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OFFICE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY PARISH OF ORLEANS
RACKETS DIVISION
DATE
ACTION TAKEN
A.D.A.
Dean Andrews
0 Eximplated material from
both Andrema files -fn
further evaluation
ANDREWS, DEAN
CHECK LIST FOR CLOSING FILES
Closed by
1. Closed to All Defendants.
( )
2. Closed in General Docket Book (Clerk's Office) (
)
Date
3. Index Card Closed.
( )
To:Corcher
Re: Deam andrews
MEMORANDUM
TO:
LOUIE IVON, Chief Investigater
FROM:
GARY SANDERS, Investigator
SUBJECT:
DEAN ANDREWS
RE:
INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD ROLFE
January 11, 1968
627 Dumaine St.
New Orleans, La.
525-0184
MR. RICHARD ROLFE and his wife JUNE ROLFE were interviewed on
January 11, 1968, at the office of his business establishment at
627 Dumaine St. Miss Jody Duek attended this interview and took
notes from which this report is written.
RICHARD ROLFE mentioned during the interview that a short time
ago he had been walking down the street with a client and had
met DEAN ANDREWS, who was walking with a "Quanter Girl, sarape,
sandals, the whole bit," and they had talked briefly. He had
said to DEAN that he should drop by ROLFE'S office some day and
they could talk.
DEAN ANDREWS had never previously been to ROLFE'S office. But
a few days later he came in, and said "Come on baby, let's make
some money". ROLFE replied that that would be fine with him,
and asked for an explanation. DEAN said that he wondered if
he built a sound studio, to be used to tape TV shows etc., kind
of a recording studio here in the city and rent the décilities
out, would it go over well. ROLFE said it could definitely have
metit, especially for the politicians, who could record their
speeches for television without their opposition knowing what
they were going to say before they said it. ROLFE said it would
definitely go over well.
ROLFE then said that although it would surely go over well, it
would cost a lot of money, at least a quarter of a million
dollars.
ANDREWS immediately replied that it would be exactly $300,000.00
DICK ROLFE then said that that was fine, but since neither of
them had that kind of money, they might as well forget it.
DEAN ANDREWS then said "I can get the equipment here, all I have
to do is make a phone call, I'll have open credit, I can pay off
on any terms, I have to give up 10-15% of the action and I can
get it."
ROLFE said he didn't want to be nosy but would like to know just
who was going to do this for DEAN.
DEAN'S direct quote via ROLFE was: "Look, BOBBY SARNOFF premised
me those facilities, and he'd better pay off, baby.
Gary M. Sanders
GMS:jld
PARISH OF ORLEANS
The State of Louisiana
~~~
SS.
CRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT FOR THE PARISH OF ORLEANS
ROBERT E. LEE,
Assistant District Attorney for the Parish of Orleans, who in
the name and by the authority of the said State, prosecutes, in this behalf, in proper person comes into
the Criminal District Court for the Parish of Orleans, in the Parish of Orleans, and gives the said
Court here to understand and be informed that one
DEAM A. ANDREWS, JR.
late of the Parish of Orleans, on the twenty-eighth day of
June
in the year
of our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and sixty-seven with force and arms in the Parish
of Orleans aforesaid, and within the jurisdiction of the Criminal District Court for the Parish of
Orleans, appeared as a witness before the Grand Jury of the Parish of Orleans
and committed perjury by testifying as follows:
Question by James I.. Aloock, Assistant District Attorney
0. Doan, do you know the real clay *****
A. the man * believe is Gene Davis, and 12 you ask him he'll call no
a crocossek of lies,
******
0. Now what leads you to believe that this is Clay Bortrand?
A. Because I believe it. 2 am the only one who has to account for myself.
O. What basis do you have?
A. Helen Cert - back in the 50's, at the tag wedding reception I
was telling you all about, introduced me to Davis as Clay Bortrand.
0. And this was the man who was introduced to you as Clay Bertrand?
A. Right.
Q. Have you talked to this man on the phone recently?
A. I talk to him nivent every day. I have known his a Long time.
Q. Your testimony now La that this is the man who sent clients to your
office? Talked to you on behalf of homosemiale?
A. This is the man who sent elients to my office, constimes they were
Eags sometimes they waren't.
0. Is this the wan who called you in the hospital and asked you to
represent Lee Harvey Oswald?
A. This Lo the man I believe called me. 24 believe - what you all believe
Le your affair.
Question by Grand Surer
Q. In your mind, this Le Clay Bortrand? The man who called you
down through the years representing homosexuale?
A. No, he didn't de it that way. That's the way 3 said it.
Put Le into the Warren Comission Report - everybody picks is
up from there and good with it. 2 never said it other than in
the Warren Report.
Question by Richard V. Burnes, Assistant District Attorney
Q. 246 asked you AS you ever heard from Clay Bertrend after the time
you were called about representing Lee Owald in the assessination
and the answer was 3 ein't seen ner heard of him since.
A. Not from Clay Bertrand cause I call him Gono Davis.
You are right, I told you that, and I sin't seen hide nor hair
a his ner heard from Clay Bortrand ** other than onetime I
recember when = was with Rogin up there, 2 call his Gene, #12
was introduced to the man one time.
Q. Did this sen change appearance and change personality &th the
name change?
A. No.
Q. So still Looked the case?
A. No, he has changed, he is Eat like me, he's aged. Time has
gone by, this has been 10 *****
Which testimeny and statements enumerated above the said
DEAN A. ANDREWS, JR. then and there well knew were false and unture
and which were related to matters material to the issue and question
under investigation, to-wit: a conspiracy to nurder JOHN F. KENNEDY,
contrary to the form of the Statute of the State of Louisiana in such case made and provided and
against the peace and dignity of the same.
Assistant District Attorney for the Parish of Orleans
MEMORANDUM
April 13, 1967
TO:
JIM GARRISON, DISTRICT ATTORNEY
FROM:
SGT. TOM DUFFY, INVESTIGATOR
RE:
MISS E. H. SPRINGER - INTERVIEW OF
(FORMER SECRETARY OF DEAN ANDREWS)
515 HENRY CLAY AVENUE, NEW ORLEANS, LA.
INTERVIEWED BY: SGT. DUFFY, SGT. SEDGEBEER and
OFFICER NAVARRE
Q. When were you first employed by- -
A. Well, I never was really employed by Dean. This is the way
it happened: I needed some legal work. There were a few of
us who had a business - we went into a business - and the
boys that were working for us wouldn't quit after they had
finally depleted all the funds and everything. They were
still running around and charging things to this company's
name, so I needed legal advice and someone recommended
Mr. ANDREWS. So I went to Mr. ANDREWS and told him I didn't
have any more money because we were tired of supporting this,
so he immediately that night put notices in the paper termin-
ating these boys andmen and dissolved the company and every-
thing else to get us out of the trouble.
Q. When was this now, approximately? What year?
A. That had to be in the latter part of '61.
Q. In '61?
A. Uh huh.
Q. How did you come to go to work for Mr. ANDREWS?
A. Not long after that, I wasn't working at the time after
this business deal fell through and my father was very sick
and so I stayed home with my mother to take care of him.
So DEAN with some other people opened a business out on
Veterans Highway, an automobile business. He asked me if
I would come up and help him set up some books for him or
something, so I stayed with him out there.
Q. And that was in '61?
A. No, that was in '62. They started in '62. They had started
in '62.
-1-
Q. What kind of business was it?
A. What do you mean?
Q. Did they have a service station involved?
A. They had a gas pump. No, they didn't have a service station.
Q. Just a gas pump?
A. Yes.
Q.
T, They sold gas to the public or just. . ?
A. No, just for cab drivers. What he was doing, he was working
for Parish Cab if you all remember that. He was the attorney
for that and they were going bankrupt or something so DEAN
took over the cab company, and at the same time he opened
this place right on Veterans right back of the Airline. It
used to be a nightclub or something, and I think it lasted
less than a year. He couldn't get parts and like that, and
each company like the Dodge and the Buick, wouldn't sell you
the parts you wanted to make repairs, so he finally decided
to file bankruptcy. The name of it was Automotive Unlimited.
Q. Automotive Unlimited?
A. Uh huh. So I stayed with him and I went down with him to
help him file for bankruptcy. The day we were filing bank-
ruptcy the day before or the day after - my father died,
and I was in no position then, and I didn't feeling like
going to get a job or anything, and he says why don't you
come down to the office with me. You can take accounts, be-
cause I did work several little accounts, you know. And he
said, you can start getting accounts down there and you can
answer the phone and things like that for me.
Q. Where was this office at?
A. That was in the Maison Blanche Building.
Q. Maison Blanche Building.
A. So I stayed there until all of my money ran out and I had to
get out and get a job where I was paid.
Q. Now, at this time he was alone in the business?
A. What do you mean?
Q. The only attorney?
A. Oh no, no other.
Q. No other attorney? How long did you stay there?
-2-
A. I stayed there until December of '64. I think we were from
February of '63 until - wait now, I'm not good on years. My
father died - Yeah, because Automotive Unlimited opened in
February of '62 or something like in May or February, I
don't remember, and then it was one year later. My father
died on February 1st, so that would have been '63.
Q. Yes Ma'm.
A.
'63.
Q. That's pretty good covereage on that now. Do you remember
the President's death? November 22nd?
A. Yes. We had television on, so I immediately called DEAN who
was in the Hotel Dieu at the time. He was in there about 2
weeks before I believe.
Q. You had television in the office?
A. I was in the office next door. I ate lunch in an office in
the building.
Q. And you called DEAN?
A. I called DEAN and I went all around on the floor telling them.
Q. How long was Mr. ANDREWS sick this time? Approximately.
A. It was several weeks. I think he was in the hospital 3 or 4
weeks. Now, I'm not sure, but I'll tell you, I kept a log -
a telephone log - in the office and they're saved. You know
what I mean? So it might tell
Q. Do you still - do you have it here, or where?
A. Oh no, in DEAN's office.
Q. You kept it there? If he saved it, it would be good?
A. Well, I saved them when I was there. They were put up in
the library, and I don't think he would discard them or
anything like that.
Q. It's a log of all telephone calls?
A
A log. And I even marked in there of the President's death.
That was one of the biggest shocks
Q. The next day was a Saturday, after the President's death, and
DEAN was supposed to have called you and he asked you for a
file.
A. He told me that he had a telephone call, and I think with it,
I think of him going to Texas to represent OSWALD.
Q. He didn't ask you for certain files? To see if he had
certain files in his office?
-3-
A
What kind of files?
Q. Files on clients.
A. Inaudible.
2. Now, let me aks you something Miss SPRINGER, did you keep
his files and all, or make files on people who came to his
office?
A. I tried. On some I did, yes.
Q. Did he have any files on OSWALD?
A. No. That we went through. Many a time I went through that
with the FBI. You see, all these characters - - DEAN being a
criminal lawyer, he had some characters coming to the office,
byt they never came until after 5:00 o'clock. Now OSWALD -
he told me much longer after the President's death he tried
to make me remember a couple with a baby. They came in there.
The girl had long stringy hair hanging down here back, and
he said they were there when I was leaving. He said that
was OSWALD, and that he had come for his naturalization -
discharge - to have his discharge dishonorable discharge -
if there was any way to fix it. Now that was what DEAN told
me.
Q. Well, he never did come there when you were there?
A. No.
Q. Did Mr. ANDREWS have an investigator at this time?
A. Yes, an ex-Sergeant - SERGEANT DAVIS. Yes, I think that's
what you would call him. An investigator. He worked with
DEAN and.
Q. They were pretty close?
A. Yes, I would imagine you could call them "pretty close".
Q. I mean, really a confidential.
...
A. Yes.. Well Sarge was more or less a - I don't know how you'd
say it. A good old OX. He would do anything for DEAN, run
and get his coffee. I mean, he was discharged from the
service, and he just wanted something to do. He couldn't
do hard work. He has a very bad heart.
Q. If DEAN would have an important case and it needed investi-
gating, DAVIS would do it?
A. Yes, DAVIS would do it.
Q. No other investigator would come in and do any work?
A.
I never did know.
-4-
Q. Now, getting back to the phone call that you received from
DEAN in the hospital Saturday, when was the next time that
you went to the office?
A. Well, I went Monday.
Q. You went Monday?
A. I never did stay away because I was waiting for calls from
him too.
Q. You went Monday. When did DEAN get out of the hospital and
return to the office?
A. It was a while. I'm sure it was over a week.
Q. O Over a week?
A.
That you could find in those books.
Q. Do you remember the office being broken into? If it had
been broken into while you were there, you would have
A. I would have had to know it.
Q. You opened and closed while he was in the hospital?
A. While he was in the hospital, and SARGE was down there most
all of the time.
Q. Like somebody just broke into the office and threw records
all over the place, like somebody just ransacking the place.
A. When was this supposed to have taken place?
Q. Inaudible.
A.
I don't know about it. Now, had it happened after DEAN was
out of the hospital, and it happened at night or something,
I don't know about it. But I dod know all of the records
were messed up with "Betsy". I wasn't there at the time.
Q. Yeah, that was '65.
A.
But, I don't remember that.
Q. I guess you were shown some pictures already.
A. What's that?
Q. Of different people that may have come there
A. No, this is the first. I've been waiting for it and on pins
and needles because my mother is old, and she's had two
strokes already. Her eyesight and everything is bad, and I
worry about here. Well, this you know I know by now. I think
I know it. I wouldn't want to get in court and swear that
the picture that I've seen.
-5-
a
Is OSWALD?
A. Yeah. By the way, DEAN did have a picture of this fellow.
But now, this is a funny thing, because this is what he told
the FBI, I mean, he showed this picture to the FBI. I think
he gave it to them. He had a
Q. Do you know where he got it from?
A. Yes, that's what I'm trying to tell you. A Mexican or
Spanis or a central American who was having some kind of
visa work done - whether they wanted it extended or not I do
not know, because DEAN did most of his work in hiw head -
and DEAN would sit around with a file and type out what he
wanted and that was it. I mean, that's the type he was. A
good-hearted slob. And this girl had to have some kind of
proof that she was in a town at a certain time, you know how
they put the dates under the pictures - so somebody took the
picture of her in front of the International Trade Mart,
and OSWALD was handing out papers at the time. So that was
the picture he gave - I think he gave it to the FBI. I know
he had it to give to them. He told us
Q.
He was representing the girl?
A.
Yes, this girl.
2.
You don't remember who she was?
A. Gosh no, they had some - he was an expert on this. He was
a naturalization
Q. Well, did he keep records on these people that he represented
in some type of way.
A. Most of them.
Q. But he never did keep any records for this man?
A. No, ne never did any work for this man. This man only came
to see him. He never did do anything else, and it couldn't
have been too long before DEAN went into the hospital that
this man came to see him. I mean what he told me, that is
the man that I'm thinking of with the lady with the long
stringy hair.
Q. But you did notice that couple? If you had received a
telephone call.
A. Well, I know they had a couple - I can remember a woman with
long hair which wasn't as popular as it is today, but I
couldn't ever say whether or not.
Q. Did these telephone calls - say if I was to call DEAN
ANDREWS, you could tell it by the telephone records?
A.
Yes.
-6-
Q. If I was to call DEAN ANDREWS and say, "This is Duffy. I
would like to speak to DEAN ANDREWS.", you would make a
record of that?
A. Yes I might. If you said you were Mr. Duffy and I said he
wasn't there, I would just write "Mr. Duffy". If you gave
me your number, the number would have been along side of it.
Q. Do you ever remember a CLAY BERTRAND?
A. Just when the name came up in this deal. I mean, I never
heard the name before. Now, I've heard the name CLAY SHAW
but not from Dean ANDREWS' office. I worked with investi-
gators for 9 years. Not out in the field, but in town.
Pendleton Detective Agency and I was with Penguin. That was
right around Carnival and we were in the Whitney Building
and the International Trade Mart so I knew that name. Let
me see. You have some more pictures? This must be what they
are trying to say is the beatnick in the - I'm putting
myself in Russo's place today. May I ask who this is? I
don't know the picture. I mean, I don't know the face.
Q. That's the Latin-type we're trying to get identified. We
wanted to know if he's ever been to Mr. ANDREWS' office.
A. This one here sort of looks like Mr. ANDREWS. No, I never
saw that one before. I saw very few Latin-Americans or
Central American men ever come in his office. Mostly they
were women.
Q. Have you ever seen many degenerates come into his office?
A. No.
Q. Well, we understand they used to parade there quite often.
A. But always you see, DEAN stayed in his office at night
because he knew the minute that kind came in the day, I
would be going out the side door. I mean, I'm not a prude
or anything like that, but I don't want to live my life that
way. Like I say, I can remember him years ago when he was a
young good-looking man - because all of the girls used to
talk about that good-looking man. But I never knew him,
never had talked to him or anything like that.
Q. And you left DEAN's office in 1964? Am I correct?
A. That's right.
Q. His telephone records were all intact at the time you left?
A. And I'm sure they are still there.
Q. Did the FBI see any files? Or did Mr. ANDREWS give the FBI
any files?
A. Not that I know of
-7-
Q. If these files had been removed, would you have noticed it?
A. Not particularly. If they had been taken out of the files
I wouldn't have because he had files from years and years and
years back. If he had any that he was working on and I
could put them in the file and put them away, I would do
that. But, I mean, I never noticed that any were gone.
2. Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Within a few weeks
after the death of the President, if Mr. ANDREWS' office had
been broken into, ransacked and records thrown all over,
wouldn't Mr. ANDREWS have discussed this with you? Especially
if he was trying to determine if anything was missing?
A. He would have. I'll try and remember.
Q. In ordinary conversation, even if he had straightened it out
before you got there, to determine if anything was missing
he would have to mention it.
A. He would have and I'm trying to remember. I can't remember
anything. He may have said something to me about "Have you
seen this? It looks like somebody rooting." and I just
didn't give it any significance.
Q. No, I think you would remember if anybody broke ---
A. Now you've put me on the spot.
Q. No, I'm not trying to put you on the spot.
A. No, I mean trying to think.
Q. I mean, if somebody broke into my office and threw records
all over.
A. Yes, but you see, DEAN's office was over there -
Q. And somebody straightened it out before I got there, they
would certainly mention it to me when I got there. Everybody
in the building would know my office was broken into.
A. Well DEAN would come out with things like that every now and
then about, oh, he believed that the phone was bugged you
know and things like that, 'til I didn't pay any attention
to things like that. That's why I'm trying to place if
anything really did. But I swaar, I can't.
Q. Now DAVE FERRIE, the name DAVE FERRIE, does that ring a bell?
A. No. Never heard of him.
Q. Never heard of him?
A. Not until a couple of weeks ago.
Q. Let me ask you one more thing Miss Springer. You went there
A.
It had to be February '63.
-8-
Q. You worked in his office?
A.
Uh huh.
Q.
When was Mr. DAVIS employe there?
A.
I don't know whether you would ever say DAVIS was employed.
DAVIS had to have something to do; somewhere to be; so that
was his hangout. He would do little things for DEAN and
DEAN would pay him. But he was not -
Q. He paid him for what he did, not a salary?
A. No. That was the only -
Q. My impression is that he was an investigator strictly for
DEAN.
A.
No, but he had something to do besides
Q. Was he hanging around there at the time you went to work
there?
A. Well, when we were at Automotive Unlimited over there was
when SARGE came back from the hospital. He had had a bad
heart attack and they discharged him. And so when DEAN went
down there and moved into his office - well he never did
give it up - (bad length of tape)
Q. And when you left in '64 was SARGE still with ANDREWS?
A.
Yes, but he was looking for something to do for a steady
income, and he went into, I believe you would call it an
investigator, with some other attorney. But he's working
on a payroll or something with this other attorney.
Q. Have you been contacted by anybody since the investigation
broke in the newspapers? We were the first ones?
A. You're the first ones and since, ridiculously my name is in
the Warren Commission, it's also in this book called White-
wash, what the FBI asked me and what I said to them, which
is the same. It looks so ridiculous written in a book
because I don't know anything; I never did know anything and
so that was why I was quite surprised and waiting half way
on pins and needles you know, to see what was coming up next.
But I don't believe DEAN knew who the voice was and that's
what we referred to, the man that called him that Saturday
morning.
Q. Did he say anything?
A.
No, because I asked him, I said well DEAN you must know who
it is. He said, "Lord, I don't know. It's only a voice to
me. What I think, it must be somebody from Dallas." And I
asked him; we talked about that because I questioned him
quite thoroughly on that. He always stated as far as he was
concerned it was only a voice. Now, whether he was just
saying it or not, I don't really know.
-9-
Q. You did read the Warren Commission Report and that section
of what DEAN ANDREWS told them?
A. Yes, what he says about the three b's, what he called the
three b's or something like that; that there was a CLAY
BERTRAND. That was much later. But he said he thought it
could be a CLEM or a CLAY now. A CLAY BERTRAND.
Q. He mentioned that he had
on that.
A. Yes. I wasn't there when he told the FBI that. I guess that
was one time when they questioned him alone, but when they
came into the office and we were talking all together, still
as far as I was concerned it was still a voice until someone
came up to me one day and asked me did I ever work for -
where I'm working now, with DEAN ANDREWS. I said I did. And
they said you're in the Warren Commission and they brought
me the little excerpts that said that he mentioned CLEM
BERTRAND and the FBI said it was only a figment of his
imagination.
Q. Did you ever search any of these diaries or records that
you kept there for any of these particular names?
A. I went all through the logs, the telephone logs, yes, with
an FBI man because I told him that if OSWALD had ever called
I would have taken down the name. We went all through that
and we never did see anything about OSWALD.
Q. Was he interested in the BERTRAND name too?
A. I don't know. He may have. Now, you know how you are
Q. Did he ever mention the name BERTRAND to you?
A. No. That's what I say, he may have had it in his mind while
we were going through because we went through together. But
he never mentioned that. The first I knew about it was when
one evening when I came home my sister called and she said
"Did you ever hear of CLAY BERTRAND?" and I said "No." She
said "Well they're saying now that CLAY BERTRAND was
subpoenaed alias CLAY SHAW was subpoenaed alias CLAY
BERTRAND, and that DEAN had told that to the FBI." That was
the only time I ever heard that, you know -
Q. Do you remember any name that was similar to CLAY BERTRAND?
A. No. I don't even remember the name of CLAY being used,
because I think I would have connected something anyhow.
But no, it was still a voice. Of course, I didn't talk to
him: remember this from 1964 until then.
Q. He handled quite a few, like you said before, quite a few
of these cases of the immigration department involving visas
and cases with the Immigration and Naturalization Department.
A. Yes.
-10-
Q. Who was his contact handling that? Was somebody referring
them to him?
A. I don't know. Now you've really got me. I thought you know
how you go to a foreign country they stick together. I
thought that was why.
Q.
You don't remember any particular person he received more
phone calls from and it seemed the visa business would come
shortly thereafter.
A.
No, because after I was down there working with him it had
dropped off a whole lot. Before that, they say he was an
expert on it - - after I was down there he only had women like
wanting to extend their visas, or get their brothers to come
over or -
Q. He spoke Spanish?
A. Me?
Q. No, Mr. ANDREWS.
A.
I don't believe he spoke any Spanish.
Q. I seems strange you know handling -
A. He may, but I don't know.
Q. Did you clear up the point with the woman who is supposed to
be in the photo handing out when OSWALD was handing out--
It seems a coincidence there.
Was this person supposed to be in the photo with Oswald,
this woman.
A.
It was supposed to be a picture of the woman and it was a
picture of the woman passing the - or standing by the Trade
Mart.
Q. When OSWALD was there.
A. Yes. DEAN gave that picture to the FBI. He had it out
for them.
Q. And she gave him the picture?
A. Yes, with the day on it. You had to have it showing that
you were in New Orleans on a date or something. I think that
was it, because I never -
Q. Was this like a newspaper clipping.
A. No. It was a regular photograph.
Q. It seems awful strange.
I would surely like to know where those pictures come from.
I wonder where she got it.
A picture that would subsequently come
A. You all don't have that picture.
Q
Yes. it's somewhere back in the office. I'll look at it
again later.
-11
A. Because, Well where did you get it? You œuldn't have
gotten it from DEAN.
2
No. That picture has been all over.now. In New Orleans
and everywhere showing OSWALD handing out pamphlets.
A. And that was a lovely little Spanish girl. I've forgotten
what her name is.
Q. She was probably involved in an extension of a visa?
A. No, I believe that was to get her sister over. To get her
sister here. But where it was from, I don't know. I could
say that when he had clients in there I never really paid
that much attention. I did some typing for him but mostly
on suits to file. But I can't think of her name, but that
would be in the log.
Q. Would you say that Mr. DAVIS was an intelligent person?
A. Well, I'll tell you that Mr. DAVIS was an intelligent person.
What he has is a disease like the Lou Gehrig disease they
call it. At times he is and at times he's very sick. But
I think he was at one time however, I didn't know him then.
But the little while I knew him, you can just see his arms
and everything all shrinking up.
Q. Is he a nervous person.
A. Yes.
Q.
Does he show it by shaking?
A. Yes. Especially when he gets tired or has to get hometo
take his pills. I think he has a lot of pills to take to
relieve the pain.
Q. It doesn't worry him.
A. Well his medical discharge takes care of that. He's still
a sergeant and he gets ammedical pension. But that's why
he was discharged.
Mr. Hum NT. Did be my he didn't drive?
Mr. LEWIS. He didn't make comment. Ile said he didn't have any Heense,
Mr. HUMBER. You think It was about a Init hour after the first episode Just
he returned with the other Identification?
Mr. Levis. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the Latin American looking person with him on both
occasions?
Mr. LEWIS. Both occasions; yes.
Mr. HURERT. All right. sir, have you anything to add?
Mr. LEWIS. No, sir.
Mr. HUMARY. I think you made reference to the fact that the check from the
Western Union, which was the subject of this whole episode, had been pur-
chased by someone and payable to the payee Involved at the Cotton Exchange
branch?
Mr. LEWIS. Cotton Exchange branch.
Mr. HUMBER. Is that In Dallas?
Mr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; IL Is In the Cotton Exchange Building. I think It Is on
North Ervay.*
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I ask you whether you concur with me that since
I have met you today, which was the first time we ever met. there has been no
conversation between us other than that which has been covered In the depo-
sition In one way or another, Is that correct?
Mr. LEWIS. That's correct.
Mr. HUNERT. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. LEWIS. Thank you, sir.
TESTIMONY OF DEAN ADAMS ANDREWS, JR.
The testimony of Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., was taken on July 21, 1961. at
the Old Civil Courts Building. Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by
Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. C.
Dean Andrews, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified ns
follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. Mr. Andrews, ns you know by now, I am an attorney on the
staff of the President's Commission. I have been authorized to take your depost-
tion pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No.
11130, dated November 29. 1003, and Joint resolution of Congress, No. 137,
I understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you Inst week to
be here today, so you have had the requisite notice for the proceeding.
As you are a member of the bar-as you know, of course, you are entitled
to counsel, but you can probably forego that If you want to. You also know that
you have all the usual privileges not to answer questions on the grounds of
Incrimination and whatever other privileges you ruight have and want to
exercise.
Mr. LARBILER. Would you state your full name for the record, please.
Mr. ANDREWS. Dean, and the middle Initial Is A, A for Adams, Andrews, Jr.
Mr. LIEBELER. I am correct, am I not, that you are n member of the Bar of
Louisiana?
Mr. ANDREWS. ] nin n member of the bar of the State of Louisinna.
Mr. And you regularly practice law In the city of New Orleans?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's my office; yes.
Mr. LICHELER. Where do you live?
Mr. ANDREWS. 207 Metairle Lawn Drive. That's In Metairle, Ln.
Mr. Metairle Lawn Drive In Metatrie?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes,
Mr. LICENSER. Where do you maintain your offices?
Mr. ANDREWS. 627 Malson Blanche Building, New Orleans.
*COS North St. Paul, one block from Hrvay and YMCA.
325
524 .5517
Mr. LIEBELER I am advised by the FBI that you told them that Lee Harvey
Oswald came Into your office some time during the summer of 1963. Would
you tell us In your own words just what happened as far as that is concerned?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall the dates, but briefly, it is this: Oswald came in
the office accompanied by some my kids, They were Mexicanos. He wanted to
find out what could be done In connection with a discharge, a yellow paper dis-
charge, so I explained to him he would have to advance the funds to transeribe
whatever records they had up In the Adjutant General's office. When lic brought
the money, I would do the work, and we saw him three or four times subsequent
to that, not In the company of the gay kids. ITc had this Mexicano with him.
I assume be is a Mex because the Latins do not wear a butch haircut.
Mr. LUBELER. The first time be came in he was with these Mexicans, and there
were also some gay kids. By that, of course, you mean people that appeared to
you to be homosexuals?
Mr. ANDERWS. Well, they swish. What they are, I don't know. We call them
gay kids.
Mr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen any of those kids before?
Mr. ANDREWS. None of them.
Mr. LIEBULEG. Have you seen any of them since?
Mr. ANDREWS. Since the first time they came In?
Mr. LIERETER. Since the first time they came in?
Mr. ANDREWS Yes,
Mr. LIEBELLE, You have? C
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIERELLE. Did they ever come back with Oswald?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; Mexicanos came back.
Mr. LIERELER. Where did you see these gay kids after the first time?
Mr. ANDREWS. First district precinct. Police picked them up for wearing
clothes of the opposite sex.
Mr. LIEBELEE. How many of them were there?
Mr. ANDREWS. About 50.
Mr. LIEBELLE. They weren't all with Oswald, were they?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; Oswald-you see, they made what they call a scoop and
put them all in the pokey. I went down for the ones I represented. They were
in the holding pavition. I paroled them and got them out.
Mr. LICKELER. You do represent from time to time some of these gay kids, Is
that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER You say that some of the gay kids that you saw at the time the
police arrested this large group of them for wearing clothes of the opposite SCX
were the ones that had been with Oswald?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Were you able to Identify them by name?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: you see, they just-we don't even open up files on them.
general
We don't open a file. We mark what we call n working file. We make a few
notes and put it in the general week's work. If you come back and the office Is
retained, we make a permanent file and-but these kids come and go like-you
know.
Mr. LIERELER. When were these people picked up by the police as you have
told us?
Mr. ANDREWS. Let me think. Some time In May. I went and checked the
records. I couldn't find nothing on it. believe it's May of 1963.
2
Mr. LIEBELER. They were picked up in May of 10037
Mr. ANDREWS. On Friday,
Mr. LIKERLER. That was after Oswald had been In your office?
Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's initial contact. I think be had come back
with this Mexicano one more time.
Mr. LIEBELLE. Before These people were arrested?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; then the second Time he came back, we talked about the
yellow paper discharge. about his status as a citizen, and about his wife's status.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now before we get Into that, let me try and pin down how long
It was after the first time Oswald came in that these kids all got arrested. All
50 of them for wearing These clothes?
Mr. ANDREWS. 1 don't know It was 50. That 1 can't remember.
Mr. LIENELER. Was it a month? Two months? A week?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: It wasn't that. Ten days nt the most.
2
Mr. LITHELEE. I suppose the New Orleans Police Department files would re-
fleet the dates these people were picked up?
Mr. ANDREWS. I checked the first district's blotter and the people are there,
but I just can't get their names. You see, they wear names just like you and I
wear,elothes. Today their name is Candy: tomorrow it is Butsie: next day it is
Mary. You never know what they are. Names are a very improbable method
of identification. More sight. Like you see a dog. He is black and white.
That's your dog. You know them by sight mostly.
Mr. LICENSER Do you remember what date It was that that large arrest was
made?
Mr. ANDLEWS. No; every Friday is arrest day in New Orleans. They clean
them all up. The shotgun squad keeps the riots, the mugging, and all the hum-
bug out. They have been doing that very effectively, You can plck just any
Friday.
Mr. LICENSER. This was on a Friday?
Mr. ANDREWS. IL had to be a Friday or Saturday. C.
Mr. LIEBELER. In May of 1003?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIERCLER After you saw these kids at this hig pickup on Friday or Sat-
urday. did you ever see any of them again after that?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: still looking for them. They owe me a fee,
Mr. LIENELER They are always the hardest ones to find.
Mr. ANDREWS. They usually pay. They are screwed In.
Mr. LIERCLER. What did Oswald say to you about his own eitizenship status?
You say that he mentioned that the second time he came back. What did he
talk to you about in that regard?
Mr. ANDREWS. They came in usually after hours, about 5, 5:15, and as I re-
call, he had alleged that he had abandoned his citizenship. He didn't say how;
he didn't say where. I assumed that he was one of the people who wanted to
join The Free World and-1 represented one or two of them. They had belonged
to The World Citizenship-1 explained to him there are certain steps he had to
do, such as taking an oath of loyalty to a foreign power, voting In a foreign
country election, or soale method that Is recognized defectively ns loss of citi-
zeuship. Then I told him, "Your presence in the United States is proof you are
a citizen. Otherwise, you would be an alien with an alien registration with a
green card, form 000."
Mr. LICRELER. Had he told you he had been out of the country?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LICELLEE. Did he tell you where he had gone?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIERELER. Since he had been out of the country, the fact that he was back
and didn't have an alien card was proof he was a citizen?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other part of the conversation?
Mr. ANDREWS. When he asked the questions-I don't know which visit it
was-about eltizenship of his wife, I asked the birthplace or origin cited for
citizenship purposes- that's what counts-and he said Russia, so I just assumed
he had met someone somewhere, some place, either in Russia or in Europe
married them, and brought them over here ns a G1, a GI bride, and wanted to go
through the routine of naturalization, which is 3 years after lawful admission
into the United States if you are married, and five years If you are not, maintain
the status here in the States emmulatively for 5 years.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he Indicate that he wanted to Institute citizenship pro-
eeedings for his wife?
Mr. ANDEEWS. Yes; I told him to go to Immigration and get the forms. Cost
him $10. All he had to do was execute them. IIc didn't need a lawyer. That
the and that
Mr. LICENCER How many times did he come Into your office?
Mr. ANDREWS. Minimum of three, maximum of five, counting Initial visit.
