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May 29, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger, Luxembourg Prime Minister Thorn
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May 29, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger, Luxembourg Prime Minister Thorn
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Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)
Ford Administration Memoranda of Conversations
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Europe
Greece
Portugal
Spain
Luxembourg
Germany (West)
United Nations
European Economic Community. (1958 - 1967)
North Atlantic Treaty Organization. (4/4/1949 - )
Communism
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1975-05-29
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1975
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1975-05-29
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1975
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File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
SECRET/NODIS
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
Time: May 29, 1975
8:30-9:25 a.m.
Place: Ambassador Firestone's
Residence, Brussels,
Belgium
SUBJECT: Breakfast Meeting
PARTICIPANTS: Luxembourg:
Prime Minister Thorn
Pierre Wurth
Paul Helminger
U.S.:
The President
Secretary of State Kissinger
Assistant Secretary for European Affairs Hartman
DISTRIBUTION:
Secretary:
Gaston is a great European and a great Prime
Minister.
President:
I am very delighted to see you here today.
Thorn:
It is going to be a long day. What did you
think of our meetings yesterday in Paris?
FORD & LIBRARY OERALD
SECRET
XGDS
DECLASSIFIED
B.O. 12958, Sec. 3.5
State Dept. Guidelines State Diview 3/9/04
By
# NARA, Date 5/17/04
SECRET - XGDS (3)
CLASSIFIED BY: HENRY A. KISSINGER
SECRET/NODIS
2
Secretary:
I thought the atmosphere at the OECD
meeting was very good.
Thorn:
People seem convinced that the IEA has
made good progress.
Secretary:
Yes, it was very positive.
Thorn:
After Viet Nam there seems to be a reaction
in Europe that people say that we must now
stick together.
Secretary:
Mr. President, you see Gaston is about to
run the whole world. He has a chance to
become President of the UN General Assembly
next fall and after that he will be the
President of the European Community Council
for six months beginning January 1.
President:
That sounds like you are going to be busy.
Thorn:
I am afraid so, but the Secretary has told
me the one thing I cannot do is to take his
flat at the Waldorf the way the Algerians
did last year.
SECRET/NODIS
GERALO R FORD
SECRET/NODIS
3
President: It must be a nice feeling to do all these jobs. You
must have a big majority.
Thorn:
There are 31 votes for me and 28 in opposition but the
opposition is spread among left and right parties and
therefore it cannot bring my government down.
President: We think that your becoming the President of the UNGA
will be a fine thing. I know that it's not yet agreed.
Thorn:
We are going to have serious problems with South Africa
and Israel.
Secretary: Yes, there is going to be a tendency to try to expel
members.
President: We were very unhappy with the rulings by last year's
Algerian President.
Thorn:
Yes, they were contrary to both the letter and spirit
of the UN Charter.
Secretary: On the question of membership in the UN, we can veto a
move to expel South Africa or Israel, but the General
Assembly can refuse to let them take their seats
on a session by session vote.
Wurth:
This could mean the end of the UN.
President: As I have been saying and I will say it again, this
afternoon there should be no doubt about the determination
of this Administration to support NATO. The mood in
the Congress is now for strengthening NATO. We have been
SECRET/NODIS
GERALD LIBRARY ? FOND
SECRET/NODIS
4
through a traumatic period and in my opinion we have come
out with the wrong result but after this period of
uncertainty, I think there is a tendency now to develop
a good relationship with the Congress. This year there
has been no Mansfield Resolution and recently there was
a very good vote in the House against withdrawing
70,000 military personnel overseas. These words and
actions are encouraging. Even the Secretary's Congressman--
Tip O'Neill has now come out against unilateral with-
drawals.
Secretary: Yes, He represents the district in which Harvard is
located and he has always been against troops in Europe.
Thorn:
Some on our side, particularly during the Viet Nam war
differed with your position but now people seem to be
afraid and they don't want you to leave us. I think
we should take advantage of this move and reaffirm our
commitment to ) Europe's special relationship with the
United States. Our relationship is not only dealing with
security in the alliance. That is not positive enough.
We need more content. We are after all, 2/3 of all the
left
democracies/in the world. We have a high standard of
living and we must be able to explain to the young that
they have a future in a democratic system.
SECRET/NODIS
SECRET/NODIS
5.
Secretary: That is the sort of thinking the President will say in
his speech today.
Thorn:
I hope that you will not over-estimate the economic
problem. Our friend, Helmut Schmidt, seems very pessimistic.
