Ask the Scholar

{
    "localId": "498693849",
    "label": "April 21-28, 1971 [2 of 2]",
    "core": "doc",
    "dtoType": "document",
    "citationUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/498693849"
}

{
    "id": "498693849",
    "sourceUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/498693849",
    "contentType": "document",
    "title": "April 21-28, 1971 [2 of 2]",
    "citationUrl": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/498693849",
    "collections": [
        "National Security Files (Nixon Administration)",
        "Henry A. Kissinger Telephone Conversation Transcripts (Telcons)"
    ],
    "iiifBase": "https://s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/nixon/rn-nsf/579113/Batch0002/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-09-21/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-09-21-001.jpg",
    "thumbnailUrl": "https://s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/nixon/rn-nsf/579113/Batch0002/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-09-21/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-09-21-001.jpg",
    "largeImageUrl": "https://s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/nixon/rn-nsf/579113/Batch0002/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-09-21/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-09-21-001.jpg",
    "imageCount": 36,
    "hasImages": true,
    "source": "import",
    "hasTranscription": false
}

{
    "url": "https://catalog.archives.gov/id/498693849",
    "naId": 498693849,
    "levelOfDescription": "fileUnit",
    "recordType": "description",
    "ocrSource": "nara-archive"
}

{
    "seq": 36,
    "pageIndex": 0,
    "type": "document",
    "url": "https://s3.dualstack.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/NARAprodstorage/lz/presidential-libraries/nixon/rn-nsf/579113/Batch0002/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-09-21/37-natsec-kissinger_telcons-579113-09-21.pdf",
    "mediaId": "51ac5163527c4a32",
    "ocrText": "TELCON\nAlan Ginsberg/Mr. Kissinger\n7:50 p.m., April 23, 1971\nG:\nI am calling at the request partly of Senator McCarthy. Senator\nMcCarthy told me to call you. My idea is to arrange a conversation\nbetween yourself, Helms, MoCaithy? and maybe even Nixon with\nRennie Davis, Dillinger and Abernathy. It can be done at any time.\nThey were willing to show their peaceableness and perhaps you don't\nknow how to get out of the war and who by private meeting --\nK:\nI have been meeting with many members representing peace groups\nbut what I find is that they have always then rushed right out and\ngiven the contents of the meeting to the press. But I like to do this,\nnot just for the enlightment of the people I talk to but to at least give\nme a feel of what concerned people think. I would be prepared to\nmeet in principle on a private basis.\nG:\nThat's true but it is a question of personal delicacy. In dealing\nwith human conscienceness, it is difficult to set limits.\nK:\nYou can't set limits to human conscienceness but --\nG:\nWe can try to come to some kind of understanding.\nK:\nYou can set limits to what you say publicly.\nG:\nIt would be even more funny to do it on television.\nK:\nWhat?\nG:\nIt would be even more useful if we could do it naked on television.\nK:\n(Laughter)\nG:\nIt might be too\nbut under some kind of circumstances.\nWhat shall I tell them that would be encouraging?\nK:\nThat I would think about it very seriously.\nG:\nGood deal.\nK:\nI will call Senator McCarthy. I am leaving town for a conference\nthat I have had scheduled for some time but I will be back on Monday.\nWhen did you intend to do this?\nG:\nDuring the May Day Meetings in Washington. They will be lobbying\nand they could meet with you. May 2 or 3.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAlan Ginsberg/Mr. Kissinger\n7:50 p.m., April 23, 1971 -- page 2\nK:\nMay 2nd or 3rd. Damn it! I would like to do it in principle but --\nG:\nIt is a good principle.\nK:\nNow wait a minute. I don't know about those dates, I may not be in\ntown. If not, we can do it at some other reasonable date.\nG:\nI gather you don't know how to get out of the war.\nK:\nI thought we did but we are always interested in hearing other views.\nG:\nIf you see Helms, ask him if he has begun meditating yet.\nK:\n[About what. ]\nG:\non the opium market\nLong Chin (spelled phonetically).\nHe promised to meditate one hour a day. I still have to teach him\nhow to hold his back straight.\nK:\nHow do I reach you?\nG:\nCity Lights, San Francisco.\nK:\nWhere are you calling from?\nG:\nSacramento, California I just gave a talk on gay liberation (?) to\nthe students here, and I am going to San Francisco to join the march\nthere. I will be at the following number --\nK:\nI won't be able to call you, I am leaving town. How can I reach you\nafter Monday?\nG:\nI will be there until June 15th.\nK:\nYou are not coming here?\nG:\nIf I were needed, I could arrange --\nK:\nNo, no -- I will call McCarthy.\nG:\nTalk to him, I will try to arrange a private meeting. It would be\ngood to talk to the Army too, you know the war people and the anti-war\npeople.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAlan Ginsberg/Mr. Kissinger\n7:50 p.m., April 23, 1971 -- page 3\nK:\nIt is barely conceivable that there are people who like war.\nG:\nThey might have some ideas, they have been to Hanoi.\nK:\nI will call McCarthy. If we can set it up on a basis of --\nG:\nYou may have to subject yourself to prayer.\nK:\nThat is a private matter that is permissable.\nG:\nOf course.\nK:\nOkay, I will call McCarthy.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSenator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger\n8:10 p. m., April 23, 1971\nK:\nI am sorry to disturb you.