progress but we must insure that\nany agreement is not one-sided. You are in the midst of your campaign\nand I will talk to Secretary Kissinger on the plane.\nOur economic program about which Chancellor Schmidt spoke to you,\ncontinues. I think it will be about 6 percent. Once again, may I express\nmy and the Chancellor's good wishes for success.\nPresident: It is always good to talk to you and the Chancellor and I hope\nwe will have many chances in the future.\n(Discussed our economic statistics.)\nThe momentum is starting again and if we don't go too fast I think we can\nhave stable and substantial growth.\nGenscher: That is our problem, so we plan no additional investment.\nPresident: The British pound is doing poorly.\nSECRET/NODIS/XGDS\n-Verkengers/\nHerry wase\n2\nPI Genscher\n28 Septic\nP\nw any lest, plance give my\nvery lest to J Chanaller\nK\nHow Insit bork ?\nG\nOver erat 2 creeks we home mach braching turn\nexpect injerety of 2-390, w/zorine lost of for\nSPO + shout you for FPD. One institute\npredite 9.5 Pm is,\nP\nW e started about 3.2 ats behind, them it\ncransmed to 10 + fell la Wom me are\nbehind 1-2-39 depending on goed we\nexcept inc South + him\nforms trankles this do it will bea a we\nhonse ince.\n6\nIt Hill the what you\nbafore - expersent list wish Transati - + he sand\ninj live earll do cer millon Tu as Pdid,\nweirl be find\nP\ndo it interview or chirt\nG\nItis driet- the Schmilt me, Kohlt\nStrans. we have had include onls which\nwe think me was\nP\nThey helpful. an pain inc ruck, but they fan he\nHow and your U14 speech\nG\nI befeitment and I My unoths\nabout Carry will inchea GDR to respond,\nI mut yestenday us/ Georgha + puhps & emild\ndrivers that\nP\nPlanse\nG\nI discussed our propert for OC emut of\nhuman eights. We hnd a shorp xchmye\non it, 4 stesint directed at GUR hit\nundly\nFORD\nDECLASSIFIED\n&\nE.O. 12958, SEC. 3.5\nRY Lah\nNSC MEMO, 11/24/98, STATE DEPT. GUIDELINES state Rview 3/13/04\nDIRALD\nLIBRARY\nNARA DATE 7/29/04\nYes Grouphor opened by exp persing reporating\nin FRG Mithilf through S unitiative on\ndisarmant, MBFR & gerelly. Hear day\nstrangly their X show use C offectivities\nhave if are lidn't to eligib\nfolmoc US. weren bene they tried to hand\nto david inedge bet. us. He simil SU\ninterstand in enquiring relations but that world\ndepend on flex on one purt. He individual\nNIBER, but gerely. & total him that the would\nin no fild ger it alone, hat in why call world\nwork in conjunition or/ am artive. Itc\nsame tatic of provising thing gently his\nresponset lif behavier.\nP\nNees he in god und\nG\nYes, but (Though in c formal tires\nP\n& east soy any thing will come of an talk\nw/ him. we every drives Swit, but &\ndnt t any thing A cases of it before ones\nelection, We home first both he\nHeary has has ofcorese any has w/\nam aprion institution I que what\nTHIS son about it we for an getting\nsuripring downstri repport for what\nIn Generary there has lema hrig change about\nme you 5 10.\nE\nS, africe In agail Iron attached for\npaypenting R apr hresoka yuch. worther\nis a mahy the fur whit nature 1 that\nthree. What do you think is behil -\nshay Sen attach on one apr poting\nP\nI dnt we werld inspored\nGERALO\nC any in have after this twicks in anyth\nI think they one why eyest that their\nprogram has have\nSentement in this country has changes\nsubtotal who over - past from was,\n1\nciny was say patrice - they armed\nabout evature f- from ind element, & pind\nand would earthints but it was inmultated\n+ - 4 und would home to help\nG\nthink this institutive his somittractil Saw\nstrategy to include its pisition m in Sm africa.\nK\nG- Sing take why advid leaders FL blacks\nhis 10, c Lovs em inturrass them w/ their people.\nand L Sw. can hury some of c' balks.\nG\nHmm about Chinse\nK\nThey one warning agent c Sour, which\nopenly they supporting Ms.\nBut in is chan they wouldn't have support\na setting or They armodn't have much to\nshrungh\nG\nGrougho played c Butin greation ensity.\nus monthing of Berlin & dnit electron of Emo\nfor He find thing instruction\nin huping Buhn fees of GP $\nIf you would invition Balin to Groughout\nwould he harpful to hs- we\nto persone on Bertin & any statement\nyou named help\nP\nI would he planse do so, & hnd a good\nonly w/c Wate Peranky worth. 9 had\na good forting about state fe C all\n& this thing and going crollen C Toruk\nFORD LIBRARY\njury. Dr. plms & award entract in 2005, but\nme home make quint/scrp on\nG\nLehr an e anayments w/ gurt\nsortis. I eyes w/ your ensurent are C\nallumid One in coming\ncentribes an and and conget things\nIn MBFR it my atmt her male\ntow forg. htere must nouse Chrt any\na jurtment is intonessed\nyou and in mist f\nI write with I plans. Over on pray\nabout which Schoolt epoke entimes sthik\nint and he about 6%, Oace ceynical very\n& 4 priss my & Chomelle's good withs for\nsmoke\nP\nalway good (to talk your C Chanulks + hope\nwe will have many chanks inc forture.\n(Drawson are live statishis).\nmornuth is etarting again + if he dnit\ngo to fast strink we can home stable\n+ evatined quarts\nG\nThat investment is ones pur, so use plan no additional\nP\nThe Be. paid is doing porty.\nGERALD & FORD"
}