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118565604
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Iran/Arms Transaction: 12/07/1985, Meeting (1)
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118565604
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Iran/Arms Transaction: 12/07/1985, Meeting (1)
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Records of the Office of Counsel to the President (Reagan Administration)
Arthur Culvahouse's Office Files
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118565604
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1988-12-31
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1987-01-01
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1987
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Ronald Reagan Presidential Library
Digital Library Collections
This is a PDF of a folder from our textual collections.
Collection: Culvahouse, Arthur B.: Files
Folder Title: Iran/Arms Transaction: 12/07/1985,
Meeting (1)
Box: CFOA 1131
To see more digitized collections visit:
https://reaganlibrary.gov/archives/digital-library
To see all Ronald Reagan Presidential Library inventories visit:
https://reaganlibrary.gov/document-collection
Contact a reference archivist at: [email protected]
Citation Guidelines: https://reaganlibrary.gov/citing
National Archives Catalogue: https://catalog.archives.gov/
WITHDRAWAL SHEET
Ronald Reagan Library
Collection Name CULVAHOUSE, ARTHUR B.:FILES
Withdrawer
DLB
4/1/2014
File Folder
IRAN/ARMS TRANSACTION: DECEMBER 7, 1985
FOIA
MEETING (1 OF 3)
S643
Box Number
CFOA 1131
SYSTEMATIC
116
ID
Doc Type
Document Description
No of Doc Date Restrictions
Pages
164650
TESTIMONY
PRESIDENTIAL TESTIMONY TO TOWER
2 2/11/1986 B1
BOARD, P. 16-17
164651
TESTIMONY
PRESIDENTIAL TESTIMONY - TOWER
2 1/26/1986 B1
BOARD, P. 13-14
164652
TESTIMONY
TOWER BOARD INTERVIEW WITH
6 1/22/1987 B1
GEORGE SHULTZ, JANUARY 22, 1987
164653
TESTIMONY
TOWER BOARD INTERVIEW OF CASPAR
6 1/14/1987 B1
WEINBERGER, JANUARY 14, 1987
164654
TESTIMONY
DON REGAN, TOWER BOARD P.14-16
3
ND
B1
164655
DEPOSTION
DEPOSITION OF DONALD REGAN,
4 3/3/1987 B1
MARCH 3, 1987 (3:15 P.M.)P. 57-59
The above documents were not referred for declassification review at time of processing
Freedom of Information Act - [5 U.S.C. 552(b)]
B-1 National security classified information [(b)(1) of the FOIA]
B-2 Release would disclose internal personnel rules and practices of an agency [(b)(2) of the FOIA]
B-3 Release would violate a Federal statute [(b)(3) of the FOIA]
B-4 Release would disclose trade secrets or confidential or financial information [(b)(4) of the FOIA]
B-6 Release would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy [(b)(6) of the FOIA]
B-7 Release would disclose information compiled for law enforcement purposes [(b)(7) of the FOIA]
B-8 Release would disclose information concerning the regulation of financial institutions [(b)(8) of the FOIA]
B-9 Release would disclose geological or geophysical information concerning wells [(b)(9) of the FOIA]
C. Closed in accordance with restrictions contained in donor's deed of gift.
THE WHITE HOUSE
WASHINGTON
July 17, 1987
MEMORANDUM FOR ARTHUR B. CULVAHOUSE, JR.
FROM:
WILLIAM B. LYTTON III
SUBJECT:
DECEMBER 7, 1985 MEETING
On Saturday, December 7, 1985, these was a meeting from
10:00 am to 11:58 am in the Residence at the White House. In
attendance were the President (in pajamas and a bathrobe),
Secretary Shultz, Secretary Weinberger, Deputy Director of
Central Intelligence McMahon, Robert McFarlane, John Poindexter
and Don Regan.
No contemporaneous notes were, to our knowledge, taken.
However, Secretary Shultz and Secretary Weinberger "backbriefed"
their assistants who in turn made some notes.
Under discussion was the status of the strategic opening to
Iran: the efforts of the Iranians to have the hostages released
and the United States supplying, either directly or indirectly,
arms to Iran. McFarlane met a few days afterwards with
Ghorbanifar in London.
