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Ronald Reagan Presidential Library
Digital Library Collections
This is a PDF of a folder from our textual collections.
Collection: Reagan, Ronald: 1980 Campaign Papers
1965-80
Folder Title: [Transcript - 1980 Presidential Forum, Midwest
Region Republicans, 03/13/1980] (1 of 2)
Box: 247
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https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/digitized-textual-material
To see all Ronald Reagan Presidential Library inventories visit:
https://www.reaganlibrary.gov/archives/white-house-inventories
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1
1980 PRESIDENTIAL FORUM
2
MIDWEST REGION
3
REPUBLICANS
4
5
6
7
TRANSCRIPT OF PROCEEDINGS had at the
8
1980 Presidential Forum, Midwest Region, sponsored
9
by the League of Women Voters, held at The Continental
10
Plaza Hotel, Wellington Ballroom, Chicago, Illinois,
11
on the 13th day of March 1980, commencing at
12
8:00 o'clock p.m.
13
14
INVITED CANDIDATES:
15
John B. Anderson
16
George Bush
17
Philip Crane
18
Ronald Reagan
19
20
MODERATOR:
21
Howard K. Smith
22
23
24
2
1
MS. RUTH HINERFELD: Good evening. I'm Ruth
2
Hinerfeld, National President of the League of Women
3
Voters.
4
Tonight here in Chicago where the League
5
was founded 60 years ago, we're continuing our
6
tradition of providing the public with nonpartisan
7
information about candidates and about issues by
8
presenting this, the second event, in our series
9
of 1980 presidential forums. Our moderator is the
10
distinguished news correspondent, Howard K. Smith.
11
MODERATOR SMITH: Thank you, Mrs. Hinerfeld.
12
Good evening. We're pleased to have with us tonight
13
four candidates for the nomination for the presidency
14
of the United States by the Republican Party. They
15
are Congressman Philip Crane of Illinois, former
16
Ambassador George Bush of Texas, former Governor
17
Ronald Reagan of California, and Congressman John
18
Anderson of Illinois.
19
Gentlemen, the format for this forum will
20
be rather different from those of past forums. The
21
campaign has now gone a fair ways, and there are
22
fewer candidates, and your views are known generally
23
on most issues to most of the public. So we hope to
24
turn this into a kind of an informal discussion,
3
1
possibly even a kind of a debate among you.
2
The forum will last for 90 minutes. It
3
will be divided into three segments, the first,
4
domestic affairs, second, foreign affairs, and the
5
third, the presidency and politics. Towards the end
6
of the forum we will take some questions from the
7
audience and then at the end you will have your time
8
to sum up in your closing statements.
9
Before we go down to issues of substance,
10
I would like to tell you that I've had an assurance
11
that former President Gerald Ford is watching us
12
tonight, and I wonder, are there any messages?
13
Mr. Crane?
14
PHILIP CRANE: I think Governor Reagan said
15
it, you know, break out the long johns and come join
16
the fray if he's so inclined. He missed all of the
17
cold weather, though, up there in New Hampshire and
18
Massachusetts.
19
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Bush?
20
GEORGE BUSH: No, I have nothing to add on that
21
particular question. I served under President Ford,
22
have great respect for him, and come on in, the
23
water's fine. It's going to be very competitive
24
right on down to Detroit. I think everybody knows
4
1
that, and there's another room up here, so come on,
2
let's go.
3
MODERATOR SMITH: Governor Reagan?
4
RONALD REAGAN: Well, I go along with all this
5
that's been said, but I think at least someone here
6
ought to point out if he's sitting in Palm Springs,
7
it's snowing here.
8
JOHN ANDERSON: All I was going to say for my-
9
self, Howard, that as that brooding omnipresence
10
watches us from Palm Springs, I would at least like
11
to send him greetings. And like the others, I have
12
known the former president for some 20 years, served
13
with him in the leadership of the U. S. House for a
14
number of years, I respect and admire him greatly.
15
But I, for one, would not want to see him disturb
16
his weli-deserved retirement. I think we have plenty
17
of candidates in the field.
18
MODERATOR SMITH: Gentlemen, certainly the
19
topic of most concern to the American public remains
20
that awful topic of inflation. Tomorrow President
21
Carter will announce his plans to fight inflation.
22
You can almost guess what's in it.
23
Very simply, there are going to be cuts
24
in Government expenditures, highway programs, jobs
5
1
programs and other things, going to be additional
2
Federal revenue from an import on oil, all of this
3
designed to fulfill the pledge which he has made
4
and which you have made to balance the Federal budget.
5
Now, I would like to ask you a question
6
about balancing the Federal budget. Every Republican
7
presidential candidate that I know of for the past--
8
since World War II has made a pledge to balance the
9
budget. None has yet succeeded.
10
President Eisenhower, who took it as a
11
matter of faith almost, accumulated the biggest eight-
12
year deficit of any president we'd had up to that
13
time. In six years President Nixon, Republican, got
14
a bigger deficit. And President Ford presided over
15
the biggest one year deficit in American history,
16
60 billion dollar deficit in one year.
17
Now, why should voters believe that if
18
those men, who are strong men and who intended to do
19
what they said, fail, that you will succeed in your
20
pledge to balance the Federal budget?
21
Mr. Anderson?
22
JOHN ANDERSON: Mr. Smith, I think because the
23
motivation this time is quite different. No president
24
in many, many years, possibly since the Great Depression,
6
1
has faced the situation confronting the country today.
2
We have conservative financial advisors around the
3
country speaking in very apocalyptic terms about
4
a national emergency, even about the prospect of
5
national bankruptcy.
6
And we learned today that the prime rate
7
had advanced once more to the highest point I think
8
in a hundred years perhaps. And given that situation
9
and given the impact that I think it's having, not
10
simply on our domestic affairs, but the very obvious
11
effect that that has on the ability of this country
12
to discharge its burden of responsibility as a world
13
leader.
14
I think the next president of the United
15
States, whoever he be, and indeed the current
16
president, Mr. Carter, will have my support in any
17
reasonable effort that he makes to that end.