You have higher unemployment than we do but on the
other hand you are less dependent on external factors
because of your large internal market. Our system
doesn't work if the international economy is not
working. Our real problem and our opportunity is
to show the next generation and the East that
democracies can solve these problems.
President: We have had to readjust our thinking about the economy.
In September 1974 we had an economic summit and
although many of the economists who attended now say
that they gave different advice, in fact, they all
put the emphasis on the inflation problem. Our rate
wasrunning at about 13 percent but this was due
mainly to increases in food and energy prices. No
one was predicting a recession, perhaps because they
were not looking far enough ahead. We are now reaching
8.9 percent unemployment. This hits the young people
very hard and particularly the blacks where unemploy-
ment is running at almost 40 percent. Even among
white youth it may be as high as 20 percent. For
LIBRARY
graduating seniors there has been a 20 percent drop
in job opportunities. But I believe that the trends
are encouraging. Our rate of inflation is now down
SECRET/NODIS
6
to 6 percent or half of what it was in September
and October of last year. By the end of this
year it should be down to 5 or 5 1/2 percent.
Unfortunately I think our unemployment may go
up to about 9 percent because there seems
to be a lag when manufacturers use their work
force for longer hours rather than hiring new
employees. But I think the upturn will bring
down unemployment very soon. Moreover, for
the first time in 5 months total employment has
risen. To sum up, 3 months ago there were no
indicators showing a better performance. Now
increasing numbers of our indicators are showing
that there is a slow upturn. I am still very
concerned about Congressional authorization
on spending. They have allowed too much spending.
If this goes on in 18 months we could have
another inflation problem despite my vetoes. We want to
stimulate the economy but not to go wild.
Thorn:
Inflation is still a serious problem.
Secretary: One of the difficulties is that there is no
theory on inflation in our modern industrialized
societies. All of the theory written in the past
dealt with recession problems and how to cope
with them.
?
SECRET/NODIS
GERALD
SECRET/NODIS
7
President: We have been encouraged by our agricultural
performance. This year there was plenty
of rain and very few drought conditions.
We may not have as big a crop as last year
in some areas but corn is up and winter wheat
which is already 80 percent harvested will be
at an all-time high. This will help our
fight against inflation.
Thorn:
I am happy to hear that because Europe needs
the stimulation of a healthy American economy.
Secretary: Why don't you tell the President how you see
European and Atlantic problems.
Thorn:
I do not see any incompatibility between our
broader alliance and a unifying Europe. Some
people seem to see dangers and fear that a
choice has to be made between these two objectives.
Part of the problem is that the French are not in
the NATO organization and they are an important
part of the EC integration. Some say that
the Americans don't like this because they fear
that the EC competes with NATO. I think that
the question of US views is sometimes used by
Europeans as an alibi when they don't want to
?
FORD
reach a European decision. They say it would
GERALD
hurt the US when in reality they don't want to
make the decision for other reasons. We consult
SECRET/NODIS
SEGRET/NODIS
8
with the United States officially and
unofficially. Of course there are pro-
and anti-US forces within Europe. We
also have some disturbing trends in The
Netherlands and Denmark where the socialists
seem to be moving in a neutralist direction.
You see a certain amount of that in Belgium
too. The French are very anxious to bring
more of the Mediterranean countries into
Europe because they feel that their influence
will be increased by the support of countries
like Greece and Spain.
Secretary: We would accept that because it would be better
for countries like Spain to have a closer
connection with Europe and for the Greeks too.
Thorn:
Schmidt told me that he would never allow the
Greeks in because it would completely upset the
Community but Genscher tells me that when
Caramanlis visited Bonn Schmidt did not take a
hard line with him. I have also found out that
Chirac told Caramanlis that they should come
into the Common Market and get away from American
domination. I fear that enlarging the Community
would dilute it and it would remain just a
customs union. By the end of the year we are
is
going to have a report from Tindemans on the
future of the Community and I will press him
GERALD
TO
SECRET/NODIS
8
to say that both the Alliance and Europe
are possible. It is fundamental to have
more European integration and that will make
the Alliance stronger. I am also deeply
disturbed about the evolution of Germany.
I think that they are moving away from the
firm connection we had established tying them
to Europe.
Secretary: Schmidt is the best leader they could have
but you are right there are disturbing trends.
For example these terrorist gangs seem to
combine German qualities of romanticism and
discipline. You don't find the same phenomenon
in France and Belgium. The Germans have a
tendency to go to extremes but Schmidt is an
outstanding leader; he is a socialist really
only by chance because he entered politics in
Hamburg and realized that he could only be
elected there if he was a socialist.