Mr. And did you talk about different subjects nt different times?
AN I understand It. the first time he came there, he was primarily concerned
about his discharge. Is that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, I may have the subject matter of the visits reversed be
ramse with the company he kept and the conversation-he could talk fairly
well--1 figured that this was another one of what we call in my office free
alley elients, $0 we didn't maintain the normaley with the file that-might have
seratched a few notes on a piece of pad, and 2 days Inter threw the whole thing
away. Didn't pay too much attention to him. Only time I really paid atten-
tion to this hoy, he was in the front of the Maison Blanche Building giving out
these kooky Castro Things,
Mr. LICRELER. When was this, approximately?
Mr. ANDREWS. T don't remember. I was coming from the NBC building. and
I walked past him. You know how you see somebody, recognize him. So I
turned around, came back, and asked him what he was doing giving that junk
out. He said It was a job. 1 reminded him of the $25 he owed the office. Ilo
said he would come over there, but he never did.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was getting paid to hand out this
Ilterature?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. DId he tell you how much?
Mr. ANDEEWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that he told you that he was
being paid $25 a day for handing out these leaflets?
Mr. ANDREWS. I could have told them that. I know I reminded him of the
$23. I may have It confused. the $25. What I do recall, he said It was a job.
I guess I nsked him how much he was making. They were little square chits a
little bit smaller than the pleture you have of him over there [indicating].
Mr. LIEBELER. He was handing out these leaflets?
Mr. ANDREWS. They were black-and-white pamphlets extolling the virtues of
Castro, which around here doesn't do too good. They have a lot of guys,
Mexicanos and Cubanos, that will tear your head off If they see you fooling with
these things.
Mr. LIEBELER. What were they like?
Mr. ANDREWS. They were pamphlets, single-sheet pamphlets.
Mr. LIEBELER. Just one sheet? It wasn't a booklet?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LICENSER. What color were the pamphlets? You say It was white paper?
Mr. ANDREWS. White paper offset with black. C
Mr. LIEBELER. Could it have been yellow paper?
Mr. ANDREWS. I am totally colorblind. I wouldn't know. But I think It is
black and white.
Mr. LIERELER. You are colorblind?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes. Most of them wanted it around there. You give It to
them, the people look at It and they drop it, right now.
Mr. LIERELER. Do you remember what day of the week this was that you saw
him handing this stuff out?
Mr. ANDREWS. It was In the middle of the week, around Tuesday or
Wednesday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Where Is the Malson Blanche Building? What street Is It on?
Mr. ANDREWS. 021 Canal Street. It Is on this side. It Is bounded by Dauphine
and Burgundy.
Mr. How far Is it from the International Trade Mart?
Mr. ANDREWS. It depends on what route you take. If you come up Camp
Street, It would be two blocks to Canal and four blocks toward the cometery:
so It would be about six blocks. It would be six blocks no matter which way
you went, but you would walk four blocks on Common Street or Gravier, and
then two blocks over the other way.
Mr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that has
from the last time Oswald came Into your office to the last time you saw him In
the street handing out literature?
Mr. ANDREWS. I would say about G weeks, just guessing.
Mr. And you have never seen the Mexican at any other time since
then?
Mr. ANDREWS. No. He just couldn't have disappeared because the Mexican
community here Is pretty small. You can squeeze it pretty good, the Latin
community. He Is not known around here.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you made an attempt to find him since the assassination?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't had any success?
Mr. ANDREWS. No. Not too many places they can go not being noticed.
Mr. LICHELER. Was there anybody else with Oswald that day you saw him
handing out literature?
Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, people standing there with him. Whether they were with
him or not, I wouldn't know.
Mr. LICHELER. Did It appear that there was anybody else helping him band
out literature?
Mr. ANDREWS. There was one person. but they had no Ilterature. They weren't
giving anythir : out. Let me see that picture of that little bitty guy, that weasel
before.
Mr. LIVERLER Thanding pleture to witness]. This is Bringuier Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. ANDREWS. No: he resembled this boy, but it.ls not him. It is a pate face
Instead of a Latin.
Mr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Oswald on the street that day, did he give
you any Idea who was paying him to hand this stuff out?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: he Just sald, "It's a job."
Mr. LIERELER. My understanding is, of course, that you are here under subpena
and subpena duees tecum, asking you to bring with you any records that you
might have in your office Indicating or reflecting Oswald's visit, and my under-
standing is that you indicated that you were unable to find any such records.
Mr. ANDREWS. Right. My office was rifled shortly after I not out of the hos.
pital, and I talked with the FII people. We couldn't find anything prior to it.
Whoever was kind enough to mess my office up, going through It, we haven't
found anything since.
Mr. LIERELLER. You have caused n thorough search to be made of your office
for these records?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LICBERR. You haven't been able to come up with anything?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LICENSER. Did there come a time after the assassination when you had
some further Involvement with Oswald, or at least BP apparent involvement
huspital
with Oswald: as I understand 11? C
Mr. ANDREWS. No: nothing nt all with Oswald. J was in Hotel Dieu, and the
phone rang and a voice I recognized as Clay Bertrand nsked me If I would go to
Dallas and Houston I think-Dallas, I MUSS wherever It was that this boy was
being held and defend him. I told him I was sick In the hospital. If 1
couldn't go. would find somebody that could go.
Mr. LIERELER. You told him you were sick in the hospital and what?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's where I was when the call came through. It came
through the hospital switchboard. I said that I wasn't In shape enough to go
to Dallas and defend him and 1 would see what I could do.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now what can you tell us about this Clay Bertrand? You
met him prior to that time?
Mr. ANDREWS. I bad seen Clay Bertrand once some time ago, probably n
couple of years. He's the one who calls in behalf of BUY kids normally. either
to obtain bond or parole. for them. I would assume that he was the one that
originally sent Oswald and the my kids, these Mexicanos, to the office because
I bad never seen those people before nt all. They were Just walk-Ins.
Mr. LICHELER You say that you think you saw Clay Bertrand some time about
2 years prior to the time you received this telephone call that you have just
told us about?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: he is mostly a voice on the phone.
Mr. LIEBELER, What day did you receive the telephone call from Clay Bertrand
asking you to defend Oswald?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. It was a Friday or a Saturday.
Mr. LIEBELER. Immediately following the assassination?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't know about that. I didn't know. Yes; I did. I guess
1 did because I was-they told me I was squirrelly In the hospital.
Mr. LACRELER. You had pneumonia; is that right?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes,
Mr. LIEBELER. And as I understand It, you were under heavy sedation at
that time In connection with your treatment for pnemonia?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; this is what happened: After I got the call, I called my
secretary at her home and asked her if she had remembered Lee Harvey Oswald's
file. or course, she didn't remember, and 1 had to tell her about all the kooky
kids, She thought we had a file In the office. I would assume that he would
Z
have called subsequent to this boy's arrest. I am pretty sure IL was before the
don't know.
Mr. LIEBELER. You don't mean before the assassination-don't you mean before
Oswald had been shot? After the assassination and before Oswald had been
shot?
Mr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's arrest and prior to his-
Mr. LICRELER. I!is death?
Mr. ANDREWS. IIIS death.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now my recollection from reviewing reports from the FBI is
that you first advised the FRI of this, telling them that you recall that Clay
Hertrand had called you at some time between G o'clock and 0 o'clock In the
evening and spoke to you about this matter. Do you remember telling the FBI
about that?
Mr. ANDREWS. I remember speaking with them. The exact words, I do not,
but that's probably correct.
Mr. LIERELER Do you remember what time approximately that Clay Bertrand
did call you?
Mr. ANDREWS. T will tell you: They feed around 4:30. By the time I got fed,
it was about 5 o'clock. They picked the tray up. So that's about the right
time. It's around that time.
Mr. LIERELER. Now you said that after Clay Bertrand called you, you called
your secretary and asked her If she remembered the Oswald file: is that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: she didn't remember Oswald nt all. She knows that
occasionally these people walk in and out of the office and she bad remembered
something. but nothing of any value.
Mr. LIEBELER. And do you remember that after you got out of the hospital,
you discussed with your secretary the telephone call that you made to her at
home?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. And do you recall that she said that she remembered that you
called her nt approximately 4 o'clock on the afternoon of November 23, 1003?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now have you-let's take it one step further: Do you also recall
the fact that your private Investigator spent most of that afternoon with you
in your hospital room?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: he was there. C
Mr. LIERELER. He was there with you?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; Preston M. Davis.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what time he left?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Would it have been before you called your secretary or after-
wards?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIEBELER. Before you colled?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: after.
Mr. LIEBELER. After you called your secretary?
Mr. ANDREWS. Let's sce. Itc wasn't there when I made the phone call. IIc
there when Berirand me, I am pretty sure, because he would
have remembered it if I didn't
Mr. LICHELER. You discussed it and he doesn't, in fact, remember that you
received the telephone call from Clay Berirand?
Mr. ANDREWS. He wasn't there. While he was there, we received no call from
Clay Bertrand or no call concerning the office or business because I would have
talked to him about it.
Mr. LIMBELER You say that he left before you called your secretary?
Mr. ANDREWS. I think be left around chow time, which, I think, IN around
4 o'clock. I could be wrong.
Mr. LICENLER Now after giving this time sequence that we have talked about
here the consideration that I am sure you have after discussing It with the
FBI, have you come mp with any solution in your own mind to the apparent
problems that exist here? That is to sny, that your recollection is that you
called your secretary after you received the call from Clay Bertrand and you
called your secretary at -1 o'clock, which would indicate that you must have
received the call from Clay Bertrand prior to 4 o'clock, but you did not receive
the call from Mr. Bertrand while Mr. Davis was there, and he left at approxi-
mately 4 o'clock or shortly before you called your secretary, in addition to
which, you Grst recall receiving the call from Clay Bertrand some time between
G o'clock and 2 o'clock in the evening.
Mr. ANDREWS, Well, the time factor T can't help you with. TC is impossible.
But I feel this: I wouldn't have called my secretary-If 1 couldn't get her to
verify it, I would tell you that I was smoking weed. You know, sailing out on
cloud 0.
Mr. LIEBELER. But, in fact, she did verify the fact that you did call her?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: I often thought it was a nightmare or a dream, but It
isn't. It's just that I can't place-other than what I told Regis Kennedy and
John Rice, the exact time I can't help you on. But If It hadn't been for calling
her and asking her-
Mr. LIEBELER. To look up the Oswald file or If she remembered the Oswald
file?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: I would just any I have 11 pretty vivid Imagination and let's
just forget it. Anything other than the law practice - would say that what
Regis suspects Is that 1 was full of that dope, but I normally take certain steps,
and this is the way I would have done It is what T did. 1 called her. Had
Davis been there when the call came In, Davis would have been told, and be
would have left the hospital, went down to the office, and shook the office down
for the file, and called me from there before he went home. I know II conldn't
have come in while he was there. The only media of time that I can use is
either medication or food. or course, being fat, I like food. I wasn't much
Interested in food. They weren't feeding me too much, and I am pretty sure
It was after medication and food and the tray had been picked up that the call
came in.
Mr. LIEBELER. or course, they fed you more than once up there?
Mr. ANDREWS. They feed three times n day, but they don't feed you enough
to keep a sparrow alive.
Mr. Well, In any event, you are not able to clarify for us the
sequence of what happened? c
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, the sequence of events had to be this: Davis spent Satur-
day afternoon with me. He probably left just before chow, and then I ate, and
the phone call came in some time after chow. I am positive It wasn't as late
as 0 o'clock. I think the latest It could have been is C, but Miss Springer says
I called her some time around 4, :30-1 don't know which.
Mr. Miss Springer is your secretary?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LICENSER. Now do you recall talking to an FRI agent, Regis L. Kennedy,
and Carl In Schlaeger on November 25?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't remember-Kennedy, yes; Schlaeger, no. I don't even
know If be was in the same room. I don't think I have even seen him, much
less talk to him.
Mr. Kennedy wast yes?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. LIERELER. They usually go around in pairs?
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, they work in teams, SO he's got to have been there.
Mr. LIEBELER. Now Kennedy came and visited you at the hospital; Is that
correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. Right.
Mr. LIERELER. Now--
Mr. ANDREWS. I remember that pretty good because I called the Feebees, and
the guy says to put the phone, you know, and nothing happened.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Feebees?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's what we call the Federal guys, All of a sudden, like
n big hurricane, here they come.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling him at that time that you thought
that Clay Bertrand had come into the office with Oswald when Oswald had been
in the office carller Instrpring?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; I don't remember.
Mr. LIBRELER. Was Bertrand ever in the office with Oswald?
Mr. ANDREWS. Not that ] remember.
Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have a pleture in your mind of this Clay Berirand?
Mr. ANDREWS. Oh, I ran up on that rat about G weeks ago and he spooked, ran
In the street. I would have beat him with a chain If I had caught him.
Mr. LIMBELER Let me ask you this: When I was down here in April, before
I talked to you about this thing, and T was going to take your deposition at
that time, but we didn't make arrangements, in your continuing discussions with
the FBI, you finally came to the conclusion that Clay Bertrand was a figuent
of your Imagination?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's what the Feebees put on. I know that the two Feebees
are going to put these people on the street looking. and I can't find the guy,
and I am not going to tie пр all the agents on something that Isn't that solid.
J told them, "Write what you want, that I nm nuts. Idon't care." They were
running on the time factor, and the hills were shook up plenty to get it, get
it, get It. I couldn't give It to them. ] have been playing cops and robbers
with them. You can tell when the steam is on. They are on you like the
plagno. They never leave. They are like cancer. Eternal.
Mr. LICRELER. That was the description of the situation?
Mr. ANDREWS. It was my decision If they were to stay there. If I decide
yes, they stay. If I decide no, they go. So I told them, "Close your file and
go some place else." That's the real reason why It was done. I don't know
what they wrote In the report, but that's the real reason.
Mr. LICENSER. Now subsequent to that time, however, you actually ran into
Clay Bertrand In the street?
Mr. ANDREWS. About G weeks ago I am trying to think of the name of this
bar. That's where this raseal bums out. I was trying to get past him so
I could get a nickel In the phone and call the Feebees or John Rice, but he
saw me and spooked and ran. I haven't seen him since.
Mr. LIEBELLR. Did you talk to him that day?
Mr. ANDREWS. No; If I would have got close enough to talk to him. I would
have grabbed him.
Mr. LIEBELLE. What does this guy look like?
Mr. ANDREWS. He Is about 5 feet 8 inches. Got sandy hair, blue cyc3, ruddy
complexion. Must weigh about 105. 170, 175. He really took off, that rascal.
Mr. LIEBELER. He recognized you? C.,
Mr. ANDREWS. He had to because If he would have let me get to that phono
and make the call, he would be In custody.
Mr. LICENSER. You wanted to get hold of this guy and make him available
to the FBI for Interview, or Mr. Rice of the Secret Service?
Mr. ANDREWS. What T wanted to do and should have done Is crack him in
the head with a bottle, but I figured would be n good, law-abiding citizen
and call them and Ict Them grab him, but I made the biggest mistake of the
century. I should have grabbed him right there. I probably will never find
him again. Ilc has been bugging me ever since this happened.
Mr. LIKENCER. Now before you ran Into Clay Bertrand in the street on this
day, did you have a notion In your mind what he looked like?
Mr. ANDREWS. I had seen him before one time to recognize him.
Mr. LIERELER. When you saw him that day, he appeared to you as he had
before when you recognized him?
Mr. ANDREWS. He hasn't changed any appearance, I don't think. Maybe a
little fatter, maybe a little skinnier.
Mr. LAEBELER. Now I have a rather lengthy report of an Interview that Mr.
Kennedy had with you on December 5. 1963, in which he reports you as stating
that you had a mental picture of Clay Bertrand as being approximately C feel
1 inch to G feet 2 inches in height, brown hair, and well dressed.
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. Now this description Is different, at least in terms of height of
the man, than the one you have Just given us of Clay Bertrand.
2
Mr. ANDREWS, Thit, you know, 1 don't play Boy Scouts and measure them.
J have only seen this fellow twice in my life. 1 don't think there is that much
in the description. There may be some to some artist, but to me, there but
that much difference. Might be for you all.
Mr. LATHELLER. 1 think you said he was 5 feet S inches before.
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, ] can't give you any better because this time 1 was look-
ing for the fellow, he was sitting down. I am just estimating. You meet a
guy 2 years ago, you meet him, period.
Mr. LIEBELER. Which time was he sitting down?
Mr. ANDREWS. He was standing up first time.
Mr. LACRELER. I thought you met him on the street the second time when
you-
Mr. ANDREWS. No, he was in a barroom.
Mr. LICENSER. The was sitting in n bar when you saw him 6 weeks age?
2
Mr. ANDREWS, A table at the right-hand side I go there every now and
then spooking for him.
Mr. LIEBELER. What's the name of the bar you saw him In that day, do you
remember?
Mr. ANDREWS, Cosimo's, used to be. Little freaky joint.
Mr. LIEBELER. Well, now, If you didn't see him standing up on that day
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
CMr. LIERELLE So that you didn't have any basis on which to change your
mental picture of this man In regard to his height from the first one that
you had?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIERELER. I am at a loss to understand why you told Agent Kennedy on
December 5 that 1:0 was G feet 1 to G feet 2 and now you have told us that he
was 5 feet S when at no time did you see the man standing up.
Mr. ANDREWS. Because, I guess, the first time-and 1 am guessing now--
Mr. LIERELEE Is this follow a homosexual, do you say?
Mr. ANDREWS. Bisexual. What they call A swinging eat.
Mr. LIEBELER. And you haven't seen him nt any time since that day?
Mr. ANDREWS. I haven't seen him since.
Mr. LICENSE Now have you had your office searched for any records relating
to Clay Bertrand?
Mr. ANDEEWS. Yes.
Mr. LICENSE. Have you found anything? C.
Mr. ANDREWS. No: nothing.
Mr. Has this fellow Bertrand sent you business in the past?
Mr. ANDREWS. Prior to-I guess. the last time would be February of 1963.
Mr. LIEBELER. And mostly he refers, I think you said, these gay kids, is that
right?
Mr. ANDREWS. Right
Mr. LIEBELER. In discussing this matter with your private detective, Mr.
Davis, and Miss Springer, your secretary. have you asked them whether or not
they have any recollection of ever having seen Oswald In the office?
Mr. ANDREWS. Davis does; Springer doesn't.
Mr. LIEBELER. Davis does have a recollection?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; he recalls. He usually stays with me until about clos-
Ing time. We review whatever he is doing. and he remembers them AN a group.
Mr. LAKEELER. So he was there then the first time they were there? The only
time that he was with a group is the first time, is that right?
Mr. ANDREWE, Right
Mr. LAEMILER. Have you discussed with Miss Springer and Mr. Davis the
whereabouts or any recollection they might have about Clay Bertrand?
Mr. ANDREWS. They weren't with me, 1 believe, at the time I knew Bertrand.
Mr. Have you disensed it with them?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: but they weren't employed by me at the time I knew him.
Mr. LAKEELER. So they have no recollection of Bertrand?
Mr. ANDREWS.-No
Mr. LIEBELER.-When Oswald came Into your office, of course, he told you what
his name was, didn't he?
Mr. ANDREWS. Tee Oswald. I don't know whether that's his name or not.
Mr. LIEBELER. That that's what he told you?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's what he told me.
Mr. LIEBELER Do you remember discussing or mentioning his name to Davis
at any time prior to November 23, 1003?
Mr. ANDREWS. What the procedure Is-I am in a different office now than I
was then, and II was a very small office, and they would come into il-well,
what I would call my office-and they just had the reception room out in the
front, and Davis would go out there, and on those matters, It's not a matter
that he would be discussing. but probably some words passed as to the swishing
and the characteristics that they had, but other than that in the business, unless
something is assigned to him, he knows nothing in that office unless it is assigned
to him.
Mr. LIEBELER So you say you probably did not mention Oswald's name to
Davis?
Mr. ANDREWS. I probably did not, other than we commented on the group in
general, but none of the business that was involved or any names.
Mr. LACHELER Is It an extraordinary thing for a bunch of gay kids to come
Into your office like that, or did they come from time to time?
Mr. ANDREWS. Well, let's see. Last week there were six of them in there.
Depends on how had the police are rousing them. They shoo them in. My
best customers are the police. They shoo them into the office. God bless
the police.
Mr. LIMBELER. Did you ever know a man by the name of Kerry Thornley as
one of these may kids?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of Thornley?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: I represent them and that's about all there is to It. When
they owe me money. I know where to go grab them, and that's about as far as
It goes. Is he supposed to be down here?
Mr. LIEBELLE. Thornley?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; can find out If he ever made the scene here real easy.
Mr. LIEBELER. No; he Is not In New Orleans, I don't think, at the moment.
When Oswald told you about his discharge, did he tell you what branch of the
service he had been in?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he got discharged?
Mr. ANDREWS. No.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of n discharge he had? C
Mr. ANDREWS. He told me be was dishonorably discharged. That's what I
call n yellow sheet discharge. I told him I needed his serial number, the service
he was In, the approximate time he got discharged, and, I think, $15 or $25, I
forget which, and to take the service, his rate or rank, the scrial number, and
to write to the Adjutant General for the transcript of the proceedings that
washed him out 50 that they could be examined and SCC If there was any method
of reopening or reconsideration on the ille.
Mr. LIMBELER. But he did not tell you any of those things?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: he said he would come back, and he came back, but 1 still
didn't get his serial number and 1 still didn't get the money.
Mr. LIEBELER, Do you remember specifically that he stated he had a dishomor-
able discharge as opposed to some other kind of discharge? Do you have n
specific recollection on that?
Mr. ANDREWS. We call them in the Navy, B.C.D.'s and I associated that. 11c
never mentioned the specific type discharge. It was one that was other than
honorable, as we would put It in the legal sense. I just assumed II was a B.C.D.
If he was in the Marines or Navy. If he was in the Army, it's a yellow discharge.
Mr. LIEBELER. Did be tell you if he was working at that time or If he had A
job when he first came Into your office?
Mr. ANDREWS. Never asked him.
Mr. LIERELER. Did he associate his other than honorable discharge with dif-
ficulty in obtaining employment?
Mr. ANDREWS. I just don't remember. Ilc had a reason why he wanted It
reopened. What, I don't recall. Ile had n reason. I don't recall. 11c men-
tioned a reason, but 1 don't recall. 1 was trying to remember where they were
seated to see if that would help. but no.
Mr. LICENSER. Tell me approximately how tall Oswald was.
Mr. ANDREWE. Oh, about 5 feet G inches, 5 feet 7 inches, I guess.
Mr. LIKELER. And about how much did he weigh?
Mr. ANDREWS. About 135, 110.
Mr. LIEBELEE. I don't think I have any more questions. Do you have any-
thing else that you would like to add?
Mr. ANDREWS. T wish T could be more specific, that's all. This is my Impres-
sion, for whatever It is worth, of Clay Bertrand: Ilis connections with Oswaid
I don't know nt all. I think he is a lawyer without a brief case. That's my
opinion. He sends the kids different places. Whether this boy is associated
with Lee Oswald or not, I don't know, but I would say, when I met him about
6 weeks ago when I ran up on him and he ran away from me, he could be running
because he owes me money, or he could be running because They have been
squeezing The quarter pretty good looking for him while I was in the hospital,
and somebody might have passed the word he was hot and I was looking for
him, but I have never been able to figure out the reason why he would call me,
and the only other part of this thing that I understand. but apparently I haven't
been able to communicate, Is 1 called Monk Zelden on a Sunday at the N.O.A.C.
and asked Monk if he would 100 over- Interested in a retainer and 20 over to
Dallas and see about that boy. I thought 1 called Monk once. Monk says
we talked twice. ] don't remetaber the second. It's all one conversation with
me. Only thing I do remember about it, while T was talking with Monk, In said,
:: "Don't worry about IL Your client just got shot." That was the end of the
case. Even If he was n bona fide client, T never did get to him: somebody else
got to him before I did. Other than that, that's the whole things but this boy
Bertrand has been bugging me ever since. I will find him sooner or later.
Mr. Does Bortraind owe you money?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: "nin't looking for him for that, I want to find out why
he called me on behalf of this boy after the President was assassinated.
q
Mr. LICENSER. How come Bertrand owes you money?
Mr. ANDREWS. I have done him some legal work that he has falled to pay the
office for.
Mr. LIEBELER. When was that?
Mr. ANDREWS. That's in a period of years that I have-like you are Bertrand.
You call up and ask me to go down and get Mr. X out. If Mr. X doesn't pay on
those kinds of calls, Bertrand has n guarantee for the payment of appearance.
One or two of these kids had skipped. I had to go pay the penalty, which was
a lot of trouble. C.
Mr. LAKHELER. You were going to hold Bertrand for that?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes.
Mr. Did Oswald appear to you to be gay?
Mr. ANDREWS. You can't tell. I couldn't say. He swang with the kids. He
didn't swish, but birds of a feather flock together. I don't know any squares
that run with them. They may CO down in look
Mr. LICRETER. When you say he didn't swish, what Co you mean by that?
Mr. ANDREWS. He is not effeminate: his voice isn't squeaky; he didn't walk
lila or Talk like n girl: he walks and talks like a man.
Mr. Did you notice anything about the way he walked? Was there
anything striking about the way be carried himself?
Mr. ANDREWS. I never paid attention. I never watched him walk other than
Into and ont of the office. There's nothing that would draw my attention to any-
thing out of the ordinary, but ) Just assumed that he knew these people and was
with them. They had no reason to come. The three gay kids he was
with, they were ostentations, They were what we call swishers. You can just
1000 IT Them. All they had to do was open their mouth. That was it. Walk,
they can swing better than Sammy Kaye. They do real good. With those pro-
nouneed ones, you never know what the relationship is with anyone else with
theat, but I have no way of telling whether he is gay or not, other than he came
in with what they call here queens, That's about it.
Mr. LIEBELER. You have never seen any of these people since that first day
they came Into your office with Oswald, that first day and when you saw them
dow at the police station?
Mr. ANDREWS. The three queens? The three gay boys? No; I have never
seen them.
Mr. LIEBELER. There were Just three of them?
Mr. ANDREWS. The Latte type. Mexicanos will crop their hair and a Latin
won't, 50 I assume he Is a Mex.
Mr. LICRELER. So altogether there were five of them that came Into the office?
Mr. ANDREWS Five. The only other thing that shook me to my toes-you
have the other part-the Secret Service brought me some things. They don't
1
have the complete photograph. They have another photograph with the two
Realpey sisters. They are actually In the office, and that shook me down to my
toes pretty good.
Mr. Lar RELER [handing: picture to witness]. The picture you refer to might
be Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Is that the one?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes, this is it. Victoria Renipey-Plaza and her sister Mar-
guerite Realpey-Plaza, and I can't recall this young Indy's name here at all
Indicating].
Mr. You are pointing to the three women who are standing C,
Mr. ANDREWS. The one facing, standing as you look at It.
Mr. That's the one you can't Identify?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes; I have her file In the office. Uncle is n warden at the
Paris Prison here in New Orleans.
Mr. LIMBELER. And you are referring to the three women that are standing
at the right side of Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B?
Mr. ANDREWS. The girl carrying the pocketbook.
Mr. LICRELER. That's the one whose name you can't remember at the moment?
Mr. ANDREWS. Right.
Mr. LICBELER. Now this little fellow standing on the far left side of the pic-
ture, have you ever seen him before? Is he one of those gay boys who were
In the office?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: these were all Americanos, these boys. He may be, but
he is Latin looking.
Mr. LIEBELER. Ile looks like a Latin?
Mr. ANDREWS. Right. This boy should be able to be found. I wanted to look
for bim, but I didn't have a picture of him.
Mr. LICENCER. Who Is that?
Mr. ANDREWS. The one you just asked me about. If you put some circulars
around to have the Latin American people squeezed gently, he has got to be
found, They are very clannish. There are only certain places they go. Some-
body has to remember him. He can't just come Into New Orleans and disnp-
pear. As long as he walks the street, he has to eat and he has to have somo
place to sleep and-but I didn't have a picture of him, and nobody-you just
can't do IL But n lot of water has run under the stream. IIc may or may
not be here, but It wouldn't be too hard to locate him, you know, with the proper
Identification.
Mr. LICHELLE Well, your friends down the street have been trying to find
him and haven't come up with him yet.
Mr. ANDREWS. Debrueys?
Mr. LIEBELEE. Yes.
Mr. ANDREWS. Sometimes the stools on that are not too good. They need
Latin stools for that boy.
Mr. LIEBELER. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. LIEBELER. Did you just indicate that you would like to find Mr. Bertrand
and he did run off? Did you see him run off?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: I chased him, but I couldn't go.
Mr. LIEBELER. This was when you saw him G weeks ago?
Mr. ANDREWS. Yes: this barroom is right adjacent to-the street-ns you go
in, there are two.entrances. one on the block side and one on the corner. I had
no more Idea of finding him than imping off the bridge. I went in there hoping.
and the hope came through. J was 80 surprised to see him there. I kept work-
Ing my way there to 20 to the front when be recognized me and he sprinted
out the door 011 the side of the street and was gone. I had in to past him to
go to the phone. 1 should have conked him with the beer bottle.
Mr. LUMBER He took off as soon as he saw you?
Mr. ANDREWS. No: but I was moving to go to the phone. He thought I was
moving towards him.
Mr. LIEBLIER Thanding picture to witness]. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No.
453-A, and ask you If you can recognize anybody in that picture.
Mr. ANDREWS. The one that has a brief case under his arm, full. face towards
the looker, appears to be Lee Oswald. This boy back here [indicating] appears
to be familiar, but ] would have to blow his face up in be sure. He is in
between. See, this one here [indicating]? I have never seen this picture
before.
Mr. LIEBELER. Between Oswald, who has the cross mark over his head, and
the man who has the arrow over his head?
Mr. ANDREWS. He is a local boy here, a face I recall. It would take me a
while to place it, bin the face appears to be familiar.
Mr. LIERELLE. You haven't seen this picture before, Is that correct?
Mr. ANDREWS. ] don't believe.
Mr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service and the FBI have shown you various pic-
tures, but you don't recall this one?
Mr. ANDREWS. I don't recall seeing that one. There was one of a series
where-one of an attorney in town was there--where we all knew him. They
may have shown me this, but I don't remember. We used to have a club back
In 1916 called Lock (?) Fraternity, and he resembles a boy that was a member.
Mr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Andrews. I
want to thank you very much for coming in and I appreciate the cooperation
you have given us.
Mr. ANDREWS. I only wish I could do better.
TESTIMONY OF EVARISTO RODRIGUEZ
The testimony of Evaristo Rodriguez, was taken on July 21, 1961. at the Old
Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley
J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Special Agent
Richard F. Logan, interpreter, Federal Bureau of Investigation. was present.
Evaristo Rodriguez, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified,
through the Interpreter, Mr. Logan, ns follows:
Mr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission
Investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to
tako your testimony by the Commission internant in
MEMORANDUM
TO:
LOUIE IVON, Chief Investigator
FROM:
GARY SANDERS, Investigator
SUBJECT:
DEAN ANDREWS
RE:
INTERVIEW WITH RICHARD ROLFE
January 11, 1968
627 Dumaine St.
New Orleans, La.
525-0184
MR. RICHARD ROLFE and his wife JUNE ROLFE were interviewed on
January 11, 1968, at the office of his business establishment at
627 Dumaine St. Miss Jody Duek attended this interview and tooh
notes from which this report is written.
RICHARD ROLFE mentioned during the interview that a short time
ago he had been walking down the street with a client and had
met DEAN ANDREWS, who was walking with a "Quanter Girl, sarape,
sandals, the whole bit," and they had talked briefly. He had
said to DEAN that he should drop by ROLFE'S office some day and
they could talk.
DEAN ANDREWS had never previously been to ROLFE'S office. But
a few days later he came in, and said "Come on baby, let's make
some money". ROLFE replied that that would be fine with him,
and asked for an explanation. DEAN said that he wondered if
he built a sound studio, to be used to tape TV shows etc., kind
of a recording studio here in the city and rent the Cacilities
out, would it go over well. ROLFE said it could definitely have
metit, especially for the politicians, who could record their
speeches for television without their opposition knowing what
they were going to say before they said it. ROLFE said it would
definitely go over well.
ROLFE then said that although it would surely go over well, it
would cost a lot of money, at least a quarter of a million
dollars.
ANDREWS immediately replied that it would be exactly $300,000.00
DICK ROLFE then said that that was fine, but since neither of
them had that kind of money, they might as well forget it.
DEAN ANDREWS then said "I can get the equipment here, all I have
to do is make a phone call, I'll have open credit, I can pay off
on any terms, I have to give up 10-15% of the action and I can
get it."
ROLFE said he didn't want to be nosy but would like to know just
who was going to do this for DEAN.
DEAN'S direct quote via ROLFE was: "Look, BOBBY SARNOFF premised
me those facilities, and he'd better pay off, baby."
Gary M. Sanders
GMS:jld
Dean Andrews Files Suit
for Damages Against DA
Lawyer Seeks $100,000
from Garrison
Lawyer Dean Andrews, who
was twice indicted by the Or-
leans Parish Grand Jury in con-
nection with District Attorney
Jim Garrison's assassination
probe, filed a $100,000 damage
suit in federal court Tuesday
against Garrison
Andrews alleges in the suit
that Garrison deprived him of
his civil rights.
The sult was filed shortly aft-
er Andrews pleaded innocent for
the second time that he per-
jured himself before the grand
jury in connection with Garri-
son's investigation into the death
of President John F. Kennedy.
Andrews, who was suspended
as an assistant district attor-
ney in Jefferson Parish, alleged
Garrison used sworn testimony
of his (Andrews') before the
Warren Commission investiga-
tor, then placed him before the
grand jury and compelled him
"to answer questions designed
to trap him. full knowing that
plaintiff had no knowledge of
any conspiracy or any facts ma-
terial to a conspiracy to murder
John F. Kennedy.'