18
I proposed on Thursday of this past week,
19
I proposed about 11.3 billion dollars in cuts and
20
some revenue adjustments that would total up to about
21
22 billion dollars in all in an effort to bring down
22
what otherwise was projected as a 25 or 30 billion
23
dollar deficit for the coming fiscal year.
24
And I think the situation today is simply
7
1
so critical that this president and undoubtedly his
2
successor is going to have to call on the American
3
people, and yes, on the Congress, unwilling as they
4
may be, to make the kind of sacrifices that are
5
needed to bring down that deficit.
6
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Crane?
7
PHILIP CRANE: Well, the point I think needs
8
to be stressed is that the Republican Party has
9
historically been committed to balancedbudgets, and
10
our Democratic friends have told us for years that
11
we don't have to wcrry about debt. They came up with
12
all kinds of convenient cliches like, "We only owed
13
it to ourselves." They're the party that has never
14
worried about inflation until most recently because
15
they said that a little bit of inflation was not
16
like a little bit of pregnancy; it didn't have to go
17
to term. They are the same party that has controlled
18
the Congress in my 49 years for all but four years,
19
and the Congress alone has the responsibility for
20
appropriating and spending the public money.
21
And so whether you have a Republican
22
president or you don't have a Republican president,
23
until the American people realize that it is Demo-
24
cratic controlled Congresses by overwhelming margins,
8
1
in fact, in two to one, three to one margins, it's
2
democratic Congresses that run up the national debt
3
from under 16 billion dollars the year I was born,
4
1930, to almost 1 trillion dollars in terms of our
5
conventional national debt by the end of this next
6
fiscal year.
7
Frankly I question seriously whether
8
President Carter even has an understanding of how
9
to get at a balanced budget when he's got that Congress
10
to cope with.
11
The only other thing I'd add is, John,
12
with all due respect, you know, we've got a lot of
13
fiscal conservatives now suddenly who ran for
14
Congress in 1978. But I would argue that those
15
fiscal conservatives are not being properly monitored,
16
and unless the voters pay attention to how much money
17
those members of Congress are spending, and this
18
means looking to guides like the National Taxpayer's
19
Union which provides an ample one, and your record
20
doesn't come up all that well, John--
21
JOHN ANDERSON: Well, Phil, if I can interject
22
at this point. I voted-- I don't know how you voted.
23
I voted in May of last year for the substitute budget
24
resolution that was submitted by the party in the
9
1
House that would have called for an 18 billion dollar
2
deficit instead of a 29 billion dollar deficit that
3
was proposed by the Democratic majority.
4
PHILIP CRANE: John, I've always voted for
5
balanced budgets. But my point is if you check the
6
National Taxpayer's Union's record, you'll find
7
that you voted for more than a 48 billion dollar
8
deficit in fiscal 1978.
9
JOHN ANDERSON: Well, I don't think the National
10
Taxpayer's Union, Phil, is the only record on which
11
we rely as to whether or not--
12
PHILIP CRANE: It tells you how much you voted
13
for fiscal--
14
GEORGE BUSH: Mr. Smith, I didn't pay for this
15
mike, but I'd like a little of the action, I'll tell
16
you.
17
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Bush?
18
GEORGE BUSH: The Congress, you mentioned
19
history. Let's face it. Democratic Congress, 44
20
out of the last 48 years. That's part of it.
21
We do need a balanced budget. But it's
22
not balance, per se, it's how you get there. I
23
disagree with John. Cutting back on social security
24
benefits.
10
1
JOHN ANDERSON: Now, wait a minute, George.
2
Wait a minute, wait a minute.
3
GEORGE BUSH: I'm sorry, I do not-- I will stay
4
with what I supported in '68.
5
I did not interrupt you.
6
JOHN ANDERSON: I did not propose to cut back
7
in social security benefits. That's not true. I
8
have to interrupt you when you do not tell the truth.
9
That is not true.
10
GEORGE BUSH: Let's be calm. Let's calm down.
11
Well, I saw what you said.
12
JOHN ANDERSON: That is not true.
13
GEORGE BUSH: I saw what you said.
14
JOHN ANDERSON: That is not true.
15
Mr. Moderator, if I may be recognized--
16
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Smith, I promise you you
17
will have an opportunity to rebut following Mr. Bush
18
to correct that statement.
19
JOHN ANDERSON: If I may be recognized then
20
following Mr. Bush to correct that statement?
21
MODERATOR SMITH: All right.
22
GEORGE BUSH: I voted to increase social security
23
benefits to have them keep pace with inflation in '68.
24
I do not want to see this be brought into balance
11
1
by treating lightly those that need it the most.
2
Veterans' benefits, you're going to have
3
to cut somewhere, but I'd be very, very careful
4
about cutting there much to the opposition of what
5
some have been saying. I have put forward specific
6
cuts that I would adhere to.
7
I do not favor-- you talk about "the
8
difference," a 50 cent a gallon gasoline tax that
9
would wipe out every working person in order to try
10
to get this budget in balance.
11
JOHN ANDERSON: Do you favor a 50 percent
12
reduction in social security taxes? Will you mention
13
that as part of your program?
14
GEORGE BUSH: I would say it when we get in
15
balance. And when-- yes, I would.
16
PHILIP CRANE: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Moderator--
17
MODERATOR SMITH: I think that Mr. Reagan has
18
not had a chance to say anything. Governor?
19
RONALD REAGAN: Thanks, Howard. I thought that
20
not having bought the mike myself I couldn't talk.
21
I have to go along with what Congressman
22
Crane said here and what George has said about the
23
number of years. This is the thing that I think
24
most people have forgotten.
12
1
It's very easy for the other party to
2
point to the man in the White House. And we've had
3
occasional Republican presidents and they-- it's easier
4
to get people upset at one man than it is at 500.
5
And so we forget that Congress is the one that's
6
been responsible for most of those programs.
7
But I also believe that when we mentioned
8
the debts under President Eisenhower, if you go back
9
about a half-- quarter of a century, he had one of
10
the two year periods in which there was a Republican
11
Congress. And if you look at that one two years, when
12
there was a Republican president and a Republican
13
Congress, there was virtually no deficit and no
14
inflation.