\nM:\nThat's okay.\nK:\nTalking in reference to the letter from Sihanouk, I think your reply\nis very appropriate.\nM:\nGood, I'll send it then.\nK:\nI think that would be the right thing to do.\nM:\nFor the time being.\nK:\nI have made that other contact for you that we discussed here in my\noffice. They\nreply and at any rate not that quickly.\nM:\nI will leave it that way.\nK:\nYou can always go through this channel if it doesn't work.\nM:\nThrough the French.\nK:\nThrough the French.\nM:\nI will keep that in mind.\nK:\nI want you to know we appreciate the extraordinary sense of\nresponsibility you have shown.\nM:\nThank you but I should point out that got a letter from an outfit which\nis in Santa Barbara\nfrom/for the President. There is going\nto be a meeting in Japan, I think this August. A man by the name of\nUsonna Mara (spelled phonetically) you may have heard of him --\nwho is inviting people such as Douglas, Fulbright and others and\nthey are going to attend and they think I am going to attend, although\nI don't know where they get that idea, some mainland\nand it\nis quite likely that an offer will come from them to a number of\nSenators who would be delighted to accept an offer to visit Peking.\nK:\nThere is no member of Congress we would rather see go to Peking\nthan you and whatever we can do to support it, we will do.\nM:\nThere have been at least a dozen requests for visas and more will\ncome from others too.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSenator Mansfield/Mr. Kissinger\n8:10 p.m., April 23, 1971\nK:\nI have no question that this will come from the Chinese and others\ntoo.\nM:\nFrom both sides. Okay, Henry.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nXx Jos. Alsop/Kissinger\n10:53 a. m. 4/26/71\nK: Sorry I couldn't see you on Friday.\nA: You are not free for lunch today?\nK: No.\nA: How about at the end of the day?\nK: I may be free about 30.\nA: I will turn up about 6:15. I was talking with my Israeli chums. How much\nhelp hopexto do xx you have for the interim solution.\nions\nK: I am for it but not much hope inxegotiationsx negotiators.\nA: What is your reading? Depends on how much the Russians want the Suez\nCanal opened.\nK: What their wxx alternatives are and how they are presented to them. If they\nthink we think that ????? why for half a solution. The interim\nwill make it harder.\nA: Opening the canal and keeping it open a bit. Therefore, adding to the\nSoviet power in the Persian Gulf (?) and Indian Ocean.\nK: They are in the Indian Ocean and shuttle back and forth.\nA: What's your reading of the Russian view?\nK: Good for the interim if they cannot get everything.\nA: If we won't deliver Israel on a plate.\nK: No sense in cutting off a limb of somone you will commit suicide.\nA: I agree with you. My inclination is that the Russians may go for it. ???\nK: In the right circumstances they would go for it.\nA: The opportunities in the Persian Gulf will be so big. In Sadat's interest\nto make it look a success. It's sacrificing Egypt in a most frightful manner.\nK: Don't write that.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nJ. Alsop/Kissinger\n10:53 a.m. 4/26/71\n-2-\nA: I have already.\nA:\nK: But don't repeat it. We will see about that. I will be there at 6:15. If\nI wait, I wait.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nShultz/Kissinger\nmorning\n4/26/71\nK: I can't make the DPRC at 2:15 and you have a meeting with the President.\nGiven the importance of the meeting could you slip to 3:30?\nS: I have to be on my way to NY by 4:00.\nK: Could you skip the Presidential one at 3:00 ?\nS: I hate to miss it because I have several things to report.\nK: Could you see him before 1:00?\nS: What's your time you can't make it until 2:15?\nK: It's an important meeting. The second thing I want to plead with you is\nthat you should\nthe fiscal complaints. Maybe we will be at the\n79. 6 level. If it goes further down - - I want you to hear where we willbe.\nS: My point is the overall picture. We should be ready to give the President\nthe overall alternatives for broad picture by June. One thing is a budget with\nfull employment balance with current tax system. That means squeeze on\nDefense budget this year. Maybe it will stand atx 76. My information is\nit won't. I xxxxxxxxxxx recognize we don't want to give xxxlex softening in\nour approach to that and everytime they explore it it makesx\nx leaks all over the place. If it went to 74 then a loss figure 79. 6 and 73 is not\nso difficult.\nK: But that's curious because you might argue is that you might want more in\nthe next year.\nS: They talk about stuff that builds up. I just say here are our options and we\nhave to be ready to present them.\nK: I will aks you to lead off with this problem.\nS: Our idea is to have a strong national defense.\nK: I wish tox you could hear what we are up against. I have asked my people\nfor their answers and they don't have it. They want to be paid by the newspapers\nto whom they leak. See how I build morale? They are sitting right here.\nS: The intelligence topic it seems to me should be brought to a head right\naway. It's a pithy subject and it's been too long. We should be doing something\nK: We have to get comments back.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nShultz/Kissinger\nmorning 4/26/71\n-2-\nS: Why not this week? I thought that was what they were told.\nK: They will be told.\nS: This week.\nK: Don't threaten me. You have to treat a paranoid kindly.\nS: I recognize if you tell them they will take it seriously and if I tell them\nthey will laugh.\nK: That's been my experience with Laird exactly.