'DRUG OFFERED'
The suit further alleges that
Garrison sought to discredit him
by offering him sodium pente-
thol, hypnosis and a lie detector
test and making same known
to the public, knowing "that
none of the systems are of any
legal value whatsoever.'
Andrews said the district at-
torney caused him to be indict-
ed two separate times for per-
jury, knowing "the plaintiff has
and did not commit perjury at
any time."
Garrison, in his investiga-
tion, contended businessman
Clay Shaw is the same person
as "Clay Bertrand." whom
Andrews said asked him to
defend Lee Harvey Oswald
after the assassination.
Shaw was charged with par-
ticipating in a conspiracy to
murder the President. Shaw,
former managing director of the
International Trade Mart, de-
nied the charge and said he nev.
er used an alias.
In his suit, Andrews claims
Cont. in See. 1, Page 3, Col. 5
LA., WEDNESDAY MORNING. APRIL 19, 1967
SECTION ONE-PAGE THREE
ANDREWS FILES $100,000 SUIT
day to testify before the grand
bylined account Tuesday copy.
jury.
righted by the Dayton Daily
But she has never been served
News, of using the Kennedy as-
Continued from Page 1
with the court order ordering
sassination probe to further his
her here from her Omaha, Neb.,
political career.
Garrison is of the personal opin-
tion of Andrews' testimony of
home. Omaha authorities say
"Garrison came up with this
ion that Andrews can identify
July 21, 1964, before Wesley
she has left the state and can-
idea after the Warren Report
Clay Shaw as Bertrand, al-
J. Liebeler, assistant counsel
not be served.
came out and all the books
though he told Garrison "that
of the Warren Commission.
She was arrested two weeks
against It were being written.
Andrews pleaded innocent to
ago in Omaha and was freed
Garrison sees this as putting
there was no connection be-
the second indictment Tuesday
on a $1,000 bond after Garrison's
him in Washington
big
pol-
tween Clay Shaw and Clay Ber-
before Judge Frank Shea.
office swore out a material wit-
itics," Novel said.
trand."
Andrews' attorney, Sam Monk
ness warrant against her. She
"The whole Garrison investi-
'OPINION' HIT
Zelden, asked 10 days in which
was due to appear at a hearing
gation thing is fiction," Novel
Garrison's belief in this mat-
to file special pleadings and
in her behalf next week in
added. "I know the full story
ter is "arbitrary, capricious and
was given until May 1.
Omaha.
from working as the prosecu-
Under the bond, Mrs. Me-
tor's security chief."
not founded on any fact," the
Zelden called the second in-
suit contends.
dictment "just as bad as the
Maines was allowed to travel
(Garrison says Novel never
other one," said there were
outside the state and did not
worked for him.)
The suit alleges Garrison first
many inconsistencies in the in-
have to reappear until the hear-
Novel, wanted by Garrison as
revealed his investigation to
dictment and that the accusa-
ing.
a witness in the assassination
Andrews at a meeting Oct. 29,
tion "doesn't say in what re-
Mrs. McMaines denied testi-
inquiry and arrested in the Co-
1968, and between that date and
mony given by Russo in a pre-
lumbus area on a Louisiana
spect the accused is supposed
the first week of February Gar-
to have perjured himself."
liminary hearing for Shaw that
charge of conspiracy to commit
The district attorney's office
she attended a party at which
burglary, said Garrison wants
rison had frequent conversa-
quashed the earlier indictment
Shaw, Ferrie and Oswald were
him returned to New Orleans
tions with Andrews about the
because "I know too much
on grounds it was vague. The
present.
probe.
about him."
second indictment cited 2,000
Novel in Article
At one point in the story, No-
It states that Garrison as-
words of testimony Andrews
vel sald, "I think Garrison will
signed Andrews a code name,
gave to the investigative body.
Accuses Garrison
espose some CIA (Central Intel-
the name of an Army associate.
In part of the grand jury tes-
DAYTON, Ohio (AP) - Gor-
ligence Agency) operations in
and gave him two private phone
timony in which Andrews was
don Novel accused New Orleans
Louisiana." He did not amplify
numbers.
cited for perjury, he answered
Dist. Atty. Jim Garrison. in a this statement.
a question about Clay Bertrand
Exhibit B submitted with
S
and Clay Shaw this way:
the suit was a small piece of
wrinkled paper with a name,
"I get the impression you all
r
C
a home and office phone num-
want me to Identify Clay Shaw
ber and "used to be with me
as Clay Bertrand-I'll be honest
in the Army" written in long-
with you that is the impression
I
I get.
)
hand. The name appeared to
9
be Henry Reminer, but the
Assistant district attorney
only letters that were clear
Richard Burnes: "Well?"
in the last name were the
Andrews: "And I can't. I can't
"Re" and "er."
say he is and 1 can't say he
Following is a description of
ain't.
other exhibits submitted by
PLOT ALLEGED
Andrews:
Garrison contended Shaw, Os.
Exhibit A was an uncertified
wal and David W. Ferrie, a de-
copy of the first grand jury
ceased pilot, plotted to kill Ken-
indictment of Andrews. Exhibit
nedy.
C consisted of several photo-
Ferrie died Feb. 22 while un-
graphs.
der investigation: and Oswald
One was a photograph of two
was shot to death by Jack
pages of an open book. The top
Ruby, Dallas nightclub owner,
of one page was enscribed
two days after the assassination.
"Sheriff's Department. County
In other action, legal papers
of Dallas, Tex." Beneath the
were in the mails on their way
title was a notarized statement
to Ohio, seeking return of Gor-
of Eddie Piper of Dallas, made
don Novel to Louisiana. Novel,
Nov. 23, 1963. The statement,
sought as a material witness in
which was not entirely visible
the probe, is free on bond in
in the photograph, concerned
Columbus.
Lee Harvey Oswald.
Acting Gov. C. C. Aycock
ONE MUG SHOT
signed extradition papers Mon-
Another photograph was a po-
day.
lice mug shot of Emilio Galindo
The papers are not based
Santana, 20. 2654 Alvar, factory
on a fugitive material witness
worker, Carbarien, Cuba. On
charge, which is not 3 basis
the back of the photo, it said
for extradition in Ohio, but on
Santana was booked with two
a charge 01 conspiracy to bur-
counts of burglary Aug. 21,
glarize a Hourn munitions
1964.
bunker in 1961.
The other photos appeared to
Lillie Mae Moffett McMaines.
be enlarged reproductions of
a one-time girl friend of Garri-
pictures in 'the book oppsite
son's star witness Perry Ray.
Piper's statement,
mond Russo, was to have been
Exhibit D was a transcrip-
returned to New Orleans Tues-
FILES 3 MOTIONS
Andrews Seeking
Andrews Seeking
To Lift Probe Lid
To Lift Probe Lid
Continued from Page 1
our stories under oath and
Dean Andrews Jr. filed three motions today in Criminal
drews charges he did not tell
District Court simed at prying open the lid of secrecy
the truth when questioned
subject to cross-examination
S
clamped on the Orleans Parish grand jury's investigation Into
about whether Clay Bertrand
and the laws of perjury of
the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
was actually Clay Shaw.
the state of Louisiana,
Andrews, indicted by the jury for perjury, filed a motion
"This would give an impar-
for over, a motion to inspect
IN ANOTHER development
tial body of 12 men an oppor-
his testimony before the jury,
today, the district attorney's
tunity to decide once and for
and a motion for an order per-
office filed exceptions to a
petition by Shaw's attorneys
all what is fact and what is
mitting the disclosure of grand
to make magazine writer
fiction," he said.
jury testimony.
James Phelan a material wit-
Each of the motions is a dif-
Sclambra said that the dis-
ness in the case against
ferent legal maneuver de-
Shaw.
trict attorney's office will pay
signed to make public An-
Phelan is author of an ar-
for Phelan's transportation
drews' complete testimony be-
ticle which appeared in the
and lodging in New Orleans
fore the jury on March 16.
Saturday Evening Post that
and added that "I stand by
every statement I have ever
suggested that Perry Russo,
A SUSPENDED Jefferson
the man who testified he
made concerning Mr. Phelan
Parish assistant district at-
and his article.
heard Shaw, Ferrie and Os-
torney, Andrews was indicted
wald plot to kill Kennedy,
two weeks ago in an unpre-
may have been under a post-
hypnotic suggestion when he
cedented 11-foot-long charge
was questioned.
after an earlier indictment
Assistant Dist. Attys. James
was dismissed by the district
Alcock, Andrew Sciambra
attorney's office.
and Richard Burnes filed a
In his motions today, An-
written answer to the de-
drews argued that he is un-
fense's petition before Judge
able "to properly prepare his
Frank Shea. Judge Shea or-
defenses or to assist his coun-
dered a 10:30 a. m. hearing
sel."
Wednesday on the matter.
Andrews told the Warren
Commission in its investiga-
THE STATE argued that
tion of the Kennedy death that
there is no provision under
he received a telephone call
Louisiana law to take testi-
from a "Clay Bertrand" short-
mony of a witness in advance
ly after the assassination ask-
of a trial except in a pre-
ing him to defend Lee Harvey
liminary hearing, which has
Oswald, whom the commis-
already been held, or in the
sion says killed the President.
case of a witness who is im-
prisoned.
GARRISON HAS identified
The assistant district attor-
Bertrand and Clay L. Shaw,
ney contended that the only
retired managing director of
way testimony can be taken
International Trade Mart, as
in advance of the trial is be-
the same man.
fore the grand jury.
Shaw has been accused by
C
They noted that Phelan has
Garrison of conspiring with
said he is willing to testify
Oswald and the late David
and the "state is equally in-
W. Ferrie to kill Kennedy.
terested in obtaining his
Shaw has denied the charge
sworn statement."
3
and also that he used the
name of Clay Bertrand as
LATER THIS morning,
7
an alias,
Sciambra issued a statement
2
The indictment against An-
him. asking Phelan to testify with
16 (Turn to Page 17, Column 2)
In his article, Phelan said
tha. the first time Russo
talked with Sciambra. no
mention was made of the al-
leged meeting which Russo
attended in which he over-
heard the plot.
Sciambra has called the
article untrue.
In his statement, Sciambra
said that in law the only way
at the present time for Phe-
lan to testify under oath
"would be a joint appearance
by Mr. Phelan and myself
before the Orleans Parish
Grand Jury."
SCIAMBRA SAID Phelan
has stated over radio and
television broadcásts his will-
ingness to testify in New Or-
leans and added that "if Mr.
Phelan is sincere in his re-
quest, at this time I would
like to extend an invitation
to him to appear with me
voluntarily before the grand
jury where we can both tell
NS STATES-ITEM
MAY 2. 1967
DA 'Plot' Probe Unfair, Claims Ruby Attorney
The defense attorney who
tomorrow on a fugitive war-
represented Jack Ruby has
ferson
Parish
DA's
assistant,
predicted that Dist. Atty. Jim
rant issued by Garrison against
has been Indicted for perjury
Garrison's Kennedy death plot
a witness wanted in the in-
in connection with the investiga-
investigation will result in con-
vestigation.
tion.
victions "on peripheral
Gordon Novel, a 29-year-old
charges."
In a motion filed with Judge
former New Orleans bar own-
"I don't think it's right," Mel-
Frank G. Shea, Andrews asked
vin Belli of San Francisco, add-
er, is scheduled to go to court
for all testimony taken in his
ed. "It is unfair. 1 believe
there to show why he shouldn't
be returned to New Orleans.
appearance before the jury,
the Warren Commission was
plus the right to inspect all
right."
Garrison has charged Novel
Belli made his comments
and former New Orleans anti-
grand jury testimony in the
case.
yesterday at San Antonio, Tex.,
Castro leader Sergio Arcacha
Andrews contended the de-
where he spoke to a Law Day
Smith with conspiracy to bur-
dinner of the San Antonio Trial
glarize an explosives dump at
fense needs the testimony in
Houma in 1961.
order to prepare his case. He
Lawyers Association.
told the Warren Commission a
HE WAS THE chief attorney
Yesterday, another Garrison
for Ruby when the Dallas night
probe witness, Dean A. An-
mysterious man named Clay
club owner was convicted of
drews Jr., asked Criminal Dis-
Bertrand asked him to repre-
slaying Lee Harvey Oswald,
trict Court to lift the lid of
sent Oswald after Kennedy's
slaying. Garrison has said Ber-
who was named by the War-
secrecy on Grand Jury in-
trand and Shaw are the same
ren Commission as President
quiries into the case.
man. Andrews told grand
John F. Kennedy's lone assas-
jurors he could not connect the
sin.
ANDREWS, A suspended Jef- two.
Garrison charges Oswald con-
spired with the late David W.
Ferrie and 54-year-old retired
Orleans businessman Clay
Shaw to murder Kennedy at
llas in 1963.
31.
Ferrie, a onetime airline pi-
died Feb. 22-five days
after Garrison's investigation
JURY REINDICTS
became public. The coroner said
he died of natural causes.
Shaw is free on $10,000 bond
PROBE WITNESS
here awaiting trial.
MEANWHILE: a hearing is
Andrews Now Faces Five
scheduled at Columbus, Ohio,
Counts of Perjury
Dean A. Andrews Jr., once
indicted for perjury in Kennedy
assassination probe testimony,
was reindicted Wednesday by
the Orleans Parish Grand Jury
for the same perjury charge
and five counts were specified.
Additionally, the jury rein-
dicted Edgar Labat and Clif-
ton A. Poret for the 1950 rape
of a white woman. The Su-
preme Court Monday refused
to hear a Louisiana appeal
from a ruling by the Fifth
Circuit Court of Appeals,
which reversed the men's con-
victions.
Labat was convicted in 1953
for the rape of a white woman
in a dark alley in New Orleans
in 1950. Poret was convicted of
alding and abetting the rape.
The pair has been on death
row at Angola for 14 years.
Testimony by Andrews cen-
tered around whether he could
positively identify Clay L. Shaw,
prominent New Orleans busi-
nessman, as Clay Bertrand
who, Andrews told the Werren
Commission, called him Novem-
ber, 1963, and asked him to de-
fend the accused killer of Presi-
dent John F. Kennedy, Lee
Harvey Oswald.
This move on the part of the
distri attorney's office appar-
ently resulted from the fact
that Andrews" attorneys ques-
tioned the first undictment in
COUST, Unit the
POSOL
NEW ORLEANS STATES - ITEN
ECORDING TODAY'S STORY OF PROGRESS
Listen to The States-Item Chimes at 9, Noon and 5
WESTSIDE
-NO. 265
The Associated Press. North American News-
TUESDAY, APRIL 18, 1967
Second-Class Postage Paid
paper Allinnce, NEA Service and AP Wirephoto
at New Orleans, La.
PRICE 10c
EDITION
ean Andrews Again Pleads Not Guilt
ORLEANS
STATES
TODAY'S STORY OF PROGRESS
Listen to The States-Item Chimes at 9, Noon and 5
ss, North American News-
Service and AP Wirephoto
TUESDAY, APRIL 18, 1967
Second-Class Postage Paid
at New Orleans, La.
PRICE 10c
drews Again Pleads No
Attorney
Hints U.S.
Court Move
Rotund lawyer Dean
Adams Andrews Jr.
pleaded innocent for the
second time today to
charges that he lied be-
fore an Orleans Parish
Grand Jury investigating
an alleged conspiracy to
assassinate President
John F. Kennedy.
Immediately after the for-
mal arraignment in Criminal
District Court, his attorney
hinted that Andrews may go
into federal courts to charge
Orleans authorities with violat-
ing his civil rights.
A hip-talking, one-time as-
sistant district attorney in Jef-
ferson Parish, Andrews was
reindicted by the grand jury
last week in an 11-foot long
document which quoted 2,000
words of testimony.
TODAY HIS LAWYER, Sam
Monk Zelden, called the sec-
and indictment "just as bad
as the other one" which Zel-
den sought to strike down in
a hearing preempted when the
second charge came down.
The indictment filed Thurs-
day centered on questioning of
Andrews about a telephone
call from the mysterious Clay
Bertrand, who asked Andrews
to defend Lee Harvey Oswald.
Oswald was identified by the
Warren Commission as Presi-
dent Kennedy's lone assassin.
An assistant district after-
ney asked if Andrews could
connect Bertrand and 54-
year-old Clay L. Shaw, the
only man Dist. Atty. Jim
Garrison has charged with
complicity in Kennedy's mur-
der.
Andrews said he could not
identify Bertrand as Shaw,
Income
and added that Shaw ap-
peared to be taller than the
man he knew as Bertrand.
ZELDEN SAID, "WE'RE
just thinking about" going
(Turn to Page 10, Column 1)
Danha
TEN
TUESDAY
Andrews Again
Pleads Not Guilty
Continued from Page 1
Today was also the day that
into federal court. But he
Sandra Moffett, a one-time
said possible action there
girl friend of Perry Raymond
might concern "violation of
civil rights and other matters
Russo, star witness in the
pertaining thereto."
probe, was supposed to re-
As usual, Andrews wore his
turn to New Orleans.
dark glasses this morning
MISS MOFFETT, now Mrs.
when Judge Frank Shea
Lille Mae McMaines, was or-
mounted the bench of Crim-
dered last Monday to come
inal- District Court 27 min-
to New Orleans from her
utes ahead of schedule.
home in Omaha, Neb., to tes-
Zelden waived the reading
tify before the Grand Jury.
of the indictment, pleaded
However, it seemed unlike-
Andrews innocent and asked
ly that she would arrive to-
for 10 days in which to file
day, since she has never been
special pleadings. He was
served with the court order.
given until May 1.
Omaha authorities say that
Outside the courtroom, Zel-
she has left the state and can-
den answered reporters'
not be served.
questions and quipped, "As
She was arrested two weeks
strange as it may seem, Mr.
ago in Omaha and freed on
Andrews has nothing to say
a $1,000 bond after Garrison's
today."
office swore out a material
Andrews, whose loquacity
witness warrant against her.
usually is matched only by
She was due to appear at a
in penchant for jet-age
hearing in her behalf next
I
Long, condicied.
week in Omaha.
Zelden said there were
UNDER THE bond. Mrs.
I
many inconsistencies in the
McMaines was allowed to
indictment against Andrews,
travel outside the state and
and added that the accusa
did not have to reappear un-
tion "doesn't say in what re-
til the hearing.
spect the accused is supposed
Andrews was expected to
to have perjured himself."
plead not guilty to the charge
as he did to the earlier Indict-
IN OTHER action in Garri-
ment.
son's probe today, legal pa-
In all probability, the ar-
pers were In the malis on
raignment will be a routine
their way to Ohio, seeking
procedure, in which Andrews
the return of Gordon Novel to
may or may not waive the
Louisiana.
reading of the verbose indict-
Novel, sought as a witness
ment, plead not guilty and
in the probe, is free on bond
ask for time to file pleadings
in Columbus. Acting Gov. C.
in the case,
C. "Taddy" Aycock signed
the extradition papers for his
[
return late yesterday.
The extradition papers are
based not on a fugitive ma-
terial witness charge, which
IS not a basis for extradition
in Ohio, but on a charge of
conspiracy to burglarize a
Ci
Houma munitions bunker in
1961.
MO
day
arme
Andrews Seeks
To
Lift Quiz Lid
Dean Andrews Jr.
filed three motions to-
NEW ORLEANS
day in Criminal District
Court aimed at prying
open the lid of secrecy
clamped on the Orleans
STATES - ITEM
Parish grand jury's in-
vestigation into the as-
sassination of President
John F. Kennedy.
FINAL
SPORTS
Andrews, indicted by the
MARKETS
jury for perjury, flied a mo-
tion for oyer, a motion to in-
VOL. 90-NO. 276
MONDAY, MAY 1, 1967
PRICE 10c
spect his testimony before the
jury, and a motion for an or-
der permitting the disclosure
of grand jury testimony.
Each of the motions is a dif-
ferent legal maneuver de-
signed to make public An-
drews' complete testimony be-
he
fore the jury on March 16.
ed
to
A SUSPENDED Jefferson
Parish assistant district at-
ICC-
torney, Andrews was indicted
nes
two weeks ago in an unprec-
25-
edented II-foot-long charge
after an earlier indictment
1)
was dismissed by the district
attorney's office.
In his motions today, An-
drews argued that he is un-
able "to properly prepare his
defenses or to assist his coun-
sel."
Andrews told the Warren
Commission in its Investiga-
tion of the Kennedy death that
he received a telephone call
from a "Clay Bertrand" short-
ly after the assassination ask-
ing him to defend Lee Harvey
(Turn to Page 17, Column 2)
Andrews Seeking
To Lift Probe Lid
Continued from Front Page
Oswald, whom the commis-
said that in law the only way
sion says killed the President.
at the present time for Phe-
lan to testify under oath
GARRISON HAS identified
"would be a joint appearance
Bertrand and Clay L. Shaw,
by Mr. Phelan and myself
retired managing director of
before the Orleans Parish
International Trade Mart, as
Grand Jury."
the same man.
SCIAMBRA SAID Phelan
Shaw has been accused by
has stated over radio and
Garrison of conspiring with
Oswald and the late David
television broadcasts his will-
W. Ferrie to kill Kennedy.
Ingness to testify in New Or-
Shaw has denied the charge
leans and added that "if Mr.
and also that he used the
Phelan is sincere in his re-
quest, at this time I would
name of Clay Bertrand as
like to extend an Invitation
an alias.
to him to appear with me
The indictment against An-
voluntarily before the grand
drews charges he did not tell
jury where we can both tell
the truth when questioned
our stories under oath and
about whether Clay Bertrand
subject to cross-examination
was actually Clay Shaw.
and the laws of perjury of
the state of Louisiana,
IN ANOTHER development
"This would give an impar-
today, the district attorney's
tial body of 12 men an oppor-
office filed exceptions to a
tunity to decide once and for
petition by Shaw's attorneys
all what is fact and what is
to make magazine writer
fiction," he said.
James Phelan a material wit-
Sciambra said that the dis-
ness in the case against
Shaw.
trict attorney's office will pay
Phelan is author of an ar-
for Phelan's transportation
ticle which appeared in the
and lodging in New Orleans
Saturday Evening Post that
and added that "I stand by
suggested that Perry Russo,
every statement I have ever
the man who testified he
made concerning Mr. Phelan
heard Shaw, Ferrié and Os-
and his article."
wald plot to kill Kennedy,
may have been under a post-
hypnotic suggestion when he
was questioned.
Assistant Dist. Attys. James
Alcock, Andrew Sciambra
and Richard Burnes filed a
written answer to the de-
fense's petition before Judge
Frank Shea, Judge Shea or-
dered a 10:30 a. m. hearing
Wednesday on the matter.
THE STATE argued that
there is no provision under
Louisiana law to take testi-
mony of a witness in advance
of a trial except in a pre-
liminary hearing, which has
already been held, or in the
case of a witness who is im-
prisoned.
The assistant district attor-
ney contended that the only
way testimony can be taken
in advance of the trial is be-
fore the grand jury.
They noted that Phelan has
said he is willing to testify
and the "state is equally in-
1
terested in obtaining his
1
sworn statement."
(
LATER THIS morning.
ii
Sciambra issued a statement
rt
asking Phelan to testify with
Si
him.
If
In his article, Phelan said
S
that the first time Russo
C
talked with Sciambra, no
C
mention was made of the al-
t
leged meeting which Russo
attended in which be over-
heard the plot.
Sciambra has called the
article untrue.
Sciambra
9/20/76
IN PARTICULAR, RE:
Re: 1976 Affidant of Kerry Therely :
BANSTER, FERRIE, MEXICO
CITY of ROSSELLI)
Thornley admits:
1
arrives in New Onleans in "early 1961" Bay of Pige
occurred in April, 1961. N.O. was used as k logistical base +
training area for anti- Castro activities by U.S. intelligence in BOLTON
the early 1960's. Examples: sttempted purchase of Ford pick mp FORD
BOLTON
truck in Oswald's name while he was still in Russia; training of 1961
anti- Cartro guerrilles northy Labe Pontelertain, etc.). Thornley
departs from New Onleave (fn area Arlington, Virginia, to
await his testimony in Washington before the Warran Communion
in December, 1963)
N
In new Onleana, in 1961, Thornly "accidentally" meets
Guy Banuter, discusses with him the book he 's writing about
Lee Oxwald.
j
Ram In 1962, Thornley "accidentally meets David
Ferrie ("d'm nearly dure that no significant conversation
transfaired ")
4
In 5 eptember of
1963
Thornley visits Matrin City.
("Fn
many years had wanted to visit Mexico
City ")
5
Also in themly
September, 1963
Thornly is in
new Orleans during same period Oswald was (Lates, he
says "d began to realize that others might have good reason for
suspecting me of being party an assashin the counpirary."
6
From 1964 intel June of 966, Thornley worked at
Isen Towers apartments, Lua Angeles, where he got to know John
Rosselli, who happened to live there. (They have conversation
speculating about the assossmention).
N.O. S-I
Clay Berfrand
Never Existed,
Says Andrews
By ROSEMARY JAMES
Dean Adams Andrews Jr., the
New Orleans attorney charged
with perjury in Dist. Atty. Jim
Garrison's Kennedy assassina-
tion probe, said today that the
mysterious Clay Bertrand
"never existed".
Farrison has charged that re-
tired businessman Clay L.
Shaw, using the name Bertrand
as an alias participated in a
conspiracy to murder the Presi-
dent.
The name Clay Bertrand was
first mentioned by Andrews,
who told the Warren Commis-
sion that a man by that name
called him to defend Lee Harvey
Oswald, accused assassin of
President Kennedy, after the
murder in Dallas Nov. 22, 1963.
TODAY, ANDREWS, speaking
at the Press Club of New Or-
leans, said there is only one im-
portant point about Bertrand
and that point is:
"Clay Shaw ain't Clay Ber-
trand. Amen."
Andrews was indicted for
perjury after he refused to
identify Shaw as Bertrand for
the Orleans Parish Grand Jury.
The hip-talking lawyer, wear-
ing his ever present dark
glasses and a fresh sun tan,
said: "Years ago I was intro-
duced to a fellow at a gay wed-
ding reception. The boy never
used the name Clay Bertrand.
I was just introduced to him
as Clay Bertrand."
Andrews said that he had
"ducked the Warren Commis-
sion" as long as he could. The
heavy-set lawyer, speaking in
the jazzman's jargon, said he
told commission investigators:
"Look, man, I don't want to
talk. I'm going to tell you a
bunch of lies. 'Will you tell
them under oath?' they say, and
I say, 'Be my guest.'"
ANDREWS outlined his cir-
cumstances as a man indicted
in an investigation which has
drawn national attention.
He said that you have to get
used to attention like, "the old
lady in the elevator who sticks
you in the back and says' Why
don't you tell Big Jim the
truth?'
Andrews said that anyone
who gets charged with a crime
has several courses of action.
"In some instances you hustle a
fix
Me, though, I'm a
harpooned whale dragged P on
the beach, I got nowhere to
go."
HE SAID THAT trying "to
duck the press" is a waste of
time and you can "no com-
ment
no comment
no comment" or you can "open
up your mouth and put your
foot in it," ne said.
MEMORANDUM
April 4, 1967
TO:
JIM GARRISON
DISTRICT ATTORNEY
FROM:
WILLIAM GURVICH
SPECIAL AIDE
SUBJECT:
DEAN ANDREWS INTERVIEW 3/2/67
On 5:56 P.M., 2 March 1967, DEAN ANDREWS,
accompanied by his attorney Sam Zelden, was interviewed in the
Office of the District Attorney, Parish of Orleans, by Assistant
District Attorneys James Alcock, Richard Burnes, Adnrew Sciambra
and Special Aide William Gurvich. "This interview was tape-
recorded with the knowledge and consent of Mr. ANDREWS. While
awaiting the transcription of that tape, this memorandum is
respectfully submitted.
ANDREWS stated he is an Assistant District Attorney
in the Twenty-Fourth Judicial District of Louisiana.
He further stated he had appeared before the
Warren Commission in their investigation of the assassination of
President Kennedy and furnished testimony relative to his
knowledge of the accused assassin, LEE HARVEY OSWALD.
ANDREWS said OSWALD came to his office in May or
June 1963 for legal assistance. From memory, ANDREWS said he
probably saw OSWALD three or four times. ANDREWS' office was in
627 Maison Blanche Building, New Orleans, when OSWALD came with
three young men who were obvious homosexuals. The latter were
in some minor trouble with the local police but it was not
necessary for him to actually represent them. ANDREWS stated he
was well known in the French Quarter and had represented homo-
sexuals on several occasions.
When questioned about his testimony on 21 July 1964
before the Warren Commission, wherein he said there were one or
two homosexuals, ANDREWS studied the Commission Report for five
minutes (6:03-6:08 P.M) and the interview resumed.
ANDREWS said his figures to us were accurate and
added that one of these "gay kids" (homosexuals) was a Mexican.
He said the Mexican was quiet and did not talk. ANDREWS recalls
having made a file on this but did not retain it.
According to ANDREWS, OSWALD identified himself
and sat on ANDREWS' left during their first meeting. He doesn't
remember if the others were identified.
-1-
The last time ANDREWS saw OSWALD was in front of
the Maison Blanche Building when OSWALD was distributing pro-
Castro leaflets. ANDREWS approached OSWALD to attempt to collect
a delinquent fee but OSWALD had no money to pay him. ANDREWS
recalls a Mexican being with OSWALD at this time. This Mexican
was about 5'10", had a short, flattop haircut that tapered in
back, and had an athletic-type build. ANDREWS said a Mexican
was always with OSWALD. Although the Mexican was not identified
or introduced and never spoke, ANDREWS said he could recognize
him.
Some photographs were shown to ANDREWS for possible
recognition or identification but to no avail. ANDREWS said he
could not see the necks of the subjects in the photographs which
would be necessary as the Mexican with OSWALD had an unusually
strong-looking neck.
ANDREWS added that he also knew DAVID FERRIE and
had recently been contacted by him to settle a brake tag viola-
tion.
Referring back to OSWALD, ANDREWS stated it was
about 5:30 P.M. when OSWALD and the three others came to see him.
There were no introductions other than by OSWALD. When asked
why they came to him ANDREWS said someone had recommended him.
ANDREWS was asked if he recalled the Warren
Commission asking him about CLAY BERTRAND and ANDREWS replied,
"Where is that?" A copy of the Report was shown to him and the
interview resumed after a two-minute pause at 6:21 P.M.
Stating he was now ready to discuss CLAY BERTRAND,
he referred to the Rendevous Bar which he described as a
"swinging place" and was located in the French Quarter where the
Red Garter is now. ANDREWS explained he lived in the Pontalba
Apartments when in school and met many homosexuals.
ANDREWS said the young men with OSWALD used his
phone to call someone and when contact was made, handed the
phone to him. As ANDREWS listened, a voice said, "Whatever they
owe, I'll pay. ANDREWS said he had heard this voice and name
before under similar circumstances. When asked if he knew who
CLAY BERTRAND was ANDREWS said he didn't know for sure. Asked
if he ever had any financial dealings with CLAY BERTRAND, ANDREWS
replied he had not because the "kids" always came back and paid.
He said BERTRAND never owed him any money.
Asked if he had ever seen or met BERTRAND, ANDREWS
said he had twice and then corrected it to once. ANDREWS said
he saw him in a bar on Dauphine Street near Esplanade Avenue. He
said BERTRAND got up and left the bar when ANDREWS came in.
ANDREWS was asked what made him think that man was CLAY BERTRAND
and he said he could not recall.
At 6:26 P.M. ANDREWS was shown the Report where he
is questioned about BERTRAND owing him money. ANDREWS replied
that he was vague then because he was being pushed in the same
manner as we were pushing in our interview.
-2-
He said he recognized CLAY BERTRAND's voice on the
phone as he had heard it before and the voice was deep, intelli-
gent and educated. ANDREWS said BERTRAND had "command of the
King's English" and didn't sound homosexual or. effeminate.
When asked to describe the person he saw on
Dauphine Street and concluded it was BERTRAND, ANDREWS asked for
a short break to refresh his memory at 6:29 P.M.
Resuming, ANDREWS said he "didn't carry a tape
measure" with him. Finally he said this man had grey hair and
ruddy complexion. ANDREWS added that he though BERTRAND was
bi-sexual. At this point he recalled the bar was Cosmos's.
ANDREWS said he had actually seen this man twice. The first time
was at a "gay bar" (homosexual hangout) -"maybe" Dixie's or
"maybe on Chartres". ANDREWS said he only "assumed" it was CLAY
BERTRAND on this first meeting.
ANDREWS said he was confined to Hotel Dieu Hospital
in New Orleans on the day of the assassination. While there he
received a phone call from CLAY BERTRAND who asked him to go to
Dallas, Texas and defend LEE HARVEY OSWALD who had been arrested
and accused of murder.
At this point ANDREWS recalled that on OSWALD's
visit to his office CLAY BERTRAND told ANDREWS on the phone that
he would pay the expenses. ANDREWS said the exact words were,
"I'll personally handle fee."
ANDREWS was asked if he knew CLAY SHAW and he said
he had seen pictures of him but they had never met. Asked if
BERTRAND and SHAW were similar in physical description, ANDREWS
said he "wouldn't know". He said he had K no file on BERTRAND.
ANDREWS then said we could call Regis ennedy of the F.B.I. and
John Rice adding that he "could care less".
He said all the homosexual young men he represented
knew BERTRAND's number and would call him from ANDREWS' office.
ANDREWS added that he "handled" so many homosexuals because his
"reputation preceded him". ANDREWS said he probably met fifteen
or twenty homosexuals who knew CLAY BERTRAND. He cannot remember
any of their names.
During this interview, several photographs of
various persons, including CLAY SHAW, were shown to ANDREWS.
Several names were also mentioned for recognition. This was to
no avail.
The interview concluded at 7:23 P.M, 2 March 1967.
WILLIAM GURVICH
WG/leb
-3-
DEAN ADAM ANDREWS, JR.
All references unless otherwise noted are to Vol. XI, the testimony of
Andrews taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal
and Conti Sts., New Orleans. Andrews was questioned by Wesley J. Liebeler,
Assistant Counsel for the Warren Commission.
