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    "ocrText": "DOCUMENT WITHDRAWAL RECORD [NIXON PROJECT]\nDOCUMENT\nDOCUMENT\nNUMBER\nTYPE\nSUBJECT/TITLE OR CORRESPONDENTS\nDATE\nRESTRICTION\nI\nTakon\nHAK and Congressman Halpern (4 pp)\n9/8/72\nB\nIA\nTckon\nHAR SANITIZED and Nicholas Von Hoffman (2pp.)\n9/18/72\nD\n11\nTelcon\nHATE and Barbarr Walters (5pp.)\n9/18/72\nSANITIZED\nFILE GROUP TITLE\nBOX NUMBER\nKissings Transcripts- Telephone Conversations\n15\nFOLDER TITLE\n1972 8-18 Sept. 10\nRESTRICTION CODES\nA. Release would violate a Federal statute or Agency Policy.\nE. Release would disclose trade secrets or confidential commercial or\nB. National security classified information.\nfinancial information.\nC. Pending or approved claim that release would violate an individual's\nF. Release would disclose investigatory information compiled for law\nrights.\nenforcement purposes.\nD. Release would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of privacy\nG. Withdrawn and return private and personal material.\nor a libel of a living person.\nH. Withdrawn and returned non-historical material.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential 1 ibrary\nNATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION\nDECLASSIFIED 1989-235-084/00024\nNA 14021 (4-85)\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nClark Mollenhoff/Kissinger\n9/8/72/ 10:50 a.m.\nM: Hello Henry?\nK: Yes Clark.\nM: Say this lawyer Taub per Hoffa has some comments today\nsaying you had cleared -\nK: No, no - here is the story - this is for your information, I\ndon't want to be quoted. I got a call from Harold Gibbons who\nis you know Vice President of the Teamster Union saying that\nhe had a matter of extreme national importance to discuss with\nme - he didn't tell me what it was. I said alright I will be in\nSan Clemente next week, call me. The next thing I knew Gibbons\nand Taub actually showed up - I hadn't even heard of Taub until\nthen. Without an appointment - no let's say that that was a\nmisunderstanding. Taub then said that Hoffa should go to\nHanoi as a negotiator and negotiate the release of Prisoners.\nI said - no one negotiates for us and we do not send private\npeople to negotiate. And he asked for my help in getting permission\nfrom the parole board to go. I said two things: (1) no one negotiates\nfor us and we do not want you to go on our behalf, (2) whether you\ngo as a private citizen is your business and it is between you and\nthe legal authorities. I cannot intervene in this. And if you want\nto go as a private citizen you have to take that up with Kleindi enst\nor whoever else handles these cases. After that, Taub called me\nonce more and asked me whether I would meet Hoffa - to talk to\nhim prior to his going to Hanoi as a private citizen and I said no.\nThen Taub called again and I didn't take his call and he made some -\nand he indicated well maybe he would have to make a public statement,\nso I had Haig call him and Gibbons to say that we could not tolerate\nsuch methods and we could not have him speak on our behalf.\nM: Now, when did this take place?\nK: All of this happened before the middle of July. Thirdly, we then\ncalled Hoffa and told him that he couldn't represent us - that what\nhe did as a private citizen was his business. You see what I mean?\nM: Yeah.\nK:\nAs the National Security Adviser I can only take the position he can't\nspeak for the U.S. Government and finally we passed a message to\nthe North Vietnamese saying we wanted to make clear that Hoffa in\nno sense spoke for us and that was the extent of our involvement and\nall of this was completed by July 20th.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nClark Mollenhoff/Kissinger\n9/8/72\n2\nM: All completed by July 20th.\nK: I mean all of these events happened between July 5-20 and I\ndidn't know anything since then, I was astonished by the news\nstories as everyone else was.\nM: Well, this is rather typical of Hoffa - I dealt with him -\nK: This is not an interview - you can't quote me.\nM: No no I understand this - just for background in setting out\nthe facts on it.\nK: You know why would I send Hoffa who is on parole and who has\nno record of involvement in international affairs - what conceivable\nwould we have to have him in Hanoi?\nM: Well there couldn't be - the fact of the matter is though, within\nhis union he is sold generally as a tough negotiator and an able\nnegotiator - I know that this is crap too.\nK: I am not questioning that but I remember I said to Gibbons when\nhe was there - I said look I am susposed to be a good negotiator\nwould you ask me to negotiate your next contract with the companies.\nYou know he doesn't know anything about the subject.\nI kn don't want to get into a fight with Hoffa - my only argument is\nthat the National Security Adviser of the President did not ask\nHoffa to intercede for him - to intercede for the U.S. Government\nin Hanoi. That is the only issue involved.\nM: Did you ever talk with Rogers about this or about the fact that he\nmight go over there in some capacity.\nK: NO. Frankly Clark X between you and me, I was absolutely confident\nthat the legal people wouldn't clear him. So it never occurred to\nme that he could get a passport unless we asked for it and I had no\nintention of asking for it.\nM: Well it surprised me - but you see I am aware of how\nHoffa is.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nClark Mollenhoff/Kissinger\n9/8/72\n3\nK: But it never occurred to me that any agency of the government\nwould give a passport without checking with us - that what he\npresented was really true. See, I thought I had it turned off.\nM: The first thing you knew -\nK: There was no reason to tell Rogers because I had told Hoffa\nand Taub that we didn't want it - I didn't think he would go\nto any other agency to ask for a passport claiming he was\nsent by us. I am not sure he did that - I don't know why\nhe got the passport.\nM: Well he managed one way or the other to\nthem up\nthere in the Pardon Office in the Detroit area and he got one\nby them apparently representing that he had White House\nclearance on this whole thing and he had been going around\nmaking the kind of misrepresentation that usually represents\nonly trouble for those who deal with him.\nK: The only thing we dealt with him was one meeting and one\nphone conversation.\nM: Did you talk to Hoffa personally?\nK: I have never talked to Hoffa.\nM: You talked only with --\nK: I talked with Taub personally once and to --\nif\nyou\nM: Do you know/whr he tried to speak to/on Wednesday?\nK: This week? To the best of my knowledge no.\nM: Apparently there is some indication that he tried to reach you\nand talked to somebody in your office.\nK: I don't believe that.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nClark Mollenhoff/Kissinger\n9/8/72\n4\nM: Well I know he at least represented this to the people he was\nwith.\nK: Hoffa?\nM: Hoffa said he was calling Dr. Kissinger at the White House and\nwent over to use the telephone and apparently came back and\nsaid that he didn't get through but he talked to somebody in your\noffice.\nK: Impossible - that I would know. XtX He certainly didn't talk\nto me.\nM: Well no he didn't represent that he had talked to you.\nK: Well I didn't get a message that Hoffa had called.\nM: This is the kind of thing that represented the kind of problems\nwhen Bobby Kennedy had not time for him after a period of time\nbecause he lies through his teeth on things when he doesn't even\nhave to lie.\nK: Look Iknow nothing about Hoffa, I've got nothing to do with Hoffa and\nI have no interest in Hoffa, he is totally out of my field and I have\nno reason to be involved with him that is absolutely all I wanted was\nto have him do whatever he wants to do as a private citizen and to do\nit in a legal way.\nM: Have you had any conversations with Rogers about this?\nSince it happened?\nK: Haig has. It hasn't been a White House issue.\nM: Wellthe\nof the sentence intially was handled\nthrough the President's office.\nK: I had nothing to do with it.\nM: I know that and the terms were very strict on his travel and that\nwas pointed to last December as one of the megating circumstances\nand then subsequently this thing goes through.\nK; I did not talk to Rogers about his passport at all.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nClark Mollenhoff/Kissinger\n9/8/72\n5\nM:\nYou did not.\nK: No.\nM:\nOkay fine.\nK: No one notified my office until after it had happened.\nM: What was the nature of the conversation xtx with Haig?\nK: Well we just wanted to find out what had happened and why.\nBecause we were astonished by this as much as anybody.\nWe were under the impression that he couldn't travel.\nWe thought all of this was a ploy to get him off parole.\nM: Well I think your assumption xxxxxxx there is probably\ncorrect because he wanted to get respectability. There is\nno question about that and with Gibbons would have been\nseeking in every way to have him noted as a great international\nfigure and at that point he probably acted to those active in\nthe political sphere that this might benefit the Administration\nalthough I can't see how the hell it would.\nK: Not at all.\nM: Well it certainly doesn't make your **** tasks any easier.\nK: Well we did what we could - we even told the North Vietnamese -\nI mean we passed the message to them that he didn't represent\nus.\nM: That would have been at what stage?\nK: Before July 25th. All of this happened in the month of July.\nM: Okay Henry I think that basically takes care of all the problems\nthat I have in connection with this - I won't quote you on it but I\nam going to use the information itself.\nK:\nYou can it is understood.\nM:\nOkay fine\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSenator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger\n11:08 a. m., September 8, 1972\nK:\nSenator, how are you?\nM:\nFine. Listen, I'd like to see you sometime briefing either before\nyou go or after you come back. And I know you're rushed right now.\nK:\nWell, can we do it right after I get back?\nS\nM:\nure.\nK:\nIt's about your trip?\nM:\nYeah.\nK:\nCould you give me your preliminary view now becau se between\nyou and me, I'm going to see the Chinese Ambassador this afternoon.\nM:\nOh. Are you going to see him down here?\nK:\nNo, I'm going to New York. That's why my day today is very\nrushed.\nM:\nThat's understandable. But I don't know -- what I was thinking\nof I don't think it would look good for Scott and me together to\nrepeat the trip.\nK:\nI agree with you.\nM:\nI think that George would be lovely to go with but I'm worried about\nhis age and health.\nK:\nRight.\nM:\nI don't know but how about a fellow like Percy? Some enthusiasm\nthere?\nK:\n(laughs) You're more bipartisan than he is. I'm just thinking of\nthe President's reaction, not of mine. I like Chuck, he's a good\nfriend of mine.\nM:\nWell, I just haven't got any names. Cooper would be a good name\nbut he's going out.\nK:\nHe's going out.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 2 -\nSenator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger\n11:08 a. m,, September 8, 1972\nM:\nI don't think would be interested.\nis going to the UN\nand that's about it.\nK:\nWhy don't I talk to the President about the possibility of Percy going\nwith you?\nM:\nWell, that's just a suggestion; I haven't even talked to him.\nK:\nYeah. Actually from our point of view, we have no reason -- the only\nproblem with the Chinese is they don't want to get involved in our\npartisan politics.\nM:\nRight.\nK:\nThe one way they can turn off candidates is by saying they never have\nsingle people.\nM:\nThey have a point.\nK:\nAnd that way they' be safe through 76 you see.\nM:\nThat's right.\nK:\nAnd given the tenor shift of our relations -- this has nothing to do\nwith this campaign when it couldn't happen anyway.\nM:\nOh, no; I can appreciate it and sympathize with the point of view\nexpressed.\nK:\nBut in the runoff toward the 76 campaign, I'm sure they'l want a\nlot of candidates going there and using them as a platform.\nM:\nOh, I see. Oh, you're looking on Percy as one of those.\nK:\nNo, no, no, no. As long as they pair people -- No, that's why they\ndon't want you alone. It has nothing to do with you alone.\nM:\nYeah, yeah.\nK:\nBut let me talk to the President. If we could find some way of which\nwe've asked you or something like that.\nM:\nYeah. Well, you know, that's what we were talking about in the\nbeginning, Henry.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 3 -\nSenator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger\n11:08 a. m., September 8, 1972\nK:\nYeah.