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nGerard Smith/Kissinger\n1:04 p. m.\n4/26/71\n(secure phone)\nS: According to your message of April 13 I am planning to be in Washington\nMay 9. Is there something especially important about that particular date?\nK: No.\nS: The only problem I have is that the Australian Govt. and\nhave for\nsometime been planning a joing Soviet/ American trip down to\nI can\n.\ntell them at the appropriate time --\nK: What day?\nS: That weekend.\nK: From our point of view it would be better in the middle of the week.\nS: That is the 11 & 12.\nK: That's right. We picked the 9th only because it's the first day the\nPresident will be back from the West Coast.\nS: We could use a little more time and I will plan to be back on the 10th. I\ncan use the time back there for homework and anytime that week will be fine.\nK: You pick the date after the 9th.\nS: I will leave on the 10th.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nDr. Billy Graham/Kissinger\n5:01 p.m.\n4/26/71\nG: I hate to bother you.\nK: I hope we can sit down together sometime soon.\nG: I am on a lengthy crusade at the University of Kentucky. I am sending you\na report today, an indepth study on VN done by friends out there. I gave two\nof the to the President\nK: I have seen them both.\nG: I wrote them about 3 weeks ago and asked if they could call me and tell me\nhow they would do it if they could do it so as to get out by the middle of nest\nyear. They have sent back an extremely indepth study. You might find some-\nthing in it. I don't want it to get lost.\nK: I look forward to seeing it and look at it with care and show it to the Presider\nG: I didn't put my name or their on it. If the missionaries out there were\nthogght to be doing it they would lose their place. We have thought of a world\nwide intelligence operationa among some of us and this is part of it. They have\ndone a real job. I will sent it this afternoon.\nK: We will hold it quiet and show it to the President.\nG: God Bless you.\nK: Hope we can get together soon.\nG: The earliest I can do it wikalx will be early in May.\nK: I will be back about the 10th.\nG: Around that time I will be free.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSen. Javits/Kissinger\n5:10 p.m.\n4/26/71\nJ: About this Erickson dinner. I gather you didn't go away.\nK: I haven't replied because I wasn't sure I will be away on holiday and I will\nbe. Our you delaying it?\nJ: Yes until the first or second week of June.\nK: Good. I am most eager to go.\nJ: I will work it out. My office will be in touch with yours on a date.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nChalmers Roberts/Kissinger\n5:20 p.m.\n4/26/71\nK: What secret information do you want now?\nR: I am reading Edgar Snow's interviw with Mao. It's fascinating in many ways\nfor one thing that Mao said the foreign ministry was thinking last Dec. of admit-\nting Americans. He goes on to imply there have been a lot of messages back\nand forth through a thrid party and the head of one European country came back\nin Dec., bypassed State, and sent directly to the WH. Who? There's only\nthe Scandinavians and French. Someone who had been here prior to Dec. and\ncame back and went to China in Jan. He further said he learned in Peiking'\nthat a (measage had been conveyed asking Peking how they would react to\nhaving a WH official go to Peking.)\nK: I love Chinese food SO much I will do anything to get there.\nR: You have been up to more hanky-panky then you have said. Edgar Snow\nis usually pretty factual. When he states this it in fact occured.\nK: I am not making any comments.\nR: I am encouraged by this as a citizen and WXIXSX also from the kind of\nreaction you have gotten in this country. It's hard to convince people that\nthe China lobby has bean dead for years.\nK: We have been moving. I am looking for the article. I haven't read it yet.\nR: Since you won't tell me who your agent is.\nK: I have the Australian Defense Minister waiting for me.\nR: He said that problems with China and the US have to be solved with Nixon.\nSnow \"couldn't settle ? ? ? ? ? ? That question had to do with Truman and\nAcheson. \" Fascinating.\nK: I can't talk about these things. So we leave it at that. Ask me something\nanalytical and I will comment.\nR: When are you coming down on the UN problem? When would you say so?\nOutloud?\nK: We will know within - -- what did Rogers say -- late spring or early summe:\nR: I had forgotten that.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELECON\nSeex Lairdx McGeorge Bundy\n4/27/71 9:05 a. m.\nB: Henry, two points: One, you already know I am sure. I was testifying\nin frong of Fulbright yesterday on the Javits bill and he tried to pull me into\nwhether members of the NSC staff should testify. He said he thought the White\nHouse staff should be available in executive session. I said I understood that\nyou had met with them. He said not with the committee.\nK: I have offered it to him three or four times now he won't accept it\nany more. He wants me to meet in a closed session in the committee room.\nBut from there to open testimony isn't a long step and then you've established\nthe pæecedent.\nB: The whole problem with him from the beginning is that substantive\ncooperation is so hard. He turns it into a procedural question. It drove the\nPresident right up the wall.\nK: He's driven this one up the wall.\nB: Well that makes two of them in a row. It's too bad. Second point:\nI don't know how much time/you have put in on Pakistan. We have some very\nskilled people on both sides. I thought I would share with you a conclusion\ndriven in to us. Pakistan is finished as a unified country. It will look as if\nWest Pakistan has reunited the country, but it won't work.