Q. Did you have occasion to meet LEE HARVEY OSWALD?
A. Yes, during the Summer of 1963. (p. 326)
Q. Under what circumstances?
A. He came to my office in connection with a less than honorable discharge.
(p. 326)
Q. Was he alone?
A. No, he was accompanied by young homosexuals who were Mexicans or Cubans.
(p. 326)
Q. Did OSWALD return to your office?
A. Yes, at least three times, possibly five times, including the initial
visit. (p. 328)
Q. Was he accompanied by anyone when he visited you subsequent to the first
visit?
A.
Yes, I think he came back with one of the Latin youths who was with him
on the first visit. (p. 326)
Q.
Did you see him on any occasion outside of your office?
A. Yes, when he was in front of the Maison Blanche At building giving out
pro-Castro leaflets. (p. 328)
Q.
Did you talk with him on that occasion?
A.
Yes, I reminded him that he owed me $25. (p. 328)
DEAN ADAMS ANDREWS, JR.
Q. Did you have any other discussion with him regarding finances?
A. Yes, he told me he was being paid $25 a day for handing out the leaflets.
(p. 328)
Q. Do you have any doubt in your mind that it was LEE HARVEY OSWALD who
was in your office?
A. I don't believe SO. This is him (making reference to OSWALD on Garner
Exh. No. 1). (p. 329)
Q. Did you testify before the Warren Commission on XXXXX/XX//XXXX July 21,19642
A. Yes. (p. 325)
Q. Did you testify before the Warren Commission, "This boy (referring to
LEE HARVEY OSWALD) could have connived the deal, but I think he is a
patsy. Somebody else pulled the trigger. "?
A. Yes. (p.330)
Q. Did you testify before the Warren Commission that you were going to find
CLAY BERTRAND?
A. Yes. (p. 330)
Q. Did you testify before the Warren Commission that your office was
burglarized and that you were unable to find any written record of your
dealings with LEE HARVEY OSWALD?
A. Yes. (p. 331)
Q. Did you testify before the Commission that you received a phone call from
CLAY BERTRAND and did he ask you if you would go to Dallas to defend
LEE HARVEY OSWALD?
A. Yes. (p. 331)
Q. Did you testify before the Warren Commission that you recognized the
voice as being the voice of CLAY BERTRAND?
A. Yes, (p. 331)
Q. Did you testify that CLAY BERTRAND is "the one who calls on behalf of
gay kids normally either to obtain bonds or parole for them" and that
you "would assume that he (CLAY BERTRAND) was the one
that originally sent OSWALD and the gay kids, these Mexicanos to the
office"?
A. Yes. (p. 331)
Q. When did yaureceive the telephone call from CLAY BERTRAND asking you
to defend LEE HARVEY OSWALD?
A. It was Friday or Saturday. (p. 332) Probably I received the phone
call on Saturday, November 23, 1963, before 4:00 P.M. (pp. 332, 333)
Q. Did you testify on July 21, 1964, that about six weeks prior to that
date you saw CLAY BERTRAND and that he ran away?
A. Yes. (p. 334)
Q. Did you speak with FBI Agent Regis Kennedy on December 5, 1963?
A. Yes, (p. 335)
Q. On that occasion did you describe CLAY BERTRAND as being approximately
6'1" or 6'2"?
A. Yes. (p. 335)
Q. Did you say that he was well dressed?
A. Yes, (p. 335)
Q. Yet when you testified before the Warren Commission did you state that
CLAY BERTRAND was only 5'8" tall?
A. Yes. (p. 334)
DEAN ADAM ANDREWS, JR.
Q. By giving a total dissimilar description to the Warren Commission in
July of 1964 from the one you had given to the FBI in December of 1963
were you trying to mislead the Commission and thus protect the man you
knew as CLAY PERTRAND?
A.
Q. In fact, did you tell anyone that you were sorry you had talked to the
Warren Commission about CLAY BERTRAND and that subsequent to your
testimony before the Warren Commissionyou had received a telephone call
from Washington, D.C., and that you were told that"a hole would be put"
in your head if you ever discussed the matter again?
A.
Q.
Did you describe CLAY BERTRAND to the Warren Commission as being bi-sexual?
A. Yes. (p. 335)
Q.
Did you tell the Warren Commission that CLAY BERTRAND referred cases
to you in the past?
A. Yes, (P. 335)
Q. Did the FBI Agents pressure you to the point where you reacted to the
pressure by stating, "Write what you want, that I am nuts, I don't care"?
A. Yes. "I have been playing cops and robbers with them. You can tell when
the steam is on. They are on you like the plague. They never leave.
They are like cancer, eternal." (p. 334)
Q.
Did you tell the Warren Commission that it was your belief that CLAY
BERTRAND ran away from you when you saw him six weeks before your
testimony because the FBI was seeking him or because he owed you money
as a result of your representation of persons referred to you by him?
A. Yes. (p. 337)
DEAN ADAM ANDREWS, JR.
Q. Is it now your position that CLAY BERTAND was in fact a figment of your
imagination as the FBI reported?
when
&. Is it not true that ***** you received the telephone call from CLAY
BERTRAND you were confined to a New Orleans Hospital, HOTEL DIEU, and
unable to go to Dallas to represent OSWALD?
A. Yes.
Q. Is it not true that after you received the telephone call from CLAY
BERTRAND since you were unable to go to Dallas because you had
pneumonia you called another New Orleans lawyer, MONK ZELDON and asked
him if he would "be interested in a retainer and go over to Dallas and
see about that boy (LEE HARVEY OSWALD) ?
A.
Yes. (p. 337)
Q.
Did you testify that you were looking for CLAY BERTRAND, even during
July of 1964 because, "I want to find out why he called me on behalf
of this boy after the President was assassinated"?
A.
Yes. (p. 337)
Q.
Did you testify before the Commission that BERTRAND owed you money in 1964
foolegal work that you had done over a period of years?
A.
Yes. (p. 337)
N.O MAY 15,1967
Andrews Can't Get Jury
club owner who shot him to
death,
GARRISON SAID Friday he
Transcript Under Law--DA
plans, at some future date, to
disclose other significant coded
entries in Oswald's notebook,
Dist. Atty. Jim Garrison's of-
entire testimony given to the
printed in its entirety in the
fice said today efforts by Dean
jury in March.
that vital portions of the tes-
Warren Report.
A. Andrews Jr. to obtain a
The grand jury charged An-
timony are missing from the in-
The code, Garrison explained.
transcript of Andrews' grand
drews with perjury and he was
dictment and that it is defec-
involves transposition of digits
jury testimony in the Kennedy
indicted last month in an 11-
tive.
according to a definite pattern.
assessination investigation can-
font-long indictment prepared
Neither Andrews, a hip-talk-
then addition or subtraction of
not be successful under Louisi-
by Carrison's office. which
ing lawyer, Wind wears a per-
numbers familiar to Oswald
quoted extensively from An-
petual mask of sunglasses, nor
On the broadcast from Wash-
ana law.
drews' testimony.
Zelden was in court as Asst.
ington yesterday, Long com-
Andrews, suspended assistant
Dist. Atty. James Alcock hand-
mented, "I think you would say
Jefferson Parish district attor-
ANDREWS AND his attorney,
ed the state's answers to Judge
it was somewhat strange that
ney, sought a transcript of his Sam Monk Zelden, complained
Frank Shea.
those two men whom Garrison
says were in conspiracy both
ANDREWS APPEARED in
had that number listed In their
Sit
the courtronm earlier and spoke
papers."
20
with Judge Shea for approxi-
Salvador Panzeca, one of
mately 15 minutes.
Shaw's attorneys, said today
He left when be was told his
that the figure PA 19106 in Lee
motions would not be argued
Harvey Oswald's address book
today. Judge Shea tentatively
represented a telephone num-
set the hearing at 10:30 a. m.
ber in Russia.
next Monday,
He said Shaw's attorneys will
He sald Andrews had indi-
prove this and will also bring
cated be might file a supple-
Lee Odom into court either on
mentary motion to quash the
or before Shaw's trial date: He
indictment later this week, in
sald the numbers, although the
which case the hearing would
be reset for May 22.
other. same, had no relation to each
The district attorney's an-
So far, investigation in Dal-
swers this morning were aimed
las has turned up no evidence
at Andrews' motion to quash
of a Lee Odom. whose name
and three motions aimed at ob-
was listed in Shaw's address
taining the grand jury testi.
book with the notation PO
mony.
19106, Dallas, Tex
In the answers, the state said
Meanwhile, Alvin Beauboeuf
it had "fully conformed to the
was scheduled to appear this
requirements
of the Code
afternoon at police headquar-
of Criminal Procedure, and that
ters to sign a statement re-
none of the constitutional rights
garding an alleged Garrison-
of the defendant have been
office attempt to bribe him.
violated
LONG EXPRESSED long-
THE DOCUMENT went on to
standing doubts that Oswald
state that "the state is pro-
had carried out the assassina-
hibited from revealing any
tion alone and said he feels
more of the transcribed testi-
that although Garrison should
mony which was given by the
seek the cooperation of the Fed-
accused to the grand jury than
eral Bureau of Investigation. in
such testimony as is necessary
his probe, he is justified In con-
to indict the accused for per-
ducting an independent inves-
jury.
tigation
"All remaining transcribed
The murder of Kennedy. Long
testimony is protected by 3
contended, "was not a crime
cloak of secrecy
against federal law. It was a
Meanwhile, Sen. Russell B
crime against the law of Lou-
Long said yesterday he feels
isiana. It was a crime against
Garrison has turned up "signifi-
the law of Texas."
cant evidence" of a conspiracy
"Do you really think," one
in the assassination of Presi-
reporter asked Long, apparently
dent John F. Kennedy.
half-jokingly, "that the New Or-
In answer to questions on
leans district attorney is cap-
CBS television's Face the Na.
able of conducting a more thor-
tion" yesterday, Long said an
ough investigation than the
important new development in
FBI?"
the case came Friday when
The senator replied. "I'm
Garrison reported that Jack
just saying they wouldn't have
Ruby's unlisted telephone num-
handled it the way he has
ber, in coded form, had been
handled it
Furthermore.
found In notebooks owned by
let's be fair about it. He felt
Clay L. Shaw and accused pres-
it was his case and not theirs."
idential assassin Lee Harvey
Oswald.
ANOTHER REPORTER
asked whether. if Garrison dis-
GARRISON SEIZED Shaw's
proved the findings of the War-
notebook and other personal ef-
ren Commission. he might be
fects in February, after he ar-
seeking high political office,
rested the 54-year-old former
perhaps conflicting with the am-
manager of the International
bitions of the senator.
Trade Mart on a charge of con-
Long laughed and replied.
spiring to assassinate Kennedy.
"You mean he might want to
Since that time Shaw has
run for my job? I think that
been bound over for trial after
everybody ought to do what his
a three-judge hearing, then in-
duty requires. And if you do the
S
dicted for conspiracy by the
job that the people elect you to
Orleans Parish Grand Jury.
do, and you do what's right as
Long said yesterday that in his
your conscience sees it, the elec-
mind the alleged telephone num-
tions tend to take care of them-
ber is definite evidence that a
selves."
conspiracy existed. The Warren
"Do you really think Ruby,
Commission was able to estab-
Oswald and Shaw were involved
lish no link between Oswald
in a conspiracy?" an interview-
and Jack Ruby, the late Dallas
er queried.
"I'M SURE THERE was a
conspiracy." Long answered,
adding that national interest in
Garrison's investigation has
been high for some time.
053X
ONDX
ITTM NO. 2-937-67
JEFFERSON PARISH SHERIFF'S OFFICE
DATE OF ARRES 2/5/67
ARREST REPORT
DISTRICT East
TIME OF ARREST 10:20 FM
LAST NAME
FIRST
MIDDLE
ADDRESS
Clark
Thomas
Levis
240 Orton Ave, Notion In.
ALTAS OR
PLACE OF ARREST
NICKNAME Tommy
3500 Division St., Met. La.
CHARGE
ARRESTED WITH
14:107 secs. 5,7,88 Vagrancy
1 4:69 Possession stolon property
Warren Bourgious, W/K, 16
BIRTHPLACE
BIRTHDATE
AGE
COLOR
HGT.
WGT.
EYES
HAIR
COMPLEX
H.O.L.A.
1/1/18
10
W/U
6/9
137
green
hrm
fair
OCCUPATION
SCARS, MARKS, TATTOOS, ETC.
SOCIAL SECURITY NO.
Lab.
II/V
39-74-3034
WITNESS
ADDRESS
Dep. E. Gerner
3236 Fouvate Not To,
WITNESS
ADDRESS
Deb. A. Crossen
7919 St. Charles Ave, N.O.L.A.
WITNESS 200s C. Wereittin
ADDRESS,
541 "vman Dr., Ne Is.
WITNESS
ADDRESS
FINGERPRINT CLASSIFICATION
B of I No.
DISPOSITION
27111
DETAILS OF ARREST
Above subject arrested after he was observed coming from the rear of
Studio Arms #5, 3500 Division. Subject could not explain his presence
there-at, he stated that no is presently membloved and that it ima
been aunrox. 3weeks to a month since his list employment. subject in
known by officers to be a hibutual loiter of the streets, Prior to
this arrest subject was arrested on the same date 2/5/67 at 3:50 AM
for same charge of Vagrancy under secs. 5 & 7 also with the same
White Male juvenile After investigation at the East Bank Jail sub.
admitted to the fact that he had stolen a Continental Oil Co. Credit
card 36-284-3245 (non-euniring) beloncing to one David D. Martin Sr.
from David Ferrie. W/M. 45 residing 3330 Louisiana Ave,, N.O.L.A.
$250 Band by storleg on 2/6/67
Posted by Hebert Bonel Co,
Weared 2/5/67
Paroled
Bonded
DESK SERGEANT
L. Karna
OUTK
ITEM NO. 2-783-67
JEFFERSON PARISH SHERIFF'S OFFICE
DATE OF ARREST 2/5/67
DISTRICT East
ARREST REPORT
TIME OF ARREST 4:00 AM
LAST NAME
FIRST
MIDDLE
ADDRESS
Clark,
Thomas
Louis
240 Orion St., Metu, Lo
LIAS OR
PLACE OF ARREST
NICKNAME
3600 Vets. Hwy.
CHARGE
ARRESTED WITH
14:107 sec. 5 & 7 Vagrancy by no means of
support, & Habutual loafer of streets.
Warren E. Bourgeois, W/M,16
BIRTHPLACE
BIRTHDATE
AGE
COLOR
HGT.
WGT.
EYES
HAIR
COMPLEX
N.O.L.A.
1/1/48
19
W/M
5/9
137
hzl
brn
fair
OCCUPATION
SCARS, MARKS, TATTOOS, ETC.
SOCIAL SECURITY NO.
Lab.
II/V
439-74-3034
WITNESS
ADDRESS
Dep. E. Garner
3738 Bauvais
WITNESS DCD. A. Crossen
ADDRESS
7919 St. Charles Ave., N.O.L.A.
WITNESS
ADDRESS
WITNESS
ADDRESS
FINGERPRINT CLASSIFICATION
B of I No.
DISPOSITION
271111
DETAILS OF ARREST
Above subject abserved byb arresting officers standing in the 3600
block of Vetrans Hi thway with above white male juvenile.
Upon questioning subjects P.S to their presence it was learned
that nàither had a place to sleep or present employment. Subjects
were placed under arrest and transported to east district.
Neither subject could account for their presence at time of
questioning.
Pauled by andrews to make bond 2/8/07
released on 2/5/67 at 0435 A.M.
Paroled. to Dave Ferier
Paroled
Bonded
DESK SERGEANT
L. Kerna
16
SHERIEFS
JEFFERSON
22.11
FPC NONE
27111
Thomas Lewis Clark WM 29
Pob N.O.Ls.Res 240 Orion St Met La.
Occ Labor
Comp Fair
Hair Brn
Dob 1-1-48
Hgt 5'9"
Wt. 137
Eyes Hzl
Oks Med
Nose
Arr 2-5-67
Chg Vag.
MEMORANDUM
December 4, 1967
TO:
JIM GARRISON, District Attorney
FROM:
TOM BETHELL
RE:
AL CLARK
*
On Sunday, December 3, 1967, I spoke to
AL CLARK at Dixieland Hall, and asked him about his state-
ment to HAROLD WEISBERG that he had seen DEAN ANDREWS
talking to LEE HARVEY OSWALD.
CLARK stated that when he saw OSWALD on
television after the assassination his immediate reaction
was that he had seen him before. After thinking about it
he came to the conclusion that he had seen OSWALD with
ANDREWS. ANDREWS, CLARK recollects, was in the habit of
bringing his friends into the back door of Dixieland Hall,
and he believes he saw ANDREWS and OSWALD sitting together
in the patio right behind Dixieland Hall.
CLARK said he did not mention this before
because he thought it was common knowledge that ANDREWS
knew OSWALD, and he didn't think it was important. ANDREWS
had always told him that he knew OSWALD, and therefore he
attached no significance to it.
CLARK did not see OSWALD on television in
New Orleans when he passed out leaflets in front of the
Trade Mart.
On March 9, 1967, PRENTILES M. DAVIS, JR., serial
number RA6925060 who is retired from the United States Army on
a TDRL and whose identification card shows that he was born
on October 15, 1920, and that he is 195 lbs, and stands 5'8" tall
and has brown hair and brown eyes, was interviewed.
DAVIS was interviewed and he advised that he retired
temporarily from the United States Army in 1960. He stated that
he went to work for DEAN ANDREWS in 1961 when ANDREWS had his
office in the Maison Blanche Building.
He stated that his duties for DEAN ANDREWS was "sort
of bull dogging". He stated that he investigated automobile
accidents, criminal investigations, and traced down genealogy.
He stated that he did all types of investigating for ANDREWS.
He stated further that EVE SPRINGER who resides on Henry Clay
Avenue was the secretary at the time that he became employed with
ANDREWS.
DAVIS stated when questioned about the identities of
homosexuals that ANDREWS represented advised that "he could say
that he did conduct an investigation on homosexuals for ANDREWS
but at this time he will say no."
He stated further that you would have to know ANDREWS
and realize that DEAN ANDREWS ran a sort of DAVID RUNUN operation
that his clients were mostly persons who were either homosexuals,
pimps, prostitutes, or huslers from Bourbon Street.
DAVIS stated that he saw LEE HARVEY OSWALD in DEAN
ANDREWS' office in the Maison Blanche Building. He stated that
OSWALD was in company with four or five other individuals and
that two or three of these individuals were of Cuban or Mexican
extraction. He stated that OSWALD was merely one of the group
of characters that came in together. He stated that he did not
know any of the other persons. DAVIS stated that shortly there-
after DEAN ANDREWS asked him, DAVIS, about procedures in handling
a court marshall as he would know because he was retired as a
1/Sgt. of the United States Army. He stated that ANDREWS wanted
to correct a dishonorable discharge for OSWALD.
DAVIS further stated that DEAN ANDREWS had so many
homosexuals, prostitutes, pimps coming into the office that it
was hard to keep track of them. He stated, "you have to remember
ANDREWS was making his living off these people".
When questioned if he knew CLAY BERTRAND, DAVIS stated
no. He stated that he had heard the name CLAY BERTRAND. When
asked specifically if he knew CLAY BERTRAND as CLAY SHAW, he
became nervous and stated that he did not. When asked if he had
seen CLAY BERTRAND, he stated that he did not remember if he did
or did not see him.
He stated that the name CLAY BERTRAND is very familiar
to him. He stated that shortly before OSWALD's death while
DEAN ANDREWS was at the Hotel Dieu, he, DAVIS, had entered DEAN
ANDREWS' room and ANDREWS had told him that he, DAVIS, may be
going to Dallas. According to DAVIS, ANDREWS was on the telephone
talking to EVE SPRINGER, his secretary and instructed her to get
some files for him.
-2-
DAVIS stated that ANDREWS was under some kind of
sedation at the time he was in the hospital. He also advised
that he has been giving this CLAY BERTRAND a lot of thought and
that he was wondering if DEAN could have meant something like
"ROBERT TRAHAN or BERT TRAHAN". However, when asked specifically
if he had ever heard the name of CLAY BERTRAND, he advised that
the name is very familiar to him.
DAVIS stated that when ANDREWS got back from the
hospital, he found that someone had broken into his office and
had gone through his files, however, nothing of value was taken.
He stated that he believes that ANDREWS opened a file on the
OSWALD case, however, he does not know the file number of if the
file is available. He stated that the secretary only knew about
20% of what DEAN was doing.
He stated that he does not believe that he would
remember any of the homosexuals that went to ANDREWS' office.
(At this time he was very evasive when it came to identifying
persons that he worked cases on while he was associated with
ANDREWS). DAVIS stated, you have to remember I was doing work
for ANDREWS who represented these people. He was asked specifi-
cally if he had ever accompanied ANDREWS to any place in the
French Quarter. DAVIS stated that he had gone with ANDREWS to
have a bunch of contracts signed up by a number of musicians.
He stated that he believes that DEAN represented all of the
musicians on Bourbon Street and that he remembers going to a
place he believes is the Dixie Land Hall which he believes is
located across from a new hotel in the Quarter. He stated that
he believes DEAN ANDREWS had incorporated the Dixie Land Hall
and that he, ANDREWS, had some connection with this. He stated
that DEAN had very good connections in the Quarters and that he
also remembered going to a Go-Go girl's apartment in the Quarter
with ANDREWS.
He stated that you could always find ANDREWS at the
Dixie Land Hall because, "he was on a jazz kick.'
PRENTIES DAVIS stated that he saw OSWALD around the
time that OSWALD was having trouble at the Trade Mart. He stated
that he believes that this was the time that OSWALD was arrested
and charged in Municipal Court. He stated that DEAN ANDREWS did
not represent OSWALD in Municipal Court, but ANDREWS did give
OSWALD some type of legal advice regarding the charges pending
against him, OSWALD. DAVIS stated that he does not know if
BERTRAND came to the office or not concerning the OSWALD case in
Municipal Court. He again advised when specifically asked if
BERTRAND and CLAY SHAW were one and the same, that he did not
know. He was evasive in his answers to this question.
When questioned specifically about his visit to ANDREW
in the hospital, DAVIS again stated that he went to the hospital
right after DEAN ANDREWS had gotten the telephone call from
BERTRAND regarding representing OSWALD in Dallas. DAVIS stated
that it was at this time that ANDREWS told him that he, DAVIS,
may have to go to DALLAS. He began telling DAVIS that they
might be representing OSWALD.
Dean andreas
To Jim Garrison, from Harold Weisberg
3/16/68
Mom's Society Page and Oswald
Although Dean Andrews, who had told me he had heard that as a
young man Oswald has "sold tricks for $20" at the Old Society Page
(which he incorrectly said had burned down), also said Mom would toss a.
me out if I tried to speak to her, I found that she would talk-a
little. Aside from the obvious problem, there was another-her conviction
that "I don't know anything", which makes it difficult to make her see
that a tiny fragment of truth bhat to her has no significance might
be important.
I also spoke to Johnny Komundy (approx). He is a gay (An drews)
bartender she says is completely honest and has been with her for
seven years. He works the morning shift. He was, thus, at the old
place. Both remember Oswald from there.
Johnny says the opposite of Andrews. He recalls that Oswald was
a hustler but recalls none of the virls. "om lived in the same building,
126 Exhhnage, and on the same floor as the Oswalds, with her son's
aparenment between them. According to Johnny, although he saw little
of Oswald, he is confident itis not in the Andrews-cast role. Mom worked
the night shiftlinthose days, 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. and says she never
saw Oswald there then.
Mom had a delicate brain operation a year agon, for the removal of
a tumor. It seems to have denied her recollection of the preceeding
year or year and a half. She here expressed her trust in Johnny by
saying that when her son asked if he should check the register, she told
him no.
(Mon and Johnny
I explained to them both my apprehensions about the two most -
likely next scapegoats, as I have to you. Here we went into what
Andrews did to Gene Davis (she was outgaged and hotly denied it
could be so) andzi We were also talking about
the fact of the assassination and of the danger from the fake inquest
to The country. Whatever one of these things or whatever combination
caused it, I do not know, but this toihgh TOUGH old (62) gal wept.
I gather she is either ready to believe or convinced that Shaw
is Bertrand. She did not identify him as a customer and said he
travelled on a different level. She laughingly said her clientele
considers Shaw and his kind as "drapery salesladies". She identified
only two known Shaw hangouts in her suggestions for further checking:
the Galley House (whose knowledgeable ownwe, Mary Collins, is now
dead) and La Marina. She knew nothing about the incidentivan Cottman
toldme he had seen repeated often: Shaw glancing into LaFitte's and
then hurrying off.
I got to the Society Page in time to see Mom order a very
drunk very gay man out after he lost his alance from an early-morn-
ing druhk. It was then not yet 11 a.m. She can be rough. With him
were a pair of similars gays. One, however, particularly drew my
attention because he bears so close a facial resemblance to Dago
Garner full-face only. He is much heavier, a very broad man whose
back read hair-ends curl upwarde like a drake's. He was soft-spoken and
polite, but looked very tough. I was particularly interested in this
-3-
DAVIS stated that it was at this time also that
ANDREWS called SAM MONZELLAN and EVE SPRINGER and it was at this
time that he, ANDREWS, instructed EVE SPRINGER to get some files
from his office.
DAVIS appeared to be greatly nervous and very evasive
in his answers regarding any files that ANDREWS might have
regarding homosexuals and/or HARVEY OSWALD.
DAVIS also stated that one or two of the fags with
OSWALD were Cubans. He stated that there were five or six fags
with OSWALD were Cubans. He stated that he could not find a
record of OSWALD's visits to DEAN ANDREWS' office.
When questioned specifically about the name of the girl
that they visited, he was evasive and he stated that he did not
remember, however, he did remember going to her apartment which
was located around the corner from Bourbon Street on the downtown
corner. DAVIS stated that he was present at the time ANDREWS
called EVE SPRINGER asked her about a file, however, DAVIS was
evasive in answering questions regarding the file and stated
that he did not remember.
DAVIS also advised that he does appear in the Warren
Commission report. He states that he appears in the Warren
Commission report under the name of PRESTON DAVIS.
DAVIS identified EVE SPRINGER as "an old maid who
lives on Henry Clay Avenue." He stated that she could possibly
be of assistance. He stated that the break into ANDREWS' office
was discovered evidently by EVE SPRINGER and that it occurred on
a Saturday.
He advised also that they made no police report
regarding this break in.
LEADS;
Ascertain if ANDREWS received any telephone calls to the
Hotel Dieu switchboard.
Ascertain from DAVIS if possible the identity of homo-
sexuals (DAVIS should know the identities of these
persons as he is a trained investigator).
DAVIS was interviewed and became very scared by Sgt. Tom
Duffy and Capt. Cliency Navarre. As DAVIS was leaving the office,
he was advised by the writer that if he could possibly furnish
the names and identities of these various individuals, it would
be of great assistance and that the writer would put him to work
for a couple of days trying to run down the identities of these.
various homosexuals.
DAVIS stated that he would call the writer on
March 10, 1967.
Society Page-2
because sveral people toldme they recognized the Garner picture but
were uncertain why. One, Ophelia, referred to the eyes, and on this
man, too, there was a similar look in the eyes.
Johnny seemsto be in his 30s. He is a well-built, neat man
about 5'9" with a pronounced pugnose in profile.
I repeated the question about Oswald selling trick and he
gave the aameanswer, adding, "He didn't come around too much in
the day time". This is an inference that he knew Oswald was there
at night, which "om disputes. Johnny also said he saw Oswald often
in White's pool hall.