\nM:\nI'm just interested in a followup because my primary interest is in\nthat area. I think it would be beneficial to you and the President.\nK:\nThere's absolutely no question about it. And if the election goes the\nway the polls indicate, we really want to work very closely with you\nbecause we have to restore some bipartisan -- some greater bipartisanshi\nto our foreign policy than, you know, than events permitted.\nM:\nYeah, yeah. Well, I wouldn't worry too much about the campaign\nbut I wouldn't overkill as those boys down there are doing because\nthey're going to build a little David out of their opponent.\nK:\nReally. In what field are you talking about?\nM:\nThe Presidential race.\nK:\nNo, no; I mean in which -- on what subject?\nM:\nOh, no; everything he makes a statement, they come back with a\nstatement or the President does something and they sort of overpower\nhim. And it's awfully smooth. I think a little bit too smooth, Henry.\nThey ought to go up for air once in a while. Otherwise, they're going\nto make little David.\nK:\nRight.\nM:\nBut they should know what they're doing.\nK:\nWell, I've happily nothing to do with this.\nM:\n(laughter)\nK:\nI don't think my nerves would be equal to --\nM:\nYeah. Well, Henry, do the best you can.\nK:\nLook, I will have a frank talk with him this afternoon. And I may,\nif I have a chance, call you tomorrow. Otherwise, I will call you\nas soon as I get back.\nM:\nAll right. When do you get back?\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 4 -\nSenator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger\n11:08 am, September 8, 1972\nK:\nI'll be back by the end of next week.\nM:\nYeah, okay. I'm glad you're seeing the Ambassador this afternoon.\nK:\nSenator, could I raise one other question with you which I'm not\nreally authorized to do?\nM:\nOkay.\nK:\nWhich has to do with that damn SALT agreement.\nM:\nOh, Lord.\nK:\nWe really would like to get the goddamn thing ratified.\nM:\nWell, what we're going to do, Henry --\nK:\nWe don't mind -- between you and me now -- if this thing drops out\nin the Conference.\nM:\nOh, I understand.\nK:\nIn fact that's what we sort of expect.\nM:\nBut the trouble is, Henry, we've got two small boys in Jackson and\nFulbright. And what we're going to do is to lay it aside until we get the\nrevenue sharing bill out of the way which will be Monday or Tuesday.\nK:\nRight\nM:\nWe're going back on the SALT agreement and we're going to stay\nwith that exclusively till it's finished.\nK:\nLet me tell you what we would really like to do. What the Soviets\nhave asked us to do. Gromyko is over here at the end of September\nand they would like to get this ratified by then and perhaps do it on\nthat occasion.\nM:\nWe'll have it by then, Henry.\nK:\nAnd what we would also like to do is to get SALT II underway.\nM:\nRight.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 5 -\nSenator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger\n11:08 a. m., September 8, 1972\nK:\nWhich we can't do until this is ratified.\nM:\nWell, I'm just as interested as you are.\nK:\nI know you are and I know this isn't a partisan issue. This is something\nthat got way off the rails.\nM:\nThat's right.\nK:\nBetween you and me we weren't watching it and we thought there would\nbe an up and down vote, that it would cost an afternoon. We never\nthought it would cost three weeks.\nM:\nWell, I know. But you've got, as I said, two small boys we have to\ncontend with. But we're going to get on it and we're going to -- Scott\nand I are going to try and broke cloture next week if we can make no\nprogress. Well, I feel certain that we will get it --\nK:\nI really think it would be a national service if we could get it done.\nM:\nThe sooner, the better.\nK:\nRight.\nM:\nOkay, Henry.\nK:\nGood, Senator.\nM:\nFine, Henry, thank you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nHarold Gibbons/Mr. Kissinger\n11:40 m., September 8, 1972\nG:\nHello, Henry, how are you?\nK:\nDo you think you can bring that lawyer under control?\nG:\nTaub?\nK:\nYeah.\nG:\nI don't know how the hell I can.\nK:\nYou know what he's putting out is a lot of bullshit.\nG:\nI know it. I know it but --\nK:\nYou know I never encouraged him to go there.\nG:\nThat's exactly right; I was there.\nK:\nI don't want to take on Hoffa; I've got nothing against Hoffa. In fact,\nI have always felt sort of sorry for him.\nG:\nRight.\nK:\nIf this keeps up, I'm going to get embroiled with Hoffa. It won't do\nhim any good.\nG:\nWhat is he doing now?\nK:\nWell, he's saying I encouraged him. He's saying he went around the\ngovernment here saying he should get a passport because I wanted him\nto go. And he keeps putting out statement after statement. I won't lose\nfrom this\nG:\nNo, but Hoffa shouldn't be made the victim of it either, Henry.\nK:\nBut I really believe Hoffa will be the victim of it because our Justice\nDepartment will start slamming restrictions on him. I don't know\nwhether they will but you know, it's the obvious response.\nG:\nYeah, yeah. Well, I wish I could be helpful but the son-of-a-bitch, I\ndon't know him -- When I brought him into you, Henry, it was only\nbecause --\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 2 -\nHarold Gibbons/Mr. Kissinger\n11:40 a. m., September 8, 1972\nK:\nYou brought him in for humanitarian reasons the way I --\nG:\nan idea and maybe it will work and I just wanted you to evaluate it.\nK:\nthe way you came to me before you went to Hanoi and we've had\na perfectly decent relationship on it.\nG:\nRight, right.\nK:\nYou went as a private citizen. You reported to me before and after.\nG:\nRight.\nK:\nYou never pretended you were an American spokesman; I never\nclaimed you were. It was exactly right.\nG:\nThat's right.\nK:\nWell, look, if you can't do anything -- But your recollection is like\nmine, I told him he couldn't speak for us.\nG:\nYou told him repeatedly a dozen times.\nK:\nRight. Well, that's what I thought.\nG:\nRight.\nK:\nOkay, Harold. I hope to see you sometime when you come through\nhere.\nG:\nOkay, Henry. Good, see you then.\nK:\nOkay, bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nNIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS PROJECT\nDOCUMENT CONTROL RECORD\nITEM REMOVED FROM THIS FILE FOLDER\nA RESTRICTED DOCUMENT OR CASE FILE HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM\nTHIS FILE FOLDER. FOR A DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM REMOVED\nAND THE REASON FOR ITS REMOVAL, CONSULT DOCUMENT ENTRY\nNUMBER\n/\nON EITHER THE DOCUMENT WITHDRAWAL RECORD\n(GSA FORM 7292 OR NA FORM 1421) OR NARA WITHDRAWAL SHEET\n(GSA FORM 7122) LOCATED IN THE FRONT OF THIS FILE FOLDER.\nA sanitized copy substituted for an original item which\nContains information restricted under the Privacy Act.\nNATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION\nNLN FORM 101 (revised 6-85)\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nChuck Mollenhoff/Mr. Kissinger\n2:48 p.m.\n9/8/72\nCM:\nHenry, do you know the date that you sent that message to\nJanoi?\nHK:\nI won't give it to you.\nCM:\nYou won't give it to me. I expected to try. (laughing).\nHK:\nI don't want to give the date and don't say that I sent the\nmessage. Just say that \"word was passed to North Vietnam\nthat he does not represent the United States You don't want\nto say who did it.\nCM:\nNo. Say, I note that Ziegler said that Al Haig also had some\nconversations on this--was that more than one conversation\nHK:\nYes. He talked to Taub and Hoffa.\nCM:\nTaub and Hoffa?\nHK:\nYes. Right.\nCM:\nWould that had been - -\nHK:\nAll of his happened beforethe 20th. Our interest was to get this\nthing cleaned up before my meetings.\nCM:\nTo get what thing cleaned up?\nHK:\nNot to get any confused impressions, as to who represented\nwhom, and who was speaking for whom.\nCM:\nWhat would have Gibbons (?) argument been had-- -\nHK:\nGibbons had no role in this.\nCM:\nGibbons had no role?\nHK:\nGibbons had only the role of bringing Taub by to see whether Taub\nreally had some messages. Gibbons didn't press any of this.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nCM:\nWhat would have Taub's argument have been on behalf of this thing\ngenerally?\nHK:\nWell, that Hoffa was a good negotiator that he had a special - that\nthe North Vietnamese were particularly interested in him. But I don't\nwant to get into a big affair with you.\nCM:\nNo, no, what I am trying to do is simply get for background purposes\nwith the general tenor of these conversations as to what issues\nHK:\nA lot of people offered to help out and that is necessarily bad, we usually\nturn them off. But we do want to find out whether they have any genuine\nmessages, who you know these North Vietnamese are so wierd, so we\nusually find out, do they have a genuine feeler from the North Vietnamese.\nCM:\nUm huh. This would have been just an exploring--whether it was a genuin\nfeeler from the -\nHK:\nWell, when I saw him I didn't know what it was because he had, I was\njust told he had something of importance.\nCM:\nBut then, how many conversations would you have had with him then?\nHK:\nI think I have had two conversations-- one personally and one on the phone,\nat his initiative.\nCM:\nGibbons was there for the personal conversation?\nHK:\nYeh.\nCM:\nWould it have been after that that Haig handled the last conversations with\nTaub and with Hoffa?\nHK:\nYes, right.\nCM:\nThere was no question in your mind that this was not a signal from Hanoi.\nHK:\nNo question.\nCM:\nAnd this would not be a proper person to be handling it.\nHK:\nWell, you know there is no proper person for handling it. We don't\naccept the proposition that Hanoi can take whom they will negotiate with.\nOr that somebody can appoint himself a negotiator.\nCM:\nYou said this morning that Haig had a contact with Rogers.\nHK:\nWell, that was yesterday afternoon.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 3\nCM:\nWas that the friendly conversation?\nHK:\nOh yeh.\nCM:\nIt was--he exhibited no concern--\nHK:\nRogers ?\nCM:\nYes.\nHK:\nWhy should Rogers exhibit concern?\nCM:\nHe had apparently no knowledge of this at all until after--\nHK:\nYeh, but why should he there are 100 guys who come around and offer\nto do things we don't expect them to be issued passports--we never\nasked that a passport be issued. If I walked into the State Department\nand said I--ah the White House wants me to have a passport and if\nthey don't check here, I mean that's just nonsense.\nCM:\nWell, here is the letter that went to Rogers on September 6. \"This\nwill befer to the negotiations with the US Attorney General in behalf\nof James R. Hoffa to visit Hanoi. (This was by Taub). Please be\nadvised that Mr. Hoffa has accepted an invitation extended by the\nVietnam Trade Union of the Democratic Republic of North Vietnam\nto visit Hanoi. The purpose of this trip via the auspices of the Vietnam\nTrade Union will be to visit the American prisoners and negotiate for\ntheir early release. Mr. Hoffa has received official authorization\nand unlimited travel to depart the USA on Thursday, September 7, 1972,\nfor Hanoi traveling via Paris. Accompanying Mr. Hoffa will be\nHarold Gibbons of St. Louis and William L. Taub, New York, all USA\ncitizens. A copy of this formal notification is also being sent to the\nAttorney General. \"\nI take it that the use of the term negotiate would have been Taub's own\n--I - mean it might be misconstrued and it was probably intended to be\na little deceptive.\nHK:\nI don't know about that.\nCM:\nWell, I'm just saying-\nHK:\nMy own\nCM:\nIf you use the terms negotiate-\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 4\nHK:\nMy office was out of this at the end of--from the latter half of July on.\nCM:\nYeah, well ah--\nHK:\nWe had no interest in it.\nCM:\nWell I had just wanted to clear up those two or three points and just\nprecisely what had taken place, the number of conversations that\nthere were.\nHK:\nWell, the first was, you know, the second he called me to see whether\nhe could arrange a meeting between Hoffa and me and that was all.\nThat was the only contact.\nCM:\nWell to see if he could arrange a meeting between Hoffa and you?\nHK:\nYeah.\nCM:\nAnd this was rejected?\nHK:\nYes.\nCM:\nBut you did agree to see someone on behalf of Hoffa\nHK:\nNo. I didn't agree to see anybody.\nCM:\nWell, now I'm ---we're not communicating. Gibbons had contacted\nyou initially, relative to talking with Taub.\nHK:\nHe didn't tell me whom he was bringing.\nCM:\nYeah, he said he had something of importance.