15
We tend to forget that the Democrats about
16
three or four decades ago started the idea that a
17
budget deficit and a little inflation was good for
18
us. That it was the alternative to recession and
19
unemployment. And there were many of us back there
20
for years ago out of the mashed potato circuit saying
21
that you couldn't control inflation; that you couldn't
22
keep it at one and a half or two or two and a half
23
percent; that one day, like radioactivity, it's
24
cumulative, it gets out of control. And it has gotten
13
1
out of control.
2
I don't believe in election year con-
3
versions. And, therefore, I don't have much faith in
4
the president. I know he's going to announce tomorrow
5
that he's going to-- he's asked all the department
6
heads to cut back on spending. But if they can cut
7
back in the spending in his proposed budget that
8
goes into effect next October, why was that spending
9
in the budget to begin with? Why did they put it in
10
there if it was so easily eliminated? And I think
11
that there are layers of fat in Government.
12
When we're talking about whether we have
13
to cut back on someone in need or not, all we have to
14
recognize is the combination of fraud and waste that
15
is so implicit in everything done in the Federal
16
Government, the administrative overhead. And that's
17
why I have proposed that you not balance the budget
18
by increasing taxes, as he's going to do.
19
And, John, I have to tell you that when
20
you talk about, well, we're going to raise one tax but
21
it's to cut another tax over here, the Government
22
always seems to come away with more money and the people
23
end up with less.
24
I, therefore, and I'll quit on this. I
think there are a number of programs, and I've been
14
1
saying it all over the country, that the Federal
2
Government has usurped, which it is attempting to
3
run, and which in a planned and orderly manner
4
should be transferred back to the states and local
5
communities with the tax sources to pay for them,
6
and we wouldn't find that much waste.
7
MODERATOR SMITH: Ladies and gentlemen, may I
8
beg you not to applaud or otherwise react, because
9
that has an influence and we're trying to let these
10
gentlemen settle it among themselves.
11
Congressman Anderson, you wanted to say
12
something.
13
JOHN ANDERSON: Thank you, Mr. Smith. I
14
certainly want to welcome Mr. Bush and his campaign
15
to the State of Illinois. And I want this to be a
16
warm and friendly evening together.
17
But I have to tell him that a half truth
18
is as dangerous and deceptive as a lie. And two of
19
the comments that were made this evening I learned
20
just two hours before coming to this platform are
21
being aired in last minute commercials in the last
22
four or five days of this campaign charging that
23
John Anderson is for reducing social security benefits.
24
What John Anderson said on Thursday in
15
1
Naperville, Illinois, of last week was that in
2
computing the cost of living adjustment for social
3
security beneficiaries, one of the-- you use the
4
Consumer Price Index. One of the components of that
5
Consumer Price Index is home ownership cost. Monthly
6
that, therefore, reflects the advancing median price
7
of cost of a new home in this country which is about
8
$73,000 at the present time. And home interest rates
9
in Illinois just went up to sixteen and a quarter
10
percent.
11
What I said was that people who are over
12
65 and retired are not buying new homes, they are
13
not paying sixteen and a quarter percent interest
14
on home mortgages, and, therefore, there ought to be
15
a change in the calculation that is made in the
16
Consumer Price Index.
17
GEORGE BUSH: Do they get less money or more
18
money?
19
JOHN ANDERSON: Well, let me complete my
20
statement, Mr. Bush, and then I will be very glad
21
to reply.
22
That miscalculation is costing the Federal
23
Treasury, which you profess to be so concerned about,
24
5 to 7 billion dollars a year. And a very respected
16
1
member of the House Budget Committee, Paul Simon of
2
Illinois, whom I talked with just the other day, he
3
has said that that figure is absolutely sound and
4
that you could save about three and a half billion
5
dollars a year if you revised that Consumer Price
6
Index.
7
Now there are many economists that have
8
been saying that for a long time. It doesn't mean
9
that social security benefits are going to be reduced.
10
It means that come July 1 they will be increased, but
11
they might not be increased by 13.2 percent. They
12
might be increased by something like 10 percent.
13
That is not a reduction.
14
MODERATOR SMITH: Congressman, we have no time
15
limits except my own judgment.
16
JOHN ANDERSON: Could I just reply to the 50
17
cent briefly?
18
MODERATOR SMITH: Briefly.
19
JOHN ANDERSON: Because that again is a half
20
truth when you say that we are going to wipe out the
21
working people of this country by assessing them a
22
50 cent tax.
23
I'm going to give them under that program,
24
and Governor Reagan, you have a right to be skeptical,
17
1
I appreciate your concern in that regard. But this
2
is one legislative package and it was introduced in
3
one bill. And what it provides is that there would
4
be a 50 percent reduction in social security taxes.
5
That would be the largest tax cut in history, 46
6
billion dollars, and the purpose-- the purpose is
7
to bring down the consumption of imported oil, because
8
we believe that when that median wage--
9
MODERATOR SMITH: I think you've made your
10
point, Congressman. I think Mr. Bush should have
11
an opportunity to talk.
12
RONALD REAGAN: You know, we may never get past
13
this first question.
14
MODERATOR SMITH: This happens to be the most
15
important question tonight.
16
GEORGE BUSH: The person who is already retired
17
is not paying the tax. He would get hurt by the
18
gasoline tax. This idea of taking it in, we're
19
going to raise a great more revenue and then pay it
20
out the other way doesn't work that way. And I am
21
against that 50 cent gasoline tax. I'm strongly
22
opposed to it, because it never works if we pay it
23
in one-- take it in one hand and pay it out.
24
I was on the Ways and Means Committee,
18
1
you've been in the Congress. We both know that it
2
doesn't work that way. And I am opposed to it, and
3
that's it period. That's the Anderson difference;
4
that's the Bush difference.
5
JOHN ANDERSON: I don't mind your opposition.
6
Just state the case correctly.
7
MODERATOR SMITH: Let's let Mr. Crane speak
8
now.
9
PHILIP CRANE: If I could address this question
10
of that 50 cent a gallon tax on gasoline, and my
11
understanding is that this is designed to try and
12
reduce social security taxes. What I think that
13
overlooks, John, is the fact that there are 10.2
14
million car owners age 65 and over. Now, those
15
people have qualified for those retirement benefits.