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"ocrText": "OFFICE OF THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY PARISH OF ORLEANS\nRACKETS DIVISION\nDATE\nACTION TAKEN\nA.D.A.\nDean Andrews\n0 Eximplated material from\nboth Andrema files -fn\nfurther evaluation\nANDREWS, DEAN\nCHECK LIST FOR CLOSING FILES\nClosed by\n1. Closed to All Defendants.\n( )\n2. Closed in General Docket Book (Clerk's Office) (\n)\nDate\n3. Index Card Closed.\n( )\nTo:Corcher\nRe: Deam andrews\nMEMORANDUM\nTO:\nLOUIE IVON, Chief Investigater\nFROM:\nGARY SANDERS, Investigator\nSUBJECT:\nDEAN ANDREWS\nRE:\nINTERVIEW WITH RICHARD ROLFE\nJanuary 11, 1968\n627 Dumaine St.\nNew Orleans, La.\n525-0184\nMR. RICHARD ROLFE and his wife JUNE ROLFE were interviewed on\nJanuary 11, 1968, at the office of his business establishment at\n627 Dumaine St. Miss Jody Duek attended this interview and took\nnotes from which this report is written.\nRICHARD ROLFE mentioned during the interview that a short time\nago he had been walking down the street with a client and had\nmet DEAN ANDREWS, who was walking with a \"Quanter Girl, sarape,\nsandals, the whole bit,\" and they had talked briefly. He had\nsaid to DEAN that he should drop by ROLFE'S office some day and\nthey could talk.\nDEAN ANDREWS had never previously been to ROLFE'S office. But\na few days later he came in, and said \"Come on baby, let's make\nsome money\". ROLFE replied that that would be fine with him,\nand asked for an explanation. DEAN said that he wondered if\nhe built a sound studio, to be used to tape TV shows etc., kind\nof a recording studio here in the city and rent the décilities\nout, would it go over well. ROLFE said it could definitely have\nmetit, especially for the politicians, who could record their\nspeeches for television without their opposition knowing what\nthey were going to say before they said it. ROLFE said it would\ndefinitely go over well.\nROLFE then said that although it would surely go over well, it\nwould cost a lot of money, at least a quarter of a million\ndollars.\nANDREWS immediately replied that it would be exactly $300,000.00\nDICK ROLFE then said that that was fine, but since neither of\nthem had that kind of money, they might as well forget it.\nDEAN ANDREWS then said \"I can get the equipment here, all I have\nto do is make a phone call, I'll have open credit, I can pay off\non any terms, I have to give up 10-15% of the action and I can\nget it.\"\nROLFE said he didn't want to be nosy but would like to know just\nwho was going to do this for DEAN.\nDEAN'S direct quote via ROLFE was: \"Look, BOBBY SARNOFF premised\nme those facilities, and he'd better pay off, baby.\nGary M. Sanders\nGMS:jld\nPARISH OF ORLEANS\nThe State of Louisiana\n~~~\nSS.\nCRIMINAL DISTRICT COURT FOR THE PARISH OF ORLEANS\nROBERT E. LEE,\nAssistant District Attorney for the Parish of Orleans, who in\nthe name and by the authority of the said State, prosecutes, in this behalf, in proper person comes into\nthe Criminal District Court for the Parish of Orleans, in the Parish of Orleans, and gives the said\nCourt here to understand and be informed that one\nDEAM A. ANDREWS, JR.\nlate of the Parish of Orleans, on the twenty-eighth day of\nJune\nin the year\nof our Lord, one thousand nine hundred and sixty-seven with force and arms in the Parish\nof Orleans aforesaid, and within the jurisdiction of the Criminal District Court for the Parish of\nOrleans, appeared as a witness before the Grand Jury of the Parish of Orleans\nand committed perjury by testifying as follows:\nQuestion by James I.. Aloock, Assistant District Attorney\n0. Doan, do you know the real clay *****\nA. the man * believe is Gene Davis, and 12 you ask him he'll call no\na crocossek of lies,\n******\n0. Now what leads you to believe that this is Clay Bortrand?\nA. Because I believe it. 2 am the only one who has to account for myself.\nO. What basis do you have?\nA. Helen Cert - back in the 50's, at the tag wedding reception I\nwas telling you all about, introduced me to Davis as Clay Bortrand.\n0. And this was the man who was introduced to you as Clay Bertrand?\nA. Right.\nQ. Have you talked to this man on the phone recently?\nA. I talk to him nivent every day. I have known his a Long time.\nQ. Your testimony now La that this is the man who sent clients to your\noffice? Talked to you on behalf of homosemiale?\nA. This is the man who sent elients to my office, constimes they were\nEags sometimes they waren't.\n0. Is this the wan who called you in the hospital and asked you to\nrepresent Lee Harvey Oswald?\nA. This Lo the man I believe called me. 24 believe - what you all believe\nLe your affair.\nQuestion by Grand Surer\nQ. In your mind, this Le Clay Bortrand? The man who called you\ndown through the years representing homosexuale?\nA. No, he didn't de it that way. That's the way 3 said it.\nPut Le into the Warren Comission Report - everybody picks is\nup from there and good with it. 2 never said it other than in\nthe Warren Report.\nQuestion by Richard V. Burnes, Assistant District Attorney\nQ. 246 asked you AS you ever heard from Clay Bertrend after the time\nyou were called about representing Lee Owald in the assessination\nand the answer was 3 ein't seen ner heard of him since.\nA. Not from Clay Bertrand cause I call him Gono Davis.\nYou are right, I told you that, and I sin't seen hide nor hair\na his ner heard from Clay Bortrand ** other than onetime I\nrecember when = was with Rogin up there, 2 call his Gene, #12\nwas introduced to the man one time.\nQ. Did this sen change appearance and change personality &th the\nname change?\nA. No.\nQ. So still Looked the case?\nA. No, he has changed, he is Eat like me, he's aged. Time has\ngone by, this has been 10 *****\nWhich testimeny and statements enumerated above the said\nDEAN A. ANDREWS, JR. then and there well knew were false and unture\nand which were related to matters material to the issue and question\nunder investigation, to-wit: a conspiracy to nurder JOHN F. KENNEDY,\ncontrary to the form of the Statute of the State of Louisiana in such case made and provided and\nagainst the peace and dignity of the same.\nAssistant District Attorney for the Parish of Orleans\nMEMORANDUM\nApril 13, 1967\nTO:\nJIM GARRISON, DISTRICT ATTORNEY\nFROM:\nSGT. TOM DUFFY, INVESTIGATOR\nRE:\nMISS E. H. SPRINGER - INTERVIEW OF\n(FORMER SECRETARY OF DEAN ANDREWS)\n515 HENRY CLAY AVENUE, NEW ORLEANS, LA.\nINTERVIEWED BY: SGT. DUFFY, SGT. SEDGEBEER and\nOFFICER NAVARRE\nQ. When were you first employed by- -\nA. Well, I never was really employed by Dean. This is the way\nit happened: I needed some legal work. There were a few of\nus who had a business - we went into a business - and the\nboys that were working for us wouldn't quit after they had\nfinally depleted all the funds and everything. They were\nstill running around and charging things to this company's\nname, so I needed legal advice and someone recommended\nMr. ANDREWS. So I went to Mr. ANDREWS and told him I didn't\nhave any more money because we were tired of supporting this,\nso he immediately that night put notices in the paper termin-\nating these boys andmen and dissolved the company and every-\nthing else to get us out of the trouble.\nQ. When was this now, approximately? What year?\nA. That had to be in the latter part of '61.\nQ. In '61?\nA. Uh huh.\nQ. How did you come to go to work for Mr. ANDREWS?\nA. Not long after that, I wasn't working at the time after\nthis business deal fell through and my father was very sick\nand so I stayed home with my mother to take care of him.\nSo DEAN with some other people opened a business out on\nVeterans Highway, an automobile business. He asked me if\nI would come up and help him set up some books for him or\nsomething, so I stayed with him out there.\nQ. And that was in '61?\nA. No, that was in '62. They started in '62. They had started\nin '62.\n-1-\nQ. What kind of business was it?\nA. What do you mean?\nQ. Did they have a service station involved?\nA. They had a gas pump. No, they didn't have a service station.\nQ. Just a gas pump?\nA. Yes.\nQ.\nT, They sold gas to the public or just. . ?\nA. No, just for cab drivers. What he was doing, he was working\nfor Parish Cab if you all remember that. He was the attorney\nfor that and they were going bankrupt or something so DEAN\ntook over the cab company, and at the same time he opened\nthis place right on Veterans right back of the Airline. It\nused to be a nightclub or something, and I think it lasted\nless than a year. He couldn't get parts and like that, and\neach company like the Dodge and the Buick, wouldn't sell you\nthe parts you wanted to make repairs, so he finally decided\nto file bankruptcy. The name of it was Automotive Unlimited.\nQ. Automotive Unlimited?\nA. Uh huh. So I stayed with him and I went down with him to\nhelp him file for bankruptcy. The day we were filing bank-\nruptcy the day before or the day after - my father died,\nand I was in no position then, and I didn't feeling like\ngoing to get a job or anything, and he says why don't you\ncome down to the office with me. You can take accounts, be-\ncause I did work several little accounts, you know. And he\nsaid, you can start getting accounts down there and you can\nanswer the phone and things like that for me.\nQ. Where was this office at?\nA. That was in the Maison Blanche Building.\nQ. Maison Blanche Building.\nA. So I stayed there until all of my money ran out and I had to\nget out and get a job where I was paid.\nQ. Now, at this time he was alone in the business?\nA. What do you mean?\nQ. The only attorney?\nA. Oh no, no other.\nQ. No other attorney? How long did you stay there?\n-2-\nA. I stayed there until December of '64. I think we were from\nFebruary of '63 until - wait now, I'm not good on years. My\nfather died - Yeah, because Automotive Unlimited opened in\nFebruary of '62 or something like in May or February, I\ndon't remember, and then it was one year later. My father\ndied on February 1st, so that would have been '63.\nQ. Yes Ma'm.\nA.\n'63.\nQ. That's pretty good covereage on that now. Do you remember\nthe President's death? November 22nd?\nA. Yes. We had television on, so I immediately called DEAN who\nwas in the Hotel Dieu at the time. He was in there about 2\nweeks before I believe.\nQ. You had television in the office?\nA. I was in the office next door. I ate lunch in an office in\nthe building.\nQ. And you called DEAN?\nA. I called DEAN and I went all around on the floor telling them.\nQ. How long was Mr. ANDREWS sick this time? Approximately.\nA. It was several weeks. I think he was in the hospital 3 or 4\nweeks. Now, I'm not sure, but I'll tell you, I kept a log -\na telephone log - in the office and they're saved. You know\nwhat I mean? So it might tell\nQ. Do you still - do you have it here, or where?\nA. Oh no, in DEAN's office.\nQ. You kept it there? If he saved it, it would be good?\nA. Well, I saved them when I was there. They were put up in\nthe library, and I don't think he would discard them or\nanything like that.\nQ. It's a log of all telephone calls?\nA\nA log. And I even marked in there of the President's death.\nThat was one of the biggest shocks\nQ. The next day was a Saturday, after the President's death, and\nDEAN was supposed to have called you and he asked you for a\nfile.\nA. He told me that he had a telephone call, and I think with it,\nI think of him going to Texas to represent OSWALD.\nQ. He didn't ask you for certain files? To see if he had\ncertain files in his office?\n-3-\nA\nWhat kind of files?\nQ. Files on clients.\nA. Inaudible.\n2. Now, let me aks you something Miss SPRINGER, did you keep\nhis files and all, or make files on people who came to his\noffice?\nA. I tried. On some I did, yes.\nQ. Did he have any files on OSWALD?\nA. No. That we went through. Many a time I went through that\nwith the FBI. You see, all these characters - - DEAN being a\ncriminal lawyer, he had some characters coming to the office,\nbyt they never came until after 5:00 o'clock. Now OSWALD -\nhe told me much longer after the President's death he tried\nto make me remember a couple with a baby. They came in there.\nThe girl had long stringy hair hanging down here back, and\nhe said they were there when I was leaving. He said that\nwas OSWALD, and that he had come for his naturalization -\ndischarge - to have his discharge dishonorable discharge -\nif there was any way to fix it. Now that was what DEAN told\nme.\nQ. Well, he never did come there when you were there?\nA. No.\nQ. Did Mr. ANDREWS have an investigator at this time?\nA. Yes, an ex-Sergeant - SERGEANT DAVIS. Yes, I think that's\nwhat you would call him. An investigator. He worked with\nDEAN and.\nQ. They were pretty close?\nA. Yes, I would imagine you could call them \"pretty close\".\nQ. I mean, really a confidential.\n...\nA. Yes.. Well Sarge was more or less a - I don't know how you'd\nsay it. A good old OX. He would do anything for DEAN, run\nand get his coffee. I mean, he was discharged from the\nservice, and he just wanted something to do. He couldn't\ndo hard work. He has a very bad heart.\nQ. If DEAN would have an important case and it needed investi-\ngating, DAVIS would do it?\nA. Yes, DAVIS would do it.\nQ. No other investigator would come in and do any work?\nA.\nI never did know.\n-4-\nQ. Now, getting back to the phone call that you received from\nDEAN in the hospital Saturday, when was the next time that\nyou went to the office?\nA. Well, I went Monday.\nQ. You went Monday?\nA. I never did stay away because I was waiting for calls from\nhim too.\nQ. You went Monday. When did DEAN get out of the hospital and\nreturn to the office?\nA. It was a while. I'm sure it was over a week.\nQ. O Over a week?\nA.\nThat you could find in those books.\nQ. Do you remember the office being broken into? If it had\nbeen broken into while you were there, you would have\nA. I would have had to know it.\nQ. You opened and closed while he was in the hospital?\nA. While he was in the hospital, and SARGE was down there most\nall of the time.\nQ. Like somebody just broke into the office and threw records\nall over the place, like somebody just ransacking the place.\nA. When was this supposed to have taken place?\nQ. Inaudible.\nA.\nI don't know about it. Now, had it happened after DEAN was\nout of the hospital, and it happened at night or something,\nI don't know about it. But I dod know all of the records\nwere messed up with \"Betsy\". I wasn't there at the time.\nQ. Yeah, that was '65.\nA.\nBut, I don't remember that.\nQ. I guess you were shown some pictures already.\nA. What's that?\nQ. Of different people that may have come there\nA. No, this is the first. I've been waiting for it and on pins\nand needles because my mother is old, and she's had two\nstrokes already. Her eyesight and everything is bad, and I\nworry about here. Well, this you know I know by now. I think\nI know it. I wouldn't want to get in court and swear that\nthe picture that I've seen.\n-5-\na\nIs OSWALD?\nA. Yeah. By the way, DEAN did have a picture of this fellow.\nBut now, this is a funny thing, because this is what he told\nthe FBI, I mean, he showed this picture to the FBI. I think\nhe gave it to them. He had a\nQ. Do you know where he got it from?\nA. Yes, that's what I'm trying to tell you. A Mexican or\nSpanis or a central American who was having some kind of\nvisa work done - whether they wanted it extended or not I do\nnot know, because DEAN did most of his work in hiw head -\nand DEAN would sit around with a file and type out what he\nwanted and that was it. I mean, that's the type he was. A\ngood-hearted slob. And this girl had to have some kind of\nproof that she was in a town at a certain time, you know how\nthey put the dates under the pictures - so somebody took the\npicture of her in front of the International Trade Mart,\nand OSWALD was handing out papers at the time. So that was\nthe picture he gave - I think he gave it to the FBI. I know\nhe had it to give to them. He told us\nQ.\nHe was representing the girl?\nA.\nYes, this girl.\n2.\nYou don't remember who she was?\nA. Gosh no, they had some - he was an expert on this. He was\na naturalization\nQ. Well, did he keep records on these people that he represented\nin some type of way.\nA. Most of them.\nQ. But he never did keep any records for this man?\nA. No, ne never did any work for this man. This man only came\nto see him. He never did do anything else, and it couldn't\nhave been too long before DEAN went into the hospital that\nthis man came to see him. I mean what he told me, that is\nthe man that I'm thinking of with the lady with the long\nstringy hair.\nQ. But you did notice that couple? If you had received a\ntelephone call.\nA. Well, I know they had a couple - I can remember a woman with\nlong hair which wasn't as popular as it is today, but I\ncouldn't ever say whether or not.\nQ. Did these telephone calls - say if I was to call DEAN\nANDREWS, you could tell it by the telephone records?\nA.\nYes.\n-6-\nQ. If I was to call DEAN ANDREWS and say, \"This is Duffy. I\nwould like to speak to DEAN ANDREWS.\", you would make a\nrecord of that?\nA. Yes I might. If you said you were Mr. Duffy and I said he\nwasn't there, I would just write \"Mr. Duffy\". If you gave\nme your number, the number would have been along side of it.\nQ. Do you ever remember a CLAY BERTRAND?\nA. Just when the name came up in this deal. I mean, I never\nheard the name before. Now, I've heard the name CLAY SHAW\nbut not from Dean ANDREWS' office. I worked with investi-\ngators for 9 years. Not out in the field, but in town.\nPendleton Detective Agency and I was with Penguin. That was\nright around Carnival and we were in the Whitney Building\nand the International Trade Mart so I knew that name. Let\nme see. You have some more pictures? This must be what they\nare trying to say is the beatnick in the - I'm putting\nmyself in Russo's place today. May I ask who this is? I\ndon't know the picture. I mean, I don't know the face.\nQ. That's the Latin-type we're trying to get identified. We\nwanted to know if he's ever been to Mr. ANDREWS' office.\nA. This one here sort of looks like Mr. ANDREWS. No, I never\nsaw that one before. I saw very few Latin-Americans or\nCentral American men ever come in his office. Mostly they\nwere women.\nQ. Have you ever seen many degenerates come into his office?\nA. No.\nQ. Well, we understand they used to parade there quite often.\nA. But always you see, DEAN stayed in his office at night\nbecause he knew the minute that kind came in the day, I\nwould be going out the side door. I mean, I'm not a prude\nor anything like that, but I don't want to live my life that\nway. Like I say, I can remember him years ago when he was a\nyoung good-looking man - because all of the girls used to\ntalk about that good-looking man. But I never knew him,\nnever had talked to him or anything like that.\nQ. And you left DEAN's office in 1964? Am I correct?\nA. That's right.\nQ. His telephone records were all intact at the time you left?\nA. And I'm sure they are still there.\nQ. Did the FBI see any files? Or did Mr. ANDREWS give the FBI\nany files?\nA. Not that I know of\n-7-\nQ. If these files had been removed, would you have noticed it?\nA. Not particularly. If they had been taken out of the files\nI wouldn't have because he had files from years and years and\nyears back. If he had any that he was working on and I\ncould put them in the file and put them away, I would do\nthat. But, I mean, I never noticed that any were gone.\n2. Let me ask you a hypothetical question. Within a few weeks\nafter the death of the President, if Mr. ANDREWS' office had\nbeen broken into, ransacked and records thrown all over,\nwouldn't Mr. ANDREWS have discussed this with you? Especially\nif he was trying to determine if anything was missing?\nA. He would have. I'll try and remember.\nQ. In ordinary conversation, even if he had straightened it out\nbefore you got there, to determine if anything was missing\nhe would have to mention it.\nA. He would have and I'm trying to remember. I can't remember\nanything. He may have said something to me about \"Have you\nseen this? It looks like somebody rooting.\" and I just\ndidn't give it any significance.\nQ. No, I think you would remember if anybody broke ---\nA. Now you've put me on the spot.\nQ. No, I'm not trying to put you on the spot.\nA. No, I mean trying to think.\nQ. I mean, if somebody broke into my office and threw records\nall over.\nA. Yes, but you see, DEAN's office was over there -\nQ. And somebody straightened it out before I got there, they\nwould certainly mention it to me when I got there. Everybody\nin the building would know my office was broken into.\nA. Well DEAN would come out with things like that every now and\nthen about, oh, he believed that the phone was bugged you\nknow and things like that, 'til I didn't pay any attention\nto things like that. That's why I'm trying to place if\nanything really did. But I swaar, I can't.\nQ. Now DAVE FERRIE, the name DAVE FERRIE, does that ring a bell?\nA. No. Never heard of him.\nQ. Never heard of him?\nA. Not until a couple of weeks ago.\nQ. Let me ask you one more thing Miss Springer. You went there\nA.\nIt had to be February '63.\n-8-\nQ. You worked in his office?\nA.\nUh huh.\nQ.\nWhen was Mr. DAVIS employe there?\nA.\nI don't know whether you would ever say DAVIS was employed.\nDAVIS had to have something to do; somewhere to be; so that\nwas his hangout. He would do little things for DEAN and\nDEAN would pay him. But he was not -\nQ. He paid him for what he did, not a salary?\nA. No. That was the only -\nQ. My impression is that he was an investigator strictly for\nDEAN.\nA.\nNo, but he had something to do besides\nQ. Was he hanging around there at the time you went to work\nthere?\nA. Well, when we were at Automotive Unlimited over there was\nwhen SARGE came back from the hospital. He had had a bad\nheart attack and they discharged him. And so when DEAN went\ndown there and moved into his office - well he never did\ngive it up - (bad length of tape)\nQ. And when you left in '64 was SARGE still with ANDREWS?\nA.\nYes, but he was looking for something to do for a steady\nincome, and he went into, I believe you would call it an\ninvestigator, with some other attorney. But he's working\non a payroll or something with this other attorney.\nQ. Have you been contacted by anybody since the investigation\nbroke in the newspapers? We were the first ones?\nA. You're the first ones and since, ridiculously my name is in\nthe Warren Commission, it's also in this book called White-\nwash, what the FBI asked me and what I said to them, which\nis the same. It looks so ridiculous written in a book\nbecause I don't know anything; I never did know anything and\nso that was why I was quite surprised and waiting half way\non pins and needles you know, to see what was coming up next.\nBut I don't believe DEAN knew who the voice was and that's\nwhat we referred to, the man that called him that Saturday\nmorning.\nQ. Did he say anything?\nA.\nNo, because I asked him, I said well DEAN you must know who\nit is. He said, \"Lord, I don't know. It's only a voice to\nme. What I think, it must be somebody from Dallas.\" And I\nasked him; we talked about that because I questioned him\nquite thoroughly on that. He always stated as far as he was\nconcerned it was only a voice. Now, whether he was just\nsaying it or not, I don't really know.\n-9-\nQ. You did read the Warren Commission Report and that section\nof what DEAN ANDREWS told them?\nA. Yes, what he says about the three b's, what he called the\nthree b's or something like that; that there was a CLAY\nBERTRAND. That was much later. But he said he thought it\ncould be a CLEM or a CLAY now. A CLAY BERTRAND.\nQ. He mentioned that he had\non that.\nA. Yes. I wasn't there when he told the FBI that. I guess that\nwas one time when they questioned him alone, but when they\ncame into the office and we were talking all together, still\nas far as I was concerned it was still a voice until someone\ncame up to me one day and asked me did I ever work for -\nwhere I'm working now, with DEAN ANDREWS. I said I did. And\nthey said you're in the Warren Commission and they brought\nme the little excerpts that said that he mentioned CLEM\nBERTRAND and the FBI said it was only a figment of his\nimagination.\nQ. Did you ever search any of these diaries or records that\nyou kept there for any of these particular names?\nA. I went all through the logs, the telephone logs, yes, with\nan FBI man because I told him that if OSWALD had ever called\nI would have taken down the name. We went all through that\nand we never did see anything about OSWALD.\nQ. Was he interested in the BERTRAND name too?\nA. I don't know. He may have. Now, you know how you are\nQ. Did he ever mention the name BERTRAND to you?\nA. No. That's what I say, he may have had it in his mind while\nwe were going through because we went through together. But\nhe never mentioned that. The first I knew about it was when\none evening when I came home my sister called and she said\n\"Did you ever hear of CLAY BERTRAND?\" and I said \"No.\" She\nsaid \"Well they're saying now that CLAY BERTRAND was\nsubpoenaed alias CLAY SHAW was subpoenaed alias CLAY\nBERTRAND, and that DEAN had told that to the FBI.\" That was\nthe only time I ever heard that, you know -\nQ. Do you remember any name that was similar to CLAY BERTRAND?\nA. No. I don't even remember the name of CLAY being used,\nbecause I think I would have connected something anyhow.\nBut no, it was still a voice. Of course, I didn't talk to\nhim: remember this from 1964 until then.\nQ. He handled quite a few, like you said before, quite a few\nof these cases of the immigration department involving visas\nand cases with the Immigration and Naturalization Department.\nA. Yes.\n-10-\nQ. Who was his contact handling that? Was somebody referring\nthem to him?\nA. I don't know. Now you've really got me. I thought you know\nhow you go to a foreign country they stick together. I\nthought that was why.\nQ.\nYou don't remember any particular person he received more\nphone calls from and it seemed the visa business would come\nshortly thereafter.\nA.\nNo, because after I was down there working with him it had\ndropped off a whole lot. Before that, they say he was an\nexpert on it - - after I was down there he only had women like\nwanting to extend their visas, or get their brothers to come\nover or -\nQ. He spoke Spanish?\nA. Me?\nQ. No, Mr. ANDREWS.\nA.\nI don't believe he spoke any Spanish.\nQ. I seems strange you know handling -\nA. He may, but I don't know.\nQ. Did you clear up the point with the woman who is supposed to\nbe in the photo handing out when OSWALD was handing out--\nIt seems a coincidence there.\nWas this person supposed to be in the photo with Oswald,\nthis woman.\nA.\nIt was supposed to be a picture of the woman and it was a\npicture of the woman passing the - or standing by the Trade\nMart.\nQ. When OSWALD was there.\nA. Yes. DEAN gave that picture to the FBI. He had it out\nfor them.\nQ. And she gave him the picture?\nA. Yes, with the day on it. You had to have it showing that\nyou were in New Orleans on a date or something. I think that\nwas it, because I never -\nQ. Was this like a newspaper clipping.\nA. No. It was a regular photograph.\nQ. It seems awful strange.\nI would surely like to know where those pictures come from.\nI wonder where she got it.\nA picture that would subsequently come\nA. You all don't have that picture.\nQ\nYes. it's somewhere back in the office. I'll look at it\nagain later.\n-11\nA. Because, Well where did you get it? You œuldn't have\ngotten it from DEAN.\n2\nNo. That picture has been all over.now. In New Orleans\nand everywhere showing OSWALD handing out pamphlets.\nA. And that was a lovely little Spanish girl. I've forgotten\nwhat her name is.\nQ. She was probably involved in an extension of a visa?\nA. No, I believe that was to get her sister over. To get her\nsister here. But where it was from, I don't know. I could\nsay that when he had clients in there I never really paid\nthat much attention. I did some typing for him but mostly\non suits to file. But I can't think of her name, but that\nwould be in the log.\nQ. Would you say that Mr. DAVIS was an intelligent person?\nA. Well, I'll tell you that Mr. DAVIS was an intelligent person.\nWhat he has is a disease like the Lou Gehrig disease they\ncall it. At times he is and at times he's very sick. But\nI think he was at one time however, I didn't know him then.\nBut the little while I knew him, you can just see his arms\nand everything all shrinking up.\nQ. Is he a nervous person.\nA. Yes.\nQ.\nDoes he show it by shaking?\nA. Yes. Especially when he gets tired or has to get hometo\ntake his pills. I think he has a lot of pills to take to\nrelieve the pain.\nQ. It doesn't worry him.\nA. Well his medical discharge takes care of that. He's still\na sergeant and he gets ammedical pension. But that's why\nhe was discharged.\nMr. Hum NT. Did be my he didn't drive?\nMr. LEWIS. He didn't make comment. Ile said he didn't have any Heense,\nMr. HUMBER. You think It was about a Init hour after the first episode Just\nhe returned with the other Identification?\nMr. Levis. Yes, sir.\nMr. HUBERT. Was the Latin American looking person with him on both\noccasions?\nMr. LEWIS. Both occasions; yes.\nMr. HURERT. All right. sir, have you anything to add?\nMr. LEWIS. No, sir.\nMr. HUMARY. I think you made reference to the fact that the check from the\nWestern Union, which was the subject of this whole episode, had been pur-\nchased by someone and payable to the payee Involved at the Cotton Exchange\nbranch?\nMr. LEWIS. Cotton Exchange branch.\nMr. HUMBER. Is that In Dallas?\nMr. LEWIS. Yes, sir; IL Is In the Cotton Exchange Building. I think It Is on\nNorth Ervay.*\nMr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I ask you whether you concur with me that since\nI have met you today, which was the first time we ever met. there has been no\nconversation between us other than that which has been covered In the depo-\nsition In one way or another, Is that correct?\nMr. LEWIS. That's correct.\nMr. HUNERT. Thank you very much, sir.\nMr. LEWIS. Thank you, sir.\nTESTIMONY OF DEAN ADAMS ANDREWS, JR.\nThe testimony of Dean Adams Andrews, Jr., was taken on July 21, 1961. at\nthe Old Civil Courts Building. Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by\nMr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. C.\nDean Andrews, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified ns\nfollows:\nMr. LIEBELER. Mr. Andrews, ns you know by now, I am an attorney on the\nstaff of the President's Commission. I have been authorized to take your depost-\ntion pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No.\n11130, dated November 29. 1003, and Joint resolution of Congress, No. 137,\nI understand that the Secret Service served a subpena on you Inst week to\nbe here today, so you have had the requisite notice for the proceeding.\nAs you are a member of the bar-as you know, of course, you are entitled\nto counsel, but you can probably forego that If you want to. You also know that\nyou have all the usual privileges not to answer questions on the grounds of\nIncrimination and whatever other privileges you ruight have and want to\nexercise.\nMr. LARBILER. Would you state your full name for the record, please.\nMr. ANDREWS. Dean, and the middle Initial Is A, A for Adams, Andrews, Jr.\nMr. LIEBELER. I am correct, am I not, that you are n member of the Bar of\nLouisiana?\nMr. ANDREWS. ] nin n member of the bar of the State of Louisinna.\nMr. And you regularly practice law In the city of New Orleans?\nMr. ANDREWS. That's my office; yes.\nMr. LICHELER. Where do you live?\nMr. ANDREWS. 207 Metairle Lawn Drive. That's In Metairle, Ln.\nMr. Metairle Lawn Drive In Metatrie?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes,\nMr. LICENSER. Where do you maintain your offices?\nMr. ANDREWS. 627 Malson Blanche Building, New Orleans.\n*COS North St. Paul, one block from Hrvay and YMCA.\n325\n524 .5517\nMr. LIEBELER I am advised by the FBI that you told them that Lee Harvey\nOswald came Into your office some time during the summer of 1963. Would\nyou tell us In your own words just what happened as far as that is concerned?\nMr. ANDREWS. I don't recall the dates, but briefly, it is this: Oswald came in\nthe office accompanied by some my kids, They were Mexicanos. He wanted to\nfind out what could be done In connection with a discharge, a yellow paper dis-\ncharge, so I explained to him he would have to advance the funds to transeribe\nwhatever records they had up In the Adjutant General's office. When lic brought\nthe money, I would do the work, and we saw him three or four times subsequent\nto that, not In the company of the gay kids. ITc had this Mexicano with him.\nI assume be is a Mex because the Latins do not wear a butch haircut.\nMr. LUBELER. The first time be came in he was with these Mexicans, and there\nwere also some gay kids. By that, of course, you mean people that appeared to\nyou to be homosexuals?\nMr. ANDERWS. Well, they swish. What they are, I don't know. We call them\ngay kids.\nMr. LIEBELER. Had you ever seen any of those kids before?\nMr. ANDREWS. None of them.\nMr. LIEBULEG. Have you seen any of them since?\nMr. ANDREWS. Since the first time they came In?\nMr. LIERETER. Since the first time they came in?\nMr. ANDREWS Yes,\nMr. LIEBELLE, You have? C\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIERELLE. Did they ever come back with Oswald?\nMr. ANDREWS. No; Mexicanos came back.\nMr. LIERELER. Where did you see these gay kids after the first time?\nMr. ANDREWS. First district precinct. Police picked them up for wearing\nclothes of the opposite sex.\nMr. LIEBELEE. How many of them were there?\nMr. ANDREWS. About 50.\nMr. LIEBELLE. They weren't all with Oswald, were they?\nMr. ANDREWS. No; Oswald-you see, they made what they call a scoop and\nput them all in the pokey. I went down for the ones I represented. They were\nin the holding pavition. I paroled them and got them out.\nMr. LICKELER. You do represent from time to time some of these gay kids, Is\nthat correct?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIEBELER You say that some of the gay kids that you saw at the time the\npolice arrested this large group of them for wearing clothes of the opposite SCX\nwere the ones that had been with Oswald?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIEBELER. Were you able to Identify them by name?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: you see, they just-we don't even open up files on them.\ngeneral\nWe don't open a file. We mark what we call n working file. We make a few\nnotes and put it in the general week's work. If you come back and the office Is\nretained, we make a permanent file and-but these kids come and go like-you\nknow.\nMr. LIERELER. When were these people picked up by the police as you have\ntold us?\nMr. ANDREWS. Let me think. Some time In May. I went and checked the\nrecords. I couldn't find nothing on it. believe it's May of 1963.\n2\nMr. LIEBELER. They were picked up in May of 10037\nMr. ANDREWS. On Friday,\nMr. LIKERLER. That was after Oswald had been In your office?\nMr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's initial contact. I think be had come back\nwith this Mexicano one more time.\nMr. LIEBELLE. Before These people were arrested?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes; then the second Time he came back, we talked about the\nyellow paper discharge. about his status as a citizen, and about his wife's status.\nMr. LIEBELER. Now before we get Into that, let me try and pin down how long\nIt was after the first time Oswald came in that these kids all got arrested. All\n50 of them for wearing These clothes?\nMr. ANDREWS. 1 don't know It was 50. That 1 can't remember.\nMr. LIENELER. Was it a month? Two months? A week?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: It wasn't that. Ten days nt the most.