\nK: That is outr conslusion too.\nB: It's not the sort of conclusion people like to hear from their best friends.\nK: But the toughest problem is what do we do from here?\nB: I agree. What we are going to try to do and our position is much\neasier than yours because you have to decide about commodities and arms\nsales but we are going to try to find a way of saying this to the people like\nAhmed.\nin the\nK: The problem we have is xxxt absence of a civil war, if things quiet down\nas they appear to have for the moment, I agree about the ultimate unmanage-\nability of the situation, but it's tough to tell a government that it will lose an\narea which is not visibly contested.\nB: That's right, and no one knows what form it will take. And of course\nthe timing is highly conditioned by what you and the bank do. If the United\nStated government says we are not able to help in an essentially military\noccupation, it will probably be somewhat shorter. But we have to know if\nWest Pakistan like\n[African nation] will pull their temples\ndown on themselves. I would want to distance myself somewhat from this\ngovernment. Because otherwise, we carry the terrible\nof making\nthis last longer.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELECON\nMcGeorge Bundy\n4/27/71 9:05 a. m. page 2\nK: What we are playing with is asking them to give us a development plan\nfor West Pakistan.\nB: Then what about the East?\nK: Provide relief but not development money.\nBut that still is a\nhalf-formed idea.\nB: We picked up a little of that from our friends at State. What about\nmilitary sales?\nK: We have looked into that. There is nothing in the pipeline right now\na few spare parts are on the way, but nothing new is scheduled for shipment\nfor six months or so. So we don't have to face that for a few months. We're\ngoing to drag our feel on implementing sales and drag out negotiations.\nB: I would be hard to talk to and lose the papers on that.\nK:\nwe can handle\nB: Access to East Pakistan for Western observers should be part of the\npackage too.\nK: On the PL-480, yes. But long-term development we haven't sorted out yet.\nB: Have you talked to McNamara about this?\nK: No, but I plan to see him this week.\nB: Their people are going to take a slightly harder line there. It would be\neasy government-to-government. But the position is easier for them to take\nif you and they understand it together. It may be most important to have a\nsingle line of communication, a ghing we don't often get in the State Department\nLike our friend Tasca and the Secretary of Commerce in Greece.\nK: A Secretary of Commerce who can't make the back pages here.\nB: It was not an unpredictable error.\nK: You can't protect yourself against what you didn't foresee.\nB: From where you sit your itinerant members of the cabinet aren't the\nmost controlable and predictable.\nK: Sometimes I find them hard to be taken seriously.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELECON\nMcGeorge Bundy\n4/27/71 9:05 a. m. page 3\nB: Well, I guess I've exhausted my wisdom on this.\nK: We are very eager to have help on factual matters and policy ideas.\nWe have it under constant review, but that doesn't help with this badly\ndivided bureaucracy.\nB: No, I am merely morally certain that the Pentagon is all a bunch of\nYahyas under the skin. And State doesn't like dealigg with the extremely\nlarge facts like a country's coming apart.\nK: And the Embassy in Dacca and the Consul in Islam abad are at\nwar with each other.\nB: That's what I figured. What is important about our people is that\nthey have taken hold of the kind of sea-change (?) phenemenon. The\nPresident should find a way to have the kind of perception of this of a\nde Gaulle or a hurchill. It's not a buæeaucratic\nepisode it's the anguish of a nation. We can't take sides. But that's\nwhat the bureaucracy will be trying to force you to do, to be a little\ncloser to the more powerful of what is in fact two separating nations.\nK: This is very helpful.\nB: I'll get you a non-memo on this. I'll send it to you. I'll wait till\nI've heard a little more from one or two of our people.\nK: Good, and I'll be easily reachable, so Iº11 read your memo while\nI'm away.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELECON\nHenry Brandon\n4/27/71 12:03pm\nB: I just wanted to get hold of you before you depart.\nK: You are coming in tomorrow at 2:00, aren't you?\nB: I didn't know that -- is that set up?\nK: Yes.\nB: Fine. I have to do this week a leader-page article on U.S. -\nChina policy. I would like to discuss it if you have time.\nK: Yes, we'll have 20 minutes or half an hour.\nB: Good/\nK: How's Muffie?\nB: At any minute\nit's hanging fire, but will probably be\ntomorrow.\nK: I hope you'll let me know when it occurs.\nB: Yes.\nK: Will it be in the papers?\nB: I think that will be the easiest, to save myself 12 dozen\ntelephone calls.\nK: Good, see you tomorrow.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAtty. Gen./Kissinger\n12:07 p.m.\n4/27/71\nanything new\nAG: Is there a on Gleason Works I can tell these people?\nK: I have looked at this thing. It was in Sat. thing. I had seen yesterday's.\nObviously they want those works because if they had easy alternatives they\nwould have taken them. We are making some progress and if it's wrapped\nup we will know. If he gives that speech I will hold onto it two more months.\nAG: Also the material is classified about the delegation coming over.\nK: Highly classified. With a delegation they can bet nothing is going to happen.\nYou can tell them it's a possibility afterwards.\nAG: Then the delegations is coming without an invitation. That's where we\nwill leave it and try to keep quiet.