\nHK:\nRight.\nCM:\nAnd at that point then he came then announced out to San Clemente.\nHK:\nYes, that may have been a misunderstanding.\nCM:\nYes. And but he had Taub with him?\nHK:\nRight.\nCM:\nAnd then you did discuss with Taub. How long a conversation was that?\nHK:\nMaybe an hour.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 5\nCM:\nAnd then in that conversation did you make clear at that stage--\nHK:\nAbsolutely that we were not I'm sure Gibbons will confirm that.\nCM:\nYeah. On this whole thing now you didn't tell him that he couldn't go.\nHK:\nI told him--no--I told him he could not go as our representative.\nCM:\nBut you were drawing the line here between going as our representative\nHK:\nOr speaking for us. And I said whether he went as a private citizen\nwas between him and the legal agencies of the government and not\nbetween him and me.\nCM:\nYeah. I understand it. These are important distinctions and your\nreason for not rejecting it in sharper terms would have been that the\nwhole idea in sharper terms was because you believed that the legal\nagencies of government would have so many problems to surmount\nthat it would be impossible for him to go.\nHK:\nThat's right and because I don't think it's my job to determine whether\nsomebody should go to Hanoi as a private citizen.\nCM:\nYeah. OK, fine Henry I think that takes care of it.\nHK:\nBut I did tell him I didn't want you know--that even as a private\ncitizen I'd have major difficulties until July 20.\nCM:\nWhy July 20?\nHK:\nBecause I was meeting them on July 19.\nCM:\nEven on a private basis ?\nHK:\nYes, I just didn't want anyone to confuse them.\nCM:\nOK, fine, I think that takes care of me.\nHK:\nThank you.\nCM:\nOK, thank you.\nHK:\nBye.\nCM:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSenator Mike Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger\n3:07 p.m. 9/8/72\nHK:\nHello.\nMM:\nYes, Henry.\nHK:\nSenator, I'm sorry to have kept you on the phone, I didn't know you\nwere\nMM:\nThat's OK I just got on.\nHK:\nGood.\nI talked to the President about our conversation this morning.\nMM:\nUm hum\nHK:\nAnd his view is that it's really going to be hard to find a Republican\nof comparable stature unless it was Scott and he can see why, just\nrepeating the same thing, doesn't make too much sence.\nMM:\nYeah.\nHK:\nAnd he was X wondering whether we could handle it in the way I mentioned\nit to you where you're going at our request. In other words, it isn't\nthat the Chinese are inviting you.\nMM:\nThat would be splendid, Henry.\nHK:\nIt's that you are going at the request of the President to look into you\nknow we don't want to preclude frankly my going back afterwards to\nnegotiate some details but to look into the long term evolution evolution\nof Sino-American relations or something like that.\nMM:\nGood enough.\nHK:\nAnd if you did that, then I would raise that this afternoon and get their\nreaction. Then they could maintain the position that they only invite\nbipartisan groups.\nMM:\nYes.\nHK:\nBut, of course, we can send anyone we want.\nMM:\nThat's right, that's right. That sounds splendid, Henry.\nHK:\nNow that, however, involves--and I wanted to make--be scrupulous\nabout this is that would mean that the announcement of your trip would\nbe made during the campaign. If you want to leave that day.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nMM:\nYeah.\nHK:\nIt doesn't give us any pain but I just wanted to make absolutely sure.\nMM:\nNow, I'm just trying to think of the political implications during the\ncourse of the campaign.\nHK:\nIf you want to leave on election day.\nMM:\nThe day after or the next day.\nHK:\nWell, you know, then it's got to be announced at least a week before.\nMM:\nWell that poses a question which is only political.\nHK:\nThat's right. Now our offer is good in any event. We're not doing it\nin order to be able to make----\nMM:\nNo, no I understand because you don't need that.\nHK:\nThat's right.\nMM:\nBut I was just thinking of the effect personally and politically on me\nHK:\nYou must, this is why I raised it with you. I raised it with you, you\ndidn't raise it with me.\nMM:\nWell, I know but\nHK:\nWe could leave it at this, Senator. We don't have to fix the date now.\nMM:\nXXX No.\nHK:\nI could raise the idea with the Chinese.\nMM:\nGood enough.\nHK:\nI don't want you to make a decision while you're on\nMM:\nPersonally, I have no qualms, Henry. I'm just thinking of what might\nhappen incidental to it.\nHK:\nExactly.\nMM:\nFrom my point of view.\nHK:\nOf course and you know, our interest is to preserve you as a national\nasset.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 4.\nMM:\nYeah.\nHK:\nAnd, therefore, may I suggest this; why don't I mention the idea to\n5+\nthe Chinese\nMM:\nI wish you would.\nHK:\nAnd leave open the precise date and tell them the exact truth. I've\nalways found that the truth is the best that if you go as our repre-\nsentative we might want to slip it by a week.\nMM:\nYes.\nHK:\nThey don't have to worry about that aspect of it and that you will\nlet me know at the end, say in another week.\nMM:\nWhen you return.\nHK:\nWhen I return we'll schedule you. You know, what you want.\nMM:\nSure, fine.\nHK:\nAnd they could in the meantime get the idea settled in principle.\nMM:\nThat's fine. They might have a definite answer then.\nHK:\nThat's right. At any rate it will save us one week in their machinery.\nMM:\nThat's right. So what you're saying in effect then is that it might be\na week after the election.\nHK:\nWhat I'm saying is if this is worth doing we certainly will not take\nthe position that we are interested only if we can make an announce0\nment before the election.\nMM:\nOf course.\nHK:\nThat would be a preposterous position for us take.\nMM:\nYes. It's not needed.\nHK:\nIt's not needed and we wouldn't play that sort of game anyway.\nMM:\nNo, no it isn't you and me or you and me and the President. It's the\nincidental factor that I'm trying to\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 4\nHK:\nThis, Senator would give you ten days to assess the situation.\nMM:\nFine.\nHK:\nAnd then say a week from Monday you will tell me I still want to go\nthe dater after election we'll notify them of that.\nMM:\nOK\nHK:\nIf you say no, I'd rather go 10 days later, we'll notify them that way.\nMM:\nGood enough.\nHK:\nAnd in the meantime if you agree, I will raise with them the question\nof principle this afternoon that they are not inviting you but we are\nsort of sending you.\nMM:\nSending me. That would be fine Henry. It sounds awfully good. I\nfeel much better today than I did yesterday.\nHK:\nGood.\nMM:\nThanks to you.\nHK:\nNot at all, I'm a great admirer.\nMM:\nWell, you're very kind. But it works both ways, Henry, and I think you're\ndoing a great job down there. I'm not blowing smoke up your sleeve or\nanything.\nHK:\nNo, no, you've always been very fair and very decent in all our dealings.\nMM:\nWell, that's good, Henry and you go ahead and do what you can try and\nclamp it down and I'll be in touch with you when you come back.\nHK:\nXXXXX Terrific.\nMM:\nYou want me to call you. What would be better.\nHK:\nEither way.\nMM:\nYou'll have so much on your mind. OK, Henry.\nHK:\nYou call me then because I might be so piled up--I'll always take a call\nfrom you while I might just get so piled up here. Call me a week from\nMonday.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 5\nMM:\nFine, Henry.\nHK:\nTerriffic.\nMM:\nFine, Henry, bye, and thanks.\nHK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelcon\nWiley Buchanan/Kissinger\n9/8/72 - 3:15 p.m.\nB:\nThank you very much for calling me Henry. I realize\nhow busy you are. I wanted to discuss with you this\nwhole business about the Hoffa thing which I had only\nread in the paper and bring you up to date. Back in the\nlast go-around in 1968 I had been working since the\nEisenhower days we had a fellow in the Labor Department\nwhich was very dependable and he got us in touch with\nHoffa's people and I finally got in touch with him which\nwas the basis of a role. Since that time we have been\nworking and trying to get his parole lifted so that he\ncould come out directly for the President because part\nof the deal when he was put up there was that he couldn't\ndo any political activities. Obviously he made a deal\nto protect himself and I know he has been playing golf\nout at Burning\nwith Kleindinst and the rest\nof them. But we've also got a deal here now where\nI think -\nK:\nYou really ought to talk to Clark McGregor if it is a\npolitical thing.\nB:\nWell I was just going to give you this background about the\nwhether or not you - I thought it might be of interest to you\nto know this aspect that we had been working on about this\npart about whether he would and make this trip to Vietnam.\nThis is the reason I called you about it.\nK:\nWe have no interest in his taking this trip to Vietnam.\nB:\nThat won't be coming off?\nK:\nNo.\nB:\nWell, that answers my question. I just felt there might be\nsomething that you should know if something like that was\nin the offering.\nK:\nYeah, but we cannot have him take a trip. We cannot encourage\nprivate negotiation.\nB:\nYes I understand that but I just thought since I had been working\non this thing a long time it was something I should at least let\nyou know -\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelcon\nWiley Buchanan/Kissinger\n9/8/72 - 3:15 p.m.\n2\nK:\nWhy don't call Chuck Colson who handles the Teamsters.\nB:\nOh yes I will. I just didn't want later on for you to find out\nthat we had these other type of negotiations if something is\nin the air on it.\nK:\nGood, I appreciate that very much Wiley. It was very thoughtful\nof you.\nB:\nThank you so much.\nK:\nBye\nB:\nBye Bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nHarold Gibbons/Kissinger\n9/8/72 - 3:46 p.m.\nK:\nHello.\nG:\nHenry.\nK:\nHarold.\nG:\nListen I am in New York you know I haven't been seeing anybody\nbecause I have been under the weather the last couple of days.\nK:\nThis thing is getting worse.\nG:\nI just got a note from downstaris from a Joe Blocker. He wants\nan interview with me for the Cronkite show. Re James Hoffa/Kissinger\nJuly 12th meeting.\nK:\nI never met James Hoffa.\nG:\nThat's right, there never was such a meeting. I just wanted to\ncall and alert you to that. I am not going to have any discussions.\nSecondly, if there is any testimony as to what was said and what\nyour commitment was - which I recall was absolutely zero - thre\nwas no commitment. I would be very happy to supply to the extent\nthat I can.\nK:\nAren't you a good friend. I am not going to get you involved, but if\nthings get out of hand, you can - if you could point that out that would\nbe helpful.\nG:\nAlright if things get any worse I'll do an interview for you.\nK:\nTerrific.\nG:\nRight Henry.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelcon\nHenry Hubbard/Kissinger\n9/8/72 - 3:50 p.m.\nK:\nHello.\nH:\nHi Henry.\nK:\nIs Joe Blocker still with you?\nH:\nNo, no CBS.\nK:\nOh well then that is unnecessary because Joe Blocker just\ncalled Harold Gibbons to tell him about the July 12th meeting\nbetween me and Hoffa. There was no July 12th meeting.\nI just wanted to make sure you didn't get that kinxx confused.\nH:\nNo I am not doing that story now. The only question I have in\nmy mind when Taub called with that threat.\nK:\nJust don't go into all that detail. I just gave that to you for\nbackground.\nH:\nWell it is pretty obvious that he played a pretty heavy handed\ngame. Ziegler made that apparent this morning.\nK:\nYeah.\nBut tone that down a bit will you?\nH:\nOH.\nK:\nI mean don't use the word threat.\nH:\nAlright I won't.\nK:\nHe made that comment to my secretary. After he had made\nthat threat I told my secretary that the next time he called\nto have Haig tell him that this was it.\nH:\nOkay.\nK:\nHaig just told him that he wouldn't deal with him.\nH:\nAlright very good. That is interesting about Blocker. One of\nthe reasons he is not with the magazine anymore. Too creative.\nK:\nSomehow after I put in the call I seemed to remember that he\nwasn't with you anymore.\nH:\nOkay very good. Bye\nK:\nBye\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelcon\nAmbassador Jha/Kissinger\n9/8/72 - 3:55 p.m.\nK:\nHello\nJ:\nHello\nK:\nHow are you?\nJ:\nI am fine.\nK:\nI told you I was going to call you about this\nbusiness.