Thorn:
We know the problems of Germany very well in
my country and we speak their language. Brandt
told us that we have three to five years left
to anchor Germany in a larger democratic Europe.
Secretary: We also have to worry about East Germany.
FORD
President: Yes, I have been wondering about that.
Secretary: They are disciplined Stalinists and they have
the strongest economy in Eastern Europe.
SECRET/NODIS
10
There could be an appeal at some later date
to West Germans on a nationalist basis.
Thorn:
That is what the Poles fear and that is why
they want to keep the Soviet Union and the
United States involved in Europe. But for
the moment the FRG is stable and it has a strong
economy and military force. Other leaders in
Germany are not as strong.
President: What do you think of the CDU leaders?
Thorn:
Kohl is not really very strong and Strauss has
too many handicaps.
Secretary: Schmidt is as I said deceptive; the majority in
his party are much more to the left. If he
goes Brandt is even already more to the left.
You could have a neutralization and growth
of nationalism and a general softening. In
the CDU Kohl is not a leader.
President: Will Genscher gain strength and become more
of a factor ?
Thorn:
As you know I like his party because I am a
Liberal. The strength of the FDP helps to
keep the socialists in the middle of the road.
They use the necessity of governing with
Genscher as an alibi not to accept policies
of the left.
SECRET/NODIS
GERALO,
LIBHARY
SECRET/NODIS
14
Secretary: And Genscher is tough too.
Thorn:
To avoid these dangers with respect to
Germany, it is very important that the
European Community continue to grow and
that we not just rely on the broader
alliance. Germany still needs its anchor
to the West just as we said 30 years ago.
President: Can we talk a little bit about Portugal?
I read somewhere this morning that the AFM
is thinking of giving back the paper to the
socialists. Do you think that Soares has a
chance of coming back in? In the long run,
unless some steps are taken, I think the trends
in Portugal are very bad and there will be an.
adverse impact on NATO. To have the communists
in the Alliance changes the whole character
of the Alliance. It is a paradox that the
Alliance was created to meet the challenges
from the East and as those challenges seem less
great the barriers to communists in governments
in Western Europe are reduced. We don't like
the trends in Portugal and think that they
will have a bad effect elsewhere in Europe but
we have no answer on what to do about it.
SECRET/NODIS
LIBRARY
SECRET/NODIS
12
Thorn:
I agree with you that the trend is bad.
I come from a small country and therefore
I do not have the information that you
do but I have a feeling which is different in
the sense that while I hate the trend I do
not believe the situation is irreversible.
If we turn our backs on the AFM and the
political parties we may lose the chance of
helping the moderates. I still think there
is a chance to influence these young military
officers. I think that they are not necessarily
communists but they admire the order of the
communists. Once in power we may find a way
of separating them from the communists. This
is the view of my friends and particularly
people like Genscher.
President: We were pleased with the results of the
referendum but it seems to have little impact
on the way things are run in Portugal. Soares
has strength and we don't think the people
want communism.
Thorn:
There is a truism that if the communists
can get more than 15 percent of the vote in
any country and the opposition is split among
two or three parties, they can take over.
SECRET/NODIS
FORD LIBRARY & GERALO
SECRET/NODIS
13
Secretary: That is one of the questions -- whether
the communists will take over. The other
question is what the Alliance will be like
if one of its members has an Algerian-type
be
foreign policy. What will/the impact on
Italy and other places. The irony is that
no one would be thinking of giving aid to
Portugal if it had a Christian Democratic
government -- it is only because of the
communist challenge.
Thorn:
That is one of the weaknesses of our system.
But I agree it is a danger to have Portugal
sitting at the table in NATO. Do you think
that Goncalves is a communist?
Secretary: We have no proof. Early on I had a report
that he was but since then we have received
no confirmation. Every decision they take
seems to move in the direction of the
communists. Look at the control of the media.
Thorn:
What should we do?
Secretary: The question I am unable to answer is how
giving aid to the radicals will somehow
strengthen the moderates. Also, why does
Europe think that embracing Portugal helps
the moderates but they refuse to do the same
thing in Spain?
SECRET/NODIS
SECRET/NODIS
14
Thorn:
Spain is a very special political case
in Europe because of the history.
President: I am going to Spain and I will stress the
importance of our bilateral defense
arrangements and the contribution they
make to the defense of the Mediterranean
and the West. There are of course strong
elements in the United States that don't
like Franco but his regime should not last
much longer. We have to show that there is
an appreciation for the role Spain is playing
in order to continue to get our military
facilities. It is important, Mr. Prime Minister,
that we try to keep in contact with Spanish
leaders otherwise we may have a situation
develop as it is in Portugal. Henry, are
we meeting with those people?