\nK: I would because it's close to resolution one way or the other and if it xaxisx fails\nthey can scream in June.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nJames Reston/Kissinger\n2:45 p.m.\n4/28/71\nK: I wanted to xk call you about your Sunday column which had one reference I know x\ndidn't come from you but which was a low blow and one you are reporting that I though\nI should straighten out. The first is that because of religious reasons I am restraine\nfrom M.E. policy. One can conduct foreign policy no matter what his religion.\nR: It's not a question of people in this government but in other governments.\nK: I will let that gox but the other one is the German point which I don't want to go\ninto but if you ask several of the German leaders they will confirm. I know this is\nsimply not so.\nR: My recollection was that it came from a conversation with you.\nK: That may be.\nR: You said to me that I am interested in Ost-Politik but I whixxxwk wish it had been\ndone by another country.\nK: Oh. That isn't -- yeah. That's a different problem. My view is -- I see what\nyou are getting at. I think they are two separate issues. There are problems\nwhere Ost-Politik should bring about detente from Europeans. That's true because\nother Europeans won't take £ it from the Germans. But on unification and settling\nWWII remnants it has to be done by the Germans.\nR: Obviously. I was thinking of the whole movement of Brandt Ost-Politik.\nK: I think it's a delicate problem. On the whole it isn't a key issue because it's\nonly a U. W govt. position. We have been doing our damndest, myself included,\nto bring X this policy to success including in Berlin talks and only the only way\nsince German Parlimant won't ratify.\nR: How is it doing?\nK: It's like SALTxx if it breaks the log jam it will go vast. Both positions on the\ntable and now we need ingenuity in finding it's possible. Are you going to China?\nI here you are.\nR: I don't think so. I want to. We have a policy on the TIMES of putting in -- both\nand me but I don't want to press in case it interferes with Dirter (?).\nHe has forgotten more than I'll ever know on China. I want to keep him there. They\nhave given him a month's visa. We hope to extend it month by month. I don't\nwant to get into his way.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nJ. Reston/Kissinger\n2:45 p.m.\n4/27/71\n-2-\nK: The Chinese will make those desx decisions one at a time. They have their\nown reasons.\nR: I suppose so. They tell me in Ottawa there's a queue that goes around the\nblock. Everyone and his brother is trying to get in. Some of the candidates. Other\nparty is trying to back up the Chinese vote.\nK: I don't doubt it.\nR: Lots of silly things being done.\nK: If we could have nursed it before it got public but I think they will move it at their\nown pace. They will move it.\nR: They don't want to get left out of the world.\nK: I think not. They can get into VN but the bigger issue is what you raise. If you\ngo let me know before you go.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAmb. Cromer/Kissinger\n4:59 p.m.\n4/27/71\nC: You wanted me first.\nK: I have two things. One, I am going to see you about tomorrow and we don't need\nto discuss it on the telephone. It's a 15 min. visit. The other is on that possible\ntrip of mine.\nC: I have a reply.\nK: I want to be free to take it starting on the 14th.\nC: Let me read you the message.\nK: It's not kicking all over your government, is it?\nC: No, only with the PM. \"Henry Kissinger very happy to talk with Burt Trend abo\nNSC and comparable set up in Whitehall. It would be embarrasing if it were\nat the PM initiative. A mutual working out. 11\nK: Why am I in England?\nC: To compare notes of operations on Whitehall and the NSC.\nK: That can be said?\nC: Yes.\nK: What dkix would embarras him?\nC: Only that it would be a deliberate invitation to do so. It came out of talks betwee\nthe President and PM and you and the Secy. of the Cabinet. We can dress it up\ntogether.\nK: What I need is an excuse for one or two visits.\nC: It;s what you are searching for and can be dressed to meet everyone's\npurpose. I realize the delicacy from your point of view.\nK: This is entirely business right now. I have no personal reason on this occasion.\nC: I will work on it this evening and do it tomorrow.\nK: Whatever can be publicly said and your people will support.\nC: We can do that all right. K: I think they have fixed something with your secy.\ntomorrow around 3:00.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAmb. Hilaly/Kissinger\n6:47 p.m.\n4/27/71\nH: You asked me the question as to when the thing could have left my man.\nRemember that the covering note said the answer was conveyed to me yesterday.\nK: That was the 23rd. You will make the point that he should use absolute\ndiscretion to the opposite number and we will have an anser during the week of\nthe 10th. Between the 10th and 20th.\nH: All I request to you is don't have another operation in the meanwhile.\nSomethings one has to strike the iron when it is hot.\nK: You are a good friend. I will take the advice seriously.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAmb. Hilaly/Kissinger\n6:57 p.m.\n4/27/71\nK: I was wondering whether if for the President & you could let me have\nthose communications which you have to your friend. On a personal basis.\nH: Which I read to you. OK.\nK: I will send someone for it. Then kxxx he knows everything they know.\nH: I will have a phbtocopy made and give it to you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n8:18 p. m., April 27, 1971\nP:\nI had a couple of thoughts on this. One with regard to the Bruce\nthing which seems to me may pose to them a difficult problem\nbecause of him being directly involved in the Vietnam negotiations.