16
They paid into the social security program up to 65,
17
and if you're imposing that tax on them, what you're
18
asking those people to do is to, in effect, pay the
19
taxes for their own benefits.
20
JOHN ANDERSON: Well, I just would simply want
21
to repeat, and very quickly, we have accounted for
22
that by providing for a 4 percent increase. That
23
would enable the retired person to drive about a
24
hundred miles a week, 400 miles a month, and that
19
1
would come out of the revenues of the gasoline tax.
2
That would cost about 4 percent.
3
MODERATOR SMITH: All right, I think that's
4
clear now.
5
Governor Reagan?
6
RONALD REAGAN: Well, and I hope we get on to
7
the next carbon. I just have to say one thing.
8
We've been talking here about tax increases
9
of various kinds. I happen to believe there's a new
10
school of economics and it's a sound school. In
11
four times in this century we have done what I'm
12
going to suggest, and it has worked every time and
13
even the Government has gotten more revenue.
14
I think we have come to a point in this
15
country where it is Government that is the problem.
16
It's Government that is a drag on the economy, and the
17
time has come for us to have the courage to cut the
18
income tax rates across the board for everyone in
19
such a heavy manner that we increase incentive and,
20
as a result, increase productivity in this land and
21
get back to the thing that made this country great,
22
which is to be an industrial giant, able to out produce
23
anyone else. And we need the incentives to do it, and
24
I think the graduated tax coming up against inflation
20
1
is probably the thing that is making everyone in this
2
country poorer every year, not richer.
3
The standard of living in the United States
4
is going down four and a half percent a year.
5
MODERATOR SMITH: Gentlemen, if we cut taxes
6
the way you say and if we increase defense expenditures
7
and then balance the budget, something has to go.
8
And we have 26 million people in this richest country
9
in the world living below the poverty line.
10
Won't they be effected? Can we in all
11
conscience do that?
12
RONALD REAGAN: Howard, let me just, if I may
13
say something about this. The last president, and
14
I hate to have to admit he was a Democrat, the last
15
president who tried this across the board tax cut
16
was John F. Kennedy. His economic advisors, and some
17
of them are still advising the Democratic leaders,
18
his economic advisors told him that if he cut the
19
taxes across the board the Government would lose
20
89 billion dollars in revenue. The economists were
21
143 billion dollars wrong. He went ahead and cut the
22
taxes, the last time it's been done, and the
23
Government got 54 billion dollars more in revenue
24
at the lower rate than they'd been getting before,
21
1
and that makes the total of 143.
2
There's a funny thing about the dollars
3
out there in the people's hands that have a multiplier
4
effect, and it stimulates the economy far more than
5
Government spending.
6
This administration is still pledged-- and
7
maybe some of the gentlemen here, John, maybe you are,
8
or still believe in the idea that it is Government
9
spending and Government fine tuning that can cure
10
the problems and it is that that has caused the
11
problems.
12
MODERATOR SMITH: Congressman Anderson?
13
JOHN ANDERSON: No, I don't feel that way,
14
Governor. But very quickly, you see where I disagree
15
with you is that the revenue impact in the first year
16
of your proposal, which is the Roth-Kemp Proposal,
17
30 percent in three years. The revenue impact in
18
the first year, I believe, would be almost 20 billion
19
dollars. It would be about 36 or almost 50 billion
20
dollars in the second year, and 95 billion dollars
21
in the third year. What I'm worried about is you're
22
comparing the success of the Kennedy tax cut, which
23
was about 12 billion dollars in an economy that was
24
less than a quarter of the size of our economy today,
22
1
and at a time when the inflation rate was about 2
2
percent. And I just think that the conditions today
3
are so different.
4
I'm so worried about inflation that I
5
think in the long run, sure we want to cut taxes, but
6
the immediate impact, I think, would be to make that
7
inflation even more variable, because it would increase
8
the inbalance.
9
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Bush, would you-- Mr.
10
Bush wants to say something.
11
GEORGE BUSH: I'm interested, John. I thought
12
you were on that airplane espousing the Kemp-Roth
13
tax cut in 1978.
14
JOHN ANDERSON: In 1978--
15
GEORGE BUSH: Let me finish, please.
16
What I favor is, and as a goal, I agree
17
with Ron. As a goal I believe that that theory would
18
work. We're in a tough time today. What I want to
19
see is a tax cut divided between increasing savings--
20
say to a person trying to buy a home with interest
21
rates at their what, 15, 16 percent, put it into a
22
savings account, leave it there, but you begin to
23
form savings that immediately stimulates investment
24
in housing or to a business.
23
1
Go into the ghetto area. Take some job
2
training credits or rapid depreciation. Put your
3
plant there. Help people. And that 20 billion cut
4
of that nature is what I'm proposing. I think it will
5
stimulate investment. I think it won't risk the lag
6
effect that I believe would be on Kemp-Roth, and I
7
couldn't agree more. The thing I disagree with
8
John's recent plan is more and more taxes. We don't
9
want that. We need a 20 billion dollar tax cut, and
10
that's what I support.
11
MODERATOR SMITH: Gentlemen, I'm sorry that
12
we've run out of time just on this first question
13
about inflation and your differing views.
14
We have to talk about foreign affairs now,
15
and I would suggest to you as a first question, with
16
Russia taking over Afghanistan, with Pakistan too
17
intimidated even to accept arms from the United
18
States, Saudi Arabia keeping a distance from us,
19
we need friends in a Muslim country down in southern
20
Asia. And many people have suggested that the whole
21
Arab world would become friendly if we could secure
22
an agreement on Palestinian autonomy.
23
Now, what would you do as president to
24
bring about this change?
24
1
PHILIP CRANE: First of all I think with respect
2
to any resolution of the Middle East problem one should
3
respect the Israeli position. The Israeli position
4
is face-to-face negotiations between the parties
5
involved. Secondly, no prior conditions to sitting
6
down at the negotiating table. And thirdly, no
7
externally imposed solutions either by the United
8
States, the Soviet Union or any supra-national body
9
like the United Nations.