\n2\nMr. LITHELEE. I suppose the New Orleans Police Department files would re-\nfleet the dates these people were picked up?\nMr. ANDREWS. I checked the first district's blotter and the people are there,\nbut I just can't get their names. You see, they wear names just like you and I\nwear,elothes. Today their name is Candy: tomorrow it is Butsie: next day it is\nMary. You never know what they are. Names are a very improbable method\nof identification. More sight. Like you see a dog. He is black and white.\nThat's your dog. You know them by sight mostly.\nMr. LICENSER Do you remember what date It was that that large arrest was\nmade?\nMr. ANDLEWS. No; every Friday is arrest day in New Orleans. They clean\nthem all up. The shotgun squad keeps the riots, the mugging, and all the hum-\nbug out. They have been doing that very effectively, You can plck just any\nFriday.\nMr. LICENSER. This was on a Friday?\nMr. ANDREWS. IL had to be a Friday or Saturday. C.\nMr. LIEBELER. In May of 1003?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIERCLER After you saw these kids at this hig pickup on Friday or Sat-\nurday. did you ever see any of them again after that?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: still looking for them. They owe me a fee,\nMr. LIENELER They are always the hardest ones to find.\nMr. ANDREWS. They usually pay. They are screwed In.\nMr. LIERCLER. What did Oswald say to you about his own eitizenship status?\nYou say that he mentioned that the second time he came back. What did he\ntalk to you about in that regard?\nMr. ANDREWS. They came in usually after hours, about 5, 5:15, and as I re-\ncall, he had alleged that he had abandoned his citizenship. He didn't say how;\nhe didn't say where. I assumed that he was one of the people who wanted to\njoin The Free World and-1 represented one or two of them. They had belonged\nto The World Citizenship-1 explained to him there are certain steps he had to\ndo, such as taking an oath of loyalty to a foreign power, voting In a foreign\ncountry election, or soale method that Is recognized defectively ns loss of citi-\nzeuship. Then I told him, \"Your presence in the United States is proof you are\na citizen. Otherwise, you would be an alien with an alien registration with a\ngreen card, form 000.\"\nMr. LICRELER. Had he told you he had been out of the country?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LICELLEE. Did he tell you where he had gone?\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nMr. LIERELER. Since he had been out of the country, the fact that he was back\nand didn't have an alien card was proof he was a citizen?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIEBELER. Do you remember any other part of the conversation?\nMr. ANDREWS. When he asked the questions-I don't know which visit it\nwas-about eltizenship of his wife, I asked the birthplace or origin cited for\ncitizenship purposes- that's what counts-and he said Russia, so I just assumed\nhe had met someone somewhere, some place, either in Russia or in Europe\nmarried them, and brought them over here ns a G1, a GI bride, and wanted to go\nthrough the routine of naturalization, which is 3 years after lawful admission\ninto the United States if you are married, and five years If you are not, maintain\nthe status here in the States emmulatively for 5 years.\nMr. LIEBELER. Did he Indicate that he wanted to Institute citizenship pro-\neeedings for his wife?\nMr. ANDEEWS. Yes; I told him to go to Immigration and get the forms. Cost\nhim $10. All he had to do was execute them. IIc didn't need a lawyer. That\nthe and that\nMr. LICENCER How many times did he come Into your office?\nMr. ANDREWS. Minimum of three, maximum of five, counting Initial visit.\nMr. And did you talk about different subjects nt different times?\nAN I understand It. the first time he came there, he was primarily concerned\nabout his discharge. Is that correct?\nMr. ANDREWS. Well, I may have the subject matter of the visits reversed be\nramse with the company he kept and the conversation-he could talk fairly\nwell--1 figured that this was another one of what we call in my office free\nalley elients, $0 we didn't maintain the normaley with the file that-might have\nseratched a few notes on a piece of pad, and 2 days Inter threw the whole thing\naway. Didn't pay too much attention to him. Only time I really paid atten-\ntion to this hoy, he was in the front of the Maison Blanche Building giving out\nthese kooky Castro Things,\nMr. LICRELER. When was this, approximately?\nMr. ANDREWS. T don't remember. I was coming from the NBC building. and\nI walked past him. You know how you see somebody, recognize him. So I\nturned around, came back, and asked him what he was doing giving that junk\nout. He said It was a job. 1 reminded him of the $25 he owed the office. Ilo\nsaid he would come over there, but he never did.\nMr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you that he was getting paid to hand out this\nIlterature?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIEBELER. DId he tell you how much?\nMr. ANDEEWS. No.\nMr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling the FBI that he told you that he was\nbeing paid $25 a day for handing out these leaflets?\nMr. ANDREWS. I could have told them that. I know I reminded him of the\n$23. I may have It confused. the $25. What I do recall, he said It was a job.\nI guess I nsked him how much he was making. They were little square chits a\nlittle bit smaller than the pleture you have of him over there [indicating].\nMr. LIEBELER. He was handing out these leaflets?\nMr. ANDREWS. They were black-and-white pamphlets extolling the virtues of\nCastro, which around here doesn't do too good. They have a lot of guys,\nMexicanos and Cubanos, that will tear your head off If they see you fooling with\nthese things.\nMr. LIEBELER. What were they like?\nMr. ANDREWS. They were pamphlets, single-sheet pamphlets.\nMr. LIEBELER. Just one sheet? It wasn't a booklet?\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nMr. LICENSER. What color were the pamphlets? You say It was white paper?\nMr. ANDREWS. White paper offset with black. C\nMr. LIEBELER. Could it have been yellow paper?\nMr. ANDREWS. I am totally colorblind. I wouldn't know. But I think It is\nblack and white.\nMr. LIERELER. You are colorblind?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes. Most of them wanted it around there. You give It to\nthem, the people look at It and they drop it, right now.\nMr. LIERELER. Do you remember what day of the week this was that you saw\nhim handing this stuff out?\nMr. ANDREWS. It was In the middle of the week, around Tuesday or\nWednesday.\nMr. LIEBELER. Where Is the Malson Blanche Building? What street Is It on?\nMr. ANDREWS. 021 Canal Street. It Is on this side. It Is bounded by Dauphine\nand Burgundy.\nMr. How far Is it from the International Trade Mart?\nMr. ANDREWS. It depends on what route you take. If you come up Camp\nStreet, It would be two blocks to Canal and four blocks toward the cometery:\nso It would be about six blocks. It would be six blocks no matter which way\nyou went, but you would walk four blocks on Common Street or Gravier, and\nthen two blocks over the other way.\nMr. LIEBELER [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that has\nfrom the last time Oswald came Into your office to the last time you saw him In\nthe street handing out literature?\nMr. ANDREWS. I would say about G weeks, just guessing.\nMr. And you have never seen the Mexican at any other time since\nthen?\nMr. ANDREWS. No. He just couldn't have disappeared because the Mexican\ncommunity here Is pretty small. You can squeeze it pretty good, the Latin\ncommunity. He Is not known around here.\nMr. LIEBELER. Have you made an attempt to find him since the assassination?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIEBELER. And you haven't had any success?\nMr. ANDREWS. No. Not too many places they can go not being noticed.\nMr. LICHELER. Was there anybody else with Oswald that day you saw him\nhanding out literature?\nMr. ANDREWS. Oh, people standing there with him. Whether they were with\nhim or not, I wouldn't know.\nMr. LICHELER. Did It appear that there was anybody else helping him band\nout literature?\nMr. ANDREWS. There was one person. but they had no Ilterature. They weren't\ngiving anythir : out. Let me see that picture of that little bitty guy, that weasel\nbefore.\nMr. LIVERLER Thanding pleture to witness]. This is Bringuier Exhibit No. 1.\nMr. ANDREWS. No: he resembled this boy, but it.ls not him. It is a pate face\nInstead of a Latin.\nMr. LIEBELER. When you talked to Oswald on the street that day, did he give\nyou any Idea who was paying him to hand this stuff out?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: he Just sald, \"It's a job.\"\nMr. LIERELER. My understanding is, of course, that you are here under subpena\nand subpena duees tecum, asking you to bring with you any records that you\nmight have in your office Indicating or reflecting Oswald's visit, and my under-\nstanding is that you indicated that you were unable to find any such records.\nMr. ANDREWS. Right. My office was rifled shortly after I not out of the hos.\npital, and I talked with the FII people. We couldn't find anything prior to it.\nWhoever was kind enough to mess my office up, going through It, we haven't\nfound anything since.\nMr. LIERELLER. You have caused n thorough search to be made of your office\nfor these records?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LICBERR. You haven't been able to come up with anything?\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nMr. LICENSER. Did there come a time after the assassination when you had\nsome further Involvement with Oswald, or at least BP apparent involvement\nhuspital\nwith Oswald: as I understand 11? C\nMr. ANDREWS. No: nothing nt all with Oswald. J was in Hotel Dieu, and the\nphone rang and a voice I recognized as Clay Bertrand nsked me If I would go to\nDallas and Houston I think-Dallas, I MUSS wherever It was that this boy was\nbeing held and defend him. I told him I was sick In the hospital. If 1\ncouldn't go. would find somebody that could go.\nMr. LIERELER. You told him you were sick in the hospital and what?\nMr. ANDREWS. That's where I was when the call came through. It came\nthrough the hospital switchboard. I said that I wasn't In shape enough to go\nto Dallas and defend him and 1 would see what I could do.\nMr. LIEBELER. Now what can you tell us about this Clay Bertrand? You\nmet him prior to that time?\nMr. ANDREWS. I bad seen Clay Bertrand once some time ago, probably n\ncouple of years. He's the one who calls in behalf of BUY kids normally. either\nto obtain bond or parole. for them. I would assume that he was the one that\noriginally sent Oswald and the my kids, these Mexicanos, to the office because\nI bad never seen those people before nt all. They were Just walk-Ins.\nMr. LICHELER You say that you think you saw Clay Bertrand some time about\n2 years prior to the time you received this telephone call that you have just\ntold us about?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: he is mostly a voice on the phone.\nMr. LIEBELER, What day did you receive the telephone call from Clay Bertrand\nasking you to defend Oswald?\nMr. ANDREWS. I don't remember. It was a Friday or a Saturday.\nMr. LIEBELER. Immediately following the assassination?\nMr. ANDREWS. I don't know about that. I didn't know. Yes; I did. I guess\n1 did because I was-they told me I was squirrelly In the hospital.\nMr. LACRELER. You had pneumonia; is that right?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes,\nMr. LIEBELER. And as I understand It, you were under heavy sedation at\nthat time In connection with your treatment for pnemonia?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes; this is what happened: After I got the call, I called my\nsecretary at her home and asked her if she had remembered Lee Harvey Oswald's\nfile. or course, she didn't remember, and 1 had to tell her about all the kooky\nkids, She thought we had a file In the office. I would assume that he would\nZ\nhave called subsequent to this boy's arrest. I am pretty sure IL was before the\ndon't know.\nMr. LIEBELER. You don't mean before the assassination-don't you mean before\nOswald had been shot? After the assassination and before Oswald had been\nshot?\nMr. ANDREWS. After Oswald's arrest and prior to his-\nMr. LICRELER. I!is death?\nMr. ANDREWS. IIIS death.\nMr. LIEBELER. Now my recollection from reviewing reports from the FBI is\nthat you first advised the FRI of this, telling them that you recall that Clay\nHertrand had called you at some time between G o'clock and 0 o'clock In the\nevening and spoke to you about this matter. Do you remember telling the FBI\nabout that?\nMr. ANDREWS. I remember speaking with them. The exact words, I do not,\nbut that's probably correct.\nMr. LIERELER Do you remember what time approximately that Clay Bertrand\ndid call you?\nMr. ANDREWS. T will tell you: They feed around 4:30. By the time I got fed,\nit was about 5 o'clock. They picked the tray up. So that's about the right\ntime. It's around that time.\nMr. LIERELER. Now you said that after Clay Bertrand called you, you called\nyour secretary and asked her If she remembered the Oswald file: is that correct?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: she didn't remember Oswald nt all. She knows that\noccasionally these people walk in and out of the office and she bad remembered\nsomething. but nothing of any value.\nMr. LIEBELER. And do you remember that after you got out of the hospital,\nyou discussed with your secretary the telephone call that you made to her at\nhome?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIEBELER. And do you recall that she said that she remembered that you\ncalled her nt approximately 4 o'clock on the afternoon of November 23, 1003?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIEBELER. Now have you-let's take it one step further: Do you also recall\nthe fact that your private Investigator spent most of that afternoon with you\nin your hospital room?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: he was there. C\nMr. LIERELER. He was there with you?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes; Preston M. Davis.\nMr. LIEBELER. Do you remember approximately what time he left?\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nMr. LIEBELER. Would it have been before you called your secretary or after-\nwards?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIEBELER. Before you colled?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: after.\nMr. LIEBELER. After you called your secretary?\nMr. ANDREWS. Let's sce. Itc wasn't there when I made the phone call. IIc\nthere when Berirand me, I am pretty sure, because he would\nhave remembered it if I didn't\nMr. LICHELER. You discussed it and he doesn't, in fact, remember that you\nreceived the telephone call from Clay Berirand?\nMr. ANDREWS. He wasn't there. While he was there, we received no call from\nClay Bertrand or no call concerning the office or business because I would have\ntalked to him about it.\nMr. LIMBELER You say that he left before you called your secretary?\nMr. ANDREWS. I think be left around chow time, which, I think, IN around\n4 o'clock. I could be wrong.\nMr. LICENLER Now after giving this time sequence that we have talked about\nhere the consideration that I am sure you have after discussing It with the\nFBI, have you come mp with any solution in your own mind to the apparent\nproblems that exist here? That is to sny, that your recollection is that you\ncalled your secretary after you received the call from Clay Bertrand and you\ncalled your secretary at -1 o'clock, which would indicate that you must have\nreceived the call from Clay Bertrand prior to 4 o'clock, but you did not receive\nthe call from Mr. Bertrand while Mr. Davis was there, and he left at approxi-\nmately 4 o'clock or shortly before you called your secretary, in addition to\nwhich, you Grst recall receiving the call from Clay Bertrand some time between\nG o'clock and 2 o'clock in the evening.\nMr. ANDREWS, Well, the time factor T can't help you with. TC is impossible.\nBut I feel this: I wouldn't have called my secretary-If 1 couldn't get her to\nverify it, I would tell you that I was smoking weed. You know, sailing out on\ncloud 0.\nMr. LIEBELER. But, in fact, she did verify the fact that you did call her?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: I often thought it was a nightmare or a dream, but It\nisn't. It's just that I can't place-other than what I told Regis Kennedy and\nJohn Rice, the exact time I can't help you on. But If It hadn't been for calling\nher and asking her-\nMr. LIEBELER. To look up the Oswald file or If she remembered the Oswald\nfile?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: I would just any I have 11 pretty vivid Imagination and let's\njust forget it. Anything other than the law practice - would say that what\nRegis suspects Is that 1 was full of that dope, but I normally take certain steps,\nand this is the way I would have done It is what T did. 1 called her. Had\nDavis been there when the call came In, Davis would have been told, and be\nwould have left the hospital, went down to the office, and shook the office down\nfor the file, and called me from there before he went home. I know II conldn't\nhave come in while he was there. The only media of time that I can use is\neither medication or food. or course, being fat, I like food. I wasn't much\nInterested in food. They weren't feeding me too much, and I am pretty sure\nIt was after medication and food and the tray had been picked up that the call\ncame in.\nMr. LIEBELER. or course, they fed you more than once up there?\nMr. ANDREWS. They feed three times n day, but they don't feed you enough\nto keep a sparrow alive.\nMr. Well, In any event, you are not able to clarify for us the\nsequence of what happened? c\nMr. ANDREWS. Well, the sequence of events had to be this: Davis spent Satur-\nday afternoon with me. He probably left just before chow, and then I ate, and\nthe phone call came in some time after chow. I am positive It wasn't as late\nas 0 o'clock. I think the latest It could have been is C, but Miss Springer says\nI called her some time around 4, :30-1 don't know which.\nMr. Miss Springer is your secretary?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LICENSER. Now do you recall talking to an FRI agent, Regis L. Kennedy,\nand Carl In Schlaeger on November 25?\nMr. ANDREWS. I don't remember-Kennedy, yes; Schlaeger, no. I don't even\nknow If be was in the same room. I don't think I have even seen him, much\nless talk to him.\nMr. Kennedy wast yes?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. LIERELER. They usually go around in pairs?\nMr. ANDREWS. Well, they work in teams, SO he's got to have been there.\nMr. LIEBELER. Now Kennedy came and visited you at the hospital; Is that\ncorrect?\nMr. ANDREWS. Right.\nMr. LIERELER. Now--\nMr. ANDREWS. I remember that pretty good because I called the Feebees, and\nthe guy says to put the phone, you know, and nothing happened.\nMr. LIEBELER. The Feebees?\nMr. ANDREWS. That's what we call the Federal guys, All of a sudden, like\nn big hurricane, here they come.\nMr. LIEBELER. Do you remember telling him at that time that you thought\nthat Clay Bertrand had come into the office with Oswald when Oswald had been\nin the office carller Instrpring?\nMr. ANDREWS. No; I don't remember.\nMr. LIBRELER. Was Bertrand ever in the office with Oswald?\nMr. ANDREWS. Not that ] remember.\nMr. LIEBELER. Do you have a pleture in your mind of this Clay Berirand?\nMr. ANDREWS. Oh, I ran up on that rat about G weeks ago and he spooked, ran\nIn the street. I would have beat him with a chain If I had caught him.\nMr. LIMBELER Let me ask you this: When I was down here in April, before\nI talked to you about this thing, and T was going to take your deposition at\nthat time, but we didn't make arrangements, in your continuing discussions with\nthe FBI, you finally came to the conclusion that Clay Bertrand was a figuent\nof your Imagination?\nMr. ANDREWS. That's what the Feebees put on. I know that the two Feebees\nare going to put these people on the street looking. and I can't find the guy,\nand I am not going to tie пр all the agents on something that Isn't that solid.\nJ told them, \"Write what you want, that I nm nuts. Idon't care.\" They were\nrunning on the time factor, and the hills were shook up plenty to get it, get\nit, get It. I couldn't give It to them. ] have been playing cops and robbers\nwith them. You can tell when the steam is on. They are on you like the\nplagno. They never leave. They are like cancer. Eternal.\nMr. LICRELER. That was the description of the situation?\nMr. ANDREWS. It was my decision If they were to stay there. If I decide\nyes, they stay. If I decide no, they go. So I told them, \"Close your file and\ngo some place else.\" That's the real reason why It was done. I don't know\nwhat they wrote In the report, but that's the real reason.\nMr. LICENSER. Now subsequent to that time, however, you actually ran into\nClay Bertrand In the street?\nMr. ANDREWS. About G weeks ago I am trying to think of the name of this\nbar. That's where this raseal bums out. I was trying to get past him so\nI could get a nickel In the phone and call the Feebees or John Rice, but he\nsaw me and spooked and ran. I haven't seen him since.\nMr. LIEBELLR. Did you talk to him that day?\nMr. ANDREWS. No; If I would have got close enough to talk to him. I would\nhave grabbed him.\nMr. LIEBELLE. What does this guy look like?\nMr. ANDREWS. He Is about 5 feet 8 inches. Got sandy hair, blue cyc3, ruddy\ncomplexion. Must weigh about 105. 170, 175. He really took off, that rascal.\nMr. LIEBELER. He recognized you? C.,\nMr. ANDREWS. He had to because If he would have let me get to that phono\nand make the call, he would be In custody.\nMr. LICENSER. You wanted to get hold of this guy and make him available\nto the FBI for Interview, or Mr. Rice of the Secret Service?\nMr. ANDREWS. What T wanted to do and should have done Is crack him in\nthe head with a bottle, but I figured would be n good, law-abiding citizen\nand call them and Ict Them grab him, but I made the biggest mistake of the\ncentury. I should have grabbed him right there. I probably will never find\nhim again. Ilc has been bugging me ever since this happened.\nMr. LIKENCER. Now before you ran Into Clay Bertrand in the street on this\nday, did you have a notion In your mind what he looked like?\nMr. ANDREWS. I had seen him before one time to recognize him.\nMr. LIERELER. When you saw him that day, he appeared to you as he had\nbefore when you recognized him?\nMr. ANDREWS. He hasn't changed any appearance, I don't think. Maybe a\nlittle fatter, maybe a little skinnier.\nMr. LAEBELER. Now I have a rather lengthy report of an Interview that Mr.\nKennedy had with you on December 5. 1963, in which he reports you as stating\nthat you had a mental picture of Clay Bertrand as being approximately C feel\n1 inch to G feet 2 inches in height, brown hair, and well dressed.\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. Now this description Is different, at least in terms of height of\nthe man, than the one you have Just given us of Clay Bertrand.\n2\nMr. ANDREWS, Thit, you know, 1 don't play Boy Scouts and measure them.\nJ have only seen this fellow twice in my life. 1 don't think there is that much\nin the description. There may be some to some artist, but to me, there but\nthat much difference. Might be for you all.\nMr. LATHELLER. 1 think you said he was 5 feet S inches before.\nMr. ANDREWS. Well, ] can't give you any better because this time 1 was look-\ning for the fellow, he was sitting down. I am just estimating. You meet a\nguy 2 years ago, you meet him, period.\nMr. LIEBELER. Which time was he sitting down?\nMr. ANDREWS. He was standing up first time.\nMr. LACRELER. I thought you met him on the street the second time when\nyou-\nMr. ANDREWS. No, he was in a barroom.\nMr. LICENSER. The was sitting in n bar when you saw him 6 weeks age?\n2\nMr. ANDREWS, A table at the right-hand side I go there every now and\nthen spooking for him.\nMr. LIEBELER. What's the name of the bar you saw him In that day, do you\nremember?\nMr. ANDREWS, Cosimo's, used to be. Little freaky joint.\nMr. LIEBELER. Well, now, If you didn't see him standing up on that day\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nCMr. LIERELLE So that you didn't have any basis on which to change your\nmental picture of this man In regard to his height from the first one that\nyou had?\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nMr. LIERELER. I am at a loss to understand why you told Agent Kennedy on\nDecember 5 that 1:0 was G feet 1 to G feet 2 and now you have told us that he\nwas 5 feet S when at no time did you see the man standing up.\nMr. ANDREWS. Because, I guess, the first time-and 1 am guessing now--\nMr. LIERELEE Is this follow a homosexual, do you say?\nMr. ANDREWS. Bisexual. What they call A swinging eat.\nMr. LIEBELER. And you haven't seen him nt any time since that day?\nMr. ANDREWS. I haven't seen him since.\nMr. LICENSE Now have you had your office searched for any records relating\nto Clay Bertrand?\nMr. ANDEEWS. Yes.\nMr. LICENSE. Have you found anything? C.\nMr. ANDREWS. No: nothing.\nMr. Has this fellow Bertrand sent you business in the past?\nMr. ANDREWS. Prior to-I guess. the last time would be February of 1963.\nMr. LIEBELER. And mostly he refers, I think you said, these gay kids, is that\nright?\nMr. ANDREWS. Right\nMr. LIEBELER. In discussing this matter with your private detective, Mr.\nDavis, and Miss Springer, your secretary. have you asked them whether or not\nthey have any recollection of ever having seen Oswald In the office?\nMr. ANDREWS. Davis does; Springer doesn't.\nMr. LIEBELER. Davis does have a recollection?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes; he recalls. He usually stays with me until about clos-\nIng time. We review whatever he is doing. and he remembers them AN a group.\nMr. LAKEELER. So he was there then the first time they were there? The only\ntime that he was with a group is the first time, is that right?\nMr. ANDREWE, Right\nMr. LAEMILER. Have you discussed with Miss Springer and Mr. Davis the\nwhereabouts or any recollection they might have about Clay Bertrand?\nMr. ANDREWS. They weren't with me, 1 believe, at the time I knew Bertrand.\nMr. Have you disensed it with them?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: but they weren't employed by me at the time I knew him.\nMr. LAKEELER. So they have no recollection of Bertrand?\nMr. ANDREWS.-No\nMr. LIEBELER.-When Oswald came Into your office, of course, he told you what\nhis name was, didn't he?\nMr. ANDREWS. Tee Oswald. I don't know whether that's his name or not.\nMr. LIEBELER. That that's what he told you?\nMr. ANDREWS. That's what he told me.\nMr. LIEBELER Do you remember discussing or mentioning his name to Davis\nat any time prior to November 23, 1003?\nMr. ANDREWS. What the procedure Is-I am in a different office now than I\nwas then, and II was a very small office, and they would come into il-well,\nwhat I would call my office-and they just had the reception room out in the\nfront, and Davis would go out there, and on those matters, It's not a matter\nthat he would be discussing. but probably some words passed as to the swishing\nand the characteristics that they had, but other than that in the business, unless\nsomething is assigned to him, he knows nothing in that office unless it is assigned\nto him.\nMr. LIEBELER So you say you probably did not mention Oswald's name to\nDavis?\nMr. ANDREWS. I probably did not, other than we commented on the group in\ngeneral, but none of the business that was involved or any names.\nMr. LACHELER Is It an extraordinary thing for a bunch of gay kids to come\nInto your office like that, or did they come from time to time?\nMr. ANDREWS. Well, let's see. Last week there were six of them in there.\nDepends on how had the police are rousing them. They shoo them in. My\nbest customers are the police. They shoo them into the office. God bless\nthe police.\nMr. LIMBELER. Did you ever know a man by the name of Kerry Thornley as\none of these may kids?\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nMr. LIEBELER. Have you ever heard of Thornley?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: I represent them and that's about all there is to It. When\nthey owe me money. I know where to go grab them, and that's about as far as\nIt goes. Is he supposed to be down here?\nMr. LIEBELLE. Thornley?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes; can find out If he ever made the scene here real easy.\nMr. LIEBELER. No; he Is not In New Orleans, I don't think, at the moment.\nWhen Oswald told you about his discharge, did he tell you what branch of the\nservice he had been in?\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nMr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you why he got discharged?\nMr. ANDREWS. No.\nMr. LIEBELER. Did he tell you what kind of n discharge he had? C\nMr. ANDREWS. He told me be was dishonorably discharged. That's what I\ncall n yellow sheet discharge. I told him I needed his serial number, the service\nhe was In, the approximate time he got discharged, and, I think, $15 or $25, I\nforget which, and to take the service, his rate or rank, the scrial number, and\nto write to the Adjutant General for the transcript of the proceedings that\nwashed him out 50 that they could be examined and SCC If there was any method\nof reopening or reconsideration on the ille.\nMr. LIMBELER. But he did not tell you any of those things?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: he said he would come back, and he came back, but 1 still\ndidn't get his serial number and 1 still didn't get the money.\nMr. LIEBELER, Do you remember specifically that he stated he had a dishomor-\nable discharge as opposed to some other kind of discharge? Do you have n\nspecific recollection on that?\nMr. ANDREWS. We call them in the Navy, B.C.D.'s and I associated that. 11c\nnever mentioned the specific type discharge. It was one that was other than\nhonorable, as we would put It in the legal sense. I just assumed II was a B.C.D.\nIf he was in the Marines or Navy. If he was in the Army, it's a yellow discharge.\nMr. LIEBELER. Did be tell you if he was working at that time or If he had A\njob when he first came Into your office?\nMr. ANDREWS. Never asked him.\nMr. LIERELER. Did he associate his other than honorable discharge with dif-\nficulty in obtaining employment?\nMr. ANDREWS. I just don't remember. Ilc had a reason why he wanted It\nreopened. What, I don't recall. Ile had n reason. I don't recall. 11c men-\ntioned a reason, but 1 don't recall. 1 was trying to remember where they were\nseated to see if that would help. but no.\nMr. LICENSER. Tell me approximately how tall Oswald was.\nMr. ANDREWE. Oh, about 5 feet G inches, 5 feet 7 inches, I guess.\nMr. LIKELER. And about how much did he weigh?\nMr. ANDREWS. About 135, 110.\nMr. LIEBELEE. I don't think I have any more questions. Do you have any-\nthing else that you would like to add?\nMr. ANDREWS. T wish T could be more specific, that's all. This is my Impres-\nsion, for whatever It is worth, of Clay Bertrand: Ilis connections with Oswaid\nI don't know nt all. I think he is a lawyer without a brief case. That's my\nopinion. He sends the kids different places. Whether this boy is associated\nwith Lee Oswald or not, I don't know, but I would say, when I met him about\n6 weeks ago when I ran up on him and he ran away from me, he could be running\nbecause he owes me money, or he could be running because They have been\nsqueezing The quarter pretty good looking for him while I was in the hospital,\nand somebody might have passed the word he was hot and I was looking for\nhim, but I have never been able to figure out the reason why he would call me,\nand the only other part of this thing that I understand. but apparently I haven't\nbeen able to communicate, Is 1 called Monk Zelden on a Sunday at the N.O.A.C.\nand asked Monk if he would 100 over- Interested in a retainer and 20 over to\nDallas and see about that boy. I thought 1 called Monk once. Monk says\nwe talked twice. ] don't remetaber the second. It's all one conversation with\nme. Only thing I do remember about it, while T was talking with Monk, In said,\n:: \"Don't worry about IL Your client just got shot.\" That was the end of the\ncase. Even If he was n bona fide client, T never did get to him: somebody else\ngot to him before I did. Other than that, that's the whole things but this boy\nBertrand has been bugging me ever since. I will find him sooner or later.\nMr. Does Bortraind owe you money?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: \"nin't looking for him for that, I want to find out why\nhe called me on behalf of this boy after the President was assassinated.\nq\nMr. LICENSER. How come Bertrand owes you money?\nMr. ANDREWS. I have done him some legal work that he has falled to pay the\noffice for.\nMr. LIEBELER. When was that?\nMr. ANDREWS. That's in a period of years that I have-like you are Bertrand.\nYou call up and ask me to go down and get Mr. X out. If Mr. X doesn't pay on\nthose kinds of calls, Bertrand has n guarantee for the payment of appearance.\nOne or two of these kids had skipped. I had to go pay the penalty, which was\na lot of trouble. C.\nMr. LAKHELER. You were going to hold Bertrand for that?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes.\nMr. Did Oswald appear to you to be gay?\nMr. ANDREWS. You can't tell. I couldn't say. He swang with the kids. He\ndidn't swish, but birds of a feather flock together. I don't know any squares\nthat run with them. They may CO down in look\nMr. LICRETER. When you say he didn't swish, what Co you mean by that?\nMr. ANDREWS. He is not effeminate: his voice isn't squeaky; he didn't walk\nlila or Talk like n girl: he walks and talks like a man.\nMr. Did you notice anything about the way he walked? Was there\nanything striking about the way be carried himself?\nMr. ANDREWS. I never paid attention. I never watched him walk other than\nInto and ont of the office. There's nothing that would draw my attention to any-\nthing out of the ordinary, but ) Just assumed that he knew these people and was\nwith them. They had no reason to come. The three gay kids he was\nwith, they were ostentations, They were what we call swishers. You can just\n1000 IT Them. All they had to do was open their mouth. That was it. Walk,\nthey can swing better than Sammy Kaye. They do real good. With those pro-\nnouneed ones, you never know what the relationship is with anyone else with\ntheat, but I have no way of telling whether he is gay or not, other than he came\nin with what they call here queens, That's about it.\nMr. LIEBELER. You have never seen any of these people since that first day\nthey came Into your office with Oswald, that first day and when you saw them\ndow at the police station?\nMr. ANDREWS. The three queens? The three gay boys? No; I have never\nseen them.\nMr. LIEBELER. There were Just three of them?\nMr. ANDREWS. The Latte type. Mexicanos will crop their hair and a Latin\nwon't, 50 I assume he Is a Mex.\nMr. LICRELER. So altogether there were five of them that came Into the office?\nMr. ANDREWS Five. The only other thing that shook me to my toes-you\nhave the other part-the Secret Service brought me some things. They don't\n1\nhave the complete photograph. They have another photograph with the two\nRealpey sisters. They are actually In the office, and that shook me down to my\ntoes pretty good.\nMr. Lar RELER [handing: picture to witness]. The picture you refer to might\nbe Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Is that the one?