\nWell it is difficult to do something about one installment of a payment\nbecause of the need to maintain some sort of solidarity with the\nother countries. But what we can do, just for your information,\nis first of all to place no obstacles in the meeting of the consortium\nat the end of the month. And secondly to take a somewhat forthcoming\nposition at that meeting. And I think you can on a very private basis\ninform your government that will be our attitude. We are talking\nabout the $30 million\nscheduling, whatever it is $0\n$30 or $40 million.\nJ:\nOkay that is fine.\nK:\nAnd secondly we will send Maury Williams around the middle\nof October to India, Bangladesh and Pakistan to look at the aid\nsituation.\nJ:\nI have one comment on that came from Haksar. He said that if\nMaury Williams comes to India it will be the inevitable fate\nof press speculation about the worked-out outcome. So if\nsome preliminary ground is covered so that we know that the\nvisit you know can be constructive, then it is helpful. Otherwise\nmight just create\nmore inclusive and you know unproductive\nthen we may get an unnecssary setback. Now\nand if you agree, what X we might do is while you are away Maury\nand I get the\nto look at the kind of things they will be\ntalking about we can make the visit a constructive one. How do\nyou think x about it?\nK:\nRight, well you know you x would have to do it with the understanding\nthat we haven't made any decisions yet on any of the items you and\nI discussed Why don't you wait until I come back X and can\ntalk to Maury. Do it the week I am back.\nJ:\nAlright, well at the moment\nMaury's visit.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelcon\nAmbassador Jha/Kissinger\n9/8/72 - 3:55 p.m.\nK:\nNow thirdly, we are prepared to create a somewhat easier\natmosphere in our bilateral relations. But you know along\nthe lines you indicated.\nJ:\nGood.\nK:\nIt XX would be helpful if on your side, because you can have\nsome influence on it, there would be of a press campaign.\nI recognize you can't do too much. To the extent that is\nsomewhat visible that our relations are improving, without\ngoing overboard.\nJ:\nGood, thank you.\nK:\nAnd I will see you the week I come back.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelcon\nSecretary Shultz/Kissinger\n9/8/72 - 4:15 p.m.\nK:\nHello\nS:\nHello\nK:\nGeorge\nS:\nHi Henry.\nK:\nI wonder\nof the office.\nS:\nWell I have perhaps a trivial question for you but anyway\nI would like to get a little guidance. It is being proposed\nto me.\nK:\nI will not take the position of head of the IMF so don't.\nS:\nIt is being proposed to me that we organize a trip for\nCongressmen and Senators both authorizing and appropriating\nCommittees W that would visit mostly in Asia and Africa,\nafter the election and before the next session.\nK:\nVisitmat?\nS:\nVisit projects and headquarters being sponsored by the Asian\ndevelopment bank who proposes in an African development bank\nthat is -\nK:\nWho is proposing it?\nS:\nThis is being proposed by Treasury people and largely in our\ngroups that works with these banks and also works with the\nCongress on the appropriations for the banks. The notion\nobviously is to visit and see projects as well as the institutions\nto abandon different projects and to indicateaid the Congressmen\non foreign affairs, particularly the xxid multilateral institutions -\ntheir strengths and weaknesses. Now I know the President's view\nseems to have shifted from the Peterson report emphasis on\nmultilateral. to more bilateral.\nK:\nThat's right.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelcon\nSecretary Shultz/Kissinger\n9/8/72 - 4:15 pm\nS:\nBut nevertheless we have these institutions out there and\nwe are working with them.\nK:\nI wouldn't oppose it.\nS:\nYou would be inclined to go ahead with it?\nK:\nRight I wouldn't put an enormous priority on it but I would\ngo ahead with it.\nS:\nAlright, the process of working with NSC on it we of course\nwill keep you informed but you think we can just go ahead with\nit without bothering further.\nK:\nI think so - I would check with the Congressional people.\nS:\nRight.\nHave a good trip and I wish* you the best of success. I hope\nyour deal that you we re telling me about works out.\nK:\nThank you. Bye\nS:\nBye\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nBob Toth/Mr. Kissinger\nSeptember 16, 1972 12:55 p.m.\nBT:\nHi, did you get the pictures?\nHK:\nHello Bob, yes. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate this\nI am writing a Bill Donovan. His þlowups are really touching.\nBT:\nWell that's good. I was just telling your secretary the difficult\ntime I had dropping them off (laughing). Nobody wanted to accept\nthem!.\nHK:\nWell, I am really grateful.\nBT:\nOkay, well you write to him so--\nHK:\nI will write to him, but tell him in the meantime because by the\ntime this gets typed and gets through my pedantic machinery-\nBT:\n(laughing) all right. Dr. Kissinger, can you give me any guidance\nbeyond what you said at the press conference?\nHK:\nOn what area?\nBT:\nI am particularly interested in whether or not you had come back\nwith any greater feeling of optimism than you did when you left\nas far as prospects or a settlement this year is concerned.\nHK:\nIn Vietnam?\nBT!\nYeh.\nHK:\nI just don't want to comment about it. I really can't. I just\ndon't want to get into a position of breaking my word.\nBT:\nHm huh. But can I take it from that though that there is no reason\nfor dimunition of your feelings.\nHK:\nWell, what do you feel my feelings were?\nBT:\nAh, it seems to me that when we spoke the last time you thought\nthere was a possibility of a settlement before the election or\na probability of a settlment before the end of the year.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nPage 2\nHK:\nNo, not before the end of the year, but within a reasonable time\nafter the election.\nBT:\nYou said a resonable time would that be by the end of the year?\nHK:\nNot necessarily. I just hate to give deadlines.\nBT:\nHm huh, hm huh.\nBut there is no reason to change that your\nevaluation of--\nHK:\nLook, I mean strictly off-the-record, it obvious we must\nbe talking about something.\nBT:\nAbsolutely.\nHK:\nYou know. Amateurs say it is an election stunt and so forth;\nwhat interest do they have to participate in an election stunt?\nBT:\nWell, I know, this is the problem I have been having, in writing\nthis stuff, that I am way out of step with everybody else. Because\nI do have a feeling--\nHK:\nI am not saying it's going to get settled. It's a hell of a problem.\nBT:\nHm huh. But there is no reason for them to cooperate in his\nreelection.\nHK:\nThat's right and there is no point in our sitting there--you know\nwe are not playing pinochle.\nBT:\nDo you feel they finished their reassessment when he came back\nand talked to you now?\nHK:\nYeh, I think that is a reasonable thing to assume.\nBT:\nAnd does one have to assume that they have changed can one assume--\nHK:\nThat is the part I don't want to comment on.\nBT:\nAll right. But one doesn't take as face value their private position\nand their public position being the same thing- I mean, that is\nthe Viet Cong statement and the statement of September 2--does\nthat represent their private position as well?\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nPage 3\nHK:\nI don't want to comment on that . Look I'll tell you one thing\nBob. We've all agreed here that you ask the most perceptive\nquestions of anybody.\nBT:\n(laughing) Well thank you very much. Appreciate it.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelCon:1:28-9/16/72\nMr. Kissinger/\nMinister Idan\nK:\nThank you for calling. You probably know what I am calling you about.\nI:\nI have a good impression(?) that you don't want to tell me what you\ndid in Paris.\nK:\nThat is right. I wanted to say two things. One, first in Moscow\nwe acted in a sense that I know you will highly approve of and I will\ntell the Ambassador when he gets back.\nI:\nYou acted - we will not approve?\nK:\nThat you will highly approve of.\nI:\nHighly.\nK:\nYes.\nI:\nI see.\nK:\nBut if you do not stop these actions - I must tell you you are running\nan enormous risk in your relations with the President. You launched\nan action the day before I go to Moscow and you launch an action the\nday after I come back at a time when we are taking an all-out diplomatic\nposition in your defense and are preventing - going into actions. We\ncannot take this. Now there is no President who has done more for\nyou and I can tell you I have just come from the President and he asked\nme to call you.\nI:\nYes. Well, I will immediately transmit what you said.\nK:\nNow that is a private communication that should not be in your\nnewspaper.\nI:\nOf course. This (?) I know.\nK:\nBut I don't know what the background for this particular action is.\nI:\nThe background is that in the last few days since the tragedy in Munich,\nthere has been four in persons( (?) and actions by the terrorists across\nthe Lebanonese border and we lost within five days three lives, and\ntwo wounded through terrorists actions. And you know W exactly where\nthey come from.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n- 2 -\nK:\nBut if you prepared us a little bit for it. I mean we have certainly\nbeen very candid with you about our most secret things. You know\nthe President feels you totally misled him last week. I know there\nwas a traumatic( (?) sentence that if I had understood it properly I\nshould have known, but I took it at face value and reported it like\nthat. It is a very dangerous game.\nI:\nI don't think that anybody wanted to mislead. This I must say.\nK:\nNo, if you had said we will do something but it will not upset the\nbalance( You know\nI:\nThat's right. That's what\nK:\nWe would have understood it, we wouldn't have welcomed it, but we\nwould have understood it.\nI:\nIf I remember correctly,\nK:\nHe said you would do nothing to\nI:\nUpset the tranquility or somelthing like that.\nK:\nThat is right, but that passed me by that subtlety.\nI:\nBecause you know after things like that it is just impossible not to react\nat all and I can tell you from what I have heard and I am sure you will\napprove of that part of the story that what you are doing now is also\nlimited actions and we have been told\nK:\nWe are not children and we know what your needs are but we also have\na very tough situation with the Soviets and you know we are delaying\nactions on a lot of things but the price for that is that we cannot have\nthem totally publicly humiliated.\nI:\nYes.\nK:\nWhen I come - the Ambassador, when will he be back.\nI:\nSurely I think he will be back on Tuesday night.\nK:\nWell I will show you some things that happened in Moscow that will\nexplain to you why this is a very very unfortum te time.\nI:\nYes. Well, I will transmit this immediately Dr. Kissinger.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n- 3 -\nK:\nBut in Moscow itself, I think you will approve of what was done.\nI:\nYes. I can assure you - I think that - now I am not using any\nTALMUDIL\ntraumatic(3) sentences, but in accordance what I have read in our\ncables this will all be over in a few hours.\nK:\nYes, but\n(spelling ? ? ?)\nI:\nAnd it is both locally and time wise limited to the Potafland ? area.\nK:\nBut the trouble is that it will force us now to take another public\nposition.\nthat the Lebanonese\nI:\nThat is possible because I understand/XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX\nare going again to the Security Council.\nK:\nYes, and it will force us into a public positionx with the Soviets again.\nI:\nI understand, but I really understand, but I think that you do understand\nthat it is impossible for Israel not to react to such provocations(?)\nK:\nYes, but maybe if we could at least have a rough idea that something is\nhappening. OK, well we will discuss that when the Ambassador comes\nback.\nI:\nOK.\nK:\nI am assuming this will not go into too x many people in your government.\nI:\nIt won't go anywhere. There is no difference in that respect if Rabin\nor I handle it.\nK:\nGood, well that is what I wanted to make\nI:\nRest assure that we are in this respect interchangeable.\nK:\nGood. Wonderful.\nI:\nNot in other things, but in this respect we are certainly interchangeable.\nK:\nWell, we have a very high regard for you.\nI:\nYou may trust me on that.\nK:\nI trust you in everything.\nThank you very much.\nI:\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n- -4- -\nK:\nGoodbye.\nI:\nI hope you are well and you had a successful trip.\nK:\nIt was a useful trip.\nI:\nOK, and thank you and I will see you soon.\nK:\nSee you soon.