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July 31, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger, Turkish Prime Minister Demirel
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1553191
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July 31, 1975 - Ford, Kissinger, Turkish Prime Minister Demirel
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Memoranda of Conversations (Nixon and Ford Administrations)
Ford Administration Memoranda of Conversations
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1975
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File scanned from the National Security Adviser's Memoranda of Conversation Collection at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
SECRET NODIS
MEMORANDUM OF CONVERSATION
DATE AND TIME: July 31, 1975, 8 a.m.
PLACE: The Ambassador's Residence,
Helsinki, Finland
SUBJECT:
PARTICIPANTS: Turkey
Prime Minister Demirel
Foreign Minister Caglayangil
Secretary General Elekdag (Foreign
Office)
Mr. Guvendiren, Deputy Director,
Cyprus Department, Foreign Office
U.S.
The President
The Secretary of State
Lt. General Scowcroft
Mr. Arthur Hartman, Assistant
Secretary for European Affairs
DISTRIBUTION:
The Secretary:
That was certainly a strange seating
arrangement at dinner last night.
Mr. Prime Minister, I want to know
what you had said to Brezhnev that
made him leave after the first course.
Demirel:
It wasn't anything I said. He was
apparently very tired but you are
right, it was a strange seating
arrangement. I noticed that you,
Mr. President, were next to Makarios.
GEN
EUR:AAHartman/gw
SECRET NODIS
EX GDS 1
DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958, Sec. 3.5
State Dept. Guidelines state Dev 3/10/04
By
, NARA, Date 5/24/04
SECRET NODIS
-2-
The Secretary:
Yes, we had actually refused to talk
to him because of some personal remarks
he had made about the President before
leaving Nicosia, but I am sure he must
have asked to sit next to the President.
Demirel:
He is now the "former" President.
The President:
What does that mean?
The Secretary:
What the Prime Minister is saying is
that he is not considered to be President
by Turkey.
Demirel:
That is right. We don't think that
there is any longer the old state of
Cyprus. That is just on paper now.
The President: Is Costa Gomes coming?
The Secretary: Yes, I understand he arrives tonight
and will speak tomorrow instead of
today. We had some report from Spanish
sources that there is some fighting
in northern Portugal near the city of
Oporto. We have not yet seen a report
from our sources.
The President:
I think the quality of the speeches
here has been quite good.
Caglayangil:
Yes.
Elekdag:
We had prepared a speech with the full
intention of not raising difficult
issues in keeping with the spirit of
this meeting but we understand that
both Caramanlis and Makarios have dif-
ferent ideas. You heard Caramanlis
yesterday and today Makarios will do
the same thing.
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Demirel:
We did not intend to start a debate
here.
Elekdag:
That was the understanding of your
staff.
Demirel:
We don't want to have any fight here.
Elekdag:
Mr. Secretary, when the two Prime
Ministers (Greek and Turkish) met in
Brussels they agreed to moderate their
public statements, and we are trying
to live up to that. The Prime Minister
was not even going to touch on the
Cyprus situation.
The Secretary:
It is interesting to me that Makarios
is now expressing a great deal more
flexibility. When he talked to the
President last night he said that he
could accept a bizonal federation and
even told the President that the
territory to be left to the Turks
could be as high as 25 percent. Perhaps
that is not high enough but it is more
than I have heard him say before.
The President:
I told him that unless there was more
give in the situation I would walk
away from the problem. I said that
25 percent was not enough.
Demirel:
Makarios is a very shrewd man. He
always comes along with a photographer.
He did that to me once and then your
photograph appears with him in the
newspaper with a statement "Mr. Makarios
had very warm talks with
"
.
The Secretary:
He must have asked the Finns to sit
next to the President.
SECRET-NODIS
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The President: You have a great friend in Wayne Hays.
Demirel:
He is not only a great friend of mine
but of Turkish-American relations.
He is an able man.
The President:
He was very helpful and he spoke
bluntly in the meetings I had with
Congressmen in support of lifting the
embargo. He had no hesitancy in
speaking but, unfortunately, we did
not get enough votes. The Secretary
and I have been talking about trying
to get some action this week. As you
may know, the day after the House vote
Senators Mansfield and Scott condemned
the action of the House as ill advised.
The Speaker told me the next day that
it was the worst vote in the 28 years
he has been in the House.
The Secretary:
Where does this leave us?
Demirel:
I told the President on May 29 what
would happen. It has been very difficult
for me to keep public pressure down.