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes, this is it. Victoria Renipey-Plaza and her sister Mar-\nguerite Realpey-Plaza, and I can't recall this young Indy's name here at all\nIndicating].\nMr. You are pointing to the three women who are standing C,\nMr. ANDREWS. The one facing, standing as you look at It.\nMr. That's the one you can't Identify?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes; I have her file In the office. Uncle is n warden at the\nParis Prison here in New Orleans.\nMr. LIMBELER. And you are referring to the three women that are standing\nat the right side of Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B?\nMr. ANDREWS. The girl carrying the pocketbook.\nMr. LICRELER. That's the one whose name you can't remember at the moment?\nMr. ANDREWS. Right.\nMr. LICBELER. Now this little fellow standing on the far left side of the pic-\nture, have you ever seen him before? Is he one of those gay boys who were\nIn the office?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: these were all Americanos, these boys. He may be, but\nhe is Latin looking.\nMr. LIEBELER. Ile looks like a Latin?\nMr. ANDREWS. Right. This boy should be able to be found. I wanted to look\nfor bim, but I didn't have a picture of him.\nMr. LICENCER. Who Is that?\nMr. ANDREWS. The one you just asked me about. If you put some circulars\naround to have the Latin American people squeezed gently, he has got to be\nfound, They are very clannish. There are only certain places they go. Some-\nbody has to remember him. He can't just come Into New Orleans and disnp-\npear. As long as he walks the street, he has to eat and he has to have somo\nplace to sleep and-but I didn't have a picture of him, and nobody-you just\ncan't do IL But n lot of water has run under the stream. IIc may or may\nnot be here, but It wouldn't be too hard to locate him, you know, with the proper\nIdentification.\nMr. LICHELLE Well, your friends down the street have been trying to find\nhim and haven't come up with him yet.\nMr. ANDREWS. Debrueys?\nMr. LIEBELEE. Yes.\nMr. ANDREWS. Sometimes the stools on that are not too good. They need\nLatin stools for that boy.\nMr. LIEBELER. Off the record.\n(Discussion off the record.)\nMr. LIEBELER. Did you just indicate that you would like to find Mr. Bertrand\nand he did run off? Did you see him run off?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: I chased him, but I couldn't go.\nMr. LIEBELER. This was when you saw him G weeks ago?\nMr. ANDREWS. Yes: this barroom is right adjacent to-the street-ns you go\nin, there are two.entrances. one on the block side and one on the corner. I had\nno more Idea of finding him than imping off the bridge. I went in there hoping.\nand the hope came through. J was 80 surprised to see him there. I kept work-\nIng my way there to 20 to the front when be recognized me and he sprinted\nout the door 011 the side of the street and was gone. I had in to past him to\ngo to the phone. 1 should have conked him with the beer bottle.\nMr. LUMBER He took off as soon as he saw you?\nMr. ANDREWS. No: but I was moving to go to the phone. He thought I was\nmoving towards him.\nMr. LIEBLIER Thanding picture to witness]. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No.\n453-A, and ask you If you can recognize anybody in that picture.\nMr. ANDREWS. The one that has a brief case under his arm, full. face towards\nthe looker, appears to be Lee Oswald. This boy back here [indicating] appears\nto be familiar, but ] would have to blow his face up in be sure. He is in\nbetween. See, this one here [indicating]? I have never seen this picture\nbefore.\nMr. LIEBELER. Between Oswald, who has the cross mark over his head, and\nthe man who has the arrow over his head?\nMr. ANDREWS. He is a local boy here, a face I recall. It would take me a\nwhile to place it, bin the face appears to be familiar.\nMr. LIERELLE. You haven't seen this picture before, Is that correct?\nMr. ANDREWS. ] don't believe.\nMr. LIEBELER. The Secret Service and the FBI have shown you various pic-\ntures, but you don't recall this one?\nMr. ANDREWS. I don't recall seeing that one. There was one of a series\nwhere-one of an attorney in town was there--where we all knew him. They\nmay have shown me this, but I don't remember. We used to have a club back\nIn 1916 called Lock (?) Fraternity, and he resembles a boy that was a member.\nMr. LIEBELER. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Andrews. I\nwant to thank you very much for coming in and I appreciate the cooperation\nyou have given us.\nMr. ANDREWS. I only wish I could do better.\nTESTIMONY OF EVARISTO RODRIGUEZ\nThe testimony of Evaristo Rodriguez, was taken on July 21, 1961. at the Old\nCivil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley\nJ. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Special Agent\nRichard F. Logan, interpreter, Federal Bureau of Investigation. was present.\nEvaristo Rodriguez, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified,\nthrough the Interpreter, Mr. Logan, ns follows:\nMr. LIEBELER. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission\nInvestigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to\ntako your testimony by the Commission internant in\nMEMORANDUM\nTO:\nLOUIE IVON, Chief Investigator\nFROM:\nGARY SANDERS, Investigator\nSUBJECT:\nDEAN ANDREWS\nRE:\nINTERVIEW WITH RICHARD ROLFE\nJanuary 11, 1968\n627 Dumaine St.\nNew Orleans, La.\n525-0184\nMR. RICHARD ROLFE and his wife JUNE ROLFE were interviewed on\nJanuary 11, 1968, at the office of his business establishment at\n627 Dumaine St. Miss Jody Duek attended this interview and tooh\nnotes from which this report is written.\nRICHARD ROLFE mentioned during the interview that a short time\nago he had been walking down the street with a client and had\nmet DEAN ANDREWS, who was walking with a \"Quanter Girl, sarape,\nsandals, the whole bit,\" and they had talked briefly. He had\nsaid to DEAN that he should drop by ROLFE'S office some day and\nthey could talk.\nDEAN ANDREWS had never previously been to ROLFE'S office. But\na few days later he came in, and said \"Come on baby, let's make\nsome money\". ROLFE replied that that would be fine with him,\nand asked for an explanation. DEAN said that he wondered if\nhe built a sound studio, to be used to tape TV shows etc., kind\nof a recording studio here in the city and rent the Cacilities\nout, would it go over well. ROLFE said it could definitely have\nmetit, especially for the politicians, who could record their\nspeeches for television without their opposition knowing what\nthey were going to say before they said it. ROLFE said it would\ndefinitely go over well.\nROLFE then said that although it would surely go over well, it\nwould cost a lot of money, at least a quarter of a million\ndollars.\nANDREWS immediately replied that it would be exactly $300,000.00\nDICK ROLFE then said that that was fine, but since neither of\nthem had that kind of money, they might as well forget it.\nDEAN ANDREWS then said \"I can get the equipment here, all I have\nto do is make a phone call, I'll have open credit, I can pay off\non any terms, I have to give up 10-15% of the action and I can\nget it.\"\nROLFE said he didn't want to be nosy but would like to know just\nwho was going to do this for DEAN.\nDEAN'S direct quote via ROLFE was: \"Look, BOBBY SARNOFF premised\nme those facilities, and he'd better pay off, baby.\"\nGary M. Sanders\nGMS:jld\nDean Andrews Files Suit\nfor Damages Against DA\nLawyer Seeks $100,000\nfrom Garrison\nLawyer Dean Andrews, who\nwas twice indicted by the Or-\nleans Parish Grand Jury in con-\nnection with District Attorney\nJim Garrison's assassination\nprobe, filed a $100,000 damage\nsuit in federal court Tuesday\nagainst Garrison\nAndrews alleges in the suit\nthat Garrison deprived him of\nhis civil rights.\nThe sult was filed shortly aft-\ner Andrews pleaded innocent for\nthe second time that he per-\njured himself before the grand\njury in connection with Garri-\nson's investigation into the death\nof President John F. Kennedy.\nAndrews, who was suspended\nas an assistant district attor-\nney in Jefferson Parish, alleged\nGarrison used sworn testimony\nof his (Andrews') before the\nWarren Commission investiga-\ntor, then placed him before the\ngrand jury and compelled him\n\"to answer questions designed\nto trap him. full knowing that\nplaintiff had no knowledge of\nany conspiracy or any facts ma-\nterial to a conspiracy to murder\nJohn F. Kennedy.'\n'DRUG OFFERED'\nThe suit further alleges that\nGarrison sought to discredit him\nby offering him sodium pente-\nthol, hypnosis and a lie detector\ntest and making same known\nto the public, knowing \"that\nnone of the systems are of any\nlegal value whatsoever.'\nAndrews said the district at-\ntorney caused him to be indict-\ned two separate times for per-\njury, knowing \"the plaintiff has\nand did not commit perjury at\nany time.\"\nGarrison, in his investiga-\ntion, contended businessman\nClay Shaw is the same person\nas \"Clay Bertrand.\" whom\nAndrews said asked him to\ndefend Lee Harvey Oswald\nafter the assassination.\nShaw was charged with par-\nticipating in a conspiracy to\nmurder the President. Shaw,\nformer managing director of the\nInternational Trade Mart, de-\nnied the charge and said he nev.\ner used an alias.\nIn his suit, Andrews claims\nCont. in See. 1, Page 3, Col. 5\nLA., WEDNESDAY MORNING. APRIL 19, 1967\nSECTION ONE-PAGE THREE\nANDREWS FILES $100,000 SUIT\nday to testify before the grand\nbylined account Tuesday copy.\njury.\nrighted by the Dayton Daily\nBut she has never been served\nNews, of using the Kennedy as-\nContinued from Page 1\nwith the court order ordering\nsassination probe to further his\nher here from her Omaha, Neb.,\npolitical career.\nGarrison is of the personal opin-\ntion of Andrews' testimony of\nhome. Omaha authorities say\n\"Garrison came up with this\nion that Andrews can identify\nJuly 21, 1964, before Wesley\nshe has left the state and can-\nidea after the Warren Report\nClay Shaw as Bertrand, al-\nJ. Liebeler, assistant counsel\nnot be served.\ncame out and all the books\nthough he told Garrison \"that\nof the Warren Commission.\nShe was arrested two weeks\nagainst It were being written.\nAndrews pleaded innocent to\nago in Omaha and was freed\nGarrison sees this as putting\nthere was no connection be-\nthe second indictment Tuesday\non a $1,000 bond after Garrison's\nhim in Washington\nbig\npol-\ntween Clay Shaw and Clay Ber-\nbefore Judge Frank Shea.\noffice swore out a material wit-\nitics,\" Novel said.\ntrand.\"\nAndrews' attorney, Sam Monk\nness warrant against her. She\n\"The whole Garrison investi-\n'OPINION' HIT\nZelden, asked 10 days in which\nwas due to appear at a hearing\ngation thing is fiction,\" Novel\nGarrison's belief in this mat-\nto file special pleadings and\nin her behalf next week in\nadded. \"I know the full story\nter is \"arbitrary, capricious and\nwas given until May 1.\nOmaha.\nfrom working as the prosecu-\nUnder the bond, Mrs. Me-\ntor's security chief.\"\nnot founded on any fact,\" the\nZelden called the second in-\nsuit contends.\ndictment \"just as bad as the\nMaines was allowed to travel\n(Garrison says Novel never\nother one,\" said there were\noutside the state and did not\nworked for him.)\nThe suit alleges Garrison first\nmany inconsistencies in the in-\nhave to reappear until the hear-\nNovel, wanted by Garrison as\nrevealed his investigation to\ndictment and that the accusa-\ning.\na witness in the assassination\nAndrews at a meeting Oct. 29,\ntion \"doesn't say in what re-\nMrs. McMaines denied testi-\ninquiry and arrested in the Co-\n1968, and between that date and\nmony given by Russo in a pre-\nlumbus area on a Louisiana\nspect the accused is supposed\nthe first week of February Gar-\nto have perjured himself.\"\nliminary hearing for Shaw that\ncharge of conspiracy to commit\nThe district attorney's office\nshe attended a party at which\nburglary, said Garrison wants\nrison had frequent conversa-\nquashed the earlier indictment\nShaw, Ferrie and Oswald were\nhim returned to New Orleans\ntions with Andrews about the\nbecause \"I know too much\non grounds it was vague. The\npresent.\nprobe.\nabout him.\"\nsecond indictment cited 2,000\nNovel in Article\nAt one point in the story, No-\nIt states that Garrison as-\nwords of testimony Andrews\nvel sald, \"I think Garrison will\nsigned Andrews a code name,\ngave to the investigative body.\nAccuses Garrison\nespose some CIA (Central Intel-\nthe name of an Army associate.\nIn part of the grand jury tes-\nDAYTON, Ohio (AP) - Gor-\nligence Agency) operations in\nand gave him two private phone\ntimony in which Andrews was\ndon Novel accused New Orleans\nLouisiana.\" He did not amplify\nnumbers.\ncited for perjury, he answered\nDist. Atty. Jim Garrison. in a this statement.\na question about Clay Bertrand\nExhibit B submitted with\nS\nand Clay Shaw this way:\nthe suit was a small piece of\nwrinkled paper with a name,\n\"I get the impression you all\nr\nC\na home and office phone num-\nwant me to Identify Clay Shaw\nber and \"used to be with me\nas Clay Bertrand-I'll be honest\nin the Army\" written in long-\nwith you that is the impression\nI\nI get.\n)\nhand. The name appeared to\n9\nbe Henry Reminer, but the\nAssistant district attorney\nonly letters that were clear\nRichard Burnes: \"Well?\"\nin the last name were the\nAndrews: \"And I can't. I can't\n\"Re\" and \"er.\"\nsay he is and 1 can't say he\nFollowing is a description of\nain't.\nother exhibits submitted by\nPLOT ALLEGED\nAndrews:\nGarrison contended Shaw, Os.\nExhibit A was an uncertified\nwal and David W. Ferrie, a de-\ncopy of the first grand jury\nceased pilot, plotted to kill Ken-\nindictment of Andrews. Exhibit\nnedy.\nC consisted of several photo-\nFerrie died Feb. 22 while un-\ngraphs.\nder investigation: and Oswald\nOne was a photograph of two\nwas shot to death by Jack\npages of an open book. The top\nRuby, Dallas nightclub owner,\nof one page was enscribed\ntwo days after the assassination.\n\"Sheriff's Department. County\nIn other action, legal papers\nof Dallas, Tex.\" Beneath the\nwere in the mails on their way\ntitle was a notarized statement\nto Ohio, seeking return of Gor-\nof Eddie Piper of Dallas, made\ndon Novel to Louisiana. Novel,\nNov. 23, 1963. The statement,\nsought as a material witness in\nwhich was not entirely visible\nthe probe, is free on bond in\nin the photograph, concerned\nColumbus.\nLee Harvey Oswald.\nActing Gov. C. C. Aycock\nONE MUG SHOT\nsigned extradition papers Mon-\nAnother photograph was a po-\nday.\nlice mug shot of Emilio Galindo\nThe papers are not based\nSantana, 20. 2654 Alvar, factory\non a fugitive material witness\nworker, Carbarien, Cuba. On\ncharge, which is not 3 basis\nthe back of the photo, it said\nfor extradition in Ohio, but on\nSantana was booked with two\na charge 01 conspiracy to bur-\ncounts of burglary Aug. 21,\nglarize a Hourn munitions\n1964.\nbunker in 1961.\nThe other photos appeared to\nLillie Mae Moffett McMaines.\nbe enlarged reproductions of\na one-time girl friend of Garri-\npictures in 'the book oppsite\nson's star witness Perry Ray.\nPiper's statement,\nmond Russo, was to have been\nExhibit D was a transcrip-\nreturned to New Orleans Tues-\nFILES 3 MOTIONS\nAndrews Seeking\nAndrews Seeking\nTo Lift Probe Lid\nTo Lift Probe Lid\nContinued from Page 1\nour stories under oath and\nDean Andrews Jr. filed three motions today in Criminal\ndrews charges he did not tell\nDistrict Court simed at prying open the lid of secrecy\nthe truth when questioned\nsubject to cross-examination\nS\nclamped on the Orleans Parish grand jury's investigation Into\nabout whether Clay Bertrand\nand the laws of perjury of\nthe assassination of President John F. Kennedy.\nwas actually Clay Shaw.\nthe state of Louisiana,\nAndrews, indicted by the jury for perjury, filed a motion\n\"This would give an impar-\nfor over, a motion to inspect\nIN ANOTHER development\ntial body of 12 men an oppor-\nhis testimony before the jury,\ntoday, the district attorney's\ntunity to decide once and for\nand a motion for an order per-\noffice filed exceptions to a\npetition by Shaw's attorneys\nall what is fact and what is\nmitting the disclosure of grand\nto make magazine writer\nfiction,\" he said.\njury testimony.\nJames Phelan a material wit-\nEach of the motions is a dif-\nSclambra said that the dis-\nness in the case against\nferent legal maneuver de-\nShaw.\ntrict attorney's office will pay\nsigned to make public An-\nPhelan is author of an ar-\nfor Phelan's transportation\ndrews' complete testimony be-\nticle which appeared in the\nand lodging in New Orleans\nfore the jury on March 16.\nSaturday Evening Post that\nand added that \"I stand by\nevery statement I have ever\nsuggested that Perry Russo,\nA SUSPENDED Jefferson\nthe man who testified he\nmade concerning Mr. Phelan\nParish assistant district at-\nand his article.\nheard Shaw, Ferrie and Os-\ntorney, Andrews was indicted\nwald plot to kill Kennedy,\ntwo weeks ago in an unpre-\nmay have been under a post-\nhypnotic suggestion when he\ncedented 11-foot-long charge\nwas questioned.\nafter an earlier indictment\nAssistant Dist. Attys. James\nwas dismissed by the district\nAlcock, Andrew Sciambra\nattorney's office.\nand Richard Burnes filed a\nIn his motions today, An-\nwritten answer to the de-\ndrews argued that he is un-\nfense's petition before Judge\nable \"to properly prepare his\nFrank Shea. Judge Shea or-\ndefenses or to assist his coun-\ndered a 10:30 a. m. hearing\nsel.\"\nWednesday on the matter.\nAndrews told the Warren\nCommission in its investiga-\nTHE STATE argued that\ntion of the Kennedy death that\nthere is no provision under\nhe received a telephone call\nLouisiana law to take testi-\nfrom a \"Clay Bertrand\" short-\nmony of a witness in advance\nly after the assassination ask-\nof a trial except in a pre-\ning him to defend Lee Harvey\nliminary hearing, which has\nOswald, whom the commis-\nalready been held, or in the\nsion says killed the President.\ncase of a witness who is im-\nprisoned.\nGARRISON HAS identified\nThe assistant district attor-\nBertrand and Clay L. Shaw,\nney contended that the only\nretired managing director of\nway testimony can be taken\nInternational Trade Mart, as\nin advance of the trial is be-\nthe same man.\nfore the grand jury.\nShaw has been accused by\nC\nThey noted that Phelan has\nGarrison of conspiring with\nsaid he is willing to testify\nOswald and the late David\nand the \"state is equally in-\nW. Ferrie to kill Kennedy.\nterested in obtaining his\nShaw has denied the charge\nsworn statement.\"\n3\nand also that he used the\nname of Clay Bertrand as\nLATER THIS morning,\n7\nan alias,\nSciambra issued a statement\n2\nThe indictment against An-\nhim. asking Phelan to testify with\n16 (Turn to Page 17, Column 2)\nIn his article, Phelan said\ntha. the first time Russo\ntalked with Sciambra. no\nmention was made of the al-\nleged meeting which Russo\nattended in which he over-\nheard the plot.\nSciambra has called the\narticle untrue.\nIn his statement, Sciambra\nsaid that in law the only way\nat the present time for Phe-\nlan to testify under oath\n\"would be a joint appearance\nby Mr. Phelan and myself\nbefore the Orleans Parish\nGrand Jury.\"\nSCIAMBRA SAID Phelan\nhas stated over radio and\ntelevision broadcásts his will-\ningness to testify in New Or-\nleans and added that \"if Mr.\nPhelan is sincere in his re-\nquest, at this time I would\nlike to extend an invitation\nto him to appear with me\nvoluntarily before the grand\njury where we can both tell\nNS STATES-ITEM\nMAY 2. 1967\nDA 'Plot' Probe Unfair, Claims Ruby Attorney\nThe defense attorney who\ntomorrow on a fugitive war-\nrepresented Jack Ruby has\nferson\nParish\nDA's\nassistant,\npredicted that Dist. Atty. Jim\nrant issued by Garrison against\nhas been Indicted for perjury\nGarrison's Kennedy death plot\na witness wanted in the in-\nin connection with the investiga-\ninvestigation will result in con-\nvestigation.\ntion.\nvictions \"on peripheral\nGordon Novel, a 29-year-old\ncharges.\"\nIn a motion filed with Judge\nformer New Orleans bar own-\n\"I don't think it's right,\" Mel-\nFrank G. Shea, Andrews asked\nvin Belli of San Francisco, add-\ner, is scheduled to go to court\nfor all testimony taken in his\ned. \"It is unfair. 1 believe\nthere to show why he shouldn't\nbe returned to New Orleans.\nappearance before the jury,\nthe Warren Commission was\nplus the right to inspect all\nright.\"\nGarrison has charged Novel\nBelli made his comments\nand former New Orleans anti-\ngrand jury testimony in the\ncase.\nyesterday at San Antonio, Tex.,\nCastro leader Sergio Arcacha\nAndrews contended the de-\nwhere he spoke to a Law Day\nSmith with conspiracy to bur-\ndinner of the San Antonio Trial\nglarize an explosives dump at\nfense needs the testimony in\nHouma in 1961.\norder to prepare his case. He\nLawyers Association.\ntold the Warren Commission a\nHE WAS THE chief attorney\nYesterday, another Garrison\nfor Ruby when the Dallas night\nprobe witness, Dean A. An-\nmysterious man named Clay\nclub owner was convicted of\ndrews Jr., asked Criminal Dis-\nBertrand asked him to repre-\nslaying Lee Harvey Oswald,\ntrict Court to lift the lid of\nsent Oswald after Kennedy's\nslaying. Garrison has said Ber-\nwho was named by the War-\nsecrecy on Grand Jury in-\ntrand and Shaw are the same\nren Commission as President\nquiries into the case.\nman. Andrews told grand\nJohn F. Kennedy's lone assas-\njurors he could not connect the\nsin.\nANDREWS, A suspended Jef- two.\nGarrison charges Oswald con-\nspired with the late David W.\nFerrie and 54-year-old retired\nOrleans businessman Clay\nShaw to murder Kennedy at\nllas in 1963.\n31.\nFerrie, a onetime airline pi-\ndied Feb. 22-five days\nafter Garrison's investigation\nJURY REINDICTS\nbecame public. The coroner said\nhe died of natural causes.\nShaw is free on $10,000 bond\nPROBE WITNESS\nhere awaiting trial.\nMEANWHILE: a hearing is\nAndrews Now Faces Five\nscheduled at Columbus, Ohio,\nCounts of Perjury\nDean A. Andrews Jr., once\nindicted for perjury in Kennedy\nassassination probe testimony,\nwas reindicted Wednesday by\nthe Orleans Parish Grand Jury\nfor the same perjury charge\nand five counts were specified.\nAdditionally, the jury rein-\ndicted Edgar Labat and Clif-\nton A. Poret for the 1950 rape\nof a white woman. The Su-\npreme Court Monday refused\nto hear a Louisiana appeal\nfrom a ruling by the Fifth\nCircuit Court of Appeals,\nwhich reversed the men's con-\nvictions.\nLabat was convicted in 1953\nfor the rape of a white woman\nin a dark alley in New Orleans\nin 1950. Poret was convicted of\nalding and abetting the rape.\nThe pair has been on death\nrow at Angola for 14 years.\nTestimony by Andrews cen-\ntered around whether he could\npositively identify Clay L. Shaw,\nprominent New Orleans busi-\nnessman, as Clay Bertrand\nwho, Andrews told the Werren\nCommission, called him Novem-\nber, 1963, and asked him to de-\nfend the accused killer of Presi-\ndent John F. Kennedy, Lee\nHarvey Oswald.\nThis move on the part of the\ndistri attorney's office appar-\nently resulted from the fact\nthat Andrews\" attorneys ques-\ntioned the first undictment in\nCOUST, Unit the\nPOSOL\nNEW ORLEANS STATES - ITEN\nECORDING TODAY'S STORY OF PROGRESS\nListen to The States-Item Chimes at 9, Noon and 5\nWESTSIDE\n-NO. 265\nThe Associated Press. North American News-\nTUESDAY, APRIL 18, 1967\nSecond-Class Postage Paid\npaper Allinnce, NEA Service and AP Wirephoto\nat New Orleans, La.\nPRICE 10c\nEDITION\nean Andrews Again Pleads Not Guilt\nORLEANS\nSTATES\nTODAY'S STORY OF PROGRESS\nListen to The States-Item Chimes at 9, Noon and 5\nss, North American News-\nService and AP Wirephoto\nTUESDAY, APRIL 18, 1967\nSecond-Class Postage Paid\nat New Orleans, La.\nPRICE 10c\ndrews Again Pleads No\nAttorney\nHints U.S.\nCourt Move\nRotund lawyer Dean\nAdams Andrews Jr.\npleaded innocent for the\nsecond time today to\ncharges that he lied be-\nfore an Orleans Parish\nGrand Jury investigating\nan alleged conspiracy to\nassassinate President\nJohn F. Kennedy.\nImmediately after the for-\nmal arraignment in Criminal\nDistrict Court, his attorney\nhinted that Andrews may go\ninto federal courts to charge\nOrleans authorities with violat-\ning his civil rights.\nA hip-talking, one-time as-\nsistant district attorney in Jef-\nferson Parish, Andrews was\nreindicted by the grand jury\nlast week in an 11-foot long\ndocument which quoted 2,000\nwords of testimony.\nTODAY HIS LAWYER, Sam\nMonk Zelden, called the sec-\nand indictment \"just as bad\nas the other one\" which Zel-\nden sought to strike down in\na hearing preempted when the\nsecond charge came down.\nThe indictment filed Thurs-\nday centered on questioning of\nAndrews about a telephone\ncall from the mysterious Clay\nBertrand, who asked Andrews\nto defend Lee Harvey Oswald.\nOswald was identified by the\nWarren Commission as Presi-\ndent Kennedy's lone assassin.\nAn assistant district after-\nney asked if Andrews could\nconnect Bertrand and 54-\nyear-old Clay L. Shaw, the\nonly man Dist. Atty. Jim\nGarrison has charged with\ncomplicity in Kennedy's mur-\nder.\nAndrews said he could not\nidentify Bertrand as Shaw,\nIncome\nand added that Shaw ap-\npeared to be taller than the\nman he knew as Bertrand.\nZELDEN SAID, \"WE'RE\njust thinking about\" going\n(Turn to Page 10, Column 1)\nDanha\nTEN\nTUESDAY\nAndrews Again\nPleads Not Guilty\nContinued from Page 1\nToday was also the day that\ninto federal court. But he\nSandra Moffett, a one-time\nsaid possible action there\ngirl friend of Perry Raymond\nmight concern \"violation of\ncivil rights and other matters\nRusso, star witness in the\npertaining thereto.\"\nprobe, was supposed to re-\nAs usual, Andrews wore his\nturn to New Orleans.\ndark glasses this morning\nMISS MOFFETT, now Mrs.\nwhen Judge Frank Shea\nLille Mae McMaines, was or-\nmounted the bench of Crim-\ndered last Monday to come\ninal- District Court 27 min-\nto New Orleans from her\nutes ahead of schedule.\nhome in Omaha, Neb., to tes-\nZelden waived the reading\ntify before the Grand Jury.\nof the indictment, pleaded\nHowever, it seemed unlike-\nAndrews innocent and asked\nly that she would arrive to-\nfor 10 days in which to file\nday, since she has never been\nspecial pleadings. He was\nserved with the court order.\ngiven until May 1.\nOmaha authorities say that\nOutside the courtroom, Zel-\nshe has left the state and can-\nden answered reporters'\nnot be served.\nquestions and quipped, \"As\nShe was arrested two weeks\nstrange as it may seem, Mr.\nago in Omaha and freed on\nAndrews has nothing to say\na $1,000 bond after Garrison's\ntoday.\"\noffice swore out a material\nAndrews, whose loquacity\nwitness warrant against her.\nusually is matched only by\nShe was due to appear at a\nin penchant for jet-age\nhearing in her behalf next\nI\nLong, condicied.\nweek in Omaha.\nZelden said there were\nUNDER THE bond. Mrs.\nI\nmany inconsistencies in the\nMcMaines was allowed to\nindictment against Andrews,\ntravel outside the state and\nand added that the accusa\ndid not have to reappear un-\ntion \"doesn't say in what re-\ntil the hearing.\nspect the accused is supposed\nAndrews was expected to\nto have perjured himself.\"\nplead not guilty to the charge\nas he did to the earlier Indict-\nIN OTHER action in Garri-\nment.\nson's probe today, legal pa-\nIn all probability, the ar-\npers were In the malis on\nraignment will be a routine\ntheir way to Ohio, seeking\nprocedure, in which Andrews\nthe return of Gordon Novel to\nmay or may not waive the\nLouisiana.\nreading of the verbose indict-\nNovel, sought as a witness\nment, plead not guilty and\nin the probe, is free on bond\nask for time to file pleadings\nin Columbus. Acting Gov. C.\nin the case,\nC. \"Taddy\" Aycock signed\nthe extradition papers for his\n[\nreturn late yesterday.\nThe extradition papers are\nbased not on a fugitive ma-\nterial witness charge, which\nIS not a basis for extradition\nin Ohio, but on a charge of\nconspiracy to burglarize a\nCi\nHouma munitions bunker in\n1961.\nMO\nday\narme\nAndrews Seeks\nTo\nLift Quiz Lid\nDean Andrews Jr.\nfiled three motions to-\nNEW ORLEANS\nday in Criminal District\nCourt aimed at prying\nopen the lid of secrecy\nclamped on the Orleans\nSTATES - ITEM\nParish grand jury's in-\nvestigation into the as-\nsassination of President\nJohn F. Kennedy.\nFINAL\nSPORTS\nAndrews, indicted by the\nMARKETS\njury for perjury, flied a mo-\ntion for oyer, a motion to in-\nVOL. 90-NO. 276\nMONDAY, MAY 1, 1967\nPRICE 10c\nspect his testimony before the\njury, and a motion for an or-\nder permitting the disclosure\nof grand jury testimony.\nEach of the motions is a dif-\nferent legal maneuver de-\nsigned to make public An-\ndrews' complete testimony be-\nhe\nfore the jury on March 16.\ned\nto\nA SUSPENDED Jefferson\nParish assistant district at-\nICC-\ntorney, Andrews was indicted\nnes\ntwo weeks ago in an unprec-\n25-\nedented II-foot-long charge\nafter an earlier indictment\n1)\nwas dismissed by the district\nattorney's office.\nIn his motions today, An-\ndrews argued that he is un-\nable \"to properly prepare his\ndefenses or to assist his coun-\nsel.\"\nAndrews told the Warren\nCommission in its Investiga-\ntion of the Kennedy death that\nhe received a telephone call\nfrom a \"Clay Bertrand\" short-\nly after the assassination ask-\ning him to defend Lee Harvey\n(Turn to Page 17, Column 2)\nAndrews Seeking\nTo Lift Probe Lid\nContinued from Front Page\nOswald, whom the commis-\nsaid that in law the only way\nsion says killed the President.\nat the present time for Phe-\nlan to testify under oath\nGARRISON HAS identified\n\"would be a joint appearance\nBertrand and Clay L. Shaw,\nby Mr. Phelan and myself\nretired managing director of\nbefore the Orleans Parish\nInternational Trade Mart, as\nGrand Jury.\"\nthe same man.\nSCIAMBRA SAID Phelan\nShaw has been accused by\nhas stated over radio and\nGarrison of conspiring with\nOswald and the late David\ntelevision broadcasts his will-\nW. Ferrie to kill Kennedy.\nIngness to testify in New Or-\nShaw has denied the charge\nleans and added that \"if Mr.\nand also that he used the\nPhelan is sincere in his re-\nquest, at this time I would\nname of Clay Bertrand as\nlike to extend an Invitation\nan alias.\nto him to appear with me\nThe indictment against An-\nvoluntarily before the grand\ndrews charges he did not tell\njury where we can both tell\nthe truth when questioned\nour stories under oath and\nabout whether Clay Bertrand\nsubject to cross-examination\nwas actually Clay Shaw.\nand the laws of perjury of\nthe state of Louisiana,\nIN ANOTHER development\n\"This would give an impar-\ntoday, the district attorney's\ntial body of 12 men an oppor-\noffice filed exceptions to a\ntunity to decide once and for\npetition by Shaw's attorneys\nall what is fact and what is\nto make magazine writer\nfiction,\" he said.\nJames Phelan a material wit-\nSciambra said that the dis-\nness in the case against\nShaw.\ntrict attorney's office will pay\nPhelan is author of an ar-\nfor Phelan's transportation\nticle which appeared in the\nand lodging in New Orleans\nSaturday Evening Post that\nand added that \"I stand by\nsuggested that Perry Russo,\nevery statement I have ever\nthe man who testified he\nmade concerning Mr. Phelan\nheard Shaw, Ferrié and Os-\nand his article.\"\nwald plot to kill Kennedy,\nmay have been under a post-\nhypnotic suggestion when he\nwas questioned.\nAssistant Dist. Attys. James\nAlcock, Andrew Sciambra\nand Richard Burnes filed a\nwritten answer to the de-\nfense's petition before Judge\nFrank Shea, Judge Shea or-\ndered a 10:30 a. m. hearing\nWednesday on the matter.\nTHE STATE argued that\nthere is no provision under\nLouisiana law to take testi-\nmony of a witness in advance\nof a trial except in a pre-\nliminary hearing, which has\nalready been held, or in the\ncase of a witness who is im-\nprisoned.\nThe assistant district attor-\nney contended that the only\nway testimony can be taken\nin advance of the trial is be-\nfore the grand jury.\nThey noted that Phelan has\nsaid he is willing to testify\nand the \"state is equally in-\n1\nterested in obtaining his\n1\nsworn statement.\"\n(\nLATER THIS morning.\nii\nSciambra issued a statement\nrt\nasking Phelan to testify with\nSi\nhim.\nIf\nIn his article, Phelan said\nS\nthat the first time Russo\nC\ntalked with Sciambra, no\nC\nmention was made of the al-\nt\nleged meeting which Russo\nattended in which be over-\nheard the plot.\nSciambra has called the\narticle untrue.\nSciambra\n9/20/76\nIN PARTICULAR, RE:\nRe: 1976 Affidant of Kerry Therely :\nBANSTER, FERRIE, MEXICO\nCITY of ROSSELLI)\nThornley admits:\n1\narrives in New Onleans in \"early 1961\" Bay of Pige\noccurred in April, 1961. N.O. was used as k logistical base +\ntraining area for anti- Castro activities by U.S. intelligence in BOLTON\nthe early 1960's. Examples: sttempted purchase of Ford pick mp FORD\nBOLTON\ntruck in Oswald's name while he was still in Russia; training of 1961\nanti- Cartro guerrilles northy Labe Pontelertain, etc.). Thornley\ndeparts from New Onleave (fn area Arlington, Virginia, to\nawait his testimony in Washington before the Warran Communion\nin December, 1963)\nN\nIn new Onleana, in 1961, Thornly \"accidentally\" meets\nGuy Banuter, discusses with him the book he 's writing about\nLee Oxwald.\nj\nRam In 1962, Thornley \"accidentally meets David\nFerrie (\"d'm nearly dure that no significant conversation\ntransfaired \")\n4\nIn 5 eptember of\n1963\nThornley visits Matrin City.\n(\"Fn\nmany years had wanted to visit Mexico\nCity \")\n5\nAlso in themly\nSeptember, 1963\nThornly is in\nnew Orleans during same period Oswald was (Lates, he\nsays \"d began to realize that others might have good reason for\nsuspecting me of being party an assashin the counpirary.\"\n6\nFrom 1964 intel June of 966, Thornley worked at\nIsen Towers apartments, Lua Angeles, where he got to know John\nRosselli, who happened to live there. (They have conversation\nspeculating about the assossmention).\nN.O. S-I\nClay Berfrand\nNever Existed,\nSays Andrews\nBy ROSEMARY JAMES\nDean Adams Andrews Jr., the\nNew Orleans attorney charged\nwith perjury in Dist. Atty. Jim\nGarrison's Kennedy assassina-\ntion probe, said today that the\nmysterious Clay Bertrand\n\"never existed\".\nFarrison has charged that re-\ntired businessman Clay L.\nShaw, using the name Bertrand\nas an alias participated in a\nconspiracy to murder the Presi-\ndent.\nThe name Clay Bertrand was\nfirst mentioned by Andrews,\nwho told the Warren Commis-\nsion that a man by that name\ncalled him to defend Lee Harvey\nOswald, accused assassin of\nPresident Kennedy, after the\nmurder in Dallas Nov. 22, 1963.\nTODAY, ANDREWS, speaking\nat the Press Club of New Or-\nleans, said there is only one im-\nportant point about Bertrand\nand that point is:\n\"Clay Shaw ain't Clay Ber-\ntrand. Amen.\"\nAndrews was indicted for\nperjury after he refused to\nidentify Shaw as Bertrand for\nthe Orleans Parish Grand Jury.\nThe hip-talking lawyer, wear-\ning his ever present dark\nglasses and a fresh sun tan,\nsaid: \"Years ago I was intro-\nduced to a fellow at a gay wed-\nding reception. The boy never\nused the name Clay Bertrand.\nI was just introduced to him\nas Clay Bertrand.\"\nAndrews said that he had\n\"ducked the Warren Commis-\nsion\" as long as he could. The\nheavy-set lawyer, speaking in\nthe jazzman's jargon, said he\ntold commission investigators:\n\"Look, man, I don't want to\ntalk. I'm going to tell you a\nbunch of lies. 'Will you tell\nthem under oath?' they say, and\nI say, 'Be my guest.'\"\nANDREWS outlined his cir-\ncumstances as a man indicted\nin an investigation which has\ndrawn national attention.\nHe said that you have to get\nused to attention like, \"the old\nlady in the elevator who sticks\nyou in the back and says' Why\ndon't you tell Big Jim the\ntruth?'\nAndrews said that anyone\nwho gets charged with a crime\nhas several courses of action.