\nI:\nGoodbye, bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nNIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS PROJECT\nDOCUMENT CONTROL RECORD\nITEM REMOVED FROM THIS FILE FOLDER\nSANITIZED\nA RESTRICTED DOCUMENT OR CASE FILE HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM\nTHIS FILE FOLDER. FOR A DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM REMOVED\nAND THE REASON FOR ITS REMOVAL, CONSULT DOCUMENT ENTRY\nNUMBER /A ON EITHER THE DOCUMENT WITHDRAWAL RECORD\n(GSA FORM 7292 OR NA FORM 1421) OR NARA WITHDRAWAL SHEET\n(GSA FORM 7122) LOCATED IN THE FRONT OF THIS FILE FOLDER.\nA sanitized copy substituted for an original item which\nContains information restricted under the Privacy Act.\nNATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION\nNLN FORM 101 (revised 6-85)\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nNicholas von Hoffman/Dr. Kissinger\n9/18/72 - 10:55 a. m.\nK:\nHello.\nvH:\nHi.\nK:\nHow are you?\nvH:\nPretty good, how are you?\nK:\nYou're determined to ruin me aren't you?\nvH:\nOh, I--Henry, my God, do you realize how great I'd be if I could ruin\nyou.\nK:\nWe're talking on two tapped phones.\nvH:\nYou're phone isn't tapped is it?\nK:\nWhy not.\nvH:\nMine can't be.\nK:\nWhy?\nvH:\nBecause I cannot believe that there's any agency or power that would\nbe interested in the garbage that flows on my line.\nK:\nI like your comment on spectrum today. The quadri\nvH:\nYou don't get up that early do you?\nK:\nYeah, I have to be in my office at quarter to eight.\nvH:\nHenry, that's terrible.\nK:\nI know it\nvH:\nThey're not after you. At least my forces are not after you.\nK:\nMy forces are after me. One of my colleagues said to me the other\nday I'm right behind you. It was one of the most frightening things\nI've ever heard. All of this is off the record.\nvH:\nWell, it's off my record. I don't know about these other records.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n-\n.\n- 2 -\nK:\nWhen are we going to be able to get together?\nvH:\nWell, that's what I was calling about.\nK:\nWhat's better for you, lunch or dinner?\nvhl:\nDinner is always better for me. By then I've woken up.\nK:\nHow about--I'm not 100% sure. - but how about tentatively Thursday?\nvH:\nSplendid.\nK:\nGood. Shall we call each other Thursday?\nvH:\nOK, fine, very good. I'll call you Thursday morning.\nK:\nGreat.\nvH:\nGood. Talk to you then. Do you have my number.\nK:\nI don't know.\nvH:\nSANITIZED\nK:\nIf I don't call you that means I lost it. Will you call me back?\nvH:\nSure.\nK:\nGood.\nvH:\nOkey-doak.\nK:\nTerrific.\nLook forward to it.\nvH:\nBye.\nK:\nBye,\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nDirector Helms/Mr. Kissinger\n11:15 a.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nI just found out that you had asked me to come to some ceremony\nover there.\nH:\nThat's right. This is our 25th anniversary. I invited you some time\nago.\nK:\nWell, you probably did. Did you do it personally?\nH:\nYes, I wrote you a letter.\nK:\nWell, you don't expect that that would reach me quickly, do you?\nIn my well-organized way.\nH:\nI thought you had accepted several weeks ago.\nK:\nRight. Well, at any rate, I understand they cancelled it but if I\ncan keep my participation brief, I'd be glad to come over.\nH:\nWell, I wish you could. It can be just as brief as you like.\nThe minute you arrive if you arrive here at 12 o'clock, which I\nhope you could we'll go right into the auditorium; I'll introduce you\nimmediately. You speak as long or as short as you like and then we\nwill leave.\nK:\nOkay, I'll come. How long will it take me to get over there ?\nH:\nAbout it will take you no more than 15 minutes. Why don't you\nbring Tom Latimer with you so he can show exactly where to come.\nK:\nOkay, I'll bring Tom with me. What do you want me to say?\nH:\nWhat we're going to have is in the auditorium today in large part\npeople who have been around here for about 20-25 years and then some\nof the young people in a kind of a reasonable mix of the Agency. And\nwhat I had in mind actually was the hope that you would simply speak\nabout the work they've done in support of you and the President and\nso forth, nothing more complicated than that.\nK:\nRight, right. 5 or 10 minutes is enough, isn't it?\nH:\nIf you could make it 10 minutes, that would be just great.\nK:\nOkay, fine.\nH:\nAnd I appreciate it very much, Henry.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nDirector Helms/Mr. Kissinger\n11:15 a.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nNot at all, I appreciate what you've been doing for us.\nH:\nSo we'll welcome you at -- If you leave sharply at 15 minutes till 12:00,\nyou'll hit it just right.\nK:\nOkay, will do.\nH:\nThank you.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSecretary Peterson/Dr. Kissinger\n9/18/72 - 11:25 am\nP:\nHello.\nK:\nPete.\nP:\nYes sir.\nK:\nHow are you?\nP:\nFine.\nK:\nI'm excited by the idea of speaking to Cabinet member.\nP:\nI wish you'd personalize it more than than, Henry. I like to know the\ndepth of your feeling for me.\nK:\nWell, then this Cabinet member. Two things: one on this Jewish issue\nP:\nYeah.\nK:\nMy judgment is that it's a mistake to engage in a negotiation on it now\nbecause first of all I don't you mentally but I just don't believe that\nPercy is going to be helpful in a way that's really going to help. He's\ngoing to make conditions that we can't meet.\nP:\nYeah. It's Ribicoff and Javits that I'm concerned about.\nK:\nMy instinct is - first of all let me talk to Rabin on Wednesday and we'll\nknow what the situation is and secondly I think that to get turned down\nby them is worse than never to have raised it.\nP:\nThe Soviets do you mean?\nK:\nNo, no by Javits and the other guy. Above all since I think our best\nstrategy is not to come have it come up in this session.\nP:\nYes, except they say they're going to do it. Now the purpose of my\nmeeting could be a listening meeting, you know and not a negotiating\none.\nK:\nIs it possible for you to put it off until say Friday because I'll see\nRabin on Wednesday. He isn't coming back until then.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n- 2 -\nP:\nI suppose I could, yes.\nK:\nAnd then I could give you a feel for what his attitude is.\nP:\nAll right. OK.\nK:\nSecondly, you were going to send me over some notes.\nP:\nI'm in the final paragraph. It'll be over at ten of twelve.\nK:\nOK. That's going to be quite a feat if you're in the final paragraph.\nP:\nOh, I'm not as voluable as you think, Henry. It's a short paragraph.\nK:\nI don't think you're voluable. You're problem on your voluability isn't\nwith me.\nP:\nOK.\nK:\nIt's the ex-Secretary of the Treasury who has implanted that thought.\nP:\nI see.\nK:\nThat I think will be my problem from now on and not yours.\nP:\nIt's time he had a worthy adversary is what I say. He brings out the\nbest in both of you.\nK:\nPete I don'\nP:\nOr should I say the worst in both of you.\nK:\nPete, I don't have your integrity. I'm not crazy enough to fight him.\nP:\nYou know, the thought of the battle bringing out the worst in Connally\nand Kissinger is enough to terrify me. Oh, my God, it would shatter\nthe faith in the democratic process in the American community if I\nthat were to happen.\nK:\nI wouldn't be in the beas* league with him. On the best maybe, but on the\nworst I couldn't even begin to touch it. I enjoyed Saturday.\nP:\nIt was great to have you. OK, it will be right over.\nK:\nOK, thank you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSenator Humphrey/Dr. Kissinger\n9/18/72 - 11:31 m.\nK:\nHello.\nH:\nHenry?\nK:\nHow are you.\nH:\nWelcome home.\nK:\nThank you.\nH:\nI take it you've been travelling about.\nK:\nYes, I've been\nH:\nNice to hear your voice.\nK:\nNice to talk to you. I'm calling you about the letter you wrote the\nPresident a week or so ago about the Jewish problem in the Soviet\nUnion.\nH:\nYes.\nK:\nAnd I just wanted to tell you personally I don't want to have it made\npublic that I did raise it in a number of meetings.\nH:\nFine Henry.\nK:\nThe problem is that I think we've got to lower the visibility of the debate\nbecause they can't yield to pressures from a foreign country. I'm not\nsaying they're going to yield anyway. I'm not asking you to lower this.\nH:\nListen, I understand that.\nK:\nAs a government we have to do it in as quiet a way as we can. We could\nscore a lot of points in the campaign by saying what I said and to whom\nI said it.\nH:\nYes.\nK:\nBut we're not going to say anything publicly. I wanted you to know though\nthat something has been done.\nH:\nThat's very good of you.\nK:\nAnd I'm not asking you to repeat that or anything like that.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n- 2 -\nH:\nNo.\nK:\nAnd secondly, we really feel that it would be very dangerous to jeopardize\nthe trade arrangements on this particular issue now.\nH:\nI couldn't agree more and I've said very candidly to some of our people\nthat we must not do that. They wanted me to join on a resolution in\nthe Congress and I think we've shot that resolution down.\nK:\nBecause I think in the long term they will have the tendency of humanizing\nthe Soviet system and they'll give us an entre apart from a crisis atmos-\nphere gives us a better chance.\nH:\nYes.\nK:\nTo press for these objectives which we really in this case totally share\nwith you.\nH:\nYes sir. I understand that. You have no problem on the trade matters\nwith myself. And I've already talked to two or three other Senators.\nIn fact, I even had a talk with Jack Javits about it.\nK:\nRight.\nH:\nLet me ask you something while I got you on the line here. Javits came\nto me the other day and saixk suggested that he and I might quietly go\nover to see Dobrynin.\nK:\nI think that wouldn't be a bad idea.\nH:\nBut not on the basis of any threats or anything like that or on trade because\nwe both happen tothink that the trade matter xxx ought to be kept separate\nentirely.\nK:\nI think that would be a good idea. You're both well known liberals.\nH:\nYes.\nK:\nAnd you both have been in favor of improving ties with the Soviet Union.\nH:\nRight.\nK:\nAnd if you could put it in personal terms\nyou position.\nH:\nYes.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n- 3 -\nK:\nI think it would be a good contribution.\nH:\nVery good. I didn't want to do it if I though it was going to be--\nK:\nThat I think would be a good contribution.\nH:\nOn the matter of your visit, ---\nK:\nYou can say, I said in a press conference that I raised it.\nH:\nFine, I just thought maybe it might even be a little bit helpful.\nK:\nI just didn't say with whom I raised it.\nH:\nNo, I understand that. I just wanted to---I think it's better for the\nAdministration too if we can that look our letter was received, it\nwas considered and that Mr. Kissinger did raise this matter.\nK:\nThat's right.\nH:\nAnd we're following through on some other ideas.\nK:\nYou can say that. I'm not asking you to say it, it would be somewhat\nhelpful but the main reason I'm calling you is just to let you know that\nyour concerns were expressed and so that you know what's going on.\nH:\nYes. Allright, my friend, we will handle which I don't think will be\noffensive to you folks at all.\nK:\nAnd I hope to see you soon after this campaign is over.\nH:\nGod, yes I'll be glad when this whole ordeal is over.\nK:\nGod, if we all live through it.\nH:\nIt's oh, my God, you can imagine what I'm feeling.\nK:\nI know what you're going through and I admire you for the way you\nconducted yourself.\nH:\nWell, one of these days I XXXXX may just give you a buzz.\nK:\nLook, as far as I'm concerned it's always a pleasure to see you. I'll\nsee you during the campaign. But I just don't want to put you into a\ndifficult position.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n- 4 -\nH:\nI understand that, Henry. I really do and we'll watch our p's and q's\nhere and get back together with you when it's proper.\nK:\nGood, wonderful.\nH:\nAnd thank you much. It was kind and thoughtful of you.\nK:\nNice to talk to you. Well, I've always been an admirer, as you know\nH:\nI know that and we appreciate the chance to work with you.\nK:\nGood,\nH:\nBye-bye.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nNorman Mailer/Mr. Kissinger\n12:35 p.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nNorman, how are you?\nM:\nListen, one of us is telepathic; I was just going over the notes.\nK:\nWhat?\nM:\nOne of us is telepathic, I was just going over the interview. I was\njust working on it. How are you?\nK:\nI'm fine.\nM:\nTrip tiring?\nK:\nYeah, but I'm somehow reaching a stage where the time changes don't\nhit me as hard anymore.\nM:\nOh, that's the secret I guess of being part of the jet set.