10
I think as far as the Palestinian problem
11
goes, it means observing the Israeli insistence on
12
no participation by the PLO. And I think rightly
13
so. The PLO does not speak for any identifiable
14
constituency. The PLO is engaged in acts of terrorism,
15
murders committed against women and children, and I
16
think the PLO to date still has not disavowed its
17
commitment to the extermination of the State of
18
Israel.
19
The Israelis have indicated that they
20
recognize that there are Palestinian problems within
21
Jordan and that Palestinians participating in any
22
Jordanian negotiating team would not meet the
23
resistence of the Israelis so long as they were not
24
PLO spokesmen. And I think further one must recognize
25
1
that the Palestinians by definition today are
2
Jordanian citizens. So, you know, even if Israel
3
pulled back behind the borders, the pre-'67 borders,
4
that there is still presumably a Palestinian problem
5
to be negotiated with King Hussein. And, therefore,
6
in my judgment the United States must maintain an
7
evenhanded and neutral posture encouraging both
8
sides to participate in negotiations but that in no
9
way, in my judgment, involves any recognition of
10
the PLO.
11
MODERATOR SMITH: Governor Reagan, by May the
12
20th they're supposed to settle this problem with
13
Egypt and Israel. They are not close to it now.
14
What would you suggest?
15
RONALD REAGAN: Well, I have to go along with
16
what Phil said there. The Israelis, I think, for many
17
years, the Palestinian problem has been imposed as
18
if it is-- the refugees are all from Israel and,
19
therefore, they're Israel's problem.
20
Palestine was never a country. It was
21
a territory, an area, and it was a British mandate.
22
And it was the British Government that, simply by
23
signing a paper, created the Kingdom of Jordan which
24
is 80 percent of what used to be Palestine. The
26
1
Israelis have less than 20 percent of what was
2
Palestine. The Palestinian refugee problem, it seems
3
to me then, is an 80 percent 20 percent problem of
4
Jordan and Israel. But I think they could also-- you
5
could extend it to the other Arab nations.
6
I go along with this, that I think that
7
there's been too much effort on the part of this
8
administration to mandate terms in the settlement
9
there. I think that we should stand by ready to help
10
in any way we can recognizing this also.
11
In Israel we have a moral obligation that
12
we assumed and we should never forget, the State of
13
Israel and to guarantee its existence. But it is not
14
a one way street in which we are simply being
15
generous. Israel is the only stable democratic
16
government left in the Middle East with a combat
17
trained and indeed combat experienced military as
18
a deterrent to further aggression on the part of the
19
Soviet Union. If they weren't there paying their
20
way to us in this alliance between the two of us,
21
we'd have to be there.
22
And I agree also that the PLO is one of
23
the contributing problems to all of this. No one
24
elected the PLO, and I don't believe that anyone
27
1
should be asked to negotiate looking down the barrel
2
of a terrorist gun.
3
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Bush, let me add this to
4
that same question before you speak. Three presidents,
5
two of them Republicans, have now regarded Israeli
6
settlements in occupied Arab territories to be illegal
7
and have opposed them. Is that a major obstacle to
8
a settlement? How do you feel about those settlements?
9
GEORGE BUSH: I don't think they should go
10
forward with more settlements, but I don't think
11
they should pull back off all settlements. A lot of
12
those settlements have very legitimate security of
13
provisions with them.
14
I support the Begin-Sadat agreement. I
15
think before there should be any discussion with PLO
16
they must revise the '68 Convention that equated
17
Zionism with illegality and Israel as the agent of
18
Zionism. This area, having wrestled with that
19
problem at the United Nations, did not lend itself
20
to a comprehensive settlement which would, in my
21
view, bring the Soviets back into the equation. I
22
think this administration was absolutely outrageous
23
what they did in terms of this U. N. resolution. It
24
undermined what confidence Israel had left, and it
28
1
made the Arabs and everybody else think that this
2
administration was absolutely ridiculous in the
3
process.
4
And so I would favor going forward as
5
best you can. You mentioned the time limit with the
6
Begin-Sadat agreement, recognizing you're not going
7
to impose a settlement, and that the strategic and
8
moral commitment to Israel must be kept. And there's
9
nothing in that that precludes improvement of
10
relations with some of these shiekdoms or with
11
Jordan. That's the folly of some of the arqument
12
that is has to be one way.
13
And lastly, do not trade off even
14
inferentially the security of an ally for hoped for
15
economic gain. Our problem is credibility in foreign
16
affairs, and we must not add further to our problem.
17
JOHN ANDERSON: Mr. Smith, it's nice that
18
we've finally found something on which we all seem
19
to agree. I don't think that there's much in what
20
has been said with which I would disagree, if anything.
21
I would make the further point that I.
22
think the mistake that the administration has made,
23
and it's already been alluded to, is that when they
24
do the kind of thing that occurred a week ago Saturday
29
1
in the United Nations, when they vote for a resolution
2
condemning Israel, and, of course, folding in the
3
Jerusalem question with the whole West Bank Gaza
4
District, that's a separable question. I've talked
5
many times about Mr. Henry Kissinger. He makes the
6
point and, I think, quite correctly, that that is
7
going to be the most difficult problem of all to
8
solve, and it certainly ought not to be just folded
9
in as that resolution did with the whole question
10
of the West Bank and the Gaza District.
11
The other point that I would make is that
12
when the administration undertakes in public to
13
condemn the Israelis rather than to use the channels
14
of quiet diplomacy to register any dissent that we
15
may have, and we may dissent. There isn't everything
16
that the Israeli Government does that we're going to
17
agree with. But I'm told in my talks with leaders
18
in that country that when we make a public declaration
19
such as that, that unites Israel in an absolutely
20
inflexible position. Then even the Labor Party,
21
which has disagreed with the settlement policy of
22
the Begin Government, finds itself locked in in a
23
position of national solidarity to stand against the
24
enemies of Israel and the world.
30
1
So I think the administration has got to
2
learn the bitter lesson that hopefully that they
3
now have absorbed that we do this by quiet, patient
4
diplomacy. And I think as far as the whole Middle
5
East settlement is concerned to establish arbitrary
6
deadlines, I don't believe that policy is going to
7
work.