\nSecondly, let me think of whether there is something else -- how\nabout Nelson?\nK:\nNo.\nP:\nCan't do it, huh?\nK:\nMr. President, he wouldn't be disciplined enough, although he is\na possibility.\nP:\nIt would engulf him in a big deal and he is outside of the Government,\nyou see.\nK:\nLet me think about it, I might be able to hold him in check.\nP:\nIt is intriguing, don't you think?\nK:\nIt is intriguing.\nP:\nHow about Bush?\nK:\nAbsolutely not, he is too soft and not sophisticated enough.\nP:\nI thought of that myself.\nK:\nI thought about Richardson but he wouldn't be the right thing.\nP:\nHe is still too close to us and [I don't think it would set well with\nRogers]. Nelson -- the Chinese would consider him important and\nhe would be -- could do a lot for us interms of the domestic situation.\nNo, Nelson is a wild hair running around.\nK:\nI think for one operation I could keep him under control. To them a\nRockefeller is a tremendous thing.\nP:\nSure. Well, keep it in the back of your head.\nK:\nBush would be too weak\n.\nP:\nI thought so too but I was trying to think of somebody with a title.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n8:18 p.m., April 27, 1971 -- page 2\nK:\nNelson has possibilities.\nP:\nA possibility, yeah. Of course, that would drive State up the wall.\nK:\nHe would take someone from State along but he despises them SO much\nhe will take our direction and I would send someone from our staff to\ngo along.\nP:\nSend Haig. Really, he's really tough.\nK:\nAnd he knows Haig.\nP:\nHenry, it wouldn't have happened if you hadn't stuck to your guns.\nWe played a game and we got a little break. It was done skillfully\nand now we will wait a couple of weeks.\nK:\nWe have done it now, we have got it all hooked together; Berlin is\nhooked to SALT. Nelson might be able to do it, particularly if I\nsent Haig.\nP:\nOh, we would have to have Haig; and a State guy but not that Green\nguy.\nK:\nOh, Green could go. On foreign policy, Nelson would take my advice.\nP:\nHe would be a special envoy in a sense.\nK:\nActually, Mr. President, that's a very original idea and he's tough.\nP:\nParticularly if you get him in right at the mountain top and say look,\nit will make or break you, boy.\nK:\nOh, he would do it and I could tell him on this one. On the long\noperation he would be hard to control but on this one he would be good.\nP:\nIf Dewey were alive, he could do it.\nK:\nNelson would be better.\nP:\nBut Dewey isn't alive.\nK:\nIf you can hold on a minute, I can get you -- I have the oral note that\nthe Pakistans sent me. Here it is -- the Pakistan note to Yahya which\nYahya passed onto the Chinese that asked him (read portion of note --\nIn reply to questions from me, Mr. Kissinger said\n)\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n8:18 p.m., April 27, 1971 -- page 3\nP:\nThey opened that up on Taiwan.\nK:\nOn this ambiguous formulations could make that clear in the exchange\nand announcements.\nP:\nTheir reply is can not come over and talk about Taiwan. There is\nno limit to that because there is no meeting.\nK:\nThe difference between them and the Russians is that if your drop\nsome loose change, when you go to pick it up the Russians will step\non your fingers and the Chinese won't. I have reviewed all the\ncommunications with them and it has been on a high leve.\nP:\nYeah, they have.\nK:\nThe Russians squeeze us on every bloody move and it has just been\nstupid. They cannot trick us out of Taiwan, they have to have a\nfundamental understanding.\nP:\nPut Nelson in the back of your head. What did Haig think about this\nK:\nHe thinks it is a great diplomatic move and if we play it cooly and\ntoughly as we have until now, we can settle everything.\nP:\nHe said that.\nK:\nMr. President, I have not said this before but I think if we get this\nthing working, we will end Vietnam this year. The mere fact of\nthese contacts makes that.\nP:\nAnother thing, of course, our little problem of time. In terms of\nwanting to announce --\nK:\nWe ought to be able to announce it by the first week in June anyway.\nP:\nWe would have to if we are going to be there in June. Is SALT going\nto turn them off?\nK:\nNo, no.\nP:\nParticularly, if we are going to drag our feet with the Russians on\nthe Summit. They are fiddling around with it; well, let them fiddle.\nK:\nThey won't move fast because of the protests in this country. A more\nsophisticated analysis of the report was made by Chou en Lai.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n8:18 p. m., April 27, 1971 -- page 4\nP:\nHis analysis in effect realized what we were doing.\nK:\nA very subtle analysis of the international situation.\nP:\nWell, anyway, there is another player we can keep. Bruce is another\npossibility too. It would be quite dramatic to pull Bruce out of Paris\nand send him to Peking.\nK:\nFor that reason, they might not take him.\nP:\nIn terms of Bruce, he is our senior Ambassador and we feel he is\nthe best qualified man.\nK:\nThey would jump at Rockefeller, a high visibility one.\nP:\nVisibility and it would be enormous. Can't you just see what that\nwould do to the Libs in this country, oh, God. Rockefeller over\nthere, Jesus Christ.\nK:\nThat has great possibilities.\nP:\nHere\nis\nRockefeller he is lined up with us all the way; he has\nlined up with us on foreign policy all the way. Anyway, that is\nsomething to think about.\nK:\nThat's a good problem to have.\nP:\nIt is a good luxury to have.\nK:\nOnce this gets going -- everything is beginning to fit together.\nP:\nI hope so.