\nK:\nWell, there's nothing you can't achieve if you're compulsive enough.\nM:\nWell, we all try to be the instrument of our own will, don't we?\nK:\nIn a way. Did your secretary give you my comments?\nM:\nYes, yes. Now, there's a problem on that line I take it and that was\nthe line I was working on.\nK:\nOn page 203.\nM:\nYeah, yeah. I have the thing right in front of me. Henry, give me\n10 seconds; I've got the page on my desk.\nK:\nRight, sure.\nM:\nIt seems to disappear -- I always do those things. Well, I was looking\nover it. The line you say is impossible for you, is that right?\nK:\nWhere you have me say, \"Let us say that he is not primarily a moral\nleader. 11\nM:\nAll right. Now I was going over it. And how would it read it if we put\nit this way? \"You don't argue, 11 said Kissinger \"because he is not\nprimarily a moral leader but I do not wish to agree. I might go so\nfar as to say he is a political genius. 11\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 2 -\nNorman Mailer/Mr. Kissinger\n12:35 p.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nYeah, that's okay.\nM:\nAll right, good. I was going to hand him these paintings by the way\nbecause I felt, you know, I entered the\ntoday or a large bulk\nof it to the\nK:\nThen there's another quote just before that where you have me say,\n\"In the absolute chance it could be true that in the Presidency one needs\nto have a man \"\nM:\nYeah, yeah.\nK:\nBut that is a sentence I don't object to, except it injects the position\nto your view point.\nM:\nRight. Well, I think I can turn that around by having you again put it\ninto my mough. Where as I say, \"Nixon gives too little. 11 And you\ncould say, \"It is in your point of view that in the Presidency\nhave\na man \"\nK:\nYeah, that would be all right.\nM:\nAll right. \"In the Presidency we\nhave a man and he's worth\nbeing liked. 11\nK:\nAnd then you would say, \"Yes, Nixon \"\nM:\n\"Yes, Nixon offers nothing authentic of himself. \"\nK:\nAnd then how would the next thing read? \"I can't agree with that - \"\nM:\n\"Although he's\nof himself.\" And you say -- I pick up with\nKissinger -- \"You've argued he's not primarily a moral leader\n\"\nK:\nI cannot agree --\nM:\n\"I do not wish to agree; I might go so far as to say he has political\ngenius.\n11\nK:\nYes.\nM:\nAnd then I'll take out --\nK:\nNo, but why don't you say, \"I cannot agree with this but you will probably\nagree that he is a political genius,\" or something like that.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 3 -\nNorman Mailer/Mr. Kissinger\n12:35 p.m., September 18, 1972\nM:\nAll right, sure.\nK:\nCould you say it that way ?\nM:\nLet's see, \"Do you know he's not primarily a moral leader but I would\nnot wish to agree How do you want to put it?\nK:\nAnd then I could say, \"But you probably will agree with me when I say\nthat he's a political genius. 11\nM:\nAll right. How's this ? \"You know he is not primarily a moral leader.\nI do not wish to agree but you will probably agree with me that he is a\npolitical genius.\"\nK:\nYou don't even have to say genius. That he is politically extraordinarily\nable or something like that.\nM:\nWell, I want point of views. Actually, I use it; happily heroic, and\nhappily --\nK:\nWell, that's all right. I don't insist on that.\nM:\nBut I do, I use it all through the book after that. What I do think of the\ngenius. You'll see when you read it. I'm not absolutely enraptured\nwith this political genius.\nK:\nThe other point I had -- Oh, the hell with it. You know, it's on\nChou En-lai -- I hate to say something that sounds very invidious of the\nRussians.\nM:\nWell, You know, I thought about that. Henry, look, you know the\nRussians. I don't have to tell you -- you know 3 times as much about\nthem as I do but I'm willing to bet that they'll go through so many hoops\nover that line. There's so much inner work that they need it that in\neffect they' all wonder what you're up to in making that announcement\nThey'll have/the pleasure of saying, \"This time we do not ask for our\ncomma'' do you see what I mean?\nK:\nYeah.\nM:\nI think it will just enter the history of the given -- I can't see it\naffecting the --\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 4 -\nNorman Mailer/Mr. Kissinger\n12:35 p.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nYeah. In what is this going to appear?\nM:\nThis is going to be in a book which will be coming out in about two\nweeks. And if you would like, I'll send it to Life and see if they want\nto print this section by itself. That's up to you.\nK:\nNo, that's up to you.\nM:\nWell, I think I'll show it to them. You know, I don't know -- they may\nnot want to print it because it's not that deep an article and they\nwould have to get it out in the next two weeks.\nK:\nYeah.\nM:\nIt might be worth a try, you know. Let me just make sure I've got\nthat last part right. I'll read it through to you, all right?\nK:\nRight.\nM:\n\"Is it your point of view then that in the Presidency we\nhave a\nman that is worth being liked, 11 that's your remark.\nK:\nRight.\nM:\nI say, \"Yes, Nixon offers nothing authentic of himself. 11 Next line,\n\"You argue that he is not primarily a moral leader but I do not wish to\nagree but you will probably agree with me that he is a political genius. \"\nK:\nThen you say, \"Absolutely.\"\nM:\nYes.\nK:\nThat would be great.\nM:\nI wouldn't say, \"Absolutely.\" You know, I keep the \"Absolutely\" --\nK:\nOr you say anything you want.\nM:\nBut you were putting in \"political genius\" it's clear as an opinion. I'll\nwork out whatever it is. It's just a matter of the ribbons there and then\nthe staff work for me.\nK:\nCan you go back to page 199 for one minute\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 5 -\nNorman Mailer/Mr. Kissinger\n12:35 p.m., September 18, 1972\nM:\nSure. Henry, there's one thing I do want to go through here though.\nThere are two \"agrees.\" \"He's primarily a moral leader but I do not\nwish to agree but you will probably agree Two 'àgrees' don't sound\ngood. I want to use some other word but I don't want to put a word of\nmy own in because these are your words.\nK:\nWell, I could get worse advice than from you on style.\nM:\nWell, you've helped me on foreign policy. (laughter)\nK:\nOr you can say, \"I do not see it that way, \" or something like that.\nM:\nAll right, I'll do something [in piece] to that exact sentence. You see,\nIt's just a matter of avoiding the double \"agree. 11 It has\na kind of \"agree\" to \"agree\" sound that hurts the sentence.\nK:\nYeah. May I make one suggestion on page 199 which I don't think\naffects anything of yours.\nM:\nAll right.\nK:\nIf you could drop that sentence, \"I found them immensely impressive. \"\nM:\nAll right.\nK:\nIf you simply go, \"In the beginning I made the mistake of assuming --\".\nJust let out that one line. The Russians are almost paranoid about\nbeing compared.\nM:\nUh-huh.\nK:\nYou know you can say, \"But the Chinese --\". If you could leave out\n\"The Chinese are exceptional --¹. If you simply go from talk about\nto in the beginning my worries are over.\nM:\nLet's see. You want to say \"They will talk about --\".\nK:\n\"In the beginning I made the mistake of assuming that they negotiate\nlike the Russians and they don't. 11 You see, if I can get the -- But I\nthought it really, you know, without any rhetoric, I thought it was a\nvery strong and perceptive piece.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 6 -\nNorman Mailer/Mr. Kissinger\n12:35 p.m., September 18, 1972\nM:\nOh, no. You know, I liked it. The one thing I wasn't happy with in it\nis I usually like to characterize much more. You know, usually the\nway one breaks a piece of bread and all that.\nK:\nOf course one is a bad judge of pieces about one's self but I think you\nare conveying more than a lot of people who have attempted to\ncharacterize.\nM:\nWell, I think nobody has ever really tried. God, the pieces I see\nabout you, they are all dreadful, you know.\nK:\nOh, they' re awful.\nM:\nYou know, they're just all just foul. But, no, I'm glad you've -- I really\nalways try to be fair on interviews because I --\nK:\nLook, I've read your writings before and this is why I saw you. Let's\nstay in touch even when you don't write anything.\nM:\nFine, love to.\nK:\nDo you come down sometimes?\nM:\nYes, I'll send you the book because I think you will read over the\nauthor's amusement and horror. You know, it's quite a book in a way\nbecause it was written in a month. And I'll call you when I get to\nWashington.\nK:\nWill you do that?\nM:\nCertainly. We'll stay in touch.\nK:\nGood, I would love to stay in touch with you.\nM:\nAll right, I owe you a lunch you know.\nK:\nWell, fine.\nM:\nAll right, Henry.\nK:\nGood, let's get together soon. Do send me the book.\nM:\nI certainly will.\nK:\nAnd I appreciate the way you've handled this.\nM:\nThank you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSecretary Peterson/Mr. Kissinger\n12:45 p.m., September 18, 1972\nP:\nHenry, I have something that I did not put in this memo intentionally\nthat hopefully you have by now on Dobrynin.\nK:\nNo, what is it?\nP:\nWell, the thing I didn't -- the memo is the list of points I promised\nyou on Saturday.\nK:\nYeah, I got that.\np:\nAll right. The one I did not comment on has to do with the concept\nof an agreement on the postponements. The more I think about that,\nHenry, the more I'd like to review whether you think that is absolutely\nnecessary because if you get what I would like you to get, that they can\nhave four and can get them as long as they make them up by 2001,\nthe presence of that other agreement unless they insist on it as an act\nof faith could put some of us in a very awkward position, you know.\nI don't mean that it's in an agreement but I mean that its mere existence\nin writing. Do you think it's essential to have that?\nK:\nWell, we weren't going to put it in writing.\nP:\nI thought you said there would be a letter.\nK:\nThat's something you have to let me handle, Pete. I cannot negotiate\nthat one.\nP:\nYeah. In other words, you have to have that in writing?\nK:\nI don't know how I am going to have it but I'm not going to tell you\nwhat I'm going to do so you'll be clean.\nP:\nYeah. All right, fine. Because I'm sure we'll be called up to testify.\nI think we will.\nK:\nRight.\nP:\nAll right.\nK:\nIt doesn't make any difference. They have the right to do it anyway.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 2 -\nSecretary Peterson/Mr. Kissinger\n12:45 p.m., September 18, 1972\nP:\nMy point is they have the right to do it and as long as it's not in writing\nso much the better unless you have to do it for your own reasons.\nI'm getting into your business but I don't -- I just expressed an opinion.\nK:\nNo, I understand it, Pete. But at any rate, you don't raise it at all\nwith them.\nP:\nPrecisely.\nK:\nSo you don't ever discuss it and I may tell you at dinner sometime what\nI've done.\nP;\nBut if you do it the way I'm talking about in there, they have the right\nto do whatever they want.\nK:\nI understand.\nP:\nOkay.\nK:\nGood, thank you.\n12:50 p.m., September 18, 1972\n[Continued Conversation]\nK:\nPete.\nP:\nYes, sir.\nK:\nOne other thing. On the gas thing, all I promised Brezhnev is that it\nwould be done within two weeks afterwards. We don't have to announce\nits establishment the same day.\nP:\nFine.\nK:\nIt's better if we -- first, we get another ride. Secondly, it's better if\nwe do it as if it didn't look like a direct package deal.\nP:\nRight. The purpose of my including this, you know, in your note was\nfor you to show good faith and progress on your account.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 3 -\nSecretary Peterson/Mr. Kissinger\n12:50 p.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nRight. Well, I'll show good faith if we do it within two weeks.\nP:\nNo; what I mean, on the Japanese.\nK:\nOh, on the Japanese, that's excellent.\nP:\nYeah.\nK:\nThat is very helpful.\nP:\nSo we'll have then probably three announcements: maritime, lend-lease\ntrade and then gas.\nK:\nExactly.\nP:\nOkay.\nK:\nRight.\nP:\nAll right, bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTelecon\nMr. Kissinger\nAdmiral Moorer\n9/18/72; 3:00 p.m.\n(Secure Phone)\nM: I think we had a very good week or more. We have really been turning\nit on in the area you were concerned about. The Marines have really done\na hell of a job in Quang Tri. They captured about 750 weapons out of 1, 000\nkilled. It is indicative that these people did break and run. We are going\nto watch this. I think the 304 Division might try to come in between Quang\nTri and Hue. So we are watching all of that. I just wanted to touch base\nwith you.