As a matter of fact, it has been
extremely difficult to explain to
Turkish public opinion why Congress did
what it did. I have expressed great
appreciation for what you, Mr. President,
have done but it did not change the
result. Our friendly relations have
been spoiled. Since February fifth
there has been an embargo. What can
we do? I have tried not to create any
provocations. Such provocations could
easily be created. If we had a direct
conflict between us it would be easy
to define what actions we should take
and where we should stop but we have
SECRET NODIS
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-5-
no such conflict. Turk/Greek
relations are sensitive. If there
had been trouble over the last 30
years between us (US/Turkey) it
would be easier to explain. I have
always told my people that the U.S.
is a friend. Our foreign policy has
been based on friendship with the
United States. We have no direct
conflict. But if there are no spare
parts and our armed forces are affected
while Greece stays as it is, one
day there will be a serious problem
in Turk/Greek relations. For years
you have supplied arms to the Greeks
butinot for use against Turks. In
this situation the Greeks could become
more powerful and they might push us
to do "this or that." We all wish
that something could be done.
The President:
You have been very helpful in maintaining
a moderate and cooperative attitude.
Demirel:
This was not easy.
The President:
If there is to be blame I would put
it on the intransigence of a very vocal
group of Greek-American citizens who
are extremely ill advised. I can't
seem to get through to them that this
embargo is of no help to Cyprus, nor
to Greece, nor to Greek-Turkish relations,
and it weakens NATO and our own national
security. There is nothing good that
flows from the embargo.
Elekdag:
If I may, Mr. Prime Minister, I would
like to repeat what you said that our
relations with the U.S. are like an
unrequited love affair.
SECRET-NODIS
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-6-
The Secretary: We have been accused of having too
much love for Turkey.
Demirel:
What is the purpose?
The Secretary:
This is the single most senseless act
I have seen in my years in Washington.
The President: That is true of the 28 years I have
been in Washington.
Demirel:
If this somehow would save Greece
but it won't. If it could help
Cyprus, but it won't. If the U.S.
wants to see Turks and Greeks live
together peacefully, it is not helping
by this action. Our policy has never
been hostile to Greece. We want
friendly relations. We both need to
do other things and spend our resources
elsewhere. Inwant to devote my attention
to the development of my country. Turkey
is the only country in this area that
is stable and a democracy. In Iran
you have a monarchy. In the Soviet
Union and Bulgaria you have Communists.
In Syria and Iraq you have Baathists.
In Greece until "we brought Caramanlis
to power"
--
--
The Secretary:
That is what Wayne Hays said in our
meeting.
Demirel:
We are trying to bring democracy to our
people. From Japan to Turkey there
was only India but it no longer looks
very democratic.
The President: What do you think will happen to
Papadopoulos?
SECRET NODIS
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-7-
Demirel:
I don't know why Caramanlis decided
to bring them to Court.
The President:
Do you think he will send them into
exile?
Demirel:
Caramanlis probably cannot let them
go free but he will neutralize them.
The Secretary:
On some island?
Demirel:
They have 3,000 islands and they want
Cyprus too.
The President:
I have a report in this morning that
the Senate will try to attach a
lifting of the embargo to another
bill. If this happens we might be
able to get the same bill over to
the House tomorrow. We are working
on this very hard today and we are
trying to make sure that we have the
additional necessary votes. Henry,
why don't you explain the problem
with Rangel?
The Secretary:
Charlie Rangel is a black Congressman
who is very interested in seeing that
progress is made on the opium problem.
We understand that you might be thinking
of setting up a unit to coordinate your
drug control problem. If we could
write a letter that sets out what you
intend to do it would help us with
Rangel and he says that he could probably
get another ten votes for us. I want
you to understand, however, that we
appreciate very much what you have
already done on this problem.
Demirel:
Yes. This year we took very strict
measures which I think will be effective.
SECRET NODIS
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- -8-
Last year we decided to allow the
growing of poppies in seven provinces
on about 100,000 hectares. Only about
80,000 were actually planted. We have
very heavy control by police in the
area. Every field has been checked.
If more was planted than we had licensed
them, we destroyed that part of the
field and withdrew the license.
Actually in Anatolia they do not measure
their land in hectares but in a local
measure which is the equivalent of a
thousand square meters and, therefore,
we had to measure every field and there
were many complaints. We have also
checked every poppy head to be sure
that no incisions were made before the
plant was harvested. The Government
buys all the plants and we paid 20
Lira which is a very attractive price.
It amounts to about 1,000 Lira per
hectare to the farmer and we think the
program will be very successful. We
don't like to be charged with poisoning
your youth like many people have been
saying. We only produce 200 tons while
India produces a thousand tons. We
will take the harvest of the whole
plants and ship them abroad because
we have no factory yet to extract the
opium. Next year we hope to have such
a factory.
The Secretary:
We could write a letter saying this
and that yourpromise to continue your
efforts. What about this coordinating
unit?
Demirel:
There is a unit already in the Government.
The President: Could we say something positive about it?
SECRET NODIS
SECRET NODIS
-9-
Demirel:
I have taken this matter up three or
four times in my Cabinet to make sure
that the Ministers understood the
policy. This is something very important
for us.