Secretary: No, they felt it was wrong for a head of state
to do SO.
President: This is a slow step-by-step process but Spain
could move in a democratic direction.
Secretary: If Europe is right on Portygal they ought to
do the same thing in Spain. There is one
concrete suggestion that I talked to Cortina
a
FORD
about. He admits that they cannot get into
NATO but he wants some recognition. that the
GERALD
SECRET/NODIS
SECRET/NODIS
15
NATO uses of our bases serve Western
defense purposes. He would like an American
statement on behalf of our NATO allies
recognizing the value of our bilateral
defense relations.
Thorn:
Cortina talked to us about that and he seems
to want Europe to acknowledge this US statement.
Secretary: That was not quite clear in our conversation.
If we do not reach agreement all of the NATO-
related facilities including our submarines
and the gunnery ranges would have to be
removed.
Thorn:
This was discussed in Paris with me, the
Belgians, Norwegians and Dutch. But I don't
think it will go very far. Strangely enough
the Italians gave a firm no. Rumor said that
the Alliance should not give the impression that
it is dealing with Spain.
Secretary: I just do not understand this. There is
nothing in the Spanish situation that is imita-
table elsewhere in Europe whereas the
Portuguese problem could be repeated in Italy
and elsewhere.
Thorn:
I would like to start the process of contacts
with Spain.
SECRET/NODIS
FORD & LIBRANY OERALD
SECRET/NODIS
16
President: This could be very helpful because otherwise
in two years' time there might be something
that was less acceptable.
Thorn:
The situation in Spain is not stable.
Spanish history is full of quarrels.
Secretary: Yes, these alternated between anarchy and
autocracy.
Thorn:
I don't think it is asking too much to bring
them closer. They have very great qualities
and very bad qualities. They asked us to
help support a liberal party but do you
know that they have seven liberal parties.
President: Can we talk a little bit about CSCE and MBFR?
Thorn:
The question is how to wind up the CSCE meeting.
First Brezhnev wanted it earlier and frankly,
as far as the Europeans are concerned, if you
and the Soviets are ready SO are we.
Secretary: We do not want to be in a position where the
Europeans accuse us of giving in.
Thorn:
Chirac told me that he had been shown a
document by the Soviets proving that the
Americans had accepted in Vladivostok to have
an early summit meeting.
Secretary: That is preposterous. We carefully avoided
going further than the agreed formula that
Fl.
FORD
if the results justified we would be prepared
GERALD
LIBRARY
SECRET/NODIS
SECRET/NODIS
17
to go to the summit. The President sat
through an intermidable discussion and
refused to accept a time for the summit.
Two weeks later we were amazed to hear
that the French had agreed to the June 30
date.
Thorn:
Either Chirac is a liar or Brezhnev showed
him a false document.
Secretary: We discussed all of this at Martinique.
But when do you think a summit could take place?
Thorn:
If the Soviets make some concessions possibly
by September.
Secretary: If they make maximum concessions in the next
week I suppose it is still possible in July
but we should tell them that we are not
prepared to make any more concessions and that
it is up to the Soviets. We have moved 80 percent
of the way. I saw a cable that said that there
had been some movement in Geneva.
President: On MBFR the talks seem to be stalemated. We
had thought it might be possible to get some
US-Soviet reductions but apparently our proposal
won't fly. Therefore we are thinking of beginning
some consultations on including a nuclear element
in order to get a common ceiling and some with-
drawal of Soviet armor.
quilato a FORD LIBRAH,
SECRET/NODIS
18
Secretary: We will be introducing this in NATO soon.
If we could get rid of a Soviet tank army
and get agreement on a common ceiling perhaps
we could throw in a reduction of one thousand
nuclear warheads plus some reductions in
Pershings and F-4's. The numbers are really
unimportant; the real question is what the
implications would be of agreeing to a weapons
ceiling for the first time. We will
introduce this subject in NATO The worst
outcome would be for Europe to accept the
proposal and then say that the Americans
were undercutting the defense of Europe with
this proposal. We want you to tell us directly
in the NATO consultations what you think of
this proposal and not have any talk later about
how the Americans double-crossed Europe.
Thorn:
There is one last subject, Mr. President. I
think it would be very important for the
United States to make a strong statement in
favor of European unification after the British
referendum. This would help remove doubt about
whether you see an incompatibility between
European unification and the Alliance.
FL.
FORD
SEGRET/NODIS
GERALD
LIBRARY