\nK:\nYou will have to hold hard on Vietnam on Thursday.\nP:\nI intend to hold it hard. What's happening on the prisoners?\nK:\nI have three proposals which I am putting in writing -- they will\nrelease 1, 000, they are opening their camps and calling on the North\nVietnamese to do the same, and proposing that all prisoners be held\nin a neutral country. This should be announced by Bruce in the\nmorning --\nP:\nGood.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n8:18 p.m., April 27, 1971 -- page 5\nK:\nAnd you can hit it in the evening.\nP:\nThey might hit that play if we build it up a bit. They will all think it\nis about bugging out but it will be on prisoners.\nK:\nWe are beginning to hold the cards.\nP:\nThat's true but we are going to hold it. The demonstrators may\noverplay their hand.\nK:\nJohn Chancellor, whom I had lunch with today, thinks the tide has\nturned.\nP:\nWhat turned it?\nK:\nHe thinks what happened this week has ruined them.\nP:\nJohn Chancellor\nK:\nAbsolutely. He doesn't exactly know what you have up your sleeve\nbut\nP:\nI am not saying anything about China except that the proposals are at\na very sensitive stage and I don't intend to comment on the future and\nnext question, gentlemen.\nK:\nRight.\nP:\nI don't want to get into the proposal of a two-China policy, UN\nmembership, Taiwan and so forth. I am going to finesse all questions\nby saying that developments here are significant and I don't think the\ninterests of the nation will be served by commenting on it further.\nK:\nI think that would be the best position to take, Mr. President.\nP:\nHaig was pretty pleased.\nK:\nIf anyone had predicted that two months ago, we would have thought it\nwas inconceivable.\nP:\nYeah, yeah. After Laos --\nK:\nAfter Cambodia, the same thing --\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nThe President/Mr. Kissinger\n8:18 p. m., April 27, 1971 page 6\nP:\nYeah. But look at after Laos, the people over two to one thought it\nhad failed and yet here comes the Chinese move, the Ping Pong team\nand something more significant that pales that into nothing. It can\nnoe long\nhave an enormous significance. Well, look, Nelson S tongue made\nthat statement to Snow. How can we get the Mansfield thing turned off.\nI don't know how we can do it but one way we could do it is to invite\nhim to go along.\nK:\nNo. Why give this to him?\nP:\nHe could go along with me.\nK:\nHe can go along with you when you go.\nP:\nWe could invite Mansfield and Scott.\nK:\nIf you want to share it with the Democrats.\nP:\nShare it; the Chinese will treat them very well but they will know\nwhere the power is.\nK:\nBut they actually haven't invited anyone yet.\nP:\nCould you get a message to him?\nK:\nThink I can get some oral message to him.\nP:\nTwo weeks away and I wonder if they will move on Mansfield before\nthen.\nK:\nNo, but they may.\nP:\nAs a temporary action, can you say that the President will be in\nCalifornia and --\nK:\nI have already told them and that a constructive reply will be coming.\nP:\nIf you could add to that, that any other visits should be held in abeyance\nuntil we give our reply.\nK:\nI will get that across.\nP:\nThere will be many requests and we feel that political requests\nK:\nRight.\nP:\nGood idea\nReproduced Okay at the Henry Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nK. Right, Mr. President.\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nD. Rockefeller/Kissinger\n12:26 p.m.\n4/28/71\nR: I just wanted to call you. I was in Washington yesterday. I thought you made\na tremendous impression in Bilderburg.\nK: Aren't you nice.\nR: An important one. The Europeans had thought of you as a cold academic\ntype who was master minding things and hadn't seen the human side. It was the\nevent of the rxrexx meeting.\nK: It means a lot that you called. It was a very good meeting.\nR: High level - - Denis was brilliant.\nK: His presentation was good and SO was Ge.o. Ball.\nR: And a lot ot others. Even though I don't like what Jay said --\nK: They had to hear it.\nR: I doubt it was lopsided but it expresses views of a lot of people. I am\nterribly pleased you came andmx not a waste of your time.\nK: I got a lot out of it. That sort of formal exchange I never have time for here.\nR: It was a great success.\nK: It means a lot to me. I appreciate it.\nR: Good to see you.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nSecy. Irwin/Kissinger\n2:00 p.m.\n4/28/71\nI: Thank you for calling back. I have a couple of things.\nYou are going on vacation?\nK: If I get away.\nI: I have to testify on Monday on the end-the-war resolutions. If you are going\nto be away who would be good to check with on what formal statement I can make\nK: Haig.\nI: Second, on sugar. I just learned yesterday that things have advanced quite\nfar on the taking of 300 thousand tons of Puerto Rican sugar quota and giving\nit to domestic market where 180 thousand tons have been goingto South America.\nThere's the lesser problem of Panama, Philippines, and Malagasy. The\nmain point is the problem we will raise with the South Americans when we\ntake about 180 thousand tons. Speeches of the Secy. stressing the importance.\nK: We can't take it away from the Panamanians.\nI: I am talking generally. On Panama President\ntalked with us in\nPanamaand said he was encouraged by the President and felt he had a commit-\nment for a general increase in it. All of it effects this question which\nI\nunderstand is being worked on by Pete Peterson. All of it's pretty well along\non handing over 300 thousand tons to domestic industry.\nK: We can't do this.\nI: I heard it for the first time last night. Agriculture is also pushing this.