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This file contains materials relating to Senator Scott and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).
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People's Republic of China - State Department Telegrams: To SECSTATE - NODIS (8)
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People's Republic of China - State Department Telegrams: To SECSTATE - NODIS (8)
description
This file contains materials relating to Senator Scott and the Association of Southeast Asian Nations (ASEAN).
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Presidential Country Files for East Asia and the Pacific (Ford Administration)
East Asia and Pacific Country Files
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Angola
Taiwan
Soviet Union
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Food aid
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7
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1976
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1976-07-01
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The original documents are located in Box 15, folder "People's Republic of China - State
Department Telegrams: To SECSTATE - NODIS (8)" of the Presidential Country Files for
East Asia and the Pacific at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library.
Copyright Notice
The copyright law of the United States (Title 17, United States Code) governs the making of
photocopies or other reproductions of copyrighted material. The Council donated to the United
States of America his copyrights in all of his unpublished writings in National Archives collections.
Works prepared by U.S. Government employees as part of their official duties are in the public
domain. The copyrights to materials written by other individuals or organizations are presumed to
remain with them. If you think any of the information displayed in the PDF is subject to a valid
copyright claim, please contact the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library.
CDX
DIPARTMENT OF STATE
File Copy
Department of State
UNITED AMERICA
TELEGRAM
STATES OF
SECRET
NOD863
PAGE 01 PEKING 01282 1316242
S
41
ACTION NODS-00
ACTION COPY
INFO OCT-01 IS0-00 /001 W-
125616
0 1314307 JUL 75
Fri USLA PEKING
/
TO SECSTATE WASHDC NIACT IMMEDIATE 5955
8 E C R E 7 PEKING 1282
NOOIS
E.O. 11652: XGDS-3
TAGS: PFOR, CH, us
SUBJECT: SEN. SCOTT MEETING WITH VICE PREMIER CHANG CHUN-CHIAO
1. SUMMARY. SENATOR SCOTT'S PERSISTENCE IN PRESSING CHINESE ON TAIWAN
ISSUE, AND VICE PREMIER CHANG CHUN-CHIAD'S APPARENT MISCONSTRUAL OF
S
A REMARK BY THE SENATOR, PRODUCED A RETORT by CHANG THAT THE FLA KOULD
CUT THE "TAINAN MOOSE" OFF THE NECK OF THE U.S. IF THE U.S. DIDN'T Tran
IT OFF. CHANG ALSO VOLUNTEERED COMMENT ON RECENT
PRC MILITARY EXERCISES IN FUKIEN, END SUMMARY.
1
2. THE TAIWAM ISSUE "AS THE FOCAL POINT OF A TWO HOUR DISCUSSION
HELO THIS AFTERNOON CJULY 13) AT THE GREAT HALL OF THE
PEOPLE BY SEMATOR SCOTT AND VICE PREMIER CHANG
CHUN-CYIAU. OBVIOUSLY PRIMED IN AUVANCE (THE SUBJECT
HAD BEEN DISCUSSED AT LENGTH IN YESTEROAYIS MEETING BETWEEN SENATOR
SCOTT AND FOREIGN MINISTER CHIAO), CHANG EMPLOYED TOUGH
AND UNCOHPROMISING LANGUAGE TO DRIVE HOME HIS CENTRAL POINT:
THE CHINESE ARMY IS PREPARED TO SOLVE THE TAINAN QUESTION
BY FORCE.
DERALD
LIBRARY
3. CHANG DEVELOPED THE FOLLOWING ARGUMENT:
CHINA CANNOT CONSIDER ITSELF UNIFIED UNTIL TAIWAN IS "LIBERATED."
S
CHINA IS CURENTLY MAXING PREPARATIONS. NOTING THIS, CHANG SAID TO
SCOTT: "THIS IS NO MILITARY SECRET. THE SENATOR SURELY KNOWS THAT
IN RECENT DAYS IN FURIEN HE HAVE CONDUCTED SMALL-SCALE MILITARY
BECRET
E.O. DECLASSIFIED 12958, SEC. 3.5 State Dept Review
STATE DEPT, GUIDELINES TD 9/27/02
BY
HR, NARA, DATE: 2/7/03
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
Digitized from Box 15 of Presidential Country Files for East Asia and the Pacific at the Gerald R. Ford Presidential Library
OF STATE
Department of State
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
TELEGRAM
SECRET
PAGE 02 PEKING 01282 1316242
S
EXERCISES. TAIWAN IS VERY NERVOUS."
-THE "LIBERATION" OF TAIWAN IS CHINA'S DOMESTIC AFFAIR IN WHICH
OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE NO RIGHT TO INTERFERE.
**CHINATS HISTORICAL EXPERIENCE HAD TAUGHT IT THAT
"PEACEFUL LIBERATION" IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY AND THAT IT WAS
"MORE RELIABLE" TO SETTLE SUCH QUESTIONS AS TAINAN "THROUGH
WARFARE."
4. HUCH -- BUT NOT ALL -- OF CHANG'S SHARPNESS APPARENTLY
STEMMED FROM SCOTT'S EXPRESSED VIEW THAT "WE WILL ALL TAKE
GREAT SATISFACTION IN AN ULTIMATE PEACEFUL SOLUTION.'
CHANG ASKED SCOTT WHETHER "ULTIMATE PEACEFUL SOLUTION" REFERRED
TO US-CHINA RELATIONS OR TO "RELATIONS BETWEEN CHINA AND THE
CHIANG CHING-KUO REGIME IN TAIWAN." SCOTTIS REPLY "I SPOKE OF ThE us
AND CHINA" WAS TAKEN BY CHANG AS A THREAT, CHANG STATED "I DON'T UNDE
R -
STAND. 00 YOU THINK CHINA AND THE US SHOULD FIGHT A WAR OVER
TAIWAN? TAIWAN IS TOTALLY -A DOMESTIC ISSUE."
S
5. WHEN SCOTT PICKED UP THE ISSUE THAT CHANG SÃO ATTENPTED TO 0808
-STATING THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO ARGUE, GIVEN THE CLARITY OF
THE RESPECTIVE POSITIONS -- CHANG RETORTED: "WE ARE VERY CLEAR ON
TAIWAN. SINCE THE ISSUE OF TAIWAN HAS ARISEN, THIS IS A NOCSE
AROUND THE NECK OF THE US. IT IS IN THE INTERESTS OF THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE TO TAKE IT OFF. IF YOU DON'T, THE PLA
N
WILL CUT IT OFF. THIS WILL BE GOOD 60TH FOR THE AMERICAN
AND CHINESE PEOPLES WE ARE GENEROUS WE ARE READY TO
HELP THE us SCLVE THE PROBLEM BY OUR BAYONETS -- PERHAPS THAT
DOESN'T SOUND PLEASANT BUT THAT IS THE WAY IT IS." ASKED BY
SCOTT WHAT HE MEANT, CHANG SHOT BACK: "TO OVERTHROW THE CHIANG
CLIQUE."
6, ELSEWHERE CHANG REAFFIRMED -- AS CHIAO HAD YESTERDAY -- THE
CHINESE INSISTENCE THAT THE JAPANESE FORMULA AND ITS THREE TENETS
SERVE AS THE BASIS FOR US-PRC NORMALIZATION.
S
7. THE CUTTING NATURE OF THIS EXCHANGE CARRIED OVER INTO SUBSEQUENT
DISCUSSION OF THIRD COUNTRY ISSUES. AFTER CHANG LED OFF BY OBSERVING
THAT "IN THE INTERNATIONAL ARENA BOTH SIDES HAVE MANY POINTS IN
COMMON,' HE ACIDULOUSLY REMARKED:
"YOU DIDN'T HANOLE ANGOLA VERY BEAUTIFULLY."
SECRET
FORD LIBRARY
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
N
OF STATE
Department of State
UNITED STATES OF
TELEGRAM
SECRET
PAGE 03 PEKING 01282 131624Z
S
"""YOU MUST THINK THAT THE (SOVIET) POLAR BEAR IS HUNGRY SO YOU
FEED IT YOUR GRAIN." WHEN SCOTT RETORTED THAT SALE OF FOOD IS NOT
Ani INSTRUMENT OF FOREIGN POLICY, CHANG SAID THAT THE FOUD FOR PEACE
PROGRAM WAS JUST SUCH AN INSTRUMENT. CHANG DISPARAGED US SALE OF
GRAIN TO CHINA, SAYING THAT EVEN MAJOR US SALES WOULD "ONLY
PUT A FEW GRAINS IN EACH NICE BUWL OF CHINA'S 86% MILLIONS.'