The notes of Shultz' aide, Charles Hill, reflect that
Shultz, Weinberger and Don Regan strongly opposed the arms
transfers, followed by the note, "Against the law. McFarlane,
Poindexter and the President are listed as "in favor." There is
a further note: "no decision yet. " There is then a discussion
of McFarlane going to London, followed by, "[the President] said
American people won't understand if 4 hostages died because I did
not break the law. II
Weinberger briefed Armitage who apparently briefed Arnie Rafel at
State, who in turn briefed Chris Ross (of State) on what
Weinberger had told him of the same meeting. His notes are
consistent with Hill's, but more expansive:
On the legal issue, the President has said that the American
people would understand if he broke the law to get the
hostages back; they would not understand it if four hostages
died because he refused to break the law. The President
said, "they" could impeach him if they wanted; visiting
hours in prison were on Thursdays. Weinberger pointed out
that, in such a case, the President would not be alone.
The President noted in his diary that night that there was
disagreement among the group and that no decisions were made that
day; they were at a stalemate.
In his Tower Board interview on January 26, 1987 (Tab 1),
the President recalled a meeting on December 7, 1985 at which the
complex hostage plan proposed by the Iranians was discussed.
This was the first time Secretaries Shultz and Weinberger's
objections were "noted down" by the President. The discussion
produced a stalemate. There is no reference in this interview of
the legal issues.
Secretary Shultz has not been deposed by the Select
Committees. He is scheduled to testify before the Committees on
Thursday, July 23, and Friday, July 24, 1987. The designated
hitters are Senators Inouye and Rudman, and Representatives
Fascell and Broomfield. The attorney is Mark Belnick. It
appears he may be the first witness asked in detail about the
Charlie Hill notes. In Shultz' Tower Board interview of January
22, 1987, (Tab 2), he discussed the December 7, 1985 meeting. He
did not discuss the legal issues. He noted that no decision was
made at that meeting, though the President seemed to be in favor
of the Iranian project. Shultz is expected to testify that legal
questions concerning the Arms Export Control Act were raised, and
that the President was frustrated about these legal issues. In
that context, the President said the people would not understand
if he let the hostages die because he did not want to violate the
law. Thereafter, the Attorney General was consulted and a legal
manner of proceeding was implemented.
Secretary Weinberger has been deposed, but we have not been
given a copy of the transcript. I have been told that he
testified he did not recall the discussion referred to in the
Charlie Hill notes. In his Tower Board interview on January 14,
1987 (Tab 3), he did not discuss the legal issues raised at the
meeting. He said he had expressed his strong opposition and
"went through a whole catalogue of things which didn't require
any gift of prophesy as to what would happen if this became
public. His impression was that the President had decided not
to go forward.
Don Regan, in his Tower Board interview of January 7, 1987
(Tab 4), did not discuss the legal issues. However, he said that
McMahon raised the question of the source of the formal authority
to send arms. In his Senate Select Committee deposition on March
3, 1987 (Tab 5), he did not address the legal issues.
2
John McMahon, in his Tower Board interview of January 6,
1987 (Tab 6), does not discuss the legal issues. He notes,
however, "There was no decision. We didn't walk away with any
marching orders or any decision at that moment."
McFarlane discussed this meeting in his Tower Board
interviews of December 11, 1986 (Tab 7) and February 19, 1987
(Tab 8), as well as in his testimony of May 11, 1987 (Tab 9). In
his Tower Board interviews, the legal issue was not raised. In
his testimony, he was asked if he recalled Weinberger saying it
was not legal for Israel to be selling weapons subject to an
agreement by the United States to replace them. He answered, "it
doesn't stand out. However, he had made the point in law back in
August of that year, and so it is very likely that he would make
it again. He further testified that the President's view was
that there should not be arms sales to the Iranians, but that he
was "disappointed, frustrated that things had not gone better,
but resigned to accepting that if that was the case, don't go
ahead."
Poindexter, in his deposition of May 2, 1987 (Tab 10),
discussed the meeting at length and noted that Shultz "thought
there was a legal problem with regard to the Arms Export Control
Act." Weinberger made similar arguments. At the end, the
President said, "I think we ought to go ahead. As far as the
hostages are concerned, I just couldn't sleep if we didn't pursue
every possibility
If we succeed in this, we will all be
heroes; if we don't, it will be very difficult."
Liman then asked:
Q. He used more colorful language than that, didn't he?
A. I really can't recall his precise words. I don't sound
like the President right now, so his words would have
been different.
Q. Did he say visiting days would be on Thursday?
A. I don't recall. He may have said that. He is kind of
anecdotal, but then he did go on to say -- he said,
"But, you know, II he said, "I'm convinced that if I ever
have to explain this to the American public, I can do
it
I feel very comfortable about it."