8
MODERATOR SMITH: Let's get away from this
9
area of agreement as fast as we possibly can.
10
In Iran we've had new disappointment about
11
the hostages.
12
Mr. Reagan, in South Carolina you indicated
13
you thought that President Carter has handled the
14
Iranian situation badly. Senator Goldwater on
15
television the night after that, I think, disagreed
16
with you. He said he's thought Carter had done it
17
very well. You said that we should take, in South
18
Carolina, appropriate action. Does that possibly
19
mean force that might cost the lives of the hostages
20
or force Iran into the arms of the Russians?
21
RONALD RAAGAN: No, Howard, and none of us
22
here and none who have been candidates on our side,
23
we've all kind of observed a kind of a rule of not
24
making a suggestion as to what actually should be done
31
1
for fear we might endanger the hostages further or
2
that we might unwittingly touch upon something that
3
may be being negotiated.
4
I have felt free, however, after we're
5
going into the fifth month of their captivity and
6
we've been humiliated throughout the world by this
7
rag tag mob, that it is-- there's no objection to
8
criticizing what we think has been done. Now, every-
9
thing that's been done so far has been through the
10
diplomatic channels, the United Nations and all of
11
this. And they have, in turn, the other-- the captors
12
have been using the salami tactic on us. As soon as
13
we suggest that we would agree to something such as
14
this U. N. Commission if the hostages are released,
15
and then the understanding is given to us that, well,
16
if they set up that Commission, the hostages come
17
home and then the Commission will go forth with its
18
work. But, oh, no, that's changed and then another
19
demand.
20
As long as they can continue to get another
21
slice of that salami from us, as long as this
22
administration negotiates, and when refused on one
23
point, or they turn their backs on one point on the
24
other side, we're willing to negotiate the next
32
1
demand that they make, then it's to their advantage
2
to hang onto those hostages.
3
I believe, and what I said in South
4
Carolina was, that in the first 48 to 72 hours you
5
do all the things diplomatically, and I think they
6
would include everything the president has done so
7
far over all these months, all the diplomatic channels.
8
And if there is no way diplomatically to get release
9
of the hostages, then, and I will admit that only
10
a president has the knowledge of the options that are
11
open to him when you speak of action, so none of us
12
have the information that you would have in that
13
position. But then privately, not publically,
14
privately you communicate with the captors once you've
15
failed diplomatically and you tell them that as of
16
a date certain those hostages will be turned over to
17
a neutral country or an action will be taken that
18
they will find decidedly unpleasant. That does not
19
necessarily mean force of arms. But whatever you've
20
decided will be the most unpleasant for them, you
21
say to them that will happen as of that date. And
22
when you let it go on this long, this is a failure
23
of foreign policy and a failure of our Government
24
to carry out its responsibility to its own citizens.
33
1
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Bush, some people have the
2
impression that by waiting patiently we've gained
3
some allies inside Iran who are beginning to articulate
4
themselves like the new president, Bani-Sadr, and
5
the foreign minister. Do you believe that?
6
GEORGE BUSH: No, I don't. And I believe that
7
you hear some-- you see some division. But frankly
8
I'm getting tired of it. The American people have
9
had it with this thing. There are more people coming
10
in now, apparently there's a higher level of students
11
from Iran in this country than there were when this
12
all started. There's spare parts we're still shipping
13
to Iran, and I've supported the president. And I
14
do believe the president, in my experience in foreign
15
affairs, sometimes has much more information.
16
But he hasn't leveled with us. I felt
17
when that Commission went there that the fix was on.
18
The hostages are coming out. And yet we haven't
19
heard a word as to what happened. I'm inclined to
20
feel that the time has come to tighten up economically,
21
to shut down that embassy, and to really start looking
22
like we're serious about this.
23
We've tried conciliation for a long, long
24
time. I'm not sure I agree with you, Ron, on drawing
34
1
the line in the sand on the date certain. But there
2
are things the United States can do and should be
3
doing. And I think we have been awfully patient in
4
the country, and I believe we ought to start taking
5
some of these actions, including increasing strong
6
economic pressure on Iran.
7
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Crane?
8
PHILIP CRANE: First of all, the president,
9
Howard, has to assume total responsibility, it seems
10
to me, for those people being held hostage in the
11
first place, and that's a point that I think all of
12
us can agree upon and should be driven home forcefully.
13
He had better than six months warning, the details
14
spelled out to him as to exactly what was going to
15
happen over there as a result of admitting the Shah
16
into this country. And repeated warnings. So it
17
wasn't something that should have caught him by
18
surprise.
19
The first question then is why were those
20
people there, they never should have been there, and
21
the president is the one that must assume personal
22
and total responsibility for our people being held
23
hostage.
24
Having said that I have abstained from
35
1
second guessing him in a public way, but I would
2
simply remind everyone of a period in recent history
3
when we had a man in the White House who wasn't of
4
our party, had that sign on his desk that said, "The
5
buck stops here." And I'm talking about Harry Truman.
6
And when you think about things that might have been
7
done, one thing I think all of us would concede,
8
Democrats and Republicans alike, is Harry Truman
9
didn't have trouble making decisions. And forceful
10
decisions, and often times unpopular decisions.
11
Can you honestly imagine if Harry Truman
12
had been in the White House during this period that
13
we would be at this impasse today? So obviously
14
there are better ways.
15
MODERATOR SMITH: Mr. Anderson, every president
16
would like to begin his career as president writing
17
on a fresh page, but he's forced, as Woodrow Wilson
18
says, to write between the lines of what was there
19
before him written by the last president. So we
20
have to assume that the situation is where it is now,
21
what would you do about it?
22
JOHN ANDERSON: You're referring still to the
23
situation in Iran. Well, of course there will be
24
some developments conceivably starting tomorrow in
36
1
those elections for the parliament, and there will
2
unfold perhaps, whether or not Bani-Sadr who is
3
supposed to be a relative moderate, who is supposed
4
to be interested in the settlement of this problem,
5
can best the clerics, the so-called Islamic
6
Republican-- I'm a little bit embarrassed that that
7
happens to be the name of the party, but I guess it
8
is. The Islamic Republican Party to whom the
9
clerics belong, or to which the clerics belong, and
10
whether or not he can sort out of the chaos and all
11
of these competing power centers, you have the
12
militants who are holding the embassy, you have the
13
Ayatollah Beheshti (phonetic) and the revolutionary
14
tribunal, then you have Bani-Sadr.