B. FULL TEXT AND FURTHER COMMENT WILL FOLLOW BY SEPTELS.
GATES
S
S
SECRET
FORD LIBRARY &
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
CDX
DIPARTMENT Of STATE
EOB
Department
UNITED
AMERICA
TELEGRAM
STATES
OF
SECRET
NOD863
PAGE 01 PEKING 01282 131824Z
41
ACTION COPY
ACTION NODS-70
INFO OCT-01 IS0-00 1001 W.
125516
0 1314307 JUL 76
Fri USLA PEKING
TO SECSTATE WASHOC NIACT IMMEDIATE 5955
& is C R E 7 PEKING 1282
FORD is LIBRARY 07V830
NOOIS
E.O. 11652: XGDS-3
TAGS: PFOR, CH, US
SUBJECT: SEN. SCOTT MEETING WITH VICE PREMIER CHANG CHUNCHIAO
1. SUMMARY, SENATOR SCOTT'S PERSISTENCE IN PRESSING CHINESE ON TAIWAN
ISSUE, AND VICE PREMIER CHANG CHUN-CHIAO'S APPARENT MISCONSTRUAL OF
A REMARK BY THE SENATOR, PRODUCED A RETORT bY CHANG THAT THE PLA KOULD
CUT THE "TAINAN MOOSE" OFF THE NECK OF THE U.S. IF THE U.S. DIDN'T T-A-
IT OFF. CHANG ALSO VOLUNTEERED COMMENT ON RECENT
PRC MILITARY EXERCISES IN FUKIEN, END SUMMARY.
2. THE TAIWAM ISSUE "AS THE FOCAL POINT OF A TWO HOUR DISCUSSION
HELO THIS AFTERNOON (JULY 13) AT THE GREAT HOLL OF THE
PEOPLE BY SEMATOR SCOTT AND VICE PREMIER CHANG
CHUN-CYIAU, OBVIOUSLY PRIMED IN AUVANCE (THE SUBJECT
HAO BEEN DISCUSSED ^i LENGTH IN YESTERCAYIS MEETING BETWEEN SEMATOR
SCOTT AND FOREIGN MINISTER CHIAO), CHANG EMPLOYED TOUGH
AND UNCOSPROMISING LANGUAGE TO DRIVE HOME HIS CENTRAL POINT:
THE CHINESE ARMY IS PREPARED TO SOLVE THE TAIMAN QUESTION
SY FORCE.
3. CHANG DEVELOPED THE FOLLOWING ARGUMENT:
CHINA CANNOT CONSIDER ITSELF UNIFIED UNTIL TAIWAN IS "LIBERATED. "
--CHINA IS CURENTLY MAKING PREPARATIONS. NOTING THIS, CHANG SAID TO
SCOTT: "THIS IS N) MILITARY SECRET. THE SENATOR SURELY KNOWS THAT
IN RECENT DAYS IN FUKIEN HE HAVE CONDUCTED SHALL-SCALE MILITARY
BECKET
DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958, SEC. 3.5 Date Dept Review
STATE DEPT, GUIDELINES TD 9/27/02
BY
HR NARA, DATE 7/7/03
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
DEPARTMENT OF STATE
Department of State
1) AMERICA
TELEGRAM
STATES OF
SECRET
PAGE 02 PEKING 01282 1316242
EXERCISES. TAIWAN IS VERY NERVOUS."
THE "LIBERATION" OF TAIWAN IS CHINA'S DOMESTIC AFFAIR IN RHICH
OTHER COUNTRIES HAVE NO RIGHT TO INTERFERE.
CHINAIS HISTORICAL EXPERIENCE HAD TAUGHT IT THAT
"PEACEFUL LIBERATION" IS AN IMPOSSTBILITY AND THAT IT WAS
"MORE RELIABLE" TO SETTLE SUCH QUESTIONS AS TAINAN "THROUGH
HARFARE.'
A. HUCH -- BUT NOT ALL -- OF CHANG'S SHARPNESS APPARENTLY
STEMMED FROM SCOTT'S EXPRESSED VIEW THAT #WE WILL ALL TAKE
GREAT SATISFACTION IN AN ULTIMATE PEACEFUL SOLUTION. 11
CHANG ASKED SCOTT WHETHER "ULTIMATE PEACEFUL SOLUTION" REFERRED
TO US-CHINA RELATIONS OR TO "RELATIONS BETWEEN CHINA AND THE
CHIANG CHING-KUO REGIME IN TAINAN. = SCOTTIS REPLY "I SPOKE OF THE US
AND CHINA" WAS TAKEN BY CHANG AS A THREATI CHANG STATED "I DON'T UNDE
R w
STANO. 00 YOU THINK CHINA AND THE US SHOULD FIGHT A WAR OVER
TAIWAN? TAIWAN IS TOTALLY A OOMESTIC ISSUE.
5. WHEN SCOTT PICKED UP THE ISSUE THAT CHANG HAO ATTEMPTED TO 080P
STATI, G THAT THERE WAS NO NEED TO ARGUE, GIVEN THE CLARITY OF
THE RESPECTIVE POSITIONS MR CHANG RETORTED: "WE ARE VERY CLEAR ON
TAIWAN. SINCE THE ISSUE OF TAIWAN HAS ARISEN, THIS IS A NOCSE
AROUND THE NECK OF THE US. IT IS IN THE INTERESTS OF THE
AMERICAN PEOPLE TO TAKE IT OFF, IF YOU DON'T, THE PLA
WILL CUT IT OFF. THIS WILL bE G000 60TH FOR THE AMERICAN
AND CHINESE PEOPLES, WE ARE GENEROUS, WE ARE READY TO
HELP THE US SCLVE THE PROBLEM BY OUR BAYONETS -- PERHAPS THAT
DOESN'T SOUND PLEASANT BUT THAT IS THE WAY IT IS. " ASKED BY
SCOTT WHAT HE MEANT, CHANG SHOT BACK: "TO OVERTHROW THE CHIANG
CLIQUE."
6, ELSEWHERE CHANG REAFFIRMED -- AS CHIAO HAD YESTERDAY -- THE
CHINESE INSISTENCE THAT THE JAPANESE FORMULA AND ITS THREE TENETS
SERVE AS THE EASIS FOR US-PRC NORMALIZATION.
(on)
7. THE CUTTING NATURE OF THIS EXCHANGE CARRIED OVER INTO SUBSEQUENT
DISCUSSION OF THIND COUNTRY ISSUES. AFTER CHING LED OFF BY OBSERVING
THAT "IN THE INTERNATIONAL ARENA BOTH SIDES HAVE MANY POINTS ID:
COMMON, HE ACIOULCUSLY REMARKED:
FORD
"YOU DIDN'T HANOLE ANGOLA VERY BEAUTIFULLY.
SECRET
GERALD
LIBRARY
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
OF STATE
Department of State
UNITED OF AMERICA
TELEGRAM
STATES
SECRET
PAGE 03 PEKING 01282 131624Z
""YOU MUST THINK THAT THE (SOVIET) POLAR BEAR IS HUNGRY 50 YOU
FEED IT YOUR GRAIN." WHEN SCOTT RETORTED THAT SALE OF FOOD IS NOT
All INSTRUMENT OF FOREIGN POLICY, CHANG SAID THAT THE FOUD FOR FEACE
PROGRAM WAS JUST SUCH AN INSTRUMENT. CHANG DISPARAGED US SALE OF
GRAIN TO CHINA, SAYING THAT EVEN MAJOR US SALES WOULD ONLY
PUT A FEW GRAINS IN EACH NICE BUUL OF CHINA'S 869 MILLIONS. "
8, FULL TEXT AND FURTHER COMMENT WILL FOLLOW BY SEPTELS.
GATES
S
BLERLO FORD LIBRARY
SECRET
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
WH EO. 3
200-0
OF STATE
Department of State
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
TELEGRAM
SECRET
NOD980
PAGE 01 PEKING 01288 141115Z
22
ACTION NODS-00
COPY 13 OF 15 COPIES
INFO OCT-01 ISO-00 /001 W
005845
0 141007Z JUL 76
FM USLO PEKING
TO SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 5967
DECLASSIFIED
E.O. 12958 Sec. 3.6
ZODIU
SECRET PEKING 1288
MR 01-162, #37; at ltr 11/5/02
NODIS
del NARA, Date 12/6/02
E.O. 11652: XGDS-3
TAGS: PFOR CH US
SUBJECT: CHANG CHUN-CHIAD'S REMARKS ON TAIWAN
GERALD LIBRARY 7 FORD
REF: (A) PEKING 1282, (B) PEKING 1283, (C) PEKING 1278
(D) PEKING 1284
1. VICE PREMIER AND POLITBURO STANDING COMMITTEE MEMBER
CHANG CHUN-CHIAO'S REMARKS TO SENATOR SCOTT JULY 13 CON-
CERNING THE TAIWAN ISSUE (REFTELS A AND B) ARE AMONG THE
TOUGHEST MADE BY A PRC LEADER TO A U.S. OFFICIAL SINCE
NORMALIZATION BEGAN. INDEED THEY MAY BE THE TOUGHEST FOR
THEIR EMPHASIS ON MARTIAL RATHER THAN PEACEFUL MEANS OF
RESOLVING THIS ISSUE, AND FOR BEING COUPLED WITH EXPLICIT
REFERENCES TO PRC "PREPARATION" AND "SMALL-SCALE
ZODIU
EXERCISES" ON THE FUKIEN FRONT. WE KNOW FROM WASHINGTON
AND TAIPEI REPORTING THAT THESE REFERENCES HAVE SOME BASIS
IN FACT THOUGH WE DONIT THINK THEY POINT TO ANY PRESENT
THREAT TO ROC FORCES,
2, RELATIVE TOUGHNESS IS A QUESTION THE DEPARTMENT CAN
JUDGE BETTER THAN WE: THERE FOLLOW SOME OTHER COMMENTS ON THE
EXCHANGE.