\nK: I think that sounds good. I suppose we could use some Marines to fill\nany holes in that area. I saw a UPI story in which Air Force officals said\nwe would turn on bombing after elections, use B-52's, etc.\nM: I saw the one about holding up on Hanoi because of POW's. Was the UPI\ntoday?\nK: Yes. Could you let us have a report on it.\nM: Yes, I will check into it.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAmbassador Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger\n3:30 p.m., September 18, 1972\nD:\nHello, Henry. You called me.\nK:\nYes. Oh, you don't take my calls anymore right away.\nD:\n(laughter) I didn't arrive yet. Nobody expected here to --\nK:\nOkay. I just wanted you to know this thing is coming over.\nD:\nYeah, you will send with a messanger?\nK:\nYeah. It's leaving this minute. I'm just giving you the operative\nparagraph. There is some garbage in there before and we can get\nthat dropped out. If we can get that operative paragraph, which you\nwill see is really pretty close to yours, we could come to a rapid\nconclusion.\nD:\nOkay, so it will be as you mention operative and there was some\nintroduction, so to speak.\nK:\nYeah. But the introductory part, don't worry about it. If you\ndisagree, we can get it out.\nD:\nBut it is two ways as you discussed. You could present now or make\na proposal very close.\nK:\nYeah. If you could get in the words \"practices and procedures,\" it\nwould save us a two-week turn around.\nD:\nYeah, I understand. Okay, thank you very much. I will receive and\nI will today show it to Gromyko and then 1 will be in touch with you\nby telephone, right?\nK:\nExcellent.\nD:\nF rom New York. You have by the way -- I received an invitation here\nfor a celebration the day after tomorrow. I mean, for some kind of\na lunch time dealing with not exactly with a paradise but opposite\npart and you are the hero of this one.\nK:\nOh, oh, yeah. Are you coming?\nD:\nWell, I will be there but what kind of at --\nK:\nI was asked to have some friends of mine invited and 1 thought --\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 2 -\nAmbassador Dobrynin/Mr. Kissinger\n3:30 p.m., September 18, 1972\nD:\nOh, I see. So they mention you. I will check with Gromyko. If\nhe will not occupy me with his personal business, I will try to be here.\nIt will be I guess a nice occasion.\nK:\nIt should be a pleasant occasion.\nD:\nYeah. It's at lunch time.\nK:\nYes.\nD:\nOkay, I will try to do my best to be here. I really enjoy this kind of\nthing usually. Okay, Henry.\nK:\nGood.\nD:\nSo I will receive this message of yours.\nK:\nGood.\nD:\nThank you very much for everything.\nK:\nBye, bye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSenator Fulbright/Mr. Kissinger\n4:18 p.m., September 18, 1972\nF:\nHello, Henry.\nK:\nMr. Chairman, how are you?\nF:\nVery well. How are you?\nK:\nOkay.\nF:\nYou still feeling all right?\nK:\nYeah.\nF:\nYour hours doesn't bother you any, huh?\nK:\nWell, probably one of these days I'll just go at once. And everyone\nwill remember tale-tale signs.\nF:\n(laughter)\nK:\nI wondered whether you were free for lunch tomorrow?\nF:\nTuesday, let me look. Yeah.\nK:\nI don't have anything world-shaking, I just thought we might catch\nup with each other.\nF:\nFine. One o'clock.\nK:\nOne o'clock. You want me to come to your place or you want to\ncome to the Sans Souci?\nF:\nI think tomorrow is all right if you prefer it. It's a little better than\nup here.\nK:\nOkay, let's meet at the Sans Souci.\nF:\nOne o'clock.\nK:\nOne o'clock.\nF:\nOkay.\nK:\nGood.\nF:\nI think it's okay. I've got a committee meeting and I think we should\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 2 -\nSenator Fulbright/Mr. Kissinger\n4:18 p.m., September 18, 1972\nF:\n(cont'd) be well over it by that time.\nK:\nAnd if my colleagues here fire me as a result of it, you take -- - you\nlook after me.\nF:\nWould you rather have it up here ?\nK:\nNo, no; I'm joking. I'm joking. I'm proud to be seen with you.\nF:\n(laughter) I'll be there at One o'clock.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nBill Timmons/Mr. Kissinger\n4:23 p.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nBill, who programmed the President to call Jackson today ?\nT:\nWho did what?\nK:\nYou know that the President called Jackson?\nT:\nYeah, the President called me and told me.\nK:\nI hope you realize that this breaks a direct promise I made to\nBrezhnev.\nT:\nTo do what?\nK:\nThat we were not going to get ourselves officially behind the\nJackson Amendment.\nT:\nWell, we're not out in front here. We've pulled off on it. I talked\nto Haig the other day -\nK:\nDidn't the President tell Jackson he was behind it and he was going\nto do everything he could to pass it through the House?\nT:\nWell, I don't know what he said; I wasn't present.\nK:\nBut you urged him to call him, that's what I want to know.\nT:\nWe put in a proposed request some time ago that after the damn\nthing passed the Senate, that the President might want to call him\nand thank him for it.\nK:\nWell, you know, if you guys for little moves are going to jeopardize\nthings on which everything depends, we've got all of October\nprogrammed with Soviet co-operative efforts with us.\nT:\nWell, we're not doing a thing on the Hill, Henry. We've just pulled\noff completely. Haig --\nK:\nWell, goddammit, why didn't you tell me that he was going to call\nJackson?\nT:\nThis had gone in a long time ago; you were gone!\nK:\nWell --\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 2 -\nBill Timmons/Mr. Kissinger\n4:23 p.m., September 18, 1972\nT:\nWe put in requests all the time for him to call people when they\ndo things of help to the President.\nK:\nThe issue was that this was not of so much help to the President.\nHe shouldn't have been in it to begin with. I have now within 3 days\nof leaving Moscow violated a promise I made to Brezhnev on behalf\nof the President and it's going to make us look like the worse\ntriple-crossers ever.\nT:\nHas Scoop said anything?\nK:\nYou know goddamn well he will.\nT:\nWe'll call him and get it set up.\nK:\nHow? I mean, with what argument?\nT:\nJust tell him that we've got things working in the House and just\nforget it and stay out of it and let it take its course. He'll understand.\nYou see, we're not working on the House side now. Ford and those\nguys have already worked out to try to get the House to take the Senate\nversion. Andthen he called the other night when he passed that --\nK:\nThat's all right; I've worked it out with the Russians. If it happens,\nit's a natural event.\nT:\nRight.\nK:\nBut if Jackson can say he had a call from the President congratulating\nhim, we are in deep trouble.\nT:\nWe'll call Scoop and make sure that he doesn't do that.\nK:\nWell, I don't see how you can.\nT:\nNo, we just call and ask him and tell him it's very delicate in the\nHouse side and we'd appreciate it that if the President called any\nRepublicans and would you just shutup about it so we can get the damn\nthing through.\nK:\nAfter it's through, will he not say that the President was delighted?\nT:\nOh, I don't know. I don't know. But I think we ought to keep him\nquiet for the next few days.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 3 -\nBill Timmons/Mr. Kissinger\n4:23 p.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nWell, I don't care so much. I'm telling you we have something\nprecariously worked out with the Soviets which is not in their interest\nbut in ours and if there's one thing we don't need it's a double-cross.\nT:\nWell, you know when the President called me a half-hour ago or so\nand said he had talked to Scoop and he wanted me to know that by God\nwe should do everything in our power to get the House to take the Senate\nversion.\ngets\nK:\nYeah, but the mistake was to let him call Scoop. Once he steps on\nthe phone, there's no telling what he will say.\nT:\nYeah, but he called me and said he wanted the Senate version. He\nwanted the House to do it.\nK:\nLook, 5 minutes after hetalks to me, he will be on his goddamn knees\nbegging you to call the House off so that doesn't mean anything.\nT:\nWell, what should we do? You want me to call Scoop? That's the best\nthing to do now isn't it ?\nK:\nYeah.\nT:\nOkay.\nK:\nBut anything that touches foreign policy, please check with Haig and me.\nThe President just doesn't know all the details.\nT:\nOkay. And anything that touches Congressional relations, you'll check\nwith me, right?\nK:\nYes, I will. And if I don't, I'm just as much at fault as you are.\nT:\nOkay. Right-O.\nK:\nRight.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nDarwin Cuthbert/Mr. Kissinger\n4:40 p.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\nHello!\nC:\nDr. Kissinger?\nK:\nYes.\nC:\nThis is Darwin Cuthbert, I am the father of Major Richard\nCuthbert of the MIE.\nK:\nYes.\nC:\nAnd I, of course, you know we are all concerned about it. What\nis--I mean, this is what you might call a hard core reasoning on\nsacrificing our boys to the Vietnamese. Is there any expectation\nat all of softening this or something?\nK:\nWhat is the reference to hard core, what ?\nC:\nWell, you know, a sort of hard core reasoning on bringing the\nThieu government in there and I kn;ow the Vietnamese will not--\nI was just wondering if there's going---\nK:\nWell, I cannot go into the details of negotiations but I can tell\nyou that there is nothing that is more important to us than to\nget his release, but I cannot go into the details of the negotia-\ntions. Does that answer your question?\nC:\nI know you can't do that, but of course we had a POW meeting\nyesterday with the families and everybody in--and these wives--\nthey are on the point of nervous breakdowns, and of course you\nknow that too. But, you can't say whether they are getting a\nsettlement or getting any closer or what?\nK:\nWe can't believe what the press says, because they don't know\nanything. We are making a major effort right now but I cannot\ngo into what our position is.\nC:\nAny chance of my daughter-in-law and I coming up and talking\nto the President, or anything, and getting any views, and so forth.\nK:\nWell, let me see what I can do.\nC:\nThen, you'll let me know, or what?\nK:\nYes, do we have your address?\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nDarwin Cuthbert/Mr. Kissinger\n4:40 p.m., September 18, 1972\nC:\nMy address ? It is 2710 Avenue C, Port Madison, Iowa.\nK:\nWell, I appreciate your calling me and I'll see what I can do.\nC:\nI would appreciate it - - I'll tell you another thing, we have been\ntrying to get a confirmation of him being over there because on\nthe 69th film from Hanoi that\nbrought back, we\nidentified him - our family all over the U.S. has identified him--\nit is a clear picture. is there any way of getting an identification ?\nK:\nWell, let me look into that too.\nC:\nOkay, and you will also look into the other think ?\nK:\nYes, I shall.\nC:\nWell, I appreciate the time and help and thank you for calling\nme.\nK:\nNot at all.\nC:\nThank you very much, goodbye.\nK:\nBye.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nNIXON PRESIDENTIAL MATERIALS PROJECT\nDOCUMENT CONTROL RECORD\nITEM REMOVED FROM THIS FILE FOLDER\nSANITIZED\nA RESTRICTED DOCUMENT OR CASE FILE HAS BEEN REMOVED FROM\nTHIS FILE FOLDER. FOR A DESCRIPTION OF THE ITEM REMOVED\nAND THE REASON FOR ITS REMOVAL, CONSULT DOCUMENT ENTRY\nNUMBER\n2 ON EITHER THE DOCUMENT WITHDRAWAL RECORD\n(GSA FORM 7292 OR NA FORM 1421) OR NARA WITHDRAWAL SHEET\n(GSA FORM 7122) LOCATED IN THE FRONT OF THIS FILE FOLDER.\nA sanitized copy substituted for an original item which\nContains information restricted under the Privacy Act.\nNATIONAL ARCHIVES AND RECORDS ADMINISTRATION\nNLN FORM 101 (revised 6-85)\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nBarbara Walters/Mr. Kissinger\n9/18/72\n5:25\np.m.\nBW:\nsedretary, tell him if it is not urgent, it is as easy for\nhim to reach me tonight. I know he's terribly busy - so are you\nvery busy?\nHK:\nNo, where are you? How are you?\nBW:\nI'm in New York. I'm fine. I feel sill asking you how you are.\nI know how you are--I read absolutely everything about you and\nI know you are fine. You sound very well, with these reporters.\nHK:\nI know they want me to tell them every detail.\nBW:\nThey want you to tell them you have arranged for peace on\nNovember 6.\nHK:\nYeh. I know. I know. What they haven't explained to me is\nIt was your guy-that Valerianai- who said it was all a political game.