In his deposition of June 18, 1987 (Tab 11), Poindexter said
Shultz and Weinberger "made such a big issue of the illegality of
it" that in early December, he asked North to ask the Attorney
General or his people about that problem, "because clearly if it
were illegal we couldn't go ahead with it." In his public
testimony of July 15, 1987 (Tab 12), Poindexter said that Shultz
and Weinberger opposed the arms transaction for a number of
reasons, including "that it was contrary to the Arms Export
Control Act."
3
Richard Armitage was interviewed by the Tower Board on
December 18, 1986 (Tab 13) . He said Weinberger had backbriefed
him after the meeting and that Shultz and he had strongly opposed
going forward. Weinberger said, "we think we've strangled the
baby in his cradle. " Armitage said he had discussed this issue
in advance with Arnie Rafel at State to insure that Shultz and
Weinberger would be making the same argument.
The Tower Board Report's summary of the December 7, 1985
meeting is attached at Tab 14.
4
Index
Tab 1
President's Tower Board Interview - 1/26/87
2
Shultz's Tower Board Interview - 1/22/87
3
Weinberger's Tower Board Interview - 1/14/87
4
Regan's Tower Board Interview - 1/7/87
5
Regan's Deposition - 3/3/87
6
McMahon's Tower Board Interview - 1/6/87
7
McFarlane's Tower Board Interview - 12/11/86
8
McFarlane's Tower Board Interview - 2/19/87
9
McFarlane's Testimony - 5/11/87
10
Poindexter's Deposition - 5/2/87
11
Poindexter's Deposition - 6/18/87
12
Poindexter's Testimony - 7/15/87
13
Armitage's Tower Board Interview - 12/18/86
14
Tower Board Report, B-42-B-45
5
1
WITHDRAWAL SHEET
Ronald Reagan Library
Collection Name
Withdrawer
CULVAHOUSE, ARTHUR 3.:FILES
DLB 4/1/2014
File Folder
FOIA
IRAN/ARMS TRANSACTION: DECEMBER 7, 1985 MEETING
S643
(1 OF 3)
SYSTEMATIC
Box Number
CFOA 1131
116
ID
Document Type
No of Doc Date
Restric-
Document Description
pages
tions
164650 TESTIMONY
2 2/11/1986
B1
PRESIDENTIAL TESTIMONY TO TOWER BOARD,
P. 16-17
The above documents were not referred for declassification review at time of processing
Freedom of Information Act - [5 U.S.C. 552(b)]
B-1 National security classified information [(b)(1) of the FOIA]
B-2 Release would disclose internal personnel rules and practices of an agency [(b)(2) of the FOIA]
B-3 Release would violate a Federal statute [(b)(3) of the FOIA]
B-4 Release would disclose trade secrets or confidential or financial information [(b)(4) of the FOIA]
B-6 Release would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy [(b)(6) of the FOIA]
B-7 Release would disclose information compiled for law enforcement purposes [(b)(7) of the FOIA]
B-8 Release would disclose information concerning the regulation of financial institutions [(b)(8) of the FOIA]
B-9 Release would disclose geological or geophysical information concerning wells [(b)(9) of the FOIA]
C. Closed in accordance with restrictions contained in donor's deed of gift.
WITHDRAWAL SHEET
Ronald Reagan Library
Collection Name
Withdrawer
CULVAHOUSE, ARTHUR B.:FILES
DLB 4/1/2014
File Folder
FOIA
IRAN/ARMS TRANSACTION: DECEMBER 7, 1985 MEETING
S643
(1 OF 3)
SYSTEMATIC
Box Number
CFOA 1131
116
ID
Document Type
No of Doc Date Restric-
Document Description
pages
tions
164651 TESTIMONY
2 1/26/1986
B1
PRESIDENTIAL TESTIMONY - TOWER BOARD, P.
13-14
The above documents were not referred for declassification review at time of processing
Freedom of Information Act - [5 U.S.C. 552(b)]
B-1 National security classified information [(b)(1) of the FOIA]
B-2 Release would disclose internal personnel rules and practices of an agency [(b)(2) of the FOIA]
B-3 Release would violate a Federal statute [(b)(3) of the FOIA]
B-4 Release would disclose trade secrets or confidential or financial information [(b)(4) of the FOIA]
B-6 Release would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy [(b)(6) of the FOIA]
B-7 Release would disclose information compiled for law enforcement purposes [(b)(7) of the FOIA]
B-8 Release would disclose information concerning the regulation of financial institutions [(b)(8) of the FOIA]
B-9 Release would disclose geological or geophysical information concerning wells [(b)(9) of the FOIA]