\n\"In some instances you hustle a\nfix\nMe, though, I'm a\nharpooned whale dragged P on\nthe beach, I got nowhere to\ngo.\"\nHE SAID THAT trying \"to\nduck the press\" is a waste of\ntime and you can \"no com-\nment\nno comment\nno comment\" or you can \"open\nup your mouth and put your\nfoot in it,\" ne said.\nMEMORANDUM\nApril 4, 1967\nTO:\nJIM GARRISON\nDISTRICT ATTORNEY\nFROM:\nWILLIAM GURVICH\nSPECIAL AIDE\nSUBJECT:\nDEAN ANDREWS INTERVIEW 3/2/67\nOn 5:56 P.M., 2 March 1967, DEAN ANDREWS,\naccompanied by his attorney Sam Zelden, was interviewed in the\nOffice of the District Attorney, Parish of Orleans, by Assistant\nDistrict Attorneys James Alcock, Richard Burnes, Adnrew Sciambra\nand Special Aide William Gurvich. \"This interview was tape-\nrecorded with the knowledge and consent of Mr. ANDREWS. While\nawaiting the transcription of that tape, this memorandum is\nrespectfully submitted.\nANDREWS stated he is an Assistant District Attorney\nin the Twenty-Fourth Judicial District of Louisiana.\nHe further stated he had appeared before the\nWarren Commission in their investigation of the assassination of\nPresident Kennedy and furnished testimony relative to his\nknowledge of the accused assassin, LEE HARVEY OSWALD.\nANDREWS said OSWALD came to his office in May or\nJune 1963 for legal assistance. From memory, ANDREWS said he\nprobably saw OSWALD three or four times. ANDREWS' office was in\n627 Maison Blanche Building, New Orleans, when OSWALD came with\nthree young men who were obvious homosexuals. The latter were\nin some minor trouble with the local police but it was not\nnecessary for him to actually represent them. ANDREWS stated he\nwas well known in the French Quarter and had represented homo-\nsexuals on several occasions.\nWhen questioned about his testimony on 21 July 1964\nbefore the Warren Commission, wherein he said there were one or\ntwo homosexuals, ANDREWS studied the Commission Report for five\nminutes (6:03-6:08 P.M) and the interview resumed.\nANDREWS said his figures to us were accurate and\nadded that one of these \"gay kids\" (homosexuals) was a Mexican.\nHe said the Mexican was quiet and did not talk. ANDREWS recalls\nhaving made a file on this but did not retain it.\nAccording to ANDREWS, OSWALD identified himself\nand sat on ANDREWS' left during their first meeting. He doesn't\nremember if the others were identified.\n-1-\nThe last time ANDREWS saw OSWALD was in front of\nthe Maison Blanche Building when OSWALD was distributing pro-\nCastro leaflets. ANDREWS approached OSWALD to attempt to collect\na delinquent fee but OSWALD had no money to pay him. ANDREWS\nrecalls a Mexican being with OSWALD at this time. This Mexican\nwas about 5'10\", had a short, flattop haircut that tapered in\nback, and had an athletic-type build. ANDREWS said a Mexican\nwas always with OSWALD. Although the Mexican was not identified\nor introduced and never spoke, ANDREWS said he could recognize\nhim.\nSome photographs were shown to ANDREWS for possible\nrecognition or identification but to no avail. ANDREWS said he\ncould not see the necks of the subjects in the photographs which\nwould be necessary as the Mexican with OSWALD had an unusually\nstrong-looking neck.\nANDREWS added that he also knew DAVID FERRIE and\nhad recently been contacted by him to settle a brake tag viola-\ntion.\nReferring back to OSWALD, ANDREWS stated it was\nabout 5:30 P.M. when OSWALD and the three others came to see him.\nThere were no introductions other than by OSWALD. When asked\nwhy they came to him ANDREWS said someone had recommended him.\nANDREWS was asked if he recalled the Warren\nCommission asking him about CLAY BERTRAND and ANDREWS replied,\n\"Where is that?\" A copy of the Report was shown to him and the\ninterview resumed after a two-minute pause at 6:21 P.M.\nStating he was now ready to discuss CLAY BERTRAND,\nhe referred to the Rendevous Bar which he described as a\n\"swinging place\" and was located in the French Quarter where the\nRed Garter is now. ANDREWS explained he lived in the Pontalba\nApartments when in school and met many homosexuals.\nANDREWS said the young men with OSWALD used his\nphone to call someone and when contact was made, handed the\nphone to him. As ANDREWS listened, a voice said, \"Whatever they\nowe, I'll pay. ANDREWS said he had heard this voice and name\nbefore under similar circumstances. When asked if he knew who\nCLAY BERTRAND was ANDREWS said he didn't know for sure. Asked\nif he ever had any financial dealings with CLAY BERTRAND, ANDREWS\nreplied he had not because the \"kids\" always came back and paid.\nHe said BERTRAND never owed him any money.\nAsked if he had ever seen or met BERTRAND, ANDREWS\nsaid he had twice and then corrected it to once. ANDREWS said\nhe saw him in a bar on Dauphine Street near Esplanade Avenue. He\nsaid BERTRAND got up and left the bar when ANDREWS came in.\nANDREWS was asked what made him think that man was CLAY BERTRAND\nand he said he could not recall.\nAt 6:26 P.M. ANDREWS was shown the Report where he\nis questioned about BERTRAND owing him money. ANDREWS replied\nthat he was vague then because he was being pushed in the same\nmanner as we were pushing in our interview.\n-2-\nHe said he recognized CLAY BERTRAND's voice on the\nphone as he had heard it before and the voice was deep, intelli-\ngent and educated. ANDREWS said BERTRAND had \"command of the\nKing's English\" and didn't sound homosexual or. effeminate.\nWhen asked to describe the person he saw on\nDauphine Street and concluded it was BERTRAND, ANDREWS asked for\na short break to refresh his memory at 6:29 P.M.\nResuming, ANDREWS said he \"didn't carry a tape\nmeasure\" with him. Finally he said this man had grey hair and\nruddy complexion. ANDREWS added that he though BERTRAND was\nbi-sexual. At this point he recalled the bar was Cosmos's.\nANDREWS said he had actually seen this man twice. The first time\nwas at a \"gay bar\" (homosexual hangout) -\"maybe\" Dixie's or\n\"maybe on Chartres\". ANDREWS said he only \"assumed\" it was CLAY\nBERTRAND on this first meeting.\nANDREWS said he was confined to Hotel Dieu Hospital\nin New Orleans on the day of the assassination. While there he\nreceived a phone call from CLAY BERTRAND who asked him to go to\nDallas, Texas and defend LEE HARVEY OSWALD who had been arrested\nand accused of murder.\nAt this point ANDREWS recalled that on OSWALD's\nvisit to his office CLAY BERTRAND told ANDREWS on the phone that\nhe would pay the expenses. ANDREWS said the exact words were,\n\"I'll personally handle fee.\"\nANDREWS was asked if he knew CLAY SHAW and he said\nhe had seen pictures of him but they had never met. Asked if\nBERTRAND and SHAW were similar in physical description, ANDREWS\nsaid he \"wouldn't know\". He said he had K no file on BERTRAND.\nANDREWS then said we could call Regis ennedy of the F.B.I. and\nJohn Rice adding that he \"could care less\".\nHe said all the homosexual young men he represented\nknew BERTRAND's number and would call him from ANDREWS' office.\nANDREWS added that he \"handled\" so many homosexuals because his\n\"reputation preceded him\". ANDREWS said he probably met fifteen\nor twenty homosexuals who knew CLAY BERTRAND. He cannot remember\nany of their names.\nDuring this interview, several photographs of\nvarious persons, including CLAY SHAW, were shown to ANDREWS.\nSeveral names were also mentioned for recognition. This was to\nno avail.\nThe interview concluded at 7:23 P.M, 2 March 1967.\nWILLIAM GURVICH\nWG/leb\n-3-\nDEAN ADAM ANDREWS, JR.\nAll references unless otherwise noted are to Vol. XI, the testimony of\nAndrews taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal\nand Conti Sts., New Orleans. Andrews was questioned by Wesley J. Liebeler,\nAssistant Counsel for the Warren Commission.\nQ. Did you have occasion to meet LEE HARVEY OSWALD?\nA. Yes, during the Summer of 1963. (p. 326)\nQ. Under what circumstances?\nA. He came to my office in connection with a less than honorable discharge.\n(p. 326)\nQ. Was he alone?\nA. No, he was accompanied by young homosexuals who were Mexicans or Cubans.\n(p. 326)\nQ. Did OSWALD return to your office?\nA. Yes, at least three times, possibly five times, including the initial\nvisit. (p. 328)\nQ. Was he accompanied by anyone when he visited you subsequent to the first\nvisit?\nA.\nYes, I think he came back with one of the Latin youths who was with him\non the first visit. (p. 326)\nQ.\nDid you see him on any occasion outside of your office?\nA. Yes, when he was in front of the Maison Blanche At building giving out\npro-Castro leaflets. (p. 328)\nQ.\nDid you talk with him on that occasion?\nA.\nYes, I reminded him that he owed me $25. (p. 328)\nDEAN ADAMS ANDREWS, JR.\nQ. Did you have any other discussion with him regarding finances?\nA. Yes, he told me he was being paid $25 a day for handing out the leaflets.\n(p. 328)\nQ. Do you have any doubt in your mind that it was LEE HARVEY OSWALD who\nwas in your office?\nA. I don't believe SO. This is him (making reference to OSWALD on Garner\nExh. No. 1). (p. 329)\nQ. Did you testify before the Warren Commission on XXXXX/XX//XXXX July 21,19642\nA. Yes. (p. 325)\nQ. Did you testify before the Warren Commission, \"This boy (referring to\nLEE HARVEY OSWALD) could have connived the deal, but I think he is a\npatsy. Somebody else pulled the trigger. \"?\nA. Yes. (p.330)\nQ. Did you testify before the Warren Commission that you were going to find\nCLAY BERTRAND?\nA. Yes. (p. 330)\nQ. Did you testify before the Warren Commission that your office was\nburglarized and that you were unable to find any written record of your\ndealings with LEE HARVEY OSWALD?\nA. Yes. (p. 331)\nQ. Did you testify before the Commission that you received a phone call from\nCLAY BERTRAND and did he ask you if you would go to Dallas to defend\nLEE HARVEY OSWALD?\nA. Yes. (p. 331)\nQ. Did you testify before the Warren Commission that you recognized the\nvoice as being the voice of CLAY BERTRAND?\nA. Yes, (p. 331)\nQ. Did you testify that CLAY BERTRAND is \"the one who calls on behalf of\ngay kids normally either to obtain bonds or parole for them\" and that\nyou \"would assume that he (CLAY BERTRAND) was the one\nthat originally sent OSWALD and the gay kids, these Mexicanos to the\noffice\"?\nA. Yes. (p. 331)\nQ. When did yaureceive the telephone call from CLAY BERTRAND asking you\nto defend LEE HARVEY OSWALD?\nA. It was Friday or Saturday. (p. 332) Probably I received the phone\ncall on Saturday, November 23, 1963, before 4:00 P.M. (pp. 332, 333)\nQ. Did you testify on July 21, 1964, that about six weeks prior to that\ndate you saw CLAY BERTRAND and that he ran away?\nA. Yes. (p. 334)\nQ. Did you speak with FBI Agent Regis Kennedy on December 5, 1963?\nA. Yes, (p. 335)\nQ. On that occasion did you describe CLAY BERTRAND as being approximately\n6'1\" or 6'2\"?\nA. Yes. (p. 335)\nQ. Did you say that he was well dressed?\nA. Yes, (p. 335)\nQ. Yet when you testified before the Warren Commission did you state that\nCLAY BERTRAND was only 5'8\" tall?\nA. Yes. (p. 334)\nDEAN ADAM ANDREWS, JR.\nQ. By giving a total dissimilar description to the Warren Commission in\nJuly of 1964 from the one you had given to the FBI in December of 1963\nwere you trying to mislead the Commission and thus protect the man you\nknew as CLAY PERTRAND?\nA.\nQ. In fact, did you tell anyone that you were sorry you had talked to the\nWarren Commission about CLAY BERTRAND and that subsequent to your\ntestimony before the Warren Commissionyou had received a telephone call\nfrom Washington, D.C., and that you were told that\"a hole would be put\"\nin your head if you ever discussed the matter again?\nA.\nQ.\nDid you describe CLAY BERTRAND to the Warren Commission as being bi-sexual?\nA. Yes. (p. 335)\nQ.\nDid you tell the Warren Commission that CLAY BERTRAND referred cases\nto you in the past?\nA. Yes, (P. 335)\nQ. Did the FBI Agents pressure you to the point where you reacted to the\npressure by stating, \"Write what you want, that I am nuts, I don't care\"?\nA. Yes. \"I have been playing cops and robbers with them. You can tell when\nthe steam is on. They are on you like the plague. They never leave.\nThey are like cancer, eternal.\" (p. 334)\nQ.\nDid you tell the Warren Commission that it was your belief that CLAY\nBERTRAND ran away from you when you saw him six weeks before your\ntestimony because the FBI was seeking him or because he owed you money\nas a result of your representation of persons referred to you by him?\nA. Yes. (p. 337)\nDEAN ADAM ANDREWS, JR.\nQ. Is it now your position that CLAY BERTAND was in fact a figment of your\nimagination as the FBI reported?\nwhen\n&. Is it not true that ***** you received the telephone call from CLAY\nBERTRAND you were confined to a New Orleans Hospital, HOTEL DIEU, and\nunable to go to Dallas to represent OSWALD?\nA. Yes.\nQ. Is it not true that after you received the telephone call from CLAY\nBERTRAND since you were unable to go to Dallas because you had\npneumonia you called another New Orleans lawyer, MONK ZELDON and asked\nhim if he would \"be interested in a retainer and go over to Dallas and\nsee about that boy (LEE HARVEY OSWALD) ?\nA.\nYes. (p. 337)\nQ.\nDid you testify that you were looking for CLAY BERTRAND, even during\nJuly of 1964 because, \"I want to find out why he called me on behalf\nof this boy after the President was assassinated\"?\nA.\nYes. (p. 337)\nQ.\nDid you testify before the Commission that BERTRAND owed you money in 1964\nfoolegal work that you had done over a period of years?\nA.\nYes. (p. 337)\nN.O MAY 15,1967\nAndrews Can't Get Jury\nclub owner who shot him to\ndeath,\nGARRISON SAID Friday he\nTranscript Under Law--DA\nplans, at some future date, to\ndisclose other significant coded\nentries in Oswald's notebook,\nDist. Atty. Jim Garrison's of-\nentire testimony given to the\nprinted in its entirety in the\nfice said today efforts by Dean\njury in March.\nthat vital portions of the tes-\nWarren Report.\nA. Andrews Jr. to obtain a\nThe grand jury charged An-\ntimony are missing from the in-\nThe code, Garrison explained.\ntranscript of Andrews' grand\ndrews with perjury and he was\ndictment and that it is defec-\ninvolves transposition of digits\njury testimony in the Kennedy\nindicted last month in an 11-\ntive.\naccording to a definite pattern.\nassessination investigation can-\nfont-long indictment prepared\nNeither Andrews, a hip-talk-\nthen addition or subtraction of\nnot be successful under Louisi-\nby Carrison's office. which\ning lawyer, Wind wears a per-\nnumbers familiar to Oswald\nquoted extensively from An-\npetual mask of sunglasses, nor\nOn the broadcast from Wash-\nana law.\ndrews' testimony.\nZelden was in court as Asst.\nington yesterday, Long com-\nAndrews, suspended assistant\nDist. Atty. James Alcock hand-\nmented, \"I think you would say\nJefferson Parish district attor-\nANDREWS AND his attorney,\ned the state's answers to Judge\nit was somewhat strange that\nney, sought a transcript of his Sam Monk Zelden, complained\nFrank Shea.\nthose two men whom Garrison\nsays were in conspiracy both\nANDREWS APPEARED in\nhad that number listed In their\nSit\nthe courtronm earlier and spoke\npapers.\"\n20\nwith Judge Shea for approxi-\nSalvador Panzeca, one of\nmately 15 minutes.\nShaw's attorneys, said today\nHe left when be was told his\nthat the figure PA 19106 in Lee\nmotions would not be argued\nHarvey Oswald's address book\ntoday. Judge Shea tentatively\nrepresented a telephone num-\nset the hearing at 10:30 a. m.\nber in Russia.\nnext Monday,\nHe said Shaw's attorneys will\nHe sald Andrews had indi-\nprove this and will also bring\ncated be might file a supple-\nLee Odom into court either on\nmentary motion to quash the\nor before Shaw's trial date: He\nindictment later this week, in\nsald the numbers, although the\nwhich case the hearing would\nbe reset for May 22.\nother. same, had no relation to each\nThe district attorney's an-\nSo far, investigation in Dal-\nswers this morning were aimed\nlas has turned up no evidence\nat Andrews' motion to quash\nof a Lee Odom. whose name\nand three motions aimed at ob-\nwas listed in Shaw's address\ntaining the grand jury testi.\nbook with the notation PO\nmony.\n19106, Dallas, Tex\nIn the answers, the state said\nMeanwhile, Alvin Beauboeuf\nit had \"fully conformed to the\nwas scheduled to appear this\nrequirements\nof the Code\nafternoon at police headquar-\nof Criminal Procedure, and that\nters to sign a statement re-\nnone of the constitutional rights\ngarding an alleged Garrison-\nof the defendant have been\noffice attempt to bribe him.\nviolated\nLONG EXPRESSED long-\nTHE DOCUMENT went on to\nstanding doubts that Oswald\nstate that \"the state is pro-\nhad carried out the assassina-\nhibited from revealing any\ntion alone and said he feels\nmore of the transcribed testi-\nthat although Garrison should\nmony which was given by the\nseek the cooperation of the Fed-\naccused to the grand jury than\neral Bureau of Investigation. in\nsuch testimony as is necessary\nhis probe, he is justified In con-\nto indict the accused for per-\nducting an independent inves-\njury.\ntigation\n\"All remaining transcribed\nThe murder of Kennedy. Long\ntestimony is protected by 3\ncontended, \"was not a crime\ncloak of secrecy\nagainst federal law. It was a\nMeanwhile, Sen. Russell B\ncrime against the law of Lou-\nLong said yesterday he feels\nisiana. It was a crime against\nGarrison has turned up \"signifi-\nthe law of Texas.\"\ncant evidence\" of a conspiracy\n\"Do you really think,\" one\nin the assassination of Presi-\nreporter asked Long, apparently\ndent John F. Kennedy.\nhalf-jokingly, \"that the New Or-\nIn answer to questions on\nleans district attorney is cap-\nCBS television's Face the Na.\nable of conducting a more thor-\ntion\" yesterday, Long said an\nough investigation than the\nimportant new development in\nFBI?\"\nthe case came Friday when\nThe senator replied. \"I'm\nGarrison reported that Jack\njust saying they wouldn't have\nRuby's unlisted telephone num-\nhandled it the way he has\nber, in coded form, had been\nhandled it\nFurthermore.\nfound In notebooks owned by\nlet's be fair about it. He felt\nClay L. Shaw and accused pres-\nit was his case and not theirs.\"\nidential assassin Lee Harvey\nOswald.\nANOTHER REPORTER\nasked whether. if Garrison dis-\nGARRISON SEIZED Shaw's\nproved the findings of the War-\nnotebook and other personal ef-\nren Commission. he might be\nfects in February, after he ar-\nseeking high political office,\nrested the 54-year-old former\nperhaps conflicting with the am-\nmanager of the International\nbitions of the senator.\nTrade Mart on a charge of con-\nLong laughed and replied.\nspiring to assassinate Kennedy.\n\"You mean he might want to\nSince that time Shaw has\nrun for my job? I think that\nbeen bound over for trial after\neverybody ought to do what his\na three-judge hearing, then in-\nduty requires. And if you do the\nS\ndicted for conspiracy by the\njob that the people elect you to\nOrleans Parish Grand Jury.\ndo, and you do what's right as\nLong said yesterday that in his\nyour conscience sees it, the elec-\nmind the alleged telephone num-\ntions tend to take care of them-\nber is definite evidence that a\nselves.\"\nconspiracy existed. The Warren\n\"Do you really think Ruby,\nCommission was able to estab-\nOswald and Shaw were involved\nlish no link between Oswald\nin a conspiracy?\" an interview-\nand Jack Ruby, the late Dallas\ner queried.\n\"I'M SURE THERE was a\nconspiracy.\" Long answered,\nadding that national interest in\nGarrison's investigation has\nbeen high for some time.\n053X\nONDX\nITTM NO. 2-937-67\nJEFFERSON PARISH SHERIFF'S OFFICE\nDATE OF ARRES 2/5/67\nARREST REPORT\nDISTRICT East\nTIME OF ARREST 10:20 FM\nLAST NAME\nFIRST\nMIDDLE\nADDRESS\nClark\nThomas\nLevis\n240 Orton Ave, Notion In.\nALTAS OR\nPLACE OF ARREST\nNICKNAME Tommy\n3500 Division St., Met. La.\nCHARGE\nARRESTED WITH\n14:107 secs. 5,7,88 Vagrancy\n1 4:69 Possession stolon property\nWarren Bourgious, W/K, 16\nBIRTHPLACE\nBIRTHDATE\nAGE\nCOLOR\nHGT.\nWGT.\nEYES\nHAIR\nCOMPLEX\nH.O.L.A.\n1/1/18\n10\nW/U\n6/9\n137\ngreen\nhrm\nfair\nOCCUPATION\nSCARS, MARKS, TATTOOS, ETC.\nSOCIAL SECURITY NO.\nLab.\nII/V\n39-74-3034\nWITNESS\nADDRESS\nDep. E. Gerner\n3236 Fouvate Not To,\nWITNESS\nADDRESS\nDeb. A. Crossen\n7919 St. Charles Ave, N.O.L.A.\nWITNESS 200s C. Wereittin\nADDRESS,\n541 \"vman Dr., Ne Is.\nWITNESS\nADDRESS\nFINGERPRINT CLASSIFICATION\nB of I No.\nDISPOSITION\n27111\nDETAILS OF ARREST\nAbove subject arrested after he was observed coming from the rear of\nStudio Arms #5, 3500 Division. Subject could not explain his presence\nthere-at, he stated that no is presently membloved and that it ima\nbeen aunrox. 3weeks to a month since his list employment. subject in\nknown by officers to be a hibutual loiter of the streets, Prior to\nthis arrest subject was arrested on the same date 2/5/67 at 3:50 AM\nfor same charge of Vagrancy under secs. 5 & 7 also with the same\nWhite Male juvenile After investigation at the East Bank Jail sub.\nadmitted to the fact that he had stolen a Continental Oil Co. Credit\ncard 36-284-3245 (non-euniring) beloncing to one David D. Martin Sr.\nfrom David Ferrie. W/M. 45 residing 3330 Louisiana Ave,, N.O.L.A.\n$250 Band by storleg on 2/6/67\nPosted by Hebert Bonel Co,\nWeared 2/5/67\nParoled\nBonded\nDESK SERGEANT\nL. Karna\nOUTK\nITEM NO. 2-783-67\nJEFFERSON PARISH SHERIFF'S OFFICE\nDATE OF ARREST 2/5/67\nDISTRICT East\nARREST REPORT\nTIME OF ARREST 4:00 AM\nLAST NAME\nFIRST\nMIDDLE\nADDRESS\nClark,\nThomas\nLouis\n240 Orion St., Metu, Lo\nLIAS OR\nPLACE OF ARREST\nNICKNAME\n3600 Vets. Hwy.\nCHARGE\nARRESTED WITH\n14:107 sec. 5 & 7 Vagrancy by no means of\nsupport, & Habutual loafer of streets.\nWarren E. Bourgeois, W/M,16\nBIRTHPLACE\nBIRTHDATE\nAGE\nCOLOR\nHGT.\nWGT.\nEYES\nHAIR\nCOMPLEX\nN.O.L.A.\n1/1/48\n19\nW/M\n5/9\n137\nhzl\nbrn\nfair\nOCCUPATION\nSCARS, MARKS, TATTOOS, ETC.\nSOCIAL SECURITY NO.\nLab.\nII/V\n439-74-3034\nWITNESS\nADDRESS\nDep. E. Garner\n3738 Bauvais\nWITNESS DCD. A. Crossen\nADDRESS\n7919 St. Charles Ave., N.O.L.A.\nWITNESS\nADDRESS\nWITNESS\nADDRESS\nFINGERPRINT CLASSIFICATION\nB of I No.\nDISPOSITION\n271111\nDETAILS OF ARREST\nAbove subject abserved byb arresting officers standing in the 3600\nblock of Vetrans Hi thway with above white male juvenile.\nUpon questioning subjects P.S to their presence it was learned\nthat nàither had a place to sleep or present employment. Subjects\nwere placed under arrest and transported to east district.\nNeither subject could account for their presence at time of\nquestioning.\nPauled by andrews to make bond 2/8/07\nreleased on 2/5/67 at 0435 A.M.\nParoled. to Dave Ferier\nParoled\nBonded\nDESK SERGEANT\nL. Kerna\n16\nSHERIEFS\nJEFFERSON\n22.11\nFPC NONE\n27111\nThomas Lewis Clark WM 29\nPob N.O.Ls.Res 240 Orion St Met La.\nOcc Labor\nComp Fair\nHair Brn\nDob 1-1-48\nHgt 5'9\"\nWt. 137\nEyes Hzl\nOks Med\nNose\nArr 2-5-67\nChg Vag.\nMEMORANDUM\nDecember 4, 1967\nTO:\nJIM GARRISON, District Attorney\nFROM:\nTOM BETHELL\nRE:\nAL CLARK\n*\nOn Sunday, December 3, 1967, I spoke to\nAL CLARK at Dixieland Hall, and asked him about his state-\nment to HAROLD WEISBERG that he had seen DEAN ANDREWS\ntalking to LEE HARVEY OSWALD.\nCLARK stated that when he saw OSWALD on\ntelevision after the assassination his immediate reaction\nwas that he had seen him before. After thinking about it\nhe came to the conclusion that he had seen OSWALD with\nANDREWS. ANDREWS, CLARK recollects, was in the habit of\nbringing his friends into the back door of Dixieland Hall,\nand he believes he saw ANDREWS and OSWALD sitting together\nin the patio right behind Dixieland Hall.\nCLARK said he did not mention this before\nbecause he thought it was common knowledge that ANDREWS\nknew OSWALD, and he didn't think it was important. ANDREWS\nhad always told him that he knew OSWALD, and therefore he\nattached no significance to it.\nCLARK did not see OSWALD on television in\nNew Orleans when he passed out leaflets in front of the\nTrade Mart.\nOn March 9, 1967, PRENTILES M. DAVIS, JR., serial\nnumber RA6925060 who is retired from the United States Army on\na TDRL and whose identification card shows that he was born\non October 15, 1920, and that he is 195 lbs, and stands 5'8\" tall\nand has brown hair and brown eyes, was interviewed.\nDAVIS was interviewed and he advised that he retired\ntemporarily from the United States Army in 1960. He stated that\nhe went to work for DEAN ANDREWS in 1961 when ANDREWS had his\noffice in the Maison Blanche Building.\nHe stated that his duties for DEAN ANDREWS was \"sort\nof bull dogging\". He stated that he investigated automobile\naccidents, criminal investigations, and traced down genealogy.\nHe stated that he did all types of investigating for ANDREWS.\nHe stated further that EVE SPRINGER who resides on Henry Clay\nAvenue was the secretary at the time that he became employed with\nANDREWS.\nDAVIS stated when questioned about the identities of\nhomosexuals that ANDREWS represented advised that \"he could say\nthat he did conduct an investigation on homosexuals for ANDREWS\nbut at this time he will say no.\"\nHe stated further that you would have to know ANDREWS\nand realize that DEAN ANDREWS ran a sort of DAVID RUNUN operation\nthat his clients were mostly persons who were either homosexuals,\npimps, prostitutes, or huslers from Bourbon Street.\nDAVIS stated that he saw LEE HARVEY OSWALD in DEAN\nANDREWS' office in the Maison Blanche Building. He stated that\nOSWALD was in company with four or five other individuals and\nthat two or three of these individuals were of Cuban or Mexican\nextraction. He stated that OSWALD was merely one of the group\nof characters that came in together. He stated that he did not\nknow any of the other persons. DAVIS stated that shortly there-\nafter DEAN ANDREWS asked him, DAVIS, about procedures in handling\na court marshall as he would know because he was retired as a\n1/Sgt. of the United States Army. He stated that ANDREWS wanted\nto correct a dishonorable discharge for OSWALD.\nDAVIS further stated that DEAN ANDREWS had so many\nhomosexuals, prostitutes, pimps coming into the office that it\nwas hard to keep track of them. He stated, \"you have to remember\nANDREWS was making his living off these people\".\nWhen questioned if he knew CLAY BERTRAND, DAVIS stated\nno. He stated that he had heard the name CLAY BERTRAND. When\nasked specifically if he knew CLAY BERTRAND as CLAY SHAW, he\nbecame nervous and stated that he did not. When asked if he had\nseen CLAY BERTRAND, he stated that he did not remember if he did\nor did not see him.\nHe stated that the name CLAY BERTRAND is very familiar\nto him. He stated that shortly before OSWALD's death while\nDEAN ANDREWS was at the Hotel Dieu, he, DAVIS, had entered DEAN\nANDREWS' room and ANDREWS had told him that he, DAVIS, may be\ngoing to Dallas. According to DAVIS, ANDREWS was on the telephone\ntalking to EVE SPRINGER, his secretary and instructed her to get\nsome files for him.\n-2-\nDAVIS stated that ANDREWS was under some kind of\nsedation at the time he was in the hospital. He also advised\nthat he has been giving this CLAY BERTRAND a lot of thought and\nthat he was wondering if DEAN could have meant something like\n\"ROBERT TRAHAN or BERT TRAHAN\". However, when asked specifically\nif he had ever heard the name of CLAY BERTRAND, he advised that\nthe name is very familiar to him.\nDAVIS stated that when ANDREWS got back from the\nhospital, he found that someone had broken into his office and\nhad gone through his files, however, nothing of value was taken.\nHe stated that he believes that ANDREWS opened a file on the\nOSWALD case, however, he does not know the file number of if the\nfile is available. He stated that the secretary only knew about\n20% of what DEAN was doing.\nHe stated that he does not believe that he would\nremember any of the homosexuals that went to ANDREWS' office.\n(At this time he was very evasive when it came to identifying\npersons that he worked cases on while he was associated with\nANDREWS). DAVIS stated, you have to remember I was doing work\nfor ANDREWS who represented these people. He was asked specifi-\ncally if he had ever accompanied ANDREWS to any place in the\nFrench Quarter. DAVIS stated that he had gone with ANDREWS to\nhave a bunch of contracts signed up by a number of musicians.\nHe stated that he believes that DEAN represented all of the\nmusicians on Bourbon Street and that he remembers going to a\nplace he believes is the Dixie Land Hall which he believes is\nlocated across from a new hotel in the Quarter. He stated that\nhe believes DEAN ANDREWS had incorporated the Dixie Land Hall\nand that he, ANDREWS, had some connection with this. He stated\nthat DEAN had very good connections in the Quarters and that he\nalso remembered going to a Go-Go girl's apartment in the Quarter\nwith ANDREWS.\nHe stated that you could always find ANDREWS at the\nDixie Land Hall because, \"he was on a jazz kick.'\nPRENTIES DAVIS stated that he saw OSWALD around the\ntime that OSWALD was having trouble at the Trade Mart. He stated\nthat he believes that this was the time that OSWALD was arrested\nand charged in Municipal Court. He stated that DEAN ANDREWS did\nnot represent OSWALD in Municipal Court, but ANDREWS did give\nOSWALD some type of legal advice regarding the charges pending\nagainst him, OSWALD. DAVIS stated that he does not know if\nBERTRAND came to the office or not concerning the OSWALD case in\nMunicipal Court. He again advised when specifically asked if\nBERTRAND and CLAY SHAW were one and the same, that he did not\nknow. He was evasive in his answers to this question.\nWhen questioned specifically about his visit to ANDREW\nin the hospital, DAVIS again stated that he went to the hospital\nright after DEAN ANDREWS had gotten the telephone call from\nBERTRAND regarding representing OSWALD in Dallas. DAVIS stated\nthat it was at this time that ANDREWS told him that he, DAVIS,\nmay have to go to DALLAS. He began telling DAVIS that they\nmight be representing OSWALD.\nDean andreas\nTo Jim Garrison, from Harold Weisberg\n3/16/68\nMom's Society Page and Oswald\nAlthough Dean Andrews, who had told me he had heard that as a\nyoung man Oswald has \"sold tricks for $20\" at the Old Society Page\n(which he incorrectly said had burned down), also said Mom would toss a.\nme out if I tried to speak to her, I found that she would talk-a\nlittle. Aside from the obvious problem, there was another-her conviction\nthat \"I don't know anything\", which makes it difficult to make her see\nthat a tiny fragment of truth bhat to her has no significance might\nbe important.\nI also spoke to Johnny Komundy (approx). He is a gay (An drews)\nbartender she says is completely honest and has been with her for\nseven years. He works the morning shift. He was, thus, at the old\nplace. Both remember Oswald from there.\nJohnny says the opposite of Andrews. He recalls that Oswald was\na hustler but recalls none of the virls. \"om lived in the same building,\n126 Exhhnage, and on the same floor as the Oswalds, with her son's\naparenment between them. According to Johnny, although he saw little\nof Oswald, he is confident itis not in the Andrews-cast role. Mom worked\nthe night shiftlinthose days, 7 p.m. to 7 a.m. and says she never\nsaw Oswald there then.\nMom had a delicate brain operation a year agon, for the removal of\na tumor. It seems to have denied her recollection of the preceeding\nyear or year and a half. She here expressed her trust in Johnny by\nsaying that when her son asked if he should check the register, she told\nhim no.\n(Mon and Johnny\nI explained to them both my apprehensions about the two most -\nlikely next scapegoats, as I have to you. Here we went into what\nAndrews did to Gene Davis (she was outgaged and hotly denied it\ncould be so) andzi We were also talking about\nthe fact of the assassination and of the danger from the fake inquest\nto The country. Whatever one of these things or whatever combination\ncaused it, I do not know, but this toihgh TOUGH old (62) gal wept.\nI gather she is either ready to believe or convinced that Shaw\nis Bertrand. She did not identify him as a customer and said he\ntravelled on a different level. She laughingly said her clientele\nconsiders Shaw and his kind as \"drapery salesladies\". She identified\nonly two known Shaw hangouts in her suggestions for further checking:\nthe Galley House (whose knowledgeable ownwe, Mary Collins, is now\ndead) and La Marina. She knew nothing about the incidentivan Cottman\ntoldme he had seen repeated often: Shaw glancing into LaFitte's and\nthen hurrying off.\nI got to the Society Page in time to see Mom order a very\ndrunk very gay man out after he lost his alance from an early-morn-\ning druhk. It was then not yet 11 a.m. She can be rough. With him\nwere a pair of similars gays. One, however, particularly drew my\nattention because he bears so close a facial resemblance to Dago\nGarner full-face only. He is much heavier, a very broad man whose\nback read hair-ends curl upwarde like a drake's. He was soft-spoken and\npolite, but looked very tough. I was particularly interested in this\n-3-\nDAVIS stated that it was at this time also that\nANDREWS called SAM MONZELLAN and EVE SPRINGER and it was at this\ntime that he, ANDREWS, instructed EVE SPRINGER to get some files\nfrom his office.\nDAVIS appeared to be greatly nervous and very evasive\nin his answers regarding any files that ANDREWS might have\nregarding homosexuals and/or HARVEY OSWALD.\nDAVIS also stated that one or two of the fags with\nOSWALD were Cubans. He stated that there were five or six fags\nwith OSWALD were Cubans. He stated that he could not find a\nrecord of OSWALD's visits to DEAN ANDREWS' office.\nWhen questioned specifically about the name of the girl\nthat they visited, he was evasive and he stated that he did not\nremember, however, he did remember going to her apartment which\nwas located around the corner from Bourbon Street on the downtown\ncorner. DAVIS stated that he was present at the time ANDREWS\ncalled EVE SPRINGER asked her about a file, however, DAVIS was\nevasive in answering questions regarding the file and stated\nthat he did not remember.\nDAVIS also advised that he does appear in the Warren\nCommission report. He states that he appears in the Warren\nCommission report under the name of PRESTON DAVIS.\nDAVIS identified EVE SPRINGER as \"an old maid who\nlives on Henry Clay Avenue.\" He stated that she could possibly\nbe of assistance. He stated that the break into ANDREWS' office\nwas discovered evidently by EVE SPRINGER and that it occurred on\na Saturday.\nHe advised also that they made no police report\nregarding this break in.\nLEADS;\nAscertain if ANDREWS received any telephone calls to the\nHotel Dieu switchboard.\nAscertain from DAVIS if possible the identity of homo-\nsexuals (DAVIS should know the identities of these\npersons as he is a trained investigator).\nDAVIS was interviewed and became very scared by Sgt. Tom\nDuffy and Capt. Cliency Navarre. As DAVIS was leaving the office,\nhe was advised by the writer that if he could possibly furnish\nthe names and identities of these various individuals, it would\nbe of great assistance and that the writer would put him to work\nfor a couple of days trying to run down the identities of these.\nvarious homosexuals.\nDAVIS stated that he would call the writer on\nMarch 10, 1967.\nSociety Page-2\nbecause sveral people toldme they recognized the Garner picture but\nwere uncertain why. One, Ophelia, referred to the eyes, and on this\nman, too, there was a similar look in the eyes.\nJohnny seemsto be in his 30s. He is a well-built, neat man\nabout 5'9\" with a pronounced pugnose in profile.\nI repeated the question about Oswald selling trick and he\ngave the aameanswer, adding, \"He didn't come around too much in\nthe day time\". This is an inference that he knew Oswald was there\nat night, which \"om disputes. Johnny also said he saw Oswald often\nin White's pool hall."
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