\nWhat they haven't explained is why Le Duc Tho should play it.\nBW:\nExcept that if it were a political game, you'd be a little more\ndefinite than you've been. I heard that you weren't very\nencouraging.\nHK:\nI was nothing--neither encouraging nor discouraging. I just refused\nto say anything.\nBW:\nThe NYTimes sort of gave us the feeling that you were not--\nHK:\nYeh, but the LATimes said the opposite.\nBW:\nSorry folks, I just read the NYTimes.\nHK:\nWhen am I going to see you?\nBW:\nI also wondered if all this information today abou the Soviet Union\nand\nwould make a public reaction.\nHK:\nI haven't seen it here.\nBW:\nThat they were giving arms to the Palestian guerrillas\nHK:\nOh really, I haven't seen that. No one tells me anything.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nBW:\nYou're just going to have to read the papers.\nHK:\nI tell you ar watch the Today Show--but you weren't on the Today\nShow--today.\nBW:\nNo, I was not on the show this morning. I had a very strange feeling\nthis morning. I don't observe any of the holidays and it doesn't have\nthat kind of a feeling to me, but I think there are enough people who\nknow that I'm Jewish and that I should stay home on a holiday on ths\n--SO I come to work where it doesn't matter, but I don't go on the air.\nHK:\nNo, I think that's right.\nBW:\nI'm calling on part business and obviously never all business.\nDid you talk to Bob (?) doing something with us in October.\nHK:\nLet me talk to Haldemand I'll almost certainly do it.\nBW:\nNow are you also doing something with CBS?\nHK:\nThey've now proposed it for a Sunday evening at 6:00 which is a lousy\ntime.\nBW:\nYes, its not a very good time.\nBut have you acceptedthat?\nHK:\nSort of in a half pegged way, but I'm now thinking of dropping it again.\nBW:\nWhat did you have in mind for us.\nHK:\nWell you made the suggestion, what did you have in mind?\nBW:\nI had mind that we'd come to Washington and sit down and talk with\nyou and you kno,w, whenever we can, the day after you've talked.\nHK:\nMay I buy you a cup of coffe afterwards?\nBW:\nWell I don't know, that's awfully personal.\nHK:\nI know, I know and you always try to keep your feelings out\nBW:\nI almost sent you a couple of clippings, because after you left, I\nwas going to send this and say you see I'm SO pure at heart that\nno matter what we do there was a picture of us that was taken at\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\n-\nPage 3\nTaft House.\nHK:\nI have never seen that/\nBW:\nWell there we were and\nHK:\nIs that were I had my arms around you? (laughing)\nBW:\nNo, I was standing next to the Senator and you were standing next\nhis wife. And there was a big blab and the woman who gave it who\nwas a lady whom you may becall was south American or Latin\nAmerican said \"Although Dr. Kissinger and Barbara Walters came\nin together, it was absolutely and totally coincidental. They just\nhappened to walk in together.\nHK:\nIsn't that rude?\nBW:\nI was very disappointed by it.\nHK:\nAll I can say is that I spend more time in a crowd with you than\nwith any other person in years.\nBW:\nMy goodness and think of all the things Iforgot to ask you.\nI am going on vacation which is why I am calling you now about it.\nI will be on vacation the week of the 5th of October- now I could\nstill come and do it--\nHK:\nNo, no, we'll do it the next week.\nBW:\nNow the next week which is the week of the 9th I'm going to be\nin California.\nHK:\nThen let's do it on the following week.\nBW:\nI'll be back on the 16th and in Washington as a matter of fact on the\n17th because I'm going to be covering the opening of the Arthur\nMiller play and interviewing him the next day. It opens at the Kenedy\nCenter-.\nHK:\nDo you want to stay and have dinner with me the next day--\nBW:\nYou mean the 17th?\nHK:\nYou're covering the play on the 17th arent'y yor.\nBW:\nYes, the play opens on the 17th.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 4\nHK:\nWant to do it the 18th.\nBW:\nAnd do the interview on the 18th.\nHK:\nNo want to have dinner with me on the 18th.\nBW:\nWe've never had dinne r together- my goodness, yes I'd love\nto have dinner with you on the 18th. Do you think we might do\nthe interview that day too. I hate to discuss things with you,\nbut do you think we might do the interview that day?\nHK:\nAs they say in Russia -- are the two things linked? I'm against\nlinkage.\nBW:\nI'm against linkage too--let's discuss one thing at a time. Talk\nto Haldeman, see--\nHK:\nI will propose the 18th\nBW:\nHaldeman alsways says to us, well how much time are you going to\ngive obviously you know if we do an interview with you and talk for\nand hour--we'll want an hour, if we talk for 3 minutes then 3 minutes\n.-it depends on how much at that point you feel you are free to say.\nHK:\nI can't say anything in three minutes. Look I'm\nBW:\nWhat did we run the last one--I think we ran it over three days.\nHK:\nI'm relaxed about that.\nBW:\nObvousliy we would like very much to do and we'll talk and figure\nout what we are going to be doing.\nHK:\nSo we 11 have dinner on the 18th.\nBW:\nYou are not going to be in town this weekend are you.\nHK:\nIn New York? No I don't think so. Why.\nSandra Falua (sp) and I\nBW:\nA friend of mine/were having a party Sunday night and I thought if\nyou and Nancy were here, I'd love you to drop in. It's a large party\nand it's not the kind of thing I would say ofi please come, you'll have\nsuch a wonderful time.\nHK:\nIf I should be in NY, which I doubt, may I let you know?\nBW:\nOf course, and you have my home number.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 5\nBW:\nSANITIZED\n(home phone.)\nYou know it will be Molly and the Javit's\nand that whole thing and lots of others. Just call at the last minute,\ncome whatever, you know where I live. And if not, I will talk with\nyou before I go on vacation ar you'll call me as soon as Haldeman\nhas said something.\nHK:\nWhere are you going?\nBW:\nI'm staying in New York one week because I haven't had time here\nand do you know Artie and Harriet Deutch-\nHK:\nI know who they are, but I don't\nBW:\nHe had asked me to come out--\nHK:\nI had met them but I don't know where they are living.\nIn Beverly Hills don't they?\nBW:\nThey wanted me to speak to a group and I never do, but I thought\nwell--\nHK:\nOh, I know that group isn't it that 400 Club. They also asked me.\nBW:\nIt was a good time for me to take a vacation-. I have all this time\ncoming to me--I have six weeks.\nI'm in Washington next week and will call you from there maybe.\nHK:\nWhat day?\nBW:\nOn Thursday. for the interview with the McGovern kids.\nHK:\nWant to have lunch.\nBW:\nI can't on Friday because I will be doing the \"Not for Women Only\"\nthing as well and will stay on and tape the whole day of that so it'll\nbe an all day I won't be finished until 5:00--\nHK:\nCall me let's see if we can get a glimpse of each other anyway.\nBW:\nI call when I am there. What I had planned to do at this point was\nto leave right after and get home. If you find you have a half hour\nor something I will take a later shuttle, but don't--\nHK:\nIf I don't have a half hour for an old friend.\nBW:\nI'd love to see you if I can--I'll call Thursday or Friday\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nMr. Kissinger/Mr. VanderBuegel\n9/18/72 5:45 p.m.\nHK:\nErnst, how are you?\nEV:\nI'm fine and you? You look fine. I can judge that.\nHK:\nI'm gaining weight.\nEV:\nAre you in Washington Sunday?\nHK:\nYes, but frankly I was going to go to a football game that starts\naround lunchtime.\nEV:\nThen we must change it.\nWhat about Saturday?\nHK:\nSaturday would be great. Why don't you come for dinner.\nEV:\nCould it be an early dinner--no, not an --I come for dinner\nand I take a room in Washington.\nHK:\nAll right.\nEV:\nAnd leave the next morning. Is that all right? Why time?\nAnything is right for me.\nHK:\nAny time-do you want me to get some theater tickets no\nEV:\nNo, I wish not.\nHK:\nOkay.\nEV:\nThen we can spend a quiet evening together.\nHK:\nAnytime~-7:00=7:30~8:00\nEV:\n7:30 White House or in your house?\nHK:\nMy house is an unbelievable mess\nEV:\nShall we say 7:30 in the White House.\nHK:\nWhy don't I pick you up whatevery hotel you are staying at.\nEV:\nOkay, I'll let you know where I am.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nPage 2\nHK:\nIf you let me know when you arrive, I'll send a car for you.\nEV:\nOkay, I'll probably come by metroliner. I'll fix that with your\nsecretary.\nHK:\nTerrific. It will be marvelous to see you. Nancy will probably\nbe down here.\nEV:\nOh marvelous- and then you go to the football game and I leave\non Sunday. And we have a quiet eveing.\nHK:\nThat will be very good to see you again.\nEV:\nAnd I'll let you know exactly when I arrive and where we\nwill meet.\nHK:\nHow have you been?\nEV:\nI'm fine. Excellent.\nHK:\nWe'll talk about everything Saturday.\nEV:\nWhom shall I talk with yin your office--you have so many.\nHK:\nMr. Campbell - or Miss Pineau.\nAnd if your lucky, they'll let me know two days after. you have\nleft when you have arrived here.\nEV:\nAll right. I³ll fix it.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nCharles Bludhorn/Mr. Kissinger\n7:53 p.m., September 18, 1972\nB:\nHenry, how are you?\nK:\nOkay, how are you?\nB:\nYou're a world traveler. You know, I thought that I sort of posted a\nfew miles but you've got me by a long shot. Of course, you've got\n4 jets; I only got 2 on mine.\nK:\nIt helps.\nB:\nIt helps a lot. How are you feeling?\nK:\nOkay.\nB:\nFeeling all right after all the traveling?\nK:\nYeah, I feel fine.\nB:\nHenry, I got back now and I'm going to be in New York for a while\nand there's nothing specific that I have to bother you with or anything\nlike that but I just wanted to visit in with you to just be sure tha t if\nyou get up to New York at all on any occasion and you've got a few\nminutes you may want to get together for a few minutes.\nK:\nOkay.\nB:\nI don't know whether you are in any position to talk a couple of minutes,\nare you?\nK:\nActually you called me on the way out.\nB:\nWell, all right. That's what I know, I think you was just about I\njust spilled something all over the place while I was talking to you.\nNo, I'm not going to hold you up because I have nothing specific to\ndiscuss with you. I just wanted to know if there was any if in the\ninterim period if there's any additional information or any damn thing\nyou want.\nK:\nNo, I have all the information I need and I really am in no position\nnow to do anything until after the election.\nB:\nNo, no, no, no; I'm well aware of that. I'm quite well aware of that\nbecause you made that very, very clear to me. But I know you were\ndoing a little bit of interim work and if you need anything at all, you\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n- 2 -\nCharles Bludhorn/Mr. Kissinger\n7:53 p.m., September 18, 1972\nB:\n(cont'd) know I'm available.\nK:\nWell, look, let me let you know when I come to New York and maybe\nwe can get together for a visit.\nB:\nWell, Henry, let's get something straight. You know, this call is not\nmeant to apply any pressure or any --\nK:\nOh, no, no; I consider it --\nB:\nYour position has been made so clear that, you know, I could read it\nin Chinese but I'm just checking in with you because --\nK:\nNo, you told me you were going to check in when you got back.\nB:\nThat's correct.\nK:\nSo that we could get together socially or semi-socially when I got to\nNew York.\nB:\nExactly.\nK:\nGood.\nB:\nWell, I'm going to be here now at least until the middle of October and\non short notice if you just call me, I'm standing exactly pat and it's\njust exactly where it was when I saw you.\nK:\nVery good. I appreciate it very much.\nabsolutely\nB:\nWell, I just wanted to let you know that and there is no mindfulness.\nI understand your predictment very well.\nK:\nGood.\nB:\nBut as I say I will be here -- I've got to go to Paris around October 15th\nfor about a week but I will be here mostly for the next three or four weeks\nand if you get up to New York or if I'm down in Washington, maybe we'll\njust spend 5 or 10 minutes.\nK:\nOf course.\nB:\nNothing that has any relevancy, you know, beyond --\nK:\nNo, I understand. Well, you let me know when you come to Washington\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\n-3- -\nCharles Bludhorn/Mr. Kissinger\n7:53 p.m., September 18, 1972\nK:\n(cont'd) and I'll do the same if I come to New York.\nB:\nOkay, Henry.\nK:\nGood. Great to talk to you.\nB:\nOkay.\nK:\nBye.\nwgh\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified."
}