3. CHANG--AND FOREIGN MINISTER CHIAO, WHO THE DAY BEFORE
HAD COMMENTED MORE MILDLY BUT STILL TESTILY (REFTELS C AND D)--
MIGHT POSSIBLY NOT HAVE ADDRESSED TAIWAN-RELATED ISSUES IF NOT
CONFRONTED WITH THEM. AT LEAST CHANG TOOK CARE TO GIVE THAT
SECRET
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
GERALD A. FORD LIBRARY
200-0
OF STATE
Department of State
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
TELEGRAM
SECRET
PAGE 02 PEKING 01288 141115Z
IMPRESSION. THOUGH CLEARLY PRIMED TO FIRE AWAY, CHANG
TWICE NOTED THAT IT WAS SCOTT WHO HAD RAISED THE TAIWAN QUESTION.
HE SAID THAT THE PRC'S POSITION WAS VERY CLEAR AND UNCHANGED.
AND IN FINALLY TURNING OFF THE DICUSSSION AFTER AN EARLIER
UNSUCCESSFUL ATTEMPT TO DO SO HE REAFFIRMED STANDARD PRC
POSITION ABOUT THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE (WE SHOULD BOTH CONTINUE
TO ACT IN ACCORDANCE WITH IT) AND ABOUT OUR HAVING POINTS IN COMMON
N
IN THE INTERNATIONAL ARENA.
4. BUT THESE MITIGATING FACTORS PALE A GOOD BIT AGAINST THE FACT
THAT WE NOW HAVE ONE OF THE REMAINING THREE OR FOUR ACTIVE
MEMBERS OF THE POLITBURO STANDING COMMITTEE AND THE PLAIS
TOP POLITICAL COMMISSAR ON RECORD WITH A POSITION THAT GIVES NO
HINT WHATEVER OF FLEXIBILITY ON THE PRC'S CONDITIONS FOR NORMALIZA-
TION AND THAT EXPLICITLY (HOWEVER UNREALISTICALLY FOR SOME YEARS
YET) THREATENS A MILITARY SOLUTION TO THE TAIWAN PROBLEM IF WE
FAIL TO MEET THOSE TERMS.
5, WHY? IT IS NONCEIVABLE, BUT ONLY JUST, THAT SOME FEATURES OF
S
THE SENATOR'S STYLE OR DETAILS OF HIS PHRASING PROMPTED CHANG TO
EXCEED HIS BRIEF, OR ELSE THAT CHANG FAILED TO REALIZE THE PROVO-
CATIVENESS OF SOME OF HIS OWN PHRASING. BUT CHANG IMPRESSED
US AS A COLD, CALCULATING AND SKILLFUL DEBATER. REGRETFULLY, WE
BELIEVE THAT CHANG KNEW JUST WHAT HE WAS SAYING AND THAT HE
PROBABLY HAD WHATEVER PRIOR CLEARANCE HE NEEDED WITHIN THE
N
LEADERSHIP FOR WHAT HE SAID. HE DISPLAYED DETAILED AWARENESS OF
THE PREVIOUS DAY'S SCOTT-CHIAO MEETING AT WHICH THE TAIWAN
ISSUE FIGURED PROMINENTLY. HE MAY HAVE HAD INTELLIGENCE THAT
O
THE VISITORS WERE STILL KEEN TO DISCUSS THE SUBJECT. IN SUM,
WE THINK HE EXPECTED THE OPPORTUNITY AND USED IT IN A CALCULATED
MANNER, TI DISPEL OR AT LEAST JAR TOO-COMPLACENT AMERICAN
D
ASSUMPTIONS THAT THE STATUS QUO IN TAIWAN IS ACCEPTABLE TO
PEKING INTO THE INDEFINITE FUTURE. THIS INTERPRETATION LEAVES
A GOOD DEAL UNEXPLAINED, BUT FROM THE CHINESE STANDPOINT,
RECENT TAIWAN-RELATED DEVELOPMENTS ALL SEEM TO POINT IN THE
SAME DIRECTION--A HARDENING OF THE U.S. POSITION AND A
CONSOLIDATION OF THE TAIWAN STATUS QUO. THESE DEVELOPMENTS
S
INCLUDE:
--THE JELLING OF AMERICAN EDITORIAL OPINION IN THE MOST
PRESTIGIOUS AND INFLUENTIAL PAPERS BEHIND THE NEED TO NORMALIZE
SECRET
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
200-0
OF STATE
Department of State
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
TELEGRAM
SECRET
PAGE 03 PEKING 01288 141115Z
WITH THE PRC WHILE PRESERVING A RELATIONSHIP WITH TAIWAN.
THE PIECES IN THE NEW YORK TIMES AND WASHINGTON POST AMONG
OTHERS STRESSED THAT TAIWAN SHOULD NOT BE "ABANDONED."
--PRESS REPORTS OF THE PRESIDENT'S REMARKS TU THE U.S. OLYMPIC
COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN IN SUPPORT OF PARTICIPATION BY TAIWAN'S
ATHLETES IN THE OLYMPIC GAMES,
--PRESS REPORTS OF THE MANSFIELD-MIYAZAWA TALKS IN TOKYO
ZODIU
CAVAILABLE IN PEKING AT THE TIME OF YESTERDAYIS MEETING) HIGH-
LIGHTED JAPANESE "SATISFACTION" AT THE CURRENT US-PRC-TAIWAN
RELATIONSHIP.
--ATTENDANCE BY SOME 40 AMERICAN SCHOLARS AT THE "FIFTH
SINO-AMERICAN CONFERENCE ON MAINLAND AFFAIRS" HELD IN TAIPEI
FROM JUNE 8-13, AND THE PUBLICITY GIVEN SOME OF THE VIEWS
STATED THERE.
SENATOR SCOTTIS ARGUMENT TO CHIAO THE DAY BEFORE THAT FURTHER
"CONDITIONING" OF AMERICAN PUBLIC OPINION WAS A PREREQUISITE
FOR AMERICAN MOVEMENT TOWARD NORMALIZATION COULD HAVE
REINFORCED THE CHINESE IMPRESSION THAT THE U.S. IS FOOT-
DRAGGING.
GATES
ZODIU
FORD & GERALO LIBRARY
SECRET
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
200-0
OF STATE
Department of State
UNITED AMERICA
TELEGRAM
STATES OF
SECRET
NOD952
PAGE 01 PEKING 01283 01 OF 05 1406392
10
ACTION NODS-00
COPY 10 OF 15 COPIES
INFO OCT-01 ISO-00 /001 W
003501
0 140100Z JUL 76
FM USLD PEKING
TO SECSTATE WASHDC IMMEDIATE 5957
SECRET SECTION 1 OF 5 PEKING 1283
E.O. DECLASSIFIED 12958, SEC. 3.5 State Review
ZODIU
STATE DEPT, GUIDELINES TD 9/27/02
NODIS
BY
HR I NARA, DATE 2/7/03
E.0.11652: XGDS3
TAGS: PFOR, CH, US
SUBJECT: VERBATIM TRANSCRIPT OF MEETING BETWEEN SENATOR SCOTT AND
VICE PREMIER CHANG CHUN-CHIAO
TIME: 3:15 PM TO 5:15 PM TUESDAY, JULY 13, 1976
PLACE: SINKIANG ROOM, GREAT HALL OF THE PEOPLE
PARTICIPANTS:
1) CHINESE:
CHANG CHUN-CHIAO, VICE PREMIER
SHIH YEN-HUA, INTERPRETER
CHOU PEI-YUAN, VICE PRESIDENT, CHINESE PEOPLE'S INSTITUTE
ZODIU
OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS (CPIFA)
WANG HAI-JUNG, VICE FOREIGN MINISTER
TANG WEN-SHENG, DEPUTY DIRECTOR, AMERICAN AND OCEANIC AFFAIRS
DEPARTMENT, FOREIGN MINISTRY
FAN KUO-HSIANG, DEPUTY DIVISION CHIEF, CPIFA
CHENG WAN-CHEN, STAFF, CPIFA
3 NOTETAKERS
2) AMERICAN:
SENATOR SCOTT
AMBASSADOR GATES
ROBERT BARNETT, DIRECTOR, ASIA SOCIETY
RICHARD QUICK, ADMINISTRATIVE ASST TO SEN, SCOTT
SECRET
FORD is LIBRARY 074878
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
200-0
OF STATE
*
Department of State
UNITED STATES OF MEMBER
TELEGRAM
SECRET
PAGE 02 PEKING 01283 01 OF 05 140639Z
TERENCE SHEA, DEPT OF STATE
CHARLES W. FREEMAN JR. DEPT OF STATE
DONALD KEYSER, USLO (NOTETAKER)
RECORD OF CONVERSATION:
N
CHANG CHUN-CHIAO: I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS THE SECOND TIME YOU HAVE
COME TO CHINA,
SENATOR SCOTT: YES, THIS IS MY SECOND TRIP TO THE PEOPLE'S
REPUBLIC OF CHINA.
