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Secretary Rogers/Mr. Kissinger
- 6 -
R:
Well, I'm not so sure. I agree with you there's nothing we
can do about what they have done. I mean, how the hell can anybody
take issue with that. I think there's a good deal we can do about the future,
but I don't think this is the way to do it.
K:
Oh, I agree with that.
R:
Taking the case in NATO, there was general agreement among
everyone, including the Germans, that there were pitfalls; we had to
be careful; the Germans vowed in public and in private that they would
not get out of step, etc., etc. Now, obviously, that may be wrong;
obviously, they may be misleading us. But, Christ, we don't want to
be
K:
No, I don't think they'l do it deliberately. Well, I think Bahr
is, of course, totally unreliable. You agree with that. And I think
Scheel is a dope, but that's neither here nor there. I think the basic
trend is going to lead towards a more nationalistic policy, but the
worst thing we can do is behave like a maiden aunt, clucking our tongue
without having a concrete proposal.
R:
And, of course, the building nationalism which is not only growing
in Germany but everywhere -- but particularly in Germany -- is going
to be more than assisted, and really increased at a real fast tempo if
they can say that the United States is treating Germany as if they are
a God-damned puppet. I mean, here we are trying to do the best we
can to improve our relations with the Soviet Union, and the United States
is talking out of both sides of its mouth. That's what frightens me and,
as you noticed, the Russians are exploiting that now. The Russians
and their propaganda -- if they don't believe what the Americans tell
you publicly because they are lying to you. What they really think is
what they are saying privately, and what they are saying privately is
that you have no right to do anything you want to that helps you. I
mean, if you don't do what they tell you, why they won't like it.
K:
I think we should, in general, applaud detente and specifically
trying to stay out of as much of their internal dispute as we possibly can.
R:
And, three, don't let them do anything
Don't agree to
anything that we don't think is acceptable.
K:
We shouldn't break the back of the people who worked with us
in Germany for 20 years, but none of this requires Acheson popping off
and none of this requires public posturing. I think the stance you've
taken is the one that I agree with.
R:
You know, we got the NATO allies now in NATO to repeat exactly
our position; that is, our position is fine, this is good; we think you
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"ocrText": "Secretary Rogers/Mr. Kissinger\n- 6 -\nR:\nWell, I'm not so sure. I agree with you there's nothing we\ncan do about what they have done. I mean, how the hell can anybody\ntake issue with that. I think there's a good deal we can do about the future,\nbut I don't think this is the way to do it.\nK:\nOh, I agree with that.\nR:\nTaking the case in NATO, there was general agreement among\neveryone, including the Germans, that there were pitfalls; we had to\nbe careful; the Germans vowed in public and in private that they would\nnot get out of step, etc., etc. Now, obviously, that may be wrong;\nobviously, they may be misleading us. But, Christ, we don't want to\nbe\nK:\nNo, I don't think they'l do it deliberately. Well, I think Bahr\nis, of course, totally unreliable. You agree with that. And I think\nScheel is a dope, but that's neither here nor there. I think the basic\ntrend is going to lead towards a more nationalistic policy, but the\nworst thing we can do is behave like a maiden aunt, clucking our tongue\nwithout having a concrete proposal.\nR:\nAnd, of course, the building nationalism which is not only growing\nin Germany but everywhere -- but particularly in Germany -- is going\nto be more than assisted, and really increased at a real fast tempo if\nthey can say that the United States is treating Germany as if they are\na God-damned puppet. I mean, here we are trying to do the best we\ncan to improve our relations with the Soviet Union, and the United States\nis talking out of both sides of its mouth. That's what frightens me and,\nas you noticed, the Russians are exploiting that now. The Russians\nand their propaganda -- if they don't believe what the Americans tell\nyou publicly because they are lying to you. What they really think is\nwhat they are saying privately, and what they are saying privately is\nthat you have no right to do anything you want to that helps you. I\nmean, if you don't do what they tell you, why they won't like it.\nK:\nI think we should, in general, applaud detente and specifically\ntrying to stay out of as much of their internal dispute as we possibly can.\nR:\nAnd, three, don't let them do anything\nDon't agree to\nanything that we don't think is acceptable.\nK:\nWe shouldn't break the back of the people who worked with us\nin Germany for 20 years, but none of this requires Acheson popping off\nand none of this requires public posturing. I think the stance you've\ntaken is the one that I agree with.\nR:\nYou know, we got the NATO allies now in NATO to repeat exactly\nour position; that is, our position is fine, this is good; we think you"
}