\nTestimony by the Administration next Tues. by Agriculture and us but unless\nthere's a unified push we will be testifying opposite it forx which is bad for\nthe Administration. I am preparing a memo. Outlining our view.\nK: I am with you on it.\nI: I gather that you people are the only ones with us. I just got into it last\nnight. I am seeing Dobrynin this afternoon with a variety of things.\nK: We want to go awxx easy on MBFR.\nI: I am talking on the exhibit probelm but not too pointed and congratulating him\non his election. We are going to go ahead with peaceful nuclear talks with AEC.\nI will moderate it that we are concerned on exhibit. If I have an opportunity\nnow or later talking with Dobrynin we think it would be good to ask him about\nthe new silos and see if he has any information that he might be willing to talk\nabout. Gerry tried it. I wanted to touch base.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nIrwin/Kissinger\n2:00 p.m. 4/28/71\n-2-\nK: We have no objection to that. No SALT discussions prior to Gerry's return.\nI: No just any information that probably is unlikely. Not today.\nK: Have you met him before?\nI: Several times. Unfortunately everytime I am protesting something. Today\nbewill go on bombing I am sure. Sugar was the main thing. Testimony on the\nend of war because I think they will get into sensitive things and wanted to clear\ntestimony with the WH.\nK: I will support you on this.\nI: Have a good time if you get away. xxxxxxx When will you get back?\nK: Middle of the end of next week.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nH. Hubbard/Kissinger\n2:10 p.m.\n4/28/71\nK: What can I do for you that you can misrepresent?\nH: I don't know what you want to do for me.x In light of the Edgar Snow piece\nanything more tax you can say on the diplomatic on the ping-pong visit.\nK: I am not blaming you but twice I have given you what a prosperk persceptive\neditor could pick up and no one listens. The ping-pong thing wasn't Chou En-lai\nwaking up and thinking about America. Did you see that note which was snotty? I\nknow you were serious about it.\nH: The FBI reads our files anyway.\nK: I get a daily report.\nH: You made all sorts of suggestions on the President's efforts but many\nprivate things going on you couldn't talk about.\nK: Now that it's surfaced, I cann't go further.\nH: But there are a xbxynbxexx number of things we don't know.\nK: Obviously you don't know the secrets.\nH: On Roger's trip -- on the peace efforts and so forth you came to it late.\nK: When?\nH: Saying that you were Jewish and your efforts\nK: First part is totally untrue and I have been in it as much as anyone else in\nterms of operation.\nH: This is a subject Rogers wants for his own. Is this understating it? Bill\nis very aggressive about holding on to it and making it his issue. Just doing\nhis job?\nK: He is doing his job.\nH: He wants this real bad. Trewhitt is with him. It's interesting in terms of\nsubstance but also a play for the history books.\nK: I don't want to get into it. There are constant stories. Most of these\nthings are done cooperatively with shading here and there.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nH. Hubbard/Kissinger\n2:10 p.m.\n4/28/71\n-2-\nH: Doxyx Does he feel he can be more effective in this as opposed to SALT or\nSEA.\nK: he is in SEA as much as anyone else.\nH: So no personal (gain)?\nK: I don't feel so. How can I psychoanalize people? I love WonTon soup. Does\nthat tell you anything?\nH: If it's on the record. Going on vacation with your children?\nK: No, just a rest.\nH: The President will be there. And you will are the Secy. of State now.\nK: I will be in Palm Springs. We are equally involved with everything.\nH: This had the added virtue of being true -- that's what you always like to say.\nAll this business on Rogers making this his issue is being overplayed.\nK: I don't think so but you can find people you will say it. I am not in competition\nwith him.\nH: Is he?\nK: No.\nH: If I run with what you told me a couple of weeks ago on China --\nK: What would you say?\nH: If someone said no contact with China I would be a fool.\nK: Don't say Administration figure but if you said it I would not say Hubbard\nisn't again lieing. Don't draw any conclusions from what I don't say. It's pure\nspeculation.\nH: Maintain strict silence. Except for Henry Kissinger saying all in a private\ninterview.\nK: I could believe you will say that.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified.\nTELCON\nAmb. Dobrynin/Kissinger\n4/28/71\n5:55 p.m.\nK: I was afraid you were settling on problems with the Under Secy.\nD: I left something for us.\nK: I would miss seeing you.\nD: I would rather in order not to interfere with certain fields we discussed.\nK: I know what he raised. I have every confidence you didn't give him a\nmeaningful answer. I saw no way I could interfere and I was sure you could take\ngood care of yourself. I don't really get into the field, escept indirectly. Did\nhe get into deploymant?\nD: He doesn't matter.\nK: On Telex business, I have not been able to find out.\nD: I found the man here who knows a little bit. He knows Germany and I will\ndo it after 6:00. His knowledge and mine of the subject we will do something.\nK: You will find the words are the same with one clause missing here and there.\nD: Take the original text and compare it. I have a teletype text.\nK: I would have to make a great\n.\nD: No real need. I hope you have some real ? ? ?.\nK: If you have news call me.\nD: Only in case of necessity. I will try not to spoil your vacation.\nReproduced at the Richard Nixon Presidential Library\nDECLASSIFIED\nThis document has been reviewed pursuant to Executive Order 13526 and has been determined to be declassified."
}