The President:
We could say that your Cabinet Committee
has been working on this problem and
that it has been very helpful.
Demirel:
All of the plants used to be bought
by the Department of Commerce but I
have now put all of this problem in the
hands of the Minister of Agriculture and
this has been announced. He controls
and purchases all of the harvest and
I can assure you that we will do every-
thing that is necessary -- just the
best we can -- as we had promised.
The Secretary:
We could say that we talked about this
problem and sending a letter to Rangel
about it.
Demirel:
I feel that this is a very strong duty
that I have.
The President:
Isn't there a UN group that has approved
his plan? We could say that to Rangel
and, in fact, I could call him on the
telephone today. I could also tell him
that you have put this in the hands of
your Minister of Agriculture.
Demirel:
We have been advised by the UN and
helped by them to pay a good price to
the farmers. Many people suggested ten
years ago that it was not a good idea to
pressure one country but that we should
use international controls.
SECRET NODIS
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-10-
The President: After all, India is allowed to grow
poppies.
Demirel:
The area where poppies are grown is
in the central part of our country.
It used to include 20 provinces, four
of them are around one place. We do
not want to poison your youth and
I can tell you that the action I took
lost votes for me. I felt that pro-
hibition is wrong because it cannot
be controlled and it will not work
but I think our system will work.
The President:
I think you are right about control
rather than prohibition.
The Secretary:
We actually need more opiates for
medicinal purposes.
Demirel:
We have more than a thousand people
who are controlling this system.
The Secretary:
We should put that effort in our letter.
They have now shifted to the process
which involves cutting the whole plant
and shipping it off to be processed
rather than allowing the farmers to
draw the opium gum out of the poppy
head in the field. It was that opium
gum that used to find its way into
illicit traffic that went through
Marseilles on its way to New York and
other centers in the States. We think
this new process should control that
traffic.
Demirel:
The farmers used to cut a line around
the poppy heads while it was still
green and they allowed the milk to
run and they would collect it. Now
we allow no cutting by the farmers
SECRET NODIS
SECRET NODIS
-11-
but the farmers are permitted to
keep the poppy seeds while we take
the rest of the plant which contains
raw opium. This must be processed
in a factory and then made into medi-
cine. Next year we will keep it
because we will have a factory but
this year we will probably sell the
straw to Holland where the only plant
exists in Europe.
The President:
You will be building a plant over
the next year.
The Secretary: You could call Rangel at lunch time.
Independent of that problem, can we
discuss the Cyprus negotiations?
After we had a talk with Caramanlis
and I probably should not tell this
to you but I definitely had the feeling
that they want to settle this problem.
The President was very tough--he said
that we wanted their support to get
aid to Turkey. Caramanlis said that
he could control Makarios and that
maybe the U.S. should put forward a
proposal but we said we would not do
that. But what kind of settlement can
we obtain? Makarios and Caramanlis
now accept a bizonal federation.
Makarios is saying 25 percent for
territory which is more than he has
ever said to us before. Now for your
own private information Caramanlis
commented to us on the three problems-
first on refugees which depends on
the eventual territorial settlement.
On the second, on the power of the
central government, he said that he
SECRET NODIS
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-12-
would accept anything that Turkey pro-
posed. Third, on percentage of territory,
he didn't give us any specific figure
but he did say that if it is made too
high, it would not be possible for him
to live with it in Greece but he didn't
give a figure. I think a negotiation
could be attempted. It is in the security
interests of everyone. You can achieve
everything you want, as we told you in
March, if you can show some flexibility
now.
Demirel:
We will continue to do what we can and
do our best to find a solution. I told
that to Waldheim yesterday. What is to
happen now is that the dialogue between
the communities should be maintained--if
it is broken we will lose the chance for
a settlement. There are three ways to
settle the problem of Cyprus. First,
the island could be divided with Greeks
here and Turks there. Second, the island
could be divided and each part could be
annexed, one by Greece and one by Turkey
The Secretary:
Then you would get a left wing govern-
ment in Greece.
Demirel:
I am not discussing the merits of these
proposals
1
:
or, the two states on
the island could be independent and run
their own affairs. The third possibility
is a federation composed of two states.
We didn't want the second alternative
but if it is to be the third alternative,
it cannot be as it was in the 1960's.
There must be two separate self-governing
states plus a federal government.
The Secretary:
I think that the Greeks will accept this.
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-13-
Demirel:
You could start from the federal level
and agree on the functions and organi-
zation of that government. That would
beca good step. Then the two states
could discuss other questions such as
territory.
The Secretary:
Yes, but the Greeks argue that if they
agree to the bizonal and the central
government without reaching agreement
on territory at the same time they are
giving up an important point and that
is not unreasonable. I am very impressed
with the eagerness of Caramanlis to
settle this issue. The President told
Makarios that 25 percent is not enough.