CHANG: LAST TIME I HAD NO CHANCE TO MEET YOU.
SCOTT: THAT IS MY MISFORTUNE. I HAVE MET YOUR FOREIGN MINISTER, MY
MEETINGS WITH YOUR DISTINGUISHED PRIME MINISTER, MR. CHOU EN-LAI,
WERE VERY USEFUL. SENATOR MANSFIELD AND I WERE VERY HAPPY TO HAVE HAD
THAT OPPORTUNITY.
S
CHANG: PREMIER CHOU IS ALREADY DEAD. WE ALL REMEMBER HIS CONTRIBUTI
ONS
TO THE CHINESE PEOPLE AND TO THE IMPROVEMENT OF SINO-US RELATIONS.
SCOTT: OUR PARTY (MISCONSTRUED BY INTERPRETER AS REPUBLICAN PARTY)
WANTS TO EXTEND CONDOLENCES ON THE DEATH OF YOUR MR. CHU TEH.
N
CHANG: THANK YOU. IT HAS BEEN SEVERAL YEARS SINCE 1972 -- YOUR FIRST
VISIT TO CHINA. YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TO OTHER PARTS OF CHINA. HAVE YOU
SEEN ANY CHANGES IN PEKING?
SCOTT: YES, CHANGES WHICH HAVE BEEN TO THE BENEFIT OF THE PEOPLE.
D
THERE HAS BEEN IMPROVEMENT IN TRANSPORTATION. I HAVE SEEN A
COMMON DEDICATION TO YOUR SYSTEM OF SOCIETY. THERE ALSO SEEMS TO BE
MORE AWARENESS OF VISITS FROM WESTERNERS. WE FEEL THAT WE ARE
RECOGNIZED NOW. WE HAVE ALL BEEN MOVED BY THE CORDIALITY OF THE
CHINESE PEOPLE. WE ARE TOLD THAT YOU WILL CONTINUE TO MAKE GREAT
PROGRESS IN HEALTH AND EDUCATION. I'M ESPECIALLY INTERESTED IN
S
EDUCATION, ALTHOUGH THAT IS NOT MY SPECIALTY. I'M A LAWYER. I WAS TWI
CE
A TEACHER, ONCE IN THE US AND ONCE IN ENGLAND. I WAS THEREFORE
VERY INTERESTED IN AND PAID MUCH ATTENTION TO YOUR TEACHING AT PEKING
SECRET
FORD : 07687 LIBRAR
NOT TO BE REPRODUCED WITHOUT THE AUTHORIZATION OF THE EXECUTIVE SECRETARY
N
OF STATE
Department of State
UNITED OF AMERICA
TELEGRAM
STATES
SECRET
PAGE 03 PEKING 01283 01 OF 05 140639Z
S
UNIVERSITY WHICH WE HAVE VISITED. OUR VISIT TO YOUR EXCAVATIONS
TODAY HAS ALSO GIVEN US A NEW AWARENESS. WE WERE
VERY IMPRESSED BY OUR VISIT TODAY TO A MAY 7 CADRE SCHOOL.
CHANG: DID IT LOOK LIKE A CONCENTRATION CAMP? (SMILING)
SCOTT: NO, EVERYONE SEEMED BUSY AND HAPPY.
N
CHANG: THIS IS ONE OF THE IMPORTANT MEASURES TAKEN BY
THE CHINESE SINCE THE CULTURAL REVOLUTION.
SCOTT: WE ASKED IF ALL WERE VOLUNTEERS AND THEY SAID YES. WE WERE
SHOWN THE KIND OF WORK THEY DID IN BUILDING AND IN CULTIVATING
D
CROPS. YOU GROW BIGGER SQUASH THAN OURS.
CHANG: YES. SO THE MAY 7 CADRE SCHOOL IS DOING VERY WELL,
THE LAST TIME YOU CAME TO CHINA WE WERE CRITICIZING LIN PIAO,
NOW WE ARE CRITICIZING TENG DURING YOUR SECOND VISIT. SO YOU SEE
THATCWE LIKE TO STRUGGLE.
S
SCOTT: YOU HAVE YOUR CRITICISMS AND WE HAVE OURS (LAUGHTER) -- THIS I
S
PART OF OUR TWO DIFFERENT SYSTEMS.
CHANG: THERE IS GREAT DISORDER EVERYWHERE.
N
SCOTT: YES, THERE IS ALWAYS GREAT DISORDER EVERYWHERE EVEN THOUGH THE
PEOPLE PRAY FOR THE MANDATE OF HEAVEN.
CHANG: THIS IS BECAUSE OF CONTRADICTIONS.
D
SCOTT: REGARDING YOUR EARLIER QUESTION, I HAVE SEEN A SIGNIFICANT
IMPROVEMENT IN THE QUALITY AND QUANTITY OF YOUR ARTS AND CRAFTS. THER
E
APPEAR TO BE EVEN MORE THAN FOUR YEARS AGO IN YOUR STORES.
CHANG: YES, THERE HAS BEEN RELATIVELY QUICK DEVELOPMENT IN THIS
S
FIELD.
SCOTT: IN AMERICA WE ARE GREAT ADMIRERS OF CHINESE CRAFTSMANSHIP AND
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WORKS OF ART. I WAS INTERESTED IN THE RECENT DISCOVERY OF THE TOMBS
OF CHIN SHIH HUANG, WHICH IS CERTAINLY ONE OF THE MOST
SIGNIFICANT DISCOVERIES SINCE THE 1946 OPENING OF TUTANKAMEN'S
TOMB.
CHANG: THE TOMB OF CHIN SHIH HUANG HAS NOT YET BEEN EXCAVATED. THE
EXCAVATIONS ARE FROM AROUND THE TOMB.
SCOTT: THEN THERE MUST BE EVEN MORE MARVELOUS DISCOVERIES TO COME.
ZODIU
CHANG: SENATOR SCOTT IS QUITE AN EXPERT ON ASIAN CULTURAL RELICS.
SCOTT: TO BE CALLED AN EXPERT IS ONLY TO KNOW A LITTLE MORE THAN
SOMEONE ELSE. FOR MANY YEARS I'VE STUDIED CHINESE HISTORY. I KNOW
ABOUT YANG KUEI-FEI. THERE HAVE BEEN MANY INSTANCES OF STRUGGLE,
DISRUPTION, AND DIVISIVENESS WITHIN YOUR COUNTRY. STRUGGLE ALWAYS
CONTINUES.
CHANG: YES, YOU ARE RIGHT. YANG KUEI-FEI MADE NO HISTORIC
CONTRIBUTIONS BUT CHIN SHIH HUANG MADE GREAT CONTRIBUTIONS IN
HISTORY.
SCOTT: YES, SHE CYANG KUEI-FEI) WAS AS FULL OF TROUBLE AS CALORIES.
HE (CHIN SHIH HUANG) WAS KNOWN AS THE GREAT UNIFIER OF CHINA, RIGHT?
200-0
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CHANG: THE UNITY OF CHINA HAS NEVER BEEN AS CONSOLIDATED AS IT IS NOW
a
AT PRESENT ONLY TAIWAN IS NOT LIBERATED -- so WE CAN'T SAY THAT
CHINA IS TOTALLY UNIFIED.
SCOTT: BUT WITH 800 MILLION PEOPLE, I'M SURE THAT YOU HAVE ALREADY
ACHIEVED MUCH DEVELOPMENT. YOU MUST FEEL VERY PROUD AT TAKING
S
so MANY PEOPLE AND UNIFYING THEM.