C. Closed in accordance with restrictions contained in donor's deed of gift.
N
3
WITHDRAWAL SHEET
Ronald Reagan Library
Collection Name
Withdrawer
CULVAHOUSE, ARTHUR 3.:FILES
DLB 4/1/2014
File Folder
FOIA
IRAN/ARMS TRANSACTION: DECEMBER 7, 1985 MEETING
S643
(1 OF 3)
SYSTEMATIC
Box Number
CFOA 1131
116
ID
Document Type
No
of
Doc Date
Restric-
pages
tions
Document Description
164653 TESTIMONY
6 1/14/1987
B1
TOWER BOARD INTERVIEW OF CASPAR
WEINBERGER, JANUARY 14, 1987
The above documents were not referred for declassification review at time of processing
Freedom of Information Act - [5 U.S.C. 552(b)]
B-1 National security classified information [(b)(1) of the FOIA]
B-2 Release would disclose internal personnel rules and practices of an agency [(b)(2) of the FOIA]
B-3 Release would violate a Federal statute [(b)(3) of the FOIA]
B-4 Release would disclose trade secrets or confidential or financial information [(b)(4) of the FOIA]
B-6 Release would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy [(b)(6) of the FOIA]
B-7 Release would disclose information compiled for law enforcement purposes [(b)(7) of the FOIA]
B-8 Release would disclose information concerning the regulation of financial institutions [(b)(8) of the FOIA]
B-9 Release would disclose geological or geophysical information concerning wells [(b)(9) of the FOIA]
C. Closed in accordance with restrictions contained in donor's deed of gift.
4
WITHDRAWAL SHEET
Ronald Reagan Library
Collection Name
Withdrawer
CULVAHOUSE, ARTHUR B. FILES
DLB 4/1/2014
File Folder
FOIA
IRAN/ARMS TRANSACTION: DECEMBER 7, 1985 MEETING
S643
(1 OF 3)
SYSTEMATIC
Box Number
CFOA 1131
116
ID
Document Type
No of Doc Date
Restric-
Document Description
pages
tions
164654 TESTIMONY
3
ND
B1
DON REGAN, TOWER BOARD P.14-16
The above documents were not referred for declassification review at time of processing
Freedom of Information Act - [5 U.S.C. 552(b)]
B-1 National security classified information [(b)(1) of the FOIA]
B-2 Release would disclose internal personnel rules and practices of an agency [(b)(2) of the FOIA]
B-3 Release would violate a Federal statute [(b)(3) of the FOIA]
B-4 Release would disclose trade secrets or confidential or financial information [(b)(4) of the FOIA]
B-6 Release would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy [(b)(6) of the FOIA]
B-7 Release would disclose information compiled for law enforcement purposes [(b)(7) of the FOIA]
B-8 Release would disclose information concerning the regulation of financial institutions [(b)(8) of the FOIA]
B-9 Release would disclose geological or geophysical information concerning wells [(b)(9) of the FOIA]
C. Closed in accordance with restrictions contained in donor's deed of gift.
5
WITHDRAWAL SHEET
Ronald Reagan Library
Collection Name
Withdrawer
CULVAHOUSE, ARTHUR B.:FILES
DLB 4/1/2014
File Folder
FOIA
IRAN/ARMS TRANSACTION: DECEMBER 7, 1985 MEETING
S643
(1 OF 3)
SYSTEMATIC
Box Number
CFOA 1131
116
ID
Document Type
No of Doc Date Restric-
Document Description
pages
tions
164655 DEPOSTION
4 3/3/1987
B1
DEPOSITION OF DONALD REGAN, MARCH 3,
1987 (3:15 P.M.)P. 57-59
The above documents were not referred for declassification review at time of processing
Freedom of Information Act - [5 U.S.C. 552(b)]
B-1 National security classified information [(b)(1) of the FOIA]
B-2 Release would disclose internal personnel rules and practices of an agency [(b)(2) of the FOIA]
B-3 Release would violate a Federal statute [(b)(3) of the FOIA]
B-4 Release would disclose trade secrets or confidential or financial information [(b)(4) of the FOIA]
B-6 Release would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy [(b)(6) of the FOIA]
B-7 Release would disclose information compiled for law enforcement purposes [(b)(7) of the FOIA]
B-8 Release would disclose information concerning the regulation of financial institutions [(b)(8) of the FOIA]
B-9 Release would disclose geological or geophysical information concerning wells [(b)(9) of the FOIA]
C. Closed in accordance with restrictions contained in donor's deed of gift.