Our Greeks in the U.S. are talking of
much less, like 14 percent (sic) /I
think the Secretary meant 18 percent7.
As I said, I think you can get by
negotiation all that you want now.
Demirel:
I talked to Caramanlis in May and we
agreed to set up committees to study
the problem.
The Secretary:
Suppose Congress should reverse its
action this week and then suppose that
no progress is made. The President
and I talked to more than 325 Congressmen
and he would be in a really difficult
position if no progress were made. Then
in the fall we will be driven by the
Congress to take some action. This is
a moral obligation.
The President:
My whole credibility is at stake. I
have said that I spoke to you in
Brussels and pledged to make a major
effort to lift the embargo. I said
that you had promised to make your
best effort to achieve a settlement.
They asked what the terms would be.
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-14-
I told them it was not for us to
state the terms but that I had faith
that you, Mr. Prime Minister, would
make a good effort.
The Secretary:
Caramanlis thinks there ought to be
a Demirel/Ecevit government.
Demirel:
I can tell you that that will not
happen. But this is not a matter
of different opinions among parties.
It is a very complicated case with a
long 25-year history. The Congressional
action handicaps a solution to the
Cyprus problems and harms Turkish-
American relations.
The President:
That is vitally important. We need
good American-Turkish relations.
Demirel:
I think we can solve this problem but
there are really three problems: there
is Cyprus; there is the embargo; and
US-Turkish relations. We could have
some movement but we can't start with
Cyprus. If nothing happens there wil
be many other problems.
The President:
The suggestion has been made that I
exercise on my own a waiver which would
permit me to grant $50 million's
worth of aid to Turkey. Frankly, I
have resisted this proposition because
I wanted the Congress to act. I can
also tell you that there are technical
legal arguments that I should not use
the waiver. The waiver was put into
the law four years ago and the embargo
was passed subsequently. Therefore,
some say that I am precluded from using
the waiver but others say that it is
all right. If I were to use the waiver
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-15-
would it be helpful?
Demirel:
We are not after getting something.
This is not what we want.
The President:
But wouldn't this be an affirmative
action and indicate that we want to
have good American-Turkish relations
which might undercut those who do
not wish us to have them.
Demirel:
I am not saying whether you should use
it or not. But I can say that we are
not after grant aid. Our pride is
hurt and we do not want to be given
aid. We want friendship. We know
of your great efforts but the Congress
is in doubt and it represents the
people. If they are not friendly,
my people will ask why.
The President:
I am just trying to find a solution.
Demirel:
The embargo means that you are hostile
toward Turkey. We cannot even receive
the planes we have paid for.
Caglayangil:
We are the only country in the world
subject to an embargo.
The Secretary:
You are making all the President's
arguments that he used in three break-
fasts with several hundred Congressmen
and in 50 odd telephone calls. We have
achieved some improvement in the situation
because we have moved from two thirds
against us to only 17 votes.
The President:
I have put my arm around more political
enemies in the last couple of weeks.
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-16-
Demirel:
We all do that. I know of your great
efforts, Mr. President, but the problem
is beyond us. My people have a high
honor. They are sensitive and they
feel that if the love of a friend is
lost, it can hurt and it could develop
into hatred. We want your friendship
not your aid. We cannot take aid from
a hostile country.
The President:
But you have a friendly President.
Demirel:
We shouldn't be put in this position.
We are not trying to get something.
We are only asking the question -
are we friends! If yes, then let's
behave that way. How can I explain
that friends have put an embargo on
us? First we have the embargo, then
we have the closing of the bases, and
who knows what will come next.
The President:
I think we have had a very good dis-
cussion and I want to assure you that
I will continue to do all that is
possible and I will make a maximum
effort to get this situation changed.
Demirel:
I am sure you have done your best to
save our relationship.
The Secretary:
When you leave there will be newsmen
outside. I think we ought to agree
on what each of us is going to say.
You, Mr. Prime Minister, ought to make
the point you have just made about
friendship and also say that Turkey
wants a solution. Then the President
can say that he opposed the House action
and will continue to try to get it
reversed.
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GERALD
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-17-
Demirel:
We can say that we reviewed relations
and that we are willing to make every
effort to keep our relationship.
The President:
Why don't you start and then I can
say that our relationship has been
seriously jeopardized but that I will
continue my efforts to remedy the
problem.
The Secretary:
It would be helpful if you could say
that you are trying to solve all these
problems including Cyprus.
Demirel:
I don't want to give the impression
that there is any link between our
relations with you and Cyprus. I will
say that we have reviewed relations and
that I have always believed that it
was necessary to do everything to
solve outstanding problems. We can
mention that we discussed Cyprus.
The President:
I want to thank you for being such a
good friend of the United States.
(Finished at 9:15 a.m.)
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