WE ARE PRESENTLY IN A PERIOD OF UNCERTAINTY UNTIL NOVEMBER BECAUSE
OF THE PRESIDENTIAL CAMPAIGN. BUT AS THE NEW YORK TIMES SAID
EDITORIALLY ONLY 48 HOURS AGO, THE FOREIGN POLICY OF PRESIDENT FORD
AND GOVERNOR CARTER TOWARD ASIA ARE SUBSTANTIALLY THE SAME. BOTH
ARE COMMITTED TO THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE. NEITHER CAN MOVE
SUBSTANTIALLY NOW, AS THE VICTOR COULD DO AFTER THE ELECTION.
ZOPIN
WE HAVE HAD CHANGES OCCURRING IN OUR SYSTEM, NOTABLY DURING THE
LAST FOUR YEARS. FOR EXAMPLE, THERE HAS BEEN AN INCREASING
ASSUMPTION OF AUTHORITY -- UNDER OUR CONSTITUTION -- BY THE CONGRESS.
I WILL GIVE YOU ONE EXAMPLE WHERE I VOTED AGAINST PRESIDENT FORD.
REGARDING THE PRESIDENT'S POWER TO DECLARE WAR, HERAFTER IN THIS
KIND OF MILITARY ACTION THE PRESIDENT MUST ADVISE, CONSULT WITH,
AND GIVE REASONS FOR HIS ACTION. THEN IT COULD BE CANCELLED BY
THE CONGRESS AFTER A CERTAIN NUMBER OF DAYS. THE PRESIDENT
VETOED THIS BILL BUT CONGRESS OVERRODE IT. HEREAFTER NO PRESIDENT
CAN MOVE ALONE WITHOUT TAKING INTO CONSIDERATION THE IMPACT OF
PUBLIC OPINION AS EXPRESSED THROUGH THEIR REPRESENTATIVES IN THE
CONGRESS. WITHOUT APPROVAL OF THE CONGRESS THROUGH PRIOR
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CONSULTATION, THERE CAN BE NO ACTION BY THE PRESIDENT,
ANOTHER DEVELOPMENT IN THE SAME PERIOD OF TIME HAS MANIFESTED ITSELF.
THE CONGRESS HAS ASSUMED MORE AUTHORITY IN FOREIGN POLICY DECISIONS.
BUT IT ALSO SUPPORTS THE PRESIDENT IN HIS DESIRE FOR A STRONG NATIONAL
N
DEFENSE. IN PREVIOUS YEARS THE NATIONAL DEFENSE BUDGET WAS OFTEN
CUT 10-12 PCT BY THE CONGRESS, BUT LAST YEAR THE CONGRESS APPROVED
99.4 PCT OF THE BUDGET REQUESTED BY THE PRESIDENT. THIS INDICATES THAT
THE CONGRESS IS MORE AND MORE INTERESTED IN A STRONG NATIONAL DEFENSE
AND IS WILLING TO USE THE POWER OF APPROPRIATIONS,
I HAVE ... (NOTED) YOUR REFERENCE TO TAIWAN.
I WILL EXPLAIN WHAT SEEM TO YOU TO BE CONTRADICTIONS. OUR MOVEMENT
TOWARD IMPLEMENTATION OF NORMALIZATION DEPENDS UPON CONDITIONING OF
PUBLIC OPINION. WE MUST CONDITION THE OPINION OF PEOPLE WHO UNTIL
S
THE NIXON VISIT WERE CONDITIONED THE OTHER WAY. YOU MUST CONDITION
THE THINKING OF 800 MILLION PEOPLE. WE MUST CONDITION 200 MILLIONS'
THOUGHT FROM ONE VIEW TO ANOTHER. IN MY VIEW, IMPROVED COMMUNICATIONS
,
EXCHANGE OF KNOWLEDGE, TECHNIQUES AND SKILLS -- WE BELIEVE COMMERCE
ALSO PLAYS A ROLE -- ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO THIS PROCESS OF
CONDITIONING. AS WE CHANGE DIRECTION WE MUST CHANGE WITH THE
N
APPROVAL OF THE PEOPLE. THERE IS AN OLD FRENCH SAYING -- PERHAPS
NANCY CAN INTERPRET IT -- WHICH SAYS THAT THE PRIME MINISTER LOOKED
OUT THE WINDOW, SAW THAT MANY PEOPLE WERE MARCHING, SAID THAT
THERE ARE MY PEOPLE, I AM THEIR LEADER, I MUST HURRY TO THEIR HEAD.
WE HAVE NOTED THAT WHENEVER YOU SEND DELEGATIONS TO THE UNITED STATES
THEY ARE ALWAYS RECEIVED WITH ENTHUSIASM, IN BIG PLACES AND IN SMALL.
D
THEY ARE RECEIVED WITH WARMTH AND ENTHUSIASM. WHEN OUR PEOPLE COME
HERE THEY ALWAYS RETURN WITH GREAT PRAISE FOR THE KINDNESS AND
HOSPITALITY OF THE CHINESE PEOPLE. WE BELIEVE THAT THIS WILL CHANGE
OPINION MORE THAN WHAT A LEADER SAYS. WHEN YOUR CHINESE GYMNASTS AND
JUGGLERS CAME TO THE us, MANY AMERICAN CHILDREN BEGAN TO PICK UP
S
DISHES AND TRY TO JUGGLE THEM. IN THEIR PLAY THEY SMASHED A LOT
OF CHINA -- OF PORCELAIN. BUT EVEN THOUGH WE HAVE LOST A LOT OF
PORCELAIN WE HAVE GAINED FRIENDSHIP. WHAT OUR COUNTRY-TO-COUNTRY
RELATIONSHIP COMES DOWN TO IS THESE CHILDREN'S FUTURE.
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DO YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS? I'M WILLING TO ANSWER ANYTHING.
CHANG: SINCE YOU STARTED WITH TAIWAN, I'D ALSO LIKE TO SAY A FEW
WORDS ON THIS ISSUE. YOU HAVE SAID MUCH WHICH IS NEEDED TO CHANGE THE
DIRECTION OF THINKING, WE HAVE NOT CHANGED ON OUR SIDE. BECAUSE
THE 800 MILLION CHINESE PEOPLE ARE IN AGREEMENT ON THIS ISSUE.
ALL THE CHINESE PEOPLE WANT TO LIBERATE TAIWAN. ARE THERE THOSE
N
WHO DON'T FAVOR LIBERATION OF TAIWAN? YES, BUT THEY DON'T BELONG
TO THE CATEGORY OF "THE PEOPLE"-- THEY ARE CHIANG KAI-SHEK AND
HIS SON CHIANG CHING-KUO ELEMENTS. CHIANG KAI-SHEK FOUGHT AGAINST
Us TO HIS DEATH, BUT THE QUESTION IS STILL UNRESOLVED. THE
SENATOR KNOWS THAT BETWEEN FUKIEN AND TAIWAN THERE IS STILL
ARTILLERY FIRE.
SCOTT: I'M AWARE OF THIS. I'M ALSO AWARE -- THAT THOUGH IT IS A VERY
SMALL THING -- WE HAVE WITHDRAWN A FEW OBSERVERS FROM QUENOY AND
MATSU.
CHANG: THEY SHOULD HAVE LEFT LONG AGO. (SMILING TO HIS COLLEAGUES
PRESENT.)
SCOTT: OVER TIME THERE HAS ALREADY BEEN A SUBSTANTIAL REDUCTION. THER
E
HAVE ALREADY BEEN 4000 TROOPS WITHDRAWN. THERE HAS NOT BEEN A TOTAL
REMOVAL OF AMERICAN FORCES. BUT THAT PROCESS (OF REDUCTION) IS NOT
N
REVERSIBLE.
CHANG: AT PRESENT WE ARE STILL MAKING PREPARATIONS. THIS IS NO MILITARY
SECRET. IN RECENT DAYS IN FUKIEN WE HAVE CONDUCTED SMALL-SCALE
MILITARY EXERCISES. TAIWAN IS VERY NERVOUS.
D
SCOTT: THAT'S NEWS TO ME. THEY DON'T TELL ME ANYTHING. OUR PRESENCE
REMAINING ON TAIWAN IS ALREADY so SLENDER THAT AFTER THE ELECTION
WE WILL CONTINUE TO MOVE TOWARD YOUR VIEWS. BUT I SPEAK AS A
PRIVATE CITIZEN. I DON'T KNOW WHO WILL BE PRESIDENT.
S
CHANG: MR. SENATOR, HOW LONG DO YOU THINK THIS ISSUE WILL BE DRAGGED
ON?
HOW LONG WILL YOU DISCUSS IT AS A PRIVATE CITIZEN? OUR POSITION
IS VERY CLEAR: WE WANT TO SETTLE THE TAIWAN ISSUE BY FOLLOWING THE
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JAPANESE FORMULA WHICH HAS THREE POINTS. THEY ARE: 1) SEVERANCE
OF DIP-
LOMATIC RELATIONS WITH TAIWAN; 2) WITHDRAWAL OF ALL MILITARY
FORCES FROM TAIWANI AND 3) ABROGATION OF THE TREATY WITH TAIWAN.
N
SCOTT: I DON'T KNOW WHO WILL BE PRESIDENT, FORD OR CARTER. I WOULD EX
PECT
REASONABLE MOVEMENT AFTER THE INAUGURATION. BUT I CAN'T PREDICT,
I'M NOT A RESIDENT OF THEIR MINDS. YOUR LATER PREMIER MR. CHOU
SAID "WE ARE A PATIENT PEOPLE. = INOUR ATTEMPT TO CONDITION THE
D
OPINION OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE, WE HOPE THAT WE CAN FIND A WAY TO
ASSURE THAT THINGS DONE BY ONE LEADER CAN'T BE UNDONE BY A FUTURE
LEADER. WE WANT THIS TO BE DONE IN A PEACEFUL CONTEXT. ONLY
WHEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE BEHIND US AND ONLY WHEN AMERICAN
UNDERSTANDING OF OUR OBJECTIVES HAS UNDERGONE A MARKEDCHANGE CAN
WE ACT TO PREVENT UNDOING A POLICY BY A FUTURE LEADER. IN OUR
S
INTERNAL AFFAIRS WE DO HAVEPROBLEMS. IN A DEMOCRATIC SOCIETY THE
PROBLEM IS TO CONVINCE THE PEOPLE.
CHANG: YOU CAN'T PLACE THIS RESPONSIBILITY ON THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.
FAILURE TO SETTLE THIS ISSUE, AS THE SENATOR HAS SAID, IS NOT
IN THE INTEREST OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. THE AMERICAN AND CHINESE
PEOPLES HAVE ALWAYS BEEN FRIENDLY, IN HISTORY AND NOW. so THE
N
AMERICAN PEOPLE SHOULDN'T BE HELD RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PRESENT
STATE OF AFFAIRS.
D
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NODIS
SCOTT: I THINK THAT IS VERY GENEROUS, A VERY UNDERSTANDING STATE-
MENT. WHAT I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IN 1-2-3 YEARS IS A SITUATION WHERE
WE COULD SAY WE HAVE FINALLY WORKED OUT AN AGREEABLE SOLUTION
RATHER THAN TO HAVE THE RELATIONSHIP FOUNDER BECAUSE WE HAVE
STOPPED TRYING TO UNDERSTAND EACH OTHER. MR. BARNETT HAS WRITTEN
VERY LEARNEDLY ON THE MATTER, AS HAVE MANY OTHERS. THIS WILL
HAVE AN ULTIMATE EFFECT OF CONDITIONING THE AMERICAN PUBLIC TO
ACCEPT OUR MOVES. THERE IS A SAYING FROM "AESOP'S FABLES":
"I CAN'T SEE HOW LONG IT WILL TAKE YOU TO GET TO THE NEXT COUNTY
UNTIL I FIRST SEE HOW FAST YOU WALK."
CHANG: so THEN WE MUST WAIT AND SEE,
SCOTT: I'M AFRAID SO. BUT IN THE LONG RUN WE WILL HAVE GREAT
SATISFACTION IN AN ULTIMATE PEACEFUL SOLUTION.
200-0
CHANG: "ULTIMATE PEACEFUL SOLUTION?" (SARCASTICALLY) DOES THIS
REFER TO US-CHINA RELATIONS OR TO RELATIONS BETWEEN CHINA AND THE
CCK REGIME ON TAIWAN?
SCOTT: I SPOKE OF THE us AND CHINA. BECAUSE WE BELIEVE THAT AN
ULTIMATE SETTLEMENT IS IN THE INTERESTS OF THE PARTIES INVOLVED.
THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE DID NOT REQUIRE THAT ANY OF THESE THINGS
OCCUR AT A GIVEN HOUR OR BY A CLOCK, THESE WERE PRECONDITIONS
STATED BY THE CHINESE SIDE IN THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE. WE CANNOT
AND DO NOT ENCOURAGE ANY ADVENTURISM ON THE PART OF CHIANG CHING-
KUO. WE WOULD NOT LIKE TO SEE ANYTHING COME FROM SUCH NERVOUSNESS
AS YOU SAY EXISTS ON TAIWAN NOW,
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CHANG: I DON'T UNDERSTAND. DO YOU THINK THAT THE US AND CHINA SHOULD
FIGHT WAR OVER TAIWAN? TAIWAN IS TOTALLY OUR DOMESTIC ISSUE. THERE
IS VERY LITTLE POSSIBILITY OF A PEACEFUL SETTLEMENT. WE HAVE MUCH
EXPERIENCE IN THIS RESPECT. IT IS MORE RELIABLE TO SETTLE THIS
QUESTION THROUGH A WAR.
SCOTT: I THINK I AM BEING MISUNDERSTOOD. I AGREE THAT THE RELAT-
ZODIU
IONSHIP BETWEEN CHINA AND TAIWAN IS AN INTERNAL RELATIONSHIP. I
MYSELF HAVE FOUGHT IN TWO WARS -- BOTH TIMES ON YOUR SIDE -- AND I
THINK THAT IT IS DIFFICULT TO JUSTIFY ANY WAR. I DOUBT THAT EITHER
SIDE COULD JUSTIFY TO ITS PEOPLE GOING TO WAR FOR THIS CAUSE. I
AM EXTREMELY ANTI-WAR. I'VE BEEN SHOT AT. THIS IS THE BEST REASON
TO OPPOSE WAR. WE SHOULD SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS AFTER DISCUSSION AND
UNDERSTANDING. THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE NOT YET SAID YES OR NO TO
THE JAPANESE FORMULA. THE LAST THING THEY WOULD CONSIDER IS A WAR.
THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE A HORROR OF WAR (THE TRANSLATER RENDERED
THIS AS THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE AFRAID OF WAR). I THINK OUR
POLICY SHOULD BE AS PREMIER CHOU STATED: DON'T GO TO WAR EXCEPT
IN DEFENSE OF ONE'S TERRITORIES, EVEN HERE PEACEFUL SOLUTIONS ARE
MORE LIKELY AND MORE DESIRABLE.
CHANG: TAIWAN IS ALSO PART OF OUR TERRITORY. BUT I THINK WE HAVE
ALREADY USED UP A LOT OF TIME. THERE IS NO NEED TO ARGUE. OUR
POSITION IS VERY CLEAR AND IT IS UNCHANGED. MUCH STILL REMAINS TO
BE SEEN. THIS YEAR YOU WILL NOT SETTLE THIS ISSUE,
ZODIU
SCOTT: I CAN'T PREDICT, BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHO WILL BE PRESIDENT
OR WHO WILL BE IN CONGRESS. PERHAPS THERE WILL BE AS MANY AS 100
OR EVEN 150 NEW MEMBERS OF THE CONGRESS. WHEN YOU HAVE NEW MEMBERS
THERE ARE APT TO BE CHANGES IN POLICY. BUT NOT CHANGES so AS TO
AFFECT AMERICA'S ASIAN POLICY.
CHANG: BUT WE ARE VERY CLEAR ON TAIWAN. SINCE THE ISSUE OF TAIWAN
HAS ARISEN, THIS IS A NOOSE AROUND THE NECK OF THE us. IT IS IN
THE INTERESTS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE TO TAKE IT OFF. IF YOU DON'T,
THE PLA WILL CUT IT OFF. THIS WILL BE GOOD BOTH FOR THE AMERICAN
AND CHINESE PEOPLES. WITH REGARD TO TAIWAN, THE CHINESE PEOPLE
ARE NOT IN DEBT TO THE UNITED STATES. THE us HAS OCCUPIED TAIWAN.
WE ARE GENEROUS AND READY TO HELP THE US SOLVE THE PROBLEM BY OUR
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BAYONETS -- PERHAPS THAT DOESN'T SOUND PLEASANT BUT THAT IS THE
WAY IT IS,
SCOTT: "TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM BY OUR BAYONETS"? WHAT DOES THIS
MEAN?
CHANG: TO OVERTHROW THE CHIANG CLIQUE.
SCOTT: NO, THAT DOESN'T SOUND PLEASANT. OUR POLICY IS NOT TO
INTERFERE IN YOUR INTERNAL AFFAIR -- BUT WE STAND READY TO BACK
ZOPIU
UP OUR COMMITMENT TO TAIWAN. WE BELIEVE IT WOULD BE IN DEFAULT
OF THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE IF THERE WERE A RESORT TO ARMS. ANY
SUCH ACTION WOULD AROUSE 215 MILLION AMERICANS. I WOULD CONTINUE TO
URGE PROGRESSING ALONG THE PATH OF PEACE. WHILE WE RECOGNIZE
YOUR RIGHTS, I ASK YOU TO RECOGNIZE OUR DIFFICULTIES,
CHANG: YOU TALK ABOUT OUR RIGHTS (DISMISSING THIS WITH A WAVE OF
THE HAND). THIS YOU MUST DO. OF COURSE. IT IS OUR INTERNAL
AFFAIR AND THERE IS NO NEED TO ASK OTHERS TO RECOGNIZE OUR
RIGHTS. DID YOU KNOW THAT IN CHIANG CHING-KUO'S PRESS I AM CALLED
"BANDIT CHANG"?
SCOTT: MY PAPERS CALL ME MANY THINGS;
CHANG: THAT IS YOUR AFFAIR AND I WOULD NOT INTERFERE. HOWEVER,
I WANT TO SHOW YOU THAT OUR CIVIL WAR HAS NOT STOPPED, WE DON'T
HAVE THE EXPERIENCE THAT YOU CAN PEACEFULLY LIBERATE SOME PLACE.
FOR EXAMPLE, PEKING COULD BE SAID TO HAVE BEEN LIBERATED BY
PEACEFUL MEANS. BUT HOW WAS TIS CARRIED OUT? AT THAT TIME THE
ZODIU
WHOLE OF NORTH CHINA WAS ALREADY LIBERATED AND ONLY PEKING WAS
NOT YET LIBERATED. OUR ARMED FORCES WERE PREPARED OUTSIDE
THE CITY OF PEKING. AND EVEN OUR PEOPLE INSIDE PEKING WERE ORGANIZED
TO WELCOME THE PLA. (TURNING TO CHOU PEI-YUAN) FOR EXAMPLE,
AT PEKING UNIVERSITY MANY HAD PREPARED TO WELCOME THE PLA,
COUL PEI-YUAN: WHAT ABOUT TIENTSIN?
CHANG: NO, TIENTSIN WAS LIBERATED BY FIGHTING, so
PERHAPS THERE IS ONLY THAT KIND OF "PEACEFUL" LIBERATION, THE
KIND THAT OCCURRED IN PEKING. OUR ADVERSARY IS THE SAME. WE KNOW
THEM WELL, WE CONSIDER OUR POLICY FROM THE PRACTICAL VIEWPOINT.
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SCOTT: OUR DISCUSSIONS HAVE PRIMARILY BEEN ABOUT PEACEFUL FOR-
MULAS SUCH AS THE JAPANESE FORMULA. WE HAVE NOT DISCUSSED YOUR PRI-
MARILY INTERNAL QUESTION.
CHANG: WITH REGARD TO THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE, WE LIKEWISE HOPE THAT
IT WILL BE IMPLEMENTED. WE ARE STILL WILLING TO ACT IN ACCORDANCE
WITH IT. (RESPONDING TO A CLARIFICATION OF SEN. SCOTT'S POINT BY
ZODIU
TANG WEN-SHENG) THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE HAS NOTHING IN IT ABOUT
PEACEFUL LIBERATION.
SCOTT: I DIDN'T SAY THERE WAS. SUCH A COMMUNIQUE WOULD HARDLY
SPEAK OF WAR AS AN ALTERNATIVE TO PEACE, THIS IS YOUR CIVIL WAR,
CHANG: THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE RECOGNIZES ONLY ONE CHINA,
SCOTT: YES,
ZODIU
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CHANG: BOTH SIDES SHOULD CONTINUE TO ACT IN ACCORD WITH THE
SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE.
SCOTT: THAT IS WHAT I AM DISCUSSING. AS THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE
EVOLVES, MAY IA ASK WHAT YOU ENVISION AS THE CONTINUING RELATIONSHIP
BETWEEN CHINA AND THE us PENDING NORMALIZATION?
CHANG: NOW, ACCORDING TO CERTAIN CIRCUMSTANCES, BOTH SIDES CAN DO
MORE. BUT THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IS UNSETTLED. THAT IS TAIWAN. SO
FAR WE HAVE ONLY SPIKEN ABOUT TAIWAN. BUT IN THE INTERNATIONAL
ARENA BOTH SIDES HAVE MANY POINTS IN COMMON.
SCOTT: I'M GLAD THAT YOU HAVE MENTIONED THIS. WE BELIEVE IT
IMPORTANT TO MAINTAIN STABILITY IN EUROPE, TO HAVE A STRONG NATO,
TO HAVE A STRONG NATIONAL DEFENSE, AND TO OPPOSE HEGEMONY. I CAN
GIVE YOU AN ILLUSTRATION. ANGOLA WAS A VERY UNFORTUNATE THING.
ZODIU
THE PRESIDENT AND THE SECRETARY OF STATE WERE FRUSTRATED BY THE
UNWILLINGNESS OF CONGRESS TO SUPPORT THEIR POLICY. THESE THINGS
DO HAPPEN ZO us FROM TIME TO TIME. CONGRESS SOMETIMES DELAYS
IMPLEMENTATION OF POLICY -- THIS IS A SOURCE OF FRUSTRATION.
THE EXECUTIVE WAS OPPOSED TO THE INTERVENTION OF A SUPERPOWER,
BUT THE LEGISLATIVE BODY FEARED THAT TO SUPPORT THE PRESIDENT
MIGHT HAVE LED TO A COMMITMENT OF AMERICAN FORCES, I DIDN'T AGREE.
CHANG: IN ANGOLA, MY VIEW IS THAT YOU DIDN'T HANDLE IT VERY
BEAUTIFULLY. YOU MESSED IT UP. THE POLAR BEAR WENT TO ANGOLA.
THIS CAN EDUCATE THE AFRICAN PEOPLE.
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SCOTT: IT WAS BAD TIMING FOR THE POLAR BEAR.
CHANG: THE CLIMATE IN AFRICA IS UNSUITED TO THE POLAR BEAR. SOME DAY
HE WILL BE DRIVEN AWAY.
SCOTT: OUR VIEW IS THE SAME AS YOURS. THE PRESENCE OF THAT SUPER-
POWER AFTER A WHILE BECOMES COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND COUNTRIES WILL
N
TURN AGAINST IT.
CHANG: WELL, SINCE YOU RAN AWAY THE POLAR BEAR ENTERED. THIS WILL
EDUCATE THE AFRICAN PEOPLE. WE ARE OPTIMISTIC THAT THE AFRICAN
PEOPLE WILL SEE IT. THE CLIMATE IN THE SOUTHERN HEMISPHERE IS NOT
GOOD FOR THE POLAR BEAR.
SCOTT: WE BELIEVE THAT WE DIDN'T RUN AWAY BUT NEVER ENTERED.
CHANG: ON YOUR SIDE YOU SEEM TO THINK THAT THE POLAR BEAR IS TOO
HUNGRY so YOU FEED IT YOUR GRAIN. THIS IS VERY INTERESTING.
S
SCOTT: WE SELL OUR GRAIN TO YOU TOO.
CHANG: (WITH HEAVY IRONY) THAT IS VERY EQUAL.
SCOTT: WE BELIEVE THAT FOOD SHOULD NOT BE USED AS AN INSTRUMENT
OF FOREIGN POLICY.
CHANG: YOU HAVE THE SLOGAN = FOOD FOR PEACE." THIS IS AN INSTRU-
MENT OF FOREIGN POLICY.
ZODIU
SCOTT: YES, PEOPLE EVERYWHERE ARE DISSATISFIED WITH THEIR GOVERN-
MENT IF THEY ARE HUNGRY. WE HAVE AIDED THE HUNGRY IN MORE THAN
HALF OF THE NATIONS OF THE WORLD. IN so DOING WE HAVE MADE THE
TAXPAYER FOOT THE BILL. THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER MUST GIVE 20 TO 40
PERCENT OF HIS INCOME IN TAXES. MOST OF THESE TAXES GO TO
GIVEAWAY PROGRAMS. WE
SELL GRAIN, BUT WE ALSO GIVE MUCH AWAY AS OVER THE YEARS IN INDIA.
WE DO THIS FOR FREE. IF THIS WAS AN INSTRUMENT OF FOREIGN POLICY,
IT CERTAINLY DIDN'T WORK.
CHANG: WHAT I WAS JUST REFERRING TO WAS YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARD THE
POLAR BEAR. I DID NOT COME TODAY PREPARED TO DISCUSS YOUR FOOD
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POLICY WITH YOU. BUT I CAN MAKE SOME COMMENTS. AS FOR YOUR SALE
OF GRAIN TO CHINA, I'LL BE HONEST. THE AMOUNT SOLD TO CHINA CAN'T
PLAY MUCH ROLE. EVEN IF YOU GAVE AWAY YOUR WHOLE FOOD RESERVES
TO CHINA AND ITS 800 MILLION PEOPLE, WHAT WOULD THIS PROVE?
IN EACH BOWL WE WOULD HAVE ONLY A FEW GRAINS.
SCOTT: WE RECOGNIZE, OF COURSE, THAT CHINA IS SELF-SUSTAINING
AND ABLE TO FEED ITS PEOPLE. WE BELIEVE IN FREE TRADE AND IN A
WILLINGNESS TO BUY AND SELL WITH ALL. WHERE DISASTERS AND SERIOUS
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HUNGER HAVE OCCURRED, WE HAVE GIVEN FOOD. THE GENERAL POLICY OF
THE US IS TO BE PREPARED TO BUY AND SELL WITH ALL COUNTRIES. ONE
OF THE GREAT MIRACLES OF THE MODERN WORLD IS THAT CHINA NOT ONLY
CAN FEED ALL ITS PEOPLE BUT ALSO so OBVIOUSLY RAISE ITS STANDARD
OF LIVING -- IN VIOLENT CONTRAST TO THE ADMINISTRATION OF INDIA,
FOR EXAMPLE. so WE ADMIRE YOU.
CHANG: IT IS NOT BECAUSE THE INDIAN PEOPLE CANNOT RESOLVE THEIR
PROBLEMS BUT BECAUSE OF THEIR GOVERNMENT AND SYSTEM.
SCOTT: IN AM INCLINED TO AGREE WITH YOU. WE MIGHT HAVE DIFFERENT
SOLUTIONS FOR THE PROBLEMS OF THE SYSTEM, BUT I AGREE WITH YOU THAT
IT IS THE SYSTEM. WHAT DO YOU THINK OF CONTINUATION AND EXPAN-
SION OF TRADE RELATIONS WITH THE UNITED STATES. WE HAVE WELCOMED
AND WILL CONTINUE TO WELCOME TRADE WITH YOU.
CHANG: I'M AFRAID THAT IS IMPOSSIBLE UNDER CURRENT CIRCUMSTANCES
TO HAVE THIS (I.E. TRADE) ON A LARGE SCALE. WE THINK THAT IT IS
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ALL RIGHT TO MAINTAIN THE PRESENT STATE OF AFFAIRS. WHAT DO YOU
THINK?
SCOTT: BALANCE OF PAYMENTS HAS TO BE CONSIDERED.
CHANG: THIS IS NOT THE FACTOR. THE PRESENT POLITICAL SITUATION
HAS DECIDED THAT WE CAN ONLY MAINTAIN THE CURRENT LEVEL. I'M
AFRAID THAT THERE CAN'T BE MUCH PROGRESS BEFORE NORMALIZATION OF
RELATIONS.
SCOTT: WE STAND READY TO BOTH BUY AND SELL, WE RESPECT YOUR
JUDGMENTS.
CHANG: THIS BIG MARKET OF 800 MILLION PEOPLE PROVIDES US MUCH
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FOR
MANEUVER. WE MAINLY RELY ON OUR OWN STRENGTH TO SOLVE OUR PROBLEMS.
ANY OTHER COUNTRY WOULD FIND IT DIFFICULT TO MEET THE NEEDS OF
OUR COUNTRY. IN THE TRADE FIELD WE DEPEND ON INTERNAL TRADE. OUR
FOREIGN TRADE OCCUPIES ONLY A SMALL PERCENTAGE OF OUR TRADE. OF
COURSE WE DON'T RULE OUT THE NECESSITY TO SUPPLY EACH OTHER'S NEEDS
UNDER NECESSARY CONDITIONS.
SCOTT: WOULD IT BE APPROPRIATE FOR MR. BARNETT TO ASK A QUESTION
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REGARDING ASEAN? HE IS AN EXPERT ON ASEAN AND HAS SPENT TIME IN
THOSE COUNTRIES.
CHANG: THERE IS NOT MUCH TIME. BUT PLEASE ASK THE QUESTION.
BARNETT: I TRAVELLED THROUGH SOUTHEAST ASIA AND NOTED THE
MOVEMENT TOWARD A CONCEPT OF A ZONE OF PEACE, FREEDOM AND
NEUTRALITY. I HAVE HEARD THE SATISFACTION OF THOSE COUNTRIES THAT
THE PRC HAD GIVEN ITS SUPPORT TO THAT CONCEPT. I WOULD BE
INTERESTED IN YOUR ATTITUDE TOWARD ASEAN, PARTICULARLY TOWARD THE
CONCEPT OF NEUTRALIZATION,
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CHANG: THIS QUESTION FOREIGN MINISTER CHIAO DISCUSSED WITH YOU
YESTERDAY. BUT I WILL ANSWER YOU. CHINA SUPPORTS THEIR DESIRE
FOR NEUTRALITY AND SUPPORTS THEIR DESIRE TO EXPEL HEGEMONY. BUT
IN OUR VIEW THAT WON'T BE EASY. DON'T YOU AGREE? I HAVE NEVER
BEEN THERE MYSELF.
BARNETT: I HOPE THEY WON'T HAVE TOO MUCH DIFFICULTY IN OPPOSING
HEGEMONY. IT WILL TAKE TIME FOR REAL UNITY AND UNDERSTANDING
AMONG THEMSELVES BUT THE PROSPECTS ARE GOOD.
CHANG: YES, WHAT I SAID IS TRUE, THEY WILL HAVE DIFFICULTIES BETWEEN
THEMSELVES AND OUTSIDE FORCES MAY INTERVENE. CHINA WILL NOT
INTERVENE IN THEIR AFFAIRS.
SCOTT: WE REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME YOU HAVE GIVEN US. WE KNOW
HOW BUSY YOU ARE. I HOPE THAT YOU WILL AGREE WITH MY WISH TO CONVEY
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OUR DISCUSSIONS TO THE PRESIDENT - WHO IS ALSO MY PERSONAL FRIEND.
CHANG: I CAN'T OBJECT TO YOUR CONVEYING THESE DISCUSSIONS TO
YOUR PRESIDENT, BUT I HOPE THAT OUR DISCUSSIONS WILL NOT BE
PUBLISHED.
SCOTT: I THINK THAT WE CAN ONLY PUBLISH THAT WE HELD FRANK AND CAN-
DID DISCUSSIONS. AMONG THE SUBJECTS WE DISCUSSED WERE TAIWAN,
COMMERCE, AND SOME FOREIGN POLICY MATTERS. I DON'T WANT TO VIO-
LATE ANY CONFIDENCE.
CHANG: I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU MEAN BY "VIOLATION OF CONFIDENCE. "
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SCOTT: DISCUSSING THE SUBSTANCE OF OUR TALKS.
AMB. GATES: I'D LIKE TO SAY THAT AS YOU KNOW, MR. VICE PREMIER,
IT IS THE POLICY OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO CARRY OUT THE PRINCIPLES
OF THE SHANGHAI COMMUNIQUE. TWO PRESIDENTS HAVE STATED THIS
PUBLICLY AND PRIVATELY. ONLY THE TIMING AND FORMULA REMAIN
INDEFINITE. THE SENATOR IS A POLITICAL LEADER. ME HAS DISCUSSED
FROM THAT POINT OF VIEW. FROM OUR SIDE WHEN WE DEAL WITH TREATY
ARRANGEMENTS, THIS ULTIMATELY REQUIRES THE CONSENT OF CONGRESS.
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I THINK THAT IS WHAT THE SENATOR IS TRYING TO SAY. WHAT HE HOPES
WILL HAPPEN IS THAT A FAVORABLE CONSENSUS WILL DEVELOP. WHEN THAT
TIME COMES
....
SCOTT: WE ARE SEEKING A STRONG MAJORITY APPROVAL IN CONGRESS.
WE DO NOT WANT A ONEVOTE MAJORITY WHICH WILL THEN RESULT IN
DISPUTE.
CHANG: THIS IS THE AFFAIR OF THE UNITED STATES. BUT THE THREE CON-
DITIONS SET BY CHINA FOR NORMALIZATION OF RELATIONS SHOULD BE MET
IN THEIR ENTIRETY. ANYONE WISHING TO PREVENT THIS WILL BE HELD
RESPONSIBLE BY HISTORY.
AMB. GATES: WE UNDERSTAND YOUR POSITION. YOU HAVE MADE IT VERY
CLEAR.
CHANG: ARE YOU LEAVING TOMORROW?
SCOTT: YES -- FOR LOYANG, DAIREN, SUCHOW AND SHANGHAI.
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