15
And I feel pretty much as Mr. Crane said
16
a moment ago that this has been a test, I think, of
17
restraint, not only on the part of the president,
18
but of presidential candidates. And when you have
19
no really solid clear alternative it's very difficult
20
to be terribly critical, except that I have felt that
21
the timetable of the administration has been somewhat
22
leisurely. A whole month went by, for example, the
23
4th of November the hostages were seized, and it
24
wasn't until the 4th of December that that unanimous
37
1
resolution condemning the seizure was finally adopted
2
in the Security Council of the United Nations. And
3
I do believe that some more expedition could have
4
been practiced on the part of the administration.
5
But I do believe that we have to continue
6
to show some restraint. I don't know the military
7
option myself that would be available to guarantee
8
the safe rescue of those hostages. But it may be
9
that we can diplomatically isolate them as time goes
10
on.
11
MODERATOR SMITH: Let's get away from this
12
agreement. We're too close to agreement.
13
PHILIP CRANE: John-- well, could I just
14
inject just one thing here?
15
I think something, John, that everyone
16
has got to realize is that there is the possibility
17
that no one is going to come out of this alive anyway.
18
And there's where I think the man who is President
19
of the United States and Commander in Chief has to
20
be prepared to make, at some point, some very strong
21
decisions and be prepared to take the heat for it.
22
Because, you know, all of this anguish and this torment
23
and the, at least, psychological torture being
24
inflicted on those people, and for all we know,
38
1
physical torture, too. They haven't even let the
2
Red Cross come in and actually see each and every
3
one of those 50 hostages.
4
But that, to me, is an ingredient of
5
leadership, and I'm not going to spell out what the
6
particulars are. All I'm saying is that at some
7
point a President of the United States has to face
8
up to the same kind of hard decision that, say,
9
General Eisenhower made when he was planning the
10
invasion of Normandy.
11
Now, you know, it's not a pleasant thing.
12
Anyone who has been in combat will vouchsafe for the
13
fact it's not a pleasant decision to make. But I
14
think the president has demonstrated no policy,
15
vacillation, weakness, indecision, and it's been
16
compounded by his seeming capitulation to conditions
17
that we said were totally inacceptable. Even that
18
U. N. Commission, totally unacceptable. There's
19
no basis for any linkage whatsoever between the
20
Shah, the Shah's regime, our identification with the
21
Shah and their holding those people hostage. They
22
are outlaws by definition in the whole community of
23
nations.
24
RONALD REAGAN: Howard, could I just add one
39
1
thing here to what has been said?
2
Has anyone stopped to think that the
3
policies of this administration in this situation
4
have endangered Americans wherever they may be in
5
the world? There isn't an embassy any longer that
6
is safe when once upon a time an embassy could stand
7
there with a war going on around it and it was
8
sovereign territory of another nation and wouldn't
9
be touched.
10
But they are all endangered now as they
11
see this country unable to cope with this kind of a
12
problem. And I would add one thing to what Phil
13
has said about the president's responsibility. It
14
began even earlier than the capture. It began when
15
he pulled the rug out from under our ally of 30-some
16
odd years standing, Iran, the Iranian Government.
17
All he had to do was stand up and stand beside the
18
Shah's Government and there wouldn't have been a
19
successful revolution. That we betrayed an ally as
20
we betrayed Taiwan, as we betrayed others.
21
MODERATOR SMITH: I want to see if I can stir
22
up some more dissent. Mr. Anderson, you opposed
23
some plans to beef up defense, especially around the
24
Persian Gulf, saying, "There aren't many Americans
40
1
who want our young to die defending oil that we could
2
learn to live without."
3
Well, if the oil which we've not yet
4
learned to live without were cut off, it is our allies,
5
Japan and West Europe, who suffer most.
6
John Roach, the columnist, called your
7
statement, "vintage isolationism and America
8
firstism." What do you--
9
JOHN ANDERSON: Not at all, not at all. Mr.
10
Roach is wrong. Because what I have criticized,
11
Mr. Smith, is the unilateralism of the administration's
12
approach to this problem. I feel that Mr. Carter was
13
so anxious to enhance his quagging aura of leadership
14
that what he did on the 23rd of January was to rush
15
into the House of Representatives and deliver a
16
State of the Union message in which he unilaterally
17
proclaimed the doctrine, the so-called Carter
18
Doctrine, in which he said we would defend by
19
military force, if necessary, this vital interest.
20
And then one week later he met with news editors
21
and admitted that, of course, we can't do this without
22
the cooperation of our friends and allies.
23
What he should have done, and where he
24
made his fundamental error, he should have been
41
1
patiently, carefully, quietly, diplomatically
2
stitching together the fabric of western unity,
3
telling the Japanese, you import 75 percent of your
4
oil from that region; telling the West Germans
5
and the French, you get more than 60 percent of
6
your oil from that region. Join us in designing
7
a set of collective security measures by which we
8
will assert the vital interests of the west.
9
I'm not an isolationist. I'm not a
10
neoisolationist. But I do not want to see the
11
United States simply become the protector of the
12
Persian Gulf when other nations with equally vital
13
interest in that area ought to be willing to
14
cooperate with us. And that's where I think Mr.
15
Carter has been wrong on this particular occasion.
16
And I also have to disagree with my
17
friend on my right who says that we made a fundamental
18
mistake when we didn't stand tall in the saddle and
19
defend the Shah of Iran as the protector of the
20
Persian Gulf. I think we made a fundamental error
21
back in 1970 when we submitted to his megalomania
22
and said that we were going to sell them 18 to 20
23
billion dollars worth of arms and make him the
24
protector, and look what happened.
42
1
We cannot base a solid foreign policy
2
of this Government on propping up the kind of
3
autocratic regimes that do not enjoy the popular
4
support of their people. We do. We are building
5
a foreign policy upon shifting sands.
6
PHILIP CRANE: Would you yield for a question
7
on that point?
8
JOHN ANDERSON: of course.
9
PHILIP CRANE: Would you have supported General
10
Zia?
11
JOHN ANDERSON: General Zia?
12
PHILIP CRANE: Right, in Pakistan.
13
JOHN ANDERSON: To what extent?
14
PHILIP CRANE: Well, I mean would you have
15
given him the military and economic assistance as
16
the president proposed?
17
JOHN ANDERSON: I would certainly have not
18
suffered the humiliation I hope that this administration
19
has suffered.
20
PHILIP CRANE: Well, I know that. I mean,
21.
John, the question-- the question I asked you is
22
did you or did you not favor providing assistance
23
to Pakistan?
24
JOHN ANDERSON: Short term.
43
1
PHILIP CRANE: Short term, all right.
2
JOHN ANDERSON: Short term, not a long term
3
military relationship as we had with the Shah.
4
PHILIP CRANE: The question I want to ask is,
5
there is no evidence whatsoever that President Zia's
6
record on human rights is any better than the Shah's
7
was. And even the Washington Post, which no one
8
can accuse of being a conservative journal, engaged
9
in a discussion of what to do over there in that
10
region. And the president, of course, had recommended
11
giving all kinds of aid to Pakistan, and the Indians
12
were upset over that. And the bottom line, and the
13
Washington Post editorial was we should recognize
14
President Zia for what he is, the man who runs
15
Pakistan. And just because the decision is not an
16
easy and clear cut one to make, we should nevertheless
17
give the aid to Pakistan.
18
Now, I happen to rarely agree with the
19
editorial positions of the Washington Post, but
20
there's one time they spoke a truth. Now, that same
21
truth with respect to General Zia, they should have
22
articulated about the Shah. Because the fact of the
23
matter is, this administration scuttled the Shah's
24
Government. They're the ones that sent General Heiser
44
1
over there to tell the generals not to back him up
2
when he had internal problems. And, you know, the
3
Ayatollah Shariat-Madari, who is Khomeini's com-
4
petitor, said in a blistering sermon a couple of
5
months ago conditions in Iran today are no better
6
than they were under the Shah. That may be for
7
Iranians. I tell you for the rest of the world
8
conditions are infinitely worse. We've got the
9
potential threat, because of the foolishness of this
10
administration, of a nuclear confrontation over
11
there because of their own actions and the perversity
12
of all of this is the president enjoys a wave of
13
popularity because of it.
14
MODERATOR SMITH: All right. We've got to
15
move away from foreign affairs.
16
Please don't applaud. Before we move
17
away from foreign affairs, Mr. Bush wants to say
18
something and Governor Reagan wants to say something.
19
Mr. Bush?
20
GEORGE BUSH: Well, in my view, when you see
21
the world as it is and not as you wish it were, you
22
have to sometimes make tough choices. You're not
23
dealing with perfection on human rights or no human
24
rights at all. And I will not engage in a revisionistic
45
1
view of the Shah of Iran. Yes, there was some
2
brutality. But is human rights better off today?
3
America held hostage, revolutionary tribunals with
4
no legal procedures at all, lining up people and
5
shooting them? And you have to consider your human
6
rights. I would have a foreign policy that was
7
moral and steeped in the tradition of human rights.
8
But I also would consider the strategic interests
9
of the United States.
10
And I'm sick and tired of hearing us
11
apologize for people that we've supported around
12
the world. Let's look at the whole record. And,
13
yes, there was some brutality. But at least there
14
was some adherence to international law.
15
MODERATOR SMITH: All right. Governor?
16
RONALD REAGAN: It's along this same line. I
17
feel that I have to defend myself against appearing
18
as if I am one who would support any kind of monster
19
because of my inordinate fear of communism, which
20
the president told us we got rid of in Notre Dame
21
University in his first five months in office.
22
I was in Iran less than two years ago.
23
There's been a great deal of demagoguery about that
24
regime. But this man, whatever faults we may find
46
1
in their treatment of criminals or their treatment
2
of dissidents or whatever, is typical perhaps of
3
the whole area and many countries in the world. It
4
would not meet our test of human rights.
5
But at the same time, this man was trying
6
to lift his people up to the level that we enjoy.
7
Those women today are not allowed to be educated.
8
They're back in the 15th century. They weren't
9
allowed to be educated in Iran until he came in.
10
When I was there, young women were in the university
11
learning to be doctors and lawyers, studying for the
12
professions. He had created a land reform program,
13
and the first land that he put into it was his own
14
personal land holdings to be divided up among the
15
peasants in farms. Maybe the reason he's in trouble
16
with the Mullas was because they were the next biggest
17
landholders, and he took their land and gave it away
18
to the individual farmers, and they all got mad.
19
But I saw the low cost housing that he
20
was building. I saw the streets teeming with auto-
21
mobiles and traffic, and he was really-- maybe he
22
moved too fast. Maybe that was one of his problems.
23
But, believe me, this was a progressive
24
regime. And the funny thing is, every president back
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1
to Harry Truman, every one of them, Democrat and
2
Republican and up to and including Jimmy Carter,
3
every one of them is on record with a statement
4
endorsing the humanitarianism of the Shah's regime
5
and what they found there that was desirable and
6
acceptable and that we could approve of, and that
7
was-- Jimmy Carter did it in a New Year's toast,
8
probably with ginger ale, but said the most
9
grandiloquent things about it. But a few months
10
later was doing just what Phil Crane said, scuttling
11
that administration.
12
Now, we send a human rights group over
13
there from the United Nations, a Commission, and
14
one representative from Algeria, a representative
15
from Libya. Don't tell me that they're observing
16
human rights. My complaint with the hypocrisy of
17
this administration is simply this, that we seem only
18
able to find human rights violations among our allies.
19
At the same time that we want to cozy up to and hug
20
and kiss, as he did Brezhnev, the Soviet Union where
21
there are no human rights existing at all. If we're
22
going to really mean it about human rights, then let's
23
thumb our nose at the Soviet